ID cards
martyn dawe
interested to know how much a id cost in European countries where they
are compulsory
cryptoguy
It's a poll tax, clearly. But why are you worried about the loss of a
few pounds, when its your freedom and privacy at stake?
pt
Jette
My argument is that if they're going to be *required* within the UK
(as opposed to "useful, especially when travelling") then they should
be _supplied_ and we shouldn't have to pay for them.
(I have enough ID - I have a passport, for travelling, I have a bus
pass (with photo and my name) and I have my work ID ("government
issued" as I'm a civil servant) and I have a driving license (with
photo because I passed my test within the last 10 years) so why would
I want another one - unless it was going to replace some of the others
and mean carrying less stuff?)
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
David Harmon
cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote,
Eh? I was assuming that he was asking what is the street price?
Jette
No, he's talking about how much the government charges you for the
privilege of carrying a mandatory ID card. Gordon Brown wants us to
pay upwards of 60 quid, possibly over a hundred (the estimated price -
because as yet the ID card hasn't been introduced - keeps rising)
Cryptoengineer
> David Harmon wrote:
> > On Fri, 22 May 2009 06:34:15 -0700 (PDT) in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
> >> On May 22, 5:00 am, martyn dawe <md...@ganlin1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> there is much controversy here in the UK about ID cards, I would be
> >>> interested to know how much a id cost in European countries where they
> >>> are compulsory
> >> It's a poll tax, clearly. But why are you worried about the loss of a
> >> few pounds, when its your freedom and privacy at stake?
>
> > Eh? I was assuming that he was asking what is the street price?
>
> No, he's talking about how much the government charges you for the
> privilege of carrying a mandatory ID card. Gordon Brown wants us to
> pay upwards of 60 quid, possibly over a hundred (the estimated price -
> because as yet the ID card hasn't been introduced - keeps rising)
Maggie Thatcher tried to introduce a poll tax (aka 'Community Charge')
20 years ago, and there were literally riots in the streets.
What's happened to you guys?
pt
Jette
Maggie Thatcher.
Cryptoengineer
> Cryptoengineer wrote:
> > On May 22, 2:37 pm, Jette <bossl...@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
> >> David Harmon wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 22 May 2009 06:34:15 -0700 (PDT) in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
> >>> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote,
> >>>> On May 22, 5:00 am, martyn dawe <md...@ganlin1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>> there is much controversy here in the UK about ID cards, I would be
> >>>>> interested to know how much a id cost in European countries where they
> >>>>> are compulsory
> >>>> It's a poll tax, clearly. But why are you worried about the loss of a
> >>>> few pounds, when its your freedom and privacy at stake?
> >>> Eh? I was assuming that he was asking what is the street price?
> >> No, he's talking about how much the government charges you for the
> >> privilege of carrying a mandatory ID card. Gordon Brown wants us to
> >> pay upwards of 60 quid, possibly over a hundred (the estimated price -
> >> because as yet the ID card hasn't been introduced - keeps rising)
>
> > Maggie Thatcher tried to introduce a poll tax (aka 'Community Charge')
> > 20 years ago, and there were literally riots in the streets.
>
> > What's happened to you guys?
>
> Maggie Thatcher.
I'd have said 'New Labour', but I'm possibly getting out of my depth
here.
pt
Jette
same thing - as Bliar was a Thatcher acolyte.
Kevrob
>
> - Show quoted text -
If they're going to be required within the UK, and supplied to
individuals without charge, then who would pay for them? Are there ID
brownies who leave newly minted cards in the shoes of Home Office
bureaucrats overnight?
The objection to requiring the individual to pay the cost of the
system is the usual answer to the TANSTAAFL problem: IEYP. {I eat, you
pay}
I'm not a fan of government-mandated ID, myself.
Kevin
cryptoguy
The question is, as Jette points out, whose interest is being served?
They are being promoted as an anti-terrorism measure, but that can
only be done by using them to turn Britain into even more of a
Panopticon than it already is; a state where everything you buy, read,
say, everyplace you go, and everyone you meet can be called up at the
snap of a bureaucrat's fingers, and used against you.
We're pretty far down the road here in the States, too. But its
astonishing and disheartening to see Britain slide towards becoming
Airstrip One so *fast*.
pt
martyn dawe
I did not say I was worried about the cost nor am against a charge, I
was just wondering what charge other countries levy, I have no problem
with having to carry a official Id card.
David G. Bell
<bd0956cf-713a-4371...@u10g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>
treif...@gmail.com "cryptoguy" wrote:
About sixty quid, and designed to work with special readers which don't
seem to exist. It looks particularly incompetent.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
On the horizon, a carrier task force of the Salvation Navy was
turning into the wind, preparing to launch Zeppelins.
martyn dawe
("David G. Bell") wrote:
>On Friday, in article
> <bd0956cf-713a-4371...@u10g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>
> treif...@gmail.com "cryptoguy" wrote:
>
>> On May 22, 5:00�am, martyn dawe <md...@ganlin1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > there is much controversy here in the UK about ID cards, I would be
>> > interested to know how much a id cost in European countries where they
>> > are compulsory
>>
>> It's a poll tax, clearly. But why are you worried about the loss of a
>> few pounds, when its your freedom and privacy at stake?
>
>About sixty quid, and designed to work with special readers which don't
>seem to exist. It looks particularly incompetent.
I know what the British government say the cost will be, but what do
other countries charge
Andy Leighton
No other country has an equivalent ID card scheme.
Most of the western countries (those that I am familiar with) do not
have a shared database. In some countries (eg. Germany) there are
fairly strong privacy protections. Most countries are not trying the
level of biometrics, I think even China is reducing the amount they
want to collect, or the extent of data capture. So comparing end-user
costs, or even entire system costs (and no-one knows what that is going
to be in Britain's case), across countries is worthless - it is comparing
apples to oranges.
--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Michael Stemper
>On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:07:48 +0100, martyn dawe <md...@ganlin1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2009 10:30:04 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.org.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>>>About sixty quid, and designed to work with special readers which don't
>>>seem to exist. It looks particularly incompetent.
>>
>> I know what the British government say the cost will be, but what do
>> other countries charge
>
>No other country has an equivalent ID card scheme.
The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
Or, are you saying specifically *country*, to the exclusion of the EU?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Reunite Gondwanaland!
Paul Dormer
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >No other country has an equivalent ID card scheme.
>
> The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
> cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
> Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
> wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
>
I thought that was a bank card. But then I've never bought cigarettes
anywhere. :-)
> Or, are you saying specifically *country*, to the exclusion of the
> EU?
I think he's saying that Id cards in Germany are not equivalent to those
being planned to be introduced in the UK. The UK ones are supposed to
have more data on them, or something.
Andy Leighton
Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <h1deag$o7m$2...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>
>> >No other country has an equivalent ID card scheme.
>>
>> The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
>> cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
>> Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
>> wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
>>
> I thought that was a bank card. But then I've never bought cigarettes
> anywhere. :-)
Ta. Same here but I do think Eurokarte (or EC-Karte) is a form of
payment.
>> Or, are you saying specifically *country*, to the exclusion of the
>> EU?
>
> I think he's saying that Id cards in Germany are not equivalent to those
> being planned to be introduced in the UK. The UK ones are supposed to
> have more data on them, or something.
Absolutely. In Germany the cards do not allow a comprehensive picture
to be built up from all sources of information - for example sharing
data between various govt departments. There is no central ID card
register. There certainly wouldn't be any use by private companies
leading to audit-trails etc. They don't have the same level of
biometrics - just a photo and details of height and eye colour. It
is a basic plastic identity card not with embedded electronics*.
So it is a different type of card, without a central database, with
much less data being collected, and without data sharing. I still
don't think German style ID cards are suitable for the UK but they
are a completely different beast to what is currently being planned
by HMG.
* The Germans are introducing a new electronic card sometime this
year which preserves all their protections for the individual but
also has some biometric data. Apparently it will be able to create
a pseudonym that cannot be reconverted back into the card number for
electronic transactions.
Michael Stemper
>On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:41 +0100 (BST),
> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <h1deag$o7m$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>> >No other country has an equivalent ID card scheme.
>>>
>>> The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
>>> cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
>>> Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
>>> wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
>>>
>> I thought that was a bank card. But then I've never bought cigarettes
>> anywhere. :-)
>
>Ta. Same here but I do think Eurokarte (or EC-Karte) is a form of
>payment.
No, it's a form of proving your age. In one or two bars, I was able to
convince random strangers to allow me the use of their Karten, but still
had to feed my own money in.
>>> Or, are you saying specifically *country*, to the exclusion of the
>>> EU?
>>
>> I think he's saying that Id cards in Germany are not equivalent to those
>> being planned to be introduced in the UK. The UK ones are supposed to
>> have more data on them, or something.
Got it.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
A preposition is something that you should never end a sentence with.
Robert Sneddon
<mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
>>Ta. Same here but I do think Eurokarte (or EC-Karte) is a form of
>>payment.
>
>No, it's a form of proving your age. In one or two bars, I was able to
>convince random strangers to allow me the use of their Karten, but still
>had to feed my own money in.
The Japanese experimented recently with face-recognition software for
their cigarette-vending machines. The software was supposed to estimate
how old the person buying the cigarettes was.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7395910.stm
It was discovered that presenting a photograph of an older person to
the machine would persuade it to cough up (so to speak). The oyaji (old
guy) on the 1000yen banknote worked quite well, apparently.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
David G. Bell
<h1deag$o7m$2...@news.eternal-september.org>
mste...@walkabout.empros.com "Michael Stemper" wrote:
> The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
> cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
> Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
> wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
Looks to be some sort of payment card, or a specification for a smart-
card standard, or...
But not an ID card.
Michael Stemper
>On Thursday, in article <h1deag$o7m$2...@news.eternal-september.org> mste...@walkabout.empros.com "Michael Stemper" wrote:
>> The last few times that I've been in Germany, I've found that no
>> cigarette machine will work unless you insert your "Eurokarte".
>> Being from the US, I don't have such, which was annoying. But,
>> wouldn't this "Eurokarte" be some kind of EU, government-issued ID?
>
>Looks to be some sort of payment card, or a specification for a smart-
>card standard, or...
>
>But not an ID card.
I had the impression that it was a proof of age. It didn't seem to
be a payment card, since:
1. The machines would not accept my money unless I first inserted
(somebody else's) card.
2. After inserting a card, I still had to put in money.
3. Total strangers were willing to let me use their cards (while
remaining in sight).
Paul Dormer
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >Looks to be some sort of payment card, or a specification for a
> >smart- card standard, or...
> >
> >But not an ID card.
>
> I had the impression that it was a proof of age. It didn't seem to
> be a payment card, since:
> 1. The machines would not accept my money unless I first inserted
> (somebody else's) card.
> 2. After inserting a card, I still had to put in money.
> 3. Total strangers were willing to let me use their cards (while
> remaining in sight).
Doing a google on Eurokarte brings up lots of maps of Europe, as it can
mean Euro map.
There is no EU-wide ID card that I know of. We don't have one in the UK,
and we're in the EU.
It seems a bit bizarre that someone should introduce an ID card which is
so similar to the name of a bank card. Imagine the confusion if an ID
card was introduced in the US called American Express.
Andy Leighton
The German ID card is referred to ausweiskarte or just ausweis. From
further research a Eurokarte is a payment card and if you had a
Mastercard it would have been accepted in the machine. Presumably it
was just checking card validity to ascertain age. Germany is a far more
credit-averse country than Britain or the US and it would surprise me to
see posession of a Eurocard standing in for age verification.
Paul Dormer
(Andy Leighton) wrote:
> Presumably it
> was just checking card validity to ascertain age. Germany is a far
more
> credit-averse country than Britain or the US and it would surprise me
to
> see posession of a Eurocard standing in for age verification.
Is there a "not" missing in that last sentence?
Dorothy J Heydt
Or, to put it the other way around, no country is as
credit-card-happy as the US.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Andy Leighton
Umm yes. Would should read wouldn't.
Paul Dormer
Heydt) wrote:
>
> >The German ID card is referred to ausweiskarte or just ausweis. From
> >further research a Eurokarte is a payment card and if you had a
> >Mastercard it would have been accepted in the machine. Presumably it
> >was just checking card validity to ascertain age. Germany is a far
> >more credit-averse country than Britain or the US and it would
> >surprise me to see posession of a Eurocard standing in for age
> >verification.
>
> Or, to put it the other way around, no country is as
> credit-card-happy as the US.
I don't know. I think the UK probably gives it a close run for its
money.
What did surprise me was buying some books in Borders in San Francisco
last year, tendering my credit card, and not being required to sign
anything or enter a PIN. Apparently, they have a limit below which this
isn't necessary.
I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US. Over here,
signing hasn't been used for about five years. I ate in a restaurant
yesterday and paid by card and the waiter brought over a radio-controlled
PIN machine so that I could pay. I remember when PINs were first being
introduced eating in a restaurant and the PIN machine was on the end of a
long wire which stretched across the restaurant to my table. Fortunately,
it wasn't a large restaurant. :-)
David Friedman
p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Kip Williams
> In article <memo.2009062...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk>,
> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>
>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
>
> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
They're all the rage with debit cards, though.
Kip W
Keith F. Lynch
> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
pay for groceries.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Harmon
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote,
>David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
>
>> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
>
>I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
>pay for groceries.
Unlikely. Probably a debit card instead.
Ben Yalow
In the US, generally (although there are exceptions), credit cards require
a signature if they're above a limit, and debit cards require a PIN, for
ordinary transactions.
Credit cards would still need a PIN for getting a cash advance from an
ATM, of course.
Ben
--
Ben Yalow yb...@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Ben Yalow
>David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
>> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
>I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
>pay for groceries.
Almost certainly debit cards, not credit cards.
>--
>Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
>Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben
Jette
> In <h1m3n6$5j8$1...@panix1.panix.com> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>
>> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>>>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
>
>>> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
>
>> I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
>> pay for groceries.
>
> Almost certainly debit cards, not credit cards.
In the UK both credit and debit cards use PINs - places that will
still accept signatures are few and far between, because the banks
have decided that they will not honour any losses if the card was
stolen or fraudulent unless a PIN is used.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Joy Beeson
wrote:
> I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
> pay for groceries.
Those are probably debit cards. One of my groceries won't take credit
cards at all, but even the one-man health-food store takes my debit
card. (It usually takes her a few days to get around to submitting
it. The major stores are wired directly into the bank.)
Joy Beeson
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ -- sewing
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Paul Dormer
sou...@netcom.com (David Harmon) wrote:
>
> >I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
> >pay for groceries.
>
> Unlikely. Probably a debit card instead.
For no real reason, I tend to pay for groceries with my debit card and
use a credit card for purchases else where. But in UK supermarkets, the
same PIN machine is used whichever card you tender.
And in my local Tesco, the PIN machines seem to break down, so then I
have to sign. I always joke that I've forgotten how to do that.
Michael Benveniste
> I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
> pay for groceries.
I rarely pay for groceries with a credit card, but I do use a
credit card when paying "at the pump" for gasoline. Recently
a few chains have started asking for the billing zip code of
the card.
The one debit card I own has the word DEBIT on the front, but
you'd be hard pressed to see the difference from any distance.
--
Michael Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification required)
Legalize Updoc.
Paul Dormer
(Michael Benveniste) wrote:
>
> The one debit card I own has the word DEBIT on the front, but
> you'd be hard pressed to see the difference from any distance.
I remember many years ago, accidentally tendering my debit card instead
of my credit card when paying for a train fare. I didn't notice, and it
was acceptable for the transaction. Fortunately, it was just after pay
day and there was plenty of money in my current account (I believe
checking account is the US equivalent). My sister had just died suddenly
and I was on the way to the funeral, so that may be why my thought
processes weren't sharp enough to notice.
Tim McDaniel
Not in my experience. The two credit unions who recently gave me
debit cards want me to press the "Credit" button on the POS terminal,
rather than "Debit" and enter a PIN. I presume that the CUs get more
money via Credit, and I have a vague impression that my legal
protections are better that way too (but I'd love to know for sure).
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Ben Yalow
>Ben Yalow wrote:
>> In <h1m3n6$5j8$1...@panix1.panix.com> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>>
>>> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>>> p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>>>>> I don't think PINs are used much for credit cards in the US.
>>
>>>> Used in money machines but usually not elsewhere.
>>
>>> I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
>>> pay for groceries.
>>
>> Almost certainly debit cards, not credit cards.
>In the UK both credit and debit cards use PINs - places that will
>still accept signatures are few and far between, because the banks
>have decided that they will not honour any losses if the card was
>stolen or fraudulent unless a PIN is used.
I've never had any problems using my credit cards in the UK recently (at
least England and Scotland -- it's been a few years since I've been in NI,
so I don't know the situation there), and I've only used signatures, not
PINs (I've never assigned PINs on my credit cards, only my debit cards).
So they seem to be able to handle non-PIN, signature transactions there.
>--
>Jette Goldie
Jette
Yes, your card won't have a chip either, so it would have to be a
signature - non UK cards without chips can still be accepted with a
signature - but where a card has a PIN assigned, they're not supposed
to accept a signature. By this time all UK cards - and many cards
from EU countries - have a PIN.
Ben Yalow
>"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> I often see people keying in several digits when using credit cards to
>> pay for groceries.
>I rarely pay for groceries with a credit card, but I do use a
>credit card when paying "at the pump" for gasoline. Recently
>a few chains have started asking for the billing zip code of
>the card.
It's been interesting to see an increasing number of gas stations starting
to offer cash discounts again. They'd vanished for many years, but most
of the places around here are now giving back the equivalent of most of
the credit card fees (a few percent, typically) as cash discounts.
>The one debit card I own has the word DEBIT on the front, but
>you'd be hard pressed to see the difference from any distance.
>--
>Michael Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification required)
>Legalize Updoc.
Ben
Keith F. Lynch
> It's been interesting to see an increasing number of gas stations
> starting to offer cash discounts again. They'd vanished for many
> years, but most of the places around here are now giving back
> the equivalent of most of the credit card fees (a few percent,
> typically) as cash discounts.
I thought credit card companies insisted that users of their cards
be charged no more than cash customers. If not, I wish that grocery
stores would also give cash discounts.
Tim McDaniel
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> It's been interesting to see an increasing number of gas stations
>> starting to offer cash discounts again. They'd vanished for many
>> years, but most of the places around here are now giving back
>> the equivalent of most of the credit card fees (a few percent,
>> typically) as cash discounts.
>
>I thought credit card companies insisted that users of their cards
>be charged no more than cash customers.
A quick Google search hit
<http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/no-surcharge.html>, which
says
A cash discount is a price reduction on goods or services from the
standard price if a consumer pays with cash or check. Merchants
may offer a discount for cash provided that the offer is made to
all prospective buyers. The states of Colorado, Maine,
Massachusetts and Oklahoma additionally require that the cash
discount be clearly and conspicuously disclosed to customers.
In 10 states it is prohibited by law for merchants to charge
consumers a fee for using a credit card (California, Colorado,
Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York,
Oklahoma and Texas).
That may be a bit old, q.v.
<http://www.gofso.com/Premium/LE/06_le_ic/fg/fg-merchants.html#C>, and
its links, say
Since 1984, when a Truth in Lending law ban on surcharges expired,
some states have enacted laws prohibiting surcharges; ...
Visa and MasterCard prohibit surcharges, and American Express
discourages them. Amex does prohibit "discrimination" against the
Amex card ...
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-16900917.html> is a Boston Globe
article from July 2008 saying "Bill would lift ban on cash discount
for gas". And
<http://www.triskele.com/2008/06/15/connecticut-cash-discount-bill-passes>
is an article from June 2008 saying that Connecticut had repealed its
ban.
<http://www.projo.com/news/content/CREDIT_CARD_GAS_07-22-08_8BAUGNE_v40.42cf6a2.html>
said
In Rhode Island, more gas stations have begun offering a cash
discount after Attorney General Patrick C. Lynch issued an opinion
in which he clarified that it is legal to do so. Lynch, who issued
the opinion in response to a request by the Department of Business
Regulation, said retailers must display both the cash and credit
prices "clearly and conspicuously."
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Keith F. Lynch
> The one debit card I own has the word DEBIT on the front, but
> you'd be hard pressed to see the difference from any distance.
I think my ATM card doubles as a debit card, but it doesn't say
"debit" on it, and as far as I can tell it's indistinguishable from
a credit card.
Keith F. Lynch
How does a higher price for credit card users differ from a lower
price for cash customers?
> <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-16900917.html> is a Boston
> Globe article from July 2008 saying "Bill would lift ban on cash
> discount for gas".
My thought was that it was in the contract between the retailer and
the credit card company, not that it was a law.
Kip Williams
Okay, then CUs are different. I don't think they're enough of the total
debit card market, though, to invalidate my statement.
(Dear God, please tell me we're not going to sit here and quantify "all
the rage" now.)
Kip W
Keith F. Lynch
> (Dear God, please tell me we're not going to sit here and quantify
> "all the rage" now.)
"All the rage" means three people. Just like "many" does. And "God"
means a being with three times the power of an average person.
Ben Yalow
It's not just the legal protections (which are better for credit cards
than debit ones).
Mastercard and Visa both guarantee against fraudulent charges with $0
liability, assuming the right things are done (notifications, signing
cards, etc). Since most debit cards are branded as Visa or Mastercard,
then you've got those additional protections.
However, since a debit card removes money instantly from the account, then
even if they put it back quickly, you're still short until is gets
straightened out. And, of course, you don't get the float.
>--
>Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Ben Yalow
>Ben Yalow <yb...@panix.com> wrote:
>> It's been interesting to see an increasing number of gas stations
>> starting to offer cash discounts again. They'd vanished for many
>> years, but most of the places around here are now giving back
>> the equivalent of most of the credit card fees (a few percent,
>> typically) as cash discounts.
>I thought credit card companies insisted that users of their cards
>be charged no more than cash customers. If not, I wish that grocery
>stores would also give cash discounts.
They cannot charge a premium for using a credit card. They can give a
cash discount.
If the discount is enough, then it's worth using cash instead of a credit
card. And recently, for gas stations, it's been enough.
>--
>Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Ben
Tim McDaniel
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> In 10 states it is prohibited by law for merchants to charge
>> consumers a fee for using a credit card ...
I did not compose that. I cited it as a verbatim block quotation.
Please do not trim my citations.
>How does a higher price for credit card users differ from a lower
>price for cash customers?
You exclude the middle. For example, one article I ran across
mentioned a gas station giving a discount for cash and cheques, and a
smaller discount for debit cards. In the US now, that's a sizeable
middle.
Also, it matters which price(s) are advertised. Another page
mentioned a retailer that provided a price quote, but at the bottom in
fine print was "These prices include a cash discount of N%" (the value
of N I don't recall). On a similar page, a customer said that they
were attracted by a lower price for gas advertised in large letters on
a sign, but only when they went to finish payment did they find that
there was a credit-card surcharge. -- Hence, I suppose, the states
that require that the cash and credit prices both be listed
prominently.
>> <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-16900917.html> is a Boston
>> Globe article from July 2008 saying "Bill would lift ban on cash
>> discount for gas".
>
>My thought was that it was in the contract between the retailer and
>the credit card company, not that it was a law.
In the quotation you kept at the top of this article, you snipped the
citation URL,
<http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/no-surcharge.html>. A few
glances at its linked pages suggest that is an official Web site of
Visa Inc. They're one of the big two for US credit cards.
To repeat more of that quotation from Visa, "Merchants may offer a
discount for cash provided that the offer is made to all prospective
buyers."
I didn't mention that if you go to that page, either with JavaScript
and their CSS (if you can expand the bullets) or omitting both, Visa
quotes the laws of each of the 10 states, and they give contact info
for the Attorney General's office in each such state. For example,
they quote California law:
"No retailer...may impose a surcharge on a cardholder who elects
to use a credit card in lieu of payment by cash, check or similar
means..."
Statute: Cal. Civ. Code sec. 1748.1(a) (West)
Discounts for Cash Payments are allowed in California
"A retailer may, however, offer discounts for the purpose of
inducing payment by cash, check or other means not involving the
use of a credit card, provided that the discount is offered to all
prospective buyers."
Statute: Cal. Civ. Code sec. 1748.1(a) (West)
I can e-mail you a copy if you care for the exact laws.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Jette
In the UK if you pay for something with a credit card - such as an
airline flight that later gets cancelled, or a sofa that doesn't get
delivered - the credit card company will refund the money. If you use
your debit card, the company has the money and there's no refund possible.
Paul Dormer
boss...@scotlandmail.com (Jette) wrote:
>
> In the UK if you pay for something with a credit card - such as an
> airline flight that later gets cancelled, or a sofa that doesn't
> get delivered - the credit card company will refund the money. If
> you use your debit card, the company has the money and there's no
> refund possible.
Yeah, the financial advice column in the paper the other day answered one
query by politely saying that the person should really have paid by
credit card, not debit card or cash.
Paul Dormer
boss...@scotlandmail.com (Jette) wrote:
>
> Yes, your card won't have a chip either, so it would have to be a
> signature - non UK cards without chips can still be accepted with a
> signature - but where a card has a PIN assigned, they're not
> supposed to accept a signature. By this time all UK cards - and
> many cards from EU countries - have a PIN.
Mind you, it took Amex a long time to issue PINs. Amex's policy was that
they'd issue a PIN to a card when the previous card expired. In my case,
this was something like 4 years after all other transactions I made
involved PINs when I got a new card last year.
I remember buying something in a shop a couple of years ago and the
person in front of me in the queue tendered an Amex card. The sales
assistant ran it through his machine and made an exclamation. "An Amex
card with PIN! Haven't seen many of those."
Jette
> In article <pOT%l.46219$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
> boss...@scotlandmail.com (Jette) wrote:
>
>> Yes, your card won't have a chip either, so it would have to be a
>> signature - non UK cards without chips can still be accepted with a
>> signature - but where a card has a PIN assigned, they're not
>> supposed to accept a signature. By this time all UK cards - and
>> many cards from EU countries - have a PIN.
>
> Mind you, it took Amex a long time to issue PINs. Amex's policy was that
> they'd issue a PIN to a card when the previous card expired. In my case,
> this was something like 4 years after all other transactions I made
> involved PINs when I got a new card last year.
>
And to confuse the matter, insisted on you having a 4 digit "personal
security number" when you phoned them to identify you, which wasn't
the 4 digit number on the front of your card.
Brett Paul Dunbar
<boss...@scotlandmail.com> writes
>
>In the UK if you pay for something with a credit card - such as an
>airline flight that later gets cancelled, or a sofa that doesn't get
>delivered - the credit card company will refund the money. If you use
>your debit card, the company has the money and there's no refund possible.
Items purchased with credit cards have statutory insurance under section
75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (provided the total transaction was
between �100 and �30,000 ). While debit cards do not have statutory
protection Visa voluntarily provides a chargeback facility. This is
actually better than section 75 as it has no upper of lower limits (Visa
also provide the same additional coverage with their credit cards).
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/
Brett Paul Dunbar
To email me, use reply-to address
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
> Michael Benveniste <m...@murkyether.com> wrote:
>> The one debit card I own has the word DEBIT on the front, but
>> you'd be hard pressed to see the difference from any distance.
>
> I think my ATM card doubles as a debit card, but it doesn't say
> "debit" on it, and as far as I can tell it's indistinguishable from
> a credit card.
Is it usable as a credit card as well as a debit card? Those are the ones
that generally have "debit" on them, usually very near the Visa or
MasterCard logo.
Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com
Paul Dormer
rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
> > I think my ATM card doubles as a debit card, but it doesn't say
> > "debit" on it, and as far as I can tell it's indistinguishable
> > from a credit card.
>
> Is it usable as a credit card as well as a debit card? Those are
> the ones that generally have "debit" on them, usually very near the
> Visa or MasterCard logo.
I'm slightly confused as to how a card can be both, based on what happens
in the UK. If you use a credit card, you owe money to the credit card
company, if you use a debit card, the money is debited from your current
account.
Jette
Or you can have a debit card with a loan facility. It works like a
debit card - you can only draw money up to the pre-arranged limit.
David Friedman
p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
It may be a question, not of where the money comes from, but of the
obligations of the issuer to the payee.
Some years back, I discovered that a number of U.S. car rental companies
were refusing to rent me a car on my debit card. As best I could
determine, the reason was that if I rented the car and then emptied the
account the card drew on, the rental company had no legal recourse
against the issuing bank, only against me. With a credit card, the bank
still owed them the money if I took off with the car, or returned it and
paid with the card.
After a while, my issuing bank informed me that my card now worked as
both a debit card and a credit card. I assumed that involved some
additional commitment by them to people who accepted payment.
Currently, if I pay for groceries, the machine asks if I'm using a debit
card or a credit card. I tell the machine it's a credit card, since I
think otherwise it will ask me for my PIN (but I haven't actually tried
the experiment), which is a few seconds additional time. The
transactions always go through--although in fact it is set up as a debit
card drawing off my account.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Paul Dormer
dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>
> Currently, if I pay for groceries, the machine asks if I'm using a
> debit card or a credit card.
No such option in the UK - certainly not in Tesco, the only place I use
my debit card for purchases.
Tim McDaniel
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>Currently, if I pay for groceries, the machine asks if I'm using a
>debit card or a credit card. I tell the machine it's a credit card,
Given the part about
>in fact it is set up as a debit card drawing off my account.
my mental model is not that it's asking whether it's a credit card or
debit card, but whether I want to handle it via debit or credit
protocols. My debit card cannot be used to extend credit to me, but I
always use the credit protocol.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
David Harmon
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote,
>I thought credit card companies insisted that users of their cards
>be charged no more than cash customers.
No, but my understanding is that they insist it be described as a cash
discount and NOT a credit card surcharge. I also see e.g. gas stations
post a cash price and a credit price and leave it at that.
> If not, I wish that grocery stores would also give cash discounts.
Ask the management. I'd like to know what their excuse is. From what I
have heard, grocery store profit margins are in the same ballpark
magnitude as credit card transaction fees, so they ought not say some
form of "not worth the bother."
When I replaced my fuel pump, I called the three nearest auto parts
stores to find out which had it in stock, and for the best price. After
I walked to the store to pick it up, they gave me a surprise discount
because it was a "phone order pickup."
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
In this case it's how the transaction is processed rather than where the
funding comes from that's different. The Visa/MC branded debit cards can
either be used and processed as debit transactions, with PIN always
required (AFAIK) or as credit transactions, typically with signature (or
nothing) rather than PIN. Retailers that accept both debit and credit
generally prefer debit as their processing cost is typically lower. Many
retailers (and, of course, all mail order companies) don't accept debit.
For people who don't want or can't get a credit card, a debit card that
can be processed as a credit transaction offers many of the benefits
(other than deferred payment). The "credit limit" of such a card is
usually equal to the unreserved balance in the account. A credit line
attached to a bank account is an entirely different thing. These are
usually sold as overdraft protection and frequently have fairly poor
interest rates attached.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
I believe that debit transactions are immediate in that you approve the
transaction and your bank transfers the money from your account. There's
no way for the system to handle a commitment for later payment. With the
credit system a "hold" can placed on a certain dollar amount without
actually completing the transaction or, in the case of a debit "credit"
card, transferring the funds out of your account. Buried somewhere in
the online or paper terms of service for your card there should be a
note that credit transactions can place a hold on funds and held
funds are not available for your use until the hold expires or a
corresponding transaction arrives. Car rental companies will frequently
place a hold for some dollar amount when you pick up the car. I think it
was $250 the last time I rented one.
Paul Dormer
rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
> In this case it's how the transaction is processed rather than where
the
> funding comes from that's different. The Visa/MC branded debit cards
can
> either be used and processed as debit transactions, with PIN always
> required (AFAIK) or as credit transactions, typically with signature
(or
> nothing) rather than PIN. Retailers that accept both debit and credit
> generally prefer debit as their processing cost is typically lower.
Many
> retailers (and, of course, all mail order companies) don't accept
> debit.
Seems we do things differently in the UK. For a start, I'm sure you can
use a debit card for mail order. I'm certain you can for internet orders.
There was some bill I wanted to pay a year or two ago which I could pay
over the internet by debit card but not credit card. (And I'm blanking
as to what it was.)
My bank sent me a new debit card recently and it was a Visa card. The
bank sent me some accompanying bumf about why it was now a Visa card, but
it said I could go on using it as I used to with no change.
Andy Leighton
Totally pointless as well. You can work out if it is a debit or credit
card (and the issuer) by the card number.
--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
David Friedman
Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:14 +0100 (BST),
> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ddfr-1963B2.0...@newsfarm.ams.highwinds-media.com>,
> > dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Currently, if I pay for groceries, the machine asks if I'm using a
> >> debit card or a credit card.
> >
> > No such option in the UK - certainly not in Tesco, the only place I use
> > my debit card for purchases.
>
> Totally pointless as well. You can work out if it is a debit or credit
> card (and the issuer) by the card number.
Except that, in the U.S., the same card may function as both.
mor...@epsilon3.com
On 23-Jun-2009, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> In this case it's how the transaction is processed rather than where the
> funding comes from that's different. The Visa/MC branded debit cards can
> either be used and processed as debit transactions, with PIN always
> required (AFAIK) or as credit transactions, typically with signature (or
> nothing) rather than PIN. Retailers that accept both debit and credit
> generally prefer debit as their processing cost is typically lower. Many
> retailers (and, of course, all mail order companies) don't accept debit.
Ok, am I the only one that still gets a debit card charge when using it as a
debit card? If I use it at Wally World as a credit card there is no fee but
I can't get cash back. If I use it as a debit card I can get cash back but
there's a small fee. As that's the only time I ever use it as a debit card
I don't know if the fee is standard for any transaction. Of course, there's
a fee for cash withdrawals at a foreign ATM[1].
[1]Don't know if this is a standard term world-wide but in this case that's
an ATM that belongs to a bank other than yours.
Keith F. Lynch
> Or you can have a debit card with a loan facility. It works like a
> debit card - you can only draw money up to the pre-arranged limit.
Are you implying that credit cards allow you to draw money with no limit?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>> I think my ATM card doubles as a debit card, but it doesn't say
>> "debit" on it, and as far as I can tell it's indistinguishable from
>> a credit card.
> Is it usable as a credit card as well as a debit card?
I strongly doubt it. I keep getting ads for credit cards, and even
the "pre-approved" ones invariably ask plenty of nosy questions and
clearly say that answering them is mandatory. These are questions my
bank doesn't know the answers to.
Michael Benveniste
> Is it usable as a credit card as well as a debit card? Those are the ones
> that generally have "debit" on them, usually very near the Visa or
> MasterCard logo.
There's no line of credit attached to the account, so by that
definition it's not. The bank (Sovereign/Santander) definitely
issues both types.
Could I use it without entering my PIN? The short answer is:
"I don't know; I haven't tried." I did request that the card
require a PIN at all times, and in the space normally allocated
to a signature I've written "Demand PIN." But since the bank
recently changed ownership (again), I should probably verify
that.
--
Michael Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification required)
Legalize Updoc.
Paul Dormer
Lynch) wrote:
>
> Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
> > Or you can have a debit card with a loan facility. It works like a
> > debit card - you can only draw money up to the pre-arranged limit.
>
> Are you implying that credit cards allow you to draw money with no
> limit?
Well, I've never hit my limit. :-)
Famously, UK credit card companies had a habit of increasing your limit
if you got near it, which led to large amounts of credit card debt.
Don't know if they still do it, but as I always pay off my card every
month, I have a self-imposed limit of how much I wish to spend.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
> <rksh...@rosettacondot.com> wrote:
>
>> Is it usable as a credit card as well as a debit card? Those are the ones
>> that generally have "debit" on them, usually very near the Visa or
>> MasterCard logo.
>
> There's no line of credit attached to the account, so by that
> definition it's not. The bank (Sovereign/Santander) definitely
> issues both types.
What I meant was "can be processed as a credit transaction". That is,
can the card be used at places that don't accept debit cards. Mine, for
example, can be used as a debit card, in which case the transaction is
processed via the PULSE network, or as a credit card, in which case the
transaction is processed by MasterCard. In either case the amount is
withdrawn from my bank account.
> Could I use it without entering my PIN? The short answer is:
> "I don't know; I haven't tried." I did request that the card
> require a PIN at all times, and in the space normally allocated
> to a signature I've written "Demand PIN." But since the bank
> recently changed ownership (again), I should probably verify
> that.
There are still a lot of places in the US that aren't set up to accept
a PIN (many restaurants and some retailers, especially smaller ones).
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
At least some US issuers seem to increase the limit periodically whether
you get close to it or not.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
The fee structure is dependent on your bank and/or account. Mine doesn't
charge a fee for debit use and reimburses foreign ATM charges automatically.
This includes actual foreign ATM charges...the fees I was charged while in
London were reimbursed as well.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:14 +0100 (BST),
> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <ddfr-1963B2.0...@newsfarm.ams.highwinds-media.com>,
>> dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Currently, if I pay for groceries, the machine asks if I'm using a
>>> debit card or a credit card.
>>
>> No such option in the UK - certainly not in Tesco, the only place I use
>> my debit card for purchases.
>
> Totally pointless as well. You can work out if it is a debit or credit
> card (and the issuer) by the card number.
Non-trivially since you need a current database of the full 6-digit
Issuer Identifier Numbers. Also, at least in the US, cards can frequently
be processed both ways. My debit card, for example, starts with "54",
which is a MasterCard IIN. I can choose to process the transaction as
debit, entering a PIN, or as credit, without PIN and with or without
signature as the merchant requires. In either case the money is withdrawn
from my account (typically immediately if debit and within a few days if
"credit").
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
> In article <h1r629$u4j$1...@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>,
> rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
>>
>> In this case it's how the transaction is processed rather than where
> the
>> funding comes from that's different. The Visa/MC branded debit cards
> can
>> either be used and processed as debit transactions, with PIN always
>> required (AFAIK) or as credit transactions, typically with signature
> (or
>> nothing) rather than PIN. Retailers that accept both debit and credit
>> generally prefer debit as their processing cost is typically lower.
> Many
>> retailers (and, of course, all mail order companies) don't accept
>> debit.
>
> Seems we do things differently in the UK. For a start, I'm sure you can
> use a debit card for mail order. I'm certain you can for internet orders.
> There was some bill I wanted to pay a year or two ago which I could pay
> over the internet by debit card but not credit card. (And I'm blanking
> as to what it was.)
There are apparently "signature debit" cards issued by PULSE (the debit
processor my bank uses) but I don't think I've ever seen one. As soon as
I choose "debit" for a transaction the system prompts me for a PIN and
"debit" isn't a choice anywhere that's not prepared to accept my PIN.
> My bank sent me a new debit card recently and it was a Visa card. The
> bank sent me some accompanying bumf about why it was now a Visa card, but
> it said I could go on using it as I used to with no change.
It's the same with Visa/MC branded debit cards issued in the US,
though since ours aren't chip-and-PIN there's some decrease in security.
Fortunately most (all?) banks have zero-loss coverage in case of fraud,
although there could be fallout from having the money disappear from
your account, even if it is temporary. I know that a fair number of
people insisted on having the original debit cards rather than the
new ones for this reason.
Paul Dormer
rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
> > Famously, UK credit card companies had a habit of increasing your
> > limit if you got near it, which led to large amounts of credit card
> > debt.
> >
> > Don't know if they still do it, but as I always pay off my card every
> > month, I have a self-imposed limit of how much I wish to spend.
>
> At least some US issuers seem to increase the limit periodically
whether
> you get close to it or not.
Yeah, I've heard that too. I'd no idea what my credit limit was until
this exchange started, so I looked it up. More than I'd ever want to
spend in a month on casual purchases.
Paul Dormer
rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
> There are apparently "signature debit" cards issued by PULSE (the debit
> processor my bank uses) but I don't think I've ever seen one. As soon
as
> I choose "debit" for a transaction the system prompts me for a PIN and
> "debit" isn't a choice anywhere that's not prepared to accept my
> PIN.
Traditionally in the UK, debit cards doubled as cheque guarantee cards.
Or rather, the cheque guarantee card came first and was then upgraded to
a debit card in my case.
In the days before ATMs were common, you could only cash a cheque at your
own branch, unless you asked for an arrangement with another branch you
knew you'd be visiting. A cheque guarantee card could be used to cash a
cheque at any branch, and also you could make purchases with a cheque at
shops and if you presented your card and the number of the card was
written on the back of the cheque, then the bank guaranteed the cheque.
For that reason, you always needed a signature on the card.
Now, with ATMs and most shops not accepting cheques, this is less useful,
but my new card does have a hologram on the back showing the words
"cheque guarantee" and a limit of �100.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
Mine started at more than I'd want to spend on casual purchases in several
months and is now past what I'd want to spend in 2-3 years. I don't think
I ever came within half of the original limit and have never carried a
balance in the 11 years I've had the card. This certainly hasn't stopped
them from increasing the limit at least yearly.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
I don't recall ever seeing a bank-issued check guarantee card in the
US (which doesn't mean they didn't exist). What I do remember were
retailer-issued check guarantee cards. These let you write a check for
a small amount over the sum of your purchase and get cash back. Most
retailers would take checks for reasonably-sized purchases, but many of
them wanted to see some form of ID (and later a credit card) unless you
had one of their check cards or they knew you personally.
AFAIK "debit" cards started in the US as ATM cards, used for withdrawing
cash at your bank without talking to a teller. Their use as cards for debit
purchase came later and slowly. The first such card I owned had a significant
fee for the time (30 years ago) of either $0.75 or $1.25 for any withdrawal
except at the issuing bank's machines.
Morris Keesan
> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'd no idea what my credit limit was until
>> this exchange started, so I looked it up. More than I'd ever want to
>> spend in a month on casual purchases.
>
> Mine started at more than I'd want to spend on casual purchases in
> several
> months and is now past what I'd want to spend in 2-3 years. I don't think
> I ever came within half of the original limit and have never carried a
> balance in the 11 years I've had the card. This certainly hasn't stopped
> them from increasing the limit at least yearly.
One of my cards has a limit which is larger than I typically charge on it
in a
year (but not as much as 2 years' usage). The one time I actually found
this
useful was a few years ago when the heat in our house failed while we were
away,
in the middle of January. The plumbers' bill for repairing/replacing all
of our
cracked pipes, radiators, toilets, boiler, water heater, etc., was more
than half
of what we had paid for the house, twenty years earlier, and the way we
survived
until the insurance check arrived was by charging the maximum we could on
the credit
cards while we juggled bank and investment accounts and got short-term
loans from
family members.
Joy Beeson
wrote:
> . . . Mine doesn't
> charge a fee for debit use . . .
My bank pays me for using my debit card. I've long wondered what was
up with that.
(Not per use -- a variable sum, often not far under a hundred dollars,
for using my debit card at least eight times in a fiscal month.)
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Keith F. Lynch
> They cannot charge a premium for using a credit card. They can give
> a cash discount.
This distinction is too subtle for me.
David Friedman
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Ben Yalow <yb...@panix.com> wrote:
> > They cannot charge a premium for using a credit card. They can give
> > a cash discount.
>
> This distinction is too subtle for me.
It's a difference of form, not substance, but one that apparently
matters to people.
Paul Dormer
rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
> I don't recall ever seeing a bank-issued check guarantee card in the
> US (which doesn't mean they didn't exist). What I do remember were
I've heard that a major reason for the lack of bank-issued cheque
guarantee cards in the US is that there are (or were) large numbers of
local banks. In the UK, they use to talk about the big four banks -
which I think were Midlands, Barclays, NatWest and Lloyds. You'd see
branches of these on most British (well, English) High Streets.
> retailer-issued check guarantee cards. These let you write a check for
> a small amount over the sum of your purchase and get cash back. Most
> retailers would take checks for reasonably-sized purchases, but many of
> them wanted to see some form of ID (and later a credit card) unless you
> had one of their check cards or they knew you personally.
> AFAIK "debit" cards started in the US as ATM cards, used for
withdrawing
> cash at your bank without talking to a teller. Their use as cards for
> debit purchase came later and slowly. The first such card I owned had a
> significant fee for the time (30 years ago) of either $0.75 or $1.25
> for any withdrawal except at the issuing bank's machines.
A bizarre fact that emerged in the obituaries of the actor Reg Varney who
died last year was that he was the first person in the world to use an
ATM at a branch of Barclays bank in Enfield in north London in 1967.
But I don't think they became common in the UK till the mid-eighties. I
didn't get a card which worked an ATM until about 1987. This was just an
upgrade of the cheque guarantee card I already had. And I think it was a
debit card from the start. Certainly, the incident I already mentioned,
where I accidentally used my debit card instead of my credit card for a
big train fare must have been in early 1992.
Michael Stemper
>Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> Famously, UK credit card companies had a habit of increasing your limit
>> if you got near it, which led to large amounts of credit card debt.
>>
>> Don't know if they still do it, but as I always pay off my card every
>> month, I have a self-imposed limit of how much I wish to spend.
>
>At least some US issuers seem to increase the limit periodically whether
>you get close to it or not.
I think that that's ending or ended. I watched with amusement as I got
the periodic notices of my Visa limit being raised and raised again. Each
notice was accompanied with blandishments about the many wonderful ways
that I could use the additional creidt.
About three months back, I got a notice saying that they'd reviewed my
account and were reducing my credit limit -- by ten thousand dollars.
It's still well above any amount that I've ever charged, but it's low
enough that I won't be able to charge my next new car.
One might almost think that they were foolish in the amount of credit
that they were offering. But, of course, we all know that the banking
industry is a paragon of discretion that only offers unsound credit
when forced to by the federal government.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Brett Paul Dunbar
Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> writes
>In article <h1tuf3$kv6$1...@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>,
>rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't recall ever seeing a bank-issued check guarantee card in the
>> US (which doesn't mean they didn't exist). What I do remember were
>
>I've heard that a major reason for the lack of bank-issued cheque
>guarantee cards in the US is that there are (or were) large numbers of
>local banks. In the UK, they use to talk about the big four banks -
>which I think were Midlands, Barclays, NatWest and Lloyds. You'd see
>branches of these on most British (well, English) High Streets.
At the beginning of the twentieth century the big five banks were.
Barclays, Midland, National Provincial, Westminster and Lloyds. The big
five. In the early 1970s National Provincial and Westminster merged to
form National Westminster later Natwest producing the big five. Then in
2001 following the demutualisation of most of the big building societies
and their transformation into medium sized banks. Bank of Scotland
merged with the former building society Halifax to form HBOS creating a
new big five. Meanwhile Hong Kong Singapore Bank (HSBC) had bought and
re-branded Midland as HSBC while Lloyds took over the smaller (roughly
half its size) TSB (Trustee Savings Bank)[1] and became Lloyds TSB and
then the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) bought the larger (roughly twice
its size) Natwest keeping the Natwest brand. In January 2009 following
the Credit Crunch Lloyds TSB took over the somewhat smaller HBOS to form
Lloyds Banking Group while Banco Santander which had bought Abbey
(formally Abbey National) and Alliance & Leicester acquired the deposit
side of the failed Bradford & Bingley following the emergency
nationalisation of the bank and plans to fully merge the three medium
sized ex-building societies and re-brand them all as Banco Santander.
Pre 1970s Big Five
Barclays
National Provincial
Midland
Westminster
Lloyds
post 1970s Big Four
Barclays
National Westminster
Midland
Lloyds
2001 Big Five
Barclays
HSBC
Lloyds TSB
RBS (trading as Natwest and Royal Bank of Scotland)
HBOS (trading as Halifax and Bank of Scotland)
2009 Big Four
Barclays
HSBC
Lloyds Banking Group (43% state owned)
RBS (70% state owned)
Likely future Big five
Barclays
HSBC
Lloyds Banking Group
RBS
Banco Santander
There are still a few medium sized banks around, such as the
nationalised Northern Rock, which is another ex-building society. It is
interesting that with the collapse of Bradford & Bingley [1] not one
demutualised building society now survives as an independent financial
institution.
[1] The FSA declared it incapable of fulfilling the obligations of a
bank and emergency nationalised it, transferring the deposits
and branches to Banco Santander. It is the only bank to actually
fail Northern Rock was nationalised without actually collapsing
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/
Brett Paul Dunbar
To email me, use reply-to address
Andy Leighton
Brett Paul Dunbar <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <memo.2009062...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk>, Paul
> Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> writes
>>In article <h1tuf3$kv6$1...@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>,
>>rksh...@rosettacondot.com () wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I don't recall ever seeing a bank-issued check guarantee card in the
>>> US (which doesn't mean they didn't exist). What I do remember were
>>
>>I've heard that a major reason for the lack of bank-issued cheque
>>guarantee cards in the US is that there are (or were) large numbers of
>>local banks. In the UK, they use to talk about the big four banks -
>>which I think were Midlands, Barclays, NatWest and Lloyds. You'd see
>>branches of these on most British (well, English) High Streets.
[snip]
> Pre 1970s Big Five
[snip]
> 2009 Big Four
What is interesting is that for supermarkets there is also a big four
Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury and Morrisons. There is a big four for accountancy
firms (KPMG, PriceWaterhouseCooper, Ernst & Young & Deloitte). There
used to be a big four for travel agents (over the past couple of years
they have consolidated into a big two).
Philip Chee
> new big five. Meanwhile Hong Kong Singapore Bank (HSBC) had bought and
That's Hong Kong and Shanghai (or rather was).
Phil
--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Goldfarb
Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>About three months back, I got a notice saying that they'd reviewed my
>account and were reducing my credit limit -- by ten thousand dollars.
>It's still well above any amount that I've ever charged, but it's low
>enough that I won't be able to charge my next new car.
I got something quite similar. My credit limit is still pretty high,
though. (I did in fact buy a new car recently, but I didn't put it
on my credit card.)
--
David Goldfarb |"...with very few exceptions, nothing lasts
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | forever; and among those exceptions no thought
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | or work of man is numbered." -- Iain M. Banks
Keith F. Lynch
> At the beginning of the twentieth century the big five banks were.
> Barclays, Midland, National Provincial, Westminster and Lloyds.
ObSF: In the movie Time After Time, when H.G. Wells arrives in 1970s
San Francisco from 1890s London, he's pleased to see a Bank of England.
He goes there to change currency and to fall in love. The implication
was that Bank of England was a familiar institution in London towards
the end of the 19th century. Not so?
Is Lloyds also an insurance company, or is that a different Lloyds?
Thanks.
Keith F. Lynch
> About three months back, I got a notice saying that they'd reviewed
> my account and were reducing my credit limit -- by ten thousand
I hope they give plenty of advance notice, so that they don't totally
screw over people who were in the process of making a large purchase.
Brett Paul Dunbar
<k...@KeithLynch.net> writes
>Brett Paul Dunbar <br...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> At the beginning of the twentieth century the big five banks were.
>> Barclays, Midland, National Provincial, Westminster and Lloyds.
>
>ObSF: In the movie Time After Time, when H.G. Wells arrives in 1970s
>San Francisco from 1890s London, he's pleased to see a Bank of England.
>He goes there to change currency and to fall in love. The implication
>was that Bank of England was a familiar institution in London towards
>the end of the 19th century. Not so?
The Bank of England has been around since 1694, it has no branches and
never has had any. It's the Central Bank and the Lender of Last Resort
for other Banks and it doesn't deal with the public to any great extent.
There is a cashier's desk where you can exchange old or damaged
banknotes, the promise to pay the bearer on demand is valid, otherwise
it doesn't really deal with the public. It did at one time do a bit of
commercial banking but largely got out of that during the Governorship
of Montagu Norman (1920-1944) in order to concentrate on being a central
bank. It was nationalised in 1946.
>
>Is Lloyds also an insurance company, or is that a different Lloyds?
>Thanks.
Lloyd's of London (note the apostrophe) is a reinsurance market not a
company. Lloyds bank (note the lack of apostrophe) Trades as an insurer
under the Scottish Widows brand after it bought the mutual for �7
billion in 2000 making Lloyds Britain's second largest insurer after
Prudential.
The Formation section from the history summary on the respective
wikipedia pages.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd's_of_London>
[...]
The market began in Edward Lloyd's coffee-house around 1688 in
Tower Street, London. His establishment was a popular place for
sailors, merchants, and ship owners and Lloyd catered to them
with reliable shipping news. The shipping industry community
frequented the place to discuss insurance deals among
themselves. Just after Christmas 1691, the coffee shop relocated
to Lombard Street (a blue plaque commemorates this location).
This arrangement carried on long after Lloyd's death in 1713
until 1774 when the participating members of the insurance
arrangement formed a committee and moved to the Royal Exchange
as The Society of Lloyd's.
[...]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyds_Banking_Group>
[...]
Lloyds TSB was created in 1995, when the Lloyds Bank and the
Trustee Savings Bank ("TSB") agreed to merge, creating at that
time the second-largest bank in the UK by market capitalisation
after HSBC Holdings; and the largest by market share. The first
chairman of the merged bank was Sir Robin Ibbs.
Lloyds Bank was one of the oldest banks in the UK, tracing its
establishment to Charles Lloyd of Wales in 1677 then changing
its name to Taylors and Lloyds in 1765 in Birmingham after John
Taylor and Samuel Lloyd. Through a series of mergers, Lloyds
emerged to become one of the Big Four banks in the UK.
The TSB can trace its roots back to the first savings bank
founded by Henry Duncan in Ruthwell, Dumfriesshire in 1810. The
TSB itself was created in 1985, by an Act of Parliament that
merged together all the remaining savings banks in England &
Wales under TSB Bank plc and in Scotland as TSB Scotland plc
(excepting Airdrie Savings Bank which remains the only
independent savings bank in the U.K.).
Tim McDaniel
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Ben Yalow <yb...@panix.com> wrote:
>> They cannot charge a premium for using a credit card. They can give
>> a cash discount.
>
>This distinction is too subtle for me.
Perhaps you didn't see my explanation from the day before,
Message-ID: <7u76h6-...@tmcd.austin.tx.us>, article 1006129 on
Panix's newsspool? In trn, ( ], I think: on the article tree as I see
it, up to the sibling subthread and down to the leaf.
In brief:
- you're excluding a large middle: debit cards, cheques, and money
orders. Debit cards are used in a significant number of purchases
in the US now. In my Googling, I found a couple of sites that
listed each in discount policies.
- there are often state laws that control how prices are listed, and
there have been bad (and presumably illegal) examples of unexpected
credit-card surcharges, as I mentioned in the previous note.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Tim McDaniel
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> About three months back, I got a notice saying that they'd reviewed
>> my account and were reducing my credit limit -- by ten thousand
>> dollars. It's still well above any amount that I've ever charged, ...
>
>I hope they give plenty of advance notice, so that they don't totally
>screw over people who were in the process of making a large purchase.
Nope. Looking at news.google.com shows a number of examples, even in
a few hits, of companies, without warning, reducing credit limits to
just over the current balance.
E.g. <http://www.local12.com/content/troubleshooter/story/Sunman-Womans-Credit-Limit-Reduced-Without-Warning/5duMHFsycUaSx2VnTwRb7w.cspx>
I saw a lot of articles about AmEx doing it.
Comment 41 at
<http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2008/10/31/reduced-credit-card-limits-lines-share-your-experience/>
says that AmEX reduced his credit to below his current balance,
requiring payment of the difference immediately. I've see a reference
or two to cancelling a card, which presumably requires repayment in
full immediately.
It's worse than suddenly having the grocery store purchase be denied,
or suddenly getting your phone service cut off due to non-payment (I
saw both stories). One of the components in credit ratings is credit
utilization: the ratio of debt to credit limits. A couple of messages
mentioned a sudden cut of one credit limit -> much higher credit
utilization -> much lower credit score -> other lenders noticing ->
sudden cut of another credit limit -> ...
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> I hope they give plenty of advance notice, so that they don't totally
>> screw over people who were in the process of making a large purchase.
> Nope. Looking at news.google.com shows a number of examples, even in
> a few hits, of companies, without warning, reducing credit limits to
> just over the current balance.
> ... says that AmEX reduced his credit to below his current balance,
> requiring payment of the difference immediately.
Is this not widely known? Knowing that that was a possibility,
there's no way I'd consider getting that credit card. In fact, it
strikes me as fraud, unless the contract specifically says the card
company can do that -- and if it did, there's no way I'd sign it.
rksh...@rosettacondot.com
> Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> I hope they give plenty of advance notice, so that they don't totally
>>> screw over people who were in the process of making a large purchase.
>
>> Nope. Looking at news.google.com shows a number of examples, even in
>> a few hits, of companies, without warning, reducing credit limits to
>> just over the current balance.
>
>> ... says that AmEX reduced his credit to below his current balance,
>> requiring payment of the difference immediately.
>
> Is this not widely known? Knowing that that was a possibility,
> there's no way I'd consider getting that credit card. In fact, it
> strikes me as fraud, unless the contract specifically says the card
> company can do that -- and if it did, there's no way I'd sign it.
AFAIK the terms of service for all credit cards, and probably all lines
of credit, have some reference to alteration of available credit due to
material changes in creditworthiness. What this effectively means is
that they monitor your credit rating and drop your limit if your credit
rating drops. As was mentioned, this can cause further drops in your
rating as your debt to available credit ratio climbs. I've never heard
of dropping the limit to below the balance and demanding payment, although
requiring payment of new charges that exceed the limit is typical.