TAFF T-Shirts
Loren Joseph MacGregor
illustration on the front by the noted Freddie Baer, and on *most* but
not all t-shirts, a TAFF logo on the back that says "Trans Atlantic Fan
Fund," with the D in a darker shade so that it can be read as either
"fun" or "fund," as you choose) are available from
Jeanne Bowman
Box 982
Glen Ellen, CA 95442-0982
The shirts are $15.00, which includes $3.00 postage and handling.
Sorry, no smalls or mediums available, but you have your choice of
large, XX-large, or XXX-large.
Write to Jeannie for details.
-- LJM
John Lorentz
years. The people that have done the ordering rarely order smalls, order
a few mediums and larges, and load up on XL's (don't know why--they both
wear mediums). Fandom is not all one size (extra-large).
Moshe Feder
: More to my message of a couple of days ago. TAFF T-shirts (featuring an
: illustration on the front by the noted Freddie Baer, and on *most* but
: not all t-shirts, a TAFF logo on the back that says "Trans Atlantic Fan
: Fund," with the D in a darker shade so that it can be read as either
: The shirts are $15.00, which includes $3.00 postage and handling.
: Sorry, no smalls or mediums available, but you have your choice of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: large, XX-large, or XXX-large.
Apology not accepted! Sorry, but I am sick and tired of this, and I am NOT
going to buy one of these shirts. I will instead urge others to consider
doing the same. Normally, I'd leap at the chance to buy one of Freddie's
designs and support TAFF at the same time, but I am fed up with being
forced by conventions, fan funds, publishers and anyone else who makes
shirts to buy a shirt that doesn't fit me. In Freddie's t-shirt of the
month club, I take a small. I'd be perfectly happy to settle for a medium
and have a shirt that is pleasantly loose in the summer but still looks
like it fits me. I refuse to buy a shirt that hangs on me like a tent.
If TAFF is a fanfand for all of trufandom, it must be a fanfund for the
slim as well as the fat. What would fandom's reaction have been, I wonder,
if our Corflu 7 t-shirt by Ross Chamberlain had only been made in small
and medium? Do you really think they would have helped us invent
rationalizations? Of course, as thin a person forced to buy oversize
shirts, I've certainly been offered my share, such as balderdash about L
shirts shrinking to fit an S frame. Would they have accepted it if we'd
put ourselves in a position to say, "Oh you take an XL? Sorry, we only
have small and medium. Well, the M makes a lovely bandana." Give me a break.
If it's not practical to make all the sizes, the right answer is to make
every other size. Just with Medium and XL you can satisfy four size
groups. The small and mediums can share the Ms, the larges and
extra-larges can share the XLs. Many more people will be happy this way.
When SFBC produced t-shirts for its anniversary, I suggested this scheme
and it worked perfectly.
Wake up fandom, not everyone here is large. If the equal rights of the
slim are not recognized we could find ourselves in a mud-slinging contest
that will make the zinefan vs. confan fight look like a sand-box squabble.
--
Moshe Feder ===> ===> ===> ===> mo...@amanda.dorsai.org
Typos unintentionla >>>FIAWOL<<< 718-461-5302
MIKE BLAKE
> Wake up fandom, not everyone here is large. If the equal rights
> of the slim are not recognized we could find ourselves in a
> mud-slinging contest that will make the zinefan vs. confan
> fight look like a sand-box squabble.
You can be slim in the privacy of your own home, but if you're
going to do it at a con, go stand behind a curtain or someting!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Karen Cooper
>[...] Normally, I'd leap at the chance to buy one of Freddie's
>designs and support TAFF at the same time, but I am fed up with being
>forced by conventions, fan funds, publishers and anyone else who makes
>shirts to buy a shirt that doesn't fit me. In Freddie's t-shirt of the
>month club, I take a small. I'd be perfectly happy to settle for a medium
>and have a shirt that is pleasantly loose in the summer but still looks
>like it fits me. I refuse to buy a shirt that hangs on me like a tent.
Damn straight! As a woman, I can "get away with" wearing enormous oversized
shirts with leggings or something, and occasionally I do. But an XL
t-shirt makes a reasonable dress for me, and I have to say that, like
you, I want to buy t-shirts that fit, and I want to wear them as *shirts*.
>If it's not practical to make all the sizes, the right answer is to make
>every other size. Just with Medium and XL you can satisfy four size
>groups. The small and mediums can share the Ms, the larges and
>extra-larges can share the XLs.
Emminently sensible, and a suggestion I shall pass on.
>Wake up fandom, not everyone here is large. If the equal rights of the
>slim are not recognized we could find ourselves in a mud-slinging contest
>that will make the zinefan vs. confan fight look like a sand-box squabble.
Well, I am not so excitable as all that. And I can think of several
reasons why any given situation has not got my size shirt available; I'd
blame stupidity over malice any day. But if my size t-shirt is not
available, I am not going to buy the wrong size.
Karen.
lm...@bbs.tatertot.com
Berni (replying to Moshe) says:
> Moshe, Moshe, calm down. It's not just fat people who like big
> t-shirts. My niece doesn't weigh enough to give blood (she's
> 24, around 100 lbs.), and she always buys XL t-shirts. She's
> not the only woman I know who likes over-sized shirts. This
> is as much a contributing factor as those of us who are
> horizontally enhanced.
I haven't seen Moshe's comment yet, but I'll relay what a couple of people who
make shirts for fannish events have told me: "Yes, we do get complaints that
we don't have enough small or medium t-shirts. But the people who want the
XXX-large want them enough that they order them _and pay_ in advance -- and the
people who want small t-shirts don't buy enough of them, nor do they let us
know early enough so we can come prepared."
So you want a small convention t-shirt -- send the convention money with your
order.
Me, I'm still an x-large, heading for an xx-large, and wondering where my
fleetness of foot has done went.
-- LJM
lm...@bbs.tatertot.com
Moshe Feder quibbled:
> If it's not practical to make all the sizes, the right answer is to
> make every other size. Just with Medium and XL you can satisfy four
> size groups. The small and mediums can share the Ms, the larges and
> extra-larges can share the XLs. Many more people will be happy this
> way. When SFBC produced t-shirts for its anniversary, I suggested this
> scheme and it worked perfectly.
Yes, and SFBC has the money to buy the shirts up-front. The TAFF shirts were
produced by one person, who solicited requests in advance, and found that,
although quite a few people were willing to complain that there weren't enough
shirts in their size AFTER the fact, very few of these same people were willing
to pay for a shirt in advance.
It may be that slim folk are inherently cautious, and are unwilling to pay for
a product before they see its quality. Or it may be that they're just cheap.
In any event, *because* in the real world people who need XXX-large shirts are
often not able to get them, they are somewhat more willing to pony up money in
advance to ensure that they'll get what they want. *Because,* in the real
world, someone who is slim is *usually* able to go and buy something off the
rack, these people may presume that the same rules should hold true in fandom.
It ain't, as they say, necessarily, as it were, so.
-- LJM
Janice Gelb
>
>Moshe Feder quibbled:
>
> > If it's not practical to make all the sizes, the right answer is to
> > make every other size. Just with Medium and XL you can satisfy four
> > size groups. The small and mediums can share the Ms, the larges and
> > extra-larges can share the XLs. Many more people will be happy this
> > way. When SFBC produced t-shirts for its anniversary, I suggested this
> > scheme and it worked perfectly.
>
>Yes, and SFBC has the money to buy the shirts up-front. The TAFF shirts were
>produced by one person, who solicited requests in advance, and found that,
>although quite a few people were willing to complain that there weren't enough
>shirts in their size AFTER the fact, very few of these same people were willing
>to pay for a shirt in advance.
>
>It may be that slim folk are inherently cautious, and are unwilling to pay for
>a product before they see its quality. Or it may be that they're just cheap.
>
As a member of the slim minority, let me add to this discussion that
although in this particular case the T-shirt maker may have solicited
requests in advance, generally conventions and other organizations
order T-shirts in bulk and then have them available for sale. And
they rarely if ever order Smalls or even just Mediums. I don't see
why T-shirt suppliers would think that Medium is such an unusual size
that they'd have to have a guarantee up front that enough people would
fit them to make it worthwhile to have some available.
>I haven't seen Moshe's comment yet, but I'll relay what a couple of people who
>make shirts for fannish events have told me: "Yes, we do get complaints that
>we don't have enough small or medium t-shirts. But the people who want the
>XXX-large want them enough that they order them _and pay_ in advance -- and the
>people who want small t-shirts don't buy enough of them, nor do they let us
>know early enough so we can come prepared."
XXX-large shirts are a special order because (1) there aren't that many
people out there who need them, and (2) they cost more because of the
extra material. Size medium shirts should not have to fall into
the special order category -- they don't cost more and there are many
fans that size who would appreciate their availability.
********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb | The only connection Sun has with this
jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com | message is the return address.
"Life is something to do when you can't get to sleep."
-- Fran Lebowitz, _Metropolitan Life_
********************************************************************************
Joseph W. Casey
> In article 0AG...@bbs.tatertot.com, lm...@bbs.tatertot.com writes:
>>
>>Moshe Feder quibbled:
>>
>> > If it's not practical to make all the sizes, the right answer is to
>> > make every other size. Just with Medium and XL you can satisfy four
>> > size groups. The small and mediums can share the Ms, the larges and
>> > extra-larges can share the XLs. Many more people will be happy this
>> > way. When SFBC produced t-shirts for its anniversary, I suggested this
>> > scheme and it worked perfectly.
>>
>>Yes, and SFBC has the money to buy the shirts up-front. The TAFF shirts were
>>produced by one person, who solicited requests in advance, and found that,
>>although quite a few people were willing to complain that there weren't enough
>>shirts in their size AFTER the fact, very few of these same people were willing
>>to pay for a shirt in advance.
>>
>>It may be that slim folk are inherently cautious, and are unwilling to pay for
>>a product before they see its quality. Or it may be that they're just cheap.
>>
>
> As a member of the slim minority, let me add to this discussion that
> although in this particular case the T-shirt maker may have solicited
> requests in advance, generally conventions and other organizations
> order T-shirts in bulk and then have them available for sale. And
> they rarely if ever order Smalls or even just Mediums. I don't see
> why T-shirt suppliers would think that Medium is such an unusual size
> that they'd have to have a guarantee up front that enough people would
> fit them to make it worthwhile to have some available.
When I handled the T-shirt sales at Maplecon I based the order I gave the
printer on the numbers of presold shirt orders I had. If I had ten shirts
orderded in large I ordered fourty large. If I had 1 small ordered I woudl
order 6 small (6 was the minimum in any size) When I last took inventory
(before I handed it all over to the next sucker errr manager) I had more
small left than any other size. When Maplecon folded we ended up selling
off the old shirts at base cost and the smalls at half that.
>
>
>>I haven't seen Moshe's comment yet, but I'll relay what a couple of people who
>>make shirts for fannish events have told me: "Yes, we do get complaints that
>>we don't have enough small or medium t-shirts. But the people who want the
>>XXX-large want them enough that they order them _and pay_ in advance -- and the
>>people who want small t-shirts don't buy enough of them, nor do they let us
>>know early enough so we can come prepared."
>
> XXX-large shirts are a special order because (1) there aren't that many
> people out there who need them, and (2) they cost more because of the
> extra material. Size medium shirts should not have to fall into
> the special order category -- they don't cost more and there are many
> fans that size who would appreciate their availability.
I don't believe that the XXXL are any larger now than the old XXL were ten
years ago. I need the XXXL at many events of the shirts either choke me or
cut off the blood flow in my arms. other than that I could wear most XLs.
Joseph W. Casey
--
Major Makin vestai-Cheghjihtah-Kasara
may'ghom la', may' tengchaH Morath
ra'wI', Assault Squadron, Central Quadrant
Steel Fist Fleet KAG/KANADA
Moshe Feder
bad recently. Janice Gelb quotes a response from Loren to my comment
about shirt sizes, but I never saw Loren's message itself. My own comment
was "unavailable" just a day after I posted. Checking on Lise's system, I
see many more threads and articles. This is disturbing.
I'd be grateful if anyone responding to me here would also cc me by mail.
Just two comments on what's been said so far:
I think in most cases shirts are pre-ordered by cons based on their past
experience or best estimate. So pre-prepaying by some customers doesn't
really come up. However, for what it's worth, I have no problem prepaying
for shirts. That's what I do every three months with Freddie Baer. If
there was a preannouncement about these TAFF shirts, I wasn't aware of
it. I certainly would have spoken up if I had been. I do find it odd that
not only smalls but mediums were ruled out on the basis of the response.
Surely this must have been a skewed sample.
O.K., so cons claim small t-shirts don't sell. We can't require them to
lose money can we? However, I have to ask. Might there be a bit of
self-fulfilling prophecy going on here?
For example: five years ago TypicalCon ordered just a few smalls, based on
their gut feeling that most fans are big. The shirts sold out and most of
the people who might have bought were turned away. The following year,
some of those who were disappointed the first year didn't even try, and a
couple of smalls were left over. The third year, someone remembers those
left over smalls and decides to order fewer or none. Those who try to buy
smalls in the third year are out of luck even on the first day. By the
fourth year, most size small fans have concluded that smalls are never
available and there's no point in asking, or they settle for a shirt they
could camp out in, except for persistent loudmouths like me. When asked,
the TypicalCon committee explains that there's no demand for size small
shirts.
That scenario seems pretty plausible to me, and it's why I can't accept
the "we'd lose money on smalls" argument. Maybe they would lose money the
first year, but not after size small consumers realized their size was back.
Mr. Casey, I'm no more comfortable in an extra large shirt than you'd be
in a small, and I look ridiculous. I think I'm as entitled to a souvenir
of a con as you are. I'm sure my money's as good. I don't see any
defensible reason why cons should cater to you and not to me.
Joseph W. Casey
>
> Mr. Casey, I'm no more comfortable in an extra large shirt than you'd be
> in a small, and I look ridiculous. I think I'm as entitled to a souvenir
> of a con as you are. I'm sure my money's as good. I don't see any
> defensible reason why cons should cater to you and not to me.
The main difference, as I see it anyway, is that if I want a con t-shirt I
will preorder it so that; a) the convention knows that someone wants that
shirt and b) they have the money to use in the deposite for the shirts to
sell at the convention. If you wish the convention to 'cater' to you as it
does to me put the money up front.
It seems to me that you are asking for someting that I am not, that the
con risk the money it has to pay for the shirt by ordering extra shirts it
does not know if it will sell.
>
> --
> Moshe Feder ===> ===> ===> ===> mo...@amanda.dorsai.org
> Typos unintentionla >>>FIAWOL<<< 718-461-5302
lm...@bbs.tatertot.com
Moshe wrote the following:
> I think in most cases shirts are pre-ordered by cons based on their
> past experience or best estimate. So pre-prepaying by some customers
> doesn't really come up. However, for what it's worth, I have no
> problem prepaying for shirts. That's what I do every three months
> with Freddie Baer. If there was a preannouncement about these TAFF
> shirts, I wasn't aware of it. I certainly would have spoken up if I
> had been. I do find it odd that not only smalls but mediums were
> ruled out on the basis of the response.
> Surely this must have been a skewed sample.
Would it help if I had originally said "There are no small or medium t-shirts
LEFT?" The shirts have been on sale for quite some time, and the smalls and
mediums sold out. The number of small and medium t-shirts made originally was
based on the number of people who said they'd buy one if one were available.
Unfortunately, there were fewer people who said they'd buy one than people who
actually DID, whereas the number of people who said they'd want an xxx-large
shirt, and who actually ended up buying one, was ... er ... a pretty close fit.
There is no conspiracy against people who buy small t-shirts. It is just that,
over the years, fan vendors have found that if they order x number of small
t-shirts, they will have y number of small t-shirts left over that did not
sell, and so they've cut back on their ordering.
By the way, I wasn't aware of the every-three-month Freddie Baer shirt. Want
to post an address here?
dust....@bbs.tatertot.com
N> Observation: I've been to a lot of conventions at the Red Lion San
N> Jose, and although there have been occassional "emergencies," this is
N> the first time I've been through an evacuation.
NorWesCon, 1988.
---
This copy of Freddie 1.2.5 is being evaluated.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This is your karma: >Fold<>Fold<>Fold<...Look! Now it's a bunny!
dust....@bbs.tatertot.com
N> BayCon was not informed of this information. IF BayCon would have
N>been informed I would have made the statement about Terry.
Oh, I see. FLARE knew about this; I wonder why senior committee members
apparently did not, even after it happened? One can theorize that FLARE
did'nt *know* about the fan, or didn't think the incident was important
enough to report to Senior Committee. Either one of these possibilities
leaves a bad taste in my mouth...(pick pick pick... :->)
I know the fans didn't do it; fans generally leave the place in better
condition than they found it.
Moshe Feder
: Would it help if I had originally said "There are no small or medium
: t-shirts LEFT?" The shirts have been on sale for quite some time, and the
: smalls and mediums sold out. The number of small and medium t-shirts made
: originally was based on the number of people who said they'd buy one if
: one were available. Unfortunately, there were fewer people who said
: they'd buy one than people who actually DID, whereas the number of people
: who said they'd want an xxx-large shirt, and who actually ended up buying
: one, was ... er ... a pretty close fit.
Yes, that would have been clearer, and I'd have had less reason to
complain. I'm glad to see that your account confirms my belief that there
IS a fannish market for small and medium shirts. Unfortunately, the fact
that they were briefly available this time doesn't change the fact that
at many cons they aren't available at all. I had this problem most
recently at Corflu, where I've complained about it before, and where I am
hardly just another anonymous dissatisfied customer.
: There is no conspiracy against people who buy small t-shirts. It is
: just that, over the years, fan vendors have found that if they order x
: number of small t-shirts, they will have y number of small t-shirts left
: over that did not : sell, and so they've cut back on their ordering.
I would suggest, based on my experience and that of others who posted in
support of me, that they have over-reacted, and lost sales as a result.
: By the way, I wasn't aware of the every-three-month Freddie Baer shirt.
: Want to post an address here?
I didn't make myself clear. I, and the other member's of Freddie's
T-Shirt of the Month Club, pay on a quarterly basis for a shirt every
month. I believe she is looking for a few more subscribers, but I'd
better check with her before giving out her address here. I wouldn't want
her to be inundated by the Net. (I'll send it to you by e-mail.)
Moshe Feder
: Moshe Feder (mo...@news.dorsai.org) writes:
: >
: > Mr. Casey, I'm no more comfortable in an extra large shirt than you'd be
: > in a small, and I look ridiculous. I think I'm as entitled to a souvenir
: > of a con as you are. I'm sure my money's as good. I don't see any
: > defensible reason why cons should cater to you and not to me.
: The main difference, as I see it anyway, is that if I want a con t-shirt I
: will preorder it so that; a) the convention knows that someone wants that
: shirt and b) they have the money to use in the deposite for the shirts to
: sell at the convention. If you wish the convention to 'cater' to you as it
: does to me put the money up front.
I've already said here that I'm willing to prepay if I have to. Many cons
aren't set up for that, but I will make inquiries. Of course, I'm not
going to prepay unless I can know what I'll be getting. I own hundreds of
shirts and I'm not going to buy another sight unseen.
: It seems to me that you are asking for someting that I am not, that the
: con risk the money it has to pay for the shirt by ordering extra shirts it
: does not know if it will sell.
Funny, I thought anyone selling anything is always taking that risk. I'm
only asking that the risk be evaluated and apportioned fairly and
accurately. I don't want them to order 4 dozen smalls if they'll only
sell 3 dozen, anymore than I want them to order 3 dozen XLs if they can
sell 4 dozen. I just don't want any size constituency to be
disenfranchised because a con prefers to do the safe and lazy thing
and pretend that one size fits all.
Beyond that, I do find it strange that I should be asked to justify (or to
guarantee by prepayment) the availability of a standard size.
P.S.: Thank you for your courtesy in duplicating your post via e-mail.
Andrew C. Murdoch
> N> Observation: I've been to a lot of conventions at the Red Lion San
> N> Jose, and although there have been occassional "emergencies," this is
> N> the first time I've been through an evacuation.
>
> NorWesCon, 1988.
WesterCon 46,Seattle,1993. The entire Bellevue Red Lion
Inn,covention,fans,mundanes and all,took off after a fire alarm triggered
by faulty wiring. Loads of fun.
--
Hail,Centurion! "Love is that condition in which the happiness
Andrew C. Murdoch of another person is essential to your own."
bq...@freenet.carleton.ca - Robert A. Heinlein
Richard McAllister
>Yes, that would have been clearer, and I'd have had less reason to
>complain. I'm glad to see that your account confirms my belief that there
>IS a fannish market for small and medium shirts. Unfortunately, the fact
>that they were briefly available this time doesn't change the fact that
>at many cons they aren't available at all.
It's not a fannish thing; whenever T-shirts come out here at work
(quite often: "Sun Microsystems: it's not just a job -- it's a wardrobe")
they're always either only L and XL or even XL only. General decline
of western civilization, I guess.
Rich
--
Rich McAllister (r...@eng.sun.com)
Seth Breidbart
Joseph W. Casey <am...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>The main difference, as I see it anyway, is that if I want a con t-shirt I
>will preorder it
Which can be quite difficult, considering the number of conventions
(e.g. Lunacon) that don't take pre-orders for con t-shirts. I suspect
most conventions are that way, but the number that now allow ordering
in advance seems to be increasing.
> so that; a) the convention knows that someone wants that
>shirt
But I don't know if I want it until I've seen it.
Seth
Martin Schafer
>O.K., so cons claim small t-shirts don't sell. We can't require them to
>lose money can we? However, I have to ask. Might there be a bit of
>self-fulfilling prophecy going on here?
>
>For example: five years ago TypicalCon ordered just a few smalls, based on
>their gut feeling that most fans are big. The shirts sold out and most of
>the people who might have bought were turned away. The following year,
>some of those who were disappointed the first year didn't even try, and a
>couple of smalls were left over. The third year, someone remembers those
>left over smalls and decides to order fewer or none. Those who try to buy
>smalls in the third year are out of luck even on the first day. By the
>fourth year, most size small fans have concluded that smalls are never
>available and there's no point in asking, or they settle for a shirt they
>could camp out in, except for persistent loudmouths like me. When asked,
>the TypicalCon committee explains that there's no demand for size small
>shirts.
>
This scenario is not what happened/happens at Minicon. When we
first started doing t-shirts in the dim mists of the past we got
roughly similar numbers of small/medium/large/XL. The large
and XL sold out the first day, most of the smalls and some of
the mediums were left over. Even after years of experience, and
tweaking, you will find that most of our backlog of unsold shirts
are small and mediums.
Karen? Does Bruce have the actual numbers of different sizes
sold this last year?
My impression is that we currently make and sell more XLs than
anything else with larges and XXLs being next, mediums and XXXLs
next and smalls and XXXXLs next. I don't know that it's actually
a gaussian distribution around XL but I think that's a reasonable
approximation.
Martin
Kevin Standlee
>
> N> Observation: I've been to a lot of conventions at the Red Lion San
> N> Jose, and although there have been occassional "emergencies," this is
> N> the first time I've been through an evacuation.
>
> NorWesCon, 1988.
>
>
I meant at the Red Lion San Jose.
Besides the '88 Norwescon, the '93 Westercon at the Bellevue Red Lion had
an evacuation I went through. (I ended up in the kitchen because I was
in a service elevator when the alarm hit and the elevator went to the
ground floor.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Kevin Standlee -> (stan...@LunaCity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140
Mark E. Richards
Schafer) wrote:
> This scenario is not what happened/happens at Minicon. When we
> first started doing t-shirts in the dim mists of the past we got
> roughly similar numbers of small/medium/large/XL. The large
> and XL sold out the first day, most of the smalls and some of
> the mediums were left over. Even after years of experience, and
> tweaking, you will find that most of our backlog of unsold shirts
> are small and mediums.
>
> Karen? Does Bruce have the actual numbers of different sizes
> sold this last year?
>
> My impression is that we currently make and sell more XLs than
> anything else with larges and XXLs being next, mediums and XXXLs
> next and smalls and XXXXLs next. I don't know that it's actually
> a gaussian distribution around XL but I think that's a reasonable
> approximation.
This is taken from the report that Bruce turned in to treasury.
Ordered
6 small
10 medium
50 large
94 x-large
29 xx-large
24 xxx-large
12 xxxx-large
225 Total
Distribution
191 sold
8 given to Guests of Honor
25 given to the hotel
1 given to the artist
225 Total
And as to how many inquires he turned away after each size ran out, I
don't know.
Volunteer T-Shirts
4 small
16 medium
88 large
126 x-large
60 xx-large
36 xxx-large
330 Total
As to how many we have left, We will have to talk to Chris.
Mark Richards
--
********************************************************************
*
* Mark E. Richards rich...@gold.tc.umn.edu
*
* "He wears a hair shirt but is fussy about its cut."
* -Stanislaw J. Lec
*
GAR...@delphi.com
Quoting moshe from a message in rec.arts.sf.fandom
> : Would it help if I had originally said "There are no small or medium
> : t-shirts LEFT?" The shirts have been on sale for quite some time,
>and the : smalls and mediums sold out.
Come on, we all KNOW it's a conspiracy. Of course. Smokers, for example,
are actually aliens from Venus, where all the smog doesn't harm THEM, so
by smoking they are infecting US. And ordering too small a number of too
small a T-shirt is another part of the plot. (Eliot Shorter probably
wanted a small to use as a hand puppet. Come to think of it, is ES around
any more? I remember an SCA battle with Eliot, what a nightmare!)
I'm being foolish again, but is all this nonsense really worth the band-
width? I mean ... if they're sold out, they're sold out. End. -30-
ghl
Rainbow V 1.17.5 for Delphi - Test Drive
Kim Ann Innes
> slim are not recognized we could find ourselves in a mud-slinging contest
> that will make the zinefan vs. confan fight look like a sand-box squabble.
>
> Moshe Feder ===> ===> ===> ===> mo...@amanda.dorsai.org
> Typos unintentionla >>>FIAWOL<<< 718-461-5302
>
>>>>
Moshe:
I understand; I wear medium T-shirts myself and they are getting hard to find. However,
I've helped a few con dealers with their tables now and again and I fully understand why they
don't carry the samller sizes - people just don't buy them! The current fashion is for large,
loose T-shirts. As a matter of fact, the manufacturers have started over-sizing their shirts
to accommodate this, as a matter of fact - I have size large T-shirts that are a few years
old that are equivalent to current mediums.
From observation while working dealers tables, I would say that Large T-shirts sell the most,
XL next, XXL after that, XXXL after that, and Mediums might equal the sales of XXXXL (i.e.,
rare). Almost every time I've ever sold Small T-shirts, it was to people wanting shirts for children.
These dealers tie up their money in the inventory they bring to cons. As business people,
they have to have a reasonable expectation of being able to sell what they buy. The small
sizes just don't sell well enough to justify the investment of money, storage space, and gas
to transport them around from con to con until they finally sell.
I've found that a lot of the shops that produce T-shirts have completely stopped printing on shirts
smaller than size Large unless they are deliberately making childrens' shirts. The demand for the
small sizes just is not large enough for them to justify manufacturing them. If a manufacturer is
willing to make smaller sizes to order, they will generally cost the dealer much more because
they are a special order item and not out of general stock.
I know that all this doesn't help when you want shirts that fit, but maybe it helps to explain the
economic and social basis for the lack of smaller sizes. I'm sure I haven't covered all the
possible reasons that smaller sizes don't sell, but I can state from personal experience that
they don't (sell, that is).
"The Constitution is not perfect,
but it's a helluva lot better
than what we have now!"
Karen Cooper
>This scenario is not what happened/happens at Minicon. When we
>first started doing t-shirts in the dim mists of the past we got
>roughly similar numbers of small/medium/large/XL. The large
>and XL sold out the first day, most of the smalls and some of
>the mediums were left over. Even after years of experience, and
>tweaking, you will find that most of our backlog of unsold shirts
>are small and mediums.
>Karen? Does Bruce have the actual numbers of different sizes
>sold this last year?
He says ask him if you need them: schn...@counterpane.com.
The last shirt left of the lot was a small, however.
>My impression is that we currently make and sell more XLs than
>anything else with larges and XXLs being next, mediums and XXXLs
>next and smalls and XXXXLs next. I don't know that it's actually
>a gaussian distribution around XL but I think that's a reasonable
>approximation.
I will say that Bruce had in place a plan to prevent the disappointment
that Moshe writes about: He would have done a special-order print run of
either the volunteers shirt or of the convention shirt, and then mailed
the shirts to fen. As it happens, no one seemed to want a shirt who did
not also get one.
Karen. [like Moshe, doesn't want to buy a shirt unless she also likes it]
Seth Breidbart
For that matter, at the Allman Brothers concerts a few weeks back, the
t-shirts only came in L and XL. It's spreading.
Seth
Janice Gelb
Or individual audience members are spreading... :->
scri...@gold.tc.umn.edu
--
Having not gotten to Chris until Sunday I got a XL. That was all he
had left. So I can safely add it to my collection of neat shirts glad to
have gotten but don't really feel comfortable in. The same goes for my
t-shirt I got at the Melissa Etheridge concert. It was large too. But
this is why someone invented scissors.giggle.
-Shannon Leslie
--------------------------------------
Angel Face - scri...@gold.tc.umn.edu
--------------------------------------
Moshe Feder
: Come on, we all KNOW it's a conspiracy. Of course. Smokers, for example,
: are actually aliens from Venus, where all the smog doesn't harm THEM, so
: by smoking they are infecting US. And ordering too small a number of too
: small a T-shirt is another part of the plot. (Eliot Shorter probably
: wanted a small to use as a hand puppet. Come to think of it, is ES around
: any more? I remember an SCA battle with Eliot, what a nightmare!)
: I'm being foolish again, but is all this nonsense really worth the band-
: width? I mean ... if they're sold out, they're sold out. End. -30-
First of all, Gary, let me belatedly welcome you back. Although we didn't
have much (any?) interactions when you were active, I was certainly aware
of CANTICLES FROM LABOWITZ as a solid zine on the scene.
As to your comments: As I hope was clear from earlier articles in the
thread, it wasn't immediately obvious that it was a matter of the shirts
being sold out. It sounded more like there'd been a conscious decision
not to make them. That wasn't, in fact, what happened in this case, but
it _is_ what's happened many times. There may not be a conscious
conspiracy but there certainly is the equivalent effect from many people
being thoughtless in the same way.