Wanted: examples of "bad" fantasy
Lisa A Leutheuser
convention on Jan 21-23, and I'm looking for examples of bad
fantasy.
I have my thoughts on what constitutes a bad fantasy, and when I
started searching for examples I realized that I don't own anything
that I consider to be bad fantasy. All the "bad fantasies" are
books that I read in the school library and whose titles and authors
are blurred memories. The only ones that comes to mind are the
first Shannara books (then a trilogy), which has long been described
as a Tolkien rip-off.
Also, I recently skimmed a copy of _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_
(love the map), and I realized that I can't think of any books that
fit the cliches in the guide. Many books have a few of the items
listed in the guide; the items are so general that a medieval fantasy
can't avoid all of them. But there have to be books out there that
inspired DWJ to write the guide.
(I'm convinced that most of the items listed in the guide aren't
intrinsically bad; rather it's how they are used in the story that
makes them a signpost of bad fantasy.)
Specifically, I am looking for a few modestly sized books that I
can read over the next two weeks. I do not have the time or interest
to read monstrous bad fantasy series. They don't have to be recently
published; I'll be picking them up at a used bookstore.
Perhaps a few of the bad RPG-based fantasies would be good to get
as well? I'm a gamer who has never read any of the gaming novels,
and I don't know where to start. (I'm interested in the *better*
ones of the bad. If I'm going to subject myself to bad fantasies,
I don't want to have keep a bucket by the chair.)
I'm not interested in starting a debate or discussion of the specific
books; that'd be more appropriate to rasfw. I am interested in book
suggestions from other writers.
Feel free to email me if you don't want to publicly state "Book X
is a bad fantasy".
--
Lisa Leutheuser
eal (at) umich.edu
http://www.umich.edu/~eal
Rachel Brown
> Also, I recently skimmed a copy of _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_
> (love the map), and I realized that I can't think of any books that
> fit the cliches in the guide.
I think much of the Tough Guide was inspired by the collected works of
David Eddings and Mercedes Lackey. I can't think of any specific Lackey
titles, but you might try Eddings's first book, _Pawn of Prophecy_, if you
don't want to read a five-book series. You can pretty much predict the
rest of it from that one, anyway.
Perhaps I shouldn't mention it because I didn't actually read it, but while
flipping through Terry Goodkind's _Wizard's First Rule_ I discovered what
appeared to be a 100 page torture-and-BDSM scene in which the protagonist
addresses his dominatrix-torturer-wizardess-person as "Mistress." Unless
the rest of the book is better than _Lord of the Rings_, I'd say it's a
pretty safe bet for you.
And then you should read any late Xanth book. Again, I haven't read it, but
I don't see how you could possibly go wrong with _The Color of Her
Panties_.
And Gor. Can't leave out Gor.
Rachel
Looney
peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
other thing...
Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped / flung
/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I like
it to live on its own...
Am I missing some good fantasy? Yeah, maybe...but I've got tons of reading to
do anyway, can't keep up...
Anthony "Looney" Toohey
Yehoota on chess.net/FICS/Yahoo
_______________________________
If I see one more quote of that stupid
bathing gnat drowning elephant thing...
Jouni Karhu
>Lisa A Leutheuser <e...@umich.edu> wrote in article
>> Also, I recently skimmed a copy of _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_
>> (love the map), and I realized that I can't think of any books that
>> fit the cliches in the guide.
>
>I think much of the Tough Guide was inspired by the collected works of
>David Eddings and Mercedes Lackey. I can't think of any specific Lackey
>titles, but you might try Eddings's first book, _Pawn of Prophecy_, if you
>don't want to read a five-book series. You can pretty much predict the
>rest of it from that one, anyway.
And "Last Herald Mage trilogy" by Lackey. That one was bad. Well,
obviously all of this is IMHO.
>Perhaps I shouldn't mention it because I didn't actually read it, but while
>flipping through Terry Goodkind's _Wizard's First Rule_ I discovered what
>appeared to be a 100 page torture-and-BDSM scene in which the protagonist
>addresses his dominatrix-torturer-wizardess-person as "Mistress." Unless
>the rest of the book is better than _Lord of the Rings_, I'd say it's a
>pretty safe bet for you.
Just as an aside, how does _that_ make it "bad" fantasy? Of course,
the book isn't _that_ well written, and has its problems, but I
thought the S/M sequence was a refreshing change.
>And then you should read any late Xanth book. Again, I haven't read it, but
>I don't see how you could possibly go wrong with _The Color of Her
>Panties_.
>
>And Gor. Can't leave out Gor.
"Baker's Boy" (and the other books in the series) was, IMHO, bad
fantasy as well. I didn't quite manage to finish all of it, but it had
the prophecy, the boy with destiny, evil wizard, and whatnot. In
addition, the plot was following a sine curve, everything returning to
where it began at least a couple of times (Oh, she is running away
_again_! Oh, she was caught _again_!).
--
'I have something to say! | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o JJ Karhu
It is better to burn out, | -=========================OxxxxxxxxxxxO
than to fade away!' | kur...@modeemi.cs.tut.fi /o
Andrea
news:38808b43...@news.cc.tut.fi...
> "Baker's Boy" (and the other books in the series) was, IMHO, bad
> fantasy as well. I didn't quite manage to finish all of it, but it had
> the prophecy, the boy with destiny, evil wizard, and whatnot. In
> addition, the plot was following a sine curve, everything returning to
> where it began at least a couple of times (Oh, she is running away
> _again_! Oh, she was caught _again_!).
I have to agree with this. I only bought the first one in the series and
found it appallingly predictable and annoying. I kept wanting to hit the
female lead, which is not a great sign.
A
Richard A. Brooks
>
> I'm on a "The signposts of Bad Fantasy" panel at a local sf
> convention on Jan 21-23, and I'm looking for examples of bad
> fantasy.
>
John Jakes wrote several about Brak the Barbarian. (Seriously) Brak
was a Conan clone. I think all had Brak in the title.
Lin Carter wrote about Thongor. Wizard of Lemuria was the first. The
rest had Thongor in the title. Conan / Edgar Rice Burroughs. I think
it was the first novel in which the airboats were run by a perpetual
motion engine.
The late Buck Coulson (fanzine YANDRO) thought that a bad flaw. I
pointed out that perpetual motion was just another fantasy element. I
was surprised to get a printable reply.
--Rick
Magnus Olsson
Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
>other thing...
>
>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped / flung
>/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>
>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I like
>it to live on its own...
I think this is a bit of a non sequitur: just because our world
co-exists in with the fantasy world in the same book doesn't mean that
the fantasy world can't live on its own. Or vice versa. How much
fantasy have you read where the fictional world isn't rather
derivative of the real world (like, people dressing as 14th century
Englishmen, the social structure being modeled on 13th century France,
the language being very similar to modern Welsh)?
>Am I missing some good fantasy?
To name just two examples, you're missing _Nine Princes in Amber_ and
the _Fionavar_ trilogy.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------
Erol K Bayburt
wilyk...@cs.comkillspam (Looney) wrote:
>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
>other thing...
>
>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
flung
>/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
Since my current WI(glacial)P uses this device, I feel I ought to defend it:
It's an old and honorable trope dating back to at least *A Connecticut
Yankee* and John Carter.
Of course, those two works used *19th* century guys schlurped into the
fantasy world, and my WIP uses a *21st* century guy schlurped into the
fantasy world, so I suppose one could say "that's different!" :-)
>
>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I
like
>it to live on its own...
Are you talking about the way most such fantasy worlds are "parasites",
taking people, ideas, and stuff from the real world without giving anything
back, or do you mean something different by "depend on"?
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com (mail drop)
Er...@ix.netcom.com (surfboard)
Heather Anne Nicoll
> Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
> flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
And, without any comprehension of what's going on, manages to save it
from the Dire and Horrible Peril, through some ineffable quality that is
never quite adequately explained, often having to do with a prophecy.
They do get to be a bit much.
> I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I
> like it to live on its own...
Mmm. Consider some of the legendry of Faerie and the lands Under the
Hill, where the 'fantasy world' was interlaced with the real world,
connected at some points, influenced by and influencing the real world,
but rendered utterly separate by some factor.
I'm working on about three things that have sort of a parallel reality
style world, without falling into the hackneyed convention of the
tennis-shoe wearing kid suddenly getting carried into dragon-land and
winning the princess's love and other such overdone conventions.
One is dealing with the interlaced world concept of faerie.
One has the worlds as more parallel entities, with the 'magical'
creatures being unable to comfortably live in 'reality' for entirely
consistent and explicable reasons, but occasional humans cross the
barrier, and occasionally the magical creatures slip over for a limited
amount of time to see what the rest of the universe has been up to.
One has the fantasy elements entirely within the 'real' world, but
uncommon due to a sort of paradigmatic interference - everyone knows
there's no such thing as a... so reports of seeing one get ignored, or
glossed over, sort of in a Men in Black or DeLintish way.
At least one of these was begun because I got frustrated with hackneyed
parallel-world type plots and decided I'd do it right, with things like
reasons that the magic people don't go buzz humanity other than 'the
magic doesn't let them cross the barrier'.
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.dslonramp.net/~darkhawk/
"This is not a Y-2-clay gitch!" - News announcer on Boston's Channel 5
Ian A. York
Heather Anne Nicoll <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>> Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
>> flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>
>And, without any comprehension of what's going on, manages to save it
>from the Dire and Horrible Peril, through some ineffable quality that is
>never quite adequately explained, often having to do with a prophecy.
My WIP has a couple of variants on this ... one central character, who
never actually appears, was schlurped through into the fantasy world.
Didn't actually save it, but he did make a fortune, get knighted, and
settle down on a nice estate.
Vaudeville. A whole universe that's never heard your jokes!
The further I get on this WIP, the more I think the next book is going to
be the reverse, a character from the fantasy world who gets schlurped
through into this one, on a minor non-world-saving mission.
Ian
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Brenda
Lisa A Leutheuser wrote:
> Specifically, I am looking for a few modestly sized books that I
> can read over the next two weeks. I do not have the time or interest
> to read monstrous bad fantasy series. They don't have to be recently
> published; I'll be picking them up at a used bookstore.
>
For the first time in my life, I can wholeheartedly and without
reservation recommend the Gor novels to you. Try for one of the later
ones, when the author's obsessions have really spun out of control and he
refused to be copyedited. Guaranteed, if you open one at any page and
begin to read, you will find what you're looking for.
This has also been successfully tried with the works of L. Ron., but
perhaps they'd count as science fiction and wouldn't meet your needs.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Magnus Olsson
>In article <1e4c9f6.ipk2zn70x4ctN%dark...@mindspring.com>,
>Heather Anne Nicoll <dark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>>> Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
>>> flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
(...)
>The further I get on this WIP, the more I think the next book is going to
>be the reverse, a character from the fantasy world who gets schlurped
>through into this one, on a minor non-world-saving mission.
Or (to connect nicely with the recent thread about changelings), there's
Zelazny's _Changeling_ (and its sequel), where two people from our
world and the fantasy world are exchanged.
Helgi Briem
<rabr...@locl.net> wrote:
>Lisa A Leutheuser wrote:
>>
>> I'm on a "The signposts of Bad Fantasy" panel at a local sf
>> convention on Jan 21-23, and I'm looking for examples of bad
>> fantasy.
>>
><multi-snip>
>
>John Jakes wrote several about Brak the Barbarian. (Seriously) Brak
>was a Conan clone. I think all had Brak in the title.
>
IMHO, the two Brak books I read way back in the mists of
time were a lot better than most of the Conan books.
For some reason probably related to adolescent testosterone
I once read a whole lot of them. Brak was a lot smarter
than Conan for one thing. I never found more than the
2, otherwise I might have read all of them. I'm not sure
I would rate Brak as highly today as my tastes have
changed a bit, but still, they were better than their
titles would indicate.
Now Gor, those are really indescribably awful.
Julie Lim
e...@umich.edu (Lisa A Leutheuser) wrote:
> I'm on a "The signposts of Bad Fantasy" panel at a local sf
> convention on Jan 21-23, and I'm looking for examples of bad
> fantasy.
>
> Specifically, I am looking for a few modestly sized books that I
> can read over the next two weeks. I do not have the time or interest
> to read monstrous bad fantasy series. They don't have to be recently
> published; I'll be picking them up at a used bookstore.
>
> as well? I'm a gamer who has never read any of the gaming novels,
> and I don't know where to start. (I'm interested in the *better*
> ones of the bad. If I'm going to subject myself to bad fantasies,
> I don't want to have keep a bucket by the chair.)
Surely you don't have to eat a whole egg to know if it's rotten?
My SO, bless his heart, adores what I can only describe as Extruded
Fantasy Product. I've tried to read some of them, generally without
success. ("She tried and failed?" "She tried and died.")
Without naming names, and wincing as I consider how closely these
criteria may describe either of my two WIPs, here's a short list of
common qualities, if that's the right word for it:
1.) Generic kinda-medieval setting, sanitized for your protection.
People live in drafty castles or snug villages or walled towns, with or
without socks, but have standards of food, clothing, and sanitation
comparable to modern suburbia. They have surprising literacy rates as
well. Addition of non-medieval goods such as potatoes and chocolate is
a bonus, as is the use of silk, velvet, and other luxury fabrics at a
decidedly non-luxury frequency.
2.) Generic hero, often a young lad who wanders through the first
chapter without showing any special talent, inclinations, or
personality. All his rough edges have been machine-tooled off so that
theoretically, any fool can identify with him without having any
uncomfortable points of difference poke out through the ribs.
3.) Generic Evil Overlord, often in a Manichaean context-- the Creator
sealed him off, or cast him into the outer darkness, and now he wants
to get back in with the aid of his human(oid) pawns, which only Generic
Hero can stop, because the Creator doesn't directly dabble in his
creation any more. Or the EO is a power-hungry mortal
magician/priest/king who aspires to Take Over The World. (The other
variant is a political scenario in which good and evil are less
polarized, since both sides are scheming merrily and they're only
squabbling over local real estate, but it's still pretty clear where
the reader's sympathies are meant to lie.)
Sigh. Generally, I like my SO's taste in SF, but his fantasy reading is
just not my bag. Then again, my taste in fantasy (e.g., Tanith Lee)
sends him hiding under the covers.
--
('^, * womba...@yahoo.com (NB: my real username has no dot) *
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Patricia Novak
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Jouni Karhu wrote:
> "Baker's Boy" (and the other books in the series) was, IMHO, bad
> fantasy as well. I didn't quite manage to finish all of it, but it had
> the prophecy, the boy with destiny, evil wizard, and whatnot. In
> addition, the plot was following a sine curve, everything returning to
> where it began at least a couple of times (Oh, she is running away
> _again_! Oh, she was caught _again_!).
Well, I liked this series quite a bit. It had a lot of the standard
fantasy tropes, but then I don't find those troublesome in a fantasy
novel. What I enjoyed about the book was the characterization. I was
interested enough to see what happened to the various people that I
finished the three-book volume and then wished it were longer. There was
a lot of humor in the book, also, which I enjoyed. But tastes vary, of
course.
Patricia
David Given
dark...@mindspring.com (Heather Anne Nicoll) writes:
[...]
> I'm working on about three things that have sort of a parallel reality
> style world, without falling into the hackneyed convention of the
> tennis-shoe wearing kid suddenly getting carried into dragon-land and
> winning the princess's love and other such overdone conventions.
>
> One is dealing with the interlaced world concept of faerie.
>
> One has the worlds as more parallel entities, with the 'magical'
> creatures being unable to comfortably live in 'reality' for entirely
> consistent and explicable reasons, but occasional humans cross the
> barrier, and occasionally the magical creatures slip over for a limited
> amount of time to see what the rest of the universe has been up to.
_A Hawk In Silver_, Mary Gentle. One of the *grimmest* YA fantasies I've
ever read.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
| Play: dgi...@iname.com |
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
William Burns
wrote:
>(snip)"The Woods Out Back" by R.A. Salvatore
>I don't know if that meets your requirements :) It was far better
>written than that chapter of _Rockiods_. I could see a teenage boy
>enjoying it more than a 23-year-old female.
I think it would. IIRC, this is the one where the Haggis, in the
fantasy world, is a large, dangerous, and ravenous beast; whereas in
the real world it is a small, lovable, furry creature native to
Scotland.
--
William
Another 355 days, then it's "Welcome to the Third."
Mark D. McKean
(Magnus Olsson) wrote:
> To name just two examples, you're missing _Nine Princes in Amber_ and
> the _Fionavar_ trilogy.
Haven't read _Fionavar_, but _Nine Princes in Amber_ doesn't exactly fit
that bill...our "real world" is very much an integral part of that
universe. And the protagonist cannot, by any stretch, be called a
"normal" guy. :-)
--
Mark D. McKean - The Quantum Panda - qpa...@iwaynet.net
Miche Doherty
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:44:48 -0600, SLMonkey <slmo...@enteract.com>
> wrote:
>
>> (snip)"The Woods Out Back" by R.A. Salvatore
>
>> I don't know if that meets your requirements :) It was far better
>> written than that chapter of _Rockiods_. I could see a teenage boy
>> enjoying it more than a 23-year-old female.
>
> I think it would. IIRC, this is the one where the Haggis, in the
> fantasy world, is a large, dangerous, and ravenous beast; whereas in
> the real world it is a small, lovable, furry creature native to
> Scotland.
Sadly endangered now, due to the Scots' habit of stuffing its innards into a
sheep's stomach and wearing its fur as a sporran.
And oooooh . . .
William McGonagall
Erol K Bayburt
Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>For the first time in my life, I can wholeheartedly and without
>reservation recommend the Gor novels to you. Try for one of the later
>ones, when the author's obsessions have really spun out of control and he
>refused to be copyedited. Guaranteed, if you open one at any page and
>begin to read, you will find what you're looking for.
My take on the Gor novels is that they're the moonshine whiskey of SF:
They're of uneven and generally low quality, they have a strong flavor that
many readers find nasty, consuming them can make you feel ill, they have a
disreputable air that make people quick to condem them but ashamed to say
they like them - and they pack a 100 proof emotional punch. This last causes
people to have exaggerated reactions toward them: A few readers become
addicted; more have a Carry-Nation-like reaction (they want to take a
hatchet to the stuff).
Hedgehog
> >Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
> >peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
> >other thing...
> >
> >/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
> >Am I missing some good fantasy?
>
> To name just two examples, you're missing _Nine Princes in Amber_ and
> the _Fionavar_ trilogy.
Except that _Nine Princes_ doesn't follow that pattern: we start in what we
laughable call the "real world", true, but the protagonist is *not* a "regular,
everyday 20th century guy". Which becomes apparent pretty quickly.
--
Just-reread-the-first-series Hedgehog
Jouni Karhu
And, in the same vein, in _Fionavar Tapestry_, some of the main
characters aren't exactly regular every-day people either.
Dan Goodman
The analogy doesn't work for me, because my reaction is boredom.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Looney
>>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than
>>
>>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>
It's an old and honorable trope dating back to at least *A Connecticut
>Yankee* and John Carter.
I certainly wouldn't want you to be discouraged from your efforts due to the
opinion of a rather odd fellow (that would be me...) I probably won't plunk
down $7 to buy it, though it might be quite good...
Then again, there was once a time in my life when I wouldn't listen to opera,
so who knows :-)
>
>Of course, those two works used *19th* century guys schlurped into the
>fantasy world, and my WIP uses a *21st* century guy schlurped into the
>fantasy world, so I suppose one could say "that's different!" :-)
:-)
>>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I
like it to live on its own...
>
>Are you talking about the way most such fantasy worlds are "parasites",
>taking people, ideas, and stuff from the real world without giving anything
back, or do you mean something different by "depend on"?
The idea that the 'hero' of the story doesn't come from the realm itself, that
there is no "native" person/being who can achieve the results necessary to save
the world/save the kingdom/save the person/save the artifact/ or whatever...
It just doesn't work for me, and for me in particular...
A couple of folks have mentioned GGK's "Fionavar Tapestry." After reading
Tigana, which was stupendous, I broke my rule and bought all three volumes... I
got about 60 pages into it, and that one element of the plot was just egging at
me... I didn't like it, I couldn't suspend my disbelief... I took all three
books to the used bookstore and never looked back...
I jus' can't help it :-)
Looney
>Date: 1/13/00 2:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <85k8c4$q0g$1...@bartlet.df.lth.se>
>
>In article <20000113021939...@ng-bg1.news.cs.com>,
>Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
>>other thing...
>>
>>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
>flung
>>/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>>
like>it to live on its own...
>
>co-exists in with the fantasy world in the same book doesn't mean that
>the fantasy world can't live on its own.
Perhaps I wasn't as concise as I should have been. It's the idea that the
realm in question needs someone from another world, outside it's own, shall we
say, sphere, to save it's collective arse...
>Or vice versa. How much
>fantasy have you read where the fictional world isn't rather
>derivative of the real world (like, people dressing as 14th century
>Englishmen, the social structure being modeled on 13th century France,
>the language being very similar to modern Welsh)?
Certainly plenty, but that derivative work doesn't necessarily depend on
someone from another world to save it. It's kind of sad that no one who is
native to that realm has what it takes to be the "hero..."
All MHO...
Anne M. Marble
> <stuff about "The Baker's Boy">
<snipped to save room>
Have you been to J.V. Jones' web site? She has lots of humorous bits
there. Especially in the Bodger & Grift stuff -- including a free
screen saver.
Here's the URL:
http://jvj.com/
There's a fantasy quiz -- and I learned stuff from it! (I didn't know
David Farland was Dave Wolverton!) I got enough points to earn me
"Apprentice-Master, Gandalf Level."
For Bodger & Grift stuff, hop directly to:
http://jvj.com/bakerbg.html
Anne M. Marble
"Richard A. Brooks" <rabr...@locl.net> wrote:
> >
> >John Jakes wrote several about Brak the Barbarian. (Seriously)
Brak
> >was a Conan clone. I think all had Brak in the title.
> >
> IMHO, the two Brak books I read way back in the mists of
> time were a lot better than most of the Conan books.
I liked the Brak books, too. I think they've gotten a lot of heat
because they were considered Conan, uhm, tributes. But the lone
barbarian hero is a rich vein that has still has plenty of gold in it.
Too bad John Jakes didn't stay in the SF field. He wouldn't have as
much money, but he might have written some truly interesting stuff.
Somewhere, I have a book on tape version of one of the Brak books,
read by (get this!) Roger Zelazny! The company that made them was in
New Mexico, right near where he lived. They also did tapes of some of
his own books, I think. Anyway, that was fun to listen to. :->
> For some reason probably related to adolescent testosterone
> I once read a whole lot of them.
I read a lot of them because of adolescent estrogen. (Hey, the guys in
Teen Beat magazine were too young and pretty. I wasn't into pretty
boys -- then.)
> Now Gor, those are really indescribably awful.
John Norman, the only man who could make bondage boring... I've heard
the earlier books were much better, but I never got far enough to
tell.
Mark A. Brown
*SNIP*
>>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
flung
>>/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I
like
>>it to live on its own...
There's an example of opinion; I love those stories where the fantasy world
echoes/coexists with our world.
The best example I can think of is _Warriors Of Virtue_ (the spin-off
young-adults book series, not the film). At one point, the real-world
("Outlander") human has a minor epiphany when he realizes that the
constellations in Tao are exactly the same as the constellations from Earth,
making him realize that Tao and Earth exist in the same place. . .
>I think this is a bit of a non sequitur: just because our world
>co-exists in with the fantasy world in the same book doesn't mean that
>the fantasy world can't live on its own.
*SNIP*
Agreed, WoV is based on Chinese legends/myths, but has elements from various
other sources as well.
Mark
"Virtue of Wisdom, Power of FIRE!" -Chi
Mark A. Brown
*SNIP*
>I think it would. IIRC, this is the one where the Haggis, in the
>fantasy world, is a large, dangerous, and ravenous beast; whereas in
>the real world it is a small, lovable, furry creature native to
>Scotland.
Like a Scottish Tribble.
Mark
"The Tribble With Troubles"
Mark A. Brown
<1e4c9f6.ipk2zn70x4ctN%dark...@mindspring.com>...
*SNIP*
>One is dealing with the interlaced world concept of faerie.
I have a short story drifting about looking for a publisher tha kind of
touches on that. Since I like the Universe I've created/interpreted, I plan
on doing several stories there, touching on the barriers between the magic
and the "real."
>One has the worlds as more parallel entities, with the 'magical'
>creatures being unable to comfortably live in 'reality' for entirely
>consistent and explicable reasons, but occasional humans cross the
>barrier, and occasionally the magical creatures slip over for a limited
>amount of time to see what the rest of the universe has been up to.
That's in mine too! The concept is that magic has withdrawn (around the time
of the Roman/Christian conquest of Britain, but I haven't set an actual
chain-of-events yet) but still exists, like a sort of underground. The key
point in the withdrawal was the Dragon War, that marked mankind's betrayal
of, well, you know.
>One has the fantasy elements entirely within the 'real' world, but
>uncommon due to a sort of paradigmatic interference - everyone knows
>there's no such thing as a... so reports of seeing one get ignored, or
>glossed over, sort of in a Men in Black or DeLintish way.
What are you, telepathic? Mine deals with perception, how a young child will
see something, and then learn to believe their parents/teachers/older
friends/whatever when they tell them repeatedly that _______ don't exist,
and to stop daydreaming. Some people have a natural talent to see Reality.
Mark
"Always explaining, never explained."
Heather Anne Nicoll
> What are you, telepathic?
No. That's one of my characters.
Well, two.
Actually, lots. But that universe breeds them.
I'm just overanalytical. ;)
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.dslonramp.net/~darkhawk/
Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind.
- "Ruby Tuesday," The Rolling Stones
David T. Anderson
wrote:
>
> > Now Gor, those are really indescribably awful.
>
> John Norman, the only man who could make bondage boring... I've heard
> the earlier books were much better, but I never got far enough to tell.
Yes, the first 6 books were quite good, after which they went downhill
fast. I read up to about book 10 and gave up hope.
Nevertheless, I would defend the earlier books...Priest-Kings [#3] was
pretty good S-F, and Assassin [#5] was an excellently realized
barbarian fantasy...
David T. Anderson
Calgary, Alberta
Patricia Novak
On Sat, 15 Jan 2000, Anne M. Marble wrote:
> Have you been to J.V. Jones' web site? She has lots of humorous bits
> there. Especially in the Bodger & Grift stuff -- including a free
> screen saver.
>
> Here's the URL:
> http://jvj.com/
Thanks. I had found this site already, yes. After I read Baker's Boy,
I did a web search on her name. It is a neat site.
> There's a fantasy quiz -- and I learned stuff from it! (I didn't know
> David Farland was Dave Wolverton!) I got enough points to earn me
> "Apprentice-Master, Gandalf Level."
At NASFIC last summer, she gave a fantasy quiz out at Warner's session. I
did well enough on it to be one of the people who won a copy of _A Cavern
of Black Ice_. (I have a couple of degrees in English, focus on Medieval
and Romantic literature so I did well on those questions -- not as well on
the more up-to-date ones.) It was a fun presentation.
I haven't read the book yet, as I don't like to start a series until I
have all the books in it, so I can't comment on the quality of this series
yet.
Patricia
Magnus Olsson
Rachel Brown <r.ph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Lisa A Leutheuser <e...@umich.edu> wrote in article
>>
>> Also, I recently skimmed a copy of _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_
>> (love the map), and I realized that I can't think of any books that
>> fit the cliches in the guide.
>
>I think much of the Tough Guide was inspired by the collected works of
>David Eddings and Mercedes Lackey. I can't think of any specific Lackey
>titles, but you might try Eddings's first book, _Pawn of Prophecy_, if you
>don't want to read a five-book series.
I'm not so sure about Eddings.
OK, his books are full of cliches and stereotypes. But my impression
is that surprisingly many of them are *original* stereotypes (how's
that for an oxymoron?). What I mean is that Eddings tends to invent a
reasonably original character, or setting, or plot device, and then
re-use it until you can't keep all the clones apart. He's derivative
of his own work, as it were.
OK, he does use a number of the classic cliches as well, like the
all-powerful thieves' guild (invented by Leiber, or was it a cliche
already in Fafhrd and Gray Mouser?) and the Anglo-Saxon Nomads. Not
to mention the generic medieval settings.
So is Eddings an example of Bad Fantasy? Depends on your definition of
bad, of course, but if you mean "fantasy that exemplifies all the
classic cliches of the genres" you're a bit off the mark.
BTW, I think this "Bad Fantasy" would be the analogue of pulp Sci-Fi,
wouldn't it?
Magnus Olsson
Hedgehog <e...@electric-hedgehog.net> wrote:
>In article <85k8c4$q0g$1...@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson
><URL:mailto:m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>> Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>> >Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>> >peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
>> >other thing...
>> >
>> >/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>
>>
>> To name just two examples, you're missing _Nine Princes in Amber_ and
>> the _Fionavar_ trilogy.
>
>Except that _Nine Princes_ doesn't follow that pattern: we start in what we
>laughable call the "real world", true, but the protagonist is *not* a "regular,
>everyday 20th century guy". Which becomes apparent pretty quickly.
Yes, but I'm afraid Looney might have chucked the book before that
point.
Magnus Olsson
Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>>From: m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
>>>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... >>I
>like>it to live on its own...
>>
>>co-exists in with the fantasy world in the same book doesn't mean that
>>the fantasy world can't live on its own.
>
>realm in question needs someone from another world, outside it's own, shall we
>say, sphere, to save it's collective arse...
I see what you mean, but I think this can be done more or less skillfully;
if the "ordinary world" and the "fantasy world" both turn out to be parts
of a fantasy "metaverse" (as in the Amber books), you could just widen
your definition of "fantasy world".
>>Or vice versa. How much
>>fantasy have you read where the fictional world isn't rather
>>derivative of the real world (like, people dressing as 14th century
>>Englishmen, the social structure being modeled on 13th century France,
>>the language being very similar to modern Welsh)?
>
>Certainly plenty, but that derivative work doesn't necessarily depend on
>someone from another world to save it. It's kind of sad that no one who is
>native to that realm has what it takes to be the "hero..."
OK. I see your point: books where this is literally true (the fantasy
world contains nobody able to solve its problems, but Joe Average from
our world can solve it just because) would probably be rather bad.
But what if the author has some compelling reason why this should be
so? I don't mean just hackneyed stuff like "anybody from a world with
20th century technology can whip the medieval guys", but a book where
the author has really created a larger world which contains both the
fantasy world and something similar to ours?
Danny Sichel
> Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
> peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than any
> other thing...
> Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped / flung
> / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
Heh.
One of mine involves a guy who gets whatevered into the fantasy world...
But he's not the first.
They've been doing this on a regular basis for over three hundred years,
and they've got the "convincing the outworlder to help us" routine
perfect.
Patricia Novak
Someone told me that a recent study established that low levels of a
horomone or brain chemical have been found in boys who abuse animals and
exhibit other signs of becoming sociopaths. Unfortunately, the person
remembered nothing more. Does anyone have a reference on this, or know
more about the subject?
Thanks in advance.
Patricia
Alma Hromic
<ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>Patricia Novak <duf...@mail.aburn> wrote:
>> <stuff about "The Baker's Boy">
><snipped to save room>
>
>Have you been to J.V. Jones' web site? She has lots of humorous bits
>there. Especially in the Bodger & Grift stuff -- including a free
>screen saver.
>
>Here's the URL:
>http://jvj.com/
>
>There's a fantasy quiz -- and I learned stuff from it! (I didn't know
>David Farland was Dave Wolverton!) I got enough points to earn me
>"Apprentice-Master, Gandalf Level."
heh heh heh
i'm a balrog <g>
but it was easy enough - gimme questions on tolkien and i'll score ok.
did you know, by the way, that the house he was born in in
Bloemfontein, South Africa, was razed to make way for... a
supermarket?
(honest truth...)
A.
***************
"The difference between journalism and literature
is that journalism is unreadable
and literature is unread."
Oscar Wilde
Patricia Novak
On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Graydon wrote:
> I am; Eddings is unquestionably bad fantasy, becuase the societies do
> not reflect in any way their nominal economies.
True. And the economies, to my mind, didn't make sense of and by
themselves, either. Like the slave pens in one of the places visisted.
The slaves seemed to serve no useful purpose that I can recall. And the
farm, where Belgarion grew up, struck me as off kilter somehow. It's
been a while since I read this series, so my memories of what exactly was
wrong on the farm are fuzzy, but I'm an agricultural econonomist and farm
stuff that isn't quite right will jump to my attention, like the hay bales
in Jordan's WoT.
> One can make a case for the Eddingses having written good _fable_,
> which isn't supposed to be about somewhere else, although I must say
> the degree of gender and culture absolutism in the books in question
> is not at all to my taste.
I agree with you on this, too, and yet I still enjoyed this series. I
liked some of the characters and the plot moved along well enough that I
kept on reading. It was a fun, "mind candy" kind of read for me.
I couldn't get through his next series, though. As someone else said, it
seemed to repeat his earlier material.
Patricia
Rachael Lininger
Patricia Novak <duf...@mail.aburn> wrote:
>Someone told me that a recent study established that low levels of a
>horomone or brain chemical have been found in boys who abuse animals and
>exhibit other signs of becoming sociopaths. Unfortunately, the person
>remembered nothing more. Does anyone have a reference on this, or know
>more about the subject?
Cortisol. I read it in Salon's Health Log.
"In a study, published in Thursday's Archives of General
Psychiatry, University of Chicago assistant professor Keith McBurnett,
Ph. D., and his colleagues have found that young boys who were
persistently aggressive had lower levels ofcortisol in their saliva."
It was interesting, and I've been generally very impressed with Salon's
writings on medical issues.
Rachael
--
Rachael Lininger | "It's good to know an assassin
lininger@ | you can hire with a can of tuna fish."
chem.wisc.edu | --Rocco da Mallet
Jon Hendry
Patricia Novak wrote in message ...
>
>
>Someone told me that a recent study established that low levels of a
>horomone or brain chemical have been found in boys who abuse animals and
>exhibit other signs of becoming sociopaths. Unfortunately, the person
>remembered nothing more. Does anyone have a reference on this, or know
>more about the subject?
I believe it's a chemical found in saliva.
Check http://www.eurekalert.com, and you should find something.
Patricia Novak
Thanks very much! That gives me everything I need to find the article.
Patricia
Patricia Novak
On Sun, 16 Jan 2000, Jon Hendry wrote:
> Check http://www.eurekalert.com, and you should find something.
Yup, they have a nice summary of the article. Great site. Thanks.
I've bookmarked it for future use.
Patricia
Graydon
[bad fantasy]
I am; Eddings is unquestionably bad fantasy, becuase the societies do
not reflect in any way their nominal economies.
One can make a case for the Eddingses having written good _fable_,
which isn't supposed to be about somewhere else, although I must say
the degree of gender and culture absolutism in the books in question
is not at all to my taste.
--
"I call thee by the most modest terms, for I am one of the gentle ones
that will use the devil himself with courtesy." -- Feste, :Twelfth Night:
Eliali
with him - especially since he recycled the plot of the Belgariad in every
other thing he wrote. And *then* I read an interview or something (on the
net somewhere) where he said that he only wrote fantasy for the money, and
that Tolkien was an old relic (or something along those lines) and was
*bad*!!!!! He actually said something like - he was trying to get published
in suspense or action or something, saw Tolkien was in the 70th print and
thought if that ancient rubbish could still be in print he (Eddings) could
make more money in fantasy. I promptly gave away all my Eddings books and
I'll never read any again. Anyone who says Tolkien is badly written...! I
can agree if people say there are 2D characters, etc, but badly written is
so far off the mark! anyway, enough ranting...
Jenny
Magnus Olsson
Graydon <anga...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> scripsit:
>[bad fantasy]
>> I'm not so sure about Eddings.
>
>I am; Eddings is unquestionably bad fantasy, becuase the societies do
>not reflect in any way their nominal economies.
You're quoting me out of context; I meant I wasn't sure that Eddings
what was the original poster was looking for when *she* said she
wanted examples of '"bad" fantasy'.
But apart from that I agree with you. Eddings also has a very odd way
of ignoring cultural change - i think it was in "Polgara" where he
follows a society through a thousand years of history. Polgara
essentially creates one of the countries and rules it through
tremendous political changes - but the way its inhabitants speak,
dress and behave doesn't change one iota during that time.
This is not a flaw exlusingly of Eddings', of course. It strikes me
now and then when reading fantasy set in "generic medieval" settings
that the various real-world phenomena adopted by fantasy writers: a
particular brand of feudalism, armoured knights, troubadours, people
dressed in hose and doublets, whatever, only existed for a fairly
short period of time (nevermind that the elements also often didn't
exist at the same time in the real world). In the Eddings case, it's
fairly strange to see armoured knights a la 15th century England
existing over the millenia...
It's refreshing to read an author like Katharine Kerr whose world
actually changes, not just politically, but culturally and
technologically as well, over the years.
Oh, BTW; I suppose I should refer to Eddings as "they", since his
wife seems to have been a co-author also in the early books.
Magnus Olsson
Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
>A couple of folks have mentioned GGK's "Fionavar Tapestry." After reading
>Tigana, which was stupendous, I broke my rule and bought all three volumes... I
>got about 60 pages into it, and that one element of the plot was just egging at
>me... I didn't like it, I couldn't suspend my disbelief... I took all three
>books to the used bookstore and never looked back...
There are plenty of things in _Fionavar_ that would have made me toss
the book if it hadn't been so extremely well written - your complaint
isn't among them (it just didn't bother me at all), but it's
pretentious, sentimental, balances on the line between archetypical
and cliched, mixes mythoses to a confusing degree - but it's a
wonderful read. Of course YMMV.
Let me get back to why you don't like books where a hero is brought
over from our world: you mention suspension of disbelief. I think I'm
beginning to understand now: is the problem that you can't understand
why the people in, say, Fionavar would need to go to our world to
find somebody to fix their problems, and since you can't suspend
disbelief on this point the entire book is ruined?
If that's so, would it help if there were some well-motivated reason
why they would need somebody from another world, and that this reason
was made clear more or less at the start?
Note: I'm not trying to convinve you that you're wrong and really
_should_ like this kind of story; I'm just curious what makes you
react the way you do. Knowing why a certain kind of story alienates
some readers could help fix the problem.
Alma Hromic
>A couple of folks have mentioned GGK's "Fionavar Tapestry." After reading
>Tigana, which was stupendous, I broke my rule and bought all three volumes... I
>got about 60 pages into it, and that one element of the plot was just egging at
>me... I didn't like it, I couldn't suspend my disbelief... I took all three
>books to the used bookstore and never looked back...
>
fortunately i read them all in the reverse order, which meant that i
took fionavar almost as a "practice run" - it was full of brilliant
moments linked by stuff that was almost laughable. he lost me in that
one when he pulled in the arthur/guinevere/lancelot plot and threw it
all in with the elves and the celtic pantheon and whatever else was
handy at the time. but the moments hung on in the back of my mind,
those phrases that rang with true power, and when i saw Tigana i
bought it. and couldn't believe that the same author had written that
and fionavar. and then came arbonne which i still think of as kay's
best book. then he went off at a tangent - i never did connect as
vivdly to the universe of Al Rassan and then, later, Sarantium. but
the man just WRITES so well, dammit, that you're wiling to forgive him
a lot of plot and story sins... <g>
A.("bad" fantasy? in my book, if you'll forgive the expression, it's
things like "Shards of a shattered crown" by feist. that book
*utterly* frustrated me.)
John McMullen
> >>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little
pet
> >>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster
than any
> >>other thing...
> >>
> >>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn /
tripped /
> >flung
> >>/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
> >>
>
the
> realm in question needs someone from another world, outside it's own,
shall we
> say, sphere, to save it's collective arse...
>
>
on
> someone from another world to save it. It's kind of sad that no one
who is
> native to that realm has what it takes to be the "hero..."
>
>
When I was younger and more cynical, I plotted one of those,
where the key element was amorality. I had a magical universe
where there really was an external good and evil, and it was
necessary to bring someone *else* over to do bad things for
the good of the kingdom. If the king did it, he would poison
the land, etc. So they brought over (I have trouble remembering;
this was the 1970s I plotted it) a stereotypical exCIA agent
who wanted nothing more than to live in fantasy world where
there was a clear good and evil.
Too bad he could never join either side completely, so after
he did the job, he would still be an outsider. Oh, it was
going to be a bitter and ironic book. :-)
Fortunately for the world, I was not old enough to write it.
And nowadays, I'd point out to my protagonist that to become
good, you have to do good.
Not exactly fantasy but not exactly science: Sharon Green's
_Mists_of_Ages_ was the one I hurled across the room and
said, "If this can get published, I can get published."
John
--
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mark A. Brown
<20000114234317...@ng-fs1.news.cs.com>...
*SNIP*
>The idea that the 'hero' of the story doesn't come from the realm itself,
that
>there is no "native" person/being who can achieve the results necessary to
save
>the world/save the kingdom/save the person/save the artifact/ or
whatever...
>It just doesn't work for me, and for me in particular...
*SNIP*
*nods in agreement*
The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
more trouble than helping.
These stories use the real-world (or whatever) character as the "eyes of the
audience," meaning that whenever something needs explaining, he/she is the
person to whom it is explained. This can be a very effective way, IMHO, for
a character writer to cover a lot of exposition by just having one character
befriend the outsider and explain "that's Princess Kierra, she visits the
village from time-to-time, rumours are that she and the miller's son are
involved. . ."
Matthew F Johnson
> From: Erol K Bayburt Er...@ix.netcom.com
>>>Oh, I suppose this is as good a place as any to air one of my little pet
>>>peeves... The thing that makes me put down a fantasy novel faster than
>>>
>>>Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
> flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>>
> It's an old and honorable trope dating back to at least *A Connecticut
>>Yankee* and John Carter.
>
> I certainly wouldn't want you to be discouraged from your efforts due to the
> opinion of a rather odd fellow (that would be me...) I probably won't plunk
> down $7 to buy it, though it might be quite good...
>
> Then again, there was once a time in my life when I wouldn't listen to opera,
> so who knows :-)
>>
>>Of course, those two works used *19th* century guys schlurped into the
>>fantasy world, and my WIP uses a *21st* century guy schlurped into the
>>fantasy world, so I suppose one could say "that's different!" :-)
>
> :-)
>
>>>I personally don't want the fantasy world to depend on the real world... I
> like it to live on its own...
>>
>>taking people, ideas, and stuff from the real world without giving anything
> back, or do you mean something different by "depend on"?
>
> The idea that the 'hero' of the story doesn't come from the realm itself, that
> there is no "native" person/being who can achieve the results necessary to save
> the world/save the kingdom/save the person/save the artifact/ or whatever...
> It just doesn't work for me, and for me in particular...
>
> Tigana, which was stupendous, I broke my rule and bought all three volumes... I
> got about 60 pages into it, and that one element of the plot was just egging at
> me... I didn't like it, I couldn't suspend my disbelief... I took all three
> books to the used bookstore and never looked back...
>
else feel the rest of Kay's work has not lived up to "Tigana"?)
The one time I've seen this device really work was in the early
volumes of Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. What I really
liked was that the reason only these people could solve the problem in
this world (slavery) was that only they _saw_ it as a problem - everyone
living there just accepted it as a fact of life, as they would have in the
Roman Empire here (there were some anti-slavery thinkers in the Roman
period, but not very influential or vehement). One thing fantasy rarely
takes into account is moral and intellectual "technology" - things like
slavery being wrong, logic, perspective, the scientific method, etc., that
we all take for granted but that actually had to be "invented."
--
Matthew
TLambs1138
beyond belief at the beauty of the linked moments, and tried to ignore the
creakiness of the linkages (then again, I fell in love with Kevin and so
perhaps I was not the most objective person at the time).
But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy C-130
parts...
Jean Lamb, tlamb...@cs.com
"There is chaos under heaven and the situation is excellent"--Chairman Mao, by
way of _Doonesbury_.
Alma Hromic
>I must admit, the first time I read the Fionovar Tapestry through I was stunned
>beyond belief at the beauty of the linked moments, and tried to ignore the
>creakiness of the linkages (then again, I fell in love with Kevin and so
>perhaps I was not the most objective person at the time).
>
>But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy C-130
>parts...
exactly <g> how can you take seriously a character named after a piece
of aircraft hardware?
and one of my best moments in the book was kevin's "to this i will
make reply, even if he be a god and it mean my death" vow after he
sees what rakoth had done to jennifer....
A.
Magnus Olsson
Alma Hromic <ang...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On 17 Jan 2000 21:03:47 GMT, tlamb...@cs.com (TLambs1138) wrote:
>>But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy C-130
>>parts...
>
>exactly <g> how can you take seriously a character named after a piece
>of aircraft hardware?
This is the bane of the fantasy author: all the nice-sounding names
you've made up may mean something else in a different language,
or perhaps even in a different subset of English. I had problems
with Patricia McKillip's _Riddlemaster_: "Morgon" means "morning"
in Swedish, "Raederle" sounds like it may be a diminutive of
"wheel" in some German dialect, and as for master Ohm - what,
the guy with U = R*I?
David Given
ang...@ihug.co.nz (Alma Hromic) writes:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:41:01 -0500, "Anne M. Marble"
> <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>>There's a fantasy quiz -- and I learned stuff from it! (I didn't know
>>David Farland was Dave Wolverton!) I got enough points to earn me
>>"Apprentice-Master, Gandalf Level."
> heh heh heh
> i'm a balrog <g>
Woohoo! So am I. I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not.
Some of the suggested answers were interesting, though. _The Phantom
Menace_ novelised by... Stephen Donaldson (I wish). And what *does* spice
soup taste like?
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "There is only one thing worse than war,
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | and that's business. Spacely has declared
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | business on us." --- Cogswell
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
Christian Severin
> When I was younger and more cynical, I plotted one of those,
> where the key element was amorality. I had a magical universe
> where there really was an external good and evil, and it was
> necessary to bring someone *else* over to do bad things for
> the good of the kingdom. If the king did it, he would poison
> the land, etc. So they brought over (I have trouble remembering;
> this was the 1970s I plotted it) a stereotypical exCIA agent
> who wanted nothing more than to live in fantasy world where
> there was a clear good and evil.
>
> Too bad he could never join either side completely, so after
> he did the job, he would still be an outsider. Oh, it was
> going to be a bitter and ironic book. :-)
>
> Fortunately for the world, I was not old enough to write it.
> And nowadays, I'd point out to my protagonist that to become
> good, you have to do good.
Naw. Not if the Gods of our little magical universe simply
define good and bad by decree.
I imagine that most of the secret service folks would be
deeply grateful if some sort of outside agency were to
reassure them ocaasionally that, yes, everything is OK,
they are despite everything still Good.
So a world were one side is inherently good and sanctifies
every mean in our agent's arsenal -- talk about job fulfilment!
Just imagine being able to for once _use_ all those dirty tricks
you were drilled in for years, without a bad conscience lurking
in the off-hours, because you are an Officially Certified
Good Guy, and even your victims have to admit that!
Oh well, it wouldn't work, neither for the agent nor the reader.
I guess a few decades worth of conditioning in traditional
Western Values can't be suspended quite that easily.
But there is at least a short story hiding in there...
--
Christian Severin
"He who wields a sharp tongue is armed to the teeth" (Werner Mitsch)
quite that easily.
Erol K Bayburt
"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>Helgi Briem <he...@NOSPAMdecode.is> wrote:
>> Now Gor, those are really indescribably awful.
>
>John Norman, the only man who could make bondage boring... I've heard
>the earlier books were much better, but I never got far enough to
>tell.
John Norman doesn't make *bondage* boring; he makes the punishment of
rebellious slavegirls boring:
"Tina, you've been bad and rebellious and I'm going to have to punish you."
"Yes, Master?"
"I'm going to give you a philosophy lecture."
"No Master! Please! Anything but that! I'll be good! I beg! I beg! Noooo!"
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com (mail drop)
Er...@ix.netcom.com (surfboard)
Rachel Brown
Re: Fionavar Tapestry
> >But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy
C-130
> >parts...
>
> exactly <g> how can you take seriously a character named after a piece
> of aircraft hardware?
John M. Ford had one of those unfortunate moments in _The Final Reflection_
with a beautiful woman named Rogaine.
> and one of my best moments in the book was kevin's "to this i will
> make reply, even if he be a god and it mean my death" vow after he
> sees what rakoth had done to jennifer....
Also Diarmuid's last scene. And "Rain, rain, rain, rain, rain."
Rachel
TLambs1138
>with a beautiful woman named Rogaine.
>
>
>Rachel
Although I gave into that temptation once during an earlier fantasy I wrote
(mercifully unpubbed)--see, I used to live in Arkansas, and the twins Basagran
and Basolin were actually heavily advertised herbicides...
Russell Wallace
> I felt the same way about "Fionavar". (Incidentally, does anyone
> else feel the rest of Kay's work has not lived up to "Tigana"?)
Yep.
I thought 'Fionavar' was wonderful in its own right, and showed a lot of
promise - the author was clearly a genius.
'Tigana' fully lived up to that promise. I think it's among the
greatest works of literature that has ever been written, or ever will
be.
'A Song for Arbonne' was quite good, but the spark was gone.
'The Lions of Al-Rassan' disappointed me.
Seeing the trend, I haven't read 'Sarantium'.
A lot of authors seem to do that - peak early, then fade, or at least go
off in directions I'm not interested in following. I think it's because
they just only have a finite amount to say about a certain kind of
subject.
[Earth person in fantasy world]
Personally, I love these sort of stories...
> The one time I've seen this device really work was in the early
> volumes of Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. What I really
> liked was that the reason only these people could solve the problem in
> this world (slavery) was that only they _saw_ it as a problem - everyone
> living there just accepted it as a fact of life, as they would have in the
> Roman Empire here (there were some anti-slavery thinkers in the Roman
> period, but not very influential or vehement).
But that one strikes me as rather implausible - *how* would they do
anything about slavery if none of their hosts saw it as a problem? I
can't see them getting all that far preaching that it's wrong.
The more typical sort of scenario:
"O strange person from another world, we're being overrun by the legions
of the Dark Lord, can you help us?!"
"Hmm, maybe. Let's see, to start with we'll need some charcoal, sulphur
and saltpeter..."
by contrast seems to me to be perfectly plausible. Much easier to solve
someone's problems if they acknowledge them; then all you need is to
figure out how.
> One thing fantasy rarely
> takes into account is moral and intellectual "technology" - things like
> slavery being wrong, logic, perspective, the scientific method, etc., that
> we all take for granted but that actually had to be "invented."
Oh, definitely.
One of the best of this sort of plot is Rick Cook's 'Wiz' series. Our
hero in this one isn't actually very good at magic; compared to the more
skilled of the native wizards, he's a klutz. But what he does bring is
the idea of combining standard components into structures that can be
extended indefinitely.
--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
Russell Wallace
mailto:mano...@iol.ie
Russell Wallace
>
> Looney <wilyk...@cs.comkillspam> wrote:
> > Regular, every day 20th century guy/woman gets gated / drawn / tripped /
> > flung / schlurped / whatever into said fantasy world...
>
> from the Dire and Horrible Peril, through some ineffable quality that is
> never quite adequately explained, often having to do with a prophecy.
Personally, I tend to dislike stories where the world (any world) is in
danger and The Hero is the only person who can do anything about it,
just because he's The Hero, and everyone else for some contrived reason,
or no reason, is completely ineffective. I see that as orthogonal to
the cross-universe bit; it annoys me regardless of where The Hero comes
from.
Most of the cross-universe novels I've read, though (certainly the ones
I remember) have:
1) Logical reasons why the Earth person should have unusual abilities.
2) Strong, interesting native characters who complement these abilities,
so that everyone's skills are needed.
Certainly, I'd regard stories with neither of these as being unlikely to
be very good.
Alma Hromic
>>John M. Ford had one of those unfortunate moments in _The Final Reflection_
>>with a beautiful woman named Rogaine.
>>
>(snip)
>>
>>Rachel
>
>Although I gave into that temptation once during an earlier fantasy I wrote
>(mercifully unpubbed)--see, I used to live in Arkansas, and the twins Basagran
>and Basolin were actually heavily advertised herbicides...
>
i see you let no grass grow under YOUR feet...
<g>
Alma Hromic
wrote:
>Matthew F Johnson wrote:
>> I felt the same way about "Fionavar". (Incidentally, does anyone
>> else feel the rest of Kay's work has not lived up to "Tigana"?)
>I thought 'Fionavar' was wonderful in its own right, and showed a lot of
>promise - the author was clearly a genius.
i thought it was GOOD, not wonderful, but yeah, on the money re. the
author showing promise of genius.
>'Tigana' fully lived up to that promise. I think it's among the
>greatest works of literature that has ever been written, or ever will be.
i concur. it's one of those books that leaves you breathless.
>'A Song for Arbonne' was quite good, but the spark was gone.
...but i love this too. it was more "domestic" in nature than Tigana,
lacking the sweep and grandeur of Real Magic (tm) but in its scope it
was a brilliant achievement. kay DOES so have a knack for creating
wonderful characters and developing them in amazing ways.
>'The Lions of Al-Rassan' disappointed me.
yes, again, i have to agree - i enjoyed it but it had a lot of lapses.
there was just something not quite there. not for the author of
Tigana.
>Seeing the trend, I haven't read 'Sarantium'.
i have. it's good, but it's long, and much of it is rather rambling.
but yet again those sparks of genius are there, the little flashes of
brilliance. the scene in the wood (no more, for fear of spoiling it
for those who wish to read it but haven't) is magic.
>A lot of authors seem to do that - peak early, then fade, or at least go
>off in directions I'm not interested in following. I think it's because
>they just only have a finite amount to say about a certain kind of subject.
>
orson scott card is like that. he writes a brilliant first book and
then runs the series into the ground. i loved ender's game but by the
time he hit "xenocide" he lost me.
David Langford
>I must admit, the first time I read the Fionovar Tapestry through I was stunned
>beyond belief at the beauty of the linked moments, and tried to ignore the
>creakiness of the linkages (then again, I fell in love with Kevin and so
>perhaps I was not the most objective person at the time).
>
>But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy C-130
>parts...
I always explained the chap called Tandem as being borrowed from some past
epic cycle.
Then there was the embarrassment of the posthumously published first draft
of =The Lord of the Rings= and the discovery that Frodo had originally been
called Bingo ...
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/
Julian Flood
> Aileron
There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
--
Julian Flood
Life, the Universe and Climbing Plants at www.argonet.co.uk/users/julesf.
Mind the diddley skiffle folk.
Sion Arrowsmith
>But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy C-130
>parts...
People usually look at me blankly when I say "I always feel sorry for
the prince who got named after a bit of an aeroplane." (which is
usually in the middle of rant as to whether Kevin is a suitable name
for a heroic figure).
In article <qp688soe70nciorj1...@4ax.com>,
David Langford <ans...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Then there was the embarrassment of the posthumously published first draft
>of =The Lord of the Rings= and the discovery that Frodo had originally been
>called Bingo ...
Probably not as bad as the (Teleri?) form of Celeborn which thankfully
escaped everything but some of the laundry lists: Teleporno.
--
\S -- si...@chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
___ | "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
\X/ | -- Arthur C. Clarke
her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump
Steve Patterson
>
[bunch of stuff snipped]
>
>'The Lions of Al-Rassan' disappointed me.
I loved _Al-Rassan_, but it's the only Kay I've read and so can't compare it
to his other work.
[snip]
>Matthew F Johnson wrote:
>> The one time I've seen this device really work was in the early
>> volumes of Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. What I really
>> liked was that the reason only these people could solve the problem in
>> this world (slavery) was that only they _saw_ it as a problem - everyone
>> living there just accepted it as a fact of life, as they would have in
the
>> Roman Empire here (there were some anti-slavery thinkers in the Roman
>> period, but not very influential or vehement).
>
>But that one strikes me as rather implausible - *how* would they do
>anything about slavery if none of their hosts saw it as a problem? I
>can't see them getting all that far preaching that it's wrong.
Heh-heh. First you start preaching to the slaves... read the first two
novels in the series; the first gives you the characters and their
environment, and the second shows you their far-from-smoothly-operating
campaign against slavery.
Really, I felt they're quite good. Of course, we didn't agree on
_Al-Rassan_, so YMMV.
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Note: My "from:" address has been altered to foil mailbots.
Remove the "no_spam_" to get in touch with me by email.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Steven J. Patterson no_spam_s...@wwdc.com
"Men may move mountains, but ideas move men."
-- M.N. Vorkosigan, per L.M. Bujold
See my refurbished webpage! http://www.wwdc.com/~spatterson
Matthew F Johnson
>
>> >But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy
> C-130
>> >parts...
>>
>> of aircraft hardware?
>
> with a beautiful woman named Rogaine.
Not his fault; TFR came out long before that particular hair tonic came
on the market. Ailerons, on the other hand, had existed some time before
_Fionavar_.
>
>> and one of my best moments in the book was kevin's "to this i will
>> make reply, even if he be a god and it mean my death" vow after he
>> sees what rakoth had done to jennifer....
>
> Also Diarmuid's last scene. And "Rain, rain, rain, rain, rain."
>
> Rachel
>
--
Matthew
Matthew F Johnson
> Matthew F Johnson wrote:
>> I felt the same way about "Fionavar". (Incidentally, does anyone
>> else feel the rest of Kay's work has not lived up to "Tigana"?)
>
>
> I thought 'Fionavar' was wonderful in its own right, and showed a lot of
> promise - the author was clearly a genius.
>
> greatest works of literature that has ever been written, or ever will
> be.
>
>
>
>
> off in directions I'm not interested in following. I think it's because
> they just only have a finite amount to say about a certain kind of
> subject.
>
>
> Personally, I love these sort of stories...
>
>> volumes of Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. What I really
>> liked was that the reason only these people could solve the problem in
>> this world (slavery) was that only they _saw_ it as a problem - everyone
>> living there just accepted it as a fact of life, as they would have in the
>> Roman Empire here (there were some anti-slavery thinkers in the Roman
>> period, but not very influential or vehement).
>
> But that one strikes me as rather implausible - *how* would they do
> anything about slavery if none of their hosts saw it as a problem? I
> can't see them getting all that far preaching that it's wrong.
Well, they didn't preach; they started raiding slaving caravans,
and inviting the freed slaves to join them. Some did, some didn't,
but enough that they were able to keep going. They then cleared out a
little unclaimed valley and invited people to settle there as free
farmers, rather than tenants, and taught them some modern agricultural
techniques (one of the come-from-Earthers was an Agriculture Science
major). The valley became a base for the raids, and the raids made slavery
less and less profitable.
That's about the point where it stops being plausible - the story
goes off into other directions from then on, with the main character
somehow winding up Emperor of one of the major countries in that part of
the world. Still, the first two books are pretty interesting from that
perspective.
> The more typical sort of scenario:
>
> "O strange person from another world, we're being overrun by the legions
> of the Dark Lord, can you help us?!"
>
> "Hmm, maybe. Let's see, to start with we'll need some charcoal, sulphur
> and saltpeter..."
>
> by contrast seems to me to be perfectly plausible. Much easier to solve
> someone's problems if they acknowledge them; then all you need is to
> figure out how.
>
>> One thing fantasy rarely
>> takes into account is moral and intellectual "technology" - things like
>> slavery being wrong, logic, perspective, the scientific method, etc., that
>> we all take for granted but that actually had to be "invented."
>
> Oh, definitely.
>
> One of the best of this sort of plot is Rick Cook's 'Wiz' series. Our
> hero in this one isn't actually very good at magic; compared to the more
> skilled of the native wizards, he's a klutz. But what he does bring is
> the idea of combining standard components into structures that can be
> extended indefinitely.
>
> --
> "To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
> Russell Wallace
> mailto:mano...@iol.ie
--
Matthew
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
>more trouble than helping.
Hmmm...
Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
relegated to the sidelines.
He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 12/23/99
My latest novel is DRAGON WEATHER, ISBN 0-312-86978-9
sw
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:05:39 -0500, "Mark A. Brown" <ma...@kos.net>
>wrote:
>>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
>>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
>>more trouble than helping.
>
>Hmmm...
>
>Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
>sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
>relegated to the sidelines.
>
>He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
>him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
"So, why DID you pick me, anyway?"
"You're not going to like the answer to that... you were chosen at random."
"WHAT?!"
--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make
my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." -- Voltaire
--- The Surly Bastard Chronicles @ http://www.eyrie.org/~sw/sbc ---
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:05:39 -0500, "Mark A. Brown" <ma...@kos.net>
: wrote:
:>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
:>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
:>more trouble than helping.
: Hmmm...
: Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
: sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
: relegated to the sidelines.
: He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
: him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
Still simmering in the back of my brain is a story where the protagonist
_is_ that very person -- she and a friend get sucked into another world
and she's not only pretty useless but desperately wants to get home
again. (The friend is a more typical fantasy-novel character in that
she's always dreamed about getting to be a "real swordswoman" and doing
daring deeds. She dies messily off-screen.) The real fun starts when the
protagonist _does_ get a chance to go back home but has to take an Exiled
Heir with her for safekeeping.
I may or may not write it -- ideas are _not_ my limiting reagent.
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
Samuel Paik
> Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
> sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
> relegated to the sidelines.
>
> He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
> him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
In Turtledove & Tarr's _Household Gods_, the protagonist gets
sent back to Roman times where she is a very minor character in
the broad events of the book. She's important to her own subplot
of course...
Sam
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyos!
David Silas
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote in message
<003h4.1498$Ve7....@iad-read.news.verio.net>...
>
>Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
>sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
>relegated to the sidelines.
>
>He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
>him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
>
that he disappears and nobody misses him. I don't know if Eddison forgot
about him, or just didn't care.
Alma Hromic
wrote:
>
>> Aileron
>
>There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
you mean someone from there should call in and make it perfectly plane
to us...? <g>
William Davis
>wrote:
>
>>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
>>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
>>more trouble than helping.
My favorite useless protagonist is still Arthur Dent.
Heather Anne Nicoll
> If you're trying to start another pun cascade, you may scare some into
> taking flight.
And boy are your arms tired?
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.dslonramp.net/~darkhawk/
Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind.
- "Ruby Tuesday," The Rolling Stones
Brenda
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:05:39 -0500, "Mark A. Brown" <ma...@kos.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
> >the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
> >more trouble than helping.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
> sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
> relegated to the sidelines.
>
> He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
> him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
>
Oh! I've written this novel! (He spends all his time being unhappy and trying
to find a niche, so it has the feel of a coming-of-age book even though the hero
is in his 30s.)
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
PaulMmn
Karhu) wrote (in part):
>>I think much of the Tough Guide was inspired by the collected works of
>>David Eddings and Mercedes Lackey. I can't think of any specific Lackey
>>titles, but you might try Eddings's first book, _Pawn of Prophecy_, if you
>>don't want to read a five-book series. You can pretty much predict the
>>rest of it from that one, anyway.
>
>And "Last Herald Mage trilogy" by Lackey. That one was bad. Well,
>obviously all of this is IMHO.
</pout>
But--- but--- I -=ENJOYED=- that trilogy.
Just -why- is this 'bad fantasy?'
</unpout>
--Paul E Musselman
Pau...@ix.netcom.nospam.com
PaulMmn
wrote (in part):
>I'm on a "The signposts of Bad Fantasy" panel at a local sf
>convention on Jan 21-23, and I'm looking for examples of bad
>fantasy.
Lessee-- for -bad-
How 'bout the moderately, uh, -erotic- novels by Jeffrey Lord, "The
Fantastic, Other-Dimensional Adventures of Richard BLADE!"
I inherited volumes 6, 8, 9, and 10. Premise is that a James
Bond-type hero, Richard BLADE, is linked to a computer, and is "gated
/ drawn / tripped / flung/ schlurped / whatever into said fantasy
world..."
He travels naked, of course. The covers show him at his best,
wielding a sword or spear, ready to do in 3 monsters and 1 human.
He's wearing briefs on one, a wisp of mist on another, has his back to
us on the third, and is figleafed by The Monster on the fourth. While
a naked or nearly-naked female cowers in the background of each.
The text isn't much better.
I know someone well-known wrote a piece about bad fantasy with the
words "Thud and Blunder" in the title... Is it available for
redistribution?
--Paul E Musselman
Pau...@ix.netcom.nospam.com
Patricia Novak
On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, PaulMmn wrote:
>
> I know someone well-known wrote a piece about bad fantasy with the
> words "Thud and Blunder" in the title... Is it available for
> redistribution?
Poul Anderson, I think, is the one who wrote it. It was up on the SFWA
site for a while and may still be there. I think it's www.sfwa.org, but
if that doesn't work, you can get there through sffnet.
Patricia
Berry Kercheval
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:05:43 GMT, chr...@mincom.com (Chris Barwick)
> wrote:
>
> >>>
> >>>> Aileron
> >>>
> >>>There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
> >
> >>you mean someone from there should call in and make it perfectly plane
> >>to us...? <g>
> >
> >If you're trying to start another pun cascade, you may scare some into
> >taking flight.
>
> <hanging head> i'm sorry. there has to be a 12-step programme for
> folks like me...
>
> A. ("my name is alma and i am a punaholic...")
HI ALMA!! We're all friends here, we'll prop you up.
Chris Barwick
>>> Aileron
>>
>>There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
>you mean someone from there should call in and make it perfectly plane
>to us...? <g>
If you're trying to start another pun cascade, you may scare some into
taking flight.
Chris Barwick
Chris Barwick
>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:05:39 -0500, "Mark A. Brown" <ma...@kos.net>
>>wrote:
>>>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
>>>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up causing
>>>more trouble than helping.
>>
>>Hmmm...
>>
>>Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
>>sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
>>relegated to the sidelines.
>>
>>He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
>>him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
>"So, why DID you pick me, anyway?"
>"You're not going to like the answer to that... you were chosen at random."
>"WHAT?!"
"Well, we needed someone to flounder round entertainingly to distract
the Evil Overlord while we snuck in the back way. You did it quite
well."
Chris Barwick
Alma Hromic
wrote:
>>>
<hanging head> i'm sorry. there has to be a 12-step programme for
folks like me...
A. ("my name is alma and i am a punaholic...")
Erol K Bayburt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:05:39 -0500, "Mark A. Brown" <ma...@kos.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The "alternate fantasy-world" stories that I like best are the ones where
>>the "Outlander" ends up sucked into the middle of things and ends up
causing
>>more trouble than helping.
>
>Hmmm...
>
>Now I want to write a fantasy novel where someone from our world is
>sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
>relegated to the sidelines.
>
>He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
>him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
This would give me indigestion. I'm enough of a cynical bastard in real
life. If I want to know how badly the world sucks and how little I can
do to change that, I can read the news. When I read fantasy, I want to put
that aside for a time. I want escape. I want to see a eucatastrophe or three
unfold. (I'm a sucker for a good eucatastrophe.) I want to see the promise
of Good Things fulfilled, and not broken or turned twisted and bitter.
What you propose is to tell me that there is no escape, that what looks like
a wonderous piece of good fortune is really a matter of jumping from the
frying pan into the fire. I can see how other people might enjoy the world
wise cynicism involved in such a move, but it's just not to my taste.
I think I agree with Looney in a weird way: IMO, a story does take a SOD hit
if someone from Our World is brought into it. I just consider the hit to be
worth it - but only if the Person From Our World manages to do something
important & meaningful in the story to make up for the SOD hit.
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com (mail drop)
Er...@ix.netcom.com (surfboard)
Graydon
> >sucked into theirs, and turns out to be totally useless, so he's
> >relegated to the sidelines.
> >
> >He'd be a very minor character, and the main plot would go on around
> >him while he unsuccessfully tries to figure out how he can help.
> >
> that he disappears and nobody misses him. I don't know if Eddison forgot
> about him, or just didn't care.
Leshingham is one of the few instances of an embodied omniscient
narrator I can think of -- Leshingham is an extremely heretical
version of the Abrahamic God.
--
"I call thee by the most modest terms, for I am one of the gentle ones
that will use the devil himself with courtesy." -- Feste, :Twelfth Night:
Jouni Karhu
>Matthew F Johnson wrote:
>> I felt the same way about "Fionavar". (Incidentally, does anyone
>> else feel the rest of Kay's work has not lived up to "Tigana"?)
>
>Yep.
In my opinion, he _has_ lived up to Tigana. And gotten better.
>I thought 'Fionavar' was wonderful in its own right, and showed a lot of
>promise - the author was clearly a genius.
One of the few books that have brought tears into my eyes.
>'Tigana' fully lived up to that promise. I think it's among the
>greatest works of literature that has ever been written, or ever will
>be.
It is good, but the best he has written in my opinion.
>'A Song for Arbonne' was quite good, but the spark was gone.
I think this is probably the best of Kay's, since can't yet comment on
"The Sarantine Mosaic", which is incomplete yet.
>'The Lions of Al-Rassan' disappointed me.
Would have probably taken the top spot, if he hadn't played around
with the reader as much as he did. I didn't like the feeling of being
cheated. :)
>Seeing the trend, I haven't read 'Sarantium'.
Well, nobody can twist your arm. Sarantium _does_, though, have
slightly more magic in it than Arbonne and Al-Rassan did.
>The more typical sort of scenario:
>
>"O strange person from another world, we're being overrun by the legions
>of the Dark Lord, can you help us?!"
>
>"Hmm, maybe. Let's see, to start with we'll need some charcoal, sulphur
>and saltpeter..."
A pet peeve of mine: then what? Could you _really_ make gunpowder?
What would you do with gunpowder once you had it?
--
'I have something to say! | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o JJ Karhu
It is better to burn out, | -=========================OxxxxxxxxxxxO
than to fade away!' | kur...@modeemi.cs.tut.fi /o
Jouni Karhu
>In article <3883E6...@iol.ie>, mano...@iol.ie says...
>>anything about slavery if none of their hosts saw it as a problem? I
>>can't see them getting all that far preaching that it's wrong.
>
>novels in the series; the first gives you the characters and their
>environment, and the second shows you their far-from-smoothly-operating
>campaign against slavery.
This brings to mind Brust's Vlad Taltos books, and the Teckla/human
uprising. The uprising apparently began when the leader found some
books that probably originated from our Earth. The world the books are
set in is not quite a stock fantasy world . . . a "god" commented on
how the books had ideas for a different world, and was probably even
right. So, the rebellion was based on information that didn't fit the
world in question.
Peter Knutsen
PaulMmn wrote:
> I know someone well-known wrote a piece about bad fantasy with the
> words "Thud and Blunder" in the title... Is it available for
> redistribution?
Perhaps Poul Anderson? I found such a text on the WWW, some years
ago.
[checks magic link collection]
Yes, here it is: http://www.sfwa.org/writing/thud.htm
> --Paul E Musselman
--
Peter Knutsen
Graydon
> >"Hmm, maybe. Let's see, to start with we'll need some charcoal, sulphur
> >and saltpeter..."
>
> A pet peeve of mine: then what? Could you _really_ make gunpowder?
Well, I have before...
Bulk quantities would be tricky.
> What would you do with gunpowder once you had it?
Iron mines, quarries, and digging canals. I know how canal locks
work, too; that and knowing how to make coke are enough for an
industrial revolution.
Looney
Date: Sun, 16 January 2000 05:06 PM EST
>In article <ant14084...@julie.dollin.which.net>,
>Hedgehog <e...@electric-hedgehog.net> wrote:
>>Except that _Nine Princes_ doesn't follow that pattern: we start in what we
>>laughable call the "real world", true, but the protagonist is *not* a
>"regular,
>>everyday 20th century guy". Which becomes apparent pretty quickly.
>
>Yes, but I'm afraid Looney might have chucked the book before that
>point.
Ah, too true... Chances are I left my $$ in my pocket in the first place :-)
Anthony "Looney" Toohey
Yehoota on chess.net/FICS/Yahoo
_______________________________
If I see one more quote of that stupid
bathing gnat drowning elephant thing...
Looney
>
>Let me get back to why you don't like books where a hero is brought
>over from our world: you mention suspension of disbelief. I think I'm
>beginning to understand now: is the problem that you can't understand
>why the people in, say, Fionavar would need to go to our world to
>find somebody to fix their problems, and since you can't suspend
>disbelief on this point the entire book is ruined?
In a sense. To my (narrow) vision, it has always felt like nothing more than a
plot device to give the audience a toehold by making the protag someone of the
real world, someone to identify with because they're one of us. They come into
the "other" world with their uniquely modern/earth/American?/whatever point of
view which enables them to see through a whole maze of problems in a way the
"other" society never could. It just doesn't feel whole. I would rather see a
story in which someone within the society finds the answers in spite of
upbringing or norms or traditions...
>
>If that's so, would it help if there were some well-motivated reason
>why they would need somebody from another world, and that this reason
>was made clear more or less at the start?
Not necessarily, though I would never say never :-) Thomas Convenant, that
Dave Duncan series from the 80's (The Seventh Swordsman or something like
that?) well, they just didn't do it for me at all. I was perusing the
bookshelf recently and saw the title and cover of _Beyond the Pale_ Almost
picked it up... then saw "Colorado Springs" on the back cover... couldn't do
it, couldn't pick it up. I want to be wrapped up in a fully self-contained
world where no one leaves except by death and no one comes in except by birth.
They're stuck there. It's their world. It has problems. They gotta deal with
it or perish. There's no outside help coming, no Lone Ranger on the way from
parts unknown. Do or die...
OTOH, the _one_ novel using that device I thoroughly and completely loved was
_The Neverending Story_ by Michael Ende... so I guess I'm not *completely*
hopeless :-)
>
>Note: I'm not trying to convinve you that you're wrong and really
>_should_ like this kind of story;
:-) I certainly don't take it that way, so no worries...
>I'm just curious what makes you
>react the way you do. Knowing why a certain kind of story alienates
>some readers could help fix the problem.
Well, I'm not sure it needs fixing. I think it's very much *my* problem, and
for me makes for bad fantasy. OTOH, I've seen people mention other fantasy
stories that I really enjoyed as examples of "bad" fantasy, Eddings, for
instance. Actually, let me clarify... Eddings' Belgariad. While it did have
the "glaring" flaws in it that drove me nuts, it was a well thought out,
cohesive read that all fit together like a nice puzzle, with a pretty good
bang-up climax. (Actually, the part I hated the most was the Polgara/Durnik
denoument... bleh...) The rest of his stuff has gone downhill. Read the
Elenium... Started well, ended crappily...
Enjoyed Eye of the World last year, the Great Hunt is on my reading list for
this year... not hooked yet...
And (dare I admit it?)...
...
...
I really enjoyed the first three Shannara books :-P
I guess some of the things that some complain about (20th c. protags/things
being derivative) aren't bothersome to others. I really don't mind a story
being derivative of Tolkein, if it's done well, if it's a good yarn. Brooks
certainly falls into this category. He's a good storyteller, more than a
literary craftsman (is saying "Brooks" and "literary craftsman" in one sentence
allowable?) Same with Eddings' Belgariad. Tell me a good story, one that
hearkens me back to my teenage days, when I finally sat down and finished _The
Lord of the Rings_ and started crying because it was over, and I didn't want it
to end...
Looney
>Alma Hromic <ang...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
>Re: Fionavar Tapestry
>> >But I nearly lost it even then with Aileron. You see, I used to buy
>C-130
>> >parts...
>> exactly <g> how can you take seriously a character named after a piece
>> of aircraft hardware?
>John M. Ford had one of those unfortunate moments in _The Final Reflection_
>with a beautiful woman named Rogaine.
(I think an attribution is missing somewhere up there... sorry)
Anyway... my favorite is "Allanon" from the Shannara books. For those not
exposed to "The Program," Alcoholics Anonymous is for recovering alcoholics...
and _Al Anon_ is for relatives, most often spouses, of alcoholics...
I kept wondering if he was working the 12 steps...
Jouni Karhu
>>>> Aileron
>>>
>>>There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
>
>>you mean someone from there should call in and make it perfectly plane
>>to us...? <g>
>
>If you're trying to start another pun cascade, you may scare some into
>taking flight.
Yup, and we'll probably end up doing it until next fall.
Jouni Karhu
>Russell Wallace <mano...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>'Tigana' fully lived up to that promise. I think it's among the
>>greatest works of literature that has ever been written, or ever will
>>be.
>It is good, but the best he has written in my opinion.
Hmm. Maybe I should stop writing these posts just before dawn.
"It is good, but _not_ the best he has written, in my opinion."
Jouni Karhu
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:27:30 GMT, kur...@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni
>Karhu) wrote (in part):
>>obviously all of this is IMHO.
></pout>
>
>But--- but--- I -=ENJOYED=- that trilogy.
>
>Just -why- is this 'bad fantasy?'
>
></unpout>
Hmm. Because I didn't like it? I don't think I can give any better
answer than that. Basically the prevalent feeling of "Nobody can be so
badly off, that another disaster couldn't strike."
TLambs1138
>chr...@mincom.com (Chris Barwick) wrote:
>>>>> Aileron
>>>>
>>>>There's a town called this, Australia, north of Alice. One wonders why.
>>
>>>you mean someone from there should call in and make it perfectly plane
>>>to us...? <g>
>>
>>If you're trying to start another pun cascade, you may scare some into
>>taking flight.
>
>Yup, and we'll probably end up doing it until next fall.
>
Jean Lamb, tlamb...@cs.com
"There is chaos under heaven and the situation is excellent"--Chairman Mao, by
way of _Doonesbury_.
Jouni Karhu
>Jouni Karhu <kur...@modeemi.cs.tut.fi> scripsit:
>> >"Hmm, maybe. Let's see, to start with we'll need some charcoal, sulphur
>> >and saltpeter..."
>>
>> A pet peeve of mine: then what? Could you _really_ make gunpowder?
>
>Well, I have before...
With you, I have no doubt at all :)
>> What would you do with gunpowder once you had it?
>
>Iron mines, quarries, and digging canals. I know how canal locks
>work, too; that and knowing how to make coke are enough for an
>industrial revolution.
The Evil Overlord might not wait that long, but those do seem like
good uses for gunpowder.
An additional problem: what if the fantasy world speaks a different
language that you have to learn? Would you know enough to describe the
materials needed for some modern-day invention without knowing the
word for it? (This is a generic you; I have no trouble believing that
you, Graydon, would manage that, too :)