Rather hopeless (and long) plea for plot noodling
Anna Mazzoldi
Before Xmas I posted here saying that my WIP was stuck, and that I was
going to use some of the holiday time to work out how to solve this.
I didn't do the full outline as I had planned, but I re-read the second
half and worked out that the stuckness is not only psychological (though
that is relevant too--completophobia, or something), but actually has to do
with at least 2 subplots being hopelessly lame as they stand. So I'm still
stuck, but at least I have an excuse... ;-)
What's missing is about 2 chapters (I do long chapters) + epilogue. In this
space, the main plot thread and most sub-threads should be neatly tied up,
and some neat and tidy leads left for volume 2 (the other sub-threads are
already tied up earlier).
One of the two lame threads I can either drop completely or patch up in a
slightly unsatisfactory way. I'll probably write a resolution and then
decide in the second draft whether to keep it.[1]
The other one is more of a problem. I'd like to toss this to rasfc and see
if anyone has suggestions. Unfortunately, I have the strong feeling that it
may not be possible to make useful suggestions without having read all the
story to this point (and it's not in a state to inflict on beta-readers
yet). I'll try it anyway: suggestions can always spark ideas, even if they
are somewhat off-base -- and then there is the magic of rasfc.
The thread is about this character called Harian. He starts out as a friend
of the protag's, but by the end of the book he hates her with a total and
insane passion. He is a warrior, fairly good but not half as good as the
protag, and not exactly fearless and upright. He has a complicated
love/hate/inferiority/jealousy relationship with his ex-teacher (the
Raven), who died a year ago and is currently possessing the protag (the
possession only becomes evident at particular times, but he's "there" all
the time, in some way, and this can be felt by sensitive people). He was
one of the first people to notice this possession, and becomes insanely
jealous of Siriee (the protag), _and_ convinced that she's usurping his
rightful place as the Raven's successor.
In Chapter 16 (day 8, morning) a younger brother of Harian's is killed in a
duel because Siriee didn't intervene. This doesn't make Harian like her any
better, as can be imagined, and also creates a formal rupture between the
two Houses, which Siriee tries to solve by offering to make personal
reparations; Harian's House accepts, but takes time out to formulate a
request.
We are now in Ch 18 (day 9, evening). The whole story ends in Ch 20 (day
10, evening). (The epilogue takes a few more days, but it's only for
cleanup + setting up Book 2.)
What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
_like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified). Originally
I had a plan, but now it looks impossibly lame for various reasons (mainly
to do with the way some other subplots have worked out). I'll give the
original plan and another one I've come up with in the meantime, just to
set the scene a bit, but what I need is probably some wild brainstorming!
The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
Anna
[1] The protag (a Rys) was supposed to foil an assassination attempt on the
Poor Bastard (a Noisse), made by the Noisse, by perpetrating some
high-speed slaughter. Except I don't want another high-speed slaughter,
there are too many of them in the last few chapters already. What will
happen is that the protag will foil an assassination attempt on the Poor
Bastard made by the _Rys_ (though with Noisse encouragement) by applying
her considerable if as yet unofficial authority and the _threat_ of some
high-speed slaughter. This is more elegant, except that it feels a bit
shoehorned--if I could move it to an earlier chapter it would be best.
[2] Of course, suggestions for a completely different course of action may
also be useful--or even more! Basically, I'm completely stuck.
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
Thomas Lindgren
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> writes:
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
OK, I'll try a noodling attempt then:
First, we know that Harian hates Siriee, but what does Siriee feel
about Harian? Hatred, pity, fear, sternness, aloof incomprehension?
Second, how complex would you want this to be? When reading it, I
thought that Harian should do something vengeful that readers could
kind of understand but which also is going far too far. Killing a
kinsman of Siriee in revenge, perhaps, in tit-for-tat? Or a kinsman
of The Raven? If Harian's favorite brother got killed, maybe it's
sort of understandable.
Third, what does Harian think? He does from the description seem to be
ruled by bad temper, vengefulness and passion, so anything too
intricate is probably out of the picture.
Fourth, as written Harian also seems a bit pathetic. He's second best,
he's a sore loser, he tries to do something nasty and fails, Siriee
ignores him and goes to mommy and daddy (the house) to determine how
to punish him. Not too impressive. If this is the case, maybe you
should make him a bit more formidable? Otherwise, his future comeback
could be less interesting.
If my guessing above is somewhere near your intentions, then I suggest
Harian would take direct action. Challenge Siriee to a duel and try to
kill her? (And does he hope the Raven will possess him afterwards?)
Perhaps after drugging her coffee to even things out, if she's much
better than him, or otherwise reducing her capacity. During the duel,
his calumny is found out, so he will have to go into exile, but he
departs with something useful (whatever that might be) to spice up his
return. Or he could try to have someone else killed in vengeance
outside the rules, get caught out (whether he succeeds or not),
then exiled.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
David Friedman
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
> not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
> rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
> chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
possessing Siriee. Perhaps you could hint earlier that part of the
reason he is free to do so is something that could be changed--say
something accidentally (or intentionally) left out of the usual burial
ceremony. So Harian tries to do that something--which he, not being
responsible for Raven, has no right to do, and is obviously doing for
hostile purpose.
2. (Obvious) He tries to assassinate Siriee in some dishonorable
way--poison, say.
Dorothy J Heydt
[schnipp]
I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
suggestion in another direction.
Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
personality traits that no one can think about him with
neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
you can possibly rename the character, I would.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Anna Mazzoldi
> OK, I'll try a noodling attempt then:
Thanks!
> First, we know that Harian hates Siriee, but what does Siriee feel
> about Harian? Hatred, pity, fear, sternness, aloof incomprehension?
She despises him. Has done for a while. Until recently, this mainly meant
that she just ignored him. Lately it has become impossible, so she treats
him with chilly aloofness instead.
> Second, how complex would you want this to be?
Complex is good. Especially since these two are going to meet again in Book
2 (in completely different circumstances). But things should get to some
kind of a resting point at the end of Book 1.
> When reading it, I
> thought that Harian should do something vengeful that readers could
> kind of understand but which also is going far too far. Killing a
> kinsman of Siriee in revenge, perhaps, in tit-for-tat? Or a kinsman
> of The Raven? If Harian's favorite brother got killed, maybe it's
> sort of understandable.
Ik. I hadn't /thought/ of this at all. Ik. Argh. Glurk.
I know, I'm too soft-hearted to be a proper writer ;-). No, seriously: I'll
have to consider this. It may be just the thing. It would have to be one of
Siriee's relatives, otherwise she wouldn't be the one with a right on
Harian's life. And she would find it terribly hard to let Harian live after
he's done something like that... but that's not a bad thing. I'll have to
go away and think if there's anybody I can kill off at this point...
> Third, what does Harian think? He does from the description seem to be
> ruled by bad temper, vengefulness and passion, so anything too
> intricate is probably out of the picture.
He's gone paranoid, he's not quite acting on immediate impulse. Some
planning and some intricacy are possible: the main constraint is time,
since whatever happens it has to happen between now and tomorrow evening.
> Fourth, as written Harian also seems a bit pathetic. He's second best,
> he's a sore loser, he tries to do something nasty and fails, Siriee
> ignores him and goes to mommy and daddy (the house) to determine how
> to punish him. Not too impressive. If this is the case, maybe you
> should make him a bit more formidable? Otherwise, his future comeback
> could be less interesting.
You're right, he is a bit pathetic: he's supposed to be, too. In Book 2, he
acquires a position that makes him a more dangerous enemy (though I still
wouldn't quite call him "formidable", that's just not him). In Book 1, he's
supposed to be a stumbling block, rather than a major antagonist (plus he
has a few other functions earlier on in the story). His strenght lies in
the fact that he knows more about Siriee than most of her enemies do (for
example, he's one of the few who know about the possession), and that he
won't be restrained by honour -- so he could find some powerful allies to
help him in his revenge.
> If my guessing above is somewhere near your intentions, then I suggest
> Harian would take direct action. Challenge Siriee to a duel and try to
> kill her?
No way. He'd be dead meat, and he knows. (Because of the events in the past
few chapters, right now "picking a fight with Siriee" is probably listed as
#1 foolproof suicide method in the lifestyle magazines of the city of
Lyanothel...)
> (And does he hope the Raven will possess him afterwards?)
It would cross his mind -- but he wouldn't count on it. Though /that/ could
be something he might try to accomplish by magic.
> Perhaps after drugging her coffee to even things out, if she's much
> better than him, or otherwise reducing her capacity.
Hmmm. This is better. And again, could be achieved by magic (literally
drugging her coffee or food would be really difficult at the moment). The
main problem with this is that Siriee has already fought a number of duels
in the last few chapters. I'm sure she wouldn't mind another one (she's
just that kind of girl, you know...): but it might become a bit repetitive
for readers, even though most of the duels she's already fought are only
summarized and not shown.
Alternatively, he could just poison her outright. I know someone who could
get him the poison. Then I'd have to work out how to save Siriee's skin, of
course... ;-)
> During the duel,
> his calumny is found out, so he will have to go into exile, but he
> departs with something useful (whatever that might be) to spice up his
> return.
That could work. Still dubious about having yet another duel, though.
Ah--and it would have to be someone else who finds out, because Siriee
would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
Many thanks,
Anna (goes away and looks speculatively at the list of Siriee's
relatives...)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Schrodinger: "Chicken? Chicken!? Where's my cat?"
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
> [attack on Raven's ghost in Siree by H-name, obviously dishonorable]
>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>
> Have him poison her sword(s) with something that is obvious, has obvious
> side effects and is furthermore too old/weak to work.
>
> I mean, he knows he's dead already, right? So if he dies in a way that
> implies that the Raven's successor is an _incompetent_ cheat, that's
> about the most discrediting thing he can hope to do.
Cool, and the right style for the character, but too late for that. After
the events of the past few chapters, nobody would believe this (even
assuming that they would have believed it earlier).
> (Since he's
> presumptively not up to stuffing the Raven in a spirit prison.)
Hm, this is a fascinating thought. He definitely isn't, and the only person
I know who might have a chance is on Siriee's side (and the Raven's
ex-lover). However, there might be someone I don't know about (at this
point in the book? hmmm...) or, more likely, he might _think_ that someone
else would be up to it. He does have access to one or two relatively
powerful shamans... Worth considering, certainly.
Hmmm. Except that it would require the possession to become public
knowledge (or at least to be made known both to Siriee's House and to
Harian's House). I don't think I want that to happen. Still. I'll think
about this.
Thanks,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi
This is either very Zen, or I'm channelling Goldilocks.
-- Helen on rasfc
Anna Mazzoldi
> 1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
By magic, yes -- theoretically at least. I haven't thought this out, but I
could.
> I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
> possessing Siriee. Perhaps you could hint earlier that part of the
> reason he is free to do so is something that could be changed--say
> something accidentally (or intentionally) left out of the usual burial
> ceremony.
By a strange coincidence, I've already hinted this ;-) (In fact it's more
complicated than that: but something did go quite pear-shaped at the
Raven's funeral). Yes, the Raven could be put to rest -- or at least, it
would be a conceivable thing to try.
> So Harian tries to do that something--which he, not being
> responsible for Raven, has no right to do, and is obviously doing for
> hostile purpose.
Yes, if he tried something of this kind it would be taken as a hostile and
traitorous move by the whole city of Lyanothel, not so much because Harian
doesn't have a right, but because of who/what the Raven is.
This could work. Except that the fact of the possession can't be made
public yet. A few people know: I'd have to arrange things so that those
people can vouch that Harian is a traitor -- and _his House_ would have to
believe them, which is the really tricky part. Or I'd have to decide that
Harian's House can be told the truth (Harian himself hasn't told anybody
because he hopes to get rid of Siriee, or the Raven, or both, before anyone
else notices).
> 2. (Obvious) He tries to assassinate Siriee in some dishonorable
> way--poison, say.
Yes, this is also a possibility -- though, as you say, it's a bit obvious.
There are other problems with the idea of poison, though. It's hard to
poison her at a time when she's only eating in her own house, she's not
visiting Harian's house because there's a feud between the two, and she's
constantly surrounded by a bunch of well-armed and keen-eyed groupies...
...unless she goes to Harian's house _precisely_ in connection with the
feud, to offer a solution maybe? This could actually be a possibility. If
he tried to poison her there, his House would exile him immediately and
without question. Hmmm...
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!'
Then there was still nothing. But you could see it.
Anna Mazzoldi
He's called Harian, really. Mostly referred to in the book as Harian
Selethima, to be precise -- and his full name is Harian Selethima ar
Sitraim. But I do understand the objection now that you've pointed it out,
even though I had never made the connection before! Do you think it's still
a problem even though he isn't _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully
close? (I could change his name to something like Heiran or Darian without
too much pain, but it would take me a while to get used to it, so I'd
rather not do it without need.)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Werner Heisenberg: "We are not sure which side of the
road the chicken was on, but it was moving very fast."
David Friedman
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> because Siriee
> would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
> realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
> the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
is the female military order they belong to.
I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
Mary Gentle
wrote:
He's 'Harian', not 'Harlan', unless I've been reading the AU rasfc again .
. .
And I have to say that, well-known as Harlan Ellison may be, I don't think
I'd assume every character in fiction would have to have some kind of
reference to him.
There again, I may not be the target audience of your remarks, being
perfectly happy to think of Harlan Ellison with as close to neutrality as
is consistent with liking some of his short stories.
Mary
Eric Jarvis
>
> <megasnips>
>
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>
>
I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
normal fantasy rails. :)
Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
child.
The intention being to utterly discredit The Raven who is not in any
position to deal with the accusation without making the possession public.
It potentially stirs up antipathy between Sirlee and The Raven. It also
makes Harlan the centre of attention.
Whether it works depends on the cultural setting and how adult/difficult
you want the plot to be.
You might, perhaps, manage something similar with a less serious
accusation.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of
them are no longer in stock"
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:13:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
>> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>> [schnipp]
>>
>> I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
>> suggestion in another direction.
>>
>> Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
>> will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
>> writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
>> personality traits that no one can think about him with
>> neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
>> talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
>> you can possibly rename the character, I would.
>
>He's called Harian, really. Mostly referred to in the book as Harian
>Selethima, to be precise -- and his full name is Harian Selethima ar
>Sitraim.
Oh. Duh.
But I do understand the objection now that you've pointed it out,
>even though I had never made the connection before!
Honest to Pete, I looked at the name and saw "Harlan".
Do you think it's still
>a problem even though he isn't _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully
>close? (I could change his name to something like Heiran or Darian without
>too much pain, but it would take me a while to get used to it, so I'd
>rather not do it without need.)
Hm.
Now I don't trust my own judgment. What do the rest think?
Brian M. Scott
J Heydt) wrote in <news:Hr117...@kithrup.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> [schnipp]
> I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
> suggestion in another direction.
> Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"?
She didn't: it's <Harian>, with an <i>.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
J Heydt) wrote in <news:Hr155...@kithrup.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <1pgiawsoxpwjh$.1haf8b0ujr50c$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
[...]
>> Do you think it's still a problem even though he isn't
>> _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully close? (I could
>> change his name to something like Heiran or Darian
>> without too much pain, but it would take me a while to
>> get used to it, so I'd rather not do it without need.)
> Hm.
> Now I don't trust my own judgment. What do the rest
> think?
No problem. I don't think that the names are particularly
similar except to the eye (and I wouldn't object to <Harlan>
in the first place).
Brian
Catja Pafort
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> Before Xmas I posted here saying that my WIP was stuck, and that I was
> going to use some of the holiday time to work out how to solve this.
Yes, stuckness. I hope that it will stop when Mercury stops being
retrogade tomorrow. Which explanation, out of the field as it might be,
sounds better than being stuck and having to do something about it.
Waiting sounds... easier.
> The thread is about this character called Harian. He starts out as a friend
> of the protag's, but by the end of the book he hates her with a total and
> insane passion. He is a warrior, fairly good but not half as good as the
> protag, and not exactly fearless and upright. He has a complicated
> love/hate/inferiority/jealousy relationship with his ex-teacher (the
> Raven), who died a year ago and is currently possessing the protag (the
> possession only becomes evident at particular times, but he's "there" all
> the time, in some way, and this can be felt by sensitive people). He was
> one of the first people to notice this possession, and becomes insanely
> jealous of Siriee (the protag), _and_ convinced that she's usurping his
> rightful place as the Raven's successor.
Sounds good. Not 'good' as in 'nice', but as in 'interesting'.
<snip>
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame.
Sounds logical.
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such.
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
I'm certain that as an ex-friend/fellow student, or under the mantle of
'wanting to offer reparations' he could wriggle his way in, should he
want to.
And what the spell is supposed to achieve is pretty obvious to me: to
separate The Raven from Siriee. Which carries the very real danger of
leaving Siriee dead or incapacitated.
Catja
Patricia C. Wrede
"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-2500E0.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian
gets
> > into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> > there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> > killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this
is
> > not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across
as
> > rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the
previous
> > chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
>
> 1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
>
> I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
> possessing Siriee.
Or is there some way he could try to shift Raven out of Siriee and into
himself? If he sees Siriee as having unfairly (somehow) obtained both the
ghost of his master and his own highly theoretical position as
heir-to-his-master, it seems that what he'd really *want*, on some level,
would be to set things right -- i.e., to take her place. Of course, if he's
conflicted about his former master, this could cause problems of various
sorts...
Um. Is he far enough into his own world that he would think that he could
beat Siriee if Siriee didn't have Raven on board? Or that he could if *he*
had Raven instead? Or that he could control Raven if he *did* get Raven on
board himself instead of in Siriee?
Or...what would be the effect of him accusing Siriee of cheating on her last
couple of wins, whatever they were, because she "used" Raven's skills?
Would anybody else believe him if he claimed she was possessed?
Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other house
entirely? How do the master-student relationships work across Houses--if
Raven was of a different House from Harian, would Harian be expected to side
with Raven or with his House if there were a dispute between the two? Would
it be considered exceptionally odd of Siriee to be possessed by the spirit
of someone not of her own House, or would that be the usual way of things?
Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could be
useful?
Patricia C. Wrede
sharkey
through your post ... if it sounds daft, just ignore it :-)
Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
That's got to be pretty high on the scale of shamefulness then:
although what order that scale is in depends a lot on their culture.
To us, it'd be attempted murder, or rape, but in your world maybe
some other form of assault or defilement would be as significant.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
> fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified).
One question: is this just Siriee he doesn't stand a chance against,
or Siriee/Raven? Eg: what is the nature of her posession?
Does this added power bring with it added vulnerabilities?
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene.
... or perhaps she has to find evidence of this work, despite Harian's
alibi ... after all, she needs to prove to _his_ house that he has
acted dishonorably.
> [...] also, I'm not entirely sure what the black magic would have
> accomplished exacly, and can't come up with anything appropriate
> at this point
The obvious thing to me would be an effect on the Siriee/Raven
connection, rather than directly attacking either of them.
Perhaps a reversal or a shift in their roles or a loss of
communication between them would be enough to put two souls
in conflict over one body. Perhaps this would be enough to
disorient Siriee/Raven enough to be vulnerable.
Where would Raven be if he was not possessing Siriee?
An assault directly on the soul would seem sufficient to deserve
severe punishment ...
Hope these ramblings have been useful,
sharks
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <1b7w6re74vnws.1hjzsn9nbv016$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> because Siriee
>> would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
>> realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
>> the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
>
> On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
> leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
I can't say. For me, it's just that female protagonists come kind of
natural -- and some of them want to be warriors. This one couldn't be
anything else... ;-)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Freedom defined is freedom denied. (Illuminatus)
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <myamobwllhcn.9...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
>> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:01:17 -0500, Graydon wrote:
>>> In <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>, Anna Mazzoldi
>>> <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan: [attack on Raven's ghost in Siree by
>>> H-name, obviously dishonorable]
>>>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>>
>>> Have him poison her sword(s) with something that is obvious, has obvious
>>> side effects and is furthermore too old/weak to work.
>>>
>>> I mean, he knows he's dead already, right? So if he dies in a way that
>>> implies that the Raven's successor is an _incompetent_ cheat, that's
>>> about the most discrediting thing he can hope to do.
>>
>> Cool, and the right style for the character, but too late for that. After
>> the events of the past few chapters, nobody would believe this (even
>> assuming that they would have believed it earlier).
>
> Well, sure, that's the whole point -- no one believes it. Siree catches
> him at it, has a member of his house inspect the sword *first*, and
> absolutely no one will believe it of her, even her sworn enemies.
Well, yes, I see your point. But I'm afraid that Harian, even though he's a
wee bit unbalanced at the moment, hasn't completely lost his sense of
reality: I can't see him doing something as daft as this -- he would
realize that nobody would believe it of her, and certainly not now.
[suggestion of stuffing the Raven in a spirit prison.]
> He might be looking into it and find out that it takes to long, hence
> the despair adequate to produce the plot with the swords?
This might have interesting developments. He doesn't actually _know_ that
time is so short -- the event that ends the story is unforeseen by all (ok,
all except the junkie shaman, but he doesn't tell). However, he would be
generally in a hurry to get rid of her before the possession becomes public
knowledge -- though I'm not sure how long he thinks he's got. In fact, this
can play nicely with some other things...
I still don't think he'd be desperate enough to try _that_ trick with the
sword, but you never know, I suppose it depends on how desperate _I_ get...
;-)
Just in case: how could he manage to poison her sword, given that she's
always wearing it -- except when she sleeps (in her room, in the middle of
her house, and the sword will be beside her on the floor) and when she's
sitting down (and the sword is laid in front of her or to her right side,
in its scabbard)? This is a rather special sword, and she never lets anyone
else handle it. (She's somewhat less jealous of her left-hand knife, but on
the other hand she doesn't lay it down when she's sitting, so in the end
it's probably even harder to get at.)
Anna Mazzoldi
> Or is there some way he could try to shift Raven out of Siriee and into
> himself?
Well, _I_ know that there isn't; he _should_ know, if he thought about it
straight; on the other hand, he might well delude himself into believing
that he can...
However, this by itself would not be considered a heinous crime (even if
the possession was public knowledge, and this is a bit of a sticking point
because I _don't_ want it to be). The _method_ used, on the other hand,
could be of such a kind as to qualify. Hmmm....
> If he sees Siriee as having unfairly (somehow) obtained both the
> ghost of his master and his own highly theoretical position as
> heir-to-his-master, it seems that what he'd really *want*, on some level,
> would be to set things right -- i.e., to take her place. Of course, if he's
> conflicted about his former master, this could cause problems of various
> sorts...
Yes. You're quite right that this is what he wants -- and also that it
would cause all kinds of problems. My idea was that he'd given up on this,
though: he would settle for getting rid of Siriee, or the Raven, or both.
It might be worth going back and re-thinking this, to see if it could be
made to fit the needs of this situation. Thanks!
> Um. Is he far enough into his own world that he would think that he could
> beat Siriee if Siriee didn't have Raven on board? Or that he could if *he*
> had Raven instead? Or that he could control Raven if he *did* get Raven on
> board himself instead of in Siriee?
He might think that, indeed. (Yes. And he has _no_ idea of just how bad it
would be for him if _he_ got possessed by the Raven... Well, it won't
happen, so I can stop cringing...)
> Or...what would be the effect of him accusing Siriee of cheating on her last
> couple of wins, whatever they were, because she "used" Raven's skills?
> Would anybody else believe him if he claimed she was possessed?
They might. My first reaction had been "they definitely would", but then I
thought again. See, she *was* possessed during the very last of her duels,
and there had been a noticeable change in her fighting style: this is
already in the story. So the people who had seen her (lots) wouldn't need
much convincing there. Except that there is a theory going around, that her
*sword* is in some way "guided" by the Raven (it used to belong to him);
and a prophecy that the Raven is going to be reincarnated as a baby with
some specific marks (the search is on, and a couple of likely candidates
have been found). A possession of this kind is not what people are
expecting.
More importantly, though, being possessed by the Raven wouldn't be
considered "cheating". At the moment, it would be considered grounds for
coronation ;-). And I don't want this to happen just yet.
> Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other house
> entirely?
A third House.
> How do the master-student relationships work across Houses--if
> Raven was of a different House from Harian, would Harian be expected to side
> with Raven or with his House if there were a dispute between the two?
With his own House, since he's not the Raven's apprentice any more (in fact
he's nobody's apprentice, he's "graduated" to full warrior).
> Would
> it be considered exceptionally odd of Siriee to be possessed by the spirit
> of someone not of her own House, or would that be the usual way of things?
Possession itself is not the usual way of things. The way it normally works
is reincarnation. In fact, this is what the whole novel revolves around...
(And yes, the fact that he's not of her own House makes things even more
unusual. And very complicated in a society which is entirely based on House
allegiance, since she finds herself being part of 2 Houses in a way which
has no precedents in traditional memory.[1])
> Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could be
> useful?
Does he now? This is a very interesting suggestion. He's a bit unreliable,
though, and mostly rather single-minded (he wants to accomplish his own
revenge, basically, and Harian isn't involved in that).
Lots of things to think about! Thanks,
Anna
[1] Once this story comes out, there would be some serious pressure on her
to get things "normalized" by marrying into the Raven's house;
unfortunately, the best candidate for a spouse (the Raven's younger sister,
and Siriee's sometime lover) is a rather sensitive shaman and would be a
tad spooked by her brother's presence in the bedroom...
Anna Mazzoldi
> Anna Mazzoldi AnnaU...@iol.ie wrote:
>>
>> <megasnips>
>>
>> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>>
>> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
>> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
>> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
>> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
>> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
>> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
>> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
>> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
>> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
>> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>>
>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>
>
> I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
> a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
> normal fantasy rails. :)
>
> Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
> child.
Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
"Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
As for the suggestion, I'm afraid that it wouldn't really fit that society
(though if it did, I certainly wouldn't put it past Harian at the moment).
Also, the Raven was only 2-3 years older than Harian, which would be
another problem. (He had become a famous warrior at an exceptionally young
age, which is why he was Harian's teacher despite the small difference in
age.)
> You might, perhaps, manage something similar with a less serious
> accusation.
Hm. Sex between teacher and apprentice is *the* sexual taboo in this
society (though nothing to do with age, since people who are old enough to
be apprentices are also considered old enough to have sex). However, by
doing this Harian would also be condemning _himself_ to death or exile, and
I'm not sure he's quite that desperate. But I think the main objection is
that the Raven is such a hero that it would take a lot more than Harian's
word for people to even seriously consider the possibility that he might
have done something as despicable as having sex with his apprentice.
Still... there would be some interesting possibilities there. Definitely
worth thinking about, it's an angle I hadn't considered at all.
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Enologay (sm):
Sommelier omosessuale, sostenitore
dei test nucleari
Anna Mazzoldi
> G'day Anna, some quick thoughts which came to mind while skimming
> through your post ... if it sounds daft, just ignore it :-)
>
> Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>>
>> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>
> That's got to be pretty high on the scale of shamefulness then:
> although what order that scale is in depends a lot on their culture.
> To us, it'd be attempted murder, or rape, but in your world maybe
> some other form of assault or defilement would be as significant.
Yes, pretty high indeed. The culture is quite different, though. Murder,
for a start, is defined very differently... wait a minute. The most
unforgivable thing (for a warrior) is killing someone who isn't a warrior.
If he went for one of Siriee's non-warrior relatives... But why would he?
(And I'd still prefer something connected to the Raven). As for rape, it
just doesn't happen. (There are good cultural reasons for that, trust me
;-) These people aren't _quite_ human, though they come very close.)
What else? The worst crimes of all would be treason to the city or to his
own House; sex with a pupil/teacher; "black" magic; killing a "whale". For
a warrior like Harian, a serious breach of honour would also count (as it
would dishonour his whole House, who would then have no choice but to
punish him) -- which could cover a lot of things in the way of unfair
fighting, cowardly behaviour or breaking his word.
>> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
>> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
>> as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
>> fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified).
>
> One question: is this just Siriee he doesn't stand a chance against,
> or Siriee/Raven? Eg: what is the nature of her posession?
He wouldn't stand a chance even against Siriee on her own. Though he might
delude himself that he would, in his current unbalanced state of mind. (The
nature of her possession is something that nobody in the story-world has a
clear handle on yet, including Siriee herself. Even the junkie shaman isn't
quite sure, and he's extremely close-mouthed anyway.)
> Does this added power bring with it added vulnerabilities?
It does, but he has no idea what they could be. Except I suppose for a
specific vulnerability to magic directed against the Raven -- as a
"spirit", he would be more vulnerable to magic than a "whole" person (who
has a few more things to rely on, including a solid body). This could be
useful, in fact.
>> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
>> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
>> to disappear from the scene.
>
> ... or perhaps she has to find evidence of this work, despite Harian's
> alibi ... after all, she needs to prove to _his_ house that he has
> acted dishonorably.
This might take time. I have less than 2 days, during which other important
things are going on. I suspect that if this was the case Siriee would just
drop the charge, or more likely put it aside until a few more urgent things
are solved (_she_ doesn't know about the time limit, only the author...)
>> [...] also, I'm not entirely sure what the black magic would have
>> accomplished exacly, and can't come up with anything appropriate
>> at this point
>
> The obvious thing to me would be an effect on the Siriee/Raven
> connection, rather than directly attacking either of them.
> Perhaps a reversal or a shift in their roles or a loss of
> communication between them would be enough to put two souls
> in conflict over one body. Perhaps this would be enough to
> disorient Siriee/Raven enough to be vulnerable.
Yes, that makes sense.
> Where would Raven be if he was not possessing Siriee?
Good question. I suspect he would simply be dead. (He would be in the
Shadows, and he would need a shaman to show him the way home; after which
he would "melt" into his House's blood like a good dead soul.)
(The general opinion, on the other hand, is that his soul is currently
inhabiting some new-born baby, and everybody is looking for the right baby
all over the city. Which is quite convenient for Siriee...)
> An assault directly on the soul would seem sufficient to deserve
> severe punishment ...
Indeed. But this would require telling everybody about the possession,
which I'd like to avoid.
On the other hand... people are expecting the Raven to be reincarnated. And
they have come to the conclusion that, for some mystical reason, Siriee is
fated to be the young reincarnation's protector. So if the attack was
clearly on the Raven, it would still be seen as falling within her remit
even if the actual whereabouts of the Raven's soul weren't known... Now
_this_ sounds useful! <scuttles off to reconsider a couple of possibilities
she'd previously discarded>
> Hope these ramblings have been useful,
I think they have. Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
A child of five could understand this!
Fetch me a child of five.
Peter C. Spahn
I'm more of a lurker than anything else. Assuming I understand your
problem, does the attack have to be through magic? What if Harian
uses poison. Perhaps a servant in the house is indebted to him for
some nefarious reason and ge agrees to poison mistress Siriee. The
servant gets caught (or perhaps has second thoughts) and gives up
Harian's name.
As to it being more of an attack on the Raven, perhaps the poison is
not designed to kill but instead render the victim a vegetable,
catatonic or (can't think of the right word) someone who is still
fully aware of their surroundings and conscious of what is happening
to them but their muscles are completely paralyzed, not even allowing
them to talk. I can think of few worse punishments for a master
swordsman.
Anyway, hope that helps and good luck.
Pete
--
Dreamwalker: Roleplaying in the Land of Dreams
http://DreamwalkerRPG.home.att.net
Download Dreamwalker's opening fiction:
http://home.att.net/~dreamwalkerrpg/Simpler_Times.pdf
Peter C. Spahn
>
>
> Alternatively, he could just poison her outright. I know someone who could
> get him the poison.
>
Well, hell. I guess I should read the entire thread before opening my
virtual mouth. :)
Pete
Eric Jarvis
I was watching the football over the weekend and Wolverhampton Wanderers
got a lot of coverage. A few years ago their manager, Dave Jones, was
accused of sexually assaulting a teenage boy in Liverpool. He lost his job
and spent nearly three years unable to find work. Yet he hadn't even been
in Liverpool at the time the assault was supposed to have occurred, and
he'd left the coaching job his accuser claimed he was in six months before
the alleged assault.
Hit the right taboo and the allegation is enough to really hurt even if
there is evidence to prove it false. In a medieval setting I suppose the
usual allegation would be heresy.
The normal unscrupulous attack in politics is the indirect and indistinct
one. Attacking somebody by making vague assertions about their political
allies is a common way that the "ethically disadvantaged" deal with anyone
who has a squeaky clean record. So in a modern setting it would be done by
starting a whispering campaign.
One of the most vicious trick is to take something utterly innocent, but
which can be presented as suspect, and to demand an explanation. As long
as the explanation is likely to be more complex than the "accusation",
then the mud will stick. Yet the accuser hasn't had to lie.
There was a perfect example of it a few years ago on our local council.
Two Labour councillors had expenses approximately 75% higher than anyone
else's, almost all of ot taxi fares. This was sent out as a press briefing
by the local conservatives. They neglected to mention that the two
councillors were the only two disabled people on the council and
consequently the only councillors who regularly required taxis. One of the
two ended up in hospital after she and her three children had been
besieged in their home for 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen
demanding a statement.
Sadly reality has more vicious examples of such things than my imagination
can manage.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"
Patricia C. Wrede
"Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:1e5ywwx98j36r$.1g70938qiy8c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
> Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
It may have to do with the font that they're reading messages in, remember.
> I'm not sure he's quite that desperate. But I think the main objection is
> that the Raven is such a hero that it would take a lot more than Harian's
> word for people to even seriously consider the possibility that he might
> have done something as despicable as having sex with his apprentice.
> Still... there would be some interesting possibilities there. Definitely
> worth thinking about, it's an angle I hadn't considered at all.
Is there only one apprentice per master, or were there several? Could
Harian accuse Raven of having sex with some *other* apprentice? Preferrably
one who's conveniently dead and can't testify to the contrary? Especially
nice if said apprentice died under mysterious circumstances? Could Harian
*threaten* to accuse Raven in order to get Siriee to do something useful to
him (like, meet him in a dark alley where he's got shamans all set to switch
the possession over to himself...or just a bunch of thugs to beat her up)?
Is he twisty enough to think of faking a letter with such a threat, on the
theory that she'll take it back to his House to complain and then he can
"prove" that it's not his own handwriting and make everybody think that
*she* was trying to frame *him*?
Patricia C. Wrede
Patricia C. Wrede
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:16:04 -0600, Patricia C. Wrede wrote:
> > Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other
house
> > entirely?
>
> A third House.
OK -- can he try to drag them into the mess somehow? Or, since you don't
want the possession to be common knowledge, can he arrange for something
*there* that Raven would surely want to go see about, thus neatly getting
Siriee away from her home ground? Using his inside knowledge of the
possession to manipulate her/them. Depending on the mores of the culture,
involving a third House in a two-House dispute might very well be considered
heinous enough to warrant exile; if that isn't enough, then whatever he
tries once she gets there might fill the bill.
> (And yes, the fact that he's not of her own House makes things even more
> unusual. And very complicated in a society which is entirely based on
House
> allegiance, since she finds herself being part of 2 Houses in a way which
> has no precedents in traditional memory.[1])
So is there some way Harian can use this to his perceived benefit?
Especially since at this point it's still a secret to everyone else?
> > Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could
be
> > useful?
>
> Does he now? This is a very interesting suggestion. He's a bit unreliable,
> though, and mostly rather single-minded (he wants to accomplish his own
> revenge, basically, and Harian isn't involved in that).
Hmm. Is there anything that both Raven and Harian know about, that Siriee
doesn't? I assume lots, actually, since Harian was Raven's apprentice, but
I mean something besides the usual master-apprentice stuff. Or...does
Harian know his old master well enough to know that he's set on revenge, and
who the revenge is on? He doesn't need to be *involved* in order to *know*
about it...and maybe there could be something there that he could use.
As for poisoning the sword, if you want to go that way, you could have
Harian send Siriee a fancy poisoned *scabbard*. Which will poison the sword
as soon as she puts it inside. Naturally, she wouldn't touch it if she knew
who it was from, so he'd have to send it in a way that made her think it was
from someone else. Like Raven's sister, the sometime lover, perhaps?
Preferrably with no note that could be traced back, but with some token that
would convince Siriee or Raven or both that it was real. Or that would
convince Siriee but not Raven (or vice versa), so that she's suspicious of
it right off.
Patricia C. Wrede
J?rg Raddatz
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
> not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
> rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
> chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
>
>
Hm. Let me try to sort what I have taken from other posts:
~ The possession is not generally known. Of Harians house, only he
himself knows of it. Right?
~ He has no obvious means of entering the house the protag belongs to.
~ He has access to magic, but not to extremely powerful magic.
It would really help to know what exactly constitutes "horrible,
shocking" in the eyes of his house. I understand that they are a
fighter-training institution, right? Are they obsessed with
*honourable* fighting, so a number of "too easy" methods (poison,
magic, perhaps even all ranged combat) is frowned upon? Are there some
(obscure but) important symbols he could misuse, which would make the
attempted crime more heinous - I mean, trying to kill a RC priest with
a knife in the back is bad, but poisoning his ceremonial wine (or the
chalice he will drink it from) is worse.
Generally, I think one good course may be: Siriee visits Herians house
in order to improve the situation between the two houses, to show some
goodwill. Perhaps even to give them some info they would really like
to have and which will be lost for them if she dies. So, when he uses
the opportunity and tries to kill her, he willingly compromises the
advantage of his own house.
the method he chooses is either
~ designed to make the Raven leave her body after she is dead and to
do something which would greatly favor him (make a declaration? enter
Harian?). For this, he needs magic. Can this be a kind of shamanic
magic that is very inappropriate in the worldview of his house? So, he
would not only break the vow of Hospitality they have given to Siriee,
he would use contemtible magic *and* destroy his houses chance to get
the valuable info.
~ or, he uses the situation to kidnap someone who is accompanying
Siriee and is very dear to her. Now he can try to blackmail her into
giving up the spirit of Raven, or ... hm, wait, new idea ...
Is there anyone who
~ has been a friend/dependant/relative of the Raven and is slso a
friend of Siriee
~ might accompany Siriee to Harians house (or wait outside?)
~ is either less powerful than Harian OR can be overwhelmed with a
dirty trick?
~ most important of it all, can be somehow convinced that Siriee is
responsible for the unplanned fate of the Raven (ie using him for her
own gain)? (An alternative would be, of course, mind magic, but then
it would be could if the victim is hit with magic especially designed
for him, not just a Generic Mind Control Ray [1].)
The idea is that Harian might not try to fight Siriee himself, but to
convince someone else that s/he has to fight his/her former friend
Siriee, who is presented as a Bad Bad Person by Harian.
This way, another duel would be much more interesting if Siriee does
not know *why* her friend suddenly tries to ikll her and really does
not want to kill him/her.
Jörg
[1] "being hit by a Mind Control Ray", OTOH, suddenly becomes much
more interesting if one imagines a large, smelly, dripping sorcerous
fish.
Thomas Lindgren
Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
> They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
huge political victory?
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
R. L.
wrote:
/snip/
>Harian attempts something
>unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
>life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
>to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
>grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
>What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
>action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
>as such.
I'd start by thinking what things would be shameful, and quite easy to
get caught at ... and then work out some reason why he might want to try
one of those.
I'm assuming that this late in the book, you'd want something really
simple and clear-cut.
Whatever he tries, I don't suppose he could write an incriminating
letter or diary or spell preparations or something? Then when he is
caught and/or the document found, S or an ally could blackmail him to
accept voluntary exile and/or let himself be thought guilty of something
else instead. They might have the threat of revealing R's presence, but
wouldn't have to really do it: H would give in.
Whatever kind of spell he is trying, here are some possibilities....
If access to S's house is a problem, how about H is trying to cast the
spell from a private place of his own -- except that Raven catches him
at it and manages to get someone else to 'coincidentally' show up and
catch H in the act: perhaps some other enemy of H.
What sort of tokens from the victim does magic need? Suppose H is trying
to collect S's hair or fingernail clippings or something, and falls into
the cesspool at S's House and is pulled out by third parties and jailed
for burglary? Maybe he's covered in muck and incoherent from landing on
his head, so no one bails him out till he's spent the night in the drunk
tank. Would that be shameful enough, regardless of what his spell was
about? Again, R could be responsible for the 'coincidence' of the third
parties coming along just then.
As to what kind of spell....
You say rape doesn't happen. However, sex with a teacher is taboo.
Suppose he tried to get Raven to leave S's body by means of himself
having sex with S. The idea being that R would not want to stay in a
body that had had sex with R's student.
Depending on sexual customs and why there is no rape, some sort of
attempted magical seduction/trickery/coercion of S might be considered
shameful enough per se, even by people who do not know about Raven.
If sufficient shame requires the master-student taboo, then maybe H's
attempt to have sex with Raven/S would be shame on H, if known.
Suppose H is using magic to try to get S to have sex with him. Might
there be some incriminating writing or drawing etc involved with the
spell? Or might he be doing some larger spell to try to get R to leave
S's body, in which something shameful with S was a part?
Other possibilities. Could R's connection be revealed or hinted only to
one discreet elder in H's house, or perhaps a priest, whose word is
sufficient to get H exiled? If so, could R himself communicate directly
with the elder? -- If so, this could hint at a nice new plot arc for
next volume, about this formerly-minor-character elder who is now in a
position to become a player.
R.L.
--
RL at houseboatonthestyx
SAMK
> Many thanks,
> Anna (goes away and looks speculatively at the list of Siriee's
> relatives...)
>
Does she have a relative that Raven was quite fond of, perhaps?
SAMK
J.Pascal
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>
> A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
In the spirit of a magic attack... he gets a *good* shaman/magic person
to prepare an exorcism and that good person goes where he can't go... and
he gets in far more trouble with his own people because of nearly
causing this other good, revered, person to commit an evil act, than if
he'd simply attacked her himself. The attack is clearly on Raven and he
gets extra bad mojo for corrupting (or attempting to corrupt) an innocent.
Khiem Tran
<snip>
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
Is Harian a viewpoint character? It could as simple as "he tries to
stab her in the back - he fails", if you show it from his POV and drag
it out a bit. (Will I? Won't I? Is Raven watching? One blow and it's
all over. Maybe she's in the same room with him and her back is turned
and her hands are occupied. Maybe the opportunity keeps coming up and
his nerve fails each time. Maybe he's agonizing over what to do. Try
it and fail and he's a dead man. But surely, not even Raven could do
anything about a knife in the back.) Maybe he's convinced that not
even Raven would expect it from him. Maybe he's bought some sort of
magic that's supposed neutralize Raven for a short period (the dead
Raven from the shaman?). (For bonus marks, when it does happen,
Siriee foils it in an heroic manner - reacting without Raven's help,
for example).
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
How about something putting his House above himself? Say, he endangers
people from his own House in his efforts to set up Siriee? The wrong
person drinks from the poisoned cup, for example, or he deliberately
thwarts Siriee when she does something to benefit his House as part of
the reparations.
I'm assuming that you want Harian as a villain. Do you want him to be
redeemed at some later stage? If so, another possibility would be for
him to do something that shames him so much that he goes into exile
without even being ordered to. Maybe his House never even finds out
the whole truth about it (except that he's dropped the demand for
revenge). He's already got a whole bag of issues - envy, inferiority,
fear, shame. Maybe he's about to do something terrible (against
someone else, not Siriee) and Siriee stops him. Maybe Siriee saves
_his_ life in a duel, repays the debt (as far as his House is
concerned), and also tips his own shame/inferiority complex over the
edge. cf Javert in Les Miserables.
Hope this helps,
Khiem.
J.Pascal
> In article <1b7w6re74vnws.1hjzsn9nbv016$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > because Siriee
> > would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
> > realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
> > the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
>
> On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
> leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
>
> It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
> any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
> are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
> one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
> is the female military order they belong to.
You have contraception? And does your female military order play
by mens rules or do they devise strategies to minimize the disadvantage of
being smaller?
But what is better for a society? One warrior, or several? Every
child born is one more hand to hold a sword... or a plow. And the
bottleneck in producing babies is the limit on wombs.
> I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
> the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
Or the image of the underdog, gender non-specific. It's simply not
*remarkable* when a big guy is a good fighter.
Brian Pickrell
>
> The thread is about this character called Harian. [...] Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such.
First comment: his plan doesn't need to be very clever or have much
chance of success, since the whole point is for him to get caught out.
He could try to stab her in the back or poison her little brother or
do evil voodoo that fails. Don't be more subtle than you need to.
Second comment: an easy way for him to deliver a backhanded slap at
the Raven is to himself violate the Raven's principles. Say the Raven
preached against poisoning little brothers his whole life; then Harian
gets caught trying to do exactly that; he announces that the Raven
taught him everything he knows; and Siriee offers to cut his throat.
Cally Soukup
> Yes, pretty high indeed. The culture is quite different, though. Murder,
> for a start, is defined very differently... wait a minute. The most
> unforgivable thing (for a warrior) is killing someone who isn't a warrior.
> If he went for one of Siriee's non-warrior relatives... But why would he?
> (And I'd still prefer something connected to the Raven). As for rape, it
> just doesn't happen. (There are good cultural reasons for that, trust me
> ;-) These people aren't _quite_ human, though they come very close.)
Can Harian set up some sort of ambush with a distance weapon such as a
bow, in a dark enough night/alley that he thinks he can get away -- but
it's too dark to see his victim clearly, and it's one of Siriee's
non-warrier relatives instead of Siriee herself? And he gets caught
red-handed?
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Anna Mazzoldi
Eh... That would be Siriee, I'm afraid ;-)
In fact, I've given this idea some thought, and I find that the main
problem with it isn't so much my own soft-heartedness, but that killing one
of Siriee's relatives off at this point in the story would seem rather
gratuitous. None of them were particularly linked to the Raven; and none of
them have been involved with Harian in the course of the story. If I killed
one of the relatives who have appeared as significant charachters, it would
be a very gratuitous way for them to die; if it was one of those who
haven't appeared much, it would seem like they've been put there simply as
a plot device (with some reason, too!) Although things in real life _do_
work like that often enough, it wouldn't be right in a story -- or in the
story I'm telling, anyway. If it had come at an earlier point in the story,
it would have been different, but it just feels wrong at this point.
So I'm keeping this at the back of my mind in case some link presents
itself that makes things look more consistent, but on the whole Siriee's
relatives can probably relax ;-) (They don't know what's going to hit them
in Chapter 20...)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Thomas de Torquemada: "Give me ten minutes with the chicken
and I'll find out."
Eric Jarvis
>
> "Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
> news:1e5ywwx98j36r$.1g70938qiy8c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
> > Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> > "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
>
> It may have to do with the font that they're reading messages in, remember.
>
Bear in mind also that my eyesight is significantly less than optimal.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of
them are no longer in stock"
Eric Jarvis
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> > disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> > who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> > after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> > 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
>
> Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> huge political victory?
>
Only if she was in a wheelchair. Not so in this case. Not all physical
disabilities are immediately visible.
However, the primary concern was getting the children out of the house. In
the end we used five cars and a van and a "snatch squad" of ten people,
used the cars to block the road to prevent any of the press following,
sent a couple of people to the front door as a diversion and then took
them out the back way.
Damn scary. Without doing anything untowards you can become public enemy
number one in a matter of a few hours, and there's very little you can do
to protect yourself from it.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
all these years I've waited for the revolution
and all we end up getting is spin
Mary Gentle
(Thomas Lindgren) wrote:
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> > disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> > who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> > after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> > 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
>
> Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> huge political victory?
If they have a wheelchair.
Not all disabled people are in wheelchairs -- even those who have mobility
problems rather than some other disability. There can be huge problems
with the "invisible injury" syndrome (blind people being treated as if
they're 'crazy' rather than not being able to see, etc).
Unless you do have some kind of visible 'accessory', the picture in the
papers will just make people say, "Oh, he/she looks perfectly normal; I
bet it's a scam."
Which, going back to Eric's original point, those people's political
enemies may well have been aware of.
Mary
GJ Pfeiffer
Mazzoldi <Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
>
>> Anna Mazzoldi AnnaU...@iol.ie wrote:
>>>
>>> <megasnips>
>>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>>
>>
>> I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
>> a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
>> normal fantasy rails. :)
>>
>> Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
>> child.
>
> Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
>
Erm ... make that three.
--
Glenda [formerly known as GJP and MamaG]
“Be careful of the words you say, keep them soft and sweet; You never know
from day to day which ones you'll have to eat.”
Unknown
David Langford
wrote (to Anna M.):
>Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
>will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
>writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
>personality traits that no one can think about him with
>neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
>talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
>you can possibly rename the character, I would.
I know this is based on a misreading of "Harian" (I read it that way
myself, first time around) but can't help mentioning that Anne McCaffrey
got away with it in her novel =Restoree=. Big studly leadership type called
Harlan, a major political force on the World Without Surnames.
Asimov put an (Andrew) Harlan in =The End of Eternity= (1955), but that was
before -- though only just before -- Ellison stories began to appear all
over the magazines.
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/