And the word of the day is...
Angie
share, especially since I've been trying to find new folk beliefs of
this type recently (not with sieves, just with foretelling). Not quite
sure how it would work though.
coscinomancy
============
divination, or foretelling the future, by the turning of a sieve. The
ending -mancy comes from manteia, the Greek word for divination, and
there are many words in English with this ending which refer to strange
and unlikely ways of predicting the future. They include tyromancy,
divination by watching cheese coagulate, and pedomancy, divination by
inspecting the soles of someone's feet.
Since I'm writing anyhow, hello's to those I met at Octocon at the
weekend - Charlie Stross, the two Anna's, and Ian Watson if you're
lurking. The whole con was greatly encouraging for my writing, and
everyone was so pleasant. Hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. I'm
gearing up now for NaNoWriMo...
Angie :)
Angie
folk beliefs of this type recently (not with sieves, just with
Steve Taylor
> coscinomancy
I read Robert Irwin's _Satan Wants Me_ a while ago, and enjoyed finding
'ambulomancy' - finding out where you're going by walking until you get
there.
> Angie :)
Steve
Brenda W. Clough
I have always wondered why 'haruspicy' -- divination by using livers,
such an old fashioned and popular method -- doesn't adhere to the
'-mancy' rule.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Steve Taylor
> I have always wondered why 'haruspicy' -- divination by using livers,
> such an old fashioned and popular method -- doesn't adhere to the
> '-mancy' rule.
I think it's because the livers need a bit of spice to make them yummy.
> Brenda
Steve
Steve Coltrin
Or at least some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org
I like the idea of Jack Valenti being sodomized by a
methamphetamine-crazed rhinoceros. And I vote. - Adam Thornton
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>I have always wondered why 'haruspicy' -- divination by using livers,
>such an old fashioned and popular method -- doesn't adhere to the
>'-mancy' rule.
If you want a serious answer, it's because it literally means "what
haruspices do."
A haruspex is a variety of Roman augur who looked at livers. "-spex"
is "someone who looks," cognate with, say, "spectacle," something you
look at.
I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/15/02
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, published by Tor.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
"liver."
David Goldfarb
Angie <al...@nospam.silveroak.co.uk> wrote:
>coscinomancy
>============
>divination, or foretelling the future, by the turning of a sieve. The
>ending -mancy comes from manteia, the Greek word for divination, and
>there are many words in English with this ending which refer to strange
>and unlikely ways of predicting the future. They include tyromancy,
>divination by watching cheese coagulate, and pedomancy, divination by
>inspecting the soles of someone's feet.
And kikkomancy, divination with soy sauce.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | [This space intentionally left blank.]
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
Steve Taylor
> And kikkomancy, divination with soy sauce.
Ouch!
Steve
Wilson Heydt
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <MPG.181e7ad88...@news.ntlworld.com>,
>Angie <al...@nospam.silveroak.co.uk> wrote:
>>coscinomancy
>>============
>>divination, or foretelling the future, by the turning of a sieve. The
>>ending -mancy comes from manteia, the Greek word for divination, and
>>there are many words in English with this ending which refer to strange
>>and unlikely ways of predicting the future. They include tyromancy,
>>divination by watching cheese coagulate, and pedomancy, divination by
>>inspecting the soles of someone's feet.
>
>And kikkomancy, divination with soy sauce.
And kkikk'tomancy is divination by watching Kif?
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Neil Barnes
news:rPrt9.9934$071.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
>
> Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than
> specifically "liver."
>
Presumably, that gave you the option of examining liver and lites
so you could see to do it in the dark!
--
Neil
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is the same name at ntlworld com.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
>
>Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
>"liver."
Yep, the green wobbly bits beside the liver.
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
Heather Jones
>
> Steve Taylor wrote:
>
> >Angie wrote:
> >
> >>coscinomancy
> >>
> >
> >I read Robert Irwin's _Satan Wants Me_ a while ago, and enjoyed finding
> >'ambulomancy' - finding out where you're going by walking until you get
> >there.
> >
>
> I have always wondered why 'haruspicy' -- divination by using livers,
> such an old fashioned and popular method -- doesn't adhere to the
> '-mancy' rule.
I'd be inclined to suggest that it's because haruspicy -- unlike
the vast majority of the "-mancy" terms -- is a real historical
phenomenon. The "-mancy" suffix was chosen for the productive
function. You want to invent a new type of peculiar divination?
Come up with a Latin term for it and tack on "mancy". But in a
culture in which different types omen-taking are a vital part of
everyday life, the names for each are likely to have evolved
independently, often from different roots, rather than being
generated by a linguistic formula.
ObSFC: this is directly parallel to the pattern of real cultures
eating apples, potatoes, and garlic while badly-generated sf-nal
cultures eat things like "red-fruit", "white-root", and
"smelly-herb". :)
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Michael dot Grant
>coscinomancy
>============
>divination, or foretelling the future, by the turning of a sieve.
The sieve was balanced on a pair of shears, and was used in the Middle
Ages to identify thieves -- the sieve would turn, supposedly of its
own accord, to point at the thief.
Just don't do what I did and describe a wizard armed with a pair of
shears as a hedge wizard. :o)
--------------------< Mchl...@phlogiston.aethernet >------------------------
Don't look behind you; the lemmings are catching up.=8-0| Risus Sardonicus :-]
I am Cyrano de Borg. Rhinoplasty is futile. You will | Roadrunner@
address me in verse. | Michael-Grant.me.uk
-------------------< http://www.michael-grant.me.uk/ >------------------------
Lucinda Welenc
>
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
>
> Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
> "liver."
Hence the saying of the day? OK, what's the feminine of 'haruspex'? My
Latin grammar is long dead...
--
Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
If I want your opinion, I'll read it from your entrails! -- Elvira
Lucinda Welenc
>
> ObSFC: this is directly parallel to the pattern of real cultures
> eating apples, potatoes, and garlic while badly-generated sf-nal
> cultures eat things like "red-fruit", "white-root", and
> "smelly-herb". :)
That's always bothered me about the Pern novels. If redfruits are
apples and runnerbeasts are horses, why not say so? It smacks of
smeerpism to me. And if they're NOT apples and horses, then they need
real names, not generic tags.
--
Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
Take heed of enemies reconciled, and of meat twice boiled. - English
proverb.
Manny Olds
> Heather Jones wrote:
>>
>> ObSFC: this is directly parallel to the pattern of real cultures
>> eating apples, potatoes, and garlic while badly-generated sf-nal
>> cultures eat things like "red-fruit", "white-root", and
>> "smelly-herb". :)
> That's always bothered me about the Pern novels. If redfruits are
> apples and runnerbeasts are horses, why not say so? It smacks of
> smeerpism to me. And if they're NOT apples and horses, then they need
> real names, not generic tags.
Names are always a problem, though. At least from what I have read here.
What do you translate and what do you leave "in the original"?
There is an instrument called a "scheitholt", which literally means
(AFAIK) something like "split wood". So if you have someone playing a
scheitholt-analog, what do you call it in your story? "Zither"?
"Dulcimer"? "Strum Stick"? Or would you populate your alien orchestra with
violins, lutes, xylophones, and clarinets?
What is smeerpian for "Sousaphone", anyway?
Some English words are not the same kind of English as "house" or
"stylus".
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely
challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn
between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world.
This makes it hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <3DB70324...@cablespeed.com>, Lucinda Welenc
<lwe...@cablespeed.com> wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> > <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > >I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
> >
> > Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
> > "liver."
>
> Hence the saying of the day? OK, what's the feminine of 'haruspex'? My
> Latin grammar is long dead...
There isn't one -- they were all male. Seriously. I don't think
you can straightforwardly derive a feminine from words in -ex
(though most of them would have been in -fex, like pontifex,
which means "he who makes (something)")
I'm fairly confident that this is the case, but if it isn't I'm
sure I'll be corrected...
Ciao,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi writing from Dublin, Ireland
"You look like Billie Holiday with a hibiscus flower
on her ear, except it's a purple orangutan." --Laurence
Dorothy J Heydt
>Latin grammar is long dead...
Haruspica, according to my great big fat Lewis and Short.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:
> In article <3DB70324...@cablespeed.com>, Lucinda Welenc
><lwe...@cablespeed.com> wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
>> > <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
>> >
>> > Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
>> > "liver."
>>
>> Hence the saying of the day? OK, what's the feminine of 'haruspex'? My
>> Latin grammar is long dead...
>
>There isn't one -- they were all male. Seriously. I don't think
>you can straightforwardly derive a feminine from words in -ex
>(though most of them would have been in -fex, like pontifex,
>which means "he who makes (something)")
>
>I'm fairly confident that this is the case, but if it isn't I'm
>sure I'll be corrected...
See above.... it's haruspica, has its own entry in Lewis and
Short....
Dorothy J Heydt
Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>There is an instrument called a "scheitholt", which literally means
>(AFAIK) something like "split wood". So if you have someone playing a
>scheitholt-analog, what do you call it in your story? "Zither"?
>"Dulcimer"? "Strum Stick"? Or would you populate your alien orchestra with
>violins, lutes, xylophones, and clarinets?
I seem to recall that a scheitholt is a wind instrument anyway.
So you could call it an oboe or a schawm or a bassoon. (All
split-reed instruments, which may be what the term means.)
Or invent some other nice-sounding name, the way Poul Anderson
used to. King-horn, sunderhorn, woodhorn, waterhorn, stonereed,
silverreed, bull-reed, featherreed, waterdrum, stonebell,
waterbell, ... I seem to be inventing a gamelan, which is perhaps
not a bad thing.
Manny Olds
> In article <ap71l7$ruj$1...@news1.radix.net>,
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>There is an instrument called a "scheitholt", which literally means
>>(AFAIK) something like "split wood". So if you have someone playing a
>>scheitholt-analog, what do you call it in your story? "Zither"?
>>"Dulcimer"? "Strum Stick"? Or would you populate your alien orchestra with
>>violins, lutes, xylophones, and clarinets?
> I seem to recall that a scheitholt is a wind instrument anyway.
No, it is the precursor of the dulcimer (sort of a dulcimer without the
soundbox). It is in the zither class.
> Or invent some other nice-sounding name, the way Poul Anderson
> used to. King-horn, sunderhorn, woodhorn, waterhorn, stonereed, [...]
But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I think that the
problem is not doing it, it is that "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are
clunkers.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"You have too much respect upon the world:
They lose it that do buy it with much care."
-- Wm. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice
Brian M. Scott
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>"Brenda W. Clough" wrote:
[...]
>> I have always wondered why 'haruspicy' -- divination by using livers,
>> such an old fashioned and popular method -- doesn't adhere to the
>> '-mancy' rule.
>
>I'd be inclined to suggest that it's because haruspicy -- unlike
>the vast majority of the "-mancy" terms -- is a real historical
>phenomenon. The "-mancy" suffix was chosen for the productive
>function. You want to invent a new type of peculiar divination?
>Come up with a Latin term for it and tack on "mancy". But in a
>culture in which different types omen-taking are a vital part of
>everyday life, the names for each are likely to have evolved
>independently, often from different roots, rather than being
>generated by a linguistic formula.
It does, however, provide a model that *could* have been used to
generate more. The <haru-> is from the same PIE root that gave
us 'yarn', 'cord', and 'hernia', apparently signifying 'gut,
entrails', and the rest is from a root meaning 'to observe' (as
in 'spectacles', 'inspect', etc.). Thus, someone who examined
spcifically livers could have been a jecuspex, and his art,
jecuspicy.
[...]
Brian
Steve Taylor
>>Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
>>"liver."
> Yep, the green wobbly bits beside the liver.
Aren't the soul?
> vlatko
Steve
Steve Taylor
> Aren't the soul?
Aargh. Try:
Aren't they the soul?
Steve
Laura M. Parkinson
blue:
>On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:01:43 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:49:00 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
>><lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I assume "harus" is "liver," but I never actually checked.
>>
>>Okay, I checked. It's actually "entrails," rather than specifically
>>"liver."
>
>Yep, the green wobbly bits beside the liver.
Just don't eat the green wobbly bits!
--
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Patricia J. Hawkins
MO> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <ap71l7$ruj$1...@news1.radix.net>,
>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is an instrument called a "scheitholt", which literally means
>>> (AFAIK) something like "split wood". So if you have someone playing a
>>> scheitholt-analog, what do you call it in your story? "Zither"?
>>> "Dulcimer"? "Strum Stick"? Or would you populate your alien orchestra with
>>> violins, lutes, xylophones, and clarinets?
Axe, surely. :)
>> I seem to recall that a scheitholt is a wind instrument anyway.
MO> No, it is the precursor of the dulcimer (sort of a dulcimer without the
MO> soundbox). It is in the zither class.
>> Or invent some other nice-sounding name, the way Poul Anderson
>> used to. King-horn, sunderhorn, woodhorn, waterhorn, stonereed, [...]
MO> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I think that the
MO> problem is not doing it, it is that "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are
MO> clunkers.
Unlike poison ivy and virginia creeper, and canada mayflower. Oh, and
woodpecker, and yellow-bellied sapsucker.
I know, the problem is that she doesn't make it work; bothered me, too.
--
Patricia J. Hawkins
Neil Barnes
news:ap78j5$2vk$1...@news1.radix.net:
> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
> think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
> "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
>
Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
David O'Brien
wrote:
>Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
>news:ap78j5$2vk$1...@news1.radix.net:
>
>> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
>> think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
>> "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
>>
>
>Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
Well, berries are fine, but 'redfruit'? *CLUNK*
Whereas she had 'wherries' and 'watchwhers', and that worked a lot
better.
dave
--
dave o'brien - http://www.diaspoir.net
Exactly why the Galaxy has so many humanoid species is not entirely clear.
Perhaps to soak up the interstellar alcohol. -- Avery Andrews, rasfw
Brian M. Scott
<spam...@diaspoir.net> wrote:
>On 24 Oct 2002 06:02:45 GMT, Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
>>news:ap78j5$2vk$1...@news1.radix.net:
>>> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
>>> think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
>>> "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
>>Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
>Well, berries are fine, but 'redfruit'? *CLUNK*
Hard to say why it clunks, though. For red cabbage German has
<Rotkraut>, which is literally just 'red leafy vegetable' (more
or less), and it doesn't sound odd. (It's true that <Kraut> is
also specifically 'cabbage', but that's not the first thing that
comes to mind when I see it.) Perhaps 'fruit' is simply too
general a term.
[...]
Brian
Neil Barnes
news:ej8fruc9apbnq0civ...@4ax.com:
> On 24 Oct 2002 06:02:45 GMT, Neil Barnes
> <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
>>news:ap78j5$2vk$1...@news1.radix.net:
>>
>>> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
>>> think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
>>> "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
>>>
>>
>>Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
>
> Well, berries are fine, but 'redfruit'? *CLUNK*
Starfruit, sharonfruit, grapefruit, breadfruit...? No colours I
can think of, though.
>
> Whereas she had 'wherries' and 'watchwhers', and that worked a
> lot better.
True...
Zeborah
> ObSFC: this is directly parallel to the pattern of real cultures
> eating apples, potatoes, and garlic while badly-generated sf-nal
> cultures eat things like "red-fruit", "white-root", and
> "smelly-herb". :)
The problem is that if you invent real words for all the foods, and talk
about cooking a lot, then your poor readers are going to feel like
they've been thrown into a dictionary. I've tried doing about
half-half, but it still doesn't work the way I want.
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000 (updated 3rd August)
Darn Book's wordcount: 123,373 (YES!) and decreasing
Zeborah
> The sieve was balanced on a pair of shears, and was used in the Middle
> Ages to identify thieves -- the sieve would turn, supposedly of its
> own accord, to point at the thief.
>
> Just don't do what I did and describe a wizard armed with a pair of
> shears as a hedge wizard. :o)
Speaking of shears, does anyone know what you'd call the pair of
scissors which is used in making candy and then for making a kind of
percussion music to tell people, "Hey, candy over here, come and buy
it!"? Or is this just a Korean thing?
Brenda W. Clough
>Michael dot Grant <usenet...@Michael.Grant.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>The sieve was balanced on a pair of shears, and was used in the Middle
>>Ages to identify thieves -- the sieve would turn, supposedly of its
>>own accord, to point at the thief.
>>
>>Just don't do what I did and describe a wizard armed with a pair of
>>shears as a hedge wizard. :o)
>>
>
>Speaking of shears, does anyone know what you'd call the pair of
>scissors which is used in making candy and then for making a kind of
>percussion music to tell people, "Hey, candy over here, come and buy
>it!"? Or is this just a Korean thing?
>
>Zeborah
>
I would call them candy snips.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Dorothy J Heydt
Zeborah <zeb...@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>Michael dot Grant <usenet...@Michael.Grant.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> The sieve was balanced on a pair of shears, and was used in the Middle
>> Ages to identify thieves -- the sieve would turn, supposedly of its
>> own accord, to point at the thief.
>>
>> Just don't do what I did and describe a wizard armed with a pair of
>> shears as a hedge wizard. :o)
>
>Speaking of shears, does anyone know what you'd call the pair of
>scissors which is used in making candy and then for making a kind of
>percussion music to tell people, "Hey, candy over here, come and buy
>it!"? Or is this just a Korean thing?
Perhaps it is, since I haven't heard of it, but I haven't
traveled a lot.
Dorothy J Heydt
Zeborah <zeb...@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>Heather Jones <hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> ObSFC: this is directly parallel to the pattern of real cultures
>> eating apples, potatoes, and garlic while badly-generated sf-nal
>> cultures eat things like "red-fruit", "white-root", and
>> "smelly-herb". :)
>
>The problem is that if you invent real words for all the foods, and talk
>about cooking a lot, then your poor readers are going to feel like
>they've been thrown into a dictionary. I've tried doing about
>half-half, but it still doesn't work the way I want.
If the people are Earth-humans (or alternate-world equivalents),
you can use the same words. If not, you're going to have to make
up the new terms and introduce them one by one, with a little
hinting at what they are and what they taste like.
Steven Brust has done moderately well at this. His Easterners
are in fact rootstock humans, originally from Earth a helluva
long time ago, and many of the critters and condiments Vlad cooks
with are Earth things with recognizable names. Others appear to
have been on the planet when the humans arrived, and he's amused
himself by giving us hints as to what some of them are and
leaving us in the dark about others. Eventually, if we get all
eighteen or more Vlad books and however many of the other ones,
we may find out.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<phaw...@connact.com> wrote:
>MO> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I think that the
>MO> problem is not doing it, it is that "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are
>MO> clunkers.
>
>Unlike poison ivy and virginia creeper, and canada mayflower. Oh, and
>woodpecker, and yellow-bellied sapsucker.
>
>I know, the problem is that she doesn't make it work; bothered me, too.
It doesn't work for the simple reason it's bad.
If it were "acadian horse" or "moon-apple" it *might* work, because
such back (or front?) formations are common quite enough in
practically any language. And one of the word-parts is (always?)
specific* enough. runner-beast or red-berry are too generic. Any beast
runs, there are zillions of red berries.
* Woodpecker refers to a quite specific bird, just like sapsucker.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
>Steve Taylor wrote:
>
>Aren't they the soul?
Mince them, dry them, grind them into dust and show me which part is
the soul. Exactly.
vlatko :-)
Boudewijn Rempt
>>Steve Taylor wrote:
>>
>>Aren't they the soul?
>
> Mince them, dry them, grind them into dust and show me which part is
> the soul. Exactly.
>
When someone quoted that quip to me in real life, I asked him
to follow the same procedure with a CD -- and them show me where
the music is :-).
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Manny Olds
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:54:50 GMT, Steve Taylor <sm...@ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
>>Steve Taylor wrote:
>>
>>Aren't they the soul?
> Mince them, dry them, grind them into dust and show me which part is
> the soul. Exactly.
The part that isn't there any more after you mince, etc.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland USA
"This information has been presented as a service to those who need
something to get upset about." -- Joy Beeson
Heather Jones
> Starfruit, sharonfruit, grapefruit, breadfruit...? No colours I
> can think of, though.
This gets back to the theme that "fiction, unlike real life, must
be plausible". If I'd first encountered "breadfruit" or
"starfruit" in an sf novel, it would have clunked.
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Brooks Moses
> Neil Barnes wrote:
> > Starfruit, sharonfruit, grapefruit, breadfruit...? No colours I
> > can think of, though.
>
> This gets back to the theme that "fiction, unlike real life, must
> be plausible". If I'd first encountered "breadfruit" or
> "starfruit" in an sf novel, it would have clunked.
I wonder if it's relevant to that that "starfruit" is (IIRC) a fairly
recently-coined name for the fruit, intended to be attached to it for
import purposes. Somewhat like kiwifruit, I think -- I seem to recall
that that, also, is not called "kiwi" in its native area.
- Brooks
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <3db7f373....@enews.newsguy.com>,
Well, there is passion fruit, starfruit, kiwi fruit -- and I'm
sure there are more that I can't think of right now. AFAIK, the
only one of these three where the "fruit" bit can be omitted is
kiwi (and only if context makes it clear that we're talking about
a fruit, not a bird or a person).
Yes, if "redfruit" are apples I would call them apples, but if
they aren't, then "redfruit" is as good as any other name.
Also, apple seems to be the "default fruit name" in various
European languages, so you have pomme-de-terre (potato in
French), pomodoro (tomato in Italian) and other similar words. So
maybe I'd like it better if the fruit was called a redapple
(especially if it _wasn't_ an actual apple), but that's just my
own personal linguistic aesthetics... ;-)
Catja Pafort
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
> > But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
> > think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
> > "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
> >
>
> Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
What's a cloudberry? (Probably not shaped like a cloud, just as a
gooseberry isn't shaped as a goose).
What clunked were a) the terms and b) the fact that we were supposed to
very slowly find out that they're earth animals.
Catja
Dorothy J Heydt
>I wonder if it's relevant to that that "starfruit" is (IIRC) a fairly
>recently-coined name for the fruit, intended to be attached to it for
>import purposes.
That's the cherimoya, isn't it?
Somewhat like kiwifruit, I think -- I seem to recall
>that that, also, is not called "kiwi" in its native area.
"Chinese gooseberry" I think.
Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
(maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
>- Brooks
Dorothy J Heydt
Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Neil wrote:
>
>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
>
>> > But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
>> > think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
>> > "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
>>
>> Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
>
>What's a cloudberry? (Probably not shaped like a cloud, just as a
>gooseberry isn't shaped as a goose).
If I'm thinking of the right thing, it's like a raspberry (the
little globs that make up the berry pull away from the stem when
you pick it) but pale pinkish-gold in color, native to the
Pacific Northwest.
Beth Friedman
Heydt), <H4JI4...@kithrup.com>, wrote:
>In article <3DB8F981...@cits1.stanford.edu>,
>Brooks Moses <bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>Heather Jones wrote:
>>> Neil Barnes wrote:
>
>>I wonder if it's relevant to that that "starfruit" is (IIRC) a fairly
>>recently-coined name for the fruit, intended to be attached to it for
>>import purposes.
>
>That's the cherimoya, isn't it?
No, cherimoya was a bullfrog (was a good friend of mine). The other
name for starfruit is carambola.
>Somewhat like kiwifruit, I think -- I seem to recall
>>that that, also, is not called "kiwi" in its native area.
>
>"Chinese gooseberry" I think.
Yep. The name was deliberately changed for marketing purposes. I
think it was a good idea, too.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Lucinda Welenc
> But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I think that the
> problem is not doing it, it is that "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are
> clunkers.
>
I think because the terms don't follow what would probably happen with
linguistic drift. In the later books, when they dug up the AIVAS
computer, there was mention made that the Harpers had tried very hard to
maintain 'linguistic purity' but it was obvious to the AIVAS that the
language had drifted. So 'horse' might have become 'hurrse' or 'orose',
'apple' become 'epple' or 'apola' but not jumped to a generic
'runnerbeast' and 'redfruit'.
--
Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
You know how it is when you're reading a book and falling asleep, you're
reading, reading...and all of a sudden you notice your eyes are closed?
I'm like that all the time. -- Steven Wright
James F. Cornwall
>
> In article <1fklypo.14wxw8a1hg4egiN%green...@cix.co.uk>,
> Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >Neil wrote:
> >
> >> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote in
> >
> >> > But that is what the original criticism of McCaffrey was. I
> >> > think that the problem is not doing it, it is that
> >> > "runnerbeast" and "redberry" are clunkers.
> >>
> >> Yet, blueberry, cloudberry, strawberry, blackberry...
> >
> >What's a cloudberry? (Probably not shaped like a cloud, just as a
> >gooseberry isn't shaped as a goose).
>
> If I'm thinking of the right thing, it's like a raspberry (the
> little globs that make up the berry pull away from the stem when
> you pick it) but pale pinkish-gold in color, native to the
> Pacific Northwest.
>
We knew those as "salmonberries".
Jim (native Seattleite)
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Albany, California
> djh...@kithrup.com
> http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
--
*** NOTE ANTI-SPAMMED EMAIL ADDY ***
===========================================================
Poetry shamelessly stolen from some guy on a newsgroup:
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire trembling,
The trembling becomes a warning.
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion"
Anna Mazzoldi
[following up on my own post to clear a possible ambiguity and
also to point out a neat ObWriting that had escaped me
originally.]
In article <qc2erugdp7q36rjcj...@4ax.com>, Anna
Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There isn't one -- they were all male. Seriously. I don't think
> you can straightforwardly derive a feminine from words in -ex
> (though most of them would have been in -fex, like pontifex,
> which means "he who makes (something)")
Bridges in the case of the Pontifex, which is one of those really
interesting insights on an alien culture that all of us would
like to drop casually into our own WIPs... ;-)
Neil Barnes
news:3DB8F981...@cits1.stanford.edu:
Indeed. And I was first introduced to it as a 'chinese
gooseberry'.
Catja Pafort
> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
What I've noticed is that quite often every nationality blames someone
else on things they don't like. Certain illnesses come to mind, as well
as a not-particularly nice bit for horses that's quite well spread,
which has half a dozen names - depending on your nationality...
Catja
Julian Flood
"Dorothy J Heydt" wrote
(the
> little globs
ON TOPIC: drupules
> that make up the berry pull away from the stem when
> you pick it) but pale pinkish-gold in color, native to the
> Pacific Northwest.
It's a sort of yellow blackberry in the illos in my book.
JF
Dorothy J Heydt
Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Dorothy wrote:
>
>> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
>> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
>> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
>> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
>
>I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
French leave is going AWOL. It isn't really leave.
Indian corn is maize, not wheat (which is what the early Englishg
settlers in NorAm referred to as "corn", but it wouldn't grow
there).
A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
getting in each other's way.
John Johnson
> In article <1fkm8u5.1x3smpi25cb2mN%green...@cix.co.uk>,
> Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >Dorothy wrote:
> >
> >> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
> >> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
> >> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
> >> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
> >
> >I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
>
> French leave is going AWOL. It isn't really leave.
>
> Indian corn is maize, not wheat (which is what the early Englishg
> settlers in NorAm referred to as "corn", but it wouldn't grow
> there).
>
> A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
> getting in each other's way.
Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
times?
--
John Johnson
"A cry in the dark . . ."
http://johnajohnson.diaryland.com
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Pafort) wrote:
>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
Just like in Croatian.
I'd like to know where the French picked the name from - Lete
Indienne. (Scuse my French.)
vlatko
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> [following up on my own post to clear a possible ambiguity and
> also to point out a neat ObWriting that had escaped me
> originally.]
>
> In article <qc2erugdp7q36rjcj...@4ax.com>, Anna
> Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There isn't one -- they were all male. Seriously. I don't think
> > you can straightforwardly derive a feminine from words in -ex
> > (though most of them would have been in -fex, like pontifex,
> > which means "he who makes (something)")
>
> Bridges in the case of the Pontifex, which is one of those really
> interesting insights on an alien culture that all of us would
> like to drop casually into our own WIPs... ;-)
If you live in a city crossed by a great big river, like Ankh-Morpork
or, er, Rome, bridges are really important things. I understand the
pontifexes only presided over their inauguration though, they didn't
actually build the things or designed them either. I wonder how the word
came to signify the Pope though.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Dorothy J Heydt
John Johnson <john.j...@idf.centerpartners.com> wrote:
>In article <H4K19...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>
>> getting in each other's way.
>
>Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
>everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
>times?
Anything is possible, but I've never heard it used that way.
Marilee J. Layman
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <1fkm8u5.1x3smpi25cb2mN%green...@cix.co.uk>,
>Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>Dorothy wrote:
>>
>>> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
>>> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
>>> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
>>> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
>>
>>I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
>
>French leave is going AWOL. It isn't really leave.
>
>Indian corn is maize, not wheat (which is what the early Englishg
>settlers in NorAm referred to as "corn", but it wouldn't grow
>there).
>
>A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
>getting in each other's way.
Where I come from, a Chinese fire-drill is when the car stops at a
light, everybody gets out and runs around the car, and gets back in.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Dan Goodman
green...@cix.co.uk:
> Dorothy wrote:
>
>> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
>> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
>> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
>> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
>
> I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
Indian corn is maize. A Chinese fire-drill is a bunch of people rushing
around, ending up where they had been before.
Others include: Welsh rabbit.
Tennessee toothpick: Bowie knife.
Oklahoma credit card: siphon, specifically in its use for extracting
gasoline from someone else's car.
Boston marriage (obsolete): permanent lesbian relationship.
Mexican Marlboros (obsolete) marijuana.
Not quite in the same category is Baja Oklahoma for Texas.
Wilson Heydt
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <MPG.1823726c3...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>John Johnson <john.j...@idf.centerpartners.com> wrote:
>>In article <H4K19...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>>
>>> A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
>>> getting in each other's way.
>>
>>Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
>>everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
>>times?
>
>Anything is possible, but I've never heard it used that way.
I'm familiar with it in that context, but I think that's a special
case derived from the general one.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Wilson Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>green...@cix.co.uk (Catja Pafort) wrote in news:1fkm8u5.1x3smpi25cb2mN%
>green...@cix.co.uk:
>
>> Dorothy wrote:
>>
>>> Which opens a whole 'nother can of worms, the habit of English
>>> (maybe other languages too) of using "name of different
>>> ethnicity" to mean "not the real thing". E.g., French leave,
>>> Dutch courage, Indian summer, Indian corn, Chinese fire-drill.
>>
>> I don't even know French leave, Indian corn, or chinese fire-drills...
>
>Indian corn is maize. A Chinese fire-drill is a bunch of people rushing
>around, ending up where they had been before.
>
>Others include: Welsh rabbit.
>
>Tennessee toothpick: Bowie knife.
There is a knife blade design specifically known as a 'Arkansas
Toothpick'.
>Oklahoma credit card: siphon, specifically in its use for extracting
>gasoline from someone else's car.
>Boston marriage (obsolete): permanent lesbian relationship.
>Mexican Marlboros (obsolete) marijuana.
>
>Not quite in the same category is Baja Oklahoma for Texas.
Mexican Overdrive: Putting the shift in neutral (or even turning
the engine off) and rolling down a long hill.
John Johnson
> In article <MPG.1823726c3...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> John Johnson <john.j...@idf.centerpartners.com> wrote:
> >In article <H4K19...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
> >>
> >> A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
> >> getting in each other's way.
> >
> >Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
> >everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
> >times?
>
> Anything is possible, but I've never heard it used that way.
Growing up that's the only way I've ever heard it described.
Brian M. Scott
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> [following up on my own post to clear a possible ambiguity and
>> also to point out a neat ObWriting that had escaped me
>> originally.]
>> In article <qc2erugdp7q36rjcj...@4ax.com>, Anna
>> Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > There isn't one -- they were all male. Seriously. I don't think
>> > you can straightforwardly derive a feminine from words in -ex
>> > (though most of them would have been in -fex, like pontifex,
>> > which means "he who makes (something)")
>> Bridges in the case of the Pontifex, which is one of those really
>> interesting insights on an alien culture that all of us would
>> like to drop casually into our own WIPs... ;-)
>If you live in a city crossed by a great big river, like Ankh-Morpork
>or, er, Rome, bridges are really important things. I understand the
>pontifexes only presided over their inauguration though, they didn't
>actually build the things or designed them either. I wonder how the word
>came to signify the Pope though.
It first signified a bishop generally, but especially the bishop
of Rome, who was in full the sovereign pontiff (or pontifex).
Presumably this was a direct translation of the Roman usage into
a Christian setting.
By the way, the original meaning of Latin <pons> was 'way,
passage', and the pontifex was he who prepared the way.
Brian
Heather Jones
> Well, there is passion fruit, starfruit, kiwi fruit -- and I'm
> sure there are more that I can't think of right now. AFAIK, the
> only one of these three where the "fruit" bit can be omitted is
> kiwi (and only if context makes it clear that we're talking about
> a fruit, not a bird or a person).
If you have the right context, you can leave out the "fruit" of
"passion fruit". I'm reasonably sure that I've seen exotic
fruit-juice mixtures that were labeled things like
"passion-mango". If starfruit were more common, it would
probably be possible to shorten it similarly -- it's just too
unfamiliar to most people.
Zeborah
[redfruit]
> Well, there is passion fruit, starfruit, kiwi fruit -- and I'm
> sure there are more that I can't think of right now. AFAIK, the
> only one of these three where the "fruit" bit can be omitted is
> kiwi (and only if context makes it clear that we're talking about
> a fruit, not a bird or a person).
Alas, in most of the world, near as I can tell, "kiwi" refers first (if
not only) to the fruit.
> Yes, if "redfruit" are apples I would call them apples, but if
> they aren't, then "redfruit" is as good as any other name.
I think it's because *both* "red" *and* "fruit" are too general. (Did
someone already say that? If so, I'm agreeing with them.)
> Also, apple seems to be the "default fruit name" in various
> European languages, so you have pomme-de-terre (potato in
> French), pomodoro (tomato in Italian) and other similar words. So
> maybe I'd like it better if the fruit was called a redapple
> (especially if it _wasn't_ an actual apple), but that's just my
> own personal linguistic aesthetics... ;-)
When I was researching exotic fruits, there were many many fruits with
-apple.
"redapple" would be strange, though, just because my default image of an
apple is red. It'd give me a "So what's new?" reaction. (I did try to
use "greenpeas" in my alien culture, to imply that their pea-equivalent
isn't normally green. But I'm not sure that worked.)
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000 (updated 3rd August)
Darn Book's wordcount: 123,373 (YES!) and decreasing
Brian M. Scott
<john.j...@idf.centerpartners.com> wrote:
>In article <H4K58...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>> In article <MPG.1823726c3...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>> John Johnson <john.j...@idf.centerpartners.com> wrote:
>> >In article <H4K19...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>> >> A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
>> >> getting in each other's way.
>> >Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
>> >everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
>> >times?
>> Anything is possible, but I've never heard it used that way.
>Growing up that's the only way I've ever heard it described.
I learned it as Dorothy did and only encountered your version
much later. I've always assumed that yours was originally a joke
but has subsequently taken on a life of its own.
Brian
Steve Taylor
>> A Chinese fire-drill is everybody running around in panic mode
>> getting in each other's way.
> Er . . you sure it isn't stopping your car at a red light and having
> everyone jump out to switch seats? Maybe running around the car a few
> times?
Only in the _Illuminatus_ novels, as I recall.
> John Johnson
Steve
John Johnson
says...
Who knows. I do know that I remember doing it more than once in high
school (10 years ago), and having learned it from others I can only
assume it's been around longer than that. Maybe it's a regional thing?
John Johnson
says...
?
(Never read 'em so I don't know the reference.)
Lucinda Welenc
Pope is the way to God.
--
L'il old pagan Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. --
Ashleigh
Brilliant
Lucinda Welenc
depending on one's gender and position in the square.
--
Irina Rempt
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:00:11 +0100, green...@cix.co.uk (Catja
> Pafort) wrote:
>
>>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
>
> Just like in Croatian.
And Dutch, unless it happens at the end of September; then it's
"Sint-Michielszomertje" ("St. Michael's little summer").
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
Brian M. Scott
I'm sure that it's been around longer than that, but from my
point of view ten years ago is, well, maybe not yesterday, but
still very recent.
Brian
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
>By the way, the original meaning of Latin <pons> was 'way,
>passage', and the pontifex was he who prepared the way.
ObSF: In other words, a hollower.
Heather Jones
>
> On Friday 25 October 2002 23:56 Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:00:11 +0100, green...@cix.co.uk (Catja
> > Pafort) wrote:
> >
> >>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
> >
> > Just like in Croatian.
>
> And Dutch, unless it happens at the end of September; then it's
> "Sint-Michielszomertje" ("St. Michael's little summer").
In my dialect, that period of the autumn when you get a period of
sudden intense warming before true winter weather sets in is
called something like "wildfire weather". The rains haven't
started yet so everything's still gold and brown from the summer,
and then the hot dry winds sweep through for long days at a time
and any excuse turns into a wildfire.
(For reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with reality and
logic, there are also people around here who call it "earthquake weather".)
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 04:09:46 -0500, John Johnson
I remember it 35 years ago.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
In pagan Rome, the pontifex maximus was the chief priest of the state
cult. After Christianity became the official religion, the bishop of
Rome assumed the title, eventually shortened in popular usage to
pontiff. See http://www.livius.org/pn-po/pontifex/maximus.html for
more details.
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com, eldr...@earthlink.net
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Irina Rempt wrote:
>>
>> On Friday 25 October 2002 23:56 Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:00:11 +0100, green...@cix.co.uk (Catja
>> > Pafort) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
>> >
>> > Just like in Croatian.
>>
>> And Dutch, unless it happens at the end of September; then it's
>> "Sint-Michielszomertje" ("St. Michael's little summer").
ah, haven't seen Irina's post the first time. Interestingly, in
Croatian the official name is St. Michael's summer.
>In my dialect, that period of the autumn when you get a period of
>sudden intense warming before true winter weather sets in is
>called something like "wildfire weather". The rains haven't
>started yet so everything's still gold and brown from the summer,
>and then the hot dry winds sweep through for long days at a time
>and any excuse turns into a wildfire.
>
>(For reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with reality and
>logic, there are also people around here who call it "earthquake weather".)
Hm. Was Michael the one with the flaming sword? Could that explain
everything?
Boudewijn Rempt
>
> Hm. Was Michael the one with the flaming sword? Could that explain
> everything?
>
No, that was Aziraphale, but he, ahem, lost the thingy. After all,
she was expecting _already_.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Dorothy J Heydt
Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>
>>In my dialect, that period of the autumn when you get a period of
>>sudden intense warming before true winter weather sets in is
>>called something like "wildfire weather". The rains haven't
>>started yet so everything's still gold and brown from the summer,
>>and then the hot dry winds sweep through for long days at a time
>>and any excuse turns into a wildfire.
>>
>>(For reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with reality and
>>logic, there are also people around here who call it "earthquake weather".)
>
>Hm. Was Michael the one with the flaming sword? Could that explain
>everything?
His feast day is IIRC the 25th of September. Around then,
anyway.
Greyrover
>There is a knife blade design specifically known as a 'Arkansas
>Toothpick'.
>
That's the one I know of as a Bowie Knife.
Stan
Irina Rempt
> In article <6jdoru4ta91am2usv...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>>Hm. Was Michael the one with the flaming sword? Could that explain
>>everything?
>
> His feast day is IIRC the 25th of September. Around then,
> anyway.
29th; I used to celebrate it before I became Orthodox. These days, I
celebrate the 6th of September instead.
Steve Taylor
>> Only in the _Illuminatus_ novels, as I recall.
> ?
>
> (Never read 'em so I don't know the reference.)
On reflection, the bit in Illuminatus was getting *other* people -
strangers - to run around their cars, by telling them to in a firm
no-nonsense manner, and relying on peoples tendency to respect authority
- and it was referred to as a *Bavarian* fire drill.
I havent read them for twenty years though, so my recollection could be
off.
> John Johnson
Steve
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <1799057.a...@calcifer.valdyas.org>, Irina
Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> On Friday 25 October 2002 23:56 Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:00:11 +0100, green...@cix.co.uk (Catja
> > Pafort) wrote:
> >
> >>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
> >
> > Just like in Croatian.
>
> And Dutch, unless it happens at the end of September; then it's
> "Sint-Michielszomertje" ("St. Michael's little summer").
It's Saint Martin's summer in Italian (Estate di San Martino).
Because of the legend where St Martin (a Roman officer) cut his
cloak and gave half of it to a beggar during a very cold time,
then gave the other half to another beggar, so he was freezing
himself; so God made the weather warmer for him.
(Sounds like a rather petty god, if you ask me. Couldn't he make
the weather warm for the beggars to start with, and save all the
trouble? But probably it wouldn't have made such a good
educational story.) ;-)
Ciao,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi writing from Dublin, Ireland
"You look like Billie Holiday with a hibiscus flower
on her ear, except it's a purple orangutan." --Laurence
Julian Flood
A chapel which ends the processional way in a cathedral. Found it twice in
one day after mumble decades of not knowing that, one in a plan of Durham
cathedral, the other in Hal o' the Draft.
JF
Magnus Olsson
> :
> In article <1799057.a...@calcifer.valdyas.org>, Irina
> Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
> > On Friday 25 October 2002 23:56 Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:00:11 +0100, green...@cix.co.uk (Catja
> > > Pafort) wrote:
> > >
> > >>Indian summer in German is 'Altweibersommer' - old woman's summer.
> > >
> > > Just like in Croatian.
> >
> > And Dutch, unless it happens at the end of September; then it's
> > "Sint-Michielszomertje" ("St. Michael's little summer").
>
> It's Saint Martin's summer in Italian (Estate di San Martino).
In Sweden, it's "Brittsommar", "Bridget's Summer", after St.
Bridget/Brigid/Birgitta (the Swedish saint, not the Irish one after
which she was named). But it's not because of any connection with
her legend; it's just that St. Bridget's day is in early October.
Magnus Olsson
m...@df.lth.se
Zeborah
> It's Saint Martin's summer in Italian (Estate di San Martino).
> Because of the legend where St Martin (a Roman officer) cut his
> cloak and gave half of it to a beggar during a very cold time,
> then gave the other half to another beggar, so he was freezing
> himself; so God made the weather warmer for him.
Don't think I heard that one before; I like it. My home suburb is
called St Martins, possibly after one of the churches within it that are
called St Martins Anglican/Presbyterian/Catholic Church. Or maybe it
was just called that and the churches all took the name from it.
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
Writing Month cumulative wordcount: 3739 words
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <55581856.02110...@posting.google.com>,
m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
Well, St Martin's Day is also around the same time (don't have my
calendar-with-saints handy, sorry). So I suspect there was some
contamination between the saint's day (usually the traditional
date of the saint's death), the legend, and what seems to be a
general European tendency to define a "XXX's summer" around that
time of the year.
Further trivia: Both in UK/Irl and in Italy (or just the North?),
Martinmas is the traditional date for moving house, because it
was the traditional date for renewal (or cancellation) of rental
contracts on land.
As for St Brid (Bridget etc.), meaning the Irish one, her saint's
day is February 1st, quite suspiciously close to Candlemas for a
saint who is rumoured to have been a goddess of light... ;-)
Actually, "rumoured" isn't right. I think it's pretty well
established that this is actually the origin of St Bridget --
Irish goddess of light and childbirth. Some pagan friends of mine
have a "Brid flame" which they renew every year, don't remember
on which date -- the way they renew it is by going to a famous
monastery of St Bridget where the nuns keep a perpetual flame,
and getting the flame from them. The nuns are quite aware that
they (and a lot of other visitors) are pagans, but seem to have
no problem with that, or with the fact that their patron saint
used to be a pagan goddess. I _like_ those nuns!
Joann Zimmerman
mazz...@hotmail.com says...
> > In Sweden, it's "Brittsommar", "Bridget's Summer", after St.
> > Bridget/Brigid/Birgitta (the Swedish saint, not the Irish one after
> > which she was named). But it's not because of any connection with
> > her legend; it's just that St. Bridget's day is in early October.
>
> Well, St Martin's Day is also around the same time (don't have my
> calendar-with-saints handy, sorry). So I suspect there was some
> contamination between the saint's day (usually the traditional
> date of the saint's death), the legend, and what seems to be a
> general European tendency to define a "XXX's summer" around that
> time of the year.
November 11. Remember all the man-on-a-horse cookies in the bakery
windows?
Looks like the saint in question is climate-dependent; St-Whoever's
Summer comes a month earlier way up north.
--
"I never understood people that don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
>Well, St Martin's Day is also around the same time
November 11. The day when the wine is "christened", occasioning much
tasting of new wine and, fortunately, heavy patrols by traffic police
during the last several years.
LAFF
<mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
St. Bridget of Sweden's feast day is July 23, moved from October 8,
according to http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb07.htm
If her day is associated with what we in the U.S. sometimes call --
WARNING: politically incorrect term! -- "Indian summer", it's probably
the October day that you have in mind.
St. Martin's day, known as Martinmas in some English-speaking countries,
is November 11, and "Martinmas summer" is a traditional English term for
such late warm spells.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Martin-S.html
In fact we're going to have one here, and just at the right time, too:
http://www.wtov9.com/weather/5dayforecast.asp
(This is the website for the TV station that's so close I can get it
without an antenna!)
--
-- _
( | Lois Fundis
(*| lfu...@weir.net
( | Latitude: 40.398637 (W)
/ | Longitude: -80.599882 (N)
( |
/ |_______
/
". . . it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or
no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg ."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Magnus Olsson
> 'tis said that on Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:43:03 GMT, Anna Mazzoldi
> <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > :
> > In article <55581856.02110...@posting.google.com>,
> > m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
> > > In Sweden, it's "Brittsommar", "Bridget's Summer", after St.
> > > Bridget/Brigid/Birgitta (the Swedish saint, not the Irish one after
> > > which she was named). But it's not because of any connection with
> > > her legend; it's just that St. Bridget's day is in early October.
>
> St. Bridget of Sweden's feast day is July 23, moved from October 8,
> according to http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb07.htm
Interesting. In Swedish calendars, October 8 is still named "Birgitta".
The habit of naming day originated with the Catholic feast days, but
the official, secular calendar obviously doesn't keep the association
up-to-date (and many of the original names have been replaced anyway).
> If her day is associated with what we in the U.S. sometimes call --
> WARNING: politically incorrect term! -- "Indian summer", it's probably
> the October day that you have in mind.
It is, though in Sweden "indiansommar" is usually meant to mean warm
days in *late* October.
On a pedantic note, according to at least one etymology, the term
"Indian summer" does not refer to Native Americans, but to India,
which would indicate that the term is quite politically correct after
all. :-)
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se)
Dorothy J Heydt
Magnus Olsson <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>On a pedantic note, according to at least one etymology, the term
>"Indian summer" does not refer to Native Americans, but to India,
>which would indicate that the term is quite politically correct after
>all. :-)
Yes, but compare "Indian corn," which is maize not wheat, and
"Indian giver," meaning someone who gives you something and then
takes it back, and assorted other usages I mentioned upthread
where "name of other ethnicity" + "name of thing" means "not the
real thing."
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>LAFF <lfu...@weir.net> wrote in message news:<hjtjsuc3h938mv3k5...@4ax.com>...
>> 'tis said that on Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:43:03 GMT, Anna Mazzoldi
>> <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > In article <55581856.02110...@posting.google.com>,
>> > m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>> > > In Sweden, it's "Brittsommar", "Bridget's Summer", after St.
>> > > Bridget/Brigid/Birgitta (the Swedish saint, not the Irish one after
>> > > which she was named). But it's not because of any connection with
>> > > her legend; it's just that St. Bridget's day is in early October.
>> St. Bridget of Sweden's feast day is July 23, moved from October 8,
>> according to http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb07.htm
>Interesting. In Swedish calendars, October 8 is still named "Birgitta".
>The habit of naming day originated with the Catholic feast days, but
>the official, secular calendar obviously doesn't keep the association
>up-to-date (and many of the original names have been replaced anyway).
>> If her day is associated with what we in the U.S. sometimes call --
>> WARNING: politically incorrect term! -- "Indian summer", it's probably
>> the October day that you have in mind.
>It is, though in Sweden "indiansommar" is usually meant to mean warm
>days in *late* October.
Here it can be any time in late fall or early winter. I
associate it more with November, myself.
>On a pedantic note, according to at least one etymology, the term
>"Indian summer" does not refer to Native Americans, but to India,
>which would indicate that the term is quite politically correct after
>all. :-)
That seems a very unlikely etymology. The early (late 18th c.)
citations have North American contexts.
Brian
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
>St. Martin's day, known as Martinmas in some English-speaking countries,
>is November 11, and "Martinmas summer" is a traditional English term for
>such late warm spells.
Apropos Martinmas "warm spell", we had the first snow of the year the
day before yesterday. Note that I don't say "snowfall". It was a
couple of snowflake flurries, but they were real enough.
"It will be the hard winter. The Indians gather wood."
Jo Walton
> In article <b3793a49.02110...@posting.google.com>,
> Magnus Olsson <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>On a pedantic note, according to at least one etymology, the term
>>"Indian summer" does not refer to Native Americans, but to India,
>>which would indicate that the term is quite politically correct after
>>all. :-)
>
> Yes, but compare "Indian corn," which is maize not wheat, and
> "Indian giver," meaning someone who gives you something and then
> takes it back, and assorted other usages I mentioned upthread
> where "name of other ethnicity" + "name of thing" means "not the
> real thing."
Where I come from, "English" is used in this way. English gravy is gravy
without flour, English scrambled eggs are thinned with milk, English
butter is margarine -- and interestingly, one that wasn't around when I
was a kid but which I heard when I was back living in Swansea, English
coffee is instant as opposed to brewed coffee.
It took me some considerable time living in England and encountering
gravy with flour, proper scrambled eggs, and butter, to realize that
these were disparaging terms, not descriptive ones.
ObWriting: This is another way of doing incluing.
--
Jo I kissed a kif at Kefk blu...@vif.com
THE KING'S PEACE and THE KING'S NAME now available in paperback
THE PRIZE IN THE GAME hardcover hitting stores any moment now
out-of-date website: http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Dorothy J Heydt
Jo Walton <blu...@vif.com> wrote:
>In article <H57yD...@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> Yes, but compare "Indian corn," which is maize not wheat, and
>> "Indian giver," meaning someone who gives you something and then
>> takes it back, and assorted other usages I mentioned upthread
>> where "name of other ethnicity" + "name of thing" means "not the
>> real thing."
>
>Where I come from, "English" is used in this way. English gravy is gravy
>without flour, English scrambled eggs are thinned with milk, English
>butter is margarine -- and interestingly, one that wasn't around when I
>was a kid but which I heard when I was back living in Swansea, English
>coffee is instant as opposed to brewed coffee.
>
>It took me some considerable time living in England and encountering
>gravy with flour, proper scrambled eggs, and butter, to realize that
>these were disparaging terms, not descriptive ones.
Fascinating. Turn about is fair play, sauce for the goose is
sauce for the gander, etc.
Brendan Hogg
> > [...] assorted other usages I mentioned upthread
> > where "name of other ethnicity" + "name of thing" means "not the
> > real thing."
>
> Where I come from, "English" is used in this way. English gravy is gravy
> without flour, English scrambled eggs are thinned with milk, English
> butter is margarine -- and interestingly, one that wasn't around when I
> was a kid but which I heard when I was back living in Swansea, English
> coffee is instant as opposed to brewed coffee.
>
> It took me some considerable time living in England and encountering
> gravy with flour, proper scrambled eggs, and butter, to realize that
> these were disparaging terms, not descriptive ones.
Hmm, interesting. I think in some cases it is both descriptive and
disparaging, if you see what I mean ("This is how the do it in England,
which of course isn't the right way.") Certainly, I consider
gravy-without-flour and scrambled-eggs-with-milk the defaults.
Particularly the scrambled eggs; on occasion, when short of milk, I've
made them without and found them unpleasantly sulphurous. Do you put
pepper on them?
Oh dear, I'm turning this into a food thread, aren't I?
Cheers,
Brendan