Language issue: words with obvious historical roots
Peter Knutsen
I've long wondered about how to deal with this issue, of words
with obvious Earth-language roots, used in worlds that are
unconnected to ours (mostly fantasy settings, but Star Wars
is another example, even though it's science fantasy). And
related issues.
Example one: When re-reading LOTR last year, I raised an eye-
brow when I saw that the Professor used the word "damasked"
to describe the daggers gotten from the barrow wight. I'm
willing to bet Tolkien was aware of the origin of the term,
yet he used it.
For one, it kinda offends my linguistic sensibilities. Secondly,
I'd sort of like what the Professor thought about the issue
himself. He must have been aware of it. I don't have Letters
(I visited the biggest shop of English books in Copenhagen
a few hours ago, they had a billion books by or about Tolkien
and/or LOTR, but the only book they did not have was Letters),
but any of those who do, do you recall any references to the
subject? (I'll re-ask this particular subtopic later on, in
the dedicated Tolkien groups). I'd very much like to hear
what he thought about such words, and their use in fantasy
fiction.
Second example: my AErth setting is alternate history medieval,
with magic working (this is the source of the alternacy,
basically - with magic existing history could not have
turned out the way it did in our timeline) and with me not
being shy of anachronisms worth a century or two (but no
more than that). One anachronistic thing is that there's a
lot of political murders going on in 997 AD. You can even
graph them and notice a trend, a disturbing trend. More and
more highly placed people are getting killed each decade.
Yet how do I talk about this? The Ismaelite sect does exist
(as it did in our tieline in 997 AD) and it is very active
(which it was not in our timeline in 997 AD), and I could
get away just fine with calling what they do assassinations.
But what do I call the political murders committed by non-
Ismaelites? Like when some highly specialized craftsman tries
to murder the Pope, or Sven Forkbeard, for political reasons.
Third example. I'm messing about with a humorous somewhat
YA (meaing there's almost no refernces to sex in it, much
as it pains me and disturbs my sense of psychological
realism) bronze age setting, again with magic working (it
may be the prequel to the AErth setting, not sure yet).
Actually it's very early bronze age, or very late stone
age, depending on how you look at it, because bronze is a
very new invention, it's a kind of "copper that has gotten
mixed up with some other metal, so that it can be melted
and made into tools as hard as stone."
Copper? This may be slightly more obsure than the previous
two cases, but Copper is actually derived from Cyprus,
tbe Mediterranean island.
So I'm not comfortable. I'm probably more language-conscious
than most writers, but still, can any of you empathize?
Better yet, can any of you advise solutions or workarounds
that are not clumsy?
It's not a common issue, as those three cases are the only
ones I've been able to think of, but... How do you others
deal with it? Especially published professionals, although
I'll appreciate input from anyone who's thoughtful and
linguistically aware.
--
Peter Knutsen
Boudewijn Rempt
>
> Second example: my AErth setting is alternate history medieval,
> with magic working (this is the source of the alternacy,
> basically - with magic existing history could not have
> turned out the way it did in our timeline) and with me not
> being shy of anachronisms worth a century or two (but no
> more than that). One anachronistic thing is that there's a
> lot of political murders going on in 997 AD. You can even
> graph them and notice a trend, a disturbing trend. More and
> more highly placed people are getting killed each decade.
> Yet how do I talk about this? The Ismaelite sect does exist
> (as it did in our tieline in 997 AD) and it is very active
> (which it was not in our timeline in 997 AD), and I could
> get away just fine with calling what they do assassinations.
> But what do I call the political murders committed by non-
> Ismaelites? Like when some highly specialized craftsman tries
> to murder the Pope, or Sven Forkbeard, for political reasons.
>
If your world is called _AErth_, I shouldn't worry about using words with an
Earth etymology at all. Every word you use has an etymology that's
intricately connected with the history of the language in our world, from
the humblest polite second person singular to the most obvious neologism.
You can't avoid it, and when the name of the world is so obviously
derivative, you needn't.
<...>
>
> Copper? This may be slightly more obsure than the previous
> two cases, but Copper is actually derived from Cyprus,
> tbe Mediterranean island.
>
You can have your copper come from an island in your world with a different
name -- Cifras, for instance, and use ciffer as the word. But that would
alienate a lot of readers because it would make the story hard to follow.
And you wouldn't gain brownie points with linguists either: if you write in
English you can use the common English word for all common nouns, otherwise
you'd have to write the work in a language of the world. Hmmmm....
Yob Broi ga. Tan Andal zivo oyod zizi. Tan zidoxaz bash adandan
klonrarat y kulininswaran nahanini. Oyodar ka adan zitaret adan
zikedot, adandan taretjumoi.
No, that won't work. It's a lot of fun, but nobody would read it.
> It's not a common issue, as those three cases are the only
> ones I've been able to think of, but... How do you others
> deal with it? Especially published professionals, although
> I'll appreciate input from anyone who's thoughtful and
> linguistically aware.
Seeing what is published, I guess that most publishers prefer that everyone
is named Tom, Mark or John, no matter how exotic the world, with a small
niche for Frenchisms, for instance Mathieu Delacroix. Chris is a good name,
too, for an alternate world that doesn't share any of our history.
What I have done in my WIR is to use plain English, with some untranslated
Denden word for cultural items to set the scene. I've also used the correct
names -- Mansu not translated to Plum, for instance. That should be enough.
People who want more language can read the grammar & lexicon.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Dorothy J Heydt
Peter Knutsen <pe...@knutsen.dk> wrote:
>
>Example one: When re-reading LOTR last year, I raised an eye-
>brow when I saw that the Professor used the word "damasked"
>to describe the daggers gotten from the barrow wight. I'm
>willing to bet Tolkien was aware of the origin of the term,
>yet he used it.
He probably knew what the original OE was for that kind
of pattern (you did it by pattern-welding twisted bars
together), and knew that the word wasn't in the language
any more, having been replaced, and no one would
understand it.
If you try to take all the words of non-Germanic origin
out of English, you end up with something that sounds
very strange. Cf. Anderson's "Uncleavish Truethinking."
>....
>Copper? This may be slightly more obsure than the previous
>two cases, but Copper is actually derived from Cyprus,
>tbe Mediterranean island.
But what else are you going to call it?
>
>So I'm not comfortable. I'm probably more language-conscious
>than most writers, but still, can any of you empathize?
>Better yet, can any of you advise solutions or workarounds
>that are not clumsy?
>It's not a common issue, as those three cases are the only
>ones I've been able to think of, but... How do you others
>deal with it? Especially published professionals, although
>I'll appreciate input from anyone who's thoughtful and
>linguistically aware.
You might take a look at some of Poul Anderson's works.
(Not necessarily "Uncleavish Truethinking.") He would
occasionally have a character use a Germanic word where
a Latinate word would have been more typical English,
and get some very nice effects.
E.g., "But it was not to be awaited that a city man
would make the journey up into the plains by himself,"
where any native speaker of English would have said "not
to be expected."
There is this basic fact about English that a whole lot
of our vocabulary is borrowed from somewhere else,
sometimes displacing the original OE word, sometimes
not.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Irina Rempt
> I've long wondered about how to deal with this issue, of words
> with obvious Earth-language roots, used in worlds that are
> unconnected to ours (mostly fantasy settings, but Star Wars
> is another example, even though it's science fantasy). And
> related issues.
Erm, doesn't every word you write have Earth-language roots, seeing that
you're writing in an Earth language? I'd worry more about the cultural
connotations than about the roots (that's why I asked about
"refectory", to be sure that it didn't only apply to Catholic
institutions).
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beginnen can ick, volherden wil ick, volbringhen sal ick.
oneironaut....@gmx.net
> Copper? This may be slightly more obsure than the previous
> two cases, but Copper is actually derived from Cyprus,
> tbe Mediterranean island.
And then Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> got to one of my points first:
> On Friday 28 June 2002 21:40 Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
> > I've long wondered about how to deal with this issue, of words
> > with obvious Earth-language roots, used in worlds that are
> > unconnected to ours (mostly fantasy settings, but Star Wars
> > is another example, even though it's science fantasy). And
> > related issues.
>
> Erm, doesn't every word you write have Earth-language roots, seeing that
> you're writing in an Earth language? I'd worry more about the cultural
> connotations than about the roots (that's why I asked about
> "refectory", to be sure that it didn't only apply to Catholic
> institutions).
Also, you'll have to explain a lot more than 'copper' if the characters
are actually speaking English[1] -- in which case the word 'copper' and
its roots are relevant -- rather than a language more appropriate to the
late stone/early bronze age -- in which case the word 'copper' and its
roots don't /exist/ yet.
--Squid
[1] Or another language in which the word for 'copper' is 'copper' or a
cognate thereof. You know what I mean.
Silvered Glass
<pe...@knutsen.dk> wrote:
>
>I've long wondered about how to deal with this issue, of words
>with obvious Earth-language roots, used in worlds that are
>unconnected to ours (mostly fantasy settings, but Star Wars
>is another example, even though it's science fantasy). And
>related issues.
<snip>
>Second example: my AErth setting is alternate history medieval,
>with magic working (this is the source of the alternacy,
>basically - with magic existing history could not have
>turned out the way it did in our timeline) and with me not
>being shy of anachronisms worth a century or two (but no
>more than that). One anachronistic thing is that there's a
>lot of political murders going on in 997 AD. You can even
>graph them and notice a trend, a disturbing trend. More and
>more highly placed people are getting killed each decade.
>Yet how do I talk about this? The Ismaelite sect does exist
>(as it did in our tieline in 997 AD) and it is very active
>(which it was not in our timeline in 997 AD), and I could
>get away just fine with calling what they do assassinations.
>But what do I call the political murders committed by non-
>Ismaelites? Like when some highly specialized craftsman tries
>to murder the Pope, or Sven Forkbeard, for political reasons.
Which is the most important convention outraged by the
killings? Are there conventions demanding that a foe be
challenged openly, and are these killings by stealth? Is
hospitality considered sacred, and are some of the killings
violations of the proper relationship between host and
guest? Do any of them represent violations of a bond of
loyalty between lord and man? Were any of them committed in
a place or time of sanctuary, and is the right of sanctuary
sacred? Did any of them break the bonds of kinship?
If I'm attempting to portray a different time and place in a
fashion that captures its atmosphere, and the people don't
have a word that means 'political murder of an important
personage by stealth', then I might not want to use
'assassination' because I might be distorting the view of
the culture if I did. I would likely couple to the murder a
mention of whatever other principle has been broken: I might
refer to it as villainy if it violated a chivalric code in
one who might have been expected to adhere to the code; if I
man murders his lord, it is treason.
The origin of the word 'assassination' would not stop me
from using it if I *did* want to add that concept to a
culture, unless I was also writing about the Assassins and
for some reason wanted to distance the Assassins' killings
from other political murders.
<snip>
>Copper? This may be slightly more obsure than the previous
>two cases, but Copper is actually derived from Cyprus,
>tbe Mediterranean island.
This is only a problem if 1) you're convinced your readers
are going to think about Cyprus when hearing the word
'copper', and 2) you don't want them to think about Cyprus.
I very much doubt that many people think about Cyprus when
they read the word 'copper.'
>So I'm not comfortable. I'm probably more language-conscious
>than most writers, but still, can any of you empathize?
>Better yet, can any of you advise solutions or workarounds
>that are not clumsy?
>
>It's not a common issue, as those three cases are the only
>ones I've been able to think of, but... How do you others
>deal with it?
<snip>
For one thing, I flatly refuse to admit any general
principle that the *etymology* of a word ought to prevent me
from using it. It is impossible to hold that principle
consistently: in that case, I ought to be writing _A Winter
Out of Time_ in Debroan.
The Debroans never heard of Cyprus. If I can't use the word
'copper' from the red metal, then equally I can't have
Shazemar address Khameris as 'lord': 'lord' derives from
'loaf-ward', and the Debroans don't bake bread. For that
matter, why am I using words like 'and' and 'stay' when the
Debroans had no contact with any Germanic tribe, and
'ballista' and 'adversary' when they have no Latin?
The only time I worry about the provenance of a word is when
the word has strong associations attached to it, such that
if I use it, I also conjure up a lot of other images. There
*are* commonly understood words that mean 'conical tent' in
English, but I cannot call such a tent a 'tepee' unless the
context makes the Amerindian associations acceptable; if I
need a word that specifically means 'mantle worn over one
shoulder,' I have one, but then I'd better be able to handle
the Roman associations that 'toga' drags in. This sort of
thing has been a frequent problem for me in writing my work
in progress: often the only existing word for something has
strong cultural associations in its current meaning.
Dan Goodman
> If you try to take all the words of non-Germanic origin
> out of English, you end up with something that sounds
> very strange. Cf. Anderson's "Uncleavish Truethinking."
And if you take all the words of non-Romance origin out of French, you also
get strange results.
To complicate matters, there are words which are taken into one language
and then passed back to the first language. Examples: "riding coat"
becomes French "redingote," and then comes back into English as a woman's
garment. The first part of the French work "biftek" is English "beef" from
French "boeuf".
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <1701679.z...@calcifer.valdyas.org>, Irina
Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> On Friday 28 June 2002 21:40 Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
> > I've long wondered about how to deal with this issue, of words
> > with obvious Earth-language roots, used in worlds that are
> > unconnected to ours (mostly fantasy settings, but Star Wars
> > is another example, even though it's science fantasy). And
> > related issues.
>
> Erm, doesn't every word you write have Earth-language roots, seeing that
> you're writing in an Earth language? I'd worry more about the cultural
> connotations than about the roots (that's why I asked about
> "refectory", to be sure that it didn't only apply to Catholic
> institutions).
Yes, but. I've been wrestling with a similar problem, so I'll
chip in.
The words Peter is worried about, mostly, do not simply have
Earth-language roots, but are based on an Earth *location*. And I
agree with him that it makes them slightly more disturbing than
otherwise.
That said, of his specific words, the only one that actually
stands out to me is Tolkiens "damasked". "Copper" doesn't look
like a problem, because I'm sure very few people even *know* the
etymology, and as someone else said, I'm sure even fewer actually
think of Cyprus when they hear "copper".
"Assassinate" is slightly more problematic, in that more people
will be aware of the etymology -- but even so, there could be a
similar story/legend in his world, especially if he does have a
comparable sect. Though personally I think that it could be
replaced by "murder" pretty much everywhere, maybe expanded to
"political murder" or "court murder" in a few occasions when
necessary.
What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
Italian. And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
Ciao,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi writing from Dublin, Ireland
"You look like Billie Holiday with a hibiscus flower
on her ear, except it's a purple orangutan." --Laurence
Tim S
Even if there wasn't a similar basis for the etymology, I wouldn't have a
problem with "assassinate". As far as I'm concerned, it just means "commit
political murder". I know what the etymology is, but if I thought that
meaning should be regulated by etymology, I wouldn't be able to use the word
at all, even in real life. I would only have a problem with the use of
"assassinate" in a fantasy work if the culture wouldn't (for whatever
reason) have singled out anything like this phenomenon to represent as a
unitary concept, so that "assassinate" couldn't possibly be the translation
of any native word.
"Damask", being rarer, might give me a moment's pause, but I'd still readily
accept it as the translation of some native word, if that seemed plausible
in context.
What to do in this situation really depends on how many readers are really
thrown by etymology. My gut feeling is "not many", but maybe I'm wrong. I
really doubt that most readers are aware of the etymology of these words.
Again, maybe I'm wrong.
>
> What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
> published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
> transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
> point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
> a public space where a few of the scenes are set.
Yes, these sound foreign in English without the need for any historical
knowledge, so it's more of a problem. For me, anyway.
> Back when I was
> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
> Italian. And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
> with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
"White Moon Place"? I'd expect it to be rectangular or square by default,
but if the context indicated it was round, that wouldn't bother me.
I'd accept "White Moon Circus" if traffic went through it, but then I'm a
Londoner...
I'd also accept "White Moon Crossing" if two roads crossed there (or four
roads ended there).
I wouldn't be thrown by "White Moon Circle", although there I'd expect a
circular road going around a central area separated by a railing or
something, rather than a completely open area.
Actually, if the culture normally has square squares, I'd accept "White Moon
Square" if people occasionally joked about their home town's round square.
I suppose there's "White Moon Plaza", which seems less glaringly un-English
than "piazza".
And I guess there's "White Moon Walk", which I'd normally expect to be a
long, broad road, but which could be a round area without unduly astonishing
me, if people habitually strolled there.
Tim
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
> with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
"Circle"? I'm sure there are places in Londond called like that.
(I could go and pick up my AZ but lord knows where it's ended up. I
always have to buy a new one every time I go back. They're probably
having a little mappy orgy somewhere on my shelves and spawning little
underground folding maps.)
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:
>
>What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
>published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
>transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
>point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
>a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
>writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>Italian.
You could use the cognate "place", even though it's
probably borrowed from French.
And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>has to be, can't be changed).
There are a goodly number of "squares" in
English-speaking places that are some other shape than
square.
I've ended up removing the name
>completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
"esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
others presently; stay tuned.
(I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
paving, white buildings of three or four stories
surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
think of something, I betcha.)
Dan Goodman
news:9cathugnnij5o6bfi...@4ax.com:
> What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
> published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
> transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
> point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
> a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
> Italian.
Not to mine. I might guess it was from a Romance language, but not which
one.
> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
> with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
White Moon Plaza.
English word order, English word (taken from Spanish, I think). "Plaza" is
fairly common in American English.
Joann Zimmerman
> Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
> "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
> others presently; stay tuned.
>
> (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
> paving, white buildings of three or four stories
> surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
> think of something, I betcha.)
The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
"campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
I like White Moon Locus, myself ...
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Jo Walton
>
>What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
>published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
>transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
>point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
>a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
>writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>Italian. And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
I'd try either "Place" or "Plaza". "Piazza" sounds Italian, but "Plaza"
just sounds assimilated to my ear -- you could say "There's a plaza
outside" quite naturally. "Place" is weird. While I can think of a
zillion streets and squares called "<Something> Place" in Britain, "The
Place of the White Moon" sounds pretentious -- "White Moon Place" would
be much less visible as somewhere someone might actually live, or turn
left or whatever, in a real place.
--
Jo I kissed a kif at Kefk blu...@vif.com
*THE KING'S NAME* out now, *THE KING'S PEACE* paperback out in August,
*THE PRIZE IN THE GAME* due out in November, all from Tor.
Poetry, map, etc. at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk (new web page soon)
Catja Pafort
> "Assassinate" is slightly more problematic, in that more people
> will be aware of the etymology -- but even so, there could be a
> similar story/legend in his world, especially if he does have a
> comparable sect. Though personally I think that it could be
> replaced by "murder" pretty much everywhere, maybe expanded to
> "political murder" or "court murder" in a few occasions when
> necessary.
For me - like, I suppose for many people - assasinate has undertones of
sneakiness, 'hired assasins' - many RPGs use that word without people
stumbling over it, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
> What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
> published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
> transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
> point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
> a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
> Italian.
Agreed. White Moon Plaza would work, though.
> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> has to be, can't be changed).
To me, 'square' implies large open space - if it's round, you need to
tell me, but it wouldn't throw me. The term 'market square' applies to
all kinds of areas.
> I've ended up removing the name
> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> not entirely happy with it.
No - *that* doesn't work. White Moon Market; maybe. Neither 'circus' nor
'forum' would work for me; and I presume it's too big to be a green or
common.
Catja
Marilee J. Layman
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>> has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>> not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>> with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
>
>"Circle"? I'm sure there are places in Londond called like that.
We have plenty of circles in DC, named on the main road, like Dupont
Circle.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Brenda W. Clough
>On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:14:53 +0200, ada...@despammed.com (Anna
>Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>>Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>>>has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>>>completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>>>once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>>>not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>>>with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
>>>
>>"Circle"? I'm sure there are places in Londond called like that.
>>
>
>We have plenty of circles in DC, named on the main road, like Dupont
>Circle.
>
In England they tend to be called 'circus'. Like Piccadilly Circus.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:27:36 GMT, Anna Mazzoldi
<mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What *I* find more disturbing, both in my own WIP and in
>published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
>transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
>point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
>a public space where a few of the scenes are set. Back when I was
>writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>Italian. And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
"Plaza" would be the closest equivalent. It was originally Spanish,
but my dictionary shows it as having been borrowed by English circa
1675. By this time, most English-speakers probably wouldn't even
recognize "plaza" as a loan-word. If the space is relatively small,
and surrounded on all sides by buildings, you could also use
"courtyard". Some people would probably limit the latter usage to a
space contained within a single building, rather than a group of
buildings. American English still uses "court" as part of a street
name to indicate a dead-end street with the end surrounded by
buildings (i.e., Woodmont Court), but the usage "Court of ..." is
usually restricted to speaking of a law court, not a street.
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace."
Woodrow Wilson
Geoff Wedig
> What to do in this situation really depends on how many readers are really
> thrown by etymology. My gut feeling is "not many", but maybe I'm wrong. I
> really doubt that most readers are aware of the etymology of these words.
> Again, maybe I'm wrong.
The problem is, it all depends. A reader who's not thrown by 'assassinate'
might be by 'feta', or 'samurai'. I ran into a problem with 'origami' in
the WIS, which is clearly based on Asian settings, but the word still
connoted too strongly. My feeling is that assassinate is safe, because it's
so far departed from it's original place and time, whereas some of the above
might not be. It's much the same problem with anachronisms and reverse
anachronisms (where something is ok for the period, but no one would believe
it anyway). Always a tricky issue.
>> Anna wrote:
>> Back when I was
>> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>> Italian. And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
>> has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>> completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>> once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>> not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>> with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but perhaps there's
a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I don't know, I don't know
Italian.
Michael R N Dolbear
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@despammed.com> wrote in article
<1feloyf.1qs3yzt1g2j4kaN%ada...@despammed.com>...
> Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> > has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
> > completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> > once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> > not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
> > with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
>
> "Circle"? I'm sure there are places in Londond called like that.
Piccadilly Circus for example.
But to quote a Real Author :-
{arrival at Cardegoss} The royal company rode through the misnamed
Temple Square, which had five sides, one for each of the big regional
mother-houses of the gods’ holy orders. ==
[Lois Bujold, Curse of Chalion, ch 7]
I remember a reader who isn't a native English speaker didn't catch the
'misnamed', having mentally translated square to a Place or
Piazza-equivalent in his birth-tongue and so stripped off the
'four-sided' bit.
--
Mike D
Heather Jones
>
> Anna wrote:
>
> > "Assassinate" is slightly more problematic, in that more people
> > will be aware of the etymology -- but even so, there could be a
> > similar story/legend in his world, especially if he does have a
> > comparable sect. Though personally I think that it could be
> > replaced by "murder" pretty much everywhere, maybe expanded to
> > "political murder" or "court murder" in a few occasions when
> > necessary.
>
> For me - like, I suppose for many people - assasinate has undertones of
> sneakiness, 'hired assasins' - many RPGs use that word without people
> stumbling over it, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Heck, if I were worrying about the appropriateness of
"assassinate" in a story, I think I'd worry more about whether
the culture had the underlying concepts of what the word means
now, than about whether it had resonances of the etymological
origins. "Assassinate" is one of my favorite example-words when
I'm teaching the concept of general versus specific semantic
frames. (The lesson goes something like, "Here's a list of
synonyms for "kill" -- what are the constraints on the
circumstances in which each word is a good description." Nothing
like a little violence to get the undergrads stirred up.)
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Patricia J. Hawkins
>>>>> "AM" == Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> writes:
AM> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
AM> has to be, can't be changed).
Gracious, don't let that stop you. I can't think of a single "square"
around here that _is_ square. I live in Waverly Square, which is
triangular; Cushing Square is 5-sided, Harvard Square is, um, I don't
think there *is* geometric description, Brattle Square is more of a
conglomeraton of arcs...
--
Patricia J. Hawkins
Brian M. Scott
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
[...]
>"Plaza" would be the closest equivalent. It was originally Spanish,
>but my dictionary shows it as having been borrowed by English circa
>1675. By this time, most English-speakers probably wouldn't even
>recognize "plaza" as a loan-word.
Perhaps not, but a good many Americans would have a mental picture of
a shopping plaza. For that reason alone 'place' might be preferable.
[...]
Brian
Brooks Moses
*boggle*
How odd. For me, that mental connotation has a hard time coming to
mind, even with encouragement....
For "mall", on the other hand, I could see the problem.
- Brooks
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
I wonder how many first-time visitors to Washington, DC are surprised
when they discover that the Mall is the large, rectangular park that
the US Capitol, the White House, and most of the museums face onto,
rather than a shopping mall?
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Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
With the encouragement I can get it, but I was a kid within a couple
klicks of the shopping assemblage referred to as "Prince George's
Plaza". It's not a generic in my head, but I can see as how someone
might get it there eventually through some utterly different cultural
background than mine.
> For "mall", on the other hand, I could see the problem.
Yah.
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
And if love remains, though everything is lost
We will pay the price, but we will not count the cost.
- "Bravado", Rush
Neil Barnes
@erols.com:
>
> In England they tend to be called 'circus'. Like Piccadilly Circus.
>
In Delhi, but English named, Connaught Circle. Or one circle that springs
to mind in London, Seven Dials. Helluva lot of squares and crescents,
though.
Neil Barnes
news:73jvhu07opf86iahu...@4ax.com:
> I wonder how many first-time visitors to Washington, DC are surprised
> when they discover that the Mall is the large, rectangular park that
> the US Capitol, the White House, and most of the museums face onto,
> rather than a shopping mall?
Could be a problem for all those tourists in London expecting to go
shopping on their way to see the Changing of the Guard, too...
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I remember a reader who isn't a native English speaker didn't catch the
> 'misnamed', having mentally translated square to a Place or
> Piazza-equivalent in his birth-tongue and so stripped off the
> 'four-sided' bit.
To be honest, I thought the geometrical meaning was a fossil and there
could very well be circular squared. (In reality, circular _or_ square
or anyway regular squares are a bit thin on the ground, they tend to be
your irregular polygon, though in my home town there is a rectangular
square whose shape is held in check by a raised flagstone surface).
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <GyJ16...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>
> > Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
> > "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
> > others presently; stay tuned.
> >
> > (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
> > paving, white buildings of three or four stories
> > surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
> > think of something, I betcha.)
>
> The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
> "campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
>
> I like White Moon Locus, myself ...
Or campiello. They're mostly square, though, much more so than squares
in other places. "Corte" gets used too (Hugo Pratt's wonderful "Corte
Sconta Detta Arcana" - Hidden Court Rumored to Be Arcane - was all about
Venice), and that would bring us back to Court, which I kinda like. I
liked Dorothy's suggestions, too.
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <afo7q2$sfu$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>, Geoff Wedig
<we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
> >> Anna wrote:
> >> Back when I was
> >> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
> >> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
> >> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
> >> Italian.
>
> Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but perhaps there's
> a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I don't know, I don't know
> Italian.
Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
then I'm not a native speaker.
Apart from being Spanish, I suppose to me "plaza" means either a
plaza de toros (first connotation), or a hotel (slightly lower
down the scale). I do realise that it's probably just me -- which
is why I often ask my native-speaking friends about exact
connotations of English words if I feel they are important in the
story. (I got quite an earful for innocently using "appeasement"
in a context that didn't involve modern terrorists...)
Anyway, thanks to both of you for the alternative suggestions. I
suspect that I still won't feel happy with using plaza, even
though it may be transparent to native speakers (i.e. my intended
readership): but some of the other suggestions look promising.
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <9cathugnnij5o6bfi...@4ax.com>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >:
> >
> And I can't call it "square" because it's round (and it
> >has to be, can't be changed).
>
> There are a goodly number of "squares" in
> English-speaking places that are some other shape than
> square.
>
> I've ended up removing the name
> >completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
> >once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
> >not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
> >with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
>
> Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
> "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
> others presently; stay tuned.
>
> (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
> paving, white buildings of three or four stories
> surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque.
The buildings are exactly right, including the number of stories
(and at the moment they have white/yellow and white/purple
tie-died banners hanging from them for the festival; the tiles
aren't *quite* right: it's paved with off-white stones, but has a
large circle of shiny white sand in the middle which is where the
ceremonies happen. The ceremonies will include a big spectacular
bonfire -- even more spectacular if you're slightly stoned, as
all the participants in the rituals will be by then...
There is some serious whale-singing going on in the background,
too. And people are seeing ghosts, though it may only be due to
the drugs...
Thanks for the suggestions (and thanks to all the others too!)
English really has a lot of words, doesn't it? ;-)
I like "court". Argh, can't use it because it would mix up with
the emperor's court that features in the PoV character's
hallucinations (and it's hard enough to keep the 2 settings
balanced as it is). Park sounds a bit too green for a place that
doesn't have a single tree or scrawny lawn in it. Yard seems a
bit too homely for a place where important ceremonies are held
(though only on special days); and garth has the opposite
problem, it's just as "foreign" as piazza unless you go the whole
hog like Tolkien (which I'm not even remotely going to attempt).
Maybe square isn't so bad after all, it is true that there are
plenty squares that aren't. Only I would feel compelled to say
something like "the White Moon Square, though it was really
round" -- and that would be wrong, because the word in the
original language just means "meeting place".
You know when you start getting too self-conscious about a word,
and nothing looks right any more? <g>
No, seriously: I'll put away all the suggestions and take them
out once I get to the second draft of the relevant chapters,
hopefully with a fresher and less self-conscious mind. Got to
128,000 words of first draft today, only three days (story time)
to go, plus epilogue. Even if they *are* three rather eventful
days... I'm starting to get some serious near-completion panic
here!
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <MPG.178912797...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>,
Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> In article <GyJ16...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>
> > Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
> > "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
> > others presently; stay tuned.
> >
> > (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
> > paving, white buildings of three or four stories
> > surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
> > think of something, I betcha.)
>
> The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
> "campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
Don't tempt me ;-)
No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
"Quay of the Wonders"; "The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
out of place in my setting...)
(And of course there are a lot of "campielli" = "small campi".
Diminutives, that's one of the few things I miss in English.
People do it in Ireland, using Gaelic endings like -in and -og,
but only for comic effect, as far as I can tell.)
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
I don't remember this one!
> "Quay of the Wonders";
Rio Tera' Delle Maravegie, for the curious.
"The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
> Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
> Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
> Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
> Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
> But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
> out of place in my setting...)
There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember the
original.
>
> (And of course there are a lot of "campielli" = "small campi".
> Diminutives, that's one of the few things I miss in English.
> People do it in Ireland, using Gaelic endings like -in and -og,
> but only for comic effect, as far as I can tell.)
Well, there are some: thingies for example is a sort of modifier - but I
recognize that it's not the same.
Geoff Wedig
> :
> In article <afo7q2$sfu$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>, Geoff Wedig
> <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
>> >> Anna wrote:
>> >> Back when I was
>> >> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>> >> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>> >> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>> >> Italian.
>>
>> Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but perhaps there's
>> a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I don't know, I don't know
>> Italian.
> Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
> Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
> it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
> This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
> then I'm not a native speaker.
My rule of thumb is, the longer it's been assimilated, the less likely it'll
raise eyebrows. Like all the greek and latin and french that causes no one
the least concern nowadays. I think Plaza is pretty well assimilated into
English. We use it all the time.
> Apart from being Spanish, I suppose to me "plaza" means either a
> plaza de toros (first connotation), or a hotel (slightly lower
> down the scale). I do realise that it's probably just me -- which
> is why I often ask my native-speaking friends about exact
> connotations of English words if I feel they are important in the
> story. (I got quite an earful for innocently using "appeasement"
> in a context that didn't involve modern terrorists...)
A plaza, in my idiolect, is an open, probably paved courtyard. I've seen
plazas indoors, but that's not the meaning that springs to mind. The paving
seems to be important (though gardens can be present), at least to me. But
I may be idiosyncratic.
Geoff
Geoff Wedig
> :
> In article <MPG.178912797...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>,
> Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
>> In article <GyJ16...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>
>> > Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
>> > "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
>> > others presently; stay tuned.
>> >
>> > (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
>> > paving, white buildings of three or four stories
>> > surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
>> > think of something, I betcha.)
>>
>> The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
>> "campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
> Don't tempt me ;-)
> No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
> "Quay of the Wonders"; "The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
> Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
> Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
> Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
> Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
> But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
> out of place in my setting...)
Please do! Or something very like them. These are *wonderfully* evocative.
Geoff
WooF
On 1 Jul 2002, Neil Barnes wrote:
> Or one circle that springs
> to mind in London, Seven Dials. Helluva lot of squares and crescents,
> though.
Oh, so that's what the reference to "Seven Dials" means in the
Gilbert & Sullivan operetta (I don't remember which operetta,
though ((they say that, as you grow older, memory is the second
thing to go ((( and what's the first thing? I that I don't
remember))) )) ).
George H Scithers of owls...@netaxs.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> > Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
>
> > Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
> > it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
> > This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
> > then I'm not a native speaker.
>
> My rule of thumb is, the longer it's been assimilated, the less likely it'll
> raise eyebrows. Like all the greek and latin and french that causes no one
> the least concern nowadays. I think Plaza is pretty well assimilated into
> English. We use it all the time.
Me and Anna have problems with it because it's used in Italian too, but
it is _not_ assimilated there (for the good reason that it's not needed,
there being a perfectly good and commonplace Italian word for it, and
only used in a thoroughly Spanish context).
Dan Goodman
news:2gbvhu0arl36rbn5r...@4ax.com:
>:
> In article <afo7q2$sfu$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>, Geoff Wedig
> <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>> >> Anna wrote:
>> >> Back when I was
>> >> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>> >> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>> >> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>> >> Italian.
>>
>> Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but perhaps
>> there's a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I don't
>> know, I don't know Italian.
>
> Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
>
> Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
> it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
> This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
> then I'm not a native speaker.
For Americans, it's not obviously Spanish; in other English-speaking
countries, it might seem a bit more exotic.
In any case -- "White Moon ___" is much more likely in English than "___ of
the White Moon."
WooF
On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Heather Jones wrote:
>
> "Assassinate" is one of my favorite example-words when
> I'm teaching the concept of general versus specific semantic
> frames. (The lesson goes something like, "Here's a list of
> synonyms for "kill" -- what are the constraints on the
> circumstances in which each word is a good description." Nothing
> like a little violence to get the undergrads stirred up.)
Remember John Brunner's take on this: "English has no synonyms.
It has a great many words that mean **almost* the same thing."
Wilson Heydt
>published books I read, are the "transparently-foreign" words (or
>transparently based on locations, like "damasked"). Case in
>point, I really felt I couldn't use the word "piazza" to describe
>writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>has to be, can't be changed). I've ended up removing the name
>completely, and just referring it as the "meeting place", and
>once "the meeting place dedicated to the White Moon" -- but I'm
>not entirely happy with it. I'm still hoping that I'll come up
>with a solution by the time I get to Draft 2...
Try 'plaza'.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Wilson Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:
> In article <afo7q2$sfu$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>, Geoff Wedig
><we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>> >> Anna wrote:
>> >> Back when I was
>> >> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>> >> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza of
>> >> the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too obviously
>> >> Italian.
>>
>> Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but perhaps there's
>> a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I don't know, I don't know
>> Italian.
>
>Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
>
>Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
>it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
>This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
>then I'm not a native speaker.
Remeber the line about English mugging other languages in alleys?
Plaza will work just fine as an English word--at least in the US.
>Apart from being Spanish, I suppose to me "plaza" means either a
>plaza de toros (first connotation), or a hotel (slightly lower
>down the scale). I do realise that it's probably just me -- which
>is why I often ask my native-speaking friends about exact
>connotations of English words if I feel they are important in the
>story. (I got quite an earful for innocently using "appeasement"
>in a context that didn't involve modern terrorists...)
When I think of "appeasement", I think of Chamberlain.
Wilson Heydt
Joann Zimmerman
ada...@despammed.com says...
> Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> > The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
> > "campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
> >
> > I like White Moon Locus, myself ...
>
> Or campiello. They're mostly square, though, much more so than squares
> in other places. "Corte" gets used too (Hugo Pratt's wonderful "Corte
> Sconta Detta Arcana" - Hidden Court Rumored to Be Arcane - was all about
> Venice), and that would bring us back to Court, which I kinda like. I
> liked Dorothy's suggestions, too.
Both of your suggestions come with size connotations for me. "Campiello"
is diminutive, and a "corte" seems always to be a tiny open space buried
inside a bunch of buildings, with the access frequently only semi-public.
(My favorite along those lines is "Coste Oscura"--also a "hidden court".)
I think we need to pay attention both to size and access; wasn't the
original discussion about an open space, freely accessible, of at least
medium size?
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Joann Zimmerman
ada...@despammed.com says...
> Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> > street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> > enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
This is a lovely idea. The readers who do notice will be charmed.
>
> There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember the
> original.
Bridge, actually. "Ponte delle Tette", over the Rio S. Cassiano, in the
San Polo sestiere. It seems the tarts used to display their charms from
the nearby windows; this was the prostitutes' district, and the girls
were *supposed* to live and conduct their business in that area alone.
Honored muchly in the breach, of course ...
Irina Rempt
> No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
> "Quay of the Wonders"; "The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
> Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
> Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
> Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
> Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
> But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
> out of place in my setting...)
Yes, do! Those are wonderful. I have some names translated almost
literally from streets in the older parts of Dutch towns, "Half Moon
Alley", "Old Mill Street", but the Venetian ones are much more poetic.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beginnen can ick, volherden wil ick, volbringhen sal ick.
Wilson Heydt
And besides...it worked for Harry Turtledove in _The Case of the
Toxic Spell Dump_.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Both of your suggestions come with size connotations for me. "Campiello"
> is diminutive, and a "corte" seems always to be a tiny open space buried
> inside a bunch of buildings, with the access frequently only semi-public.
> (My favorite along those lines is "Coste Oscura"--also a "hidden court".)
>
> I think we need to pay attention both to size and access; wasn't the
> original discussion about an open space, freely accessible, of at least
> medium size?
A Corte in Venice is, yes, smaller that a campo. The enclosed variation
is also called a Corte, but in the rest of Italy is more properly a
cortile, so it doesn't carry those connotations for me... Court doesn't
carry particular connotations either, but I'd have to admit I don't
think of Place Vendome when I say it. :-)
Dorothy J Heydt
<Shippey>
The OED's first instance of "appeasement" is in 1430;
the entry refers us to the verb "appease." That first
appears in 1330; the first meaning is (a) "To bring to
peace, pacify, quiet or settle (strife or disorder)"
(1330) (b) "To bring to peace, calm or quiet (persons
at strife or in disorder" (1380). [Those who wish to
quote "Solitudinem faciunt pacemque appellant" may now
do so.]
The second meaning is (a) "To pacify, assuage or allay
(anger or displeasure)" (1374); (b) "To pacify or
propitiate (him who is angry)" (1374).
3. "To assuage, soothe, allay, or relieve (a) physical
pain (obs.) or mental suffering... (b) the sufferer or
part involved." (both 1374)
4. "To pacify by satisfying demands (lit. or fig.) (a)
complaints (obs.), cravings, appetites, prejudices"
(1548) (b) the person who makes the demand or has the
appetite" 1561).
</shippey>
It would appear the meaning in current use is usually 2b
or 4b. In any case, the word has been around a good
long while and people who have not encountered the word
except in connection with modern terrorists now have the
opportunity of expanding it by analogy.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
>street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
>enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
>"Quay of the Wonders"; "The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
>Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
>Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
>Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
>Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
>But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
>out of place in my setting...)
DO IT!!!!
Those are wonderful.
>
>Diminutives, that's one of the few things I miss in English.
>People do it in Ireland, using Gaelic endings like -in and -og,
>but only for comic effect, as far as I can tell.)
Yes, English doesn't use those much. I read once about
a study of word-formation in children and adults. You
showed them a picture of a little monster. You told
them this was called a "wug." Then you showed them a
picture of two of them and asked what those were. Most
came up with "wugs". Then you showed them a picture of
a small version of the same monster and asked what that
was called. The adults came up with "wugling,"
"wuggette" [yucch], "wuggie." The children mostly said
"little wug" or "baby wug".
And historically "wugling" would mean "descendant of a
wug," not "small wug".
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Yes, do! Those are wonderful. I have some names translated almost
> literally from streets in the older parts of Dutch towns, "Half Moon
> Alley", "Old Mill Street", but the Venetian ones are much more poetic.
There's also "Friendly Love Narrow Street", "Wonders Bridge",
"Homesickness Underpass ".
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> > There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember the
> > original.
>
> Bridge, actually. "Ponte delle Tette", over the Rio S. Cassiano, in the
> San Polo sestiere. It seems the tarts used to display their charms from
> the nearby windows; this was the prostitutes' district, and the girls
> were *supposed* to live and conduct their business in that area alone.
> Honored muchly in the breach, of course ...
Exactly, that's the story. :-)
Dan Blum
> :
> In article <MPG.178912797...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>,
> Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
>> In article <GyJ16...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>
>> > Let's see. You could also use "court", "park,"
>> > "esplanade", "garth," "yard," and I'll think of some
>> > others presently; stay tuned.
>> >
>> > (I am now visualizing this place, tiled with white
>> > paving, white buildings of three or four stories
>> > surrounding it, all looking vaguely Chirico-esque. I'll
>> > think of something, I betcha.)
>>
>> The Venetian word for all piazzas other than the Piazza San Marco is
>> "campo" == "field". White Moon Field?
> Don't tempt me ;-)
> No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
> "Quay of the Wonders"; "The Haberdasheries"; "Street of the
> Melons"; "Street of the Dark Passage"; "Passion Street"; "Covered
> Canal of the Wig-wearer"; "Smoke Street"; "Street of the Two
> Moors"; "Wind Street"; "Street of the Proverbs"; "Sulphur
> Lane"... (Ok, maybe I'd need to be slightly subtler than that.
> But there are some wonderful names, and they wouldn't look at all
> out of place in my setting...)
I had not realized that Venice was on Nehwon, but in thinking about
it it makes a certain amount of sense.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum to...@panix.com
"I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't just made it up."
Peter D. Tillman
John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:12:31 -0700, Brooks Moses
> <bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> >For "mall", on the other hand, I could see the problem.
>
> I wonder how many first-time visitors to Washington, DC are surprised
> when they discover that the Mall is the large, rectangular park that
> the US Capitol, the White House, and most of the museums face onto,
> rather than a shopping mall?
>
ObSF: President Trump's Inaugural Address, by Christopher Buckley:
"...This is a mall? Where are the shops? I see grass, a pond,
an obelisk... This is not Cairo." -- WSJ, op-ed pg, 10/21/99
Geoff Wedig
> Geoff Wedig <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
>> > Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
>>
>> > Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
>> > it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
>> > This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
>> > then I'm not a native speaker.
>>
>> My rule of thumb is, the longer it's been assimilated, the less likely it'll
>> raise eyebrows. Like all the greek and latin and french that causes no one
>> the least concern nowadays. I think Plaza is pretty well assimilated into
>> English. We use it all the time.
> Me and Anna have problems with it because it's used in Italian too, but
> it is _not_ assimilated there (for the good reason that it's not needed,
> there being a perfectly good and commonplace Italian word for it, and
> only used in a thoroughly Spanish context).
Yeah, I got that. And being a foreign speaker, you can't know with any
certainty how assimilated any particular English word is. A tough problem
when writing in a foreign language, indeed. Glad I don't have to do it. ;)
Geoff
Neil Barnes
news:1fen6cr.mbha3scnw5usN%ada...@despammed.com:
> There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember the
> original.
I refer you to the (possibly apocryphal) name for Threadneedle Street,
before The Old Lady decided it was a bit vulgar. This is a family
newsgroup, so I won't elaborate...
Brenda W. Clough
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:12:31 -0700, Brooks Moses
><bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>"Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:19:27 -0500, John F. Eldredge
>>><jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Plaza" would be the closest equivalent. It was originally
>>>>Spanish, but my dictionary shows it as having been borrowed by
>>>>English circa 1675. By this time, most English-speakers probably
>>>>wouldn't even recognize "plaza" as a loan-word.
>>>>
>>>Perhaps not, but a good many Americans would have a mental picture
>>>of a shopping plaza. For that reason alone 'place' might be
>>>preferable.
>>>
>>*boggle*
>>
>>How odd. For me, that mental connotation has a hard time coming to
>>mind, even with encouragement....
>>
>>For "mall", on the other hand, I could see the problem.
>>
>
>I wonder how many first-time visitors to Washington, DC are surprised
>when they discover that the Mall is the large, rectangular park that
>the US Capitol, the White House, and most of the museums face onto,
>rather than a shopping mall?
>
This is a classic hardy perennial joke in the greater Washington metro
area, usually told about clueless tourists. A close analogue of the
'Gap of Rohan' gag in the Secret Diaries. ("There is no Gap of Rohan,
there isn't even a Banana Republic!")
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I had not realized that Venice was on Nehwon, but in thinking about
> it it makes a certain amount of sense.
Newhon? It's Ankh-Morpork. :-)
Boudewijn Rempt
> Yes, English doesn't use those much. I read once about
> a study of word-formation in children and adults. You
> showed them a picture of a little monster. You told
> them this was called a "wug." Then you showed them a
> picture of two of them and asked what those were. Most
> came up with "wugs". Then you showed them a picture of
> a small version of the same monster and asked what that
> was called. The adults came up with "wugling,"
> "wuggette" [yucch], "wuggie." The children mostly said
> "little wug" or "baby wug".
>
Not 'wuglet'? I do miss diminutives in English -- they can
be so useful, with an effect ranging from endearment, via
the absolutely neutral, to the sarcastic. But in Dutch I
miss augmentatives. I believe Italian has those, hasn't it?
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
I always rather liked the story about the flight attendant who is
supposed to have explained the name 'Grand Tetons' as 'Sweater Girl
Mountains'.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>And historically "wugling" would mean "descendant of a
>wug," not "small wug".
In Old English the suffix <-ling> meant a person or thing belonging to
or concerned with the basic noun to which the suffix was attached;
there is no implication of descent or smallness. In Old Norse the
cognate suffix had a diminutive force largely lacking in the other
Germanic languages, mostly apparent in terms for the young of animals,
e.g., <gæslingr> 'gosling' from <gás> 'goose' (which is probably the
source of English <gosling>).
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> But in Dutch I
> miss augmentatives. I believe Italian has those, hasn't it?
Oh yes. Gatto, gattone (big cat), gattaccio (bad cat), gattonaccio (big
bad cat), botte, bottazza (big casket), tavolo, tavolaccio (rough
table), sberla, sberlotto, sberlone, schiaffo, schiaffone,
schiaffonazzo, palla, pallone, pallonazzo,libro, libraccio, librone,
libercolo (small despicable book), etc. I'm a bit thrown to define the
precise connotation of -accio and -azzo. They are generally pejorative
but tending to the augmentatives. I'm wondering if there is a rule that
dictates when "accio" becomes "azzo" or the other way round. hmm.
all right, a table:
Diminutives:
- ino
mamma - mammina, minestra - minestrina, pensiero - pensierino
with the variant of -cino, olino, frex bastone, bastoncino, topo -
topolino, libro - libriccino
not too different from "little" or -y suffix: mommy, mousey, etc.
- etto
bacio- bacetto, lupo - lupetto , libro - libretto
can be comulated: Librettino
- ello
albero - alberello, paese - paesello, fuocherello (libello has come to
mean a different thing, that is, libellious pamphlet)
cumulated too: fuocherellino.
- uccio
with pejorative or more often affectionate value
casa - casuccia, avvocato - avvocatuccio (or -uzzo, specialli in the
South).
-icci(u)lo
asta - asticciuola, festa - festicciuola, porto - porticciolo
sometimes with pejorative sense: donnicciuola
- ucolo
always with pejorative sense: poetucolo (bad poet)
- (u)olo
poesia - poesiola
in various colorful combination also -olo: viottolo (via) and
mediconzolo, from medico, pejorative.
-otto
contadino - contadinotto, giovane - giovanotto, basso - basotto
Also used to indicate the young of the species: aquilotto - young eagle
-acchiotto
this also is used for youngs but with a more marked diminutive
affectionate value: lupo - lupacchiotto, orso - orsacchiotto, but also
furbo - furbacchiotto and fesso - fessacchiotto (= utter moron, but said
affectionately)
- iciattolo
diminutive, pejorative value
fiume - fiumiciattolo, libro - libriciattolo, mostro - mostriciattolo
(my favourite term of endearement for children and young animals alike:
you litte cute monster)
Augmentatives.
-one
pigro - pigrone, mano - manona
- acchione
(ironical connotation) frate -fratacchione, matto - mattacchione (clown)
- accio (pejorative)
- astro (pejorative when the base is a substantive, attenutative when it
is an adjective, in this sense comes close to -ish)
Poeta - poetastro, bianco - biancastro (withish)
Attenuatives are also - iccio, igno, -ognolo, -occio
gialliccio, giallognolo, (yellowish)
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Yes, English doesn't use those much. I read once about
>> a study of word-formation in children and adults. You
>> showed them a picture of a little monster. You told
>> them this was called a "wug." Then you showed them a
>> picture of two of them and asked what those were. Most
>> came up with "wugs". Then you showed them a picture of
>> a small version of the same monster and asked what that
>> was called. The adults came up with "wugling,"
>> "wuggette" [yucch], "wuggie." The children mostly said
>> "little wug" or "baby wug".
>Not 'wuglet'?
That would have been my first choice. I suppose that Dutch would make
<wugje>?
> I do miss diminutives in English -- they can
>be so useful, with an effect ranging from endearment, via
>the absolutely neutral, to the sarcastic. But in Dutch I
>miss augmentatives. I believe Italian has those, hasn't it?
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
And there's a geographical feature in San Francisco now
knows as "Twin Peaks," but called by the Spanish
colonizers "Los Pechos de la India," "The breasts of the
Indian girl." The latter is rather harder to visualize
now that there's a huge TV tower (or maybe it's several)
atop them.
Dorothy J Heydt
Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> Yes, English doesn't use those much. I read once about
>> a study of word-formation in children and adults. You
>> showed them a picture of a little monster. You told
>> them this was called a "wug." Then you showed them a
>> picture of two of them and asked what those were. Most
>> came up with "wugs". Then you showed them a picture of
>> a small version of the same monster and asked what that
>> was called. The adults came up with "wugling,"
>> "wuggette" [yucch], "wuggie." The children mostly said
>> "little wug" or "baby wug".
>>
>
>Not 'wuglet'?
There may have been "wuglet." I read this article,
geez, around 1967.
I do miss diminutives in English -- they can
>be so useful, with an effect ranging from endearment, via
>the absolutely neutral, to the sarcastic. But in Dutch I
>miss augmentatives. I believe Italian has those, hasn't it?
Spanish also. It is really hard to translate them into
English, too, since they frequently have an additional
pejorative meaning. They don't translate just as "big
{noun}," but as "big fat sloppy ugly stupid {noun}."
On the other hand, "rata" is "rat," but "raton", which
ought to mean "big rat," means "mouse." As in Mickey.
Helen
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
>
>Yes, English doesn't use those much. I read once about
>a study of word-formation in children and adults. You
>showed them a picture of a little monster. You told
>them this was called a "wug." Then you showed them a
>picture of two of them and asked what those were. Most
>came up with "wugs". Then you showed them a picture of
>a small version of the same monster and asked what that
>was called. The adults came up with "wugling,"
>"wuggette" [yucch], "wuggie." The children mostly said
>"little wug" or "baby wug".
>
>And historically "wugling" would mean "descendant of a
>wug," not "small wug".
>
Our Siamese cat was called "Catlet", on account of being small (though
she had an official name on her pedigree certificate).
Also (semi-serious question), if a "booklet" is a small "book" and a
"leaflet" is a small "leaf", was there ever a "pamph" from which the
diminutive "pamphlet" is derived?
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Boudewijn Rempt
>>Not 'wuglet'?
>
> That would have been my first choice. I suppose that Dutch would make
> <wugje>?
>
Not quite -- it would be 'wuggetje', analogous to 'muggetje' or 'weggetje'.
The formations 'mugje' and 'wegje' do exist, but are used in slightly
different contexts. More cute, I think, but I'm not sure.
Boudewijn Rempt
>
> Also (semi-serious question), if a "booklet" is a small "book" and a
> "leaflet" is a small "leaf", was there ever a "pamph" from which the
> diminutive "pamphlet" is derived?
>
Of course! 'pamph' was clearly derived from 17th century Dutch
'pamphiertje', thereby proving that Goropius Becanus was right
after all.
Wilson Heydt
Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>>>Not 'wuglet'?
>>
>> That would have been my first choice. I suppose that Dutch would make
>> <wugje>?
>>
>
>Not quite -- it would be 'wuggetje', analogous to 'muggetje' or 'weggetje'.
>The formations 'mugje' and 'wegje' do exist, but are used in slightly
>different contexts. More cute, I think, but I'm not sure.
Hmm...I wonder if that's somewhere in the etymology of 'muggety
pie'...
Dragan Milosevic
> Also (semi-serious question), if a "booklet" is a small "book" and a
> "leaflet" is a small "leaf", was there ever a "pamph" from which the
> diminutive "pamphlet" is derived?
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate says:
Etymology: Middle English _pamflet_ unbound booklet, from _Pamphilus seu De
Amore_ Pamphilus or On Love, popular Latin love poem of the 12th century
Date: 14th century
Looks like "let" was added by Englishmen.
Del Cotter
Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> said:
>ada...@despammed.com (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote
>> There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember the
>> original.
>
>I refer you to the (possibly apocryphal) name for Threadneedle Street,
>before The Old Lady decided it was a bit vulgar. This is a family
>newsgroup, so I won't elaborate...
The oldest map I can lay my hands on at short notice is Ogilby's 1676
Survey of the City, which has "Threed Needle Street" and no Bank of
England in sight (the Bank having yet to be born). So apocryphal, I'm
afraid.
--
. . . . Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk . . . .
JustRead:e:TerryPratchettTheTruth:JeromeKJeromeThreeMenInABoat:WilliamGo
ldmanThePrincessBride:AlastairReynoldsRevelationSpace:GregEganQuarantine
ToRead:KimStanleyRobinsonTheYearsOfRice&Salt:BenJeapesHisMajesty'sStarsh
Dorothy J Heydt
First tell us what 'mugje' and 'muggetje' mean. Then
I'll explain muggety pie.
James Wallis
<nailed_...@hotmail.com> writes
>"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in news:3D1F990D.2010801
>@erols.com:
>
>In Delhi, but English named, Connaught Circle. Or one circle that springs
>to mind in London, Seven Dials.
Seven Dials is a special case, named for a seven-faced clock that used
to stand at its centre.
Call it a roundabout. That'll confuse people nicely.
--
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address (ja...@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>In article <GyLBv...@kithrup.com>, Wilson Heydt <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <3d20cd5c$0$94915$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl>,
>>Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>>>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>>>>Not 'wuglet'?
>>>> That would have been my first choice. I suppose that Dutch would make
>>>> <wugje>?
>>>Not quite -- it would be 'wuggetje', analogous to 'muggetje' or 'weggetje'.
>>>The formations 'mugje' and 'wegje' do exist, but are used in slightly
>>>different contexts. More cute, I think, but I'm not sure.
>>Hmm...I wonder if that's somewhere in the etymology of 'muggety
>>pie'...
>First tell us what 'mugje' and 'muggetje' mean. Then
>I'll explain muggety pie.
I believe that <muggetje> is a diminutive of <mug> 'gnat, midge';
nothing to do with odd bits of the pig. Speaking of which, <muggets>
is an old West Country term for chitterlings as well as a term for the
intestines of a calf or sheep, and <muggety pie> is also recorded as
<mugilty-pie>. The origin is apparently unknown, but if the
connection with pigs is original, it might be in part from Cornish
<mogh> 'pigs, swine'.
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
>>I'll explain muggety pie.
>
>I believe that <muggetje> is a diminutive of <mug> 'gnat, midge';
>nothing to do with odd bits of the pig. Speaking of which, <muggets>
>is an old West Country term for chitterlings as well as a term for the
>intestines of a calf or sheep, and <muggety pie> is also recorded as
><mugilty-pie>. The origin is apparently unknown, but if the
>connection with pigs is original, it might be in part from Cornish
><mogh> 'pigs, swine'.
Okay.
"Muggety pie," however, as described in Hartley's _Food
in England," is (or used to be) made in sheep-raising
districts in England out of the umbilical cords of
newborn sheep. A highly seasonal dish, obviously, and
said to be very gelatinous.
I met a guy once whose particular brand of vegetarianism
he stated as "I won't eat anything with a central
nervous system." So I asked him about muggety pie. He
acknowledged as how yes, it fit within his criteria, and
no, he wouldn't eat it anyway.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 10:08:31 GMT, Anna Mazzoldi
<mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:
> In article <afo7q2$sfu$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>, Geoff Wedig
><we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>> >> Anna wrote:
>> >> Back when I was
>> >> writing in Italian, the place was called "piazza della luna
>> >> bianca", and that was no problem. In English, though, "Piazza
>> >> of the White Moon" really sounds wrong to my ear -- too
>> >> obviously Italian.
>>
>> Why not "Plaza"? That seems to have the right meanings, but
>> perhaps there's a connotation that Piazza has that plaza won't. I
>> don't know, I don't know Italian.
>
>Well... because plaza is obviously Spanish, no? ;-)
>
>Hmm, I see from these comments (yours and Tim's) that evidently
>it's not as obviously foreign to native speakers as "piazza".
>This surprises me, because to me it *is* obviously Spanish -- but
>then I'm not a native speaker.
>
>Apart from being Spanish, I suppose to me "plaza" means either a
>plaza de toros (first connotation), or a hotel (slightly lower
>down the scale). I do realise that it's probably just me -- which
>is why I often ask my native-speaking friends about exact
>connotations of English words if I feel they are important in the
>story. (I got quite an earful for innocently using "appeasement"
>in a context that didn't involve modern terrorists...)
>
>Anyway, thanks to both of you for the alternative suggestions. I
>suspect that I still won't feel happy with using plaza, even
>though it may be transparent to native speakers (i.e. my intended
>readership): but some of the other suggestions look promising.
Plaza is, indeed, a loan-word borrowed from Spanish, but, according
to my dictionary (Random House Webster's College Dictionary, 1991
edition) the first usage in English was circa 1675-1685. Once a
loan-word has been in English usage for that long, most English-
speakers aren't even aware that the word originated in another
language. As James Nicoll so colorfully put it, "The problem with
defending the purity of the English language is that English is about
as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on
occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace."
Woodrow Wilson
Gillian Houck
Heydt) wrote:
>the place was called "piazza della luna
>>bianca"
I'd call that the Plaza of the White Moon, I guess that's from
Spanish, so maybe it's a Californian thing?
Gillian
--
"I could leave, but I'll just stay. All my stuff's here anyway."
Barenaked Ladies, "Pinch Me"
Neil Barnes
news:GyL5s...@kithrup.com:
There's 'the Pap of Glencoe' just above the village at the end of the
valley. Just one, though.
Neil Barnes
news:xEYOoVBo...@branta.demon.co.uk:
> On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, in rec.arts.sf.composition,
> Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>ada...@despammed.com (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote
>>> There's also a "Street of the Tits" somewhere but I don't remember
>>> the original.
>>
>>I refer you to the (possibly apocryphal) name for Threadneedle Street,
>>before The Old Lady decided it was a bit vulgar. This is a family
>>newsgroup, so I won't elaborate...
>
> The oldest map I can lay my hands on at short notice is Ogilby's 1676
> Survey of the City, which has "Threed Needle Street" and no Bank of
> England in sight (the Bank having yet to be born). So apocryphal, I'm
> afraid.
>
Hmmm. Dunno. Lots of references to the *place* itself existing
though...one in Oxford, too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A753527
Neil Barnes
news:3d20cd5c$0$94915$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>>>Not 'wuglet'?
>>
>> That would have been my first choice. I suppose that Dutch would
>> make <wugje>?
>>
>
> Not quite -- it would be 'wuggetje', analogous to 'muggetje' or
> 'weggetje'. The formations 'mugje' and 'wegje' do exist, but are used
> in slightly different contexts. More cute, I think, but I'm not sure.
>
I'm not sure I want to be present at the context wherein a 'wegje' is
used - sounds painful!
Brooks Moses
One notes that that page also dates the existence of the earlier street
name at around 1230, almost 450 years prior to the map that you
mention. Granted that, I don't think the map is sufficient evidence for
apocryphality.
- Brooks
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>news:xEYOoVBo...@branta.demon.co.uk:
Eilert Ekwall, _Street-Names of the City of London_ (Oxford: Clarendon
Press, 1954), p. 162f:
*
*
*
* WARNING: Some may find some of the street-names mentioned
* here objectionable.
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
<Gropecuntelane> is the lost name of a lane in St. Pancras and
St. Mary Colechurch. As the two parishes are on opposite sides
of Cheap, it is difficult to see how the lane can have touched
both, unless one extended across Cheap. The probability seems
to be that the lane was north of Cheap. The examples noticed
are: <Gropecontelane> 1279 CW i. 42, <Groppecounte Lane>
1276 (1279) PaulsMSS 48 b, <Gropecuntelane> 1323 CW I. 302,
<Gropecountelane> 1340 (1341), 1348 (1349) ib. 448, 581. The
name is an indecent one; ME <cunte> means 'cunnus'.
The name is found in other towns, sometimes varying with the
euphemism Grope Lane. In some towns it is recorded earlier
than in London. Magpie Lane in Oxford is <Gropecuntelane>
c. 1230 StJohn, c. 1230-40 Fridesw i. 392, <Groppecuntelane>
1260-1, <Gropelane> 1261 Oriel Records 75 f. A lane in
Northampton is <Groppecuntelane> 1274 RH, one in Wells
(Somerset) <Gropecuntelane> 1285-91, <Gropelane> 1312
HMC, Wells MSS, one in Peterborough <Gropelane> 1500. A
<Gropecountelane> in Stebbing Ess is found c. 1325. Grope
Lanes are recorded in Chipping Barnet Hrt, Bristol and
Worcester. There is a Grape Lane in York (<Grapcunt lane>
1328-9 Cl, <Grapelane> 1370 PNER). See the volumes of the
Place-name Society (passim).
Ekwall does not identify this lane with the later Threadneedle Street,
either here or in his discussion of the latter.
Brian
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <1fen6cr.mbha3scnw5usN%ada...@despammed.com>,
ada...@despammed.com (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> Anna Mazzoldi <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, the real temptation is to use direct translations of Venetian
> > street-names for my city. I may still give in to it, I think few
> > enough readers would notice... "Covered Canal of the Assassins";
>
> I don't remember this one!
Rio Tera' degli Assassini, in S. Marco, between Campo S. Angelo e
Campo Manin.
> > "Quay of the Wonders";
>
> Rio Tera' Delle Maravegie, for the curious.
Well, Ponte delle Maravegie really (bridge). I just checked -- I
thought it was a Fondego.
Ciao,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi writing from Dublin, Ireland
"You look like Billie Holiday with a hibiscus flower
on her ear, except it's a purple orangutan." --Laurence
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> > > "Quay of the Wonders";
> >
> > Rio Tera' Delle Maravegie, for the curious.
>
> Well, Ponte delle Maravegie really (bridge). I just checked -- I
> thought it was a Fondego.
>
You're right - I just took my Corto Malteses down from the upper shelves
( I liked them a lot more when I was a kid).
Boudewijn Rempt
Are you not confusing 'weg' with 'wig'?
Tim S
>
>
> On 1 Jul 2002, Neil Barnes wrote:
>
>> Or one circle that springs
>> to mind in London, Seven Dials. Helluva lot of squares and crescents,
>> though.
>
> Oh, so that's what the reference to "Seven Dials" means in the
> Gilbert & Sullivan operetta (I don't remember which operetta,
> though ((they say that, as you grow older, memory is the second
> thing to go ((( and what's the first thing? I that I don't
> remember))) )) ).
Seven roads meet there, separated by seven narrow ends of buildings. There
used to be a clock ("dial") on each of the buildings, though I don't think
they're there any more. The square (or heptagon!) gave its name to the whole
surrounding district, which was a notorious crime-ridden slumland in the
nineteenth century. (It's now a charming tourist area.)
Tim
Tim S
> Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes, do! Those are wonderful. I have some names translated almost
>> literally from streets in the older parts of Dutch towns, "Half Moon
>> Alley", "Old Mill Street", but the Venetian ones are much more poetic.
>
> There's also "Friendly Love Narrow Street", "Wonders Bridge",
> "Homesickness Underpass ".
On my way from the tube station to work at my previous job, I used to pass
"Bleeding Heart Lane". (Originally named after a pub, I'd guess.)
Tim
Dorothy J Heydt
*sigh*
The streets around here are named exciting things like
"Evelyn" and "Talbot" and "Gilman." A little further
north there are a lot of names like "Marin" and "Solano"
and all the other California counties. Not to mention
"Martin Luther King, Jr." The oldest houses I know of,
or at least the sidewalks in front of them which have
dates imprinted in them, date from 1914. It just isn't
fair.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
The streets around here are named "Lee" and "Grant" and "Stonewall"
and so forth.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <1fenumk.169m2uk1dtp43kN%ada...@despammed.com>,
ada...@despammed.com (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> all right, a table:
Anna's quite extensive table of size- and affective- modifiers in
Italian forgot to include one peculiar and mildly amusing
feature: there are cases where you can add a modifier to a
feminine noun, and at the same time turn it into a masculine --
for no very good reason.
The blatant example can be made with "donna" (woman, rather
obviuosly feminine)
Diminutive can be "donnina" (feminine), but also "donnino"
(masculine). The two variants are about as likely as each other.
The augmentative *can* be "donnona" (feminine), but it is much
more likely to be "donnone" (masculine). (In this case there is
indeed an implication that the person in question is a bit of a
virago, or in any case not particularly feminine).
It can happen with other nouns as well, but not all. I have no
idea if it is in any way linked to the German feature where all
diminutives become neuters (which is why a young womanen,
Maedchen, is neuter). (Italian doesn't have a neuter, and most
Latin neuters have become masculine).
Italian is a mad language, I pity those poor people who have to
learn it as a second language. English is much easier ;-)
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <MPG.178a3b741...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>,
Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> I think we need to pay attention both to size and access; wasn't the
> original discussion about an open space, freely accessible, of at least
> medium size?
Yep. Not so big that *I* would consider "corte" inappropriate,
though. Or court -- a very good word, in fact, if it didn't clash
with another "court" in the same context, creating more confusion
than I need in what is already a very complex PoV-juggling scene.
Access is peculiar -- it is freely accessible, but the people who
would actually need/want to access it are relatively few, since
it's on a small island with a small population (while we're
talking about Venice, think Torcello rather than Murano). I
think, on the whole, the question of access wouldn't rule out
"corte" either.
What would make it less appropriately is probably my
semi-conscious feeling that "corte" denotes a place which is in
some way primarily an annex of the houses around it -- a kind of
outdoor extension for some tasks and in some weathers. The place
I'm thinking of is primarily a meeting place and a ritual space
-- the houses have their own individual courtyards for their own
outdoor tasks.
At the moment, "square" is starting to look like a good choice.
However, I've decided that I'll simply squirrel away all the
suggested alternatives, and choose once I get to rewriting the
scene in the second draft. Unless something absolutely perfect
strikes me in the meantime, of course ;-)
Dan Goodman
news:Gyn1F...@kithrup.com:
A place doesn't have to be old to have strange names.
Los Angeles has a section with First Helena Drive, Second Helena Drive...
up through 18th, I think.
In the Twin Cities, there's a set of streets named after the states in
alphabetical order.
Including "Quebec" and a few other alternate-world states.
Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
> The streets around here are named "Lee" and "Grant" and "Stonewall"
> and so forth.
Around here* those are the names of trees (well, Lee and Grant. Sherman,
but no Stonewall.) About the only street in the area is the one that
connects Grant to Sherman (the trees), which has the creative name of
"Generals Highway".
--
"George" Cathy Purchis cat...@value.net
*"Here" being roughly http://www.nps.gov/seki/ggvc.htm
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Italian is a mad language, I pity those poor people who have to
> learn it as a second language. English is much easier ;-)
It's not really mad... it just contains multitudes. And reflects a
certain penchant for deviousness and make up rules on the spot as they
suit you.
Geoff Wedig
> *sigh*
We have official names like that where I grew up, but beyond those are
things like Groves Ave., which is only known to the residents as that.
Everyone else knows it as "Slaughter House Hill". So there's hope for us
por 'Murkins yet!
Geoff
Marilee J. Layman
<cat...@value.net> wrote:
>"Marilee J. Layman" wrote:
>
>> The streets around here are named "Lee" and "Grant" and "Stonewall"
>> and so forth.
>
>Around here* those are the names of trees (well, Lee and Grant. Sherman,
>but no Stonewall.) About the only street in the area is the one that
>connects Grant to Sherman (the trees), which has the creative name of
>"Generals Highway".
>*"Here" being roughly http://www.nps.gov/seki/ggvc.htm
I live in Manassas, VA, the site of the first battle of the Civil War.
Suzanne Palmer
> I live in Manassas, VA, the site of the first battle of the Civil War.
And, more importantly, the BugOut. (-:
-Suzanne
Michael dot Grant
>>
>>In Delhi, but English named, Connaught Circle. Or one circle that springs
>>to mind in London, Seven Dials.
>
>Seven Dials is a special case, named for a seven-faced clock that used
>to stand at its centre.
>
>Call it a roundabout. That'll confuse people nicely.
...a term coined by an American in England, which quickly displaced
the resident term "gyratory circus". Can't see why...
--------------------< Mchl...@phlogiston.aethernet >------------------------
Don't look behind you; the lemmings are catching up.=8-0| Risus Sardonicus :-]
Things look different when your eyes are 2000 AU apart. | Michael.Grant
Sherkaner Underhill: a kind of Spider Leonardo da Vinge.| @dial.pipex.com
-------------< http://website.lineone.net/~michael.s.grant >------------------
Joann Zimmerman
Michae...@dial.pipex.com says...
> James Wallis <ja...@erstwhile.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> writes
> >>"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>In Delhi, but English named, Connaught Circle. Or one circle that springs
> >>to mind in London, Seven Dials.
> >
> >Seven Dials is a special case, named for a seven-faced clock that used
> >to stand at its centre.
> >
> >Call it a roundabout. That'll confuse people nicely.
>
> ...a term coined by an American in England, which quickly displaced
> the resident term "gyratory circus". Can't see why...
Given that in at least some parts of the US they're called "traffic
circles", I find this downright peculiar.
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
David Given
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
[...]
> The streets around here are named exciting things like
> "Evelyn" and "Talbot" and "Gilman." A little further
> north there are a lot of names like "Marin" and "Solano"
> and all the other California counties. Not to mention
> "Martin Luther King, Jr." The oldest houses I know of,
> or at least the sidewalks in front of them which have
> dates imprinted in them, date from 1914. It just isn't
> fair.
You think you have it bad? I live in Parsley Close. This opens off
Tamarind Way, along with Basil Close, Clove Close, Bay Close, and
Cinnamon Way. Just down the road is Pimento Drive, which has Paprika
Close and Chicory Close, and opposite is Rosemary Avenue, with Fennel
Close, Chive Road, Caraway Road and Thyme Close...
--
+- David Given --McQ-+ "Why should we put ourselves out of our way to
| d...@cowlark.com | serve posterity? For what has posterity ever done
| (d...@tao-group.com) | for us?" --- Sir Boyle Roche
+- www.cowlark.com --+