Seton Hill University
Sunday
at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of Popular Fiction
degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I have found such a master's
program. The only problem I have is that they just became a University in
July of this year. Should this be a concern at all in my decision of where
to get my masters? I haven't decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but
Seton Hill only having become a University so recently keeps me from
seriously considering them.
--
Albert
"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks." --Robert Heinlein
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> I will be done with my bachelor's degree this summer and have been looking
> at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of Popular Fiction
> degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I have found such a master's
> program. The only problem I have is that they just became a University in
> July of this year. Should this be a concern at all in my decision of where
> to get my masters? I haven't decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but
> Seton Hill only having become a University so recently keeps me from
> seriously considering them.
I'd be happy to answer anyone's questions about Seton Hill. I'm starting
my fourth semester, which would normally be the final one, except that I
wanted to change books. Since the program requires a marketable novel at
the end, that means that I will have to write a whole 'nother book.
Seton Hill is an old school, nearly 120 years. It became a University this
year because it suddenly had a large population of graduate students.
Traditionally a women's school, they now are co-ed -- and always have been
in the "Writing Popular Fiction" program, but a lot of the early students
were Seton Hill alumnae and therefore female.
Frankly, my own experience[1] has been that this is the only place that
actively encourages genre writing. Two of the mentors for science fiction
and fantasy are Nalo Hopkinson (recent World Fantasy Award winner and
Campbell Award Winner) and James Morrow[2], winner of the World Fantasy
and Nebula awards.
[1] Having been rejected from many MFA programs, but admitted to one with
the condition that I also write literary fiction.
[2] And, c'mon, you gotta admit that it is amusing that a Catholic
university has as one of its faculty the guy who wrote _Towing Jehovah_.
--
_Deirdre http://deirdre.net
"Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up
and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...."
-- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel
Sunday
"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2...
>
> I'd be happy to answer anyone's questions about Seton Hill. I'm starting
> my fourth semester, which would normally be the final one, except that I
> wanted to change books. Since the program requires a marketable novel at
> the end, that means that I will have to write a whole 'nother book.
>
That is another reason that I have to seriously think about them before I
decide to apply or not. I have never even attempted to write long fiction.
I have done short stories and have an idea or two that I believe could
become a novel, but I have never written one or even attempted to.
How does the only going to the school 2 weeks a year work out? I know you
are supposed to do work on your own, but do you get anything more out of it
than you would by submitting your work to the critters workshop group?
(Other than the degree, of course)
> Seton Hill is an old school, nearly 120 years. It became a University this
> year because it suddenly had a large population of graduate students.
> Traditionally a women's school, they now are co-ed -- and always have been
> in the "Writing Popular Fiction" program, but a lot of the early students
> were Seton Hill alumnae and therefore female.
>
> Frankly, my own experience[1] has been that this is the only place that
> actively encourages genre writing. Two of the mentors for science fiction
> and fantasy are Nalo Hopkinson (recent World Fantasy Award winner and
> Campbell Award Winner) and James Morrow[2], winner of the World Fantasy
> and Nebula awards.
>
> [1] Having been rejected from many MFA programs, but admitted to one with
> the condition that I also write literary fiction.
I finished taking a Creative writing class at the university that I am
attending now, and while the instructor did not completly dismiss genre
fiction he did seem to have a slight bias against it. Something to the
effect that most was preachy and not very good, but I think that you could
say that same thing about 99% of the fiction ever published. I think
transcending and making something more than what is typical happens only
rarely, regardless of genre.
And this is not the only one that I got this feeling from, so if I were to
continue towards an MFA at the University I am attending I would have to
write more "traditional" literary fiction to gain acceptance.
Mary Messall
> [2] And, c'mon, you gotta admit that it is amusing that a Catholic
> university has as one of its faculty the guy who wrote _Towing Jehovah_.
Really? Amusing, but appropriate in one sense. He's one of my favorite
authors. Have you had him for any classes? Are his opinions about the
writing process as interesting as all his other opinions? Any good
quotes or misquotes?
-Mary
--
{I drank at every vine. / The last was like the first. / I came upon
no wine / So wonderful as thirst.} {"Heaven bless the babe!" they said
"What queer books she must have read!"} -two by Edna St Vincent Millay
http://indagabo.orcon.net.nz/ -> my soapbox and grandstand and gallery
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> That is another reason that I have to seriously think about them before I
> decide to apply or not. I have never even attempted to write long fiction.
> I have done short stories and have an idea or two that I believe could
> become a novel, but I have never written one or even attempted to.
You can do a collection of short stories.
> How does the only going to the school 2 weeks a year work out? I know you
> are supposed to do work on your own, but do you get anything more out of it
> than you would by submitting your work to the critters workshop group?
> (Other than the degree, of course)
The format is similar to the one I used for my undergrad degree at Vermont
College (I did the Adult Degree Program). However, there, none of the
fiction faculty would work with me on genre fiction. Specifically, Tom
Absher, who is still there, would not work with me unless I agreed to
write only literary fiction. I declined and worked with a poet for one
semester and science faculty another. Sometimes adjunct faculty were more
open. Ricki Gard Diamond was open, but I never got to work with her. This
was 10 years ago, so things may have changed.
So, my own experience was that my development as a writer was hurt by
having to make compromises -- I didn't learn much about fiction writing.
Even if I chose fiction faculty, I wouldn't have learned about writing
fiction that was important to me.
As far as getting stuff out of Seton Hill's program (above and beyond
Critters), quite a lot. I personally think their required lectures are too
basic -- they don't cover subtle enough stuff to be really helpful in my
opinion, which is one reason I attended Clarion this year right in the
middle.
That said, I've seen other people's writing improve significantly while in
the program.
> I finished taking a Creative writing class at the university that I am
> attending now, and while the instructor did not completly dismiss genre
> fiction he did seem to have a slight bias against it. Something to the
> effect that most was preachy and not very good, but I think that you could
> say that same thing about 99% of the fiction ever published. I think
> transcending and making something more than what is typical happens only
> rarely, regardless of genre.
I'm not sure he's read much genre fiction.
Remember, ultimately, the most important thing is that you need an
environment that nourishes you.
> And this is not the only one that I got this feeling from, so if I were to
> continue towards an MFA at the University I am attending I would have to
> write more "traditional" literary fiction to gain acceptance.
And continue to write it for several years during the program, not to
mention hearing genre fiction sneered at. MFA programs are about the
homogenization of taste. Really. If what the professors write isn't your
cup of tea, don't go there.
I had one bad community college teacher who railed over and over that we
shouldn't use "any Latinate words." It didn't matter that he used them
without knowing he used them. He was rude and abusive, so I dropped the
class.
I've had other teachers at the community college level who were great.
Raymond Obstfeld, who has a couple books out from Writer's Digest, was one
of the best.
I'm currently reading Betsy Lerner's _The Forest for the Trees_. She gives
several anecdotes from her own experience in an MFA program.
"One woman working on a novel based on her experiences as an undercover
cop was told by a professor that solely because of the subject matter he
could not possibly read or respond to her work."
If you're willing to put up with that, go for the MFA. If you don't
believe me, talk to other people in the genre who have MFAs. Jeanne
Cavelos, for example. As Orson Scott Card[1] about his experience in grad
school.
[1] Who is, by the way, the speaker at this upcoming Seton Hill residency.
Other speakers have been Christopher Curtis, Donald Maass, Octavia butler,
as well as others that I don't know about.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
> Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
> > [2] And, c'mon, you gotta admit that it is amusing that a Catholic
> > university has as one of its faculty the guy who wrote _Towing Jehovah_.
>
> Really? Amusing, but appropriate in one sense. He's one of my favorite
> authors. Have you had him for any classes? Are his opinions about the
> writing process as interesting as all his other opinions? Any good
> quotes or misquotes?
Jim Morrow was my mentor last term and, yes, his opinions were
interesting. However, how I work and how he works are quite different and
I kind of felt like he didn't get my process and he felt like I wasn't
getting things. For that reason, we found working with each other
frustrating (as writers whose processes differ significantly do).
The really big difference is that I prefer writing a whole piece before
doing significant revisions. His view is that a first draft is not an
unrevised draft. I tried working the other way and it doesn't work for me.
I don't really have any good quotes or misquotes there, sorry.
This semester, I'll be working with Tom Lipinski, a mystery writer. But
I'm working on a mainstream book.
Dan Goodman
news:Dlydna0II5Y...@comcast.com:
> I will be done with my bachelor's degree this summer and have been
> looking at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of
> Popular Fiction degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I have
> found such a master's program. The only problem I have is that they
> just became a University in July of this year. Should this be a
> concern at all in my decision of where to get my masters? I haven't
> decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but Seton Hill only having
> become a University so recently keeps me from seriously considering
> them.
Keep in mind that having a degree in something, and being a competent
practicioner of it, don't automatically go together.
For sf/fantasy writing specifically, there are at least two writers who
never finished high school. One of them is Fred Pohl. True, the other one
has done rather better as an editor: Patrick Nielsen Hayden.
That aside -- I would say that Seton Hall's having only recently become a
University is a _plus_. They're on their way up.
Dan Goodman
news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2:
An impressive endorsement!
> [1] Having been rejected from many MFA programs, but admitted to one
> with the condition that I also write literary fiction.
>
> [2] And, c'mon, you gotta admit that it is amusing that a Catholic
> university has as one of its faculty the guy who wrote _Towing
> Jehovah_.
>
I would guess that he doesn't teach any religion courses....
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
> "Sunday" <albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote in
> news:Dlydna0II5Y...@comcast.com:
>
> > I will be done with my bachelor's degree this summer and have been
> > looking at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of
> > Popular Fiction degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I have
> > found such a master's program. The only problem I have is that they
> > just became a University in July of this year. Should this be a
> > concern at all in my decision of where to get my masters? I haven't
> > decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but Seton Hill only having
> > become a University so recently keeps me from seriously considering
> > them.
>
> Keep in mind that having a degree in something, and being a competent
> practicioner of it, don't automatically go together.
True. But as many genre writers who otherwise learn well in classes have
found out, if they want to learn writing, it's hard to do it in a group
that sneers at anything not litfic.
> For sf/fantasy writing specifically, there are at least two writers who
> never finished high school. One of them is Fred Pohl. True, the other one
> has done rather better as an editor: Patrick Nielsen Hayden.
True. However, some of us hope that we'll be able to teach and perhaps
allow other people's genre fiction writing dreams to become reality.
> That aside -- I would say that Seton Hall's having only recently become a
> University is a _plus_. They're on their way up.
It's Seton _Hill_ btw. Seton Hall is also a university, but in a different
state. They are both named after Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton.
Seton Hill is a small school; Seton Hall is about 7x the size.
Dan Goodman
> In article <Xns92E9C30B77F...@209.98.13.60>, Dan Goodman
> <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> "Sunday" <albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote in
>> news:Dlydna0II5Y...@comcast.com:
>>
>> > I will be done with my bachelor's degree this summer and have been
>> > looking at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of
>> > Popular Fiction degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I
>> > have found such a master's program. The only problem I have is
>> > that they just became a University in July of this year. Should
>> > this be a concern at all in my decision of where to get my masters?
>> > I haven't decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but Seton
>> > Hill only having become a University so recently keeps me from
>> > seriously considering them.
>>
>> Keep in mind that having a degree in something, and being a competent
>> practicioner of it, don't automatically go together.
>
> True. But as many genre writers who otherwise learn well in classes
> have found out, if they want to learn writing, it's hard to do it in a
> group that sneers at anything not litfic.
It's my suspicion that those classes mostly aren't good for writing
litfic, either.
>> For sf/fantasy writing specifically, there are at least two writers
>> who never finished high school. One of them is Fred Pohl. True, the
>> other one has done rather better as an editor: Patrick Nielsen
>> Hayden.
>
> True. However, some of us hope that we'll be able to teach and perhaps
> allow other people's genre fiction writing dreams to become reality.
A worthy goal!!
>> That aside -- I would say that Seton Hall's having only recently
>> become a University is a _plus_. They're on their way up.
>
> It's Seton _Hill_ btw. Seton Hall is also a university, but in a
> different state. They are both named after Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton.
Argh! I knew that, and it looked right when I typed it....
Marilee J. Layman
The local Seton Hall (about a mile from me) is a Catholic School up
through high school.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
> dei...@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) wrote in
> news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2:
>
> > True. But as many genre writers who otherwise learn well in classes
> > have found out, if they want to learn writing, it's hard to do it in a
> > group that sneers at anything not litfic.
>
> It's my suspicion that those classes mostly aren't good for writing
> litfic, either.
Quite probably so.
Ironies abound.
Brooks Moses
> I will be done with my bachelor's degree this summer and have been looking
> at Master's programs. I was interested in the Writing of Popular Fiction
> degree at Seton Hill, as it is the only place I have found such a master's
> program. The only problem I have is that they just became a University in
> July of this year. Should this be a concern at all in my decision of where
> to get my masters? I haven't decided on where exactly I want to go yet, but
> Seton Hill only having become a University so recently keeps me from
> seriously considering them.
One thing that I don't think anybody's directly asked yet, but makes a
big difference to the answer: what do you want out of getting this
degree? How to you expect it to be of use to you, and what do you want
to learn from the process?
There's a wide range of answers to your question, depending on what your
reasons and wishes with regard to the degree are....
- Brooks
Sunday
"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2...
> In article <FjOdnVS_UPg...@comcast.com>, "Sunday"
> <albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> And continue to write it for several years during the program, not to
> mention hearing genre fiction sneered at. MFA programs are about the
> homogenization of taste. Really. If what the professors write isn't your
> cup of tea, don't go there.
>
Well, I do actually like their writing. They are very good. I have a wide
range of tastes. Genre fiction just happens to be my personal favorite, but
I wish I could put together as compelling stories as they do and hope to
learn some of that from them.
> [1] Who is, by the way, the speaker at this upcoming Seton Hill residency.
> Other speakers have been Christopher Curtis, Donald Maass, Octavia butler,
> as well as others that I don't know about.
>
Wish I could be there to hear him talk. I have always liked his writing.
Sunday
> <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that having a degree in something, and being a competent
> > practicioner of it, don't automatically go together.
>
> True. But as many genre writers who otherwise learn well in classes have
> found out, if they want to learn writing, it's hard to do it in a group
> that sneers at anything not litfic.
>
> > For sf/fantasy writing specifically, there are at least two writers who
> > never finished high school. One of them is Fred Pohl. True, the other
one
> > has done rather better as an editor: Patrick Nielsen Hayden.
>
> True. However, some of us hope that we'll be able to teach and perhaps
> allow other people's genre fiction writing dreams to become reality.
>
the skills that will improve my writing. And in the end a PhD is not out of
the question.
Sunday
news:3E02A875...@cits1.stanford.edu...
> One thing that I don't think anybody's directly asked yet, but makes a
> big difference to the answer: what do you want out of getting this
> degree? How to you expect it to be of use to you, and what do you want
> to learn from the process?
>
> There's a wide range of answers to your question, depending on what your
> reasons and wishes with regard to the degree are....
>
> - Brooks
What do I want? Well, I want to gain skills that will help me improve my
writing. That is why I have not completly ruled out a MFA from my current
University, as I am sure there are things I can learn from the writers
there. But in case I leave I am trying to wring as much out of them as I
can before I move on to another school (I will be taking the "advanced"
creative writing class next semester.)
I aslo want to be able to teach and pass on what I do learn and I will be
looking on to getting a PhD sometime in the future. Don't know exactly when
or how quickly but it will happen.
I am sure there are other reasons, but it is late and I just got back from
watching _the two towers_ so I am really tired and getting ready for bed.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> "Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
> news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2...
> Well, I do actually like their writing. They are very good. I have a wide
> range of tastes. Genre fiction just happens to be my personal favorite, but
> I wish I could put together as compelling stories as they do and hope to
> learn some of that from them.
One of the other lessons I've learned from working with mentors: just
because you like their writing doesn't mean they won't have a prose
allergy to yours.
Me, I'd do the Clarion thing and then see how it worked.
I just thought of it when Clarion wasn't a possibility for me. I went this
year and it was great. And you'd have Nalo Hopkinson too.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> "Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
> news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2...
> > True. However, some of us hope that we'll be able to teach and perhaps
> > allow other people's genre fiction writing dreams to become reality.
> >
> That would be part of my goal in getting my masters. I also want to gain
> the skills that will improve my writing. And in the end a PhD is not out of
> the question.
Yep, for me too.
Aren't we sad?
Nalo Hopkinson
newsgroups--more postings than I can deal with--but the Seton Hill U.
thread caught my eye (and Deirdre's been handling responses most
excellently). I just wanted to make a point and then run away again: an
MA in Creative Writing will not qualify you to teach. An MFA will,
because it's considered a "terminal" degree, meaning that if you have
one, you don't need to get a phD in order to teach. The Seton Hill U.
Master's Degree in Writing Popular Fiction is an MA, not an MFA. SHU
can hire me as a casual sessional mentor to supervise the writing
projects of a few students, but it cannot hire me as faculty. There are
two types of instructors in the Writing Popular Fiction programme: the
mentors and the faculty. There are, by my count, only three faculty
instructors. The faculty lecturers are the ones who have phD's or
MFA's. They are the ones who have permanent jobs with SHU, and all the
benefits that accrue to that position. They are the ones who get to
make the decisions about what courses there will be, and what the course
content is. They are the ones who can potentially get tenure. The rest
of us are casual, temporary employees. Since I obtained my own Master's
degree from SHU last year, I've been checking out other universities,
and none of them would be able to hire me as a faculty instructor
either. Which is probably just as well, because the focus of the SHU
Master's Degree in Writing Popular Fiction is not on teaching, but on
building skills for becoming a working freelance writer. The WPF
programme does not teach you how to teach. The sum total of teaching
that you do as a grad student in the programme is to lead a one-hour
workshop in your final residency. I can and do teach casual continuing
ed. courses through universities, but those are not jobs that pay a
living wage, and they're mostly non-degree programmes. It's a bit of a
catch-22, really. You need the MFA in order to teach SF writing, but
you can only get the MFA if you're willing to write non-genre fiction.
-nalo
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
> NH: De-cloaking here for a minute. I don't normally read in the rec.sf
> newsgroups--more postings than I can deal with--but the Seton Hill U.
> thread caught my eye (and Deirdre's been handling responses most
> excellently). I just wanted to make a point and then run away again: an
> MA in Creative Writing will not qualify you to teach. An MFA will,
> because it's considered a "terminal" degree, meaning that if you have
> one, you don't need to get a phD in order to teach.
Big distinction: an MA will allow you to teach, but not in certain
positions in a university, including those with tenure.
I'm much more interested in the community college environment, in which
even a BA will sometimes suffice. In fact, even though I haven't completed
an MA, I've got enough graduate units to qualify without prior teaching
experience. In community colleges, an MA is sufficient for tenure.
This may be a Canadian vs. US distinction though.
There are not many MA -> MFA programs in the world, but this one (not a
distance learning program) looks promising:
http://www.newcollege.edu/writingma/Default.htm
I have spoken to the faculty and they are more open to genre fiction than most.
Or you can get a Ph.D. and skip the entire genre issue.
The Union Institute (http://www.tui.edu) is a good example: pick a field
faculty with a Ph.D. to work with. Someone who got a Ph.D. in the field,
like, oh, Kim Stanley Robinson.
Or, study at an accredited Australian university and get a Ph.D. or a D.C.A.:
http://www.uow.edu.au/discover/courses/yr2003/fac_PgCA.html (requires an
annual visit, but is open to speculative fiction)
Or a South African University for a D Litt et Phil:
http://www.unisa.ac.za/study/postg/english/engmdi.html (also open to spec
fic last time I asked)
Lucinda Welenc
>
> In article <Xns92E9DDF9680...@209.98.13.60>, Dan Goodman
> <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
> > dei...@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) wrote in
> > news:deirdre-1912...@10.0.1.2:
> >
> > > True. But as many genre writers who otherwise learn well in classes
> > > have found out, if they want to learn writing, it's hard to do it in a
> > > group that sneers at anything not litfic.
> >
> > It's my suspicion that those classes mostly aren't good for writing
> > litfic, either.
>
> Quite probably so.
>
> Ironies abound.
I wrote several SF short stories and began a novel in high school; then
my creative writing teacher said that SF was silly, childish, and a
waste of time. Those who wrote it were unimaginative hacks who couldn't
write anything better. One should write _LITERATURE_, and she would
accept no less.
It took me 20 years to get back to writing again.
--
Alanna
**********
Saying of the day:
Even the smallest candle burns brighter in the dark.
Sunday
realize it was only an MA. But it still does not disqualify the program for
me, because I could still teach in non-university levels (highschool etc.)
and as I said an ultimate goal for me would be to get a PhD. That is a good
ways off though.
--
Albert
"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks." --Robert Heinlein
"Nalo Hopkinson" <na...@web.ca> wrote in message
news:3E030866...@web.ca...
Sunday
news:3E033616...@cablespeed.com...
fantasy tale) my teacher came to me and actually encouraged me to write
more. And to even stick with genre writing. I guess he saw something in my
writing, maybe not, but it did alot to boost my ego. I was a fairly
introverted teen. I was lucky to have a teacher that accepted and
encouraged my writing.
Sunday
writing, but
> you can only get the MFA if you're willing to write non-genre fiction.
>
> -nalo
>
such a bias about genre fiction? It does not seem to be the case in the
past and people seemed to move readily from the fantastic to the realistic
without any problems. Look at the stories that Poe wrote, yet he is
accepted as literature. Some of the writing of Tennyson ("the lady of
Shallot" "Morte de Arthur"), Robert Browning ("Childe Roland to the Dark
Tower Came"), Mary Shelley (_Frankenstein_ "Transformation"), and others
could be considered fanatasy. So, just where did this bias come from?
Myself, I am open to anything as long as it is entertaining and possibly
informative or enlightening. And you could find that in genre fiction just
as well as litfic.
Boudewijn Rempt
>>
> After I had turned in my first short story in highschool (Some sort of
> fantasy tale) my teacher came to me and actually encouraged me to write
> more. And to even stick with genre writing. I guess he saw something in
> my
> writing, maybe not, but it did alot to boost my ego. I was a fairly
> introverted teen. I was lucky to have a teacher that accepted and
> encouraged my writing.
Whereas we (all the people in my form) were told that we shouldn't ever dare
to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a quite
famous Dutch literary author).
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
I was writing SF stories in elementary school, but I had a teacher who
doted shamfully on me. Creative writing was not supposed to happen in
high school, both lower and higher; and I suspect our professors there
would have fallen to their knees weeping in joy if they knew any of us
was _spontaneously_ writing something. Or even reading something.
Anything. As for creative writing in university, the notion is
absolutely alien.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
>> Sunday wrote:
>> > After I had turned in my first short story in highschool (Some sort of
>> > fantasy tale) my teacher came to me and actually encouraged me to write
>> > more. And to even stick with genre writing.
>>
>> to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a quite
>> famous Dutch literary author).
>
>I was writing SF stories in elementary school, but I had a teacher who
>doted shamfully on me. Creative writing was not supposed to happen in
Well, I can remember a high school English teacher who wanted me
to write, but he wanted me to write *essays*. And he loathed
science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
fiction. (This is the same teacher, by the way, who awarded the
top prize in the school's annual literary magazine to a fantasy
story that had been ripped out of _Fantastic_ or maybe it was
_Amazing_. Fortunately, I had the issue at home and brought it
in....)
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <1fni72q.gg98hgor8szgN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Sunday wrote: > After I had turned in my first short story in
> >> highschool (Some sort of > fantasy tale) my teacher came to me and
> >> actually encouraged me to write > more. And to even stick with genre
> >> writing.
> >>
> >> Whereas we (all the people in my form) were told that we shouldn't ever
> >> dare to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a
> >> quite famous Dutch literary author).
> >
> >I was writing SF stories in elementary school, but I had a teacher who
> >doted shamfully on me. Creative writing was not supposed to happen in
> >high school, both lower and higher....
>
> Well, I can remember a high school English teacher who wanted me
> to write, but he wanted me to write *essays*.
Oh, yes. Essay writing is a *big* part of literature teaching. I
actually liked it, but most people hated it with a passion. You were
given a title, or later on, typically three or four, and were expected
to write for a couple of hours about them. I guess the typical length
would be 1500 words.
> And he loathed
> science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
> fiction. (This is the same teacher, by the way, who awarded the
> top prize in the school's annual literary magazine to a fantasy
> story that had been ripped out of _Fantastic_ or maybe it was
> _Amazing_. Fortunately, I had the issue at home and brought it
> in....)
Oh, I did do that but I would have needed to introduce serious literary
criticism and/or philosophy. It's not easy when you're fifteen.
Boudewijn Rempt
> Well, I can remember a high school English teacher who wanted me
> to write, but he wanted me to write *essays*.
Writing essays was part of the curriculum -- we had to do about three a
year. But fiction wasn't -- and it wasn't just not part of what we did at
school, it was also something we weren't supposed to do at home or
anywhere. Perhaps the language teachers were afraid of getting dumped
in the same ghetto as the arts/PE teachers. (Arts and PE being both
non-intellectual, and therefore not real subjects.)
> And he loathed
> science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
> fiction. (This is the same teacher, by the way, who awarded the
> top prize in the school's annual literary magazine to a fantasy
> story that had been ripped out of _Fantastic_ or maybe it was
> _Amazing_. Fortunately, I had the issue at home and brought it
> in....)
>
I would have loved to be present :-).
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> And he loathed
>> science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
>> fiction.
>
>criticism and/or philosophy. It's not easy when you're fifteen.
If I had it all to do over again, I would not bother trying to
stuff SF down his unwilling throat, I would have written all my
essays about nothing but Mark Twain. (It was supposed to be a
course on great American literature, see, which to him meant
Thoreau and Emerson and, if you HAD to read fiction, Willa Cather
gag spit.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> (This is the same teacher, by the way, who awarded the
>> top prize in the school's annual literary magazine to a fantasy
>> story that had been ripped out of _Fantastic_ or maybe it was
>> _Amazing_. Fortunately, I had the issue at home and brought it
>> in....)
>
>I would have loved to be present :-).
Well, there wasn't much to be present at; the denouement was kept
low-key. There was an announcement over the school's PA system
(the daily announcements were an important feature of that
school's existence) announcing that the magazine was out but
that, unfortunately, one of the stories in it was not original.
And I heard via the grapevine that the perp got expelled from the
Boy Scouts over this little incident. I hope he also flunked
English, but I never found out.
(I can still remember, though, showing the original and the copy
to my father and his indignant shout of "That's PLAGIARISM!!!!"
As if I would not have known this without his telling me so.)
Later on, in junior college, I discovered an acquaintance (a
truly loathesome fellow) was just about to submit William
Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily" to his English class under his own
name but with title unchanged. I didn't say a word, not a word,
I figured he deserved to get what I hope he got.
David Friedman
than a lot of these posts--and the information they are based on--imply.
If people in your field think you are sufficiently good, academic
credentials become less important.
I have taught, at the undergraduate and graduate level, in both law and
economics. I have no degrees in either field--indeed, have never taken a
course for credit in either field. I do have a PhD, but it is in an
unrelated field.
I am reasonably sure that Gordon Tullock, who is an unconventional but
fairly well known economist (he coauthored a book which is one of the
things the other author got a Nobel prize for), has no PhD in anything,
unless he has an honorary one at this point. There are other examples.
It isn't the norm, but it happens.
Getting back to writing, my guess is that if you write a sufficiently
successful novel you can get hired in some high status position by some
university, whatever degrees you do or don't have.
Neil Barnes
news:H7FKB...@kithrup.com:
> Well, I can remember a high school English teacher who wanted
> me to write, but he wanted me to write *essays*.
It wasn't the fact of writing essays that bugged me, but the fact
that we were never taught *how* to write one. From the stuff that
daughter churns out and waves under my nose, after four years at
university, it's still not taught...
--
Neil
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is the same name at ntlworld com.
Neile Graham
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>Getting back to writing, my guess is that if you write a sufficiently
>successful novel you can get hired in some high status position by some
>university, whatever degrees you do or don't have.
You can get hired as a visiting writer but few places will hire you in a
permanent position, unless they have a special chair or such that they can
get away with not using the regular academic credentials for hiring.
(My authority on this subject is somewhat objective, having worked in as
academic staff for 20 years, and also having an MFA in writing for the
same amount of time and so keeping a casual eye on hiring patterns in the
writing field.)
--Neile
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ne...@drizzle.com / ne...@sff.net......http://www.sff.net/people/neile
The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ......... http://www.ectoguide.org
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Writing essays was part of the curriculum -- we had to do about three a
> year. But fiction wasn't -- and it wasn't just not part of what we did at
> school, it was also something we weren't supposed to do at home or
> anywhere.
Boggle. Nobody ever suggested to us that we shouldn't do fiction. I have
to say that our professors probably never thought about it in the first
place. But, well, the subject simply never arised. I would have
probably thought - and said - that it was none of their bloody business
what I chose to do with my free time. I certainly never mentioned to
anybody at school that I wrote. Well, I only entrusted this to a few
very select friends. My parents knew nothing about it.
Tim S
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:H7FKB...@kithrup.com:
>
>
>> Well, I can remember a high school English teacher who wanted
>> me to write, but he wanted me to write *essays*.
>
> It wasn't the fact of writing essays that bugged me, but the fact
> that we were never taught *how* to write one. From the stuff that
> daughter churns out and waves under my nose, after four years at
> university, it's still not taught...
Hmm, yes, it was the history and biology teachers at school who taught us
how to write essays, not the English department.
Tim
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> One point worth mentioning is that the academic system is less rigid
> than a lot of these posts--and the information they are based on--imply.
> If people in your field think you are sufficiently good, academic
> credentials become less important.
Right, but then they have to ensure that their behinds are covered for the
process of accreditation.
> I have taught, at the undergraduate and graduate level, in both law and
> economics. I have no degrees in either field--indeed, have never taken a
> course for credit in either field. I do have a PhD, but it is in an
> unrelated field.
But, academically, that's enough.
> I am reasonably sure that Gordon Tullock, who is an unconventional but
> fairly well known economist (he coauthored a book which is one of the
> things the other author got a Nobel prize for), has no PhD in anything,
> unless he has an honorary one at this point. There are other examples.
> It isn't the norm, but it happens.
Exactly.
And, quite frankly, Nalo brings a lot to the program:
1) She's been getting major awards and shows no signs of stopping;
2) She has an M.A. from Seton Hill and that's double-plus-good;
3) She adds diversity.
Plus she's just wicked cool.
> Getting back to writing, my guess is that if you write a sufficiently
> successful novel you can get hired in some high status position by some
> university, whatever degrees you do or don't have.
Not successful in the way you think.
For the program I'm in, awards in the genre are probably sufficient. Or
being local and sufficiently successful. For example, one mentor hasn't
published a lot of SF, but is very nuturing to new writers and has a
Master's in a different field.
But "successful" for a traditional program might mean a Nobel prize, a
Pulitzer, or something like that. Most assuredly it wouldn't mean sales
figures.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
(Deirdre Saoirse Moen) wrote:
> There are not many MA -> MFA programs in the world, but this one (not a
> distance learning program) looks promising:
>
> http://www.newcollege.edu/writingma/Default.htm
I found another, also not distance learning, also in San Francisco:
http://www.sfsu.edu/~cwriting/program.html#mfa (bottom paragraph of body)
Yay for me: a state school with low tuition for me. :)
So there must be more out there.
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>place. But, well, the subject simply never arised. I would have
Correcting-to-be-polite: arose.
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
albe...@comcast.netnospam (Sunday) wrote:
That's one cool film, but it left me feeling as if I'd run a marathon
(pursued by orcs); bed was very welcome, also. :)
I notice that one of the words not used in the above is 'publication'. Is
that a slip, or deliberate? And either way, is it significant?
This is doubtless my own preconceptions, but having read your first
paragraph about improving writing skills, I was more than slightly
disconcerted when the next thing mentioned was wanting to teach. And you
don't mention finishing a book, or sending it to a publisher, or anything
down that particular road. (Which is not the only road, by any means, but
tends to be the one I think of first.)
I don't know if this is a judgement about how well or not writing can
support a person financially, or whether teaching is your primary goal in
learning to write. I'd find that odd. Part of serving the story, to me,
is trying to get the story out to as many readers as possible, which means
publication.
I wish I could unearth my copy of Connolly's ENEMIES OF PROMISE -- he
assumes, also, that the ultimate end of writing is to be a career writer
(which I know not everybody agrees with). I don't think the academic
world was one of his ivy-plants that creep up and strangle the young
writer, but that's possibly because the academic world wasn't so prevalent
in that sense when he was writing. I can easily see how teaching could
become less an adjunct, and more an excuse -- not that I'm suggesting this
is what you're going to do, in the slightest! It's just the logical end
of that train of thought.
Out of interest, when you thought about improving writing skills, what was
it that pointed you at the academic world? Is it a cultural difference --
the US supports more such courses, therefore they're seen as a more usual
way of doing things?
I ask because writing is one of the few remaining careers where you
could leave school at fourteen or fifteen, if you have an adequate grasp
of the language, and succeed as a writer without ever needing to touch
formal education again. How and where one improves skills are pretty much
a matter of individual choice.
Mary
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> I notice that one of the words not used in the above is 'publication'. Is
> that a slip, or deliberate? And either way, is it significant?
Not if the original poster truly wants an MFA. The more obscure the
journal it seems, the more respected it is. ;)
MFAs aren't about making publishable work. They're about creating a
self-perpetuating homogenization of tastes.
There are exceptions. I know people who could go through MFA programs
writing spec fic as long as they never admitted it.
> Out of interest, when you thought about improving writing skills, what was
> it that pointed you at the academic world? Is it a cultural difference --
> the US supports more such courses, therefore they're seen as a more usual
> way of doing things?
One of the wonders of academic life is being able to focus solely on one's
passions.
Sunday
<mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message
news:au0a05$6sh$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
Oh, well...I thought that was obvious. Of course I want to be published
some day. Teaching would be a secondary goal. I really, honestly, thought
publication went without saying. If I didn't want to be published I
wouldn't even bother with considering an MA in creative writing or MFA, but
now that you mention it I am sure there might be those out there that write
without ever intending to get published. I am just not one of them.
> Out of interest, when you thought about improving writing skills, what was
> it that pointed you at the academic world? Is it a cultural difference --
> the US supports more such courses, therefore they're seen as a more usual
> way of doing things?
Part of what pointed me at the acedemic world is my own goals. I started on
the path towards my degree over 10 years ago. Due to stubbornness on my
part (didn't want loans to get through school and my parents couldn't pay
for it) I stopped going for about 8 years. But since getting my degrees has
always been a goal I went back, now I want my masters. I enjoy learning and
seem to learn better from the discussions I get through coursework than I do
from just reading.
So, I guess in the end it is me setting goals for myself that I desire to
accomplish. I don't know if it is a more usual way of doing things here in
the U.S., because when people ask me what I'm majoring in and I tell them
English I get the oddest looks. It never fails. And the first response is,
oh so you must want to be a teacher. I would prefer writer, but teaching is
also on the bill.
>
> I ask because writing is one of the few remaining careers where you
> could leave school at fourteen or fifteen, if you have an adequate grasp
> of the language, and succeed as a writer without ever needing to touch
> formal education again. How and where one improves skills are pretty much
> a matter of individual choice.
>
> Mary
True enough, but for me I tend to learn better by discussing how and why
something works than I would by just reading someone's book about why and
how something works. My seeking these degrees has more to do with my own
personal goals than anything and the fact that I can learn something that
will help me with a career as a writer is just a bonus.
Sunday
"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
news:deirdre-2012...@10.0.1.2...
> In article <au0a05$6sh$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk>,
> mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
> > I notice that one of the words not used in the above is 'publication'.
Is
> > that a slip, or deliberate? And either way, is it significant?
>
> Not if the original poster truly wants an MFA. The more obscure the
> journal it seems, the more respected it is. ;)
>
> MFAs aren't about making publishable work. They're about creating a
> self-perpetuating homogenization of tastes.
>
> There are exceptions. I know people who could go through MFA programs
> writing spec fic as long as they never admitted it.
>
> > Out of interest, when you thought about improving writing skills, what
was
> > it that pointed you at the academic world? Is it a cultural
difference --
> > the US supports more such courses, therefore they're seen as a more
usual
> > way of doing things?
>
> One of the wonders of academic life is being able to focus solely on one's
> passions.
>
Too true, now that you mention it that is another reason that I enjoy it. I
get to concetrate on the things I love more.
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
albe...@comcast.netnospam (Sunday) wrote:
>
>
>
> <mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:au0a05$6sh$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
[...]
> > This is doubtless my own preconceptions, but having read your first
> > paragraph about improving writing skills, I was more than slightly
> > disconcerted when the next thing mentioned was wanting to teach. And
> > you
> > don't mention finishing a book, or sending it to a publisher, or
> > anything
> > down that particular road. (Which is not the only road, by any
> > means, but
> > tends to be the one I think of first.)
> >
> > I don't know if this is a judgement about how well or not writing can
> > support a person financially, or whether teaching is your primary
> > goal in
> > learning to write. I'd find that odd. Part of serving the story, to
> > me,
> > is trying to get the story out to as many readers as possible, which
> > means
> > publication.
> >
>
> Oh, well...I thought that was obvious.
It is and it isn't. Writing can be enjoyable in and of itself;
therefore I guess it's not surprising there are people who just like to do
that.
>Of course I want to be published
> some day. Teaching would be a secondary goal. I really, honestly,
> thought
> publication went without saying.
Some people are too intimidated to submit, as well, although that didn't
quite sound like what you were thinking.
> If I didn't want to be published I
> wouldn't even bother with considering an MA in creative writing or
> MFA, but
> now that you mention it I am sure there might be those out there that
> write
> without ever intending to get published. I am just not one of them.
I was just slightly boggled at the 'writing = academia equation. There
are more creative writing Masters in the UK since the success of East
Anglia, true, but it's almost the opposite of axiomatic that a writer will
have that background. And most of the writers I know with degrees or
Masters or PhDs have them in something other than writing or English.
Just my preconceptions, therefore.
Would it be the case that an MA would give you the time to concentrate on
writing, and put you further on the road to publication?
>
> > Out of interest, when you thought about improving writing skills,
> > what was
> > it that pointed you at the academic world? Is it a cultural
> > difference --
> > the US supports more such courses, therefore they're seen as a more
> > usual
> > way of doing things?
>
> Part of what pointed me at the acedemic world is my own goals. I
> started on
> the path towards my degree over 10 years ago. Due to stubbornness on my
> part (didn't want loans to get through school and my parents couldn't
> pay
> for it) I stopped going for about 8 years. But since getting my
> degrees has
> always been a goal I went back, now I want my masters. I enjoy
> learning and
> seem to learn better from the discussions I get through coursework than
> I do
> from just reading.
Speaking as a serial educator (or possibly educatee) myself, I'm on your
side there. I've done two taught Masters, and the classroom give and take
was part of what I really enjoyed. There's only so much sitting in a
library I can do before I want to /talk/ to someone about all this stuff.
> So, I guess in the end it is me setting goals for myself that I desire
> to
> accomplish. I don't know if it is a more usual way of doing things
> here in
> the U.S., because when people ask me what I'm majoring in and I tell
> them
> English I get the oddest looks. It never fails.
That's strange.
>And the first
> response is,
> oh so you must want to be a teacher.
Which is probably the UK reaction, too.
>I would prefer writer, but
> teaching is
> also on the bill.
I have to say, if I was going to pair up a another career with a writing
career, it wouldn't be teaching -- most of the teachers I know get their
spare time eaten up by it.
> > I ask because writing is one of the few remaining careers where you
> > could leave school at fourteen or fifteen, if you have an adequate
> > grasp
> > of the language, and succeed as a writer without ever needing to touch
> > formal education again. How and where one improves skills are pretty
> > much
> > a matter of individual choice.
> >
> > Mary
>
> True enough, but for me I tend to learn better by discussing how and why
> something works than I would by just reading someone's book about why
> and
> how something works.
Although that's one way, it wouldn't be the only one either -- I have a
feeling most writers begin their learning by osmosis, while they're
reading other people's fiction, and absorbing things unconsciously.
It's one of the good things about fiction, I think; a person only needs a
knowledge of the language they're going to write in, which is usually the
one they first speak (Conrad aside :) -- it means fiction's open to a
whole spectrum of experiences, which it wouldn't be if there was only one
apprenticeship.
> My seeking these degrees has more to do with my
> own
> personal goals than anything and the fact that I can learn something
> that
> will help me with a career as a writer is just a bonus.
I'm with you with seeking degrees. <g> Mine are in other things than
English or writing, though.
Playing devil's advocate for a moment: what is it exactly about a creative
writing MA that would 'help' -- aren't they more likely to turn out
identikit writers rather than quirky individuals?
(I don't know whether this is the case or not, I'm just speculating.)
Mary
Nancy Lebovitz
Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>Whereas we (all the people in my form) were told that we shouldn't ever dare
>to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a quite
>famous Dutch literary author).
Of course, when Harry Mulisch started out, his writing wasn't as good
as Harry Mulisch's.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com 100 new slogans
I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.
Nancy Lebovitz
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <1fni9sj.1803jfxvitk36N%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And he loathed
>>> science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
>>> fiction.
>>
>>Oh, I did do that but I would have needed to introduce serious literary
>>criticism and/or philosophy. It's not easy when you're fifteen.
>
>If I had it all to do over again, I would not bother trying to
>stuff SF down his unwilling throat, I would have written all my
>essays about nothing but Mark Twain. (It was supposed to be a
>course on great American literature, see, which to him meant
>Thoreau and Emerson and, if you HAD to read fiction, Willa Cather
>gag spit.)
Perhaps you could have written about Twain's sf.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote:
>In article <H7Fn6...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <1fni9sj.1803jfxvitk36N%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>>Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And he loathed
>>>> science fiction. I retaliated by writing essays about science
>>>> fiction.
>>>
>>>Oh, I did do that but I would have needed to introduce serious literary
>>>criticism and/or philosophy. It's not easy when you're fifteen.
>>
>>If I had it all to do over again, I would not bother trying to
>>stuff SF down his unwilling throat, I would have written all my
>>essays about nothing but Mark Twain. (It was supposed to be a
>>course on great American literature, see, which to him meant
>>Thoreau and Emerson and, if you HAD to read fiction, Willa Cather
>>gag spit.)
>
>Perhaps you could have written about Twain's sf.
Bingo. Where's my time machine?
Sunday
news:au1iqh$3qk$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
<cut>
> I was just slightly boggled at the 'writing = academia equation. There
> are more creative writing Masters in the UK since the success of East
> Anglia, true, but it's almost the opposite of axiomatic that a writer will
> have that background. And most of the writers I know with degrees or
> Masters or PhDs have them in something other than writing or English.
>
> Just my preconceptions, therefore.
>
> Would it be the case that an MA would give you the time to concentrate on
> writing, and put you further on the road to publication?
>
writing. The other is just for my own sense of accomplishment.
<cut>
> > So, I guess in the end it is me setting goals for myself that I desire
> > to
> > accomplish. I don't know if it is a more usual way of doing things
> > here in
> > the U.S., because when people ask me what I'm majoring in and I tell
> > them
> > English I get the oddest looks. It never fails.
>
> That's strange.
>
odd look. I wonder if they are surprised that I can even read :).
< cut>
> Although that's one way, it wouldn't be the only one either -- I have a
> feeling most writers begin their learning by osmosis, while they're
> reading other people's fiction, and absorbing things unconsciously.
>
> It's one of the good things about fiction, I think; a person only needs a
> knowledge of the language they're going to write in, which is usually the
> one they first speak (Conrad aside :) -- it means fiction's open to a
> whole spectrum of experiences, which it wouldn't be if there was only one
> apprenticeship.
>
True. And I plan on doing my own work, but additional help and advice is
always welcome. And an MA in Creative Writing or an MFA is only one choice,
I have also been considering an MA in English lit (rhetoric). The Seton
Hill program just really caught my attention as the only program that is
offers and accepts genre fiction.
> > My seeking these degrees has more to do with my
> > own
> > personal goals than anything and the fact that I can learn something
> > that
> > will help me with a career as a writer is just a bonus.
>
> I'm with you with seeking degrees. <g> Mine are in other things than
> English or writing, though.
>
> Playing devil's advocate for a moment: what is it exactly about a creative
> writing MA that would 'help' -- aren't they more likely to turn out
> identikit writers rather than quirky individuals?
>
> (I don't know whether this is the case or not, I'm just speculating.)
>
I think they could, and that is a big problem with all such programs. But I
have faith in myself that I can learn what they have to offer while
retaining my own individuality. Yet I am not fully conviced that I
couldn't do better by getting my masters in English literature and taking a
summer off to go to Clarion West or Clarion. These are just the decisions
that I am trying to make right now.
Boudewijn Rempt
> In article <3e0355fb$0$2229$e4fe...@dreader6.news.xs4all.nl>,
> Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
>>Whereas we (all the people in my form) were told that we shouldn't ever
>>dare to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a
>>quite famous Dutch literary author).
>
> Of course, when Harry Mulisch started out, his writing wasn't as good
> as Harry Mulisch's.
I've always felt he was quite consistently horrible, but I definitely
have a non-canonical taste in books... But seriously, you are right,
but that wouldn't have cut an argument, because, in the end, it all
came back to 'our (or, more precisely, your) kind of people can't do
that).
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> I think they could, and that is a big problem with all such programs. But I
> have faith in myself that I can learn what they have to offer while
> retaining my own individuality. Yet I am not fully conviced that I
> couldn't do better by getting my masters in English literature and taking a
> summer off to go to Clarion West or Clarion. These are just the decisions
> that I am trying to make right now.
Advice I was once offered: if you want to write, write. For me, it was
good advice. Then again, I'm not one of those people who learns from the
writings of others except by using their tricks and techniques.
Now, as it happens, I've studied at least half the quals list for a Ph.D.
in lit at several universities. But that was simply a side effect, not the
goal.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
na...@unix1.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
> In article <H7Fn6...@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >If I had it all to do over again, I would not bother trying to
> >stuff SF down his unwilling throat, I would have written all my
> >essays about nothing but Mark Twain. (It was supposed to be a
> >course on great American literature, see, which to him meant
> >Thoreau and Emerson and, if you HAD to read fiction, Willa Cather
> >gag spit.)
>
> Perhaps you could have written about Twain's sf.
Might I offer, as something to offend the kind of teachers I had, the
concept of writing a critical paper about how King's _The Dead Zone_ is in
fact a classic Greek tragedy?
I think I got a D on that -- "A" for the mechanics of the paper and "F"
for the subject matter.
Dorothy J Heydt
Deirdre Saoirse Moen <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
>In article <VN%M9.115$zi2.1...@newshog.newsread.com>,
>na...@unix1.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>
>> In article <H7Fn6...@kithrup.com>,
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> >If I had it all to do over again, I would not bother trying to
>> >stuff SF down his unwilling throat, I would have written all my
>> >essays about nothing but Mark Twain. (It was supposed to be a
>> >course on great American literature, see, which to him meant
>> >Thoreau and Emerson and, if you HAD to read fiction, Willa Cather
>> >gag spit.)
>>
>> Perhaps you could have written about Twain's sf.
>
>Might I offer, as something to offend the kind of teachers I had, the
>concept of writing a critical paper about how King's _The Dead Zone_ is in
>fact a classic Greek tragedy?
Hm. I think, mind you I say I think, King is younger than I am.
Certainly he was not writing (or anyway, publishing) when I was
in high school, which was between 1955 and 1959. Also I don't
read him--I think of King as a horror writer and I dislike horror;
is _TDZ_ actually SF?--so he would not have been much of an improvement
on Willa Cather from that standpoint.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Hm. I think, mind you I say I think, King is younger than I am.
> Certainly he was not writing (or anyway, publishing) when I was
> in high school, which was between 1955 and 1959. Also I don't
> read him--I think of King as a horror writer and I dislike horror;
> is _TDZ_ actually SF?--so he would not have been much of an improvement
> on Willa Cather from that standpoint.
It's about a man who wakes up from a twenty years come with paranormal
powers, and this turns out to be very sad for him. Not really gruesome,
IIRC. One of my favourites.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
wrote:
TDZ is not horror, but it is spec fic. It could be seen as either SF or
Fantasy, depending. The series, btw, is uneven but interesting.
Marilee J. Layman
Dal Dan) wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> Hm. I think, mind you I say I think, King is younger than I am.
>> Certainly he was not writing (or anyway, publishing) when I was
>> in high school, which was between 1955 and 1959. Also I don't
>> read him--I think of King as a horror writer and I dislike horror;
>> is _TDZ_ actually SF?--so he would not have been much of an improvement
>> on Willa Cather from that standpoint.
>
>It's about a man who wakes up from a twenty years come with paranormal
>powers, and this turns out to be very sad for him. Not really gruesome,
>IIRC. One of my favourites.
The TV series is actually pretty good. I don't like King's writing
much, though, it feel clunky.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Dan Goodman
He's not exclusively a horror writer. The Dark Tower series is crosstime
opera, for example.
Katrien Rutten
Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>Whereas we (all the people in my form) were told that we shouldn't ever dare
>to write fiction until we were as good as Harry Mulisch (who's a quite
>famous Dutch literary author).
When I was ten, my teacher asked me, by way of a special assignment, to write
a book. He asked a second girl to illustrate the book.
I had a difficult time in school, and I can't tell you what
an honor this was to me. I wish I could write that teacher and tell
him, but he died when he was only about thirty years old.
(The book was dreadful, of course. As melodramatic and implausible as
anything, and about twenty pages long. But I was very proud of it, and
so was the illustrator.)
Katrien, who doesn't think much of Harry Mulisch and even less of
Boudewijn's teacher
--
Sarah: "It's not fair!"
Jareth: "You say that so often - I wonder what your basis for comparison is..."
-Labyrinth
LAFF
(Deirdre Saoirse Moen) wrote:
> In article <Xns92E9C30B77F...@209.98.13.60>, Dan Goodman
> <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
> > That aside -- I would say that Seton Hall's having only recently become a
> > University is a _plus_. They're on their way up.
>
> It's Seton _Hill_ btw. Seton Hall is also a university, but in a different
> state. They are both named after Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton.
Seton Hall is in northern New Jersey, not far from New York City.
Seton Hill is in western Pennsylvania -- just outside Greensburg, in
Westmoreland County, about 30 miles east of Pittsburgh (and about 15
miles east of where I grew up). Very pretty country, she added, being
somewhat prejudiced toward the area.
Traditionally, Seton Hill was the women's college and St. Vincent's (a
Benedictine school near Latrobe, a few miles farther east) the men's
college.
--
_
( | Lois Fundis
(*| lfu...@weir.net
( | Latitude: 40.398637 (N)
/ | Longitude: -80.599882 (W)
( |
/ |_______
/
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<lfu...@weir.net> wrote:
> Seton Hall is in northern New Jersey, not far from New York City.
> Seton Hill is in western Pennsylvania -- just outside Greensburg, in
> Westmoreland County, about 30 miles east of Pittsburgh (and about 15
> miles east of where I grew up). Very pretty country, she added, being
> somewhat prejudiced toward the area.
Yeah, it's gorgeous. I'm always glad to be back. Last summer, I threw
myself on the grass and watched the fireflies against the sky. Wonderful.
> Traditionally, Seton Hill was the women's college and St. Vincent's (a
> Benedictine school near Latrobe, a few miles farther east) the men's
> college.
Ah, I couldn't quite remember the name of the corresponding school. Thanks!
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<albe...@comcast.netnospam> wrote:
> "Nalo Hopkinson" <na...@web.ca> wrote in message
> news:3E030866...@web.ca...
> > It's a bit of a catch-22, really. You need the MFA in order to teach SF
> writing, but
> > you can only get the MFA if you're willing to write non-genre fiction.
> >
> > -nalo
> >
> You know that is something that has gotten me wondering too. Why is there
> such a bias about genre fiction? It does not seem to be the case in the
> past and people seemed to move readily from the fantastic to the realistic
> without any problems. Look at the stories that Poe wrote, yet he is
> accepted as literature. Some of the writing of Tennyson ("the lady of
> Shallot" "Morte de Arthur"), Robert Browning ("Childe Roland to the Dark
> Tower Came"), Mary Shelley (_Frankenstein_ "Transformation"), and others
> could be considered fanatasy. So, just where did this bias come from?
Sorry for the lag here, but my news server just spat 100 stale rasfc
articles it claimed I hadn't seen.
And I was about to tuck in too. ;)
So, my personal feeling: because we, as Americans, have an inferiority
complex. We have this lowbrow culture but we aspire to be more British in
some ways.
And if it was Literature before, it's not genre fiction. Just as country
and western and pop used to all be played on the same station.
> Myself, I am open to anything as long as it is entertaining and possibly
> informative or enlightening. And you could find that in genre fiction just
> as well as litfic.
I'm open to a lot of stuff too, which is why it takes me so long to get to
some genre stuff. I rotate. Right now I'm on a non-fiction binge.
Charlie Allery
Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote in message ...
But we Brits have the same problem. Current genre fiction is looked down on,
but previous 'literature' is fine. All of the above examples are not
considered to be genre, but to be classics. So it seems to be not a question
of nationality, but of time, since current British SF authors are also
'genre' not 'literature'. It seems that once enough of the SF/F type of
story was being produced for it to become its own genre, then it becomes
regarded as of lesser value. And how much the explosion of 'pulp'
contributed to this is another point which I don't know enough to address.
Charlie
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
cha...@charlieallery.demon.co.uk (Charlie Allery) wrote:
[...]
> So it seems to be not a question
> of nationality, but of time, since current British SF authors are also
> 'genre' not 'literature'
The closer you get to being dead, and having produced some
biographical/mainstream stuff, like Aldiss and Ballard, the closer you get
to being almost non-genre.
This argues that by the time writers _are_ dead, and not about to
embarrass critics by producing something pulp again, they can safely be
transferred to the mainstream.
Both critics and publishers prefer dead authors... :)
Mary
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> The closer you get to being dead, and having produced some
> biographical/mainstream stuff, like Aldiss and Ballard, the closer you get
> to being almost non-genre.
>
> This argues that by the time writers _are_ dead, and not about to
> embarrass critics by producing something pulp again, they can safely be
> transferred to the mainstream.
>
> Both critics and publishers prefer dead authors... :)
This all makes way too much sense for me.
Frighteningly so.
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Deirdre Saoirse Moen) wrote:
> In article <aukiqg$1i5$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk>,
> mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
> > The closer you get to being dead, and having produced some
> > biographical/mainstream stuff, like Aldiss and Ballard, the closer
> > you get to being almost non-genre.
> >
> > This argues that by the time writers _are_ dead, and not about to
> > embarrass critics by producing something pulp again, they can safely
> > be transferred to the mainstream.
> >
> > Both critics and publishers prefer dead authors... :)
>
> This all makes way too much sense for me.
>
> Frighteningly so.
You don't have to pay royalties to dead authors, and sometimes not to
their estate; they don't complain about covers, or bitch about the sales
force, or get drunk at cons and embarrass you, or pout because they
haven't won the Booker.
And they're not _much_ worse at meeting deadlines than live authors.
Mary
Dan Goodman
@thorium.cix.co.uk:
At least one story here: a horror writer's ghost showing up at his/her
editor's office.