Men's Hour Books
Dr Ridley-Duff
Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
I met the founder recently and he's trying to do for men what
publishers like Free Press and Virago did for women in the 1970s (i.e.
give those silenced by mainstream publishing a voice on gender issues).
All the best
Rory
Dorothy J Heydt
But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Wilson Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
>Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
Wouldn't it be simpler 9and more up to date at any given time)
to simply *ask* a woman?
>I met the founder recently
Why do I have a sudden suspicion that the poster *is* the
founder...?
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Michelle Bottorff
> Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
> seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
> Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
> and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
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Dorothy J Heydt
>In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
>>seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
>>Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>>and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
>
>to simply *ask* a woman?
Oh, you've misinterpreted the word "question". He doesn't want
to ask a woman (or a lot of women) what they think. He wants to
ask, "What is all this feminist nonsense about, and when will Men
regain their Proper Place in Life as Lords of Creation?"
(Now I'm thinking of that glorious moment in _Pleasantville_ when
the hero says to the traditionalist mayor, "Any minute now, you
could have women going out to work, while the men stayed home and
cooked!" and the mayor turns quite pink with rage. [Having been
strictly black-and-white up to that moment.])
>
>>I met the founder recently
>
>Why do I have a sudden suspicion that the poster *is* the
>founder...?
I will not take that bet.
Wilson Heydt
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <J4vqt...@kithrup.com>, Wilson Heydt <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>>Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
>>>seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
>>>Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>>>and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
>>
>>Wouldn't it be simpler (and more up to date at any given time)
>>to simply *ask* a woman?
>
>Oh, you've misinterpreted the word "question". He doesn't want
>to ask a woman (or a lot of women) what they think. He wants to
>ask, "What is all this feminist nonsense about, and when will Men
>regain their Proper Place in Life as Lords of Creation?"
/shrug My background is in Engineering. If that's what he
wants to deal with, then he should say it. (And, of course,
get slapped down hard for presuming it'll fly.)
Dr Ridley-Duff
Dr Ridley-Duff
I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!). Given that my writing
has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
probably worries over market size).
Every time I felt the same problem - even from some academic publishers
for other work. Nobody wants to touch a book that examines men's
experience of sex discrimination for fear of unravelling what has
become presumed 'truth' over the last 40 years. Raymond Cuttill is
open-minded on this. It was interesting that he started up a
publishing company to help a *woman* write about men's issues. Surely
worth a post in this forum :)
Honestly, what publisher has to advertise for authors? Get real.
Rory
Mary K. Kuhner
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>What is SF/F?
Science fiction and fantasy.
The newsgroup you posted to is rec.arts.sf.composition, designed
for discussions of how to write science fiction and fantasy. Unless
you are offering a paying market for one or both of those, you're
posting in the wrong place. Try misc.writing instead (but check
their ads policy first as ads may be unwelcome).
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Mary K. Kuhner
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
>authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
>novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
>success.
Did you really approach them with ideas for novels?
Every single guideline I've seen says that fiction from new authors
will not be considered unless finished. While nonfiction can be sold
on proposal, fiction cannot until you have already published several
novels.
This makes sense, as having an idea for a novel is much easier than
writing a good one--in particular, endings are tough. I've started
seven novels and only finished three. If anyone had offered me money
for the other four they would have been sadly disappointed.
They *are* offering you money, right? Not the other way around?
Because if not, you are probably better off self-publishing.
Lulu.com is a reputable self-publishing firm.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Dr Ridley-Duff
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >Wouldn't it be simpler (and more up to date at any given time)
> >to simply *ask* a woman?
> Oh, you've misinterpreted the word "question". He doesn't want
> to ask a woman (or a lot of women) what they think. He wants to
> ask, "What is all this feminist nonsense about, and when will Men
> regain their Proper Place in Life as Lords of Creation?"
I have asked loads of women for years about this subject (during my
Phd). Before that I was a team leader for one of the most politically
correct worker co-ops in London. We had exemplary equal opportunity
practices and I worked side-by-side with feminist activitists for most
of my working life. Go to my website (www.roryridleyduff.com) and look
at the introduction to Emotion, Seduction and Intimacy and you will see
the foreword has been written by Dr Poonam Thapa - a feminist activist
for 30 years.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are so quick to stereotype me?
> (Now I'm thinking of that glorious moment in _Pleasantville_ when
> the hero says to the traditionalist mayor, "Any minute now, you
> could have women going out to work, while the men stayed home and
> cooked!" and the mayor turns quite pink with rage. [Having been
> strictly black-and-white up to that moment.])
I stay at home and look after the kids (while pursuing a writing and
university lecturing career). My wife goes out to work 3 days a week
and works from home two days a week. Suits us - and the children -
very well. I even cook (but not as much as my wife, Caroline).
Perhaps you should not judge so quickly those men that are trying to
take forward (rather than backward) the idea of gender *equality*.
Maybe they have something interesting to say on the subject. Or is
this idea just too unsettling for you?
Rory
Dr Ridley-Duff
governance (new life).
Wilson Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>What is SF/F?
A: It makes the threads hard to follow.
Q: Why is top posting discouraged?
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>> Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
>> >seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
>> >Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>> >and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
>> But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
Well.... That depends on whther you're asking for a
definition, in which case the answer is "Science
Fiction/Fantasy", or if you're asking if a world without
feminism is SF/F, to which the answer would be 'fantasy at
best, but probably just wishful thinking for guys who don't
really think women are actually people'.
I'll let you pick which you meant, but there are plenty of
writers here who can point out the problems with ambiguous
statements at great length, persuasiveness and a good deal of
humor. You have been warned.
Wilson Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
>authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
>novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
>success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!). Given that my writing
>has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
>'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
>probably worries over market size).
only 18 months? You sure give up easily. Is shilling for the
publisher part of the deal you cut?
>Honestly, what publisher has to advertise for authors? Get real.
Legitimate ones don't, but there are plenty of others out
there that do.
Dr Ridley-Duff
Whoops - I have posted to the wrong forum! I thought this was for
general 'composition'. I'm not advertising. I've sharing the
experiences of an author who finally found a publisher willing to
tackle issues other publishers won't take on. That's relevant to
people on here (or would have been if I'd got the right forum).
Anyway - enough said. I'll try the other forum.
Best wishes
Rory
Helen Hall
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
>In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then
>> might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>>and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
>>
>>I met the founder recently and he's trying to do for men what
>>publishers like Free Press and Virago did for women in the 1970s (i.e.
>>give those silenced by mainstream publishing a voice on gender issues).
>
>But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
>
somehow oppressed.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Dr Ridley-Duff
Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
> In article <1157060802.0...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
> >authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
> >novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
> >success.
>
> Did you really approach them with ideas for novels?
I had one complete novel and ideas for two others. I had one complete
non-fiction book and two others almost complete. Still no dice.
Agent/publishers always ask for the first three chapters so I wondered
what the point was in writing any more until they were interested in
the first three. Maybe that is not the right approach, but it seemed
sensible after all the difficulties getting anyone to read the
completed novel.
> Every single guideline I've seen says that fiction from new authors
> will not be considered unless finished. While nonfiction can be sold
> on proposal, fiction cannot until you have already published several
> novels.
Pain isn't it!
> This makes sense, as having an idea for a novel is much easier than
> writing a good one--in particular, endings are tough. I've started
> seven novels and only finished three. If anyone had offered me money
> for the other four they would have been sadly disappointed.
Ah! But if they had, what inspiration you might have found :)
> They *are* offering you money, right? Not the other way around?
> Because if not, you are probably better off self-publishing.
> Lulu.com is a reputable self-publishing firm.
The receipts will be split 50/50 after production costs. We'll be
using a Print-on-Demand supplier in the South of England. They stump
up the print setup costs. I do all the leg work with the marketing.
Hope it works out.
Thanks for Lulu.com (are they in the UK? I'll check). I am planning
to self-publish other books to compare the experience of working with a
publisher and self-publishing.
Best wishes
Rory
www.roryridleyduff.com
> Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Dr Ridley-Duff
Wilson Heydt wrote:
> In article <1157060802.0...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
> >authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
> >novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
> >success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!). Given that my writing
> >has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
> >'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
> >probably worries over market size).
>
> only 18 months? You sure give up easily. Is shilling for the
> publisher part of the deal you cut?
I didn't give up, I got lucky and found a publisher....
> >Honestly, what publisher has to advertise for authors? Get real.
>
> Legitimate ones don't, but there are plenty of others out
> there that do.
Yes, I had dealings with a 'publisher' that wanted £1000 from me
before he would meet. The bullshit was so thick I thought I'd have to
disinfect the phone after he rang off.
That'll be one to tell the grandkids one day!
Rory
Dorothy J Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>What is SF/F?
Science fiction/fantasy.
That's what this newsgroup is about: the writing (hence,
"composition" -- we don't write music) of science fiction and
fantasy, sometimes lumped together as "speculative fiction."
Helen Hall
Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>
>I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
>authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
>novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
>success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! You gave up after 18 *months*? You really don't have a
clue about writing and selling fiction, do you?
>Given that my writing
>has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
>'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
>probably worries over market size).
>
Writing non-fiction and writing fiction involve overlapping but
substantially different skills. Being successful as a non-fiction writer
does not lead, necessarily, to success as a fiction writer. Publishers
are, justifiably, concerned about market size because they're not
charities, they're businesses and have to make a profit to stay in
business. My novel (see .sig) was ultimately rejected (despite being
agented) because the publisher reckoned that it would be mid-list and
wouldn't sell enough copies. So I have to write more books and do it
better, that's the only solution to the problem.
If you want to come here to talk about writing speculative fiction, that
is SF or fantasy, then you are welcome. Your adverts, whatever they're
for, break the terms of our charter and are most *unwelcome*.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
_Legacies of War_, a fantasy murder mystery, now on the web at:
http://helenkenyon.livejournal.com/413.html
Dr Ridley-Duff
Helen Hall wrote:
> >But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
> >
> Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
> somehow oppressed.
>
> Helen
Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance......if you really
want to lock horns on who is more oppressed then I can debate gender
issues not just until the cows come home, but have also had a wander
around the paddock several times waiting for our interminable nattering
to finish....
I don't really care for the 'my world is worse than yours' debate. I
prefer the 'how can we make a better world together' debate.
Still, given your ill-considered jibe, have one back. When men don't
dominate 24 or the 25 worst occupations (Job Rated Almanac - Krantz,
2002) and don't account for 92% of all workplace deaths (Why Men Earn
More - Farrell, 2005), perhaps we'll be making progress towards
equality... :)
Rory
James Nicoll
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>What is SF/F?
>
If you don't know, why are you here? Aside from being a spamming
shill, I mean.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Dr Ridley-Duff
Helen Hall wrote:
> In message <1157060802.0...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, Dr
> Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
> >
> >I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
> >authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
> >novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
> >success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
>
> Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! You gave up after 18 *months*? You really don't have a
> clue about writing and selling fiction, do you?
I gave up on agents, not publishers. I obviously don't have a clue -
that's why I've just agreed terms for a contract. Could all go pair
shaped - I imagine others have been there and found things don't work
out.
> >Given that my writing
> >has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
> >'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
> >probably worries over market size).
> >
> Writing non-fiction and writing fiction involve overlapping but
> substantially different skills. Being successful as a non-fiction writer
> does not lead, necessarily, to success as a fiction writer. Publishers
> are, justifiably, concerned about market size because they're not
> charities, they're businesses and have to make a profit to stay in
> business.
Yes, I've run several business and write business books so spare me the
kindegarten lecture.
> My novel (see .sig) was ultimately rejected (despite being
> agented) because the publisher reckoned that it would be mid-list and
> wouldn't sell enough copies. So I have to write more books and do it
> better, that's the only solution to the problem.
I'm an anthropologist by trade - all that stuff publishers make authors
go through is (culturally speaking) a) to socialise the author into
doing exactly what the publisher wants; b) to erect barriers to keep
authors at bay.
There is another option - take a chance and risk self-publishing. Some
publishers may know the market, but culture is a wierd thing and even
publishers (both music and writing) have their own ivory towers and
miss what is going on, and what the wider public will like. Good
writing matters - must do - but marketing nous and luck also play a
huge role (well, they do in other business areas so they must do in
publishing too).
> If you want to come here to talk about writing speculative fiction, that
> is SF or fantasy, then you are welcome. Your adverts, whatever they're
> for, break the terms of our charter and are most *unwelcome*.
>
> Helen
What advert is that? Is this not a forum where writers help other
writers? What's your problem?
Rory
Dr Ridley-Duff
Yes, I'm new here. Spend much more time in the philosophy, mens and
women's issues forums. However, I did post here a while back and
received some replies when I started sending stuff out. People seemed
supportive when people started the long hard struggle to find a publish
which is why I returned to mention eventual success.
Apologies for apparently breaking your rules.
All the best
Rory
Michelle Bottorff
> INearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
Why does this not impress me much?
Will in New Haven
Yeah, they have CATS there.
Will and Bear (the d*g) in New Haven
--
"Win the easy hands. Loud, noisy confrontations are for d-gs."
_Poker for Cats_ by Feather
Will in New Haven
Dr Ridley-Duff wrote:
> Wilson,
>
> I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
> authors. I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
> novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
> success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!). Given that my writing
> has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
> 'quality of writing' issue
It certainly COULD be. I work for a publisher that produces the leading
textbooks in several areas of biology. All of our authors are widely
praised for their writing style and they do write very good textbook
copy. They also write very good journal articles and display similar
skills in their informal correspondance with those of us who makret and
edit their work. One of them, maybe, could write a novel. I doubt that
anyone else who deals with them even thinks about it but I think that
the guy who wrote our most recent new book could, if he were motivated
to do so, could write a novel.
- it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
> probably worries over market size).
I could insert a list here of unlikely books that have been published
that would prove you wrong but why bother. I am not saying that you
have nothing to offfer. But some of your statements here don't fly.
Will in New Haven
--
"Win the easy hands. Loud, noisy confrontations are for d-gs."
_Poker for Cats_ by Feather
>
> Every time I felt the same problem - even from some academic publishers
> for other work. Nobody wants to touch a book that examines men's
> experience of sex discrimination for fear of unravelling what has
> become presumed 'truth' over the last 40 years. Raymond Cuttill is
> open-minded on this. It was interesting that he started up a
> publishing company to help a *woman* write about men's issues. Surely
> worth a post in this forum :)
>
> Honestly, what publisher has to advertise for authors? Get real.
>
> Rory
>
> www.roryridleyduff.com
>
>
> Wilson Heydt wrote:
> > In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> > Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
> > >seeking to question feministpresumptions on gender issues, then Men's
lclough
> In article <1157054074.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
>>seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
>>Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
>>and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
>>
>>I met the founder recently and he's trying to do for men what
>>publishers like Free Press and Virago did for women in the 1970s (i.e.
>>give those silenced by mainstream publishing a voice on gender issues).
>
>
> But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
>
Perhaps it's fantasy. Nothing to do with the real world, you know?
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
S. Palmer
> Helen Hall wrote:
>
> > >But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
> > >
> > Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
> > somehow oppressed.
> >
> > Helen
>
> Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance......if you really
> want to lock horns on who is more oppressed
Hahahahahahahah! Wow. A spammer *and* a troll.
Like flaming dog poo in a baggie set on our front doorstep, I think we
all ought to be able to avoid stepping in this one...
-Suzanne
Marilee J. Layman
<roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books?
Heeeee Men's Hour Books? Hahahahahaha
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Alma Hromic Deckert
On 31 Aug 2006 14:39:29 -0700, "Dr Ridley-Duff"
<roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>What is SF/F?
>
Oh boy.
A CLUELESS spamming troll.
How much worse can it get?...
Alma Hromic Deckert
<roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
Would you like to know how long it took for my "Changer of Days" books
to find a publisher after I finished writing them...? Would you
survive knowing that it took MORE THAN TEN YEARS? (and that during
that time I wrote other stuff, and carried on trying, and am now
expecting the advent of not just my second or third but my NEXT
novel...?
>Given that my writing
>has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
>'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
>probably worries over market size).
Nuh-uh. SOrry, buddy, but being good at academic writing usually means
that you're appalling at anything that a normal human being would read
for enjoyment. I spent a fair amount of my life in academia, including
working at a job that involved "translating" scientific papers into a
version of ENglish relatively comprehensible for the general public.
So I know whereof I speak.
>Honestly, what publisher has to advertise for authors? Get real.
>
SOME do. You've just advertised for the one that published you. They
may not have done the advertising directly but why bother when they
can have their authors do it for them for free?...
A.
John F. Eldredge
<roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
You still didn't answer the question about what this had to do with
the writing of science fiction and fantasy. That is what this
newsgroup is intended for, as posted quite recently in the FAQ.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Scott Golden
> Michelle,
>
> Yes, I'm new here. Spend much more time in the philosophy, mens and
> women's issues forums. However, I did post here a while back and
> received some replies when I started sending stuff out. People seemed
> supportive when people started the long hard struggle to find a publish
> which is why I returned to mention eventual success.
>
> Apologies for apparently breaking your rules.
>
> All the best
> Rory
>
>
On the contrary, thank you for deflecting some attention away from
me--at least for one day anyway.
Brian M. Scott
<cic...@speakeasy.net> wrote in
<news:44F78329...@speakeasy.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Dr Ridley-Duff wrote:
>> Helen Hall wrote:
>>> >But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
>>> Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>>> somehow oppressed.
>> Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance......if you really
>> want to lock horns on who is more oppressed
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Hahahahahahahah! Wow. A spammer *and* a troll.
Not precisely a troll, I think, but certainly not likely to
find many fellow-spirits here. (The 'Dr' in the screen name
was *not* a good sign, though to be fair it's somewhat
ameliorated by the signature 'Rory'.)
[...]
Brian
Wilson Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Helen Hall wrote:
>
>> >But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
>> >
>> Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>> somehow oppressed.
>>
>> Helen
>
>Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance......if you really
>want to lock horns on who is more oppressed then I can debate gender
>issues not just until the cows come home, but have also had a wander
>around the paddock several times waiting for our interminable nattering
>to finish....
In my field "PhD" is often taken to mean "Piled higher and deeper."
Wilson Heydt
Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>The receipts will be split 50/50 after production costs. We'll be
>using a Print-on-Demand supplier in the South of England. They stump
>up the print setup costs. I do all the leg work with the marketing.
>Hope it works out.
I hope for your sake that you have a clause that permits you to audit their books
with regard to your work.
James A. Donald
> men what publishers like Free Press and Virago did for
> women in the 1970s (i.e. give those silenced by
> mainstream publishing a voice on gender issues).
Real men don't have gender issues.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
James A. Donald
> (Job Rated Almanac - Krantz, 2002) and don't account
> for 92% of all workplace deaths (Why Men Earn More -
> Farrell, 2005), perhaps we'll be making progress
> towards equality... :)
It is right that men do the worst and most dangerous
jobs, and also the best and most congenial jobs. Men
who whine about it are insufficiently male, and women
who nag about it are bitches.
Feminism attempts to fit sex roles into the Marxist
story of oppressor and oppressed. Load of crap. Even
bigger load of crap when we tell the same Marxist story
with the sex roles reversed
Cally Soukup
> Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
> > Did you really approach them with ideas for novels?
> I had one complete novel and ideas for two others. I had one complete
> non-fiction book and two others almost complete. Still no dice.
> Agent/publishers always ask for the first three chapters so I wondered
> what the point was in writing any more until they were interested in
> the first three. Maybe that is not the right approach, but it seemed
> sensible after all the difficulties getting anyone to read the
> completed novel.
The point is that the acquisitions editor at that publisher, having
looked at the first three chapters, may well say, "ok, looks
interesting; show us the rest", and will be less than pleased at
waiting months or years for "the rest" to show up. Meanwhile, he or she
has left that company for another one, and the new editor isn't
interested, or the publisher has published another book that's too
similar, or they've got no slots available. And the one who was
interested has a) forgotten you exist, and b) now works for a publisher
that publishes fiction completely unlike what your portion+outline was,
so can't buy it.
The three chapters is so they can get an idea of what your writing is
like. But if you're a writer without a fiction track record, it's the
finished manuscript that proves you can *finish* the book. Many's the
person who's written three or five promising chapters and a terribly
bad conclusion. Or no conclusion at all; just stopped dead.
--
"I disapprove of what you have to say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@two14.net
Chris Dollin
> What is SF/F?
You posted to a newsgroup and you don't even know what it's
about?
Doesn't that strike you as both presumptuous and daft?
--
Perpeptually Surprised Hedgehog
Notmuchhere: http://www.electric-hedgehog.net/
Otherface: Jena RDF/Owl toolkit http://jena.sourceforge.net/
Dan Goodman
> Hi all,
>
> Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books?
Till now, I've had that good fortune.
If you are a writer
> seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then Men's
> Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both fiction
> and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
I write for people: male, female, intergender, genetic mosaics, etc.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Dan Goodman
> Dr Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Are people in here aware of Men's Hour Books? If you are a writer
> > seeking to question feminist presumptions on gender issues, then
> > Men's Hour Books might just be able to help you. They publish both
> > fiction and non-fiction "for the thinking man".
> >
> > I met the founder recently and he's trying to do for men what
> > publishers like Free Press and Virago did for women in the 1970s
> > (i.e. give those silenced by mainstream publishing a voice on
> > gender issues).
>
> But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
Sure -- it's alternate-world fiction.
Dan Goodman
> Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance.
As you may have noticed, having a PhD does not necessarily mean you
know what you're talking about.
julian flood
>
>> INearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
>
> Why does this not impress me much?
A rejection in only 18 months! Someone's reading slush that fast? Wow!
JF
Ingeborg Denner
"lclough" <clo...@erols.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:OVKJg.9729$p23.5176@trnddc04...
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> But does this have anything whatever to do with SF/F?
>>
>
> Perhaps it's fantasy. Nothing to do with the real world, you know?
AU, probably. In some universe where spammers and trolls are welcome.
inge
Zeborah
Tor rejected my ms from the slush very promptly. And after I nagged
Baen (within 18 months, I believe) they said "Oh yeah, that, we rejected
that ages ago." And DAW was also far too prompt; given the amount I'd
paid in postage to get it to them I'd have liked some more time in which
to feel smug that I'd got it off my hands again before they put it back
in my hands.
Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
Helen Hall
Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>
>Careful, Helen - my PhD was in gender and governance......if you really
>want to lock horns on who is more oppressed
I thought trying to rank levels of oppressedness was old hat? It was
when I did the OU's issues in Women's Studies course back in the 90s. I
certainly feel that questions like: does a disabled black unemployed
male ex-coalminer outrank a white single mum living on benefit on a sink
council estate in terms of being more oppressed are totally
non-productive. And class and race and culture and gender interlock in
complex and important ways. One can't talk about one without the others,
IMHO anyway.
And all of that would be off-topic here, unless you want to talk about
writing stories set in invented cultures and how things might be
different from ours?
>then I can debate gender
>issues not just until the cows come home, but have also had a wander
>around the paddock several times waiting for our interminable nattering
>to finish....
>
>I don't really care for the 'my world is worse than yours' debate. I
>prefer the 'how can we make a better world together' debate.
>
That's good. I apologise for being prickly. I picked up argumentative
vibes from your post that probably weren't intended. It had been a long,
tiring day at work.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
_Legacies of War_, a fantasy murder mystery, now on the web at:
http://helenkenyon.livejournal.com/413.html
Helen Hall
Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>
>Helen Hall wrote:
>> >
>> Writing non-fiction and writing fiction involve overlapping but
>> substantially different skills. Being successful as a non-fiction writer
>> does not lead, necessarily, to success as a fiction writer. Publishers
>> are, justifiably, concerned about market size because they're not
>> charities, they're businesses and have to make a profit to stay in
>> business.
>
>Yes, I've run several business and write business books so spare me the
>kindegarten lecture.
>
OK, but it seemed that you needed to hear it. You wrote about giving up
very quickly and also about submitting unfinished novels which is not
the way to go if you're a first time author. You came over in the post
like someone new to the fiction publishing game, so I was merely trying
to be helpful.
>
>I'm an anthropologist by trade - all that stuff publishers make authors
>go through is (culturally speaking) a) to socialise the author into
>doing exactly what the publisher wants; b) to erect barriers to keep
>authors at bay.
>
That's funny. I thought publishers were in the business to make a living
and to make profits for their shareholders by selling books to the book
reading public. How naive I could I be? All the time they were setting
up a complex system of barriers to train authors into doing what they
want. It's all a plot!
By the way, have you ever read the contents of the average slush pile?
If publishers erect barriers to keep authors at bay, it's because
they're drowning in manuscripts, a large number of which are, to put it
bluntly, crap. Even worse is the not-too-bad-but-not-quite-there stuff,
because that can't be rejected after skimming the first couple of pages
and has to be read right to the end.
>There is another option - take a chance and risk self-publishing.
I did, see .sig. The novel is on the web. It cost me nothing to do that,
unlike self-publishing which would take not only cash up front to have
artwork done, the MS copy-edited and copies printed, but would involve a
serious ongoing commitment of time and money in marketing the finished
product. I'd rather be writing my next novel, thank you very much.
Admittedly webbing the novel will make me no money, but any friends who
are interested can read it, which is all that I'm interested in. I've
moved on now, written another novel which is in the process of being
submitted to editors and agents and I'm working on another two novels,
one for fun and one with serious ambitions of eventual publication.
>
>What advert is that?
The one in your first post for the publisher who might be able to help
those of us who are writing books challenging "feminist presumptions on
gender issues".
>Is this not a forum where writers help other
>writers?
It is. We don't say that people shouldn't ever self-publish, but we've
had long debates over the issue in the past. (Which you can find if you
Google.) Our main remit is to talk about talking about the craft of
writing, which you would now, if you had done the courteous thing and
read a few week's worth of posts before posting your advert.
>What's your problem?
>
You come into a new group, many of whom are women and many of whom would
identify as feminists into the bargain, you not only advertise, which is
against the charter, but you are advertising something that is bound to
seem provocative to many of the group's members. And then you ask what
our problem is?
Sigh...
Michelle Bottorff
> >> INearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
> >
> > Why does this not impress me much?
>
> A rejection in only 18 months! Someone's reading slush that fast? Wow!
<giggle>
I've actually never had a rejection take that long.
yourno...@gmail.com
Wilson Heydt wrote:
>
> In my field "PhD" is often taken to mean "Piled higher and deeper."
AS = Almost Shit.
BS = BullShit
MS = More Shit
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper
>
> --
> Hal Heydt
> Albany, CA
>
> My dime, my opinions.
Sorry. Couldn't pass it up.
Bryan
Wilson Heydt
<yourno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Wilson Heydt wrote:
>
>>
>> In my field "PhD" is often taken to mean "Piled higher and deeper."
>
>AS = Almost Shit.
>BS = BullShit
>MS = More Shit
"More of the same" was the way we did it.
Jacey Bedford
Ridley-Duff <roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>Wilson,
>
>I'm not the founder but I am about to become one of the company's
>authors.
Rory - first of all, I believe that someone asked you reasonably nicely
not to top-post. It's not what we do here and we do like new posters to
follow our traditions - it makes it easier on all of us to follow a
conversation. So please snip the bits of the post you are not replying
to and post at the bottom - or intersperse your comments at the relevant
position in the post.
And Wilson is not 'Wilson' - he's Hal.
OK, now we've got that out of the way...
You've obviously posted to the wrong group as we are a group of (mostly)
authors who specialise in the writing of science fiction and fantasy.
Many of whom are published and others working hard to be.
>I approached agents about 60 times with a series of ideas for
>novels. I then gave up on agents and tried publishers with no greater
>success. Nearly 18 months of rejection (!!). Given that my writing
>has been accepted internationally in academic circles this isn't a
>'quality of writing' issue - it is a resistence to new ideas issue (and
>probably worries over market size).
It may still be a 'quality of writing' issue because the skills required
for a good academic paper (i.e. subject knowledge, being able to string
sentences together, punctuate them correctly and spellcheck) are only a
part of good fiction writing.
You don't get much opportunity to experiment with plot and
characterisation in an academic paper. Neither do you have to worry too
much about character voice - those little nuances that make the people
on your page come alive.
For instance, you wonder why people here are jumping on you for spamming
and I can tell you now that it's because your original post read like
the kind of disguised advert that we see almost every day on this
newsgroup.
We didn't just read your words, we read between them as well.
A good fiction writer influences the reader's perception of the words
between the words.
If you want to stick around here and talk to us, then that's fine, but
please have the decency to read our FAQ first and post on-topic.
http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
If you made a mistake and wish never to darken our doorstep again,
please admit it and don't make things worse by trying to justify your
original post. I'm glad you've found a publisher, but, as several people
have said, 'What has this got to do with the writing of science fiction
and fantasy?'
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
David Friedman
mbot...@lshelby.com (Michelle Bottorff) wrote:
> julian flood <jul...@ooopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >> INearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
> > >
> > > Why does this not impress me much?
> >
> > A rejection in only 18 months! Someone's reading slush that fast? Wow!
>
> <giggle>
> I've actually never had a rejection take that long.
I have.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Pat Bowne
"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>
> /shrug My background is in Engineering. If that's what he
> wants to deal with, then he should say it. (And, of course,
> get slapped down hard for presuming it'll fly.)
>
Why shouldn't he think it will fly? This is the genre that gave the world
the Gor books. Though that's proof that writers in our genre can publish
such stuff without a special interest press...
Pat
Pat Bowne
"Michelle Bottorff" <mbot...@lshelby.com> wrote in message
news:1hkz74t.hgotdi7zs46oN%mbot...@lshelby.com...
> julian flood <jul...@ooopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> INearly 18 months of rejection (!!).
>> >
>> > Why does this not impress me much?
>>
>> A rejection in only 18 months! Someone's reading slush that fast? Wow!
>
> <giggle>
> I've actually never had a rejection take that long.
>
I had a publisher keep an ms that long without even opening the box.
Pat
Dorothy J Heydt
True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
Not only has the culture changed (some), the market has changed a
whole lot; and horny young men, for whom Gor was once the closest
thing to porn they could get, can now get the hard stuff online.
Still, there might very well be a market for books fitting the
viewpoint of people who, having been on the top of the totem pole
for the last several millennia, see an increase in equality as
unfair to them.
"You don't like Gothic rule?"
"No! Not with the religious persecution we have to put up with."
"I thought the Goths let everybody worship as he pleased."
"That's just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about
their business as if they owned the country. If that isn't
persecution, I'd like to know what is!"
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Michelle Bottorff
> > <giggle>
> > I've actually never had a rejection take that long.
>
> I have.
I wouldn't be surprised if it happens to me eventually, but at the
moment I'm pretty sure 16 months is my record.
I guess I've been lucky.
Jeff Stehman
>
> True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
--Jeff Stehman
Dorothy J Heydt
And I bet I know who'll buy it, too. The middle-aged men who
bought it first time around as teenagers.
Not impossibly far-fetched analogy: a woman goes to a Frank
Sinatra concert (back when he was alive, obviously) and says to
the woman sitting next to her, "Have you noticed that Sinatra
appeals to a more mature audience than he used to?"
"Of course we're older -- we're the same girls!"
Nicola Browne
news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
> >
> > True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>
> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
>
Are those thae books that have inspired a UK cult - where women
are on leads? ( apparently someone went to the butchers with a
woman on a lead and the police were called- there were allegations of
abuse - sparked a debate a few months ago about whether the women really
were free and consenting to that treatment.)
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Brian M. Scott
<nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in
<news:02e4ef6d32d0386d36...@mygate.mailgate.org>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Jeff Stehman" <je...@stehmanREMOVE.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
>> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>> True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
> Are those thae books that have inspired a UK cult - where women
> are on leads? [...]
Yes.
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>"Jeff Stehman" <je...@stehmanREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
>
>> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>> >
>> > True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>>
>> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
Yes. The idea that women really want to be enslaved and abused
is not only a tenet of the Gor books, but apparently of Norman
himself. He's a loon.
David Langford
wrote:
Beware! Every time I say or imply something like this in =Ansible= I get a
terrifying barrage of abusive email from UK Gor fandom. Well, from the
subset of UK Gor fandom that reads =Ansible=, which fortunately never seems
to exceed one.
Dave
--
David Langford | http://ansible.co.uk/
Latest nonfiction: =The SEX Column and other misprints= (Cosmos, 2005)
Latest fiction: =Different Kinds of Darkness= (Cosmos, 2004)
Dorothy J Heydt
David Langford <ans...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 17:59:21 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <02e4ef6d32d0386d36...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
>>Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>"Jeff Stehman" <je...@stehmanREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>>>news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
>>>
>>>> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>>> >
>>>> > True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>>>>
>>>> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
>>
>>Yes. The idea that women really want to be enslaved and abused
>>is not only a tenet of the Gor books, but apparently of Norman
>>himself. He's a loon.
>
>Beware! Every time I say or imply something like this in =Ansible= I get a
>terrifying barrage of abusive email from UK Gor fandom. Well, from the
>subset of UK Gor fandom that reads =Ansible=, which fortunately never seems
>to exceed one.
Since I'm never likely to encounter this person, I don't care.
Jacey Bedford
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
In 1975 I asked a work colleague to get me the new Andre Norton if he
was passing the bookstore in town. He came back with a John Norman.
I read it.
I wished I hadn't.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>In message <J4z8M...@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> writes
>>In article <02e4ef6d32d0386d36...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
>>Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>"Jeff Stehman" <je...@stehmanREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>>>news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
>>>
>>>> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>>> >
>>>> > True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>>>>
>>>> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
>>
>>Yes. The idea that women really want to be enslaved and abused
>>is not only a tenet of the Gor books, but apparently of Norman
>>himself. He's a loon.
>
>In 1975 I asked a work colleague to get me the new Andre Norton if he
>was passing the bookstore in town. He came back with a John Norman.
>
>I read it.
>
>I wished I hadn't.
The Other Change of Hobbit used to have, posted on the end of one
of its bookshelves, a page from a Gor novel with the inscription
above it, "THIS IS WHY WE DON'T SELL GOR NOVELS."
Brian M. Scott
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
<news:K0H6bdJF...@artifact.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> In 1975 I asked a work colleague to get me the new Andre Norton if he
> was passing the bookstore in town. He came back with a John Norman.
> I read it.
> I wished I hadn't.
Sharon Green did it much more stylishly.
Brian
Will in New Haven
We didn't sell them at Book World after the change of ownership in the
late Seventies. I don't remember seeing them much before that, really,
but Chuck & Helen, when they bought the store, just refused to carry
them. I didn't care much myself but I used to get really amused by
people who claimed that what a bookstore decided to carry was a First
Amendment issue.
Will in New Haven
--
" It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond
of it." - Robert E. Lee
Daniel R. Reitman
<roryrid...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>. . . .
>I'm an anthropologist by trade . . . .
>. . . .
I suggest you reread _The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life._
<plonk>
Dan, ad nauseam
Pat Bowne
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:J4y63...@kithrup.com...
> In article <12fhvej...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Pat Bowne <pbo...@execpc.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>>>
>>> /shrug My background is in Engineering. If that's what he
>>> wants to deal with, then he should say it. (And, of course,
>>> get slapped down hard for presuming it'll fly.)
>>>
>>
>>Why shouldn't he think it will fly? This is the genre that gave the world
>>the Gor books. Though that's proof that writers in our genre can publish
>>such stuff without a special interest press...
>
> True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
> Not only has the culture changed (some), the market has changed a
> whole lot; and horny young men, for whom Gor was once the closest
> thing to porn they could get, can now get the hard stuff online.
Well, the Kushiel books are selling nowadays and what else are they?
>
> Still, there might very well be a market for books fitting the
> viewpoint of people who, having been on the top of the totem pole
> for the last several millennia, see an increase in equality as
> unfair to them.
>
That is what I usually see men's righter's griping about, but I think they
have a lot of other significant issues that could be interestingly addressed
in fiction. Turning men's attention from all the social issues that they
used to get exercised about to the idea that feminism is the cause of all
their problems has been a real marketing triumph.
Pat
Dorothy J Heydt
Pat Bowne <pbo...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>news:J4y63...@kithrup.com...
>> In article <12fhvej...@corp.supernews.com>,
>> Pat Bowne <pbo...@execpc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>> /shrug My background is in Engineering. If that's what he
>>>> wants to deal with, then he should say it. (And, of course,
>>>> get slapped down hard for presuming it'll fly.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why shouldn't he think it will fly? This is the genre that gave the world
>>>the Gor books. Though that's proof that writers in our genre can publish
>>>such stuff without a special interest press...
>>
>> True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
>> Not only has the culture changed (some), the market has changed a
>> whole lot; and horny young men, for whom Gor was once the closest
>> thing to porn they could get, can now get the hard stuff online.
>
>Well, the Kushiel books are selling nowadays and what else are they?
I dunno, what are they? I haven't read 'em.
Brian M. Scott
<pbo...@execpc.com> wrote in
<news:12fkemq...@corp.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> news:J4y63...@kithrup.com...
[...]
>> True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has
>> passed. Not only has the culture changed (some), the
>> market has changed a whole lot; and horny young men, for
>> whom Gor was once the closest thing to porn they could
>> get, can now get the hard stuff online.
> Well, the Kushiel books are selling nowadays and what else
> are they?
Rather good fantasy, one of the few with a fictional
invented religions that doesn't sound completely fictional.
In fact, earlier this summer I gave the trilogy as a small
part of an 18th birthday / high school graduation present to
my doctor's elder daughter.
[...]
Brian
David Goldfarb
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>The Other Change of Hobbit used to have, posted on the end of one
>of its bookshelves, a page from a Gor novel with the inscription
>above it, "THIS IS WHY WE DON'T SELL GOR NOVELS."
We would occasionally get people complaining that we were
censoring them. We weren't: we were perfectly happy to
direct people down the road to Cody's, which stocked them
in large quantities. Tom and Debbie and Dave simply chose
not to stock the books themselves.
--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | tonight's show...and they were six of the
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | toughest clown midgets I've ever seen."
| -- Billy Crystal
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
>The Other Change of Hobbit used to have, posted on the end of one
>of its bookshelves, a page from a Gor novel with the inscription
>above it, "THIS IS WHY WE DON'T SELL GOR NOVELS."
I had a friend in college who had the unfortunate experience of being
named after one of John Norman's characters.
Dan, ad nauseam
David Friedman
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 17:59:21 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <02e4ef6d32d0386d36...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
> >Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>"Jeff Stehman" <je...@stehmanREMOVE.com> wrote in message
> >>news:MPG.1f635ee94...@news.frontiernet.net
> >>
> >>> In article <J4y63...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
> >>> >
> >>> > True; but consider that the time for the Gor books has passed.
> >>>
> >>> I read in Locus that the first book has been reissued.
> >
> >Yes. The idea that women really want to be enslaved and abused
> >is not only a tenet of the Gor books, but apparently of Norman
> >himself. He's a loon.
>
> Beware! Every time I say or imply something like this in =Ansible= I get a
> terrifying barrage of abusive email from UK Gor fandom. Well, from the
> subset of UK Gor fandom that reads =Ansible=, which fortunately never seems
> to exceed one.
I think "loon" seriously oversimplifies. He was a good storyteller and I
suspect knew quite a lot about historical cultures. The problem with the
books, for me, wasn't that he had very odd ideas about gender relations
and the like--by historical standards, current ideas are also pretty
odd, and people with odd ideas can be interesting reading. It was that
he insisted on preaching the ideas over and over, instead of letting
them be implicit in the world and getting on with the story.
Ingeborg Denner
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
AU where christianity never took hol, antiquity never ended, and all
the old gods and cultures are still alive a thousand years or more
after their time was over in our world.
The "little more modern" reference point that keeps the history from
going stale is in what is the place where Yahwe's illegimate grandson
and his gang of semi-fallen angels are said to have made a home. The
culture is very romantic/sensual/utopian without any close real-world
model.
The heroine is a woman who has the bad luck of having been chosen not
by one, but by two of the angels/gods: the goddess of prostitues, and
the god of pain (Kushiel). She's a high class submissive courtesan and
a trained spy and linguist. She's also intelligent, sneaky, tough,
ambitious and highly respected in her society. The stories have their
explicit moments. What the books most remind me of are some of Tanith
Lee's work.
inge
Dorothy J Heydt
Wildepad <noreplies> wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:49:48 +0100, Helen Hall
><use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>>somehow oppressed.
>
>An example of blatant oppression:
>
>A woman can put on blue jeans, a flannel shirt, and hiking boots, and
>go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
Not in Berkeley.
Jacey Bedford
>In article <lvunf2tmdmlgq3ig4...@4ax.com>,
>Wildepad <noreplies> wrote:
>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:49:48 +0100, Helen Hall
>><use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>>>somehow oppressed.
>>
>>An example of blatant oppression:
>>
>>A woman can put on blue jeans, a flannel shirt, and hiking boots, and
>>go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>>runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>>lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
Another lovely first sentence for _something_
Dorothy J Heydt
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>A woman can put on blue jeans, a flannel shirt, and hiking boots, and
>>>go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>>>runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>>>lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
>
>Another lovely first sentence for _something_
Well, take the line I added to it:
>>Except in Berkeley.
Change "Berkeley" to some other name, and you've started
worldbuilding.
I will point out that in the 19th century a woman who wore trews
of any kind (let alone blue jeans) could get arrested, and
frequently did.
And a stray neuron just brought up an immage of the cover Kelly
Freas did for an Astounding cover in the early fifties,
illustrating a Piper Paratime story, slightly alternate universe
... bunch of big tough cowboy-types (nasty ones, turns out they
are slavers) who wear sort of burnooses, and polka-dot
sunbonnets.
Which if you take it strictly from logic, they wouldn't have worn.
A wide-brimmed hat keeps the sun off the face, but allows
peripheral vision. A sunbonnet not only keeps the sun off the
face, it restricts the vision like a set of blinkers, keeps the
wimmenfolk from looking around and gettin' ideas. (I've just
finished rereading Laura Ingalls Wilder and am remembering
Laura's Ma continually screeching, "Laura, put your sunbonnet on
or you'll be as brown as an Indian!")
S. Palmer
Not in Amherst.
In mainstream America, men's clothing may be deemed (to some extent)
suitable for both genders, but wearing women's clothing places a stigma
on the wearer. It's understandable why a woman would try to dress like a
man (the more empowered half of society) but not why a man would dress
the other way, deliberately disempowering himself. I'd say your above
example points far more to oppression of women and to homophobia (which
is, in part, a fear of men taking the sexual role of women) than it does
to oppression of men.
Gods, though, I sure don't want to argue this out here.
-Suzanne
Dorothy J Heydt
S. Palmer <cic...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> In article <lvunf2tmdmlgq3ig4...@4ax.com>,
>> Wildepad <noreplies> wrote:
>> >
>> >A woman can put on blue jeans, a flannel shirt, and hiking boots, and
>> >go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>> >runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>> >lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
>>
>> Not in Berkeley.
>
>Not in Amherst.
>
>In mainstream America, men's clothing may be deemed (to some extent)
>suitable for both genders, but wearing women's clothing places a stigma
>on the wearer. It's understandable why a woman would try to dress like a
>man (the more empowered half of society)
Well, it isn't that she wants to dress "like a man". At least,
mostly she doesn't, unless she's trying to make a political
statement. Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
extent that she can't get any work done in them. Dorothy L.
Sayers's "Are Women Human?"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802829961?v=glance
goes into this discussion for several pages, and points out that
women's bodies are actually better designed for wearing pants than
men's, since they can keep the pants up without wearing [silly,
uncomfortable] braces [USian suspenders].
There's a brief scene in McAvoy's _Twisting the Rope_ in which we
encounter two women, one of them dressed up all pretty in silk
and pearls and high heels, the other in, well, jeans and flannel
shirt and boots. I will emphasize here that NEITHER of these
women are lesbians, nor are they trying to make any political
statements; but the contrast between them is rather eye-catching
and the woman in silk and heels remarks, "Yeah, I'm done up all
femme today, [character's name] is doing butch." And the other
answers, in a tone of faint complaint, "I have to dig a French
drain."
David Friedman
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
> considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
> few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
> clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
> make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
> extent that she can't get any work done in them.
The most obvious difference, and the one that I think defines the two
classes in the eyes of a modern observer, is pants vs dresses. But dress
like garments have been the norm for men in lots of past societies. Are
you arguing that that those also were designed to keep their wearers
from getting any work done in them?
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>There's a brief scene in McAvoy's _Twisting the Rope_ in which we
>encounter two women, one of them dressed up all pretty in silk
>and pearls and high heels, the other in, well, jeans and flannel
>shirt and boots. I will emphasize here that NEITHER of these
>women are lesbians, nor are they trying to make any political
>statements; but the contrast between them is rather eye-catching
>and the woman in silk and heels remarks, "Yeah, I'm done up all
>femme today, [character's name] is doing butch." And the other
>answers, in a tone of faint complaint, "I have to dig a French
>drain."
Wimmin's clothes (the buttons and bows) are designed to be pretty and
impractical. Still, we do the best we can. One of my most endurign
memories of one of my excessively feminine aunts was her, dolled up in
high-heeled slingback sandals with little bows on top and a swirly
skirt, pushing the dead car out of the way of the main traffic one
rainy afternoon in SOuth Africa - the guy driving an eighteen-wheeler,
waiting at the lights, who had a bird's eye view of the proceedings,
was weeping with laughter as he watched this mincing, prancing,
bedraggled belle pushing the car with a high-heeled wiggle to her
bottom.
Wasn't so funny to us, at the time, but I do have to admit it's been
giggled over (in retrospect) quite a few times since then.
A.
Zeborah
> Well, it isn't that she wants to dress "like a man". At least,
> mostly she doesn't, unless she's trying to make a political
> statement. Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
> considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
> few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
> clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
> make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
> extent that she can't get any work done in them.
"Mostly" indeed: myself I don't find trousers comfortable, especially
not jeans, and feel most comfortable in long skirts, in which I can get
done any work I want; hitching them up (no matter what I'm carrying) to
get upstairs without tripping is as second-nature to me as opening a
door to get through without banging my nose on it.
I never had any problems with ties, either, when I went to a school that
had them as part of the uniform.
I was once asked by a library patron, apparently on the basis of my
habit of wearing skirts, whether I was a Christian. Well, yes, but if
there's any cause and effect there it's vanishingly remote.
Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
Helen Hall
<noreplies@?.?.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:49:48 +0100, Helen Hall
><use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>>somehow oppressed.
>
>An example of blatant oppression:
>
>go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
By whom? The fashion police? :-)
But more seriously... A woman can wear what she wants *now*, but how
would people have reacted to a woman in jeans 120 years ago? Also as
long as the dress covered him decently, a man in blue chiffon would be
fine over in the UK. He'd get some funny looks, but other than that?
*Shrug* If he had any problems it would be with other men, not with
women.
Anyway, wearing a skirt didn't do David Beckham's reputation any harm.
http://www.kiltmen.com/photogallery4.htm
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
_Legacies of War_, a fantasy murder mystery, now on the web at:
http://helenkenyon.livejournal.com/413.html
David Friedman
Alma Hromic Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
> Wimmin's clothes (the buttons and bows) are designed to be pretty and
> impractical.
Not all that long ago, men's military uniforms had lots and lots of
buttons. Do you think they were designed to be impractical too?
Alma Hromic Deckert
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <seuof25tsfspuc04p...@4ax.com>,
> Alma Hromic Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
>
>> Wimmin's clothes (the buttons and bows) are designed to be pretty and
>> impractical.
>
>Not all that long ago, men's military uniforms had lots and lots of
>buttons. Do you think they were designed to be impractical too?
Diff'rent buttons.
A.
Marilee J. Layman
>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:49:48 +0100, Helen Hall
><use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Possibly. He seems to be posting from an alternate reality where men are
>>somehow oppressed.
>
>An example of blatant oppression:
>
>A woman can put on blue jeans, a flannel shirt, and hiking boots, and
>go all over town and no one says a thing, but if a man, just once,
>runs to the grocery store while wearing a blue chiffon, he's liable to
>lose his job and possibly even be arrested!
Women will be looked at strangely if they wear blue chiffon to the
grocery store, too! Be more realistic - he can wear a miniskirt.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>And a stray neuron just brought up an immage of the cover Kelly
>Freas did for an Astounding cover in the early fifties,
>illustrating a Piper Paratime story, slightly alternate universe
>... bunch of big tough cowboy-types (nasty ones, turns out they
>are slavers) who wear sort of burnooses, and polka-dot
>sunbonnets.
In the Smithsonian story I read about the cannibals, one of the tribe
members who was returning from the city to the jungle was wearing a
"bonnet" as a souvenir. I thought of bonnet as sunbonnet, but the
picture showed it was a yellow wide-brimmed hat with a chiffon flower
(around here, a church-lady hat). Definitely looked odd on him.
Dorothy J Heydt
Alma Hromic Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 13:33:35 -0700, David Friedman
><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <seuof25tsfspuc04p...@4ax.com>,
>> Alma Hromic Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Wimmin's clothes (the buttons and bows) are designed to be pretty and
>>> impractical.
>>
>>Not all that long ago, men's military uniforms had lots and lots of
>>buttons. Do you think they were designed to be impractical too?
>
>Diff'rent buttons.
Some of those buttons were practical, i.e., they held the garment
onto the body. The ones on the sleeves, on the other hand, were
designed to keep the wearer from wiping his nose on his sleeve.
Suzanne Blom
"Marilee J. Layman" <mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote in message
news:2j5pf2dr380cqfkd0...@4ax.com...
lower status of wearing women's things that's the problem.
James A. Donald
> The idea that women really want to be enslaved and
> abused is not only a tenet of the Gor books, but
> apparently of Norman himself. He's a loon.
Observe that there are a lot more females converting to
Islam than men.
Also observe the rather curious choice in men displayed
by so many prominent feminists. Nice guys finish last.
Women tend to vote for political arrangements where the
state is their husband and the father of their children,
and feminists endorse that arrangement, but do not seem
altogether happy with that outcome.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
Julia Jones
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
Nor in Palo Alto, judging by one or two of the customers I encountered
while I was working as a checkout operator...
--
Julia Jones
"We are English of Borg. Your language will be assimilated."
Julia Jones
Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
>In article <J52zn...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
>> considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
>> few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
>> clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
>> make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
>> extent that she can't get any work done in them.
>
>The most obvious difference, and the one that I think defines the two
>classes in the eyes of a modern observer, is pants vs dresses. But dress
>like garments have been the norm for men in lots of past societies. Are
>you arguing that that those also were designed to keep their wearers
>from getting any work done in them?
>
considered appropriate for women. The properly feminine dress is much
more restrictive to free movement than is a robe, and requires a great
deal more care to stop it being damaged, dirtied or mussed.
We could start the "strait/straight-laced" argument again. :-)
David Friedman
Julia Jones <julia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In message <ddfr-437D85.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
> >In article <J52zn...@kithrup.com>,
> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >> Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
> >> considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
> >> few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
> >> clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
> >> make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
> >> extent that she can't get any work done in them.
> >
> >The most obvious difference, and the one that I think defines the two
> >classes in the eyes of a modern observer, is pants vs dresses. But dress
> >like garments have been the norm for men in lots of past societies. Are
> >you arguing that that those also were designed to keep their wearers
> >from getting any work done in them?
> >
> It's not the concept "dress", but the style of the particular dress
> considered appropriate for women. The properly feminine dress is much
> more restrictive to free movement than is a robe, and requires a great
> deal more care to stop it being damaged, dirtied or mussed.
I'm sure there are such dresses, but are you suggesting that that was
true of all acceptable dresses for women in the nineteenth century?
As Betty comments, reading over my shoulders, women have worked in most
societies through most of history.
Dorothy J Heydt
And in Berkeley there used to be a guy (don't know if he's still
around) who used to stand at the University entrance at Bancroft
and Telegraph, ranting about whatever his particular ranting
theme was, wearing not only a skirt, but a bra ... over his
shirt.
David Friedman
"Suzanne Blom" <sue...@execpc.com> wrote:
I don't think it's a status issue. Gender is a fairly basic
classification, whether or not it matters for status, and the reaction
is to a man "signaling" that he is a woman. It used to work both ways,
but at this point it's hard to think of clothing that clearly signals
male.
(Betty suggests male style suit and tie as one such; I'm not sure what
the reaction would be to a woman wearing that. I probably wouldn't
notice.)
Julia Jones
>In article <QrgYIARONL$EF...@southcom.com.au>,
> Julia Jones <julia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <ddfr-437D85.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
>> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
>> >In article <J52zn...@kithrup.com>,
>> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Mostly, it's that the clothes that are traditionally
>> >> considered "men's clothes" are practical and comfortable (with a
>> >> few exceptions like tight collars and ties), whereas "women's
>> >> clothes" are impractical, chiefly decorated, and are designed to
>> >> make their wearer likewise decorative and impractical to the
>> >> extent that she can't get any work done in them.
>> >
>> >The most obvious difference, and the one that I think defines the two
>> >classes in the eyes of a modern observer, is pants vs dresses. But dress
>> >like garments have been the norm for men in lots of past societies. Are
>> >you arguing that that those also were designed to keep their wearers
>> >from getting any work done in them?
>> >
>> It's not the concept "dress", but the style of the particular dress
>> considered appropriate for women. The properly feminine dress is much
>> more restrictive to free movement than is a robe, and requires a great
>> deal more care to stop it being damaged, dirtied or mussed.
>
>I'm sure there are such dresses, but are you suggesting that that was
>true of all acceptable dresses for women in the nineteenth century?
Of course not. The specific context of this sub-thread was a chiffon
dress - which is one of the classic examples of a dress designed to make
it impossible for the wearer to do anything but be decorative.
There is a reason I said "properly feminine dress" up there. I've had
rather more experience on the trousers side, but there is a fairly
common attitude that a woman is not properly feminine unless the item of
clothing, be it trousers or skirt, is designed to be restrictive in some
fashion.