Science Fiction as a Genre
Glenn Smith
What is involved in an SF book?
Jaana Heino
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
You are not serious, are you?
("Die", indeed. Freudian? :))
--
Jaana Heino "Power corrupts, but we
ja...@iki.fi still need electricity."
Torkel Franzen
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
Your assignment is indeed dying on you.
Jaquandor
>What is involved in an SF book?
Lightsabers. Lots of lightsabers. A book with no lightsabers is not an SF book.
--
-Jaquandor
byzantiumshores.blogspot.com
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
--George Carlin
Elizabeth Shack
Wilson Heydt
Glenn Smith <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
>What is involved in an SF book?
Just get in your time machine and go back a few weeks so that you
have time to research the answer.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Ray
"Jaquandor" <jaqu...@aol.comsinatra> wrote in message
news:20020322081220...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction
Genre.
> >What is involved in an SF book?
>
> Lightsabers. Lots of lightsabers. A book with no lightsabers is not an SF
book.
Were you just waiting for a suitable straight line to go bye? ;-)
Ray
Ray
"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:GtDw4...@kithrup.com...
> In article <VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> Glenn Smith <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction
Genre.
> >What is involved in an SF book?
>
> Just get in your time machine and go back a few weeks so that you
> have time to research the answer.
He ought to read a few of them in order to give a credible report. I
suggest starting with _Ash_.
Ray
Julian Flood
"Glenn Smith" <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Help me!!! I have an assignment due tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
>
>
You need to put in SF markers, apparently: I can think of robots and
space-ships; light sabres would be good; a princess, because obviously
government in the future will be based on the hereditary principle; plots
are optional and if what you come up with has depth, pathos or substance,
then try to delete it. Oh, yes, add a cutie -- a small furry animal or robot
that the
kids can relate to and go 'aah' when it's in trouble or says something cute.
Cute things in general.. Cool machines. A
protag with either big muscles or a drug habit. Anything cool, really. Ask
around for others. Did I mention something cool? And cute? Cool _and_ cute
would be cool.
There are other SF markers but what do I know? I'm just this writer, neh?
_Ask around_. There's someone who knows, but he wouldn't expand for me.*
jf
lemon impersonater
*John, this is a _hint_.
Mike McKeown
Ray wrote in message ...
:
:"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
_Ash_ is a good idea, but it needs to be followed by Peter F
Hamilton's _Night's Dawn_, and Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars_.
Then, about midnight, he can move on to Tad Williams'
_Otherland_ and wrap up the night with Wingrove's _Chung Kuo_.
Some of these may only be available in multi-part editions,
sadly.
Mike M
Mike McKeown
Mike McKeown
Mike McKeown
Mike McKeown
Mike McKeown wrote ...
something four times, apparently. The news server is playing
up, and now I don't know whether the cancellations are
propagating either. My apologies.
Neil Barnes
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction
> Genre. What is involved in an SF book?
Ink, paper, bit of glue. Same as any other book, really.
--
I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost...
barnacle
http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
John H.
> Glenn Smith <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction
Genre.
> >What is involved in an SF book?
>
> Just get in your time machine and go back a few weeks so that you
> have time to research the answer.
ObComicstrips: Calvin and Hobbes
In which Calvin, realizing that he's only got half an hour to finish his
homework before bedtime, spends that remaining time to build a time machine
to go back through time to kick his pass self into a more productive mode.
Of course, Calvin being Calvin, each past Calvin is blaming the Calvin
before him... I think the strip ends with Hobbes being surrounded by a bunch
of Calvins blaming each other for not finishing the homework.
john
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
<L8Mm8.116498$1g.89...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net (Ray) wrote:
I definitely support the suggestion of the time machine, in
that case. :)
Mary
Dan Goodman
to the cited author.]
In article <VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
kral...@bigpond.com says...
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
A better place to ask is rec.arts.sf.written.
Note, by the way, that there is science fiction shorter than book-length;
for several decades, almost all sf was short.
I suggest you look up "definitions of science fiction" in the
Encyclopedia of Science Fiction.
--
Dan Goodman
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Jaquandor
>Genre.
>> >What is involved in an SF book?
>>
>> Lightsabers. Lots of lightsabers. A book with no lightsabers is not an SF
>book.
>
>
>Were you just waiting for a suitable straight line to go bye? ;-)
Yep! I was finally able to strike Entry 47 off my list of "Usenet Quips in
Search of a Post To Use Them On." The sense of accomplishment is
*staggering*!!!
Cyde Weys
"Mike McKeown" <mike.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:a7g6jq$kbvkk$1...@ID-73063.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Ray wrote in message ...
> :
> :"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> :news:GtDw4...@kithrup.com...
> :> In article <VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> :> Glenn Smith <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> :> >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science
> Fiction
> :Genre.
> :> >What is involved in an SF book?
> :>
> :> Just get in your time machine and go back a few weeks so that
> you
> :> have time to research the answer.
> :
> :
> :He ought to read a few of them in order to give a credible
> report. I
> :suggest starting with _Ash_.
> :
> _Ash_ is a good idea, but it needs to be followed by Peter F
> Hamilton's _Night's Dawn_, and Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars_.
Wow, somebody else who's read The Night's Dawn!!!!
Cyde Weys
"Glenn Smith" <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
Replicators, transporters, photon torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared
beings - these are the key elements of all sci-fi. If a book misses any of
these, it is not scifi. These are the FOUR KEY ELEMENTS that you would do
well to talk about in your assignment; discuss them and pass, ignore them
and fail.
I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters, photon
torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters, photon
> torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
Farscape.
HTH. HAND.
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Dreams are not lost, they merely fall beneath the ashes of what is left
To the soul from where it starts to where it catches.
- "Matter," Josh Joplin Group
Cyde Weys
"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
photon
> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
>
> Farscape.
>
> HTH. HAND.
*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population ...
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
Yes, I'm sorry you didn't get it too.
Ray
> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > "Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> > news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> > > Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
> > > > photon torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
> > >
> > > Farscape.
> > >
> > > HTH. HAND.
> >
> > *Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population
...
>
> Yes, I'm sorry you didn't get it too.
I think that everyone is having *way* too much fun with this one. I wonder
if Glenn Smith had any idea what he was getting into.
Ray
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
lose the humor, she ignored it.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
> lose the humor, she ignored it.
s/the/a.
I'm not a one-true-wayist nitwit, and I would prefer not to be
characterised as such.
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> wrote:
> >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
> >photon
> >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
> >>
> >> Farscape.
> >>
> >> HTH. HAND.
> >
> >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population ...
> >
> No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
> lose the humor, she ignored it.
Belated addendum:
Farscape is a television show.
Do you get the joke /now/?
Chris Dollin
"Glenn Smith" <kral...@bigpond.com> writes:
> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
> What is involved in an SF book?
Did you want to know about SF or about Science Fiction? In any case,
it's a tad late now to be asking. One of the things involved in an
SF book - in fact, pretty much any book-as-produced-object - is a
notion of "having things ready on time".
The ways to find out what's involved in a genre is to read lots of works
in that genre, of a wide variety of styles and dates and authors and
publishers. If you haven't read any SF yet, you're stuffed.
--
Unstuffed But Rounded Hedgehog
Brooks Moses
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:14:57 GMT, "Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters, photon
> >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
> >>
> >> Farscape.
> >>
> >> HTH. HAND.
> >
> >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population ...
>
> No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
> lose the humor, she ignored it.
Thank you for explaining that. I almost never do understand what she's
talking about.
- Brooks, glad at least to know that media and written sf are finally
being considered the same genre again, as they ought to be.
Boudewijn Rempt
>
> I think that everyone is having *way* too much fun with this one. I
> wonder if Glenn Smith had any idea what he was getting into.
>
I am sure of it -- it was probably his intention. I can't imagine
anybody who is as clueless as that, and _still_ knows enough about
Usenet to find a moderately on-topic news group.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Ian Randal Strock
<kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
>What is involved in an SF book?
Due tomorrow? As in Saturday? Tough school.
If you're writing an essay, my advice is "Get sick. Fast." That ought
to give you some time to actually do the assignment.
Of course, if it's an essay, you may be in trouble anyway, since the
answer is terribly brief and succinct: A science fiction book must
have both science and fiction. GOOD science fiction is a story in
which the science is so integral to the plot that, without it, the
story falls apart. To make that story into a book means you have to
write more.
Ian Randal Strock, Editor & Publisher
Artemis Magazine
http://www.LRCPublications.com
Brooks Moses
> Ray wrote:
> > I think that everyone is having *way* too much fun with this one. I
> > wonder if Glenn Smith had any idea what he was getting into.
>
> I am sure of it -- it was probably his intention. I can't imagine
> anybody who is as clueless as that, and _still_ knows enough about
> Usenet to find a moderately on-topic news group.
I seem to recall that this sort of thing is quite common on the sci.*
groups. But I haven't been over on that side of usenet in ages....
- Brooks
Charlie Stross
as <vze2...@verizon.net> declared:
>> :He ought to read a few of them in order to give a credible
>> report. I
>> :suggest starting with _Ash_.
>> :
>> _Ash_ is a good idea, but it needs to be followed by Peter F
>> Hamilton's _Night's Dawn_, and Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars_.
>
> Wow, somebody else who's read The Night's Dawn!!!!
Me too. Never again.
I'm going to Helicon next weekend and for my sins I've been drafted
onto a panel discussing this year's Clarke Award shortlist. So far I've
read four of the six books, am stalled completely in Peter Hamilton's
"Fallen Dragon" (what the *hell* is this doing on the Clarke Award
shortlist?) with Gwynneth Jones' "Bold as Love" yet to go. I'm slightly
dreading "Bold as Love" -- I tend to bounce hard off her books, even
though they're usually extremely good -- but, frankly, I've already come
to one conclusion: half the six-book shortlist is TOO DAMNED LONG. Mappa
Mundi, Fallen Dragon, and Passage are all in the five to six hundred
page category. More importantly, inside each of them is a decent three
hundred page novel struggling to get out. (In contrast, Pashazade _is_
a decent three hundred page novel, and The Secret of Life is a five
hundred page novel that _felt_ like a three hundred page novel.)
Maybe some shady literary gangsters have been going round the London
publishing houses finding editors and making them aware that if they
insist on doing their jobs they might have a little "accident". Or
something.
Life is far, far too short. I can understand wanting to write a three
hundred page novel that feels like five hundred pages' worth of depth
and texture and characterisation, but applying the same technique to a
tree-killing doorstop doesn't improve it: more is not always better, and
the trick with a really long book is not to make it feel like a marathon.
-- Charlie
Charlie Stross
> You need to put in SF markers, apparently: I can think of robots and
> space-ships; light sabres would be good; a princess, because obviously
> government in the future will be based on the hereditary principle;
Actually, to drag this thread even further off-topic, if you go for some
kinds of mature biotechnologies a return to the hereditary principle
(sort-of) makes a scary sort of sense. ObSF: "The Eyes of Heisenberg". One
of Herbert's more underrated books, IMO.
> plots
> are optional and if what you come up with has depth, pathos or substance,
> then try to delete it. Oh, yes, add a cutie -- a small furry animal or robot
> that the
> kids can relate to and go 'aah' when it's in trouble or says something cute.
> Cute things in general.. Cool machines. A
> protag with either big muscles or a drug habit. Anything cool, really. Ask
> around for others. Did I mention something cool? And cute? Cool _and_ cute
> would be cool.
Didn't you forget to mention the bad guy who wears black and (if he has
a face) twirls his moustachios?
-- Charlie
Miguel Farah F.
>Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
>What is involved in an SF book?
Anything by Kevin J. Anderson is instantly perfect SF. Really.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"Just don't create a file called -rf."
- Larry Wall
Miguel Farah F.
>Ray wrote in message ...
>:
>:"Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>:news:GtDw4...@kithrup.com...
>:> In article <VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
>:> >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science
>Fiction
>:Genre.
>:> >What is involved in an SF book?
>:> Just get in your time machine and go back a few weeks so that
>you
>:> have time to research the answer.
>:
>:
>report. I
>:suggest starting with _Ash_.
>:
>_Ash_ is a good idea, but it needs to be followed by Peter F
>Hamilton's _Night's Dawn_, and Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars_.
>_Otherland_ and wrap up the night with Wingrove's _Chung Kuo_.
>Some of these may only be available in multi-part editions,
>sadly.
He should also get hold of Shea & Wilson's _Illuminatus!_.
And while he's taking a break, _Medea: Harlan's World_, to take things
from a slightly different perpespective.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"Life sucks!"
"Yeah, yeah. Then you die!"
- Beavis and Butt-head
Miguel Farah F.
>"Glenn Smith" <kral...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>> Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
>> What is involved in an SF book?
>Replicators, transporters, photon torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared
>beings - these are the key elements of all sci-fi. If a book misses any of
>these, it is not scifi. These are the FOUR KEY ELEMENTS that you would do
>well to talk about in your assignment; discuss them and pass, ignore them
>and fail.
I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
I am shocked at your ignorance, Cyde. SHOCKED.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"Simple, change the gravitational constant of the Universe."
- Q
David Langford
<cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>I'm going to Helicon next weekend and for my sins I've been drafted
>onto a panel discussing this year's Clarke Award shortlist. So far I've
>read four of the six books, am stalled completely in Peter Hamilton's
>"Fallen Dragon" (what the *hell* is this doing on the Clarke Award
>shortlist?)
As a public service we provide the Langford potted review, coming to a =New
York Review of SF= boxed featurette some time this year:
[SPOILER WARNING, by the way]
"Peter F. Hamilton, =Fallen Dragon=: as a change from the vastness of the
Night's Dawn trilogy, this is a standalone work of a mere 647 pages, barely
a novelette by Hamiltonian standards. Readers of the trilogy's final volume
=The Naked God= will remember that, after a long and fraught interstellar
chase, the entity of the title is finally encountered and proves to be a
cosmic =deus ex machina= capable of fixing every single outstanding plot
problem, which it duly does. In =Fallen Dragon=, after a long and fraught
interstellar chase, the ultimately encountered 'dragon' proves to be ...
but perhaps you're ahead of me already."
By the way, having idly googled today for information on the Very Important
Computer Language INTERCAL, I was delighted to find that the major
non-technical reference on the net is an article by one C. Stross.
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/
Dan Goodman
> Brooks, glad at least to know that media and written sf are finally
> being considered the same genre again, as they ought to be.
Visual media currently have certain restraints, which preclude the kinds
of sf I like most.
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
I've seen it mostly in soc.history.medieval, but the only sci.* group
that I read these days is sci.lang, and there aren't too many people
writing low-level papers in linguistics; perhaps it's worse elsewhere.
(Not in math, though, thanks to groups like alt.math.undergrad and
alt.algebra.help whose purpose is to answer questions.)
Brian
Neil Barnes
<fv4p9uog6kj1b4ae9...@4ax.com>:
> In =Fallen Dragon=, after a long and
> fraught interstellar chase, the ultimately encountered 'dragon' proves
> to be ... but perhaps you're ahead of me already."
>
I'm still trying to work out *any* economic system that works with corporate
raiders like those guys!
--
I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost...
barnacle
http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
Cyde Weys
> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:14:57 GMT, "Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> > >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> > >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> > >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
> > >photon
> > >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
> > >>
> > >> Farscape.
> > >>
> > >> HTH. HAND.
> > >
> > >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population
...
> > >
> > No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
> > lose the humor, she ignored it.
>
> Belated addendum:
>
> Farscape is a television show.
>
>
> Do you get the joke /now/?
Not really ... so you're saying science fiction is restricted to literature
ONLY and may not include other forms of media?
James Nicoll
Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>David Langford <ans...@cix.co.uk> wrote in
><fv4p9uog6kj1b4ae9...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>> In =Fallen Dragon=, after a long and
>> fraught interstellar chase, the ultimately encountered 'dragon' proves
>> to be ... but perhaps you're ahead of me already."
>>
>
>I'm still trying to work out *any* economic system that works with corporate
>raiders like those guys!
>
>
jiggered the books so it looks like it does.
--
"I think you mean 'Could libertarian slave-owning Confederates, led by
SHWIers, have pulled off a transatlantic invasion of Britain, in revenge
for the War of 1812, if they had nukes acquired from the Sea of Time?'"
Alison Brooks (? - 2002)
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> "Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> > Belated addendum:
> >
> > Farscape is a television show.
> >
> >
> > Do you get the joke /now/?
>
> Not really ... so you're saying science fiction is restricted to literature
> ONLY and may not include other forms of media?
No, I'm saying that the thought police, in my experience, seem to be of
that opinion; if "sci-fi" is defined by the thought police, the fact
that Farscape is a television show makes the comment correct; if
"sci-fi" is defined by people who take it as a generic, the fact that
Farscape is damn good makes the comment correct.
Forget it. Americans don't do irony.
Brooks Moses
> > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:14:57 GMT, "Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
> > > >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters, photon
> > > >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
> > > >>
> > > >> Farscape.
> > > >>
> > > >> HTH. HAND.
> > > >
> > > >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population
> > Farscape is a television show.
> >
> > Do you get the joke /now/?
>
> Not really ... so you're saying science fiction is restricted to literature
> ONLY and may not include other forms of media?
I think the joke is riffing off the fact that a substantial segment of
the online denizens of rasff in particular (and also of rasfc; witness
Marilee's comment) tend to be violently opposed to the use of "sci-fi"
as a short form of "science fiction" -- as I understand it, they claim
that it's a derogatory term that refers to space opera and startrekian
media sf, and that it's insulting to use it for the type of sf they like
to read. This segment seems to have very strong overlap with the
segment that claims that there exists no media sf of any value or worth,
and that the only real fandom is readers not viewers, and suchlike.
Thus, it would seem that these people, despite those pair of violent
objections, might still claim that Farscape is "good sci-fi" on the
grounds that it's media sf and so it must fall into this "derogatory"
sci-fi category.
(Heather, I do think that getting this bit of humor relies a fair bit on
being familiar with the recent large quantities of flamewar in rasff on
these subjects, and quite possibly also on knowing your positions on the
matter. Without that familiarity, the irony _does_ get lost.)
- Brooks
Mary K. Kuhner
[homework queries]
>I've seen it mostly in soc.history.medieval, but the only sci.* group
>that I read these days is sci.lang, and there aren't too many people
>writing low-level papers in linguistics; perhaps it's worse elsewhere.
>(Not in math, though, thanks to groups like alt.math.undergrad and
>alt.algebra.help whose purpose is to answer questions.)
For reasons I don't understand, comp.lang.c++.moderated is having
a huge wave of homework requests right now. It's like September
all over again.
I wonder if the whole modern scheme of homework is going to be
destroyed by the Net, the Web, expert systems and eventually AI.
If you have a program that can do your homework for you,
indetectably...and then, if you have it in your head.... At that
point maybe the only ability worth testing anymore is the ability
to use the software well (creatively, effectively, efficiently).
I stayed up late last night grading papers, and was really
displeased and baffled by half a dozen answers that went like
this:
Q: What will happen when this organism tries to mate with a
normal individual?
A: All, or half [answers varied] of its offspring will be
deeply defective and probably die. [this is correct]
Q: So, will this trait be able to establish itself in the
population?
A: Sure, no problem!
I am frightened and puzzled by the mental process that led to this
answer. I'm glad it's not my course (though I have to teach it
next year, and then it will be) because I'd be very insecure about
my teaching abilities...and yet, *can* I teach the mental knack
that is needed to avoid producing the above? To a twenty-year-old?
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I wonder if the whole modern scheme of homework is going to be
> destroyed by the Net, the Web, expert systems and eventually AI.
Big sigh. Translation isn't. You still have to hunt down a lot of word
by hand. Which reminds me why I connected in the first place... (goes to
do some righteous research).
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
httpp://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
Mary K. Kuhner
I tried to explain it. Unfortunately I can't cancel articles.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Mary K. Kuhner
Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
>news:1f9h3wh.ne...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
>> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:14:57 GMT, "Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net>
>> > wrote:
>> > >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
>> > >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
>> > >photon
>> > >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
>> > >>
>> > >> Farscape.
>> > >>
>> > >> HTH. HAND.
>> > >
>> > >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population
>...
>> > >
>> > No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
>> > lose the humor, she ignored it.
>>
>> Belated addendum:
>>
>> Farscape is a television show.
>>
>>
>> Do you get the joke /now/?
>
>Not really ... so you're saying science fiction is restricted to literature
>ONLY and may not include other forms of media?
If I may intervene...I believe she was gently adding on to the
original joke (the idea that Star Trek defines SF) by disputing it,
but disputing it in a way (putting forward another TV show) that
actually reinforces the original idea of the joke.
It's as if someone said sarcastically, "So, men are only good for
carrying heavy loads?" and someone else replied "No, they're also
useful at stud."
Neither reply is meant seriously.
I've probably spoiled everything by trying to explain--jokes are
like that.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Brian M. Scott
(Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)) wrote:
[...]
>Forget it. Americans don't do irony.
Oh, not in the least.
Brian
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> I tried to explain it. Unfortunately I can't cancel articles.
No, it's quite all right.
I consider other interpretations of it to be entirely valid, even if
they weren't the ones I intended when I made it. :}
Cyde Weys
"Mary K. Kuhner" <mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:a7irmj$lca$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Ray wrote:
>
>>
>> I think that everyone is having *way* too much fun with this one. I
>> wonder if Glenn Smith had any idea what he was getting into.
>>
>
>I am sure of it -- it was probably his intention. I can't imagine
>anybody who is as clueless as that, and _still_ knows enough about
>Usenet to find a moderately on-topic news group.
Well, he isn't posting from AOL, but when I volunteered, I got
requests for me to do people's homework all the time. Frequently it
was needed the next day.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
In the sci.space.* groups, the homework askers are overtaken by the
astrology and alien enthusiasts.
Marilee J. Layman
(Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)) wrote:
>Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:14:57 GMT, "Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>> >"Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)" <lila...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1f9gusd.1mq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com...
>> >> Cyde Weys <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> > I cannot think of ANY good scifi without replicators, transporters,
>> >photon
>> >> > torpedoes, and logical pointy-eared beings ... can you?!!!?
>> >>
>> >> Farscape.
>> >>
>> >> HTH. HAND.
>> >
>> >*Sigh* ... the humor is always lost on some segment of the population ...
>> >
>> No, Heather thinks sci-fi is the right term for our genre. She didn't
>> lose the humor, she ignored it.
>
>Belated addendum:
>
>Farscape is a television show.
>
>
>Do you get the joke /now/?
That's not really a joke. Farscape *is* good scifi. As SF, it's not
so good, but it's the best SF on TV with the possible exception of
Stargate SG-1. New eps start 4/5.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:33:41 +1100, "Glenn Smith"
><kral...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction Genre.
>>What is involved in an SF book?
>
>Due tomorrow? As in Saturday? Tough school.
No, look at the relationship to GMT -- he posted late Thursday night,
his time.
Cyde Weys
"Marilee J. Layman" <mjla...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:o28q9ukkl9n1hvd7p...@4ax.com...
Agh! What's the diff between scifi and SF? Don't they stand for the same
thing - science fiction?!?!
Dan Blum
True. sci.math mostly gets people who want to disprove Cantor's
multiple-infinity proof, people who want everyone to do math in
hexadecimal, and people who think they have simple proofs of Fermat's
Last Theorem (well, this last is really just one guy, but he posts
enough for 20 normal people).
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum to...@panix.com
"I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't just made it up."
Brian M. Scott
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
[...]
>In the sci.space.* groups, the homework askers are overtaken by the
>astrology and alien enthusiasts.
I believe it: the cranks long ago took over sci.archaeology
completely.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
(Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
[...]
>I stayed up late last night grading papers, and was really
>displeased and baffled by half a dozen answers that went like
>this:
>Q: What will happen when this organism tries to mate with a
>normal individual?
>A: All, or half [answers varied] of its offspring will be
>deeply defective and probably die. [this is correct]
>Q: So, will this trait be able to establish itself in the
>population?
>A: Sure, no problem!
>I am frightened and puzzled by the mental process that led to this
>answer. I'm glad it's not my course (though I have to teach it
>next year, and then it will be) because I'd be very insecure about
>my teaching abilities...and yet, *can* I teach the mental knack
>that is needed to avoid producing the above? To a twenty-year-old?
You can foster it in those students who already have some trace of it
and who are willing to do more than go through the motions, but I
doubt that you can do much more than that. Recognizing
inconsistencies and absurdities requires thinking at least a little
about what one has written down.
Brian
patricia bowne
>
> "Wilson Heydt" <whh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> news:GtDw4...@kithrup.com...
> > In article <VwEm8.17478$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> > >Help me!!! I have an assignment die tomorrow on the Science Fiction
> Genre.
> > >What is involved in an SF book?
> >
> > have time to research the answer.
>
>
> In which Calvin, realizing that he's only got half an hour to finish his
> homework before bedtime, spends that remaining time to build a time machine
> to go back through time to kick his pass self into a more productive mode.
> Of course, Calvin being Calvin, each past Calvin is blaming the Calvin
> before him... I think the strip ends with Hobbes being surrounded by a bunch
> of Calvins blaming each other for not finishing the homework.
>
The strip ends with two Hobbeses from different times collaborating on
the homework, which is an illustrated short story about how Calvin, the
time-traveling idiot, screwed everything up while Hobbes, the handsome
tiger, saved the day. It gets an 'A'.
Don't ask me how I know the plots to so many comic strips.
Pat
Ray
"Cyde Weys" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:KI9n8.1603$n%1.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
<snip>
> Agh! What's the diff between scifi and SF? Don't they stand for the same
> thing - science fiction?!?!
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to ask that exact question
in rec.arts.sf.fandom, then read every reply in the long thread that it
generates.
<wg>
Ray
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>True. sci.math mostly gets people who want to disprove Cantor's
>multiple-infinity proof,
Boy, does it ever! I've never understood how such an easy idea could
cause so much trouble.
>people who want everyone to do math in hexadecimal,
Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
*not* 1' folks.
>and people who think they have simple proofs of Fermat's
>Last Theorem (well, this last is really just one guy, but he posts
>enough for 20 normal people).
Is he *still* at it? (Assuming that this is the fellow with the
intricate but elementary calculations in which he keeps getting lost.)
I quit when I realized that Ilias K. and Fred Galvin were almost the
only people I was consistently reading.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>Agh! What's the diff between scifi and SF? Don't they stand for the same
>thing - science fiction?!?!
Not to a great many people. Dig up the recent thread in which
'sci-fi' and 'scifi' and people's reactions to them were discussed at
some length and with considerable heat. And even apart from that
issue there are those for whom 'SF' is 'speculative fiction' rather
than 'science fiction'.
Brian
Karen Lofstrom
> I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
> everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
in rasfc: handwaving.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cthulhu vs. a bunch of Nazis? Oh, I am sure *our* side would win hands
down!" -- Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Sea Wasp
>
> In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>
> > I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
> > everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>
> There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
> in rasfc: handwaving.
Taken to extremes, this is called TREKnobabble.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Brian M. Scott
>In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>> I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
>> everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
>in rasfc: handwaving.
Surely technobabble is a specific form of handwaving?
Brian
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
This is what Brooks alluded to -- some of us reserve scifi for
schlocky stuff, extruded SF product. For others, there's no
difference.
Marilee J. Layman
Nah, Google will bring up the past threads!
Mary K. Kuhner
> Mary K. Kuhner <mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu> onsendan:
>> Q: So, will this trait be able to establish itself in the
>> population?
>> A: Sure, no problem!
>> I am frightened and puzzled by the mental process that led to this
>> answer.
>That's pretty darn bizarre. Did they do generational simulations at
>all?
Yes, they did, using a computer program. I am wondering whether to
make them do it with something physical instead, maybe beans or
beads. "Look. All the black beans have gone. Do you think this
might mean something?"
(There are also students in that class who seem to be as good or
better at this stuff than I am, which is reassuring. But I wish
there were something to do for the ones who missed out on
basic logic somewhere down the line.)
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Neil Barnes
$ndu$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>:
I can't help feeling that the easy availability of answers - even (in the
future) the availability of AIs - will lead to people who are able to get
the right answer most of the time, but will never even realise that the
answer they get *could* be wrong. This was happening with kids and
calculators twenty years ago - punch the buttons but never realise that you
hit the wrong one because there's no 'sense of rightness' regarding the
answer.
--
I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost...
barnacle
http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
Dan Blum
> wrote:
> [...]
>>True. sci.math mostly gets people who want to disprove Cantor's
>>multiple-infinity proof,
> Boy, does it ever! I've never understood how such an easy idea could
> cause so much trouble.
A lot of people find it counter-intuitive for some reason. Some of those
people take it personally. Some fairly intelligent people, even -
there was a somewhat notable physicist (Bridgeman, I think his name was)
who refused to accept the proof (no specific objection offered).
>>people who want everyone to do math in hexadecimal,
> Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
> *not* 1' folks.
Right, I had forgotten all about those. Infinity just generally
seems to be a problem.
>>and people who think they have simple proofs of Fermat's
>>Last Theorem (well, this last is really just one guy, but he posts
>>enough for 20 normal people).
> Is he *still* at it? (Assuming that this is the fellow with the
> intricate but elementary calculations in which he keeps getting lost.)
Dunno if it's the same guy (I don't recognize the names you mention below,
so I expect you stopped reading the group before I started), but it seems
likely (I gather he's been at it a while). Last I looked he was still
unable to grasp the concept of a ring, or at least unable to grasp that
he needed to define what ring he was operating in (he was also demonstrating
incipient megalomania, I think, but I'm not a psychiatrist).
> I quit when I realized that Ilias K. and Fred Galvin were almost the
> only people I was consistently reading.
There are a goodly number of real mathematicians on the group, but
they spend much of their time arguing with the people mentioned
above. I've stopped reading it myself as it gets pretty repetitious.
Ray
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:3c9d5c7d....@enews.newsguy.com...
I don't know... I'll have to think about that.
I consider handwaving to be the lack of an explanation. Do you know how
your computer works? Unless you are a geek (guilty!), you just need to know
how to operate it. You don't need to know how the transistors are put
together to form logic gates, and how the logic gates are put together to
form adders and flip-flops and all that stuff.
By the same token, I created a small thermonuclear powerplant for my
protagonist's antique Jeep, but I never give any details about how it
works - or even what it fuses. I have some technical details in mind, but I
am not sharing them with the readers. Maybe later, I'll put it in a
technical manual and sell it the same way that one can buy the blueprints
for the U.S.S. Enterprise or an atlas of Pern.
Technobabble, on the other hand, is an attempted explanation that will cause
anyone with a high school education in basic science and technology to roll
his eyes and mutter under his breath. That includes things like "polarizing
the deflectors", time going backwards as you pass the speed of light, and
other such nonsense.
Ray Drouillard
Julie Pascal
"Charlie Stross" <cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote in message
news:slrna9ov5d....@raq981.uk2net.com.antipope.org...
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <j...@floodsclimbers.freeserve.co.uk> declared:
>
> > You need to put in SF markers, apparently: I can think of robots and
> > space-ships; light sabres would be good; a princess, because obviously
> > government in the future will be based on the hereditary principle;
>
> Actually, to drag this thread even further off-topic, if you go for some
> kinds of mature biotechnologies a return to the hereditary principle
> (sort-of) makes a scary sort of sense. ObSF: "The Eyes of Heisenberg". One
> of Herbert's more underrated books, IMO.
Tenchi?
--Julie
Julie Pascal
"Karen Lofstrom" <lofs...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:a7jlst$qeg$2...@mochi.lava.net...
> In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>
> > I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
> > everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>
> There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
> in rasfc: handwaving.
Except that it is quite possible to handwave without
technobabbling.
I'll agree that the key, however, is doing either of these
to "solve" a problem.
--Julie
Julian Flood
"Marilee J. Layman" wrote
> New eps start 4/5.
Is that the 4th of May or the 5th of April? Let's be logical about this.
Day, month, year runs in sequence. So 10/7/46 means the tenth day of the
seventh month of the 46th year. 4/5 means fourth day of fifth month.
I realise that this might be difficult to swing, but could you please tell
everyone in the US to get it right?
A quid pro quo. I'll try to reform the English spelling of 'humour', OK?
It'll be a rench but worth it.
JF
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> Is that the 4th of May or the 5th of April? Let's be logical about this.
> Day, month, year runs in sequence. So 10/7/46 means the tenth day of the
> seventh month of the 46th year. 4/5 means fourth day of fifth month.
>
> I realise that this might be difficult to swing, but could you please tell
> everyone in the US to get it right?
/I/ do it right.
Gives me a bitch of a time trying to fill out forms when I'm trying to
remember if I should state my birthday as 2/3 or 3/2. This is after
I've gone to the effort of remembering what my birthday actually *is*,
which is sometimes the harder bit.
It was quite a relief to be filling out customs forms when entering the
UK and realizing suddenly that the dates were all the right way 'round.
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Dreams are not lost, they merely fall beneath the ashes of what is left
To the soul from where it starts to where it catches.
- "Matter," Josh Joplin Group
Chris Dollin
b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) writes:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:11:24 +0000 (UTC), to...@panix.com (Dan Blum)
> wrote:
>
>>people who want everyone to do math in hexadecimal,
>
> Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
> *not* 1' folks.
There's a hex freak posts occasionally to comp.lang.c, name of "ThinkIt".
Glitched me when I first saw one of their posts.
PS 0.9999... isn't 1. It's just an alternative representation of the
same value. (ducks)
--
Paddling Hedgehog
Miguel Farah F.
>In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>> I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
>> everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
>in rasfc: handwaving.
Ah, but handwaving is a general tool available to all genres of
literature. Technobabble, on th other hand, is proper in SF only.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"- What do you think of the world situation?
- I couldn't think of a better place for it!"
- B.C.
Zeborah
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> > Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
> > *not* 1' folks.
>
> Right, I had forgotten all about those. Infinity just generally
> seems to be a problem.
Maybe because it's a little, um, larger than we normally have to deal
with in our everyday lives. I'm not sure our brains were set up with
infinity in mind. I certainly have vivid recollections of my father
telling me about a ninth being 0.111..., and two ninths being 0.222...,
and so nine ninths being 0.999..., and thereby puzzling me as to how
come nine ninths didn't equal one.
Zeborah
--
Semper ad eventum festinet. -- Horace
"Always party hard at social events." <eg>
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
Kristopher
You can keep the spellings.
I'd just like to see the US switch to metric, and the world
switch to putting the , and the . in the correct place in
numbers. 234,709,456.98058474 for example, and not
234.709.456,98058474 as I've seen the likes of more than one.
A period is a bigger deliniator than a comma, and it just
makes sense for it to be the sperator between the integer
and the fractional sides, or whatever the hell they're called.
--
Kristopher
"I'd like to trade in this shovel for what's behind Door #2.
Oh, look, a backhoe."
Tim S
> Dan Blum <to...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>> Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
>>> *not* 1' folks.
>>
>> Right, I had forgotten all about those. Infinity just generally
>> seems to be a problem.
>
> Maybe because it's a little, um, larger than we normally have to deal
> with in our everyday lives. I'm not sure our brains were set up with
> infinity in mind. I certainly have vivid recollections of my father
> telling me about a ninth being 0.111..., and two ninths being 0.222...,
> and so nine ninths being 0.999..., and thereby puzzling me as to how
> come nine ninths didn't equal one.
>
Yes, but the problem isn't so much with people who have confused,
inconsistent notions of infinity (which is understandable) as with people
who don't think that confusion and inconsistency are a good reason to get
rid of those notions and replace them with clear, consistent ones.
Tim
Brian M. Scott
(Chris Dollin) wrote:
[...]
>PS 0.9999... isn't 1. It's just an alternative representation of the
>same value. (ducks)
Piffle. Can't fool me; I've spent far too much time hanging around
Quine's Corners. 0.9999... = 1; '0.9999...' and '1' are alternative
representations of the same value.
>Paddling Hedgehog
<hmph> A sea urchin. Might have known.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<j...@floodsclimbers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"Marilee J. Layman" wrote
> > New eps start 4/5.
>Is that the 4th of May or the 5th of April? Let's be logical about this.
>Day, month, year runs in sequence. So 10/7/46 means the tenth day of the
>seventh month of the 46th year. 4/5 means fourth day of fifth month.
>I realise that this might be difficult to swing, but could you please tell
>everyone in the US to get it right?
Some of us -- possibly even an increasing number -- do. Consequently,
I never give the month as a number unless forced by a form to do so.
(Drives clerks nuts when I answer a request for my birthday with '13
May 1948', though.)
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>news:3c9d5c7d....@enews.newsguy.com...
>> On 24 Mar 2002 04:49:33 GMT, lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote:
>> >In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>> >> I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
>> >> everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>> >There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
>> >in rasfc: handwaving.
>> Surely technobabble is a specific form of handwaving?
>I don't know... I'll have to think about that.
>I consider handwaving to be the lack of an explanation.
That certainly isn't how I understand it or how it's used by
mathematicians. Handwaving is words (and sometimes gestures)
substituting for an explanation and intended to sound at least
moderately convincing. In mathematics it's an informal, non-rigorous
argument intended to explain why one thinks that the result ought to
be true even though one hasn't yet proved it (or occasionally to give
the flavor of the argument without the messy details).
[...]
>Technobabble, on the other hand, is an attempted explanation that will cause
>anyone with a high school education in basic science and technology to roll
>his eyes and mutter under his breath.
Which, with the exception of the last qualification, is exactly what I
mean by handwaving; the only difference is that handwaving need not
involve science and technology. The last clause makes your definition
of 'technobabble' more restrictive than mine. What you're describing
is low- to mid-range technobabble. It can be considerably better done
and still (in my opinion) qualify as technobabble.
[...]
Brian
Neil Barnes
<1f9j6cb.1fq...@h000a2789fa80.ne.client2.attbi.com>:
> It was quite a relief to be filling out customs forms when entering the
> UK and realizing suddenly that the dates were all the right way 'round.
IIRC, the last time I filled in the visa waiver and customs forms for the
US, the dates were the proper dd/mm/yyyy way round.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> But I wish
> there were something to do for the ones who missed out on
> basic logic somewhere down the line.)
Don't we all...
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
httpp://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
Virginia E. Jolly
And how about that .000000000001 gram of plant hormone you have just
extracted from your pea plant mash so you can do growth experiments?
It's enough to do something.
Jonathan Hendry
"Chris Dollin" <hedg...@electric-hedgehog.net> wrote in message
news:9auj7a...@electric-hedgehog.net...
> In article <3c9d348d....@enews.newsguy.com>,
> b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) writes:
> > On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:11:24 +0000 (UTC), to...@panix.com (Dan Blum)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>people who want everyone to do math in hexadecimal,
> >
> > Never saw one of those. But I remember more than a few '0.9999... is
> > *not* 1' folks.
>
> There's a hex freak posts occasionally to comp.lang.c, name of "ThinkIt".
> Glitched me when I first saw one of their posts.
I just think it's well past time for hexadecimal phone numbers.
No more of this umpteen-digit local calling nonsense.
Sea Wasp
>
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:27:03 GMT, hedg...@electric-hedgehog.net
> (Chris Dollin) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >PS 0.9999... isn't 1. It's just an alternative representation of the
> >same value. (ducks)
>
> Piffle. Can't fool me; I've spent far too much time hanging around
> Quine's Corners. 0.9999... = 1; '0.9999...' and '1' are alternative
> representations of the same value.
I'd say that 0.99999... --> 1.00000... . However far out you take the
.99999..., it's always missing that (undefined sigma) to push it over
to the 1.000. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be .9999..., but 1.000...
As you extend the .9999 out to infinity, the sigma goes to zero, but
it can't ever get to zero without the two both BEING 1.00... .
Marilee J. Layman
<j...@floodsclimbers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
When I only write two numbers, month & day, I do it that way. When I
write an entire date, I do it 5 April 2002 or 20020405.
David T. Bilek
<mig...@nn.cl> wrote:
>Karen Lofstrom <lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
>>In article <a7i4j9$hn$3...@usenet.nivel5.cl>, Miguel Farah F. wrote:
>
>>> I CANNOT bellieve you've forgotten the fifth key: technobabble. When
>>> everything else fails, technobabble your way out of tthe problem.
>
>>There's another technical term for that, and I think it's used more often
>>in rasfc: handwaving.
>
>Ah, but handwaving is a general tool available to all genres of
>literature. Technobabble, on th other hand, is proper in SF only.
>
And I agree with whoever objected to the idea that handwaving and
technobabble are the same thing.
If two people are on a spaceship with an FTL drive and the characters
don't know how it works, just that it does, that's handwaving.
If one of the characters explains that the drive works by reversing
the polarizing flow of tachyons in the space-time matrix, that's
technobabble.
-David
Jonathan L Cunningham
In context, assuming the two paragraphs are related, 0.99999... is
a representation of 3/5 (three fifths).
--
Jonathan L Cunningham
Brian M. Scott
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:27:03 GMT, hedg...@electric-hedgehog.net
>> (Chris Dollin) wrote:
>> [...]
>> >PS 0.9999... isn't 1. It's just an alternative representation of the
>> >same value. (ducks)
>> Piffle. Can't fool me; I've spent far too much time hanging around
>> Quine's Corners. 0.9999... = 1; '0.9999...' and '1' are alternative
>> representations of the same value.
> I'd say that 0.99999... --> 1.00000... . However far out you take the
>.99999..., it's always missing that (undefined sigma) to push it over
>to the 1.000. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be .9999..., but 1.000...
NO! NO!! NO!!! THIS IS WRONG. There is no question of taking it to
some point and stopping; that isn't what '0.999...' means. The
expression 0.999... denotes the *non-terminating* decimal. By
definition this is the sum of the infinite series sum_{k=1}^inf
(9/10^k). That sum is by definition the limit of the finite sums
sum_{k=1}^n(9/10^k) as n --> inf. That limit is easily shown to be
exactly 1.
[...]
Brian
Karen Lofstrom
> I'd say that 0.99999... --> 1.00000... . However far out you take the
> .99999..., it's always missing that (undefined sigma) to push it over
> to the 1.000. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be .9999..., but 1.000...
I can't help feeling that they are not the same, BUT since I know that I
can get arbitrarily close, I do not worry about the difference. It's good
enough for government work :)
If I became a real mathematician, like Brian, I am sure I would understand
this.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe in your linear fascist patriarchal "correct" spelling
scheme, it is, but some of us like to thonk outside the bqx
a little. -- Ray Radlein
Ray
I'll accept your definition of handwaving.
Technobabble, on the other hand, needs to be meaningless to be babble.
"We must shut down the reactor at least ten minutes before we lose coolant
because it takes that long for the transmuted isotopes to decay to the point
where the heat output is small enough to keep from melting the core."
The above is technical, but not babble. It is a correct assessment of some
of the issues in shutting down a fission reactor.
"We must boost harder so that we can get past light speed before we hit the
delta sector".
The above is techno - it is designed to sound impressive, but it blatantly
flies in the face of what we know about relativity.
"In order to make the jump, we must position ourselves at the jump point,
then create a gravitational disturbance that opens the wormhole and pushes
us through."
That one is questionable. If the author has built a universe that supports
that technology, and it is well thought-out, you can make a case that it
isn't techno.
It's kind of like trying to separate pornography from art. The boundaries
are slippery. When the author is working from a consistent theoretical
base, it generally isn't babble. OTOH, when the author is simply stringing
together a bunch of impressive-sounding words, it's babble.
Ray Drouillard
Ray
"David T. Bilek" <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3c9e4800....@netnews.attbi.com...
That sounds like a good enough explanation to me.
Ray
Ray
"Kristopher" <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote in message
news:3c9e03e1$0$1416$bbae...@news.net-link.net...
We also need to get the definition of "billion" straight.
Thousand = 10^3
Million = 10^6
Billion = 10^9 (NOT 10^12)
Quadrillion = 10^12
Quintillion = 10^15
sextillion
septillion
octillion
etc...
Ray Drouillard
Miguel Farah F.
That's the 'sissies' definition. Real Homo Sapiens know a billion is
10^12.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"In the beginning was the Word. Then came the fucking word processor.
Then came the thought processor. Then came the death of literature. And
so it goes."
- Martin Silenus, _Hyperion_