Magic realism?
Neil Barnes
news:jswartzfeger-93FF...@news.west.cox.net:
> The reason I'm asking is because the short I just finished is
> (in my mind) a fantasy, but in a contemporary setting with
> none of the usual fantasy trappings.
>
> TIA, googling isn't as useful as it usually is. Some claim
> magic realism is strictly a Spanish- or Latin-American (white
> folk need not apply), some say it's inclusive... the
> definitions go on and on.
>
> Any input appreciated!
>
Have you read the works of Louis de Bernieres? 'The War of Don
Emmanuel's Nether Parts', 'Senor Vivo and the Coca Lords', 'The
Troublesome Offspring of Cardinal Guzman'? All are highly
recommended.
All are set in a mythical Latin American country, but he's
British born and bred - a minor bio at
http://books.guardian.co.uk/authors/author/0,5917,-52,00.html
--
Neil
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is the same name at ntlworld com.
Chris Dollin
Jay Swartzfeger <jswart...@cox.net> writes:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm currently scouring the SF/F/H market lists and notice many
> publications accept stories classified as 'magic realism'.
>
> What is 'magic realism'? I'm guessing it's like urban fantasy -- set in
> our own time -- but without the usual fantasy backdrops of elves,
> dwarves, dragons, etc. (or horror props like blood, gore, monsters, etc).
I seem to recall Terry Pratchett saying that magic realism is fantasy
in a top hat and tails (or was it "a suit") - it's fantasy, but it's
written by Serious Literary Types, so it's allowed to be Good, and
mustn't be confused with that hacky genre stuff (everything after that
"-" is me speaking, not me quoting Pterry).
--
Magically Surreal Hedgehog
Dan Goodman
> Hi all,
>
> I'm currently scouring the SF/F/H market lists and notice many
> publications accept stories classified as 'magic realism'.
>
> What is 'magic realism'?
Here's the bad news -- there's no good, clear definition. None. And
even if there was, what a particular editor meant by it might not fit
any defintion other than that one editor's. (And for kinds of fiction
which DO have good, clear definitions, you'll still have to find out
what each editor _means_ by them.)
To find out what each editor means by it, you'll need to read the
publication.
To find out what it means in general, you'll need to read a bunch of
stories which are generally agreed to be magical realism.
> I'm guessing it's like urban fantasy -- set in
> our own time -- but without the usual fantasy backdrops of elves,
> dwarves, dragons, etc. (or horror props like blood, gore, monsters,
> etc).
It has to be literary. Unless, for that particular editor, it doesn't.
> Is magic realism simply a specualtive fiction sub-genre set it our own
> time that contains supernatural elements, but no obvious elements from
> fantasy, horror, or SF?
> Just trying to think of an example... would King's "The Green Mile"
> pass as magic realism? Kafka, some Phillip K. Dick maybe?
King isn't literary enough. Kafka might be considered a magical realist
if he were writing today. Phil Dick's worlds are too strange, and he's
probably not literary enough.
> The reason I'm asking is because the short I just finished is (in my
> mind) a fantasy, but in a contemporary setting with none of the usual
> fantasy trappings.
>
> TIA, googling isn't as useful as it usually is.
Sure it is!! The reason it didn't bring you a good, clear, usable
definition is that THERE IS NONE.
Suzanne A Blom
Jay Swartzfeger <jswart...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jswartzfeger-93FF...@news.west.cox.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm currently scouring the SF/F/H market lists and notice many
> publications accept stories classified as 'magic realism'.
>
> our own time -- but without the usual fantasy backdrops of elves,
> dwarves, dragons, etc. (or horror props like blood, gore, monsters, etc).
>
> time that contains supernatural elements, but no obvious elements from
> fantasy, horror, or SF?
>
> Just trying to think of an example... would King's "The Green Mile" pass
> as magic realism? Kafka, some Phillip K. Dick maybe?
>
> mind) a fantasy, but in a contemporary setting with none of the usual
> fantasy trappings.
>
> is strictly a Spanish- or Latin-American (white folk need not apply),
> some say it's inclusive... the definitions go on and on.
>
world that assumes the real world is more magical than most people (outside
the universe of the work in question) believe.
JXStern
<jswart...@cox.net> wrote:
>I'm currently scouring the SF/F/H market lists and notice many
>publications accept stories classified as 'magic realism'.
A Latin-American semi-literary genre where the characters and plots
are generally realistic, but the logic and continuity is not. Just
how far from realistic it gets, is a matter of style.
It occurs to me that the old A-Team series might qualify, where
machine-guns always miss their targets, cars crash and everyone bails
out safely to the lawn or convenient hay-stack, ...
Maybe the recent Raelian cloning story would qualify, too.
Sort of sci-fi, without the technobabble. John and Mary walking down
the street, when they suddenly soar upwards for no apparent reason,
laughing and dropping bread crumbs down for the birds to chase ...
Maybe a William Burroughs or Hunter S. Thompson style could qualify as
norteamericano (norteno?) variants.
Google will quickly turn you up a variety of more or less serious
definitions. Then you can write your own. That's magic realism for
ya!
J.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<JXSternC...@gte.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 06:21:49 GMT, Jay Swartzfeger
> <jswart...@cox.net> wrote:
> >I'm currently scouring the SF/F/H market lists and notice many
> >publications accept stories classified as 'magic realism'.
>
> A Latin-American semi-literary genre where the characters and plots
> are generally realistic, but the logic and continuity is not. Just
> how far from realistic it gets, is a matter of style.
There's a reason for it: the metaphor was designed to disguise content.
Just like surrealism and absurdist literature was for Spain and France,
respectively.
--
_Deirdre http://deirdre.net
"Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up
and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...."
-- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel
Marilee J. Layman
I watched the DVD of Chocolat recently, and that's magic realism --
chocolate can make a man love his wife again, it can make a woman
leave her abusive husband, it can make a grandmother and grandson
overcome their separation enforced by the mother between. The north
wind and traveling is another part of it.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Stuart Houghton
news:am852v0c73u5rv9u7...@4ax.com:
>>
> I watched the DVD of Chocolat recently, and that's magic realism --
> chocolate can make a man love his wife again, it can make a woman
> leave her abusive husband, it can make a grandmother and grandson
> overcome their separation enforced by the mother between. The north
> wind and traveling is another part of it.
>
I think I would probably tag _Chocolat_ as a form of Magical Realism too.
Interestingly, according to the inestimable Mr Langford's fine periodical
_Ansible_...
"AS OTHERS SEE US. A change from the usual litany of contempt for sf and
fantasy! Novelist Joanne Harris of _Chocolat_ fame, asked to choose her
six favourite books for _The Week_ (28 Dec), came up with a distinctly
fannish selection: _The Gormenghast Trilogy_, _Lord of the Flies_,
_Fahrenheit 451_, _Salammbo_, _Lolita_ and Zelazny's _A Rose for
Ecclesiastes_."
--
Stuart Houghton
Brian D. Fernald
My reading of magical realism is somewhat, limited. The above make
sense based on that reading but I would add the following corollary,
'and there is no attempt to justify or rationalize the magic, or the
existence of magic'.
Often in fantasy, or urban fantasy, we justify our magic. We develop
systems that are supposed to make sense to the reader. The limited
amount of magical realism that I've encountered does little of this.
The magic sits there plain as day without explanation, that just happens.
I MR short that I read has the main character sitting in her shrinks
office, discussing various things from her life, when the ocean breaks
in through the window to flood the docter's office. The fact that the
docter's office is far from the seashore. The fact that the ocean
flowing through the window is an impossible occurence does not get
mentioned. No attempt is made to prove to the reader that this could
ever possilbly occur. The lack of explanation does not rob the reader
of the power of the allegory, metaphor, symbol, or image of the sea
running over the window sill. The lack of explanation may in fact
reinforce the basic mystery of the event, allowing the reader to decide
upon its meaning.
--
Brian F.
FSOBN.
Mary Messall
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:19:41 -0600, "Suzanne A Blom"
> <sue...@execpc.com> wrote:
> >Jay Swartzfeger <jswart...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:jswartzfeger-93FF...@news.west.cox.net...
> >> Hi all,
> >> our own time -- but without the usual fantasy backdrops of elves,
> >> dwarves, dragons, etc. (or horror props like blood, gore, monsters, etc).
> >> is strictly a Spanish- or Latin-American (white folk need not apply),
> >> some say it's inclusive... the definitions go on and on.
It was originally coined to describe the work of some Latin American
authors, especially Gabriel García Márquez. The debate is how similar
(and in similar in what ways) something else has to be to those works
in order to merit the term.
> >Tho Dan Goodman is right, I tend to think of it as fiction set in the real
> >world that assumes the real world is more magical than most people (outside
> >the universe of the work in question) believe.
> I watched the DVD of Chocolat recently, and that's magic realism --
> chocolate can make a man love his wife again, it can make a woman
> leave her abusive husband, it can make a grandmother and grandson
> overcome their separation enforced by the mother between. The north
> wind and traveling is another part of it.
I haven't see Chocolat but I do think of Amelie when the words "magic
realism" are mentioned. It has minor fantasy elements, a statue now and
then coming to life just to make a sympathetic face, and a lot of
delightful coincidences throughout.
-Mary
Geoff Wedig
> My reading of magical realism is somewhat, limited. The above make
> sense based on that reading but I would add the following corollary,
> 'and there is no attempt to justify or rationalize the magic, or the
> existence of magic'.
> Often in fantasy, or urban fantasy, we justify our magic. We develop
> systems that are supposed to make sense to the reader. The limited
> amount of magical realism that I've encountered does little of this.
> The magic sits there plain as day without explanation, that just happens.
This is a good point. In much fantasy, we apply logic to the magic. Not
very rigorous logic, in most cases, but logic. In magic realism, magic is
real, but unexplained. In much of it, the magic is an outward display on
and inward development, a metaphor made real, and as such, a rigorous (or
not) logical explanation of why it's there or it happens isn't required.
Hmm, ok, so let's write a fantasy novel where the magic system is that of
magic realism, where the outward mirrors the inward. I'm sure it can be
done. And I think it'd be a very interesting book, quite different from
most of what's out there.
But I'm not going to write it.
Ok, well, not *now*, anyway.
Geoff
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
I've seen Amelie, too, but I thought the fantastic elements were more
amusing than meaningful. Apparently I think magic realism has to be
meaningful.
Brian D. Fernald
> Brian D. Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>My reading of magical realism is somewhat, limited. The above make
>>sense based on that reading but I would add the following corollary,
>>'and there is no attempt to justify or rationalize the magic, or the
>>existence of magic'.
>
>
>>Often in fantasy, or urban fantasy, we justify our magic. We develop
>>systems that are supposed to make sense to the reader. The limited
>>amount of magical realism that I've encountered does little of this.
>>The magic sits there plain as day without explanation, that just happens.
>
>
> This is a good point. In much fantasy, we apply logic to the magic. Not
> very rigorous logic, in most cases, but logic. In magic realism, magic is
> real, but unexplained. In much of it, the magic is an outward display on
> and inward development, a metaphor made real, and as such, a rigorous (or
> not) logical explanation of why it's there or it happens isn't required.
>
Frex, Ally McBeal, if we look at the little mental bits as having a
measure of reality, other then just occuring in her mind.
> Hmm, ok, so let's write a fantasy novel where the magic system is that of
> magic realism, where the outward mirrors the inward. I'm sure it can be
> done. And I think it'd be a very interesting book, quite different from
> most of what's out there.
>
The most common critique that I receive from my little group of peer
reviewers is that I don't rationalize the 'supernatural' elements. Yet,
this kind of writing is closer to my natural voice. So, I expect that
should the massive fantasy volume that is currently awaiting revision
ever gets done, it might be an example of this.
> But I'm not going to write it.
>
> Ok, well, not *now*, anyway.
>
heh.
--
Brian F.
FSOBN.
Charlie Stross
as <sue...@execpc.com> declared:
>> TIA, googling isn't as useful as it usually is. Some claim magic realism
>> is strictly a Spanish- or Latin-American (white folk need not apply),
>> some say it's inclusive... the definitions go on and on.
>>
> Tho Dan Goodman is right, I tend to think of it as fiction set in the real
> world that assumes the real world is more magical than most people (outside
> the universe of the work in question) believe.
I am inclined to agree.
Examples of books that do this sort of thing but which don't fit the
Spanish/Latin-American category: "Zeitgeist" by Bruce Sterling (looks
mainstream for about the first fifty pages, then we come across a drunken
arms dealer who starts vomiting missiles and grenade launchers ...),
"Neverwhere" by Neil Gaiman (although it's close to being urban fantasy
-- there's a blurred crossover point somewhere), I think some of Angela
Carter's work fits the bill ... what about Christopher Priest?
It's distinct from slipstream, which brings an almost SF-nal sensibility
to mainstream literature. (Examples: "Let's put the future behind us" by
Jack Womack, anything at all by Christopher Brookmyre, "Interface" by
Stephen Bury, "Richard A" by Sol Yurick ...)
-- Charlie
Carol Flynt
>
> Suzanne A Blom wrote:
> > Tho Dan Goodman is right, I tend to think of it as fiction
> > set in the real world that assumes the real world is more
> > magical than most people (outside the universe of the work
> > in question) believe.
> My reading of magical realism is somewhat, limited. The above make
> sense based on that reading but I would add the following corollary,
> 'and there is no attempt to justify or rationalize the magic, or the
> existence of magic'.
I am not an expert on this topic. I just have
opinions:
I think these are both good starting points. And I also
agree with Dan's pragmatic approach.
The other aspect missing from this defintion of
"Magic Realism," at least as it manifests in Latin
American literature (where supposedly it originates)
is the political commentary. The underlying theme
of the magic realists is commentary -- usually,
but not exclusively, negative -- about the existing
political regime.
This, I think, may explain why Magic Realism is
intended for mainstream, not genre, audiences.
That's not to say that it can't cross over to
genre tastes. But it tends to speak to the
mainstream first and foremost.
The "magic" in Magic Realism is real, present, taken
for granted, and usually not recognized as magic
except for the cognescenti, which is usually the
author, the reader and perhaps a view-point
character or two. Hence the lack of explanation
or rationalization of the magic.
Marquez is the quintessential Magic Realist, and his
works are available in decent translations.
I also think of Ray Bradbury as Magic Realism,
although he predates the term.
Carol Flynt, whose opinions are woth their price.