toward a lexicon
Dan Goodman
other characters something they all know. See maid and butler dialog.
category --
eight deadly words "I don't care what happens to these people!" (Dorothy
Heydt)
filing off the serial numbers --
future history A nice, neat chart of the future, used by a writer who
wants to save the work of making up a new background for each story.
garbageman story A social trend is extrapolated to absurdity, in a story
apparently intended seriously. The author notes that garbage handlers are
an increasing percentage of the US population, and writes about a future
in which everyone in the US is a garbage handler. HL Gold used to publish
a lot of these in Galaxy; but he hasn't been buying much lately.
genre --
info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given to
the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
Mary Sue Story I believe this is a term from Trek fandom. I don't know
if it's still current.
Worldbuilder's Disease. The writer gets so involved in background for the
story that the story starts to be forgotten. From Nan Dibble, _Plot_,
Writers Digest Books -- she's written sf as Ansen Dibell.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Brenda
Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>
> maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>
>
I will just gently point out that Christchurch is in New Zealand...
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Alma Hromic
>maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
>butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
NEW ZEALAND, dammit. don't care how long the maid thinks the young
master has been imprisoned, but let her get her basic geography wrong
and *i* will be forced to offer an information dump <g>
A.
***************
"The difference between journalism and literature
is that journalism is unreadable
and literature is unread."
Oscar Wilde
Zeborah
>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given
to
>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
Almost never. I see people citing Heinlein as a good infodump writer.
My personal opinion: infodumps about society are more interesting than
infodumps about technology. Infodumps about a character are more
interesting
than infodumps about society. Story is more interesting than infodumps.
>maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
>butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days,
and
>seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
A couple of people have already commented on this, so I won't leap to
the
defense of my hometown. :-) (I believe there is a Wellington in
Australia,
as well as the one that's NZ's capital city. I got a bit confused once
when
corresponding with someone whose email address ended in .au but who had
"Wellington Public Library" in the sig file.)
>Mary Sue Story I believe this is a term from Trek fandom. I don't
know
>if it's still current.
It's certainly still current in Trek fandom; also in (at least) Due
South
fandom, so I suspect that it's crossed over into most fandoms. It
basically refers to a story where the writer writes (originally) herself
in as the beautiful and talented heroine who rescues the ship and gets
Captain Kirk. Particularly noticeable when the writer makes no attempt
to disguise her name. (This isn't limited to the female of the species;
it's just that most fanfic writers are female.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Zeborah <zeb...@altavista.com> wrote:
>
>>Mary Sue Story ....
>...I suspect that it's crossed over into most fandoms. It
>basically refers to a story where the writer writes (originally) herself
>in as the beautiful and talented heroine who rescues the ship and gets
>Captain Kirk.
Kirk?????
Mary Sue stories have changed since my day, when EVERYone wanted
Spock, except Joyce Muskat, who wanted McCoy.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Julian Flood
> Christchurch, Australia
As did I. There is an original, you know. (Near Old Sarum, which is, in
turn, near a very Sfnal place)
--
Julian Flood
Life, the Universe and Climbing Plants at www.argonet.co.uk/users/julesf.
Mind the diddley skiffle folk.
Alma Hromic
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <2000042323...@p65-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz>,
>Zeborah <zeb...@altavista.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mary Sue Story ....
>>...I suspect that it's crossed over into most fandoms. It
>>basically refers to a story where the writer writes (originally) herself
>>in as the beautiful and talented heroine who rescues the ship and gets
>>Captain Kirk.
>
>Kirk?????
>
>Mary Sue stories have changed since my day, when EVERYone wanted
>Spock, except Joyce Muskat, who wanted McCoy.
>
oh, gimme spock any day. in fact, in the "galaxy quest" trek analogue,
gimme alan rickman, who plays the spock equivalent <G>
Dorothy J Heydt
Alma Hromic <ang...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>oh, gimme spock any day. in fact, in the "galaxy quest" trek analogue,
>gimme alan rickman, who plays the spock equivalent <G>
Um, yeah, I'll go along with that. If only because of his accent
and his MONUMENTAL act of charity toward the dying alien.
I have the advantage of having married someone who, while he
doesn't look like Spock (more like Henry VIII), thinks a lot like
him.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
> (Zeborah) resisted the urge to comment on:
>> Christchurch, Australia
>
>As did I. There is an original, you know. (Near Old Sarum, which is, in
>turn, near a very Sfnal place)
There are much more SFnal places in Britain. There is a book about
"mystic" locations in GB. I think that the title is something like
that, _Magic Places in Britain_. Quite a nice book for inspiration. Of
course, the very SFnal place is also mentioned in there.
vlatko
--
vlatko.ju...@zg.tel.hr
Dan Goodman
>
>
>Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>>
>>
>
The playwright's factchecking is equivalent to Rossini's. Rossini had the
heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
which surrounds New Orleans.
Dan Goodman
Alma Hromic <ang...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:24:16 GMT, dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) wrote:
>
>
>
>>maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
>>butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>>seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>
>master has been imprisoned, but let her get her basic geography wrong
>and *i* will be forced to offer an information dump <g>
The maid's information is only as accurate as the playwright's.
Dan Goodman
Zeborah <zeb...@altavista.com> wrote:
>>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given
>to
>>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
>
>Almost never. I see people citing Heinlein as a good infodump writer.
Intended reference: "Treason doth never prosper....If it prosper, none
dare call it treason."
>My personal opinion: infodumps about society are more interesting than
>infodumps about technology. Infodumps about a character are more
>interesting
>than infodumps about society. Story is more interesting than infodumps.
>
>>maid and butler dialog. At the beginning of a play, the maid tells the
>>butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days,
>and
>>seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>
>A couple of people have already commented on this, so I won't leap to
>the
>defense of my hometown. :-) (I believe there is a Wellington in
>Australia,
>as well as the one that's NZ's capital city. I got a bit confused once
>when
>corresponding with someone whose email address ended in .au but who had
>"Wellington Public Library" in the sig file.)
The playwright's fact-checking was done by the same organization which
later checked non-British accents for "Dr. Who".
In another newsgroup, I mentioned that Boston preachers had blamed the
Lisbon earthquake on the wickedness of the people of Boston. I then had
to explain that this was _not_ a place in New England, but the original
Lisbon.
>>Mary Sue Story I believe this is a term from Trek fandom. I don't
>know
>>if it's still current.
>
>It's certainly still current in Trek fandom; also in (at least) Due
>South
>fandom, so I suspect that it's crossed over into most fandoms. It
>basically refers to a story where the writer writes (originally) herself
>in as the beautiful and talented heroine who rescues the ship and gets
>Captain Kirk. Particularly noticeable when the writer makes no attempt
>to disguise her name. (This isn't limited to the female of the species;
>it's just that most fanfic writers are female.)
>
>Zeborah
>http://users.netaccess.co.nz/fitchett
Dan Goodman
Julian Flood <jul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> (Zeborah) resisted the urge to comment on:
>> Christchurch, Australia
>
>As did I. There is an original, you know. (Near Old Sarum, which is, in
>turn, near a very Sfnal place)
Arkham?
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>
>heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
>which surrounds New Orleans.
I read a Harlequin novel once, written by an Englishwoman, set in
Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
fox-hunting.
Alma Hromic
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <N72N4.1222$wJ1....@ptah.visi.com>,
>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>>>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>>
>>The playwright's factchecking is equivalent to Rossini's. Rossini had the
>>heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
>>which surrounds New Orleans.
>
>I read a Harlequin novel once, written by an Englishwoman, set in
>Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
>fox-hunting.
so create a brand new species called the californian fox. it can mean
anything you like.
there's a science fiction angle in this somewhere...
Brenda
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <N72N4.1222$wJ1....@ptah.visi.com>,
> Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
> >>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
> >>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
> >
> >The playwright's factchecking is equivalent to Rossini's. Rossini had the
> >heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
> >which surrounds New Orleans.
>
> I read a Harlequin novel once, written by an Englishwoman, set in
> Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
> fox-hunting.
I was startled, reading to the end of THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND by Jules Verne, to
discover that after their paradisial island home is destroyed by volcano and
earthquake the heroes decide to recreate their Eden in central Ohio. I can only
conclude that very few Frenchmen of the time had actually visited Ohio. It's
okay, but it's not the Caymans.
Dorothy J Heydt
Alma Hromic <ang...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:29:24 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
>>fox-hunting.
>
>anything you like.
Sure, for sf. Invent a new fox, invent a new California. But
this was a Harlequin, whose (considerable) divergence from
reality is of an entirely different kind.
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>I was startled, reading to the end of THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND by Jules Verne, to
>discover that after their paradisial island home is destroyed by volcano and
>earthquake the heroes decide to recreate their Eden in central Ohio. I can only
>conclude that very few Frenchmen of the time had actually visited Ohio. It's
>okay, but it's not the Caymans.
A translation of _20,000 Leagues_ that was widely used in the US
for decades begins with Prof. Arronax (sp?) explaining how he was
just returning from fieldwork in the "terrible regions" of Idaho.
Try Badlands. Somebody had back-translated "les mauvais terres"
or something without thinking.
Dan Goodman
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <N72N4.1222$wJ1....@ptah.visi.com>,
>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>>>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>>
>>The playwright's factchecking is equivalent to Rossini's. Rossini had the
>>heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
>>which surrounds New Orleans.
>
>Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
>fox-hunting.
Does Pasadena _have_ the kind of upper crust she was describing?
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:29:24 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <N72N4.1222$wJ1....@ptah.visi.com>,
>>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> butler "So the young master is returning after nine years, three days, and
>>>>> seventeen minutes imprisoned in Christchurch, Australia....."
>>>
>>>The playwright's factchecking is equivalent to Rossini's. Rossini had the
>>>heroine of "Manon Lescault" and her lover dying of thirst in the desert
>>>which surrounds New Orleans.
>>
>>I read a Harlequin novel once, written by an Englishwoman, set in
>>Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
>>fox-hunting.
>
>so create a brand new species called the californian fox. it can mean
>anything you like.
We have foxes. We don't have fox hunting to speak of: we
couldn't. (I think they do someplace in the South) The landscape
is all wrong -- you can't chase the fox on horseback in crowds
over the range the fox lives in: there are fences, for one thing,
and for another, you can't hunt on other peoples' land, and for
another, you can't take dogs onto National or State Park land
(with exceptions), and on and on.
Locally, we have foxes downtown (mostly in the wildlife preserve
in the middle of town). A bunch of cirecumstantial evidence
indicated that a particular one, a favorite of the Westside
neighbors of the lagoon, was rabid: you should have seen the
uproar when Parks and Rec went after it.
The fox appears to ahve survived, though wounded, and possibly
less trusting: Parks and Rec appears to have survived the wrath of
the neighbors: but you can bet there will be no fox hunting here.
We do have native foxes, but this one was a red, and not native.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Lucy Kemnitzer
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <3905A4A7...@erols.com>, Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>I was startled, reading to the end of THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND by Jules Verne, to
>>discover that after their paradisial island home is destroyed by volcano and
>>earthquake the heroes decide to recreate their Eden in central Ohio. I can only
>>conclude that very few Frenchmen of the time had actually visited Ohio. It's
>>okay, but it's not the Caymans.
>
>A translation of _20,000 Leagues_ that was widely used in the US
>for decades begins with Prof. Arronax (sp?) explaining how he was
>just returning from fieldwork in the "terrible regions" of Idaho.
>
>Try Badlands. Somebody had back-translated "les mauvais terres"
>or something without thinking.
Is there also a Badlands in Idaho? I don't know the place. The
Badlands I know is in western South Dakota.
I just reread my childhood favorite Verne _The Begum's Fortune_
and I was really amused by the description of Oregon and Northern
California. He had obviously really done his research, maybe even
looked at pictures, but he just as obviously visualized something
just a little bit different from what was really there.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Julian Flood
> I read a Harlequin novel once, written by an Englishwoman, set in
> Pasadena, California. The upper crust their spent their time
> fox-hunting.
Well, I hope that Atitlan still has volcanoes, tamales and human sacrifice.
Stonehenge has no MacDonald's, but the car park and wire netting are just as
bad.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>Does Pasadena _have_ the kind of upper crust she was describing?
I dunno. My mother lived there once but she didn't move in those
kinds of social circles.
Dorothy J Heydt
Julian Flood <jul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Well, I hope that Atitlan still has volcanoes, tamales and human sacrifice.
Volcanoes, yes. Tamales, definitely. Human sacrifice survives
only in the occasional case of impoverished Mexicans doing in
non-Mexican tourists for their fabulous wealth (which it is, from
their point of view). This happens SELDOM. Sorry, Julian.
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>genre --
>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given to
>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
We just had a good panel on this at Minicon. Actually, the
preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that info-dumps prosper
quite a lot. If they don't, it's because they're done wrong, not
because there's anything intrinsically wrong with them.
If the info-dump (we called it the expository lump, actually) is in
the right place, the story, for my values of story anyway, does NOT
stop. It may turn from a waterfall into a marshland, but the water is
moving and comes out the other side.
I prefer wetlands as a rule. Nice biodiversity.
I think this analogy is trying to take over the world.
--
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pd...@demesne.com)
"I will open my heart to a blank page
and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"
Dan Goodman
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet <pd...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote:
>dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) writes:
>
>>genre --
>
>>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given to
>>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
>
>We just had a good panel on this at Minicon. Actually, the
>preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that info-dumps prosper
>quite a lot. If they don't, it's because they're done wrong, not
>because there's anything intrinsically wrong with them.
If it prosper, it's not an infodump...
>If the info-dump (we called it the expository lump, actually) is in
>the right place, the story, for my values of story anyway, does NOT
>stop. It may turn from a waterfall into a marshland, but the water is
>moving and comes out the other side.
Unfortunately, it's so often done wrong. "Done wrong" equals "boring to
anyone who's not intensely interested in such details, and to some of
those who _are_ interested."
Note that what people want to know more about can vary. There's one
edition of Casanova's memoirs which has the boring sex scenes abridged, so
the reader need not slog through them to find the interesting stuff about
politics.
>I prefer wetlands as a rule. Nice biodiversity.
>
>I think this analogy is trying to take over the world.
>
>--
>
>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pd...@demesne.com)
>"I will open my heart to a blank page
> and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"
Heather Anne Nicoll
> We just had a good panel on this at Minicon.
A very good panel on it. After the panel, I pulled out Toy and fixed a
broken infodump, turning it from an expository digestive biscuit into a
nice little knot of currants.
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.dslonramp.net/~darkhawk/
I understand about indecision, I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition; all I want is to have my peace of mind.
- Boston, "Peace of Mind"
Lucy Kemnitzer
Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) writes:
>
>>genre --
>
>>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given to
>>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
>
>We just had a good panel on this at Minicon. Actually, the
>preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that info-dumps prosper
>quite a lot. If they don't, it's because they're done wrong, not
>because there's anything intrinsically wrong with them.
>
>If the info-dump (we called it the expository lump, actually) is in
>the right place, the story, for my values of story anyway, does NOT
>stop. It may turn from a waterfall into a marshland, but the water is
>moving and comes out the other side.
>
>I prefer wetlands as a rule. Nice biodiversity.
>
>I think this analogy is trying to take over the world.
Good thing if it does. Ducks, frogs, fat innkeeper worms, skates,
cattails -- we get to find metaphorical meaning for all of them.
Gosh, and the inland wetlands are different from the coastal ones,
aren't they? And then there's the uplands ones.
And the water moves through all of them, yes, you're on to
something.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>Note that what people want to know more about can vary. There's one
>edition of Casanova's memoirs which has the boring sex scenes abridged, so
>the reader need not slog through them to find the interesting stuff about
>politics.
>
Casanova's sex scenes _are_ boring. Nothing happens except he
notices some woman, talks her into it, does it, and he's on his
way. The "doing it" part is always the same, too.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
Well, there are the freshwater marshes, and here in CA we have the rare and
becoming rarer vernal pools, while back east they have swamps and bogs and fens,
although I have never been 100% clear on fens exactly. Thought crosses my mind -
DO we have any swamps here on the west coast (US)?
--
"George" Cathy Purchis cat...@value.net
Who spends 40 hours/week hanging around in a salt marsh
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<cat...@value.DELETETHIS.net> wrote:
snip
>Well, there are the freshwater marshes, and here in CA we have the rare and
>becoming rarer vernal pools, while back east they have swamps and bogs and fens,
>although I have never been 100% clear on fens exactly. Thought crosses my mind -
>DO we have any swamps here on the west coast (US)?
Come north, dear girl, come north. I'm sure we can find swamps
aplenty within driving range of PDX or Seattle.....
jrw
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet <pd...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote:
>> We just had a good panel on this at Minicon.
>A very good panel on it. After the panel, I pulled out Toy and fixed a
>broken infodump, turning it from an expository digestive biscuit into a
>nice little knot of currants.
I'm so glad it was useful. It was a joy to be on, which one cannot
say of all panels, or even many of them.
It was very nice to meet you, and I'm so sorry I'm just as shy as you
are in approximately the same way.
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>In article <pddb.95...@gw.dd-b.net>,
>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet <pd...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote:
>>dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) writes:
>>
>>>genre --
>>
>>>info dump. The story stops while a large chunk of information is given to
>>>the reader. The problem is that _the story stops_. There are various
>>>devices for doing this: a speech by a longwinded bore, an encyclopedia
>>>article, etc. Info dumps never prosper.
>>
>>We just had a good panel on this at Minicon. Actually, the
>>preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that info-dumps prosper
>>quite a lot. If they don't, it's because they're done wrong, not
>>because there's anything intrinsically wrong with them.
>If it prosper, it's not an infodump...
Well, no, none dare CALL it an infodump. Except we did, or at least,
we called it an expository lump. In fact, I mentioned that my initial
rejection of the stricture against expository lumps, which I took very
seriously when I was beginning to write, came as a result of a
splendid scene in Emma Bull's FALCON where a character does dare call
it an expository lump. "All right," he says, "now for the expository
lump."
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
>On 27 Apr 2000 18:12:42 GMT, pd...@gw.dd-b.net (Pamela Dean
>Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>>If the info-dump (we called it the expository lump, actually) is in
>>the right place, the story, for my values of story anyway, does NOT
>>stop. It may turn from a waterfall into a marshland, but the water is
>>moving and comes out the other side.
>>
>>I prefer wetlands as a rule. Nice biodiversity.
>>
>>I think this analogy is trying to take over the world.
>Good thing if it does. Ducks, frogs, fat innkeeper worms, skates,
>cattails -- we get to find metaphorical meaning for all of them.
Dragonflies! Red-winged blackbirds! And yes, mosquitoes.
>Gosh, and the inland wetlands are different from the coastal ones,
>aren't they? And then there's the uplands ones.
And the desert ones. I recently visited a riparian environment in the
Sonora Desert. It was extremely weird.
>And the water moves through all of them, yes, you're on to
>something.
Huh. Dangerous things, analogies.
Lucy Kemnitzer
<cat...@value.DELETETHIS.net> wrote:
>Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:
>
>> On 27 Apr 2000 18:12:42 GMT, pd...@gw.dd-b.net (Pamela Dean
>> Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>>
>> >If the info-dump (we called it the expository lump, actually) is in
>> >the right place, the story, for my values of story anyway, does NOT
>> >stop. It may turn from a waterfall into a marshland, but the water is
>> >moving and comes out the other side.
>> >
>> >I prefer wetlands as a rule. Nice biodiversity.
>> >
>> >I think this analogy is trying to take over the world.
>>
>> Good thing if it does. Ducks, frogs, fat innkeeper worms, skates,
>> cattails -- we get to find metaphorical meaning for all of them.
>> Gosh, and the inland wetlands are different from the coastal ones,
>> aren't they? And then there's the uplands ones.
>
>Well, there are the freshwater marshes, and here in CA we have the rare and
>becoming rarer vernal pools, while back east they have swamps and bogs and fens,
>although I have never been 100% clear on fens exactly. Thought crosses my mind -
>DO we have any swamps here on the west coast (US)?
You've got a lot to answer for.
I was going to go to bed at a reasonable hour, till I checked in
for one last time and found this question. _You're_ the wetlands
interpreter, you're supposed to know!
So I didn't think so, never having seen one or a picture of one,
but I thought maybe they had them in the Northwest or in some
corner of the Great Valley I had never been in. But I hate saying
"I dunno," so I googled, and I found this, which is more about
classifying wetlands than one human can absorb:
http://lily.mip.berkeley.edu/wetlands/classifi.html
and it lists freshwater swamps, though it doesn't say where. My
suspicion, contrary to my first impulse, is that they are to be
found in places like Kesterton, since my understanding of a swamp
is that what distinguishes it from a marsh is taller vegetation
and maybe less water, moving less abruptly. So at the edge of a
Great Valley marsh, there might be an area with a water table down
in the root zone, more nutrients maybe, and taller vegetation,
scrub and tree? And there you'd have it, a swamp by definition?
Would willows make it a swamp instead of a marsh -- those little
river willows that grow everywhere? In that case, Neary Lagoon,
the wildlife preserve I live next to here in the inner city, is a
swamp for reals and not just as a joke I like to make.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Heather Anne Nicoll
> say of all panels, or even many of them.
Oh, it was very useful. There were structural and plot and assorted
other reasons there had to be an infodump there, but I realized it was
a) slightly the wrong infodump and b) providing information before that
information was interesting and despite the fact that much of it wasn't
really relevant. So I made it the correct infodump, and more
interesting, and more directly relevant.
I copied the old infodump into a file in case I need the information
later, though. Never know when you might need a good infodump, and *I*
still need the information that's filed in there for other stories.
> It was very nice to meet you, and I'm so sorry I'm just as shy as you
> are in approximately the same way.
Yes yes. Very nice to meet you and wave my hands around incoherently.
No need apologizing for being shy; I'm not shy about being shy, after
all.
Pete McCutchen
>I was startled, reading to the end of THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND by Jules Verne, to
>discover that after their paradisial island home is destroyed by volcano and
>earthquake the heroes decide to recreate their Eden in central Ohio. I can only
>conclude that very few Frenchmen of the time had actually visited Ohio. It's
>okay, but it's not the Caymans.
Ohio does, however, have perhaps the finest collection of roller
coasters of any state or province on the face of the Earth (or at
least it will, after Cedar Point, King's Island, and Six Flags Ohio
finish their 2000 builds). Cedar Point might even have been open in
Verne's time, though it didn't yet have any coasters.
--
Pete McCutchen
Geoff Wedig
Yes, but with a baby, we won't be doing any coastering this year. *sigh*
Geoff
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Dyer-Bennet) wrote:
>dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) writes:
>
>>In article <pddb.95...@gw.dd-b.net>,
>>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet <pd...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>We just had a good panel on this at Minicon. Actually, the
>>>preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that info-dumps prosper
>>>quite a lot. If they don't, it's because they're done wrong, not
>>>because there's anything intrinsically wrong with them.
>
>>If it prosper, it's not an infodump...
>
>Well, no, none dare CALL it an infodump. Except we did, or at least,
>we called it an expository lump. In fact, I mentioned that my initial
>rejection of the stricture against expository lumps, which I took very
>seriously when I was beginning to write, came as a result of a
>splendid scene in Emma Bull's FALCON where a character does dare call
>it an expository lump. "All right," he says, "now for the expository
>lump."
Looks like an info-dump that prospered to me. :-)
But I think it's a nice trick to divert the attention of the reader
from the fact that it's the *writer* doing the ... expository lump.
Smokes and mirrors, just like all the good writing. :-)
vlatko
--
vlatko.ju...@zg.tel.hr
Dan Goodman
Sometimes it's two women at once -- which he claimed was actually easier.
But in any case, the sex scenes are what people usually read Casanova for.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>> Ohio does, however, have perhaps the finest collection of roller
>> coasters of any state or province on the face of the Earth (or at
>> least it will, after Cedar Point, King's Island, and Six Flags Ohio
>> finish their 2000 builds). Cedar Point might even have been open in
>> Verne's time, though it didn't yet have any coasters.
>
>Yes, but with a baby, we won't be doing any coastering this year. *sigh*
We will -- Five parks is eight days, including King's Island, Six
Flags Ohio, and Cedar Point. Reservations already made.
--
Pete McCutchen
Geoff Wedig
Whew. What are the other two parks?
Oh, and if you want to stop by, we're near SFO. ;)
Geoff
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>> We will -- Five parks is eight days, including King's Island, Six
>> Flags Ohio, and Cedar Point. Reservations already made.
>
>Whew. What are the other two parks?
Kennywood Park, Pittsburgh, Pa, and Six Flags Kentucky Kingdom,
Louisville, Kentucky. (Moving east has _some_ advantages -- we're now
within driving distance of Dorney Park, Six Flags America, and Six
Flags Great Adventure. Not to mention Hershey Park, which my wife
drives by every morning, on her way to work, and to which we have
season passes.)
>
>Oh, and if you want to stop by, we're near SFO. ;)
Let me get back to you on that. Our schedule is going to be quite
tight, so don't be offended if we take a pass.
If you like coasters, you should be happy about what Premier is doing
with SFO -- _three_ new big rides in a single year.
--
Pete McCutchen
Geoff Wedig
> Kennywood Park, Pittsburgh, Pa, and Six Flags Kentucky Kingdom,
> Louisville, Kentucky. (Moving east has _some_ advantages -- we're now
> within driving distance of Dorney Park, Six Flags America, and Six
> Flags Great Adventure. Not to mention Hershey Park, which my wife
> drives by every morning, on her way to work, and to which we have
> season passes.)
Ah, not in Ohio, then. I was trying to think of other Ohio parks worth
much.
>>
>>Oh, and if you want to stop by, we're near SFO. ;)
> Let me get back to you on that. Our schedule is going to be quite
> tight, so don't be offended if we take a pass.
Understandable.
> If you like coasters, you should be happy about what Premier is doing
> with SFO -- _three_ new big rides in a single year.
Yes and no. Geauga Lake has a lot of history behind it, and they're
changing a lot really quickly. Maybe it's a good thing for the park, but
many locals aren't sure. And anyway, we're not going to get to *go*. :(
Geoff
NPGreeley
In LA they're called starlets.
Bill Greeley
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>We have foxes. We don't have fox hunting to speak of: we
>couldn't. (I think they do someplace in the South) The landscape
>is all wrong -- you can't chase the fox on horseback in crowds
>over the range the fox lives in: there are fences, for one thing,
Fences, hedges, banks, and other obstacles are regarded as being highlights of
a hunt by those who do hunt. Or at least some of them.
>and for another, you can't hunt on other peoples' land,
You get permission, and if the fox goes to ground on land that you're not
allowed on, then you sit around on the outside and curse.
>and for
>another, you can't take dogs onto National or State Park land
>(with exceptions), and on and on.
I'll buy the National Park argument. The rest just needs a *slight* amendment
to popular culture and you're home and dry. There are avid hunting scenes in
many parts of the United States, or so I'm told, it's not completely
unbelieveable to think that it could have spread to California. And don't
forget, you could, too, hunt Coyotes.
Catja (staying clear of the political discussion)
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>> If you like coasters, you should be happy about what Premier is doing
>> with SFO -- _three_ new big rides in a single year.
>
>Yes and no. Geauga Lake has a lot of history behind it, and they're
>changing a lot really quickly. Maybe it's a good thing for the park, but
>many locals aren't sure.
Point taken. Obviously they weren't going to do it because of the
proximity to Cedar Point, but you'd probably have been better off if
Cedar Fair had taken over the park, rather than Premier. Premier
turns everything into a Six Flags X, each with a DC Comics-themed ride
or four. Cedar Fair tends to retain the old-fashioned feel of the
park, while adding big new rides.
I'm not a huge fan of the "feel" of Premier Parks, particularly all
the comic-book theming (it doesn't even fit with the old "Six Flags
over ___" theme), but I do like big rides.
--
Pete McCutchen
Lucy Kemnitzer
PAFORT) wrote:
>Lucy wrote:
>
>>We have foxes. We don't have fox hunting to speak of: we
>>couldn't. (I think they do someplace in the South) The landscape
>>is all wrong -- you can't chase the fox on horseback in crowds
>>over the range the fox lives in: there are fences, for one thing,
>
>Fences, hedges, banks, and other obstacles are regarded as being highlights of
>a hunt by those who do hunt. Or at least some of them.
I've seen pictures of the English landscape, and it's different.
They seem to have a kind of land we simply don't have much of --
the countryside, I'll call it, to distinguish it from what we have
in California. We have suburbs, which do shade out into more open
(less built) land -- but those are truly crisscrossed with large
freeways. Then we have rural areas but they're more likely to be
fenced in by eight foot cyclone fencing topped with slanting
barbed wire or even razor wire or electric wire, partly from an
exaggerated sense of ownership and partly to keep deer out -- and
agricultural land is more likely to be miles and miles of plowed
and irrigated land than cute little farmsteads. If the land is
anything like wild, it's most likely because it's protected. As
is, by the way, the native fox, which is probably the most
important thing to remember.
.
>
>>and for another, you can't hunt on other peoples' land,
>
>You get permission, and if the fox goes to ground on land that you're not
>allowed on, then you sit around on the outside and curse.
You don't get permission in California. This is the land of the
No Trespassing sign. You know that song "This Land is Your Land"
-- the one little kids sing about how the land was made for you
and me? -- Woody Guthrie originally wrote it as a protest song
against No Trespassing signs, but there's been a verse or two
dropped . . .
>
>>and for
>>another, you can't take dogs onto National or State Park land
>>(with exceptions), and on and on.
>
>I'll buy the National Park argument. The rest just needs a *slight* amendment
>to popular culture and you're home and dry. There are avid hunting scenes in
>many parts of the United States, or so I'm told, it's not completely
>unbelieveable to think that it could have spread to California. And don't
>forget, you could, too, hunt Coyotes.
We have hunting. Lots of hunting. But it's of an entirely
different nature -- no red-coated ally-hoing mobs on horseback
trailing large packs of baying dogs and roaming all over the
countryside after one fox. I gather there's something vaguely
like this in the Southeast, but I'll let somebody who knows
something about it explain how it's like and unlike the English
fox hunt.
Hunting is small groups of guys in a blind or being canny in the
woods, hopefully each with a license and a thorough prepping as to
limits and seasons and which species are off-limits, with or
without a couple of dogs (without, many places, because you can't
take dogs there) going after edible animals which they stick in
the freezer. I never heard of anything like the strange practice
of dipping an animal's tail in its own blood and smearing it
across the face of a person who's attending their first hunt.
Maybe it happens here, but while I'm not a hunter, I've known
several, and none of them mentioned any such thing.
Hunters in California are likely to be either pragmatists who are
emphatic about the role game plays in their diet, or wildlife
enthusiasts who are adamant about the role they play in
conservation, or, once in a while, pest control (such as
controlling exotic species like the red fox or the wild boar).
I can't think of any of the egregious hunting like those horrible
people who kill thousands of prairie dogs or rattlesnakes in one
go in some other parts of the country -- I don't swear we don't
have any of it any more, just that I haven't heard of it.
>
>Catja (staying clear of the political discussion)
It's only vaguely in the least bit political. It's to do with
land use, culture, and so forth. Especially land use. I hope I
don't sound like I think all that No Trespassing and cyclone
fencing is a good idea, by the way. I'm just trying to describe
how it is, and how many many things there are in California that
make foxhunting terribly unlikely.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Jonathan Hendry
>It's only vaguely in the least bit political. It's to do with
>land use, culture, and so forth. Especially land use. I hope I
>don't sound like I think all that No Trespassing and cyclone
>fencing is a good idea, by the way. I'm just trying to describe
>how it is, and how many many things there are in California that
>make foxhunting terribly unlikely.
Do you think there are any ranches or estates large enough to support
a fox hunt? How big are Ronald Reagan's or George Lucas' spreads?
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>I've seen pictures of the English landscape, and it's different.
>They seem to have a kind of land we simply don't have much of --
>the countryside, I'll call it, to distinguish it from what we have
>in California.
Erm, I do think there may be a couple of organized hunts in
California. As in horses, hounds and all that.
For foxhunting, you don't necessarily need a fox. Coyote or even a
"drag" or paper chase will do--drag hunts are used with a scented
lure.
There are hunts in Texas as well as the East Coast, and it really does
seem to me that I've read of one or two in Colorado or Arizona that
use coyotes or drag hunts. All it takes is property with sufficient
jumpable items on it for a good drag hunt.
But this is a question best asked on rec.equestrian, where several
active USA foxhunters hang out.
jrw
Geoff Wedig
> On 4 May 2000 16:26:15 GMT, Geoff Wedig <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu>
> wrote:
>>> If you like coasters, you should be happy about what Premier is doing
>>> with SFO -- _three_ new big rides in a single year.
>>
>>Yes and no. Geauga Lake has a lot of history behind it, and they're
>>changing a lot really quickly. Maybe it's a good thing for the park, but
>>many locals aren't sure.
> Point taken. Obviously they weren't going to do it because of the
> proximity to Cedar Point, but you'd probably have been better off if
> Cedar Fair had taken over the park, rather than Premier. Premier
> turns everything into a Six Flags X, each with a DC Comics-themed ride
> or four. Cedar Fair tends to retain the old-fashioned feel of the
> park, while adding big new rides.
There was actually talks and meetings and such to leave it "Geauga Lake", no
change to name, and, one supposes, it wouldn't then be a Six Flags (TM) park
and so they could be a bit different. But all that came to naught.
> I'm not a huge fan of the "feel" of Premier Parks, particularly all
> the comic-book theming (it doesn't even fit with the old "Six Flags
> over ___" theme), but I do like big rides.
I don't actually think I've ever *been* to a Premier park, but all the parks
are going to more themed rides and attractions, trying to draw in the
increasingly overstimulated with Wholly-Odd style attractions, but I'm not
*too* upset by that. I like big rides too.
And besides, it's good for the economics for the area. GL had been going
down hill, for awhile, so bringing more money and more vacationers to it is
a good thing, overall.
Geoff
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>> I'm not a huge fan of the "feel" of Premier Parks, particularly all
>> the comic-book theming (it doesn't even fit with the old "Six Flags
>> over ___" theme), but I do like big rides.
>
>I don't actually think I've ever *been* to a Premier park, but all the parks
Premier owns Six Flags, so if you've been to a Six Flags, you've been
to what is now a Premier Park. Besides, Premier bought GL, oh, five
or six years ago.
>are going to more themed rides and attractions, trying to draw in the
>increasingly overstimulated with Wholly-Odd style attractions, but I'm not
>*too* upset by that. I like big rides too.
Not all -- Although Cedar Fair is adding a "Camp Snoopy" to Knott's
Berry Farm, they are, for the most part, trying to retain the feel of
the old park. They did the same with Dorney. And Cedar Fair, unlike
Premier, is actually making money right now.
--
Pete McCutchen
Geoff Wedig
> On 5 May 2000 18:29:09 GMT, Geoff Wedig <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu>
> wrote:
>>> I'm not a huge fan of the "feel" of Premier Parks, particularly all
>>> the comic-book theming (it doesn't even fit with the old "Six Flags
>>> over ___" theme), but I do like big rides.
>>
>>I don't actually think I've ever *been* to a Premier park, but all the parks
> Premier owns Six Flags, so if you've been to a Six Flags, you've been
> to what is now a Premier Park. Besides, Premier bought GL, oh, five
> or six years ago.
I know. I've never been to a 6Fl. I have been to GL since the buyout, I
guess, though I thought the BO was more recent, within the last 2 years,
which would have made it after my last visit.
>>are going to more themed rides and attractions, trying to draw in the
>>increasingly overstimulated with Wholly-Odd style attractions, but I'm not
>>*too* upset by that. I like big rides too.
> Not all -- Although Cedar Fair is adding a "Camp Snoopy" to Knott's
> Berry Farm, they are, for the most part, trying to retain the feel of
> the old park. They did the same with Dorney. And Cedar Fair, unlike
> Premier, is actually making money right now.
Cedar Point has very few licenses. There's Berenstein Bear Country and Camp
Snoopy, and they've tried to capiltalize on HW without licenses (witness the
Raptor which was built within close proximity to Jurassic Park), but for the
most part, they've gone with traditional amusements. Their Wild West
section is Top Notch, having been there since there *was*( a real wild west,
and being built on a site where there had been a fort when there was a Wild
(Mid)West.
Geoff
Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
> I've seen pictures of the English landscape, and it's different.
> They seem to have a kind of land we simply don't have much of --
> the countryside, I'll call it, to distinguish it from what we have
> in California.
As Jonathan mentions down-thread, large ranches could work out fine. I can think of
landscape in, for example the areas south of Hollister that haven't been turned
into subdivisions yet, and parts of the Sierra foothills that seem like terrain you
could run a fox hunt through. Think oak grasslands. Chaparral, I agree, is NOT
suited for this activity.
(When I was a forestry major, we used to sing this song about cruising timber -
counting trees - whose chorus was something along the lines of
Oh my, it's certainly fine
To cruise all day long in the tall yellow pine
Oh my, it's certainly hell
To cruise all day long in the damn chaparral
I didn't truly appreciate that song when I was living - and cruising timber - in
the Midwest, but I do think of it frequently now that I'm living with chaparral
again.)
If you have somebody with a large enough ranching-type spread, that takes care of
the permission problem too, because you just get the okay from one landowner and
you're set.
> We have hunting. Lots of hunting. But it's of an entirely
> different nature -- no red-coated ally-hoing mobs on horseback
> trailing large packs of baying dogs and roaming all over the
> countryside after one fox. I gather there's something vaguely
> like this in the Southeast, but I'll let somebody who knows
> something about it explain how it's like and unlike the English
> fox hunt.
I haven't actually seen one of these in progress so I can't comment on the noise
level, but I know that people DO use dogs to chase bears up trees so that they can
be shot at, and mountain lion back when there was a lion season.
Can someone remind me what this has to do with writing SF so I can pretend to make
this post on-topic.
--
"George" Cathy Purchis cat...@value.net
The Peregrine Hacker Interpretive Web sites
http://pwp.value.net/catpur/hacker.htm
Lucy Kemnitzer
It started with somebody mentioning a novel which used an
English-style foxhunting scene set in Pasadena as a background of
routine suburban life, and then the thread mutated to, for some
reason, all these people trying to explain that such a scene
really could happen in Pasadena, and me trying to explain that it
doesn't.
Joyce has heard tell of a hunt or two on somebody's private ranch,
but it doesn't remove the fact that a normal foxhunting culture
simply doesn't exist in Southern California.
Of course you can find one or two instances of any activity
someplace in California, but some are integral parts of the scene,
and some are not, and let me tell you, gamelan and sufi dancing
are a damn sight more integral to the scene in suburban California
than English-style foxhunting.
Why do I care? Because it's weirdly annoying to have people tell
you that you mustn't be correct in your assessment of your own
backyard.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
> On Sat, 06 May 2000 22:28:29 -0700, Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
> <cat...@value.DELETETHIS.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Can someone remind me what this has to do with writing SF so I can pretend to make
> >this post on-topic.
>
> It started with somebody mentioning a novel which used an
> English-style foxhunting scene set in Pasadena as a background of
> routine suburban life, and then the thread mutated to, for some
> reason, all these people trying to explain that such a scene
> really could happen in Pasadena, and me trying to explain that it
> doesn't.
> <SNIP>
> Why do I care? Because it's weirdly annoying to have people tell
> you that you mustn't be correct in your assessment of your own
> backyard.
That's right, it was a debate about whether it's common, rather than whether it's
possible. In which case I agree with you; I don't personally know anybody here in
California (which includes several groups of "horsey" people) who fox hunts, and as a
kid growing up in southern California not terribly far from Pasadena and taking
horseback riding lessons, fox hunting was not ever anything that I remember being
discussed as a possibility.
However, when we moved to northern Virginia when I was 13 and I began taking horseback
riding lessons there, I DID know people who fox hunted.
A problem with fox hunting here in CA, which I meant to include in the previous post, is
that the native gray fox is not considered "suitable" for fox hunting as it has a
tendancy to climb trees (a tree-climbing canine, I am NOT making this up) when chased.
If you're out for a whole day of chasing across the countryside, this kind of ruins the
"game". So, to make this post vaguely writing-related, if anyone IS writing SF which
requires English-style fox hunting (in Pasadena or elsewhere), make sure they have red
foxes and not gray.
David M. Palmer
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3914FEFC...@value.DELETETHIS.net>, Cathy
Purchis-Jefferies <cat...@value.DELETETHIS.net> wrote:
> Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:
>
> > I've seen pictures of the English landscape, and it's different.
> > They seem to have a kind of land we simply don't have much of --
> > the countryside, I'll call it, to distinguish it from what we have
> > in California.
> Can someone remind me what this has to do with writing SF so I can pretend to
> make
> this post on-topic.
The time travel movie of Austen Powers; where he was driving around the
English countryside and said something like
'Isn't it strange that the English countryside looks
nothing at all like Southern California.'
--
David Palmer
formerly and temporarily dmpa...@clark.net
until VERIO/Clarknet screwed up one last time
now and in the future dmpalmer#ematic.com fix the obvious spamblock
Dorothy J Heydt
Lucy Kemnitzer <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 06 May 2000 22:28:29 -0700, Cathy Purchis-Jefferies
><cat...@value.DELETETHIS.net> wrote:
>>Can someone remind me what this has to do with writing SF so I can pretend to make
>>this post on-topic.
>
>It started with somebody mentioning a novel which used an
>English-style foxhunting scene set in Pasadena as a background of
>routine suburban life,....
That was me, describing a Harlequin novel of the 1960s penned by
an Englishwoman who (a) assumed that the upper-crust would do the
same sort of things whether in Rutlandshire or in Pasadena, and
(b) um, ah, no, I can't figure out WHY she picked Pasadena, which
probably does have some upper-crust somewhere but I never heard
of them.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
thomas...@bluetail.com
Julian Flood <jul...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> As did I. There is an original, you know. (Near Old Sarum, which is, in
> turn, near a very Sfnal place)
The Doom That Came To Sarum? Oh, never mind.
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren thomas...@bluetail.com
Bluetail AB http://www.bluetail.com
"One ought to be good, or pretend to be"