[Question]Things to avoid in Urban/Contemporary Fantasy?
the DragonBard
things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
help will be appreciated.
Charlie Stross
as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> help will be appreciated.
Fair Folk living around the margins -- elves with day jobs as motor
mechanics, trolls as night club bouncers, that sort of thing. In fact,
the faerie court, and internal wars therein, is about as much of a cliche
in this branch of fantasy as the Dark Lord's tower in a certain other
branch of fantasy.
Standard plot #1 is that your protagonist is a human being with a talent
attractive to the fair folk who therefore gets sucked into a struggle/love
affair/misunderstanding with them and gets to see all sorts of wild and
wooly things living in the margins of society.
Standard plot #2 is that your protagonist slowly discovers that they're
actually a changeling and a member of the fair folk as they get sucked
into a struggle/love affair/misunderstanding with them and get to see
all sorts of (etc).
The fair folk in either version tend to be portrayed as (a) a tattered
remnant of their original power (because us Moorlocks have filled the
world with cold iron and/or machinery and/or people), or (b) withdrawn
from their old interaction with humanity (because us Moorlocks have etc).
The commonest McGuffin consists of access to a spirit/ghost/sidhe world
that comes with all sorts of FDA-mandated warnings ('CAUTION: Human beings
may not experience a prolonged life in this environment') but into which
it is necessary for our protagonist to bravely go in order to rescue
the love interest/find the villain/retrieve the missing plot coupon.
Another McGuffin is: mysterious power dumped on human who doesn't know
how to use it (for equally mysterious reasons except that, being the
protagonist -- usually -- they're an exceptional human).
For dark variations, replace 'sidhe' or 'fair folk' with 'vampires' and
'undead' -- see, for example, Nany Collins.
I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot skeletons
or mcguffins as being unavoidable. They are basically escapist structures
targeting a reader with a sense of alienation who wants to tap into a
sense of belonging, or of justifiable exceptionalism. You may not want to
write an escapist yarn. Or you may have something deeper in mind -- an
exploration of the aliens living among us, for example. Or you might
want to do escapism, but be creative enough to come up with a wholly new
plot format. Or you could dress one of the standard plots up in fancy new
clothes so that it's almost unrecognizable. Or any combination of the
above.
Does this help?
-- Charlie
Sherwood Smith
wrote:
>I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
>things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
>help will be appreciated.
Avoid a battle of the bands, humans against Sidhe (that of course the
humans win because their music is so cool, so passionate, that it
turns into magic and blows the Bad Sidhe away.) This was a lot of fun
in Emma Bull's story, and successively less entertaining in each of
the many xeroxes.
Zeborah
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > help will be appreciated.
<huge snip>
> I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot skeletons
> or mcguffins as being unavoidable.
I'd like to stress, too, that I don't see them as being a must-avoid.
In fact, as I was reading through this, laughing at how much it
resembled a fairly cliched urban fantasy that I read not long ago, I
though, "Well, what does good UF do?" And I thought of Jim Hetley's
"The Summer Country" (erm... not in bookstores yet) and was quite
surprised that it too fit a certain number (though not all) of the
tendencies Charlie mentioned. *Very* surprised, because I was in the
middle of thinking of them as terrible cliches, which "Summer Country"
is really not.
However, Charlie is definitely right: you can avoid them if you want.
There are plenty of other things to do out there. For one thing, you
could fiddle with other legends than those involving fair folk and
vampires. It's just that you don't have to.
Zeborah
--
Semper ad eventum festinet. -- Horace
"Always party hard at social events." <eg>
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
Stuart Houghton
news:3c46d9c0....@netnews.worldnet.att.net:
> Avoid a battle of the bands, humans against Sidhe (that of course the
> humans win because their music is so cool, so passionate, that it
> turns into magic and blows the Bad Sidhe away.) This was a lot of fun
> in Emma Bull's story, and successively less entertaining in each of
> the many xeroxes.
Really? That seems so specific that I can't imagine anyone having the front
to copy it. Sheesh.
--
Stuart Houghton
Sherwood Smith
<stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I counted six back in the mid 90s, when I did a severe weeding of the
bookshelves. (Though I did enjoy the Gael Baudino rendition of this
plot, with its all-female band.) Apparently there were more, from a
subsequent discussion back when Genie was in biz.
jhetley
news:1f66fqh.1savszrfwr4haN%zeb...@altavista.com...
> Charlie Stross <cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>
> > Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> > as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
> >
> > > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > > help will be appreciated.
>
> <huge snip>
>
> > I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot
skeletons
> > or mcguffins as being unavoidable.
>
> I'd like to stress, too, that I don't see them as being a must-avoid.
> In fact, as I was reading through this, laughing at how much it
> resembled a fairly cliched urban fantasy that I read not long ago, I
> though, "Well, what does good UF do?" And I thought of Jim Hetley's
> "The Summer Country" (erm... not in bookstores yet) and was quite
> surprised that it too fit a certain number (though not all) of the
> tendencies Charlie mentioned. *Very* surprised, because I was in the
> middle of thinking of them as terrible cliches, which "Summer Country"
> is really not.
Thanks for the plug, Zeborah.<G>
And thanks also for the vote of confidence. I read through Charlie's list
and my palms started sweating. Then I reminded myself that I _did_ manage
to sell the damned thing....
(As a "first novel" and out of the slush pile. And they put up an advance
for a sequel, which I really should be writing rather than wasting time on
RASFC.)
So YMMV. As always, in this game.
--
Jim
THE SUMMER COUNTRY, a novel of dark contemporary fantasy
Coming in October 2002 from Ace Science Fiction & Fantasy
Charlie Stross
> And thanks also for the vote of confidence. I read through Charlie's list
> and my palms started sweating.
You think _my_ list is bad? It's about five paragraphs. Not much, compared
to Dianne Wynn-Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
Mind you, I re-read my own post and began sweating a bit, too. I think what
did it was sticking my finger on the escapist pulse.
Consider: why do you read fantasy? (I'm not going to say "why do readers ..."
because that's a distancing move. In my experience, writers usually write
stuff that they'd like to read. So you're writing for an audience of, well,
yourself. So what do you like to read?)
There are different buttons to push in different sub-genres of fantasy.
Sure, the big plot-coupon quest series has eaten 80% of the shelf space,
but that's not the beginning and end of the genre. The assumption that
the values implicit in the descendants of LoTR are universals in fantasy
bears about as much merit as the assumption that all SF is a re-write
of Star Wars.
Now, urban fantasy seems to me to push a couple of buttons very hard. One
of them is the intersection of reality with a hidden world. Another is
escape into, or from, that hidden world. If you can point me at an urban
fantasy that _doesn't_ contain either of those elements I'd be a wee bit
surprised.
And then there's the hook that keeps people reading: identification with
a protagonist. With the exception of a few weird experiments (Aldiss'
"Report on Probability A" springs to mind) most novels have protagonists
the reader is expected to relate to. A protagonist who discovers a hidden
world is a classic escapist vehicle, a tool to allow the reader to get the
hell away from the boring humdrum normality of everyday life.
So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
from the, well, escape.
> Then I reminded myself that I _did_ manage
> to sell the damned thing....
Congratulations! So: which of the rules do you break successfully? And
more importantly, do you know _why_?
-- Charlie
Dan Krashin
> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> help will be appreciated.
[with more passion than wisdom, I delurk again]
Cliches to approach with extreme caution:
Elfbabes who like human guys. (Arwen with sunglasses)
Noble, stoic male elves who fight on the narrator's side, especially
if they
die heroically fighting the bad guys. (Legolas with a tommygun).
Elves with electric guitars.
Other pitfalls:
Only using Sidhe-type elves. Bull used the whole range of celtic
faerie creatures, with redcaps, brownies, pookas, and whatever the
bass player was. The whole Celtic mythology has been pretty
thoroughly strip-mined, actually.
Making the antagonist an Eeevil Elf wizard who plans to destroy the
world with
his unholy magic.
Making the elf/human subculture too much of a wish-fulfillment
fantasy. There really isn't much in the orginal legends to make me
think that living in the same neighborhood as a bunch of Fair Folk
would be a good thing.
I think a lot of readers like it that way, but to me it seems
self-indulgent.
Don't let me stop you, though, urban fantasy is a guilty pleasure for
me.
It's just so hard to find it done right.
Danny
Geoff Wedig
> though, "Well, what does good UF do?" And I thought of Jim Hetley's
> "The Summer Country" (erm... not in bookstores yet) and was quite
Yeah, do we have an ETA yet, on that, Jim? I want my wife to read it when
it comes out. She's much into good urban fantasy.
Geoff
Helen Kenyon
Charlie Stross <cha...@nospam.antipope.org> writes
>
>So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
>where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
>That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
>from the, well, escape.
>
and a short story idea popped out. I do not *need* more ideas.
Helen
(Who ought to be writing, not hanging out here, but my brain's too tired
to write decent fiction.)
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
For photos of North Wales, follow the link to the photo of the week.
**Please delete the extra bit from e-mail address if replying by mail**
AlbertPeasemarch
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > help will be appreciated.
> I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot skeletons
> or mcguffins as being unavoidable. They are basically escapist structures
> targeting a reader with a sense of alienation who wants to tap into a
> sense of belonging, or of justifiable exceptionalism. You may not want to
> write an escapist yarn. Or you may have something deeper in mind -- an
> exploration of the aliens living among us, for example. Or you might
> want to do escapism, but be creative enough to come up with a wholly new
> plot format. Or you could dress one of the standard plots up in fancy new
> clothes so that it's almost unrecognizable. Or any combination of the
> above.
>
> Does this help?
"Tell me where is fancy bred
Or in the heart or in the head?"
I don't think anyone should worry that they may be writing plot
structures that appear similar to those that have been traced over
before. If this is genre fiction, then variations on a theme are par
for the course. Everything in the world is superimposition anyway. You
have to back yourself to write well enough to stand out from the rest.
If you are going to write about Faeries, then I suggest you must know
them. The faery stories that seem archaic now were once contemporary.
They are renewable, and so there are many versions. Folklore doesn't
shy from weaving webs on other webs to make new tapestries.
If you know the faeries then you will know how to write about them. (I
can only refer to faeries here, because vampires and the like are not
part of my own tradition and experience - but the same spirits take
many forms, according to our imaginations and cultures.)
Now when you set out to write a contemporary faery tale, I'd say that
you shouldn't write to invent but to reveal and discover. That means
that you have to look into yourself for your subject matter, and into
the people you live amongst, and your environment, and your roots. The
struggles you have, the emotions, the challenges, the relationships,
have all been foreshadowed in history - so if you delve through the
layers of things you will find resonance. The spirits of the land are
alive because all time, from a certain point of view, is now. I think
you have to be sensitive to that if you want to evoke the way the
spirits live amongst us and inside us.
I would say that you have to start out not by saying, "I want to write
an urban or contemporary fantasy", but by saying what do I, as a
person, really want to write about? I think you can see this approach
in the work of Charles De Lint, and in the more contemporary work of
Brian Froude. I would also suggest you write about the place you live
in, or a place you have lived in, rather than invent a new world. You
will never be short of fantastic material if you do it this way. Your
world will become new anyway.
I believe that if you are aware of the spirits of the past, and of the
land you live on, then other dimensions will impinge naturally on your
work. You won't need to force that or worry about consistency, because
you will be writing by instinct. No one will accuse your work of
cliche because it will be alive with the emotional power and honesty
of your own life, thoughts, feelings etc, even if a similar story has
been told a thousand times before.
If that all sounds wishy washy, the result need not be so. On the
contrary, if you write about the real world of families and cars and
jobs and society, and about concrete things that evreryone can relate
to - school, computers, money, sickness. You may be writing something
more accessibly real than most fantasy writers, oddly enough.
My advice, if you want to write urban or contemporary fantasy, would
be to keep the fantasy to a minimum, the magic to a minimum, so that
when it does touch your characters it will have the most effect.
Faeries are rarely seen. I think it would be too fantastic to pretend
otherwise.
Albert Peasemarch.
Randy Money
>
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > help will be appreciated.
>
> Fair Folk living around the margins -- elves with day jobs as motor
> mechanics, trolls as night club bouncers, that sort of thing. In fact,
> the faerie court, and internal wars therein, is about as much of a cliche
> in this branch of fantasy as the Dark Lord's tower in a certain other
> branch of fantasy.
>
> Standard plot #1 is that your protagonist is a human being with a talent
> attractive to the fair folk who therefore gets sucked into a struggle/love
> affair/misunderstanding with them and gets to see all sorts of wild and
> wooly things living in the margins of society.
>
> Standard plot #2 is that your protagonist slowly discovers that they're
> actually a changeling and a member of the fair folk as they get sucked
> into a struggle/love affair/misunderstanding with them and get to see
> all sorts of (etc).
>
[...]
My only objection is that the earliest 20th century writer of urban
fantasy I can think of, Fritz Leiber, didn't use Faerie in his urban
fantasies. (At least, not that I'm aware of.)
Also, I think you could easily call what Jonathan Carroll writes, "urban
fantasy," and I haven't seen Faerie in what I've read by him, either.
So, yes, in certain forms of urban fantasy, I think you've mentioned
things that could easily devolve into cliche. But I wonder if what's
been discussed here so far only maps a portion of the urban fantasy
landscape. If I'm right, then maybe there are other plot lines that
would more likely appear in those areas.
Randy M.
Geoff Wedig
> So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
> where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
> That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
> from the, well, escape.
Actually the "Elfland is awful. Get me out of this!" could be considered a
staple of the horror genre. Normal people come up against the weird and run
from it.
It's also a staple of gentler fantasies. How many "Get out of the deal with
teh devil" stories are there? Not to mention stories where one character
rescues another from the fantasy beasties (consider the movie Labyrinth, as
one example of this trope) Both directions seem plausible.
Now what I haven't seen much of is the "Not better or worse, just different"
Perhaps the Borderlands shared world stories are the closest that I can
think of.
Better, *or* worse are both pretty common though.
Geoff
Constance Anderson
wrote:
>drago...@my-deja.com (the DragonBard) wrote in message news:<bc061810.02011...@posting.google.com>...
>> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
>> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
>> help will be appreciated.
>
>[with more passion than wisdom, I delurk again]
>Cliches to approach with extreme caution:
>
>Elfbabes who like human guys. (Arwen with sunglasses)
>
>Noble, stoic male elves who fight on the narrator's side, especially
>if they
>die heroically fighting the bad guys. (Legolas with a tommygun).
>
>Elves with electric guitars.
I agree. They can be done well -- War for the Oaks particularly did a
lot of good things with the electric guitars motif, and some of the
Borderlands books and shorts with the other things, but there have
been a lot that IMHO were just bad xerox copies of the good stuff.
It's not necessarily something to avoid, but, like a lot of the
trappings of Fantasy Quest Fiction, it needs to be done deliberately,
and carefully, so that you aren't just lifting the tropes.
>Making the elf/human subculture too much of a wish-fulfillment
>fantasy. There really isn't much in the orginal legends to make me
>think that living in the same neighborhood as a bunch of Fair Folk
>would be a good thing.
>I think a lot of readers like it that way, but to me it seems
>self-indulgent.
I think my biggest peeve is elves who are just Super Cool Humans.
They aren't different in any substantial way, they're just skiffier,
and better looking, and have magic. (And they tend to have cool jobs
-- they're all buskers, or rock musicians, and they ride motorcycles
and dress really spiffily, et cetera, et cetera. I think that elves,
having a certain glamour, would probably be very beautiful and
skilled, and so forth, but they'd also be more /different/ than humans
-- mileage here varies, of course.) That was a lot of what I liked
about War for the Oaks: the phooka was very much not-human in his
outlook, from what we could see.
Connie
jhetley
> > to sell the damned thing....
>
> Congratulations! So: which of the rules do you break successfully? And
> more importantly, do you know _why_?
>
Well, I started out with a psychotic heroine in a sleetstorm and things went
downhill from there.
Jim Hetley
They've muttered about October. Haven't seen the cover art with the
flying, flaming dragon and the naked broad on its back waving a naked
broadsword yet, though. (NB: neither appear in the text....)
Jim
Boudewijn Rempt
> (Who ought to be writing, not hanging out here, but my brain's too tired
> to write decent fiction.)
Well, indecent fiction is fun, too. I finished the first sex scene between
my protagist and her friend last Sunday, and it was quite good, clean fun.
I felt like a kitten, testing out the various roll-overs :-).
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Jeremy Edmonds
> Now, urban fantasy seems to me to push a couple of buttons very hard. One
> of them is the intersection of reality with a hidden world. Another is
> escape into, or from, that hidden world. If you can point me at an urban
> fantasy that _doesn't_ contain either of those elements I'd be a wee bit
> surprised.
In my mind, the phrase "urban fantasy" is defined by an interstection
of "reality", our urban lifestyle today, with a hidden world (the
fantasy part of it.) So I don't think its possible to point to an
urban fantasy that does not contain those elements, by my personal
definition.
Now, you can stretch the genre by:
- moving away from the urban part of it (_Mythago Wood_ by Robert
Holdstock pops to mind as a good example)
- moving away from the hidden part of your definition (so that the
fantastical elements are everyday for the all of the characters
involved)
- get rid of the fantastical elements (I think we are leaving the
focus of this newsgroup with this one)
Do any of these still fall into the urban fantasy category? Not in my
mind, but that doesn't invalidate them as rich environments for futher
exploration.
Jeremy
Patricia C. Wrede
canis_...@excite.com (Jim Hetley) writes:
>They've muttered about October. Haven't seen the cover art with the
>flying, flaming dragon and the naked broad on its back waving a naked
>broadsword yet, though. (NB: neither appear in the text....)
"There's a bimbo on the cover of the book.
"There's a bimbo on the cover of the book.
"She is blonde and she is sexy.
"She is nowhere in the text; she
"Is the bimbo on the *cover* of the book."
I don't know all the other verses, nor who to credit it to, sorry....
Patricia C. Wrede
Richard Horton
<cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
>where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
>That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
>from the, well, escape.
Though Doyle and Macdonald did this (sort of) in one of their _Circle
of Magic_ books (not to be confused with Tamora Pierce's books). Of
course, the books were already set in a fantasy world. (And the
problem with elfland was temporary.)
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Richard Horton
<cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>Now, urban fantasy seems to me to push a couple of buttons very hard. One
>of them is the intersection of reality with a hidden world. Another is
>escape into, or from, that hidden world. If you can point me at an urban
>fantasy that _doesn't_ contain either of those elements I'd be a wee bit
>surprised.
One of the greatest (IMO) of all urban fantasies is Fritz Leiber's
_The Sinful Ones_. I think it only barely contains the either of
these elements, and I could argue that it doesn't really.
Bob Throllop
> I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot skeletons
> or mcguffins as being unavoidable. They are basically escapist structures
> targeting a reader with a sense of alienation who wants to tap into a
> sense of belonging, or of justifiable exceptionalism. You may not want to
> write an escapist yarn. Or you may have something deeper in mind -- an
> exploration of the aliens living among us, for example. Or you might
> want to do escapism, but be creative enough to come up with a wholly new
> plot format. Or you could dress one of the standard plots up in fancy new
> clothes so that it's almost unrecognizable. Or any combination of the
> above.
Or you might do the S.O.S. but make it really fun to read.
Dan Goodman
drago...@my-deja.com says...
> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> help will be appreciated.
Offhand, I think reading a fair amount of such fiction, and noting what
seems to turn up in most of them -- particularly the ones which strike
you as being less original -- is the best way to find that out.
Aside from that, I suggest: 1) Set it in a city you know well -- either
under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
know well.)
2) Use folklore which belongs in that city. That is, if it's a US or
Canadian city, the folklore of various ethnic groups which have lived
there. For instance, in Minneapolis that would include stuff from
Scandinavian, Letzeburgish, Jewish, Latvian, Serbian, Croatian, Greek,
Mexican, Somali, Hmong etc. sources. And, of course, the usual British
Isles stuff.
Speaking for myself: I'm a bit tired of Elfland's government being a
monarchy. I'd like to read something in which Elfland is a republic --
and humans are being recruited to do some kind of campaign work which
we're better at than elves.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Dan Goodman
cha...@nospam.antipope.org says...
> So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
> where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
> That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
> from the, well, escape.
One possibility: It's better in some ways, worse in others. Which
leaves the protagonist with at least these possibilities:
1) Stay in one world, and put up with its flaws.
2) Stay in one world, and work to improve it.
3) Commute between worlds.
4) Stay in one world till it becomes unbearable, and then go to the other
for a while.
5) Work to improve both worlds.
6) Look for another world, which won't have either our world's flaws or
Elfland's.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Dan Goodman
DCOUGH...@HOTMAIL.COM says...
> Making the elf/human subculture too much of a wish-fulfillment
> fantasy. There really isn't much in the orginal legends to make me
> think that living in the same neighborhood as a bunch of Fair Folk
> would be a good thing.
Some of the Irish and English ones are anti-pollution activists.
And some of the Scandinavian ones only use the Old Testament in their
religion because they're unfallen and therefore don't need the New
Testament.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Matthew Cline
unto us these blasphemous ravings:
> drago...@my-deja.com (the DragonBard) wrote in message
> news:<bc061810.02011...@posting.google.com>...
>> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
>> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
>> help will be appreciated.
> [with more passion than wisdom, I delurk again]
> Cliches to approach with extreme caution:
> Elfbabes who like human guys. (Arwen with sunglasses)
> Noble, stoic male elves who fight on the narrator's side,
You could try avoiding elves all together...
Eli Brandt
Charlie Stross <cha...@antipope.org> wrote:
>Now, urban fantasy seems to me to push a couple of buttons very hard. One
>of them is the intersection of reality with a hidden world. Another is
>escape into, or from, that hidden world. If you can point me at an urban
>fantasy that _doesn't_ contain either of those elements I'd be a wee bit
>surprised.
This makes me stop and think about a story of mine that has an ordinary
fellow encountering a hidden substructure of the world. So it fits your
description pretty closely, but my first thought was that it didn't -- I
guess because what's hidden is an empty `place', there's nobody to meet
there, so it doesn't feel to me like the kind of fantasy you're talking
about. Anyway you mean point you at *published*.
By "hidden world" do we mean a place or plane or substratum paralleling
the better-known world? There have to be stories where what's hidden is
not anything world-shaped but fantastic knowledge or power within this
world, but I can't name any. Stories where reality doesn't secretly
intersect with a magical world, but openly transmutes into one, yes;
Sean Stewart, for example.
_The Medusa Frequency_: what is it?
For a book that does technically fit your description, in spades, _Only
Forward_ goes in several unexpected directions.
And then there's fantasy-that's-urban, where the world is fantastic and
the setting is urban and there's no intersection with a mundane world,
but I think "urban fantasy" excludes that.
>A protagonist who discovers a hidden
>world is a classic escapist vehicle, a tool to allow the reader to get the
>hell away from the boring humdrum normality of everyday life.
The protagonist may also be from the hidden world to begin with.
_Agyar_, say.
>So what's left? You escape into elf-land and discover it's _worse_ than
>where you came from? More boring, more polluted, more claustrophobic?
>That ain't going to sell, unless the spin you put on it is one of escape
>from the, well, escape.
Needs a "horror" label to adjust expectations? Or it could be something
odd like _The Third Policeman_.
--
Eli Brandt | el...@cs.cmu.edu | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/
Marilee J. Layman
<cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>Consider: why do you read fantasy?
Because I know the author and/or it's been well-recommended by several
people I trust. I suspect this reaction is because I've read too many
really awful fantasies.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
The poem is by Rowland Shew (aka Michael Flynn) in Analog July 1992 ,
Maya Kaatherine Bohnhoff added verses.
Geoff Wedig
> Geoff Wedig <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote in message news:<a2784o$pas$1@eey
> ore.INS.cwru.edu>...
>> Zeborah <zeb...@altavista.com> wrote:
>>
>> > though, "Well, what does good UF do?" And I thought of Jim Hetley's
>> > "The Summer Country" (erm... not in bookstores yet) and was quite
>>
>> Yeah, do we have an ETA yet, on that, Jim? I want my wife to read it when
>> it comes out. She's much into good urban fantasy.
>>
>> Geoff
> They've muttered about October. Haven't seen the cover art with the
> flying, flaming dragon and the naked broad on its back waving a naked
> broadsword yet, though. (NB: neither appear in the text....)
Well, there is a dragon, and there are naked broads, but not in the same
scenes, IIRC. Don't recall any broadswords at all, but there were swords,
somewhere, weren't there?
Geoff
jhetley
> Jim Hetley <canis_...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > They've muttered about October. Haven't seen the cover art with the
> > flying, flaming dragon and the naked broad on its back waving a naked
> > broadsword yet, though. (NB: neither appear in the text....)
>
> Well, there is a dragon, and there are naked broads, but not in the same
> scenes, IIRC. Don't recall any broadswords at all, but there were swords,
> somewhere, weren't there?
>
No swords in use, anywhere. Dougal has a couple hanging on his bedroom
wall, but that's it. Both Brian and Maureen use Gurkha _kukri_ to commit
mayhem. I hope the artist and art director have a clue, but that's
unlikely.
And the dragon doesn't either fly _or_ flame.
Peter Knutsen
the DragonBard wrote:
>
> I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> help will be appreciated.
I've seen the term "Urban Fantasy" used in several different
contexts, each context suggesting a different meaning. So what
does it actually mean? What makes a story "Urban Fantasy"?
--
Peter Knutsen
Stuart Houghton
> I've seen the term "Urban Fantasy" used in several different
> contexts, each context suggesting a different meaning. So what
> does it actually mean? What makes a story "Urban Fantasy"?
>
I think it is usually a term for fantasy which is set in modern day cities
where the fantastic elements are discovered or layered over an existing
'regular' city.
e.g.
_Neverwhere_ - Neil Gaiman
_Roofworld_ - Christopher Fowler
_Outside the Dog Museum_ - Jonathan Carroll
_King Rat_ - China Mieville
...but it can also cover books where the fantastic elements are right up in
the foreground which are set in a city environment rather than the more
usual cod-medieval pastoral setting.
e.g.
_Rats and Gargoyles_ - Mary Gentle
_Perdido Street Station_ - China Mieville
_Gormenghast_ - Mervyn Peake
how does that sound?
--
Stuart Houghton
Dan Krashin
[snip]
> Aside from that, I suggest: 1) Set it in a city you know well -- either
> under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
> which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
> occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
> know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
> know well.)
Hmm, even with supernatural creatures, Topeka would still suck. :)
> 2) Use folklore which belongs in that city.
_American Gods_ did some very neat things with this concept.
> Speaking for myself: I'm a bit tired of Elfland's government being a
> monarchy. [...]
This has some neat possibilities. Marxist rebels, for instance. "The
Brownie Liberation Front rejects both Seelie and Unseelie courts! The
BLF denounces the cobblers and tailors who exploit our labor and pay
us only in milk!"
On a more topical note, how about the Islamic Republic of Djinnistan?
Danny
Geoff Wedig
> "Geoff Wedig" <we...@darwin.epbi.cwru.edu> wrote in message
> news:a299m5$4g4$7...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
>> Jim Hetley <canis_...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> > They've muttered about October. Haven't seen the cover art with the
>> > flying, flaming dragon and the naked broad on its back waving a naked
>> > broadsword yet, though. (NB: neither appear in the text....)
>>
>> Well, there is a dragon, and there are naked broads, but not in the same
>> scenes, IIRC. Don't recall any broadswords at all, but there were swords,
>> somewhere, weren't there?
>>
> No swords in use, anywhere. Dougal has a couple hanging on his bedroom
> wall, but that's it. Both Brian and Maureen use Gurkha _kukri_ to commit
> mayhem. I hope the artist and art director have a clue, but that's
> unlikely.
> And the dragon doesn't either fly _or_ flame.
No, it's an Oriental Dragon, IIRC (and I'm sure I did. I loved that bit
where it gets mentioned where the Dragon comes from). Of course, those
often flew (who needs wings?), but yours doesn't.
I didn't think any swords were used, just they were mentioned at some point,
I thought.
Geoff
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
rown...@yahoo.com (Jeremy Edmonds) wrote:
[...]
> In my mind, the phrase "urban fantasy" is defined by an
>interstection of "reality", our urban lifestyle today, with
>a hidden world (the fantasy part of it.) So I don't think
>its possible to point to an urban fantasy that does not
>contain those elements, by my personal definition.
What about imaginary cities? Are they "urban fantasy" if the
"urban" setting isn't ours?
Mary
Helen Kenyon
<bo...@rempt.xs4all.nl> writes
>Helen Kenyon <ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>
>> (Who ought to be writing, not hanging out here, but my brain's too tired
>> to write decent fiction.)
>
>Well, indecent fiction is fun, too. I finished the first sex scene between
>my protagist and her friend last Sunday, and it was quite good, clean fun.
>I felt like a kitten, testing out the various roll-overs :-).
>
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
For photos of North Wales, follow the link to the photo of the week.
**Please delete the extra bit from e-mail address if replying by mail**
Joann Zimmerman
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk says...
And what about fantasy set in cities, but in a previous historical
period? Is that urban fantasy, historical fantasy (which just might be
inclusive of urban fantasy), or alternate history?
The Work Getting Under Weigh appears to have elements of all of the
above; I'm trying to figure out if I really want to classify the thing or
wait until it classifies me.
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Brenda W. Clough
I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at www.analogsf.com
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Jim Hetley
I wants it.
Any source for the whole thing? Pretty please with sugar on it?
(Can't keep decades of magazines around; the attic joists are in
enough trouble as it is.)
Jim
Joann Zimmerman
> I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
Jack Vance's _The Night People_? (If Marin County isn't suburban, I don't
know what is, but it's still not Wal-Mart.)
Dan Goodman
dcough...@hotmail.com says...
> Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b150295...@news.visi.com>...
> [snip]
> > Aside from that, I suggest: 1) Set it in a city you know well -- either
> > under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
> > which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
> > occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
> > know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
> > know well.)
>
> Hmm, even with supernatural creatures, Topeka would still suck. :)
How about using it as a horror story setting?
> > 2) Use folklore which belongs in that city.
>
> _American Gods_ did some very neat things with this concept.
>
> > Speaking for myself: I'm a bit tired of Elfland's government being a
> > monarchy. [...]
>
> This has some neat possibilities. Marxist rebels, for instance. "The
> Brownie Liberation Front rejects both Seelie and Unseelie courts! The
> BLF denounces the cobblers and tailors who exploit our labor and pay
> us only in milk!"
>
> On a more topical note, how about the Islamic Republic of Djinnistan?
I've read that some of the djinn are indeed devout Muslims, so that _is_
a possibility. However, it probably won't be nearly as topical after the
editor who reads the story has read a bunch of equally-topical
manuscripts.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Brenda W. Clough
> Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<ecjf4uc1ntio11241...@4ax.com>...
> > On 18 Jan 2002 00:47:10 GMT, pwred...@aol.com (Patricia C. Wrede)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"There's a bimbo on the cover of the book.
> > >"There's a bimbo on the cover of the book.
> > >"She is blonde and she is sexy.
> > >"She is nowhere in the text; she
> > >"Is the bimbo on the *cover* of the book."
> > >
> > >I don't know all the other verses, nor who to credit it to, sorry....
> >
> > The poem is by Rowland Shew (aka Michael Flynn) in Analog July 1992 ,
> > Maya Kaatherine Bohnhoff added verses.
>
> I wants it.
>
> Any source for the whole thing? Pretty please with sugar on it?
>
It was sung, lustily, all five verses, at the Chicago worldcon, at a panel about How Publishing Works.
Brenda W. Clough
> In article <3C48A4EB...@erols.com>, clo...@erols.com says...
>
> > I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> > characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
>
> Jack Vance's _The Night People_? (If Marin County isn't suburban, I don't
> know what is, but it's still not Wal-Mart.)
>
Oh good, another practictioner! I thought I was the only one.
Dan Goodman
jz...@bellereti.com says...
> And what about fantasy set in cities, but in a previous historical
> period? Is that urban fantasy, historical fantasy (which just might be
> inclusive of urban fantasy), or alternate history?
>
> The Work Getting Under Weigh appears to have elements of all of the
> above; I'm trying to figure out if I really want to classify the thing or
> wait until it classifies me.
I can't tell you what you _want_. But I can say I think it's better to
finish it first, and then figure out what kind of editor to submit it to.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> Joann Zimmerman wrote:
> > In article <3C48A4EB...@erols.com>, clo...@erols.com says...
> >
> > > I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> > > characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
> >
> > Jack Vance's _The Night People_? (If Marin County isn't suburban, I don't
> > know what is, but it's still not Wal-Mart.)
>
> Oh good, another practictioner! I thought I was the only one.
Oh no. I've been calling the work-on-backburner 'suburban fantasy' for
quite some time.
It's hardly the only thing I write, but if I write anything whose
setting is at least superficially real-world-nowish, that's what it
comes out to.
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Just a world that we all must share, it's not enough just to stand and
stare: Is it only a dream that there'll be no more turning away?
--Pink Floyd, "On the Turning Away"
Jim Hetley
>
> I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
>
Around here, most of the Suburbans are made by Chevy....
Jim
(So that makes your subvariant a Chevy Chase?)
David J. Starr
> >
>
> I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
>
> Brenda
>
Actually those are Chevy Suburbans. The Jeep vehicle is called
Wagoneer. We must keep our SUV's straight...
--
David J. Starr
Dst...@TheWorld.com
Matthew Cline
> ...but it can also cover books where the fantastic elements are right up
> in the foreground which are set in a city environment rather than the more
> usual cod-medieval pastoral setting.
>
> e.g.
>
> _Rats and Gargoyles_ - Mary Gentle
> _Perdido Street Station_ - China Mieville
> _Gormenghast_ - Mervyn Peake
I'd also include the "Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter" series, by Laurell K.
Hamilton.
the DragonBard
As the guy who started the original thread, I figured I would put my
two cents worth in.
To 'me,' urban fantasy is synonimous with contemporary fantasy.
However, unlike some forms of contemporary fantasy, urban fantasy
remains (primarily) in the 'real world' There is also a varient where
magic is mundane and part of everyday life, replacing most technology
(such as Case of the Toxic Spelldump, and Operation Chaos/Luna.)
Of course, this is just my opinion.
the DragonBard
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > help will be appreciated.
>
> mechanics, trolls as night club bouncers, that sort of thing. In fact,
> the faerie court, and internal wars therein, is about as much of a cliche
> in this branch of fantasy as the Dark Lord's tower in a certain other
> branch of fantasy.
>
> Standard plot #1 is that your protagonist is a human being with a talent
> attractive to the fair folk who therefore gets sucked into a struggle/love
> affair/misunderstanding with them and gets to see all sorts of wild and
> wooly things living in the margins of society.
>
> Standard plot #2 is that your protagonist slowly discovers that they're
> actually a changeling and a member of the fair folk as they get sucked
> into a struggle/love affair/misunderstanding with them and get to see
> all sorts of (etc).
>
> The fair folk in either version tend to be portrayed as (a) a tattered
> remnant of their original power (because us Moorlocks have filled the
> world with cold iron and/or machinery and/or people), or (b) withdrawn
> from their old interaction with humanity (because us Moorlocks have etc).
>
> The commonest McGuffin consists of access to a spirit/ghost/sidhe world
> that comes with all sorts of FDA-mandated warnings ('CAUTION: Human beings
> may not experience a prolonged life in this environment') but into which
> it is necessary for our protagonist to bravely go in order to rescue
> the love interest/find the villain/retrieve the missing plot coupon.
>
> Another McGuffin is: mysterious power dumped on human who doesn't know
> how to use it (for equally mysterious reasons except that, being the
> protagonist -- usually -- they're an exceptional human).
>
> For dark variations, replace 'sidhe' or 'fair folk' with 'vampires' and
> 'undead' -- see, for example, Nany Collins.
>
> I'd like to stress that I don't see either of the standard plot skeletons
> or mcguffins as being unavoidable. They are basically escapist structures
> targeting a reader with a sense of alienation who wants to tap into a
> sense of belonging, or of justifiable exceptionalism. You may not want to
> write an escapist yarn. Or you may have something deeper in mind -- an
> exploration of the aliens living among us, for example. Or you might
> want to do escapism, but be creative enough to come up with a wholly new
> plot format. Or you could dress one of the standard plots up in fancy new
> clothes so that it's almost unrecognizable. Or any combination of the
> above.
>
> Does this help?
Yeah.
Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
much more than that at the moment)
Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
as the case may be) presence and protection.
The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
Whattcha think?
jhetley
news:MPG.16b150295...@news.visi.com...
<snipped>
> Speaking for myself: I'm a bit tired of Elfland's government being a
> monarchy. I'd like to read something in which Elfland is a republic --
> and humans are being recruited to do some kind of campaign work which
> we're better at than elves.
>
Mine's a rather nasty anarchy.
Boudewijn Rempt
> In article <a27hq7$dq9$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, Boudewijn Rempt
> <bo...@rempt.xs4all.nl> writes
>>Helen Kenyon <ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>>
>>> (Who ought to be writing, not hanging out here, but my brain's too tired
>>> to write decent fiction.)
>>
>>Well, indecent fiction is fun, too. I finished the first sex scene between
>>my protagist and her friend last Sunday, and it was quite good, clean fun.
>>I felt like a kitten, testing out the various roll-overs :-).
>>
> Ah, method writing strikes again.
I think this remark went past me with the airspeed of an unladen
African swallow.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Erol K. Bayburt
>
> I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
Gah, this is germinating an old story-seed of mine, about an elven
princess exiled into this world. Now I've got visions of her living
in the suburbs, driving an SUV, and shopping at Wal Mart. Divorced,
with two children.
Messages come to her "Your father is dead. All is forgiven. Come back
and take the throne." And she has to fight the messengers off. She
doesn't want to go back; she prefers it here. She *likes* the suburbs
and SUVs and Wal Mart and indoor plumbing and central heating and
air conditioning and gas stoves and electric power and surfing the
internet. Whereas elfland is still full of medieval squalor and poverty,
even with elven magic.
Of course she can't go to the authorities for help; she doesn't dare
draw attention to her own bogus ID, set up when she first came into
our world...
I don't need this now. I need to finish the last few chapters of my WIP.
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com
Charlie Stross
> Gah, this is germinating an old story-seed of mine, about an elven
> princess exiled into this world. Now I've got visions of her living
> in the suburbs, driving an SUV, and shopping at Wal Mart. Divorced,
> with two children.
Don't Do It. Laurell K. Hamilton already has (with added sex and
violence, and minus the children).
-- Charlie
Charlie Stross
as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
> Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
> much more than that at the moment)
>
> Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
> is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
> moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
> supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
> as the case may be) presence and protection.
>
> The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
> life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
> elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
>
> Whattcha think?
What makes this _urban_ fantasy?
Are you planning on setting it in a version of our own world where
magic not only works, but is an accepted part of everyday life (along
the lines of Heinlein's "Magic, Inc")? Or are you planning on setting it
in a historical-looking background -- just in the big city instead of
in a rural landscape?
Another point that strikes me is that this isn't a plot: it's a
description of a general idea. Plot implies development and direction,
and this idea doesn't have that. (Not saying that it can't -- just that
you haven't built any kind of plot trajectory into this outline other
than learning-to-stand-on-his-own-two-feet experiences.)
I think your background, and characters other than your protagonist,
are going to have more impact on what you come up with than you
seem to realise right now. Because unless you come up with a plot
skeleton, you're going to be dealing with a picaresque series of
incidents -- and the development of the book is therefore going to be
heavily character-dominated.
At least, there's my 0.02 euros.
-- Charlie
Irina Rempt
> Helen Kenyon <ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>> Ah, method writing strikes again.
>
> I think this remark went past me with the airspeed of an unladen
> African swallow.
"Immersive writing" in the jargon you and I know.
Irina
--
ir...@valdyas.org
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/index.html (English)
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)
Chad Ryan Thomas
Oh, come on. Just because something's been done already doesn't mean it
shouldn't be done again. (Now there's an example of a double negative that
*isn't* logically unnecessary.)
What's Hamilton's title, by the way. The idea of an elven soccer mom is
oddly compelling.
--
****** Chad Ryan Thomas *********** crth...@asu.edu ******
/ "I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be\
\ content." -- St. Paul (Phil. 4:11, KJV) /
*********** http://www.public.asu.edu/~crthomas ***********
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
Maya doesn't seem to have a website, googling just brings up a con
where she was a guest. You might ask on rec.music.filk, I'm sure
someone there will have it in toto.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
TLambs1138
setting, not someone else's, for instance. Say, local farm problems caused by a
population explosion among the leprechauns (didn't you know that was the actual
cause of the Great Blight?). And not just the usual ones--losing your Japanese
market certification because of the infestation, having to deal with the local
Extension Office to find methods to deal with them, having Queen Mab show up at
the Bureau of Land Management hearing--well, you know. The usual. (now if I can
think of an ending to this blasted story, it's half-written already, drat it!).
Jean Lamb, tlamb...@cs.com
"Fun will now commence!" - Seven of Nine
Helen Kenyon
<bo...@rempt.xs4all.nl> writes
>Helen Kenyon <ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>> In article <a27hq7$dq9$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, Boudewijn Rempt
>> <bo...@rempt.xs4all.nl> writes
>>>
>>>my protagist and her friend last Sunday, and it was quite good, clean fun.
>>>I felt like a kitten, testing out the various roll-overs :-).
>>>
>> Ah, method writing strikes again.
>
>I think this remark went past me with the airspeed of an unladen
>African swallow.
>
thinking along those lines. Unless I entirely misunderstood your post,
I thought you said you were acting out the moves. If you weren't acting
out the moves, then I do beg your pardon.
Helen
(Who has been known to act out movements occasionally.)
[*] The classic example being when the method actor leaves the room and
runs up and down the stairs because he has to play a scene where he's
out of breath. After a couple of takes, with the young actor becoming
more and more exhausted, the old pro of the traditional schools says,
"Dear boy, why don't you just try acting?"
Jim Cannon
> In article <bc061810.02011...@posting.google.com>,
> drago...@my-deja.com says...
> > I'm working on an urban fantasy, and wanted to know what sort of
> > things have/are becoming the cliche/sterotypes of this genre? Any
> > help will be appreciated.
>
> seems to turn up in most of them -- particularly the ones which strike
> you as being less original -- is the best way to find that out.
>
> Aside from that, I suggest: 1) Set it in a city you know well -- either
> under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
> which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
> occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
> know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
> know well.)
Good suggestion. Note that a visit to the library or Barnes & Noble
can get you some decent cityguides and/or histories of certain cities.
I'm using Seattle myself, and trying to write it in such a way that a
native Seattlite will believe the setting, but also hoping that people
who know Seattle will be a tiny fraction of the audience. Unfortunetly
I'm on the other side of the continent, so research time cuts into
writing time.
My model is Robert B. Parker's Boston, actually. When you read a
Spenser novel, you know that Parker is familiar with the city and it
makes the story feel a great deal more genuine. Perhaps that's because
I, myself am familiar with the Boston area. Regardless, it's a good
idea to know your setting top to bottom, forwards and backwards.
> 2) Use folklore which belongs in that city. That is, if it's a US or
> Canadian city, the folklore of various ethnic groups which have lived
> there. For instance, in Minneapolis that would include stuff from
> Scandinavian, Letzeburgish, Jewish, Latvian, Serbian, Croatian, Greek,
> Mexican, Somali, Hmong etc. sources. And, of course, the usual British
> Isles stuff.
A good place to start, but don't feel you have to constrain yourself
to folklore. Someone has to get it wrong after all; not every belief
held by every culture on Earth can be valid. The world would be
awfully crowded if they were. Don't be afraid to do something alien
and strange -- Lovecraft kind of straddles the line between horror and
urban fantasy, I think; he's as good a model as Mercedes Lackey for
this sort of thing.
> Speaking for myself: I'm a bit tired of Elfland's government being a
> monarchy. I'd like to read something in which Elfland is a republic --
> and humans are being recruited to do some kind of campaign work which
> we're better at than elves.
Or chuck the elves out the window altogether. Once again, there are a
lot of different cultures on Earth, and not all of their beliefs in
the fantastic are predicated on elfin beings.
Frex, an urban fantasy utilizing Greek mythology as its base could
tell the tale of a modern day child of Zeus (or Aphrodite, or
Poseidon, or whoever), or try to find a home for a Greek monster in
the modern day. I've seen at least one novel that has the Minotaur
working as a short-order cook in a mid-western American city.
Chinese dragons, Arabian djinn, Indian nagas or daityas, African
hai-ari or sansabonsam. . . there are a lot of strange and exciting
concepts that haven't yet been plundered the way elves have.
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, you can also make use of
figures that are more traditionally associated with horror: vampires,
werewolves, mummies, and the like. Anita Blake and White Wolf have
certainly shown there's a market for such things.
In closing, don't be afraid of cliches. They become cliched for a
reason: they work. The trick, of course, is to reinvent them at least
a little.
Jim Cannon
Brenda W. Clough
>
> Gah, this is germinating an old story-seed of mine, about an elven
> princess exiled into this world. Now I've got visions of her living
> in the suburbs, driving an SUV, and shopping at Wal Mart. Divorced,
> with two children.
>
> Messages come to her "Your father is dead. All is forgiven. Come back
> and take the throne." And she has to fight the messengers off. She
> doesn't want to go back; she prefers it here. She *likes* the suburbs
> and SUVs and Wal Mart and indoor plumbing and central heating and
> air conditioning and gas stoves and electric power and surfing the
> internet. Whereas elfland is still full of medieval squalor and poverty,
> even with elven magic.
>
Suggest that you lay the groundwork for it now, however, by downloading and printing out all
those recent news stories about Afghan refugees going back home to Kabul to help run the
government. People who fled the country 40 years ago and have lived in American suburbia ever
since, now heading back to where mud-brick is the building material of choice. (By the time you
actually have time to write the novel these stories will have scrolled off the newspaper buffers
and you'll have to pay to see them.)
Brenda W. Clough
> "Brenda W. Clough" wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
> > characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
> >
> > Brenda
> >
> Actually those are Chevy Suburbans. The Jeep vehicle is called
> Wagoneer. We must keep our SUV's straight...
>
Oh, right. I'm a minivan mom myself, so such distinctions get blurred. (In
a Contemporary Suburban Fantasy the minivans ought to have fake wood paneling
on the sides and have many many cupholders.)
Boudewijn Rempt
>>
> It was on another thread. You know about method acting?[*] Well I was
Er, no -- I basically don't kow anything about acting at all.
> thinking along those lines. Unless I entirely misunderstood your post,
> I thought you said you were acting out the moves. If you weren't acting
> out the moves, then I do beg your pardon.
Oh yes -- I wanted to be sure I did have the, er, anatomical details
correct. I mean, it's more a game of rolling over, looking at each
other, looking away and looking back again, and I didn't want them to
turn their backs at each other at a crucial moment. A simple thing like
the attempt at seduction the ginger cat perpetrates on the protagonist,
I could visualize with ease :-).
> Helen
> (Who has been known to act out movements occasionally.)
> [*] The classic example being when the method actor leaves the room and
> runs up and down the stairs because he has to play a scene where he's
> out of breath. After a couple of takes, with the young actor becoming
> more and more exhausted, the old pro of the traditional schools says,
> "Dear boy, why don't you just try acting?"
Grin... Perhaps I should read up on the subject. But I've just started
Classical Plot and the Invention of Western Narrative.
Tim S
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
> > much more than that at the moment)
> >
> > Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
> > is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
> > moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
> > supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
> > as the case may be) presence and protection.
> >
> > The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
> > life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
> > elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
> >
> > Whattcha think?
>
>
> Another point that strikes me is that this isn't a plot: it's a
> description of a general idea. Plot implies development and direction,
> and this idea doesn't have that. (Not saying that it can't -- just that
> you haven't built any kind of plot trajectory into this outline other
> than learning-to-stand-on-his-own-two-feet experiences.)
>
> I think your background, and characters other than your protagonist,
> are going to have more impact on what you come up with than you
> seem to realise right now. Because unless you come up with a plot
> skeleton, you're going to be dealing with a picaresque series of
> incidents -- and the development of the book is therefore going to be
> heavily character-dominated.
>
> At least, there's my 0.02 euros.
FWIW (whether in euros or sterling), that's what struck me too.
Tim
Patricia C. Wrede
T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk (Tim S) writes:
>Charlie Stross <cha...@nospam.antipope.org>
>> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>>
>> > Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
>> > much more than that at the moment)
>> >
>> > Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
>> > is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
>> > moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
>> > supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
>> > as the case may be) presence and protection.
>> >
>> > The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
>> > life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
>> > elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
>> Another point that strikes me is that this isn't a plot: it's a
>> description of a general idea. Plot implies development and direction,
>> and this idea doesn't have that. (Not saying that it can't -- just that
>FWIW (whether in euros or sterling), that's what struck me too.
Yup. The character has no particular goal in mind (that's mentioned, anyway)
-- no central problem to solve, nothing he wants to get or get rid of, nothing
he wants to make happen or prevent happening. You *could* do a slice-of-life
or a picaresque book out of this sort of set-up, but it's not really a plot.
"Coming-of-age" is more a classification than a plot -- like "quest fantasy,"
it tells you what the general direction of the story will be, but it doesn't
tell you any specifics (like "what is the quest *for*?"). It's...nebulous and
fuzzy.
Patricia C. Wrede
Jim Hetley
Well, operating under a stroke of natural genius, I googled on the
title. Found the original version. Don't know about any additional
verses.
Thanks anyway.
Jim
Brian M. Scott
<cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
>as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>> Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
>> much more than that at the moment)
>> Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
>> is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
>> moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
>> supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
>> as the case may be) presence and protection.
>> The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
>> life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
>> elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
>> Whattcha think?
[...]
>Another point that strikes me is that this isn't a plot: it's a
>description of a general idea. Plot implies development and direction,
>and this idea doesn't have that. (Not saying that it can't -- just that
>you haven't built any kind of plot trajectory into this outline other
>than learning-to-stand-on-his-own-two-feet experiences.)
Agreed. It wouldn't take much to give it direction though. If the
emphasis really is to be on his growth, it would suffice to give him a
goal -- achieving mastery, perhaps, or if that's too ambitious, simply
making a place for himself in a tight-knit community that doesn't
easily welcome outsiders.
[...]
Brian
Mary K. Kuhner
>I'm using Seattle myself, and trying to write it in such a way that a
>native Seattlite will believe the setting, but also hoping that people
>who know Seattle will be a tiny fraction of the audience. Unfortunetly
>I'm on the other side of the continent [...]
If you need reality checking for specifics, I'd be happy to try.
I'm in the University District, though, so I'm no expert on
Renton or Bellevue.
In my try-to-write-fast experiment recently, I set something only
five blocks from my house. When I went and looked at the spot,
I was very surprised how far my mental model had diverged from
the reality. Of course, I wasn't trying to be accurate, just
snatching at an available model--2000 words a sitting is a pace
that, for me, doesn't allow *any* kind of finesse.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Charlie Stross
>>
>>> Gah, this is germinating an old story-seed of mine, about an elven
>>> princess exiled into this world. Now I've got visions of her living
>>> in the suburbs, driving an SUV, and shopping at Wal Mart. Divorced,
>>> with two children.
>>
>>Don't Do It. Laurell K. Hamilton already has (with added sex and
>>violence, and minus the children).
>
> Oh, come on. Just because something's been done already doesn't mean it
> shouldn't be done again. (Now there's an example of a double negative that
> *isn't* logically unnecessary.)
Ah, but I'm warning against doing it because the waters have been
poisoned by a complete stinker of a novel by a big-ish name. (I defy
you to tell me that "A Kiss of Shadows" isn't a stinker.) Which, if
there's a serious goal in mind, would make any subsequent book a bit
hard to sell unless there's a new angle to emphasize.
-- Charlie
Jim Cannon
unto the masses...
> Jim Cannon <can...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm using Seattle myself, and trying to write it in such a way that a
> >native Seattlite will believe the setting, but also hoping that people
> >who know Seattle will be a tiny fraction of the audience. Unfortunetly
> >I'm on the other side of the continent [...]
>
> If you need reality checking for specifics, I'd be happy to try.
> I'm in the University District, though, so I'm no expert on
> Renton or Bellevue.
So far I've mostly used Fremont and Capital Hill, with some side trips
out to the Underground, the Seattle Art Museum, and the grave of Jimi
Hendrix. I do have a few characters at the University of Washington,
but I'm not sure yet how much time I'm going to spend there.
> In my try-to-write-fast experiment recently, I set something only
> five blocks from my house. When I went and looked at the spot,
> I was very surprised how far my mental model had diverged from
> the reality. Of course, I wasn't trying to be accurate, just
> snatching at an available model--2000 words a sitting is a pace
> that, for me, doesn't allow *any* kind of finesse.
That's actually rather encouraging. I know I cannot conjure up a
snapshot of a setting (yet), but if I can evoke enough of a. . .
feeling of familiarity, something that jibes with the reader's mental
model, then I'm more than halfway there. A trip out to Seattle is on
the agenda, however. Guidebooks and history books can only provide
*so* much information. I know, for example, that I've probably
overdone the rain already.
Jim Cannon
Dan Goodman
> much more than that at the moment)
>
> Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
> is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
> moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
> supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
> as the case may be) presence and protection.
>
> The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
> life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
> elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
>
> Whattcha think?
I think it needs something to serve as the climax. Which doesn't need to
be Big Huge Monstrous Problem Solved. It could be him completing his
"residency".
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Dan Goodman
tlamb...@cs.com says...
The Immigration and Naturalization Service rounds up the leprechauns --
none of whom can prove legal residency. The older ones are sent back to
Ireland. The younger ones will spend the rest of their lives dealing
with Federal courts and bureaucracies -- unless they take the opportunity
to quietly slip over the border into Canada.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Dan Goodman
deja.com says...
> > under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
> > which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
> > occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
> > know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
> > know well.)
>
> Good suggestion. Note that a visit to the library or Barnes & Noble
> can get you some decent cityguides and/or histories of certain cities.
But there are things which you will not find in the guidebooks. For
example, I've not yet seen a guide to Chicago which explains that Devon
Avenue is pronounced daVON. Which is something any Chicagoan is likely to
know -- though there are people in the suburbs who don't.
> I'm using Seattle myself, and trying to write it in such a way that a
> native Seattlite will believe the setting, but also hoping that people
> who know Seattle will be a tiny fraction of the audience. Unfortunetly
> I'm on the other side of the continent, so research time cuts into
> writing time.
How well do you know Seattle? And how recently?
> My model is Robert B. Parker's Boston, actually. When you read a
> Spenser novel, you know that Parker is familiar with the city and it
> makes the story feel a great deal more genuine. Perhaps that's because
> I, myself am familiar with the Boston area. Regardless, it's a good
> idea to know your setting top to bottom, forwards and backwards.
>
> > 2) Use folklore which belongs in that city. That is, if it's a US or
> > Canadian city, the folklore of various ethnic groups which have lived
> > there. For instance, in Minneapolis that would include stuff from
> > Scandinavian, Letzeburgish, Jewish, Latvian, Serbian, Croatian, Greek,
> > Mexican, Somali, Hmong etc. sources. And, of course, the usual British
> > Isles stuff.
>
> A good place to start, but don't feel you have to constrain yourself
> to folklore. Someone has to get it wrong after all; not every belief
> held by every culture on Earth can be valid. The world would be
> awfully crowded if they were.
Maybe it is -- and a claustrophobe who learns to see things as they
really are is going to have a very, very hard time coping.
> Don't be afraid to do something alien
> and strange -- Lovecraft kind of straddles the line between horror and
> urban fantasy,
When Lovecraft was writing, his category was fantasy -- which at that
time included most of what would today be classed as horror, I believe.
Urban fantasy didn't yet exist as a category.
> I think; he's as good a model as Mercedes Lackey for
> this sort of thing.
For me, he would be a lot better. I've given up reading Lackey's fiction.
> In closing, don't be afraid of cliches. They become cliched for a
> reason: they work.
But sometimes they STOP working.
World War Three between the US and the Soviet Union, for example.
Avoiding that one is a no-brainer. (It can still be done in alternate
history, of course.)
Others aren't as obvious.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Chad Ryan Thomas
>poisoned by a complete stinker of a novel by a big-ish name.
Oh, didn't get the "stinker" angle from your last post.
TLambs1138
>none of whom can prove legal residency. The older ones are sent back to
>Ireland. The younger ones will spend the rest of their lives dealing
>with Federal courts and bureaucracies -- unless they take the opportunity
>to quietly slip over the border into Canada.
>
>--
>Dan Goodman
>dsg...@visi.com
Hmm. I'm mulling this one over. But enforcement would be _extremely_ difficult
(they tunnel, you know). Of course, the Aryan Nation over in Idaho had their
_own_ methods of dealing with the leppers, but there was a big lawsuit over
that one (Idaho also being a big potato-growing state). The ones in Maine have
made a treaty with the native tommyknockers (_see_ King, Stephen) and are being
increasingly difficult to find before it's too late to save the crop.
I like this variation, but it won't resolve the problem as much as peope think.
Hmm.
Jonathan L Cunningham
said:
>Oh, come on. Just because something's been done already doesn't mean it
>shouldn't be done again. (Now there's an example of a double negative that
>*isn't* logically unnecessary.)
Logically equivalent to: "It is sometimes ok to do something
that has been done already."
You still think you need the double negative? ;-).
Jonathan
(Derivation for the unconvinced:
not( done already -> should not do again )
= not( done already -> not ok do again )
= not( not done already or not ok do again )
= done already and ok do again
= ok do again and done already
= sometimes ok do again and done already
)
And yes, I do run through the derivation (in my head) in order to
accurately rephrase :-). The "sometimes" is not logically
necessary, but weakening the logical meaning works better
pragmatically. After all, you are not *encouraging* people to
do again what has been done before, which is *pragmatically*
implied by the double negatives.
Cf:
Quentin: Do you love me?
Avaline: I don't *not* love you.
Logically, Aveline's answer means the same as "I love you" but
somehow it doesn't sound quite the same, even if Quentin is
a logician :-).
--
Jonathan L Cunningham
Chad Ryan Thomas
<3c4b0906....@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
>On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:57:52 GMT, crth...@asu.edu (Chad Ryan Thomas)
>said:
>
>>Oh, come on. Just because something's been done already doesn't mean
>>it shouldn't be done again. (Now there's an example of a double
>>negative that *isn't* logically unnecessary.)
>
>Logically equivalent to: "It is sometimes ok to do something
>that has been done already."
>
>You still think you need the double negative? ;-).
Well, you're right. And I knew this when I posted. I was saying it in
light of my post in another thread, where I'd said that in most cases,
eliminating pairs of negatives didn't change the logical meaning of the
sentence. Just eliminating the pair of negatives above produces
(Done Already)=>(Should do again), which is certainly not what I meant.
> = not( done already -> not ok do again )
> = not( not done already or not ok do again )
That's a tricky one. I had to think a bit to get that step.
slee...@gmx.co.uk
I think the bit where the main character is actually a soccer mom
would qualify as a really astonishingly different angle. Besides,
if I were to compare such a story (sight-unseen) to an existing
work, it'd be to Fair Peril, by Author Whose Name Escapes Me,
which I haven't read in ages, but which seems much more similar
in intent.
(And yes, A Kiss of Shadows stank to the sky. It was basically
pornography, which is all well and good, except it was truly and
arrestingly /bad/ pornography. I think my roommate actually threw
it away.)
--Squid, back to having server problems. Grr.
Dan Goodman
tlamb...@cs.com says...
> >The Immigration and Naturalization Service rounds up the leprechauns --
> >none of whom can prove legal residency. The older ones are sent back to
> >Ireland. The younger ones will spend the rest of their lives dealing
> >with Federal courts and bureaucracies -- unless they take the opportunity
> >to quietly slip over the border into Canada.
> >
> >--
> >Dan Goodman
> >dsg...@visi.com
>
> Hmm. I'm mulling this one over. But enforcement would be _extremely_ difficult
> (they tunnel, you know). Of course, the Aryan Nation over in Idaho had their
> _own_ methods of dealing with the leppers, but there was a big lawsuit over
> that one (Idaho also being a big potato-growing state). The ones in Maine have
> made a treaty with the native tommyknockers (_see_ King, Stephen) and are being
> increasingly difficult to find before it's too late to save the crop.
King thoroughly misused the word "tommyknocker"! The word has a real
meaning: They're creatures who live underground, and who are sometimes
friendly to miners and sometimes not. They're native to Cornwall, under
several names -- "knocker" being among them. ("Tommyknocker" may be
found only in the US.) Cornish miners brought the legend(s) to various
parts of the US. For example, Tommyknocker soda is bottled in Colorado.
> I like this variation, but it won't resolve the problem as much as peope think.
> Hmm.
>
>
> Jean Lamb, tlamb...@cs.com
> "Fun will now commence!" - Seven of Nine
>
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
Lucy Kemnitzer
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>Joann Zimmerman wrote:
>
>> In article <3C48A4EB...@erols.com>, clo...@erols.com says...
>>
>> > I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
>> > characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
>>
>> Jack Vance's _The Night People_? (If Marin County isn't suburban, I don't
>> know what is, but it's still not Wal-Mart.)
>>
>
>Oh good, another practictioner! I thought I was the only one.
I have one for down the line which is set in a densely populated
agricultural community -- what is that? Rural? Suburban? Urban?
(Las Lomas, sort of thing, for those who know the area)
Lucy Kemnitzer
Shana Rosenfeld
: Joann Zimmerman wrote:
:> In article <3C48A4EB...@erols.com>, clo...@erols.com says...
:>
:> > I would add my own fave subvariant, the Suburban Fantasy. In which the
:> > characters all drive Jeep Suburbans and shop at Wal Mart.
:>
:> Jack Vance's _The Night People_? (If Marin County isn't suburban, I don't
:> know what is, but it's still not Wal-Mart.)
:>
: Oh good, another practictioner! I thought I was the only one.
I think Esther Friesner's _Elf Defense_ qualifies. The heroine is a
lawyer, using nontraditional and mundane methods of combating the elves.
--
Shana L. Rosenfeld sh...@westnet.com
Jim Cannon
> In article <8ed52049.02011...@posting.google.com>, cannon@my-
> deja.com says...
> > Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> didst say unto the masses...
> > > Aside from that, I suggest: 1) Set it in a city you know well -- either
> > > under its own name, or a fictional city based on it. And use details
> > > which someone who doesn't know that city -- or knows it only through
> > > occasional shopping trips -- wouldn't be likely to know. (If you don't
> > > know any city that well? At least think about using a setting you _do_
> > > know well.)
> >
> > Good suggestion. Note that a visit to the library or Barnes & Noble
> > can get you some decent cityguides and/or histories of certain cities.
>
> But there are things which you will not find in the guidebooks. For
> example, I've not yet seen a guide to Chicago which explains that Devon
> Avenue is pronounced daVON. Which is something any Chicagoan is likely to
> know -- though there are people in the suburbs who don't.
Absolutely. Guidebooks are a start only.
> > I'm using Seattle myself, and trying to write it in such a way that a
> > native Seattlite will believe the setting, but also hoping that people
> > who know Seattle will be a tiny fraction of the audience. Unfortunetly
> > I'm on the other side of the continent, so research time cuts into
> > writing time.
>
> How well do you know Seattle? And how recently?
Not well at all. But I'm working on it.
> > In closing, don't be afraid of cliches. They become cliched for a
> > reason: they work.
>
> But sometimes they STOP working.
>
> World War Three between the US and the Soviet Union, for example.
> Avoiding that one is a no-brainer. (It can still be done in alternate
> history, of course.)
Well, exactly. If you can come up with an interesting way to present a
cliched idea, then go ahead and do it. But if you're just going to
churn out the same old crap... go back to the drawing board.
Jim Cannon
Dan Goodman
deja.com says...
> > How well do you know Seattle? And how recently?
>
> Not well at all. But I'm working on it.
Why did you pick Seattle, rather than a setting you were more familiar
with?
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
the DragonBard
times.
As for where I'm going, it's basically a look at what life is like for
a wizard as they try and discover just who they are, in a world where
there is magic all around, if you can see it.
Though I'll try and work on more of a plot. Part of why I'm asking
this question, to see what I should avoid in making the plot.
Charlie Stross <cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote in message news:<slrna4j4e3....@raq981.uk2net.com.antipope.org>...
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <drago...@my-deja.com> declared:
>
> > Figure I'll give you an idea of the general plot (since I don't have
> > much more than that at the moment)
> >
> > Basically, a mage has just recently completed his apprenticeship, and
> > is now starting his period as a journeyman. He gets a new job, and
> > moves to a new town where he has to learn to deal with the
> > supernatural natives, without the benefit of his master's (or mistress
> > as the case may be) presence and protection.
> >
> > The rest of the story just follows him as he tries to get some real
> > life experience (magical version of a residency) dealing with
> > elementals, faeries, other mages, and various other similar things.
> >
> > Whattcha think?
>
> What makes this _urban_ fantasy?
>
> Are you planning on setting it in a version of our own world where
> magic not only works, but is an accepted part of everyday life (along
> the lines of Heinlein's "Magic, Inc")? Or are you planning on setting it
> in a historical-looking background -- just in the big city instead of
> in a rural landscape?
>
> Another point that strikes me is that this isn't a plot: it's a
> description of a general idea. Plot implies development and direction,
> and this idea doesn't have that. (Not saying that it can't -- just that
> you haven't built any kind of plot trajectory into this outline other
> than learning-to-stand-on-his-own-two-feet experiences.)
>
> I think your background, and characters other than your protagonist,
> are going to have more impact on what you come up with than you
> seem to realise right now. Because unless you come up with a plot
> skeleton, you're going to be dealing with a picaresque series of
> incidents -- and the development of the book is therefore going to be
> heavily character-dominated.
>
> At least, there's my 0.02 euros.
>
>
> -- Charlie
the DragonBard
1) the wizard trying to reach Master rank.
2) trying to adapt to life on his own, without his master/teacher
their for guidance/support.
Both of which are reflections of the wizard trying to prove himself to
himself.
pwred...@aol.com (Patricia C. Wrede) wrote in message news:<20020119213040...@mb-fa.aol.com>...
the DragonBard
direction his life is going to be going in.
Should have tried to make that plainer.
b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote in message news:<3c4a3d38....@enews.newsguy.com>...
the DragonBard
I'm leaning in that direction. Though it will most likely be only a
step towards reaching Master level/rank.
It will also be about, living on your own, and learning how to deal
with wizards/supernatural beings without backup.
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b4b8d95...@news.visi.com>...
the DragonBard
'is' right. However, none are absolutely right.
Many of the supernatural aspects of this world, are dependent upon
perceptions and viewpoints. Thus, what one percieves often effects
how they will react to/interact with various types of spirits and
supernatural beings.
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.16b4bf0fe...@news.visi.com>...
Helgi Briem
<ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>[*] The classic example being when the method actor leaves the room and
>runs up and down the stairs because he has to play a scene where he's
>out of breath. After a couple of takes, with the young actor becoming
>more and more exhausted, the old pro of the traditional schools says,
>"Dear boy, why don't you just try acting?"
Supposedly said by Sir Laurence Olivier to Dustin
Hoffman on the set of Marathon Man.
--
Regards, Helgi Briem
helgi AT decode DOT is
Bob Throllop
I think the whole idea is completely gay.
Charlie Stross
> I think the whole idea is completely gay.
What homophobic trolls think is of no interest to anyone else on this
newsgroup.
Move along, now.
-- Charlie
TLambs1138
> Dan Goodman
>King thoroughly misused the word "tommyknocker"! The word has a real
>meaning: They're creatures who live underground, and who are sometimes
>friendly to miners and sometimes not. They're native to Cornwall, under
>several names -- "knocker" being among them. ("Tommyknocker" may be
>found only in the US.) Cornish miners brought the legend(s) to various
>parts of the US. For example, Tommyknocker soda is bottled in Colorado.
>
>
likely could help finance their legal defense (I mean, some of the leprechaun
family lines came over on coffin ships back the mid-1800s, so if any of them
bothered to apply for any of the amnesty programs, they'd be pretty hard to
get rid of).
But legal confusion _is_ a thought. But with gold hanging at $270 an ounce,
those little pots at the end of the rainbow aren't going to be as helpful as
maybe they think.
Patricia C. Wrede
drago...@my-deja.com (the DragonBard) writes:
>The plot (if I even have one as yet) is set around two things:
>1) the wizard trying to reach Master rank.
>2) trying to adapt to life on his own, without his master/teacher
>their for guidance/support.
>
>Both of which are reflections of the wizard trying to prove himself to
>himself.
That's getting there -- it gives you a goal for the end of the book. It still
isn't quite a plot, though.
OTOH, you may not *need* to have a plot before you start writing. Some writers
don't. If you are the sort of writer for whom having a plot gets in the way,
you probably *shouldn't* try to work it out in detail in advance.
Assuming, however, that you *do* want to work up a plot for this before you
start writing it, where you start is by looking at the elements you already
have, and building on them. Starting with a list of stuff to avoid isn't
likely to be terribly productive (unless you're the sort of "million-ideas"
writer who suffers from horrible choice paralysis, and needs to narrow down the
options before you can even begin to begin).
You seem to have a character and a setting, and a goal (Master's rank) for your
character. Given those things, the usual Most Useful Question is: Why? Why
is it going to be more difficult than usual, or more important than usual, for
your character to reach Master's rank? (If it is simply a matter of "work hard
until you get promoted," then even though you're talking wizards and not
corporate executives, it's not likely to seem terribly interesting to most of
your readers.) What is it about the wizard, or the place he is, that makes
this especially difficult? Is anyone trying to stop him, and if so, why? Was
he assigned to this city, or did he choose it himself, and in either case, why?
What is the downside of *not* reaching Master's rank, or of not reaching it
within the particular time frame?
Why is it especially difficult -- any more than usual, that is -- for this
particular wizard to get by on his own? Is he a country boy with little
experience of the city, or was his apprenticeship cut short for some reason
before he was really fully trained, or is he just shy and lacking in
confidence?
It really doesn't matter whether your particular plot twists have been used a
million times in other urban fantasy or not. What matters is what you *do*
with them -- how they fit together with the character and the setting. If you
throw in something weird and wonderful that doesn't fit, it's going to drag the
story down *in spite of* being wildly original and wonderful; if you throw out
something simply because "it's cliched" when it fits perfectly and is necessary
to the story, you'll damage the story. It's worth taking a second look at
things that have been done a lot already, of course -- often, there is some
other, less obvious and less cliched way of achieving the same end. But if the
cliche is perfect...well, then it is, that's all.
Patricia C. Wrede
Angie
news:20020121093409...@mb-fv.news.cs.com...
>
> > Dan Goodman
> >King thoroughly misused the word "tommyknocker"! The word has a real
> >meaning: They're creatures who live underground, and who are sometimes
> >friendly to miners and sometimes not. They're native to Cornwall, under
> >several names -- "knocker" being among them. ("Tommyknocker" may be
> >found only in the US.) Cornish miners brought the legend(s) to various
> >parts of the US. For example, Tommyknocker soda is bottled in Colorado.
> >
> >
> --But if they existed, they'd be natural allies to the leprechauns, and
very
> likely could help finance their legal defense (I mean, some of the
leprechaun
> family lines came over on coffin ships back the mid-1800s, so if any of
them
> bothered to apply for any of the amnesty programs, they'd be pretty hard
to
> get rid of).
I dunno, I mean you have all these nice burrows and a little way of life
going on, and then these dratted singing, mischevous little leprechauns come
over and start burrowing around frivolously and making a lot of noise and
taking life a lot less seriously than you're used to. If I was faced with
that I'd probably move. They've no respect, and should have stayed where
they belonged instead of imposing their silly lifestyle where it doesn't
belong, bringing in tourists and all. It could be a racial issue after all.
Angie :)
--
http://silver-oak.com http://silveroak.co.uk
UK Fantasy & Science Fiction Books, News and Info
Sylvia Li
>
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <bobth...@brandx.net> declared:
>
> > I think the whole idea is completely gay.
>
> What homophobic trolls think is of no interest to anyone else on this
> newsgroup.
Though, hm, you could get a rather *different* urban fantasy if the talent
for magic turned out to be tightly linked to homosexuality.
--
Sylvia Li
Jim Cannon
> deja.com says...
> > > How well do you know Seattle? And how recently?
> >
> > Not well at all. But I'm working on it.
>
> Why did you pick Seattle, rather than a setting you were more familiar
> with?
By process of elimination, really. I'd initially planned on three
cities for each of my main characters, each city designed to support
and enhance that particular character's circumstances. For example,
Boston would be the city of old money and vampires, Seattle would be
the city of wilderness and werewolves, and Honolulu would be the home
of weirdness from the sea. But then I realized if I did that, it would
take me *forever* to get the three main characters together. Since I'd
already started with the character in the Pacific Northwest, I decided
to settle there.
It is actually working out rather well, and it also gives me a
definite location for my vacation this year.
Jim Cannon
John McMullen
>
> Oh, right. I'm a minivan mom myself, so such distinctions get blurred. (In
> a Contemporary Suburban Fantasy the minivans ought to have fake wood paneling
> on the sides and have many many cupholders.)
>
Now, is the fake wood paneling to appease the elves ("We didn't cut down
your forest!") or to make them feel more alienated in the CSF vehicle?
I can imagine the dryad who lives in a real-wood-panel 1946 station wagon
claiming that the elves get really snotty about that.
And you'd need all the cupholders because the naiad's a tad large. (Don't
call her fat, but she does fill up a few litres.)
And your nature spirits might need to hang out with minivan moms, because
at least they'll go to soccer practice once or twice a week, and get some
exposure to the grass.
(On the other hand, if the fey are fleeing the urban areas, soon you won't
be able to be an adventure hiker without tripping over them in every foot
of Wilderness you encounter. Do they have jobs in Mountain Equipment Co-Op
and the like, steering people away from the enclaves of faerie?)
Didn't Stephen Vincent Benet do a fantasy story with a leprechaun coming
to the new world?
John