Re: P/F Crit (3): Bookgirl
Zeborah
> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
> wanted
>
> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
> being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
> way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
Dammit, can you at least tell us? (I mean, there's the obvious, which
may not be the same thing that's obvious for other readers, and then
there's a thousand other possibilities.)
> So does this one go into the "finish this someday" folder or should it
> be added to the "story starts that don't quite work" file?
As far as I'm concerned it hasn't started yet, so I can't tell.
Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
Brian M. Scott
wrote in <news:5he2e2pjsbku765bb...@4ax.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> Dear Diary,
> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
> wanted
> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
> being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
> way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
> So does this one go into the "finish this someday" folder or should it
> be added to the "story starts that don't quite work" file?
I agree with Zeborah: there isn't enough to tell. At the
very least it depends on the unfinished sentence. (Dunno
what Zeborah considers 'the obvious', but my first thought
was that the sentence actually did break off there.)
Brian
Gruff
What they said.
Gerry Quinn
<noreplies> says...
>
> Yellowing pages with fractured edges said the book was hundreds of
> years old, but the coarseness of the paper and crude stitching told of
> it being cheap even in its day. Uneven penmanship, that of an
> untutored hand trying its unhappy best, filled the pages. Inside the
> cover, crude sketches of cattle, haystacks, and meadows left little
> room for the many wispy and faceless self-portraits.
I would drop the 'but' in the first sentence, and make two separate
sentences, with a period or semicolon between them. The 'but' is
misplaced as the two concepts are not contradictory; it makes seemingly
irrelevant observations relating to sale values.
> The first half proved unimaginative, as the thoughts and dreams of a
> free-born farm girl raised in peaceful times too often are. Then, on a
> page speckled with blood, it read:
>
> Dear Diary,
>
> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
> wanted
>
> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
> being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
> way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
Have you an end to that sentence, even if you cannot word it
satisfactorily? If so, you may have a beginning. If not, you have a
mere fragment.
How does the reader know the markings are blood? It seems a bit
unnecessary and cliched, anyway. I'd describe the markings on the
book, then go on with the story.
'Dear Diary' seems too modern a phrase.
- Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
b.s...@csuohio.edu says...
Might be the makings of a drabble, if so...
- Gerry Quinn
Tina Hall
> Subject: P/F Crit (3): Bookgirl
Finish this some day.
[...]
> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me
> think I wanted
> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite
> not being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find
> a decent way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
Just wording, or content as well?
--
Tina
WIR: Magic Earth series, a serial in six parts.
WISuspension: Seasons & Elements trilogy, a serial in three parts.
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.
Jacey Bedford
<noreplies@?.?.invalid> writes
>I don't intend to keep working on this story right now (see: Ulterior
>Motive at bottom of post "P/F Crit: Apprentice"), but I would
>appreciate Pass/Fail comments (no detailed crits needed).
>
>
>Yellowing pages with fractured edges said the book was hundreds of
>years old, but the coarseness of the paper and crude stitching told of
>it being cheap even in its day. Uneven penmanship, that of an
>untutored hand trying its unhappy best, filled the pages. Inside the
>cover, crude sketches of cattle, haystacks, and meadows left little
>room for the many wispy and faceless self-portraits.
>
>free-born farm girl raised in peaceful times too often are. Then, on a
>page speckled with blood, it read:
>
>Dear Diary,
>
>wanted
>
>(I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
>being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
>way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
>
>be added to the "story starts that don't quite work" file?
Not enough to go on, really. It looks like it's going to be a frame
story... can't tell more than that.
Pending file.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
Bill Swears
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:55:36 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
>> what Zeborah considers 'the obvious', but my first thought
>> was that the sentence actually did break off there.)
> What they said.
OK, I don't care for the opening, but I do want to know what Zeborah
thought was "the obvious."
Bill
--
Ourdebate.com lifts free debate between writers and dilutes it with ads.
rec.arts.sf.composition is a USENET group, and can be accessed for free.
Ourdebate.com therefore sucks (the life from discourse),
and dribbles (deceit when integrity would have worked just as well).
Quaestor
>Yellowing pages with fractured edges said the book was hundreds of
>years old, but the coarseness of the paper and crude stitching told of
>it being cheap even in its day. Uneven penmanship, that of an
>untutored hand trying its unhappy best, filled the pages. Inside the
>cover, crude sketches of cattle, haystacks, and meadows left little
>room for the many wispy and faceless self-portraits.
>
>
Good imagery, but something is missing.
There is a tendancy among some to write novels as if seeing a movie or
TV show. It is tempting. I've started things that way sometimes. I've
learned to catch that, and correct it.
Novels are not TV or movies. They are not portraits, dances, or music.
They are not any other form of writing, either. They are novels.
And in novels, scenes, especially the opening scene of the book, need to
start with action, activity, something going on. An establishing shot
is good for a Hitchcock movie. It is dullsville dead-time for a novel.
This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua hua
hua hua!"), but rather, in spite of the good imagery, when I first saw
it I didn't like it, and the lack of activity, the lack of anyone doing
anything, turned out to be the reason.
The above Might be rescued by simply having some wind blow the pages
around a bit. But action that does not involve people, characters,
tends to be little more than animated scenery.
>The first half proved unimaginative, as the thoughts and dreams of a
>free-born farm girl raised in peaceful times too often are. Then, on a
>page speckled with blood, it read:
>
>
A book about a book? Somehow I would find a way to turn this "It IS"
kind of scene into action. Have someone reading the diary, or doing
something with it and having a flashback about having read it.
>Dear Diary,
>
>Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
>wanted
>
>(I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
>being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
>way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
>
>So does this one go into the "finish this someday" folder or should it
>be added to the "story starts that don't quite work" file?
>--
>
>
Stories about wizards really need style. Style usually means more and
fancier words, to give it that other-place-and-timeliness.
EG: . [date, and perhaps the time, maybe even a weather report, not
"dear diary," a modernism] The village was visited this day by one who
seemed to know many things, and some called him wizard. He looked at
me, spoke to me, in ways I found most disturbing. I know not what he
did, or even that he did anything at all, but my sense tells me it was
he, and he made a most subtle and devilish spell upon me, stiring my
thoughts and feelings, making me to believe I wanted ...
Point is, that's an example of what I mean, not direct advice on how to
write the scene.
But your complaint is not about all this, but how to end the sentence.
Well, that I can't help with, having no idea what it was she wanted.
But knowing girls, and wizards, as I do, I could GUESS! :)
--
Godwin is a net-nazi
Learn about spam: http://www.seige-perilous.org/spam/spam.html
Zeborah
> Gruff wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:55:36 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> >> very least it depends on the unfinished sentence. (Dunno
> >> what Zeborah considers 'the obvious', but my first thought
> >> was that the sentence actually did break off there.)
> > What they said.
>
> OK, I don't care for the opening, but I do want to know what Zeborah
> thought was "the obvious."
For me, "the obvious" was magic as Rohypnol. (I started to write this
in reply to Brian last night, then didn't get around to posting it, but
the word stuck in my mind sufficiently that one of my dreams about
humouring a bad teacher turned into being stalked by an utter sleeze who
wanted to spike my drink and rape me; and was halfway through the
process before the police, who I'd managed to call earlier, showed up.
Not as disturbing as it was vivid, fortunately.)
But there's so little information there that I could easily see "the
obvious" being something different for everyone. I did have a few other
thoughts too: one was that it might just stop there (though the
structure felt a little wrong for that). Another was that he'd
convinced the girl to want something that was important to him and to
get it she had to massacre her family. Or, you know, vagueness -- it
could go in thousands of directions.
Zeborah
> How does the reader know the markings are blood?
Blood is fairly distinctive. It might be chicken blood from the fowl
she's been slaughtering, but it's not going to be paint or wine or
anything.
Brian M. Scott
<no-...@my.place> wrote in
<news:12e45sa...@news.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> And in novels, scenes, especially the opening scene of the
> book, need to start with action, activity, something
> going on. An establishing shot is good for a Hitchcock
> movie. It is dullsville dead-time for a novel.
Except when it works. The first three of Cherryh's novels
that I opened just now -- _Fortress in the Eye of Time_,
_Goblin Mirror_, and _Destroyer_ -- all begin with effective
description. So, among many others, does Alma's _The
Secrets of Jin-Shei_, to take an example by a rasfc regular.
I quite like in medias res openings, but they aren't always
right; sometimes a more contemplative opening is much more
appropriate.
[...]
Brian
Alma Hromic Deckert
>Novels are not TV or movies. They are not portraits, dances, or music.
>They are not any other form of writing, either. They are novels.
>
>And in novels, scenes, especially the opening scene of the book, need to
>start with action, activity, something going on. An establishing shot
>is good for a Hitchcock movie. It is dullsville dead-time for a novel.
>This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua hua
>hua hua!"), but rather, in spite of the good imagery, when I first saw
>it I didn't like it, and the lack of activity, the lack of anyone doing
>anything, turned out to be the reason.
>
>The above Might be rescued by simply having some wind blow the pages
>around a bit. But action that does not involve people, characters,
>tends to be little more than animated scenery.
Nine and sixty ways again, okay?!
Good God, *it depends on the novel*! I've read books that start with
not just one but with MULTIPLE bangs, and they merely deafened me and
left me cold. I've also read books which start with what you call an
"establishing shot", and they were magnificent. Hell, I've even
WRITTEN both kinds, and both worked just as well, depending on the
project at hand.
Once more, for those out there in the reading/lurking bleachers, none
of this is gospel. Start YOUR novel at a place which seems to be
right. This might prove to be eminently shiftable, later, but for
heaven's sake if you FEEL like starting with describing a summer's
day, do it. if you do it well enough it will find someone out there
who relates to it and likes it. You may not have many sales to people
who buy military SF, for instance, but that doesn't mean you will not
have any sales.
>
>Stories about wizards really need style. Style usually means more and
>fancier words, to give it that other-place-and-timeliness.
Please stop pontificating! You're starting to come off as a "come and
sit at my feet and learn the One True Way" prophet. Things may or may
not work *for you* but sentences like "stories about wizards really
need style" beg more than one question - Really? They REALLY need
style? What kind of style? Who's to be the arbiter of said style?
Define a "story about wizards" - you can twist that to apply to
anything from Lord of the Rings and Earthsea to Jonathan Strange and
Mr Norrell, and they are all very different books.
>But your complaint is not about all this, but how to end the sentence.
>Well, that I can't help with, having no idea what it was she wanted.
>But knowing girls, and wizards, as I do, I could GUESS! :)
ANd how many wizards do you know...? <G>
A.
Tina Hall
> Wildepad wrote:
>> Yellowing pages with fractured edges said the book was hundreds
>> of years old, but the coarseness of the paper and crude
>> stitching told of it being cheap even in its day. Uneven
>> penmanship, that of an untutored hand trying its unhappy best,
>> filled the pages. Inside the cover, crude sketches of cattle,
>> haystacks, and meadows left little room for the many wispy and
>> faceless self-portraits.
> Good imagery, but something is missing.
> There is a tendancy among some to write novels as if seeing a
> movie or TV show. It is tempting. I've started things that way
> sometimes. I've learned to catch that, and correct it.
That just means it doesn't work for you.
> Novels are not TV or movies. They are not portraits, dances, or
> music. They are not any other form of writing, either. They are
> novels.
Some might not be. Others have different perception than you.
Some people see the events like on an internal screen, looking through a
character's eyes, plus seeing what he feels and thinks.
> And in novels, scenes, especially the opening scene of the book,
> need to start with action, activity, something going on.
Some do. Others don't.
What makes you think your idea is the One True Way? Haven't you read the
FAQ?
> An establishing shot is good for a Hitchcock movie. It is
> dullsville dead-time for a novel.
Depends on the novel and the taste of the reader. There are a great many
_published_ books by well known writers that start out dead boring from
my point of view, but are greatly appreciated by many other people.
Besides, the OP wants to know whether the idea is worth continuing some
day. The style here is one that some people like, my personal opinion on
that doesn't matter. (I'm likely the most picky person on the planet,
which isn't helpful; people aren't writing books for me alone. So I look
at it as objective as I can.)
> This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua
> hua hua hua!"),
That's what you do. You make statements. If that's not what you intend
to do, change your tone.
> but rather, in spite of the good imagery, when I first saw it I
> didn't like it, and the lack of activity, the lack of anyone
> doing anything, turned out to be the reason.
Well, then say that you don't like it and why. Don't state "This is
wrong, you must do it that way, because it's proven by me saying so."
> The above Might be rescued by simply having some wind blow the
> pages around a bit.
That's your biased opinion. Mine is that would bore me no end; it's
still nothing happening.
Neither of which is helpful, just trying to push your opinion.
As the scene is, we get to see the pages, then what's on them. Of course
there are ways to change it. The reader could be described, or how she
found the book, why she is reading it, what her grandmother ate for
breakfast last sunday. But after setting the situation that someone is
reading it, it gets right to the point, mentioning that it doesn't start
out particularly interesting, it cuts to the meat.
The reader (including the surroundings, the lighting, whether there's
wind) might or might not turn out important to the story, I don't know,
but I trust that the OP will get to that in the right time.
> But action that does not involve people, characters, tends to be
> little more than animated scenery.
I don't consider anything not involving characters as 'something
(interesting) happening'. Even a 20m flood-wave crashing down on a
seaside town would bore me.
But that's just my own opinion, I know that others would see that
differently, so I don't demand that all 20m flood-waves be extracted
from all stories.
>> The first half proved unimaginative, as the thoughts and dreams
>> of a free-born farm girl raised in peaceful times too often are.
>> Then, on a page speckled with blood, it read:
> A book about a book? Somehow I would find a way to turn this "It
> IS" kind of scene into action. Have someone reading the diary,
> or doing something with it and having a flashback about having
> read it.
Eh, I think that's what is happening; someone is reading the diary.
>> Dear Diary,
>>
>> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me
>> think I wanted
>>
>> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while
>> despite not being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and
>> can't find a decent way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
>>
>> So does this one go into the "finish this someday" folder or
>> should it be added to the "story starts that don't quite work"
>> file? --
> Stories about wizards really need style.
Says who?
If a bunch of mucky toads is called wizards for whatever reason on the
invented world they live, then it's up to the author to explain why. It
isn't outright wrong to call them wizards.
> EG: . [date, and perhaps the time, maybe even a weather report,
> not "dear diary," a modernism]
You don't know whether your suggestion wouldn't be completely out of
place and character in _this_ story.
> The village was visited this day by one who seemed to know many
> things, and some called him wizard. He looked at me, spoke to me, in
> ways I found most disturbing. [...]
I'd rather read Wildepad's version. This bores me.
> Point is, that's an example of what I mean, not direct advice on
> how to write the scene.
You claim that 'wizards need style', that there is no other way to talk
about them.
Wonder what you'd say to my 'lukewarm wizards'. <g>
Mary K. Kuhner
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>The first three of Cherryh's novels
>that I opened just now -- _Fortress in the Eye of Time_,
>_Goblin Mirror_, and _Destroyer_ -- all begin with effective
>description. So, among many others, does Alma's _The
>Secrets of Jin-Shei_, to take an example by a rasfc regular.
I've been thinking lately that it's not that descriptive
openings don't work, it's that many writers handle them
poorly. They've had lots of practice doing dialog and
action, but their descriptive-passage skills are stuck in
the high school essay mode, and it *is* boring to read.
If people weren't willing to read long passages of
description, _The Perfect Storm_ and _The Omnivore's Dilemma_
and _The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat_ wouldn't sell
as well as they do--those books are mostly description, and
they are engaging from cover to cover. But it's *really
good* description.
One thing I've seen in reading a lot of unpublished novel
openings lately (Evil Editor's blog is doing a couple a day)
is that you don't want to describe something in a boring
way in the opening just because the reader will need it later.
The description has to have payoff in itself--could be
creating a sense of mystery, or a vivid mental image, or
a strong emotion, or whatever, but not just "Trust me, you'll
need to know the principle exports of Tau Ceti later, and
besides, there's a quiz...."
More generally, "I need you to know this" is not enough;
for an opening to work, I think it really helps if the
author works out "Here's why this is interesting." I personally
love eerie descriptions; I'm happy to read several pages of
pure description if they make the hair stand up on the back
of my neck. The opening of "The Haunting of Hill House" is
killer.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Tina Hall
> Gerry Quinn <ger...@DELETETHISindigo.ie> wrote:
>> How does the reader know the markings are blood?
> Blood is fairly distinctive. It might be chicken blood from the
> fowl she's been slaughtering, but it's not going to be paint or
> wine or anything.
It could be chocolate. <g>
Quaestor
>>This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua
>>hua hua hua!"),
>>
>>
>
>That's what you do. You make statements. If that's not what you intend
>to do, change your tone.
>
>
Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there.
Quaestor
>On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:51:09 -0700, Quaestor <no-...@my.place> wrote:
>
>I take it from your comments that the opening didn't work at all for
>you, so: fail.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
I think I'm going to stop responding to p/f threads since I consider
almost any writing someone has the nerve to put up here as a
"Possible." You had good imagery and such, but the exact treatment did
not do it for me.
I guess I'm too busy being helpful to be of any help? :-\
SAMK
> I don't intend to keep working on this story right now (see: Ulterior
> Motive at bottom of post "P/F Crit: Apprentice"), but I would
> appreciate Pass/Fail comments (no detailed crits needed).
>
Didn't work for me.
SAMK
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>>> This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say!
>>> Hua hua hua hua hua!"),
>>
>> That's what you do. You make statements. If that's not what you
>> intend to do, change your tone.
> Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there.
Perhaps you are just not seeing it.
I hate the old "If everyone disagrees with you, it isn't them that are
wrong.", because, well, usually, the more people agree on something, the
more likely it is to be wrong (mob and group-think lead to a lot of
opinionless people running with the masses, and with conviction), but
you _are_ saying things as if there were no other option.
You wrote: "And in novels, scenes, especially the opening scene of the
book, need to start with action, activity, something going on."
No qualifications. Just a "In novels, scenes ... need to ...".
Now, my personal, never humble, opinion is that every story (no less
than 200k words, better thrice that) should start with an interesting
character doing something that interests me. Tight third, and you better
put in at least 10 different viewpoints. And write about something big,
but concentrate on the individuals...
Er, published books prove that that is not the only way to write a story
and sell it, too. There are books that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot
pole, but a big enough number of people like them. (Cherryh comes to
mind. She focusses, to me, on all the wrong things, with nothing that
interests me anywhere in sight. Zero, nada, nix.)
So, your opinion is fine, just remember that other people don't
necessarily agree, and were successful with their method. You can just
tag your opinion as that more often, rather than stating it as if it
were the one and only way do do things. The way you say it is all I'm
objecting to.
nyra
>
> EG: . [date, and perhaps the time, maybe even a weather report, not
> "dear diary," a modernism] The village was visited this day by one who
> seemed to know many things, and some called him wizard. He looked at
> me, spoke to me, in ways I found most disturbing. I know not what he
> did, or even that he did anything at all, but my sense tells me it was
> he, and he made a most subtle and devilish spell upon me, stiring my
> thoughts and feelings, making me to believe I wanted ...
Now _this_ would suggest to me that the wizard took over the country
girl's body (and apparently suffered partial amnesia to actually think
he's her). There might even be a story to it, but that wouldn't be
mine to write.
--
Se on Jumalan sana, sanoi mies,
kun akkansa raamatulla löi.
Logan Kearsley
news:ebtd51$pbk$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu...
>
> One thing I've seen in reading a lot of unpublished novel
> openings lately (Evil Editor's blog is doing a couple a day)
> is that you don't want to describe something in a boring
> way in the opening just because the reader will need it later.
> The description has to have payoff in itself--could be
> creating a sense of mystery, or a vivid mental image, or
> a strong emotion, or whatever, but not just "Trust me, you'll
> need to know the principle exports of Tau Ceti later, and
> besides, there's a quiz...."
I am *so* stealing that line.
It seems like a good one from which to play humor, but there are other
possibilities....
-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.
Bill Swears
> For me, "the obvious" was magic as Rohypnol. (I started to write this
> in reply to Brian last night, then didn't get around to posting it, but
> the word stuck in my mind sufficiently that one of my dreams about
> humouring a bad teacher turned into being stalked by an utter sleeze who
> wanted to spike my drink and rape me; and was halfway through the
> process before the police, who I'd managed to call earlier, showed up.
> Not as disturbing as it was vivid, fortunately.)
Ok, I had to go look up Rohypnol to find out what you were talking
about, but it's clear enough now. I really hadn't gone down that track
at all.
But now it seems likely that it was what was being driven towards.
Daniel R. Reitman
mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
>. . . .
>If people weren't willing to read long passages of
>description, _The Perfect Storm_ and _The Omnivore's Dilemma_
>and _The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat_ wouldn't sell
>as well as they do--those books are mostly description, and
>they are engaging from cover to cover. But it's *really
>good* description.
>. . . .
Jules Feiffer (oh bleep, sp?) once said that his first novel was
criticized for too little description, and his second for spending too
much time describing the snow.
Dan, ad nauseam
Zeborah
> One thing I've seen in reading a lot of unpublished novel
> openings lately (Evil Editor's blog is doing a couple a day)
> is that you don't want to describe something in a boring
> way in the opening just because the reader will need it later.
> The description has to have payoff in itself--could be
> creating a sense of mystery, or a vivid mental image, or
> a strong emotion, or whatever, but not just "Trust me, you'll
> need to know the principle exports of Tau Ceti later, and
> besides, there's a quiz...."
I've been thinking my WIP might need to open with a zoom-in description
of Copenhagen Castle, the Blue Tower, and the man working in the Black
Chamber. --Which aside from point of view issues (such a description
would probably be rather omni, and for most of the book he's rather
tight third) scares me batty because I'm no good at description *and*
the place used to exist *and* I only have a couple of small pictures of
it from the seventeenth century after Christian IV(1), curse him, added
a spire to said Blue Tower so I can't figure out exactly what it looked
like before.
> More generally, "I need you to know this" is not enough;
> for an opening to work, I think it really helps if the
> author works out "Here's why this is interesting." I personally
> love eerie descriptions; I'm happy to read several pages of
> pure description if they make the hair stand up on the back
> of my neck. The opening of "The Haunting of Hill House" is
> killer.
If I could get the description of the castle right, it'd probably be
eerie, or chilling, or at least some kind of awe-inspiring. --Certainly
I hope I've managed that in some other places where I have described
things. I'm rather proud of my Hamar cathedral crypt scene in which I
had two characters stand there employing their surroundings as
reinforcements in a battle of minds.
Also, my objects of power just mutually annihilated each other, and I'm
feeling rather bouncy. Only three more chapters to go.
Zeborah
(1) Every historic building in Copenhagen? Built in the time of
Christian IV.
Chris Dollin
> Tina Hall wrote:
>
>>>This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua
>>>hua hua hua!"),
>>>
>>
>>That's what you do. You make statements. If that's not what you intend
>>to do, change your tone.
>>
> Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there.
Why do you think it isn't there?
--
Empirical Hedgehog
Notmuchhere: http://www.electric-hedgehog.net/
Otherface: Jena RDF/Owl toolkit http://jena.sourceforge.net/
Cyli
>On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:35:36 +1200, zeb...@gmail.com (Zeborah) wrote:
>
>>Bill Swears <wsw...@gci.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Gruff wrote:
>>> > On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:55:36 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
>>> >> very least it depends on the unfinished sentence. (Dunno
>>> >> what Zeborah considers 'the obvious', but my first thought
>>> >> was that the sentence actually did break off there.)
>>> > What they said.
>>>
>>> OK, I don't care for the opening, but I do want to know what Zeborah
>>> thought was "the obvious."
>>
>>For me, "the obvious" was magic as Rohypnol.
>
>Oh, sex.
>
>I don't think he would bother casting a spell for that.
Those were my first and second thoughts. Then it went to apprentice /
familiar / wife / concubine (where latter are legal) / housekeeper
(unlikely)/ biographer and I got so lost in the maze of possibilities
that I dropped the whole thought.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
Brian M. Scott
<e...@electric-hedgehog.net> wrote in
<news:3GyEg.50320$Ca.4...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Quaestor wrote:
[...]
>> Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there.
> Why do you think it isn't there?
> --
> Empirical Hedgehog
What, not 'Deja Vu All Over Again Hedgehog'?
Brian
Quaestor
Hmmmmmmmm. I didn't think of it that way, but that could be what it says.
That was purely an example, to make my point about style. And while the
exact words may be mine, the ideas are as generic as salt shakers. If
this gets you started on something, go with it. :)
Quaestor
>On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:01:49 -0700, Quaestor <no-...@my.place> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I consider
>>almost any writing someone has the nerve to put up here as a
>>"Possible."
>>
>>
>
>Then either you have more tolerance than I do or you haven't been
>around long enough. :)
>
>
I have been around writers' groups of various kinds since before
moveable type (well, in my house, at least).
>>You had good imagery and such, but the exact treatment did
>>not do it for me.
>>
>>
>
>Then it would be helpful to me if you simply said: "it didn't work for
>me. As P/F, it's a fail".
>
>
I get distracted by the writing, and start trying to help. Sorry.
>No one expects anyone to read or comment on everything posted, so you
>have to decide for yourself whether to read any more of my posts,
>comment on any, or killfile me. No one will think more or less of you
>no matter what road you choose.
>
I give all such a quick glance, and may come back later. Notice the
deafening lack of my answers to many others? When you got something
that looks worth working on, eventualyl I will get to working on it.
Sorry about the p/f. But at the same time, look at all the flaming I
got for an encouraging suggestion in another thread, just because it
wasn't encouraging Enough!
Quaestor
>Jules Feiffer (oh bleep, sp?) once said that his first novel was
>criticized for too little description, and his second for spending too
>much time describing the snow.
>
>
The one thing you can be certain of with everything you write: it WILL
piss off someone, and usually the same ones.
Quaestor
>Quaestor wrote:
>
>
>
>>Tina Hall wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>This is Not about applying a rule ("you Must write as I say! Hua hua
>>>>hua hua hua!"),
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>That's what you do. You make statements. If that's not what you intend
>>>to do, change your tone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there.
>>
>>
>
>Why do you think it isn't there?
>
Why do you think it is?
Here is a test. What is wrong with the line between the *----"?
----
----
Gerry Quinn
zeb...@gmail.com says...
> Gerry Quinn <ger...@DELETETHISindigo.ie> wrote:
>
> > How does the reader know the markings are blood?
>
> Blood is fairly distinctive. It might be chicken blood from the fowl
> she's been slaughtering, but it's not going to be paint or wine or
> anything.
I assumed it was quite old, though. Maybe not, if this is a magic
book.
- Gerry Quinn
Aqua
> (1) Every historic building in Copenhagen? Built in the time of
> Christian IV.
And Oslo.
Aqua
nyra
Not without reason the town was named Christiania after they rebuilt
it in 1624 ...
Chris Dollin
Shh. Open that Deja News and we'll suffer the /discussion/
all over again.
--
Recursion: See Recursion Hedgehog
Chris Dollin
> Chris Dollin wrote:
>
>>Quaestor wrote:
>>
>>>Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there
>>
>>Why do you think it isn't there?
>
> Why do you think it is?
I can read, and that's the tone that comes over: "my view is
the right one".
Why do you think the tone isn't there?
> Here is a test. What is wrong with the line between the *----"?
>
> ----
>
> ----
Reference failure: there are no such lines in your post.
--
sed Hedgehog
Kat R
> Jules Feiffer (oh bleep, sp?)
That's right, however odd it looks.
--
Kat Richardson
Greywalker, coming from Roc, October 3, 2006
http://www.katrichardson.com/
Bob Throllop
Wildepad wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:41:07 +1200, zeb...@gmail.com (Zeborah) wrote:
>
> >Wildepad <noreplies> wrote:
> >
> >> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
> >> wanted
> >>
> >> (I can only hope the idea will leave me alone for a while despite not
> >> being fully purged -- I tried for over an hour and can't find a decent
> >> way of wording the rest of that sentence.)
> >
> >Dammit, can you at least tell us? (I mean, there's the obvious, which
> >may not be the same thing that's obvious for other readers, and then
> >there's a thousand other possibilities.)
>
> If it's obvious, why do I have to say?
It's obvious to me that the book leaves off right there.
Quaestor
>Quaestor wrote:
>
>
>
>>Chris Dollin wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Quaestor wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Clearly a lot of readers are seeing "tone" that is not there
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Why do you think it isn't there?
>>>
>>>
>>Why do you think it is?
>>
>>
>
>I can read, and that's the tone that comes over: "my view is
>the right one".
>
>Why do you think the tone isn't there?
>
>
I didn't put it there. It isn't there. I cannot help it if you choose
to see what isn't there.
>>Here is a test. What is wrong with the line between the *----"?
>>
>>----
>>
>>----
>>
>>
>
>Reference failure: there are no such lines in your post.
>
Then how did you manage to quote them here?
Q: What is wrong with the tone of the blank line between the "----"?
Hint: If you find something wrong with that, you have something far more
wrong with you than just loving to pile on and argue.
Brian M. Scott
<no-...@my.place> wrote in
<news:12e80m8...@news.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Chris Dollin wrote:
[...]
>>Why do you think the tone isn't there?
> I didn't put it there.
You didn't *deliberately* put it there. But it clearly is
there for many readers, and the words, and hence at least
some of the responsibility, are yours.
> It isn't there. I cannot help it if you choose to see
> what isn't there.
Then you probably could stand to practise the writerly skill
of conveying the tone that you intend to convey, since
others manage rather better.
[...]
Brian
David Friedman
Quaestor <no-...@my.place> wrote:
> Stories about wizards really need style. Style usually means more and
> fancier words, to give it that other-place-and-timeliness.
>
> EG: . [date, and perhaps the time, maybe even a weather report, not
> "dear diary," a modernism] The village was visited this day by one who
> seemed to know many things, and some called him wizard. He looked at
> me, spoke to me, in ways I found most disturbing. I know not what he
> did, or even that he did anything at all, but my sense tells me it was
> he, and he made a most subtle and devilish spell upon me, stiring my
> thoughts and feelings, making me to believe I wanted ...
First I read the example, I think in someone's reply to you. My reaction
was that the style felt bogus to me--EFP. Then I picked up the "style
usually means ..." bit of your post in another response to it.
And concluded that my reaction to the example supported my, equally
negative, reaction to the dictum.
Style might mean more and fancier words. It might mean fewer and plainer
words. One of my favorite bits in the Wizard of Earthsea trilogy starts
(by memory) "Out of the West a dragon came flying." As best I recall,
the whole passage--three or four sentences--contains no fancy words at
all. But it is written in a very effective style that fits the book and
its world.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
David Friedman
mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> More generally, "I need you to know this" is not enough;
> for an opening to work, I think it really helps if the
> author works out "Here's why this is interesting."
Apropos of your comments on interesting non-fiction, the same rule
applies there. When I rewrote my price theory text as a book on
economics for the intelligent layman, it occurred to me that, since it
wasn't a textbook, nobody would be forced to read it--and the readers
would stop at any point when the book no longer interested them. So I
made a serious effort to start every chapter with a hook of some sort, a
point or a puzzle that would interest the reader enough so he would want
to keep reading.
Quaestor
>Style might mean more and fancier words. It might mean fewer and plainer
>words. One of my favorite bits in the Wizard of Earthsea trilogy starts
>(by memory) "Out of the West a dragon came flying." As best I recall,
>the whole passage--three or four sentences--contains no fancy words at
>all. But it is written in a very effective style that fits the book and
>its world.
>
Style is style. It is not dictated by a specific style. Style is a
restricted set of all the possibilities. EG: You could write something
conceivably readable using letters of many different forms, sizes,
colors, etc, but here we are displaying our posts in a single font, for
ease of reading. That is one example of style. Style is a rule of
presentation, giving us a specified canvas with which to work (or a set
group of colors and shapes to put on a canvas).
Maybe it's time for ...
A Definition of Art
Anyone care to take a crack at that? Don't read farther till you have
taken your best shot. I'll wait.
...
Back? Good. I'll read yours later.
One day, as a footmessenger in San Francisco (even us future big-league
writers need to pay the rent!) I found myself walking by one of those
"art galleries" one day, and I realized I was standing there looking at
a "sculpture" which consisted of a step-ladder, a bucket, a paint
roller, a chest mannequin with a white tux on it, which the paint roller
had been drug across once, leaving a trail of housepaint. What utter
nonsense, just the kind of thing often parodied in movies as "art" that
no one would agree was art except the artist or the eccentric who bought it.
Yet there I was, standing, staring, and damn if there wasn't something
attracting me to it, telling me, this IS art, somehow.
I spent the rest of the day pondering, just what IS art?
A lot of people have come up with half the recipe, in my estimation (and
most have then agreed with mine).
Many say, art is expression. Well, setting off a bomb in a crowded
school may be expression.
Many say are is style. But (see the definition of style above), the
bars in a jail cell could be called style (all parallel, same size, all
steel).
My definition of art: Expression with style.
You could try stylized expression, but that actually means something
slightly different.
Expression conveys emotion, feeling, ideas beyond the mere snapshot.
Style is a limited palate with which we present that expression.
Do you ever compare photographs and their painted, sketched, or
otherwise made up versions? Usually, for some reason, the made up
version seems more attractive, more interesting. Is that only because
we're interested to see if they bothered to capture every detail?
Sometimes. But there is something more. Why else would the rather
simplistic nudes by Picaso be more attractive to some than the
photo-real nudes by an earlier painter?
Art requires expression (conveying emotion, feeling), but is too chaotic
to do so effectively without style, a limit on the elements we can use
to express it. This is why a "blue" painting is often far more
expressive than the same sort of thing in full color.
When I say something needs style, obviously I'm not dictating the style,
just saying it needs Something, and most wizard tales need a certain
something (we expect that, anyway). I then pointed out A style which
traditionally works with "wizard" stories. It's not the only one. (EG:
"I, your wizard, am about to undertake a hazardus, and frankly
unexplainable journey, into the far stratosphere, and return to the land
of E pluribus unum, to confir, consort, and otherwise hobnob, with my
fellow wizards!") Of course, for all I know, that story would have
worked out to be something like Shadowrun (techno-wizards, post-apoc
Seattle), in which case a style depicting the norms of such environment
would be the thing (eg: "A Clockwork Orange").
Brian M. Scott
<no-...@my.place> wrote in
<news:12ed3c8...@news.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> Style is a limited palate [...]
Style is bad taste?!
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<no-...@my.place> wrote in
<news:12ed3c8...@news.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> David Friedman wrote:
>> Style might mean more and fancier words. It might mean
>> fewer and plainer words. One of my favorite bits in the
>> Wizard of Earthsea trilogy starts (by memory) "Out of
>> the West a dragon came flying." As best I recall, the
>> whole passage--three or four sentences--contains no
>> fancy words at all. But it is written in a very
>> effective style that fits the book and its world.
> Style is style. It is not dictated by a specific style. Style is a
> restricted set of all the possibilities. EG: You could write something
> conceivably readable using letters of many different forms, sizes,
> colors, etc, but here we are displaying our posts in a single font, for
> ease of reading. That is one example of style. Style is a rule of
> presentation, giving us a specified canvas with which to work (or a set
> group of colors and shapes to put on a canvas).
[...]
> When I say something needs style, obviously I'm not
> dictating the style, just saying it needs Something, and
> most wizard tales need a certain something (we expect
> that, anyway).
Wizards?
> I then pointed out A style which traditionally works with
> "wizard" stories.
Does it? In my experience that mock-archaic style is mostly
found in EFP. It's also rarely done very well. (There are,
to be sure, exceptions.)
[...]
Brian
Mauro
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:1w5zd1pb1fto2$.hrii0k4330q8$.dlg@40tude.net...
Playing devil's advocate here for a moment...
Style as a limited palate is an interesting idea. One of my best friends is
a very talented composer. He writes very modern-sounding music, very old
sounding music, and pretty much everything in between. He says that the
more things he doesn't allow himself to do in a given composition, the more
free he feels to write. The limits he places guide the direction of the
piece he's writing, that is, the style he chooses points the direction for
the rest of the piece, but he says that choosing a particular style or a
particular set of boundaries for his piece also free him to make better
artistic choices.
--
Mauro Diotallevi
"Hey, Harry, you haven't done anything useful for a while -- you be the god
of jello now." -- Patricia Wrede, 8/16/2006 on rasfc
Brian M. Scott
<Spam...@spamblock.com> wrote in
<news:uB2Gg.18868$eL2....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> news:1w5zd1pb1fto2$.hrii0k4330q8$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:03:35 -0700, Quaestor
>> <no-...@my.place> wrote in
>> <news:12ed3c8...@news.supernews.com> in
>> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>> [...]
>>> Style is a limited palate [...]
>> Style is bad taste?!
> Playing devil's advocate here for a moment...
> Style as a limited palate is an interesting idea.
I think that you missed the point: <palate> != <palette>.
[...]
Brian
Mauro
"Mauro" <Spam...@spamblock.com> wrote in message
news:uB2Gg.18868$eL2....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> particular set of boundaries for his piece also free him to make better
> artistic choices.
That should say "also frees him" of course.
Joann Zimmerman
<noreplies> says...
> I don't intend to keep working on this story right now (see: Ulterior
> Motive at bottom of post "P/F Crit: Apprentice"), but I would
> appreciate Pass/Fail comments (no detailed crits needed).
>
>
> Yellowing pages with fractured edges said the book was hundreds of
> years old, but the coarseness of the paper and crude stitching told of
> it being cheap even in its day. Uneven penmanship, that of an
> untutored hand trying its unhappy best, filled the pages. Inside the
> cover, crude sketches of cattle, haystacks, and meadows left little
> room for the many wispy and faceless self-portraits.
>
> The first half proved unimaginative, as the thoughts and dreams of a
> free-born farm girl raised in peaceful times too often are. Then, on a
> page speckled with blood, it read:
>
> Dear Diary,
>
> Today a wizard came to the village. He used a spell to make me think I
> wanted
(Coming in *way* late--)
I'm interested, but I damn near bounced out when confronted w/ the
concept of "faceless self-portraits".
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Joann Zimmerman
<noreplies> says...
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:27:17 -0500, Joann Zimmerman
> <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> >I'm interested, but I damn near bounced out when confronted w/ the
> >concept of "faceless self-portraits".
>
> their hair, shoulders, etc., but the face is a total blank.
I've seen it, but I would be no more inclined to believe that it was a
self-portrait than that it was a picture of my (non-existent in real
life) sister, or a fashion sketch (as a 10-year-old, I did any number of
Millie-the-Model type sketches of fashion designs for the 24 1/2
century) or of a fairy woman who visited me in dreams.
I did a self-portrait once. It was not notable for a blanked-out face,
although much of it *was* obscured by blue-rimmed harlequin glasses.
With a blanked-out face, it could be *any*one.