Questions of humanity
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
would it be?
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
David Friedman
ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
Human as opposed to what--A.I.? Another intelligent species? Another
intelligent species sufficiently different from us that we don't want to
include them under the same label?
Neil Barnes
news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> what would it be?
>
"If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
what would it be?"
Neil
--
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is a similar account at ntlworld-fullstop-com.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>
> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> > what would it be?
> >
>
> "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> what would it be?"
You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate writer with
a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
too.
:-)
Dan Goodman
> Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
>> news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>>
>> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>> > what would it be?
>> >
>>
>> "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>> what would it be?"
>
> You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate writer with
> a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
> too.
>:-)
>
"Do humans exist?"
"What species is the most highly evolved?"
"Can you prove you're human?"
"Can you prove you aren't human?"
--
Dan Goodman dsg...@visi.com
Journal: http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> news:1fy9ktp.11pogzu19q5efdN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>
> > Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> >> news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
> >>
> >> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> >> > what would it be?
> >> >
> >>
> >> "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> >> what would it be?"
> >
> > You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate writer with
> > a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
> > too.
> >:-)
> >
> "Do humans exist?"
> "What species is the most highly evolved?"
> "Can you prove you're human?"
> "Can you prove you aren't human?"
Ok, I'll try to explain my idea better than this.
The protagonist of my story is a refugee trying to come back to Earth.
But he's facing some difficulties and he's been asked to sit a test to
prove he's human. The problem is, most questions seems completely random
and do not have clear answer, or seem impossible (to him) to answer. For
example, the first is: You are in a room with a desperately crying
child. How do you shut it up? Where there seems to be no room for trying
to find out why the child is crying or doing something about it. Another
question is "What do you have in your pockets?" and he is extremely
puzzled by that.
The fact is, I want the questions _both_ to be completely unanswerable
_and_ be genuine questions about humanity. A human can be a human even
with empty pockets, maybe even more so. And may well be score points for
humanity by asking why a child is crying instead of simply trying to
make the sound go away (where the wrong answer would be, I guess, just
kill the annoying creature).
I've got "What is your definition of humanity" to what the genuinely
human question is "compared to what?"
At the start I had completely random questions in mind, like "How many
stripes has a beach ball?" but I'm trying for something more ambitious.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> or, a completely different approach...
>
> "When's the last time you had your servos checked?"
Yes, that's a good one.
Kathrin Paschen
(I'm sorry, but Google wouldn't let me post this as a followup.)
> Ok, I'll try to explain my idea better than this.
> The protagonist of my story is a refugee trying to come back to Earth.
> But he's facing some difficulties and he's been asked to sit a test to
> prove he's human. The problem is, most questions seems completely random
> and do not have clear answer, or seem impossible (to him) to answer. For
> example, the first is: You are in a room with a desperately crying
> child. How do you shut it up? Where there seems to be no room for trying
> to find out why the child is crying or doing something about it. Another
> question is "What do you have in your pockets?" and he is extremely
> puzzled by that.
This sounds a bit like the android/human tests in _Do Androids Dream
of Electric Sheep_. But is the human's reaction uniquely human?
How about 'What did you dream last night'? It might well be
impossible to answer if your protagonist doesn't remember his
dreams. Or 'Tell me a joke' (Ok, it's not a question. Still, I'd
think humour might not be unique to humans, but the kind of humour
that you need to understand a human joke might be).
On a different note, can't they do a DNA analysis? Do your non-human
species have DNA? Even if they do, it might be possible to tell
that a piece of DNA must of non-Earth origin.
> At the start I had completely random questions in mind, like "How many
> stripes has a beach ball?" but I'm trying for something more ambitious.
Wouldn't that sort of question classify vast numbers of today's humans
as non-human? Like me, for example. I never suspected all beach balls
had the same number of stripes. Do they?
Kathrin
Graham Woodland
>
>Ok, I'll try to explain my idea better than this.
>The protagonist of my story is a refugee trying to come back to Earth.
>But he's facing some difficulties and he's been asked to sit a test to
>prove he's human. The problem is, most questions seems completely random
>and do not have clear answer, or seem impossible (to him) to answer. For
>example, the first is: You are in a room with a desperately crying
>child. How do you shut it up? Where there seems to be no room for trying
>to find out why the child is crying or doing something about it. Another
>question is "What do you have in your pockets?" and he is extremely
>puzzled by that.
>
>The fact is, I want the questions _both_ to be completely unanswerable
>_and_ be genuine questions about humanity. A human can be a human even
>with empty pockets, maybe even more so. And may well be score points for
>humanity by asking why a child is crying instead of simply trying to
>make the sound go away (where the wrong answer would be, I guess, just
>kill the annoying creature).
>
>I've got "What is your definition of humanity" to what the genuinely
>human question is "compared to what?"
>
>At the start I had completely random questions in mind, like "How many
>stripes has a beach ball?" but I'm trying for something more ambitious.
>
you string of opprobrious epithets?" If the person has some typically
human reaction to this, that's a good lot of points in their favour;
whereas if they brightly and earnestly explain that this would be
incompatible with their goals at this time, er, well...
Unlikely to be an *admitted* part of any official procedure, but still.
It does have the dramatic advantage of creating a situation where
snapping, "*%$£ off, you bigoted asshole!" at the immigration official
and attempting to storm out, is actually one *good* way of obtaining
clearance...
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
- William Goldman, _The Princess Bride_.
Brian D. Fernald
ada...@spamcop.net said...
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
Did you hear the one about ...?
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus"
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> > At the start I had completely random questions in mind, like "How many
> > stripes has a beach ball?" but I'm trying for something more ambitious.
>
> Wouldn't that sort of question classify vast numbers of today's humans
> as non-human? Like me, for example. I never suspected all beach balls
> had the same number of stripes. Do they?
That's sort of, like, the point. :-)
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Right at the end of the test: "Why don't you just bugger off back home,
> you string of opprobrious epithets?" If the person has some typically
> human reaction to this, that's a good lot of points in their favour;
> whereas if they brightly and earnestly explain that this would be
> incompatible with their goals at this time, er, well...
>
> Unlikely to be an *admitted* part of any official procedure, but still.
> It does have the dramatic advantage of creating a situation where
> snapping, "*%$Ł off, you bigoted asshole!" at the immigration official
> and attempting to storm out, is actually one *good* way of obtaining
> clearance...
BRILLIANT!!!
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> > would it be?
>
> Turing test question?
>
> "What's the least annoying thing about wearing a tie?"
Yes!
(what's the answer? each question has to resonate thematically with a
section of the story)
Jenna Thomas-McKie
> Graydon <o...@uniserve.com> wrote:
>> In <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
>> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
>> > would it be?
>> "What's the least annoying thing about wearing a tie?"
> Yes!
> (what's the answer? each question has to resonate thematically with a
> section of the story)
Dunno what a man's answer would be, but one woman's answer would be, "It
can be loosened, adjusted, even removed, in public without raising any
eyebrows, unlike underwire bras and control-top hose."
--
Jenna Thomas-McKie
jth...@aug.edu
Freedom of speech is wonderful - right up there with the freedom not to
listen.
Stuart Houghton
49476.user.dfn.cis.de:
> Oh, geez, now you want Zen questions with _answers_.
>
Actually, maybe Zen Koans would be a good set of test questions.
If the entity in question manages to successfully answer the question "Who
is the master who makes the grass green?" or "Does the cow have buddah
nature?" WITHOUT resorting to whacking you on the head with its bo staff
then it is almost certainly not human. :-)
--
Stuart Houghton
Heather Jones
> Unlikely to be an *admitted* part of any official procedure, but still.
> It does have the dramatic advantage of creating a situation where
> snapping, "*%$£ off, you bigoted asshole!" at the immigration official
> and attempting to storm out, is actually one *good* way of obtaining
> clearance...
Shades of the Frog Prince! (Not the one where she kisses him --
the one where she tosses the frog out of her bed and says, 'No, I
won't sleep with a horrid cold slimy creature like you!' and that
breaks the spell.)
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
John H
"Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1fyaa1z.rn69sdo30z2zN%ada...@spamcop.net...
> Graydon <o...@uniserve.com> wrote:
>
> > In <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> > Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
> > > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
what
> > > would it be?
> >
> > Turing test question?
> >
> > "What's the least annoying thing about wearing a tie?"
>
> Yes!
> (what's the answer? each question has to resonate thematically with a
> section of the story)
"Hides those missing buttons you haven't had time to sew back on" is
mine.
john
Christopher B. Wright
human response) when the person taking it attempts get more data in
order to answer the question with the proper context, but isn't given
that data. In your crying question, for example, a non-human response
would be to remove its larynx, a human response would be...
"Well, why is it crying?"
"Simply answer the question, please."
"I can't answer the question, I don't know why -- "
"You have thirty more seconds to answer this question..."
(with agitation) "Fine. I'd give YOU the baby and let YOU deal with
it."
:)
(On the other hand, perhaps that's more Philip K. Dick than you are
looking for...)
Christopher B. Wright (wri...@ubersoft.net)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
Edward Young
Neil Barnes
> Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
>> news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>>
>> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's
>> > human, what would it be?
>> >
>>
>> "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's
>> human, what would it be?"
>
> You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate
> writer with a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And
> strapped for time, too.
>:-)
>
<grin>
but not so daft - it's a classic Turing test type question. Put
the burden of proof on the askee.
Neil Barnes
> Graydon <o...@uniserve.com> wrote:
>
>> In <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
>> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's
>> > human, what would it be?
>>
>> Turing test question?
>>
>> "What's the least annoying thing about wearing a tie?"
>
> Yes!
> (what's the answer? each question has to resonate thematically
> with a section of the story)
>
There *are* no non-annoying things about wearing a tie, therefore
there can be no least annoying thing.
Lori Selke
Kathrin Paschen <pas...@ira.uka.de> wrote:
>How about 'What did you dream last night'? It might well be
>impossible to answer if your protagonist doesn't remember his
>dreams. Or 'Tell me a joke' (Ok, it's not a question. Still, I'd
>think humour might not be unique to humans, but the kind of humour
>that you need to understand a human joke might be).
"What's your favorite joke?"
This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
neat of you used it :)
Lori
--
se...@io.com, se...@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk
"It must be art for sure if somebody wants to destroy it."
-- Carol Emshwiller
David Tomlin
> "She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
> - William Goldman, _The Princess Bride_.
Eels.
Graham Woodland
>Graham Woodland wrote:
>
>> Unlikely to be an *admitted* part of any official procedure, but still.
>> It does have the dramatic advantage of creating a situation where
>> and attempting to storm out, is actually one *good* way of obtaining
>> clearance...
>
>Shades of the Frog Prince! (Not the one where she kisses him --
>the one where she tosses the frog out of her bed and says, 'No, I
>won't sleep with a horrid cold slimy creature like you!' and that
>breaks the spell.)
>
Graham Woodland
It varies between book and film.
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
S. Palmer
> "Do humans exist?"
> "What species is the most highly evolved?"
> "Can you prove you're human?"
> "Can you prove you aren't human?"
Darn, I'd have to answer 3 out of the 4 "no". I think I fail. )-:
-Suzanne
S. Palmer
> Or 'Tell me a joke'
Funny, I used to ask that ("Know any good jokes?") whenever I was
interviewing anyone. The theory being that if you are applying for a
position as a systems administrator, you need to be able to deal with
the unexpected even in (especially in) times of stress, and you need to
be able to think on your feet and come up with *something*, fast. It was
a surprisingly good test of a person's adaptability and response
instincts.
But then I could also argue that a lot of good sysadmins are still
barely human. And bad sysadmins...! (shudder)
-Suzanne
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <ebdf25ea.03071...@posting.google.com>,
> Kathrin Paschen <pas...@ira.uka.de> wrote:
>
> >How about 'What did you dream last night'? It might well be
> >impossible to answer if your protagonist doesn't remember his
> >dreams. Or 'Tell me a joke' (Ok, it's not a question. Still, I'd
> >think humour might not be unique to humans, but the kind of humour
> >that you need to understand a human joke might be).
>
> "What's your favorite joke?"
>
> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
> neat of you used it :)
I think I may use it, but I'm not sure what the "real" answer could be.
Unless _any_ joke is the real answer, and of course _no_ joke could get
you to pass the test, because it's completely arbitrary.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Perhaps the point of the test is to gague the level of frustration (a
> human response) when the person taking it attempts get more data in
> order to answer the question with the proper context, but isn't given
> that data. In your crying question, for example, a non-human response
> would be to remove its larynx, a human response would be...
>
> "Well, why is it crying?"
>
> "Simply answer the question, please."
>
> "I can't answer the question, I don't know why -- "
>
> "You have thirty more seconds to answer this question..."
>
> (with agitation) "Fine. I'd give YOU the baby and let YOU deal with
> it."
>
> :)
>
> (On the other hand, perhaps that's more Philip K. Dick than you are
> looking for...)
I so much like this scenario. I had thought of a written down text, but
an interview would be much nicer...
Tim S
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
"Are you human?"
Tim
Dan Goodman
$Ew...@quilpole.demon.co.uk:
> Heather Jones wrote
>>Graham Woodland wrote:
>>
>>> Unlikely to be an *admitted* part of any official procedure, but still.
>>> It does have the dramatic advantage of creating a situation where
>>> snapping, "*%$£ off, you bigoted asshole!" at the immigration official
>>> and attempting to storm out, is actually one *good* way of obtaining
>>> clearance...
>>
>>Shades of the Frog Prince! (Not the one where she kisses him --
>>the one where she tosses the frog out of her bed and says, 'No, I
>>won't sleep with a horrid cold slimy creature like you!' and that
>>breaks the spell.)
>>
> Ooh, I've never met that variant! Methinks I like it...
The oldest variant I know of is the one in which he asks her to cut off his
head, and then make frog soup.
Julie Pascal
"Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net...
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
Instead of an alien you mean?
--Julie
David J. Starr
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan wrote:
>
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
>
Tricky, very tricky. Brings to mind those WWII movies where the
Americans attempt to detect German infiltrators dressed in US uniform by
asking endless trivia questions such as "Who is Mickey Mouse's
girlfriend?"
Is there no DNA analysis available in this story?
David J. Starr
Stefan Bergström
news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net...
> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> would it be?
It may have nothing to do with what you ask for, but Asimov dealt with this
issue on a number of occassions. Particularly in his robotic novels about
Daneel R. Olivaw. And of course there's his story 'The Bicentennial Man'.
--
Stefan
---------
"It is said that a million monkeys with a million typewriters could with
time write the collected works of William Shakespear. The emergence of the
internet has proved that wrong."
-- Anonymous
To reach me: bergstro...@REMOVE-THIS.spray.se
Stefan Bergström
news:jswartzfeger-B716...@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <1fy9ktp.11pogzu19q5efdN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
> > Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> > >
> > > > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> > > > what would it be?
> > > >
> > >
> > > "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
> > > what would it be?"
> >
> > a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
> > too.
> > :-)
>
> answer?
>
> "What would you do if your spouse cheated on you?"
>
>
> or, a completely different approach...
>
> "When's the last time you had your servos checked?"
Something equivalent of the Voigt-Kampff test in Blade Runner?
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Something equivalent of the Voigt-Kampff test in Blade Runner?
That's sort of what I'm aiming at.
Oh gosh, it just occured to me that this story Has Been Done Before...
Julie Pascal
> Stefan Bergström <an...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> > Something equivalent of the Voigt-Kampff test in Blade Runner?
>
> That's sort of what I'm aiming at.
> Oh gosh, it just occured to me that this story Has Been Done Before...
So? :-)
--Julie
Julie Pascal
"Jenna Thomas-McKie" <jth...@aug.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns93BC772DD4C...@130.133.1.4...
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> news:1fyaa1z.rn69sdo30z2zN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>
> > Graydon <o...@uniserve.com> wrote:
>
> >> In <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> >> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
>
> >> > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> >> > would it be?
>
> >> "What's the least annoying thing about wearing a tie?"
>
> > Yes!
> > (what's the answer? each question has to resonate thematically with a
> > section of the story)
>
> Dunno what a man's answer would be, but one woman's answer would be, "It
> can be loosened, adjusted, even removed, in public without raising any
> eyebrows, unlike underwire bras and control-top hose."
Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
unnecessary. *Grouch*
--Julie
Laura M. Parkinson
<jswart...@cox.net> wrote:
>In article <1fy9ktp.11pogzu19q5efdN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>> Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
>> > news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>> >
>> > > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>> > > what would it be?
>> > >
>> >
>> > "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>> > what would it be?"
>>
>> You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate writer with
>> a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
>> too.
>> :-)
>
>Damn, grasping at straws here... a question to elicit an emotional
>answer?
>
>"What would you do if your spouse cheated on you?"
or... "Why did you cheat on your spouse?" ;)
Julian Flood
"David J. Starr" <dst...@theworld.com> wrote >
In a galaxy far far away called the distant past a writer produced a tale
where aliens developed spies who were genetically identical to humans.
Called something like Identification. Also relevant, a story about aliens
who claimed to be Jewish: the rabbi eventually decided that if they did all
the right things and were prepared to accept all the disadvantages then they
were.
JF
Oh, yes, Who, Budrys, no longer works.
Lori Selke
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Lori Selke <se...@io.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <ebdf25ea.03071...@posting.google.com>,
>> Kathrin Paschen <pas...@ira.uka.de> wrote:
>>
>> >How about 'What did you dream last night'? It might well be
>> >impossible to answer if your protagonist doesn't remember his
>> >dreams. Or 'Tell me a joke' (Ok, it's not a question. Still, I'd
>> >think humour might not be unique to humans, but the kind of humour
>> >that you need to understand a human joke might be).
>>
>> "What's your favorite joke?"
>>
>> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
>> neat of you used it :)
>
>I think I may use it, but I'm not sure what the "real" answer could be.
>Unless _any_ joke is the real answer, and of course _no_ joke could get
>you to pass the test, because it's completely arbitrary.
Yes, I think any joke is the real answer.
Steve Taylor
> "When's the last time you had your servos checked?"
Coffee? Tea? Ammonia?
> Jay Swartzfeger
Steve
Dan Goodman
news:bfaq1k$pc2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
>
> In a galaxy far far away called the distant past a writer produced a
> tale where aliens developed spies who were genetically identical to
> humans. Called something like Identification.
James Schmitz wrote such a story, with the addition that they thought of
themselves as humans and were more sympathetic to the Hub government than
to the one which had sent them.
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
>that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
>a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
>with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
>that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
>unnecessary. *Grouch*
>
yes and why is it that EVERY BRA OUT THERE seems to be an underwire
model, if it isn't the kind of monumental cantilevered contraption
that's severe overkill for my, um, charms? i hate the feel of
underwire. but can i find one without it? you wouldn't believe how
hard it is.
there's your question, anna. "Have you tried to buy a bra lately?" <g>
A.
Mary Gentle
(Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
Culture clash again. I'm used to seeing the section of the underwear shop
that has bras without wiring and the assistance of Isembard Kingdom Brunel
right next to the Wonderbras and others that do.
If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK, you
can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally wire-less
and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports
bra, but there you go.)
> there's your question, anna. "Have you tried to buy a bra lately?" <g>
"For whom?" would be a relevant question, too. :)
Mary
Laura M. Parkinson
Heh. Personally, I have to wonder when the hell bras got SO DAMNED
EXPENSIVE. I mean, is there *really* enough material and labor there
to cause one tiny little undergarment to cost 25-30 bucks? Or am I
just shopping in the really wrong places?
Joann Zimmerman
> Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
> that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> unnecessary. *Grouch*
Wishful thinking?
That they would hold up that which is there to be held up, or that there
was something to be held up in the first place?
(For me, underwires are a necessity and do exactly what they're there
for. Which is a Good Thing. And it turns out that sock-darning
techniques, taught me by my Victorian grandmother, work quite well on
corralling the errant plastic-covered wire ends, unless the damn thing
has broken in the middle, in which case, yes, one must brave the lingerie
dept.)
--
"I never understood people that don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
>In article <bfaeu...@enews4.newsguy.com>, ju...@pascal.org says...
>
>> Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
>> that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
>> a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
>> with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
>> that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
>> unnecessary. *Grouch*
>
>Wishful thinking?
>
>That they would hold up that which is there to be held up, or that there
>was something to be held up in the first place?
>
>(For me, underwires are a necessity and do exactly what they're there
>for. Which is a Good Thing. And it turns out that sock-darning
>techniques, taught me by my Victorian grandmother, work quite well on
>corralling the errant plastic-covered wire ends, unless the damn thing
>has broken in the middle, in which case, yes, one must brave the lingerie
>dept.)
My problem with the wire ends was that they would come out of the
plastic covering, leaving not only a bare wire (narrow metal
strip, actually) but one with *notches* in it that were supposed
to keep the plastic in place but didn't.
I'm now at work on a bust-bodice design that will not attempt to
lift the horrid objects at all, merely keep them in place and
provide a couple layers of fabric between them and the torso, to
prevent chafing.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
>If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK, you
>can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally wire-less
>and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports
>bra, but there you go.)
I tried a sports bra once. It did absolutely nothing. Its
delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was completely
inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or otherwise control two
objects weighing about a kilogram each.
I then underwent a brief fantasy about buying a really hefty,
cruelly elasticized girdle and making my own, but I'm not sure
they even make those girdles any more, I think they went out in
the 1960s.
What I could use is a time machine that would take me back to the
1920s so I could buy what they were selling then, heavy-duty
FABRIC restraints that would take the nasty things and FLATTEN
THEM OUT.
Laura M. Parkinson
>In <horihvscruf7gft3n...@4ax.com>, Laura M Parkinson
><lpark...@mindspring.com> onsendan:
>Remember that cost reliably scales with parts count, and that most bras
>have lots of parts, being pieced together fitted garments, on the one
>hand, and that women's clothing is reliably overpriced and
>under-durable, on the other.
Shouldn't that be "on the one breast... [and]... on the other"? ;)
Hrm. I see the point somewhat with the parts count, but it still just
feels ridiculous to me.
Dan Goodman
news:pqcihvg84hrqm2jui...@4ax.com:
Have you looked in sports clothes? A store which really, really sells
sports clothes to people who really, really care more about usefulness than
appearance?
Brian M. Scott
<ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
[...]
>yes and why is it that EVERY BRA OUT THERE seems to be an underwire
>model, if it isn't the kind of monumental cantilevered contraption
>that's severe overkill for my, um, charms? i hate the feel of
>underwire. but can i find one without it? you wouldn't believe how
>hard it is.
Have you tried sports bras? My ex-wife found them more
comfortable and wore them most of the time when she wasn't
dressing up.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
>"Julian Flood" <j...@floodsclimbers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
>news:bfaq1k$pc2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk:
>> In a galaxy far far away called the distant past a writer produced a
>> tale where aliens developed spies who were genetically identical to
>> humans. Called something like Identification.
>James Schmitz wrote such a story, with the addition that they thought of
>themselves as humans and were more sympathetic to the Hub government than
>to the one which had sent them.
'The Other Likeness'
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK, you
> can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally wire-less
> and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports
> bra, but there you go.)
Because even if it's not very visible, it wobbles a lot and that isn't
very good for the tissues.
Brooks Moses
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >Lori Selke <se...@io.com> wrote:
> >> "What's your favorite joke?"
> >>
> >> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
> >> neat of you used it :)
> >
> >I think I may use it, but I'm not sure what the "real" answer could be.
> >Unless _any_ joke is the real answer, and of course _no_ joke could get
> >you to pass the test, because it's completely arbitrary.
>
> Yes, I think any joke is the real answer.
The problem is that this question, as stated, makes it quite plausible
that only Myers- Briggs "J" types will pass this item on the test, and
"P" types would fail.
To elaborate: "J" types, roughly, process things in their minds by
organizing them in ordered sets; it's a worldview in which "what's your
favorite x?" is a common and simple question. "P" types, on the other
hand, don't process things that way; the relationships are different.
I'm distinctly a "P" type, and asking me to pick a favorite out of a
large set tends to send me into mental lockup such that I can't produce
meaningful responses.
My wife is a "J" type with a tendency to ask things like "So what was
your favorite thing about the conference that you went to?" as a natural
way of asking me to tell her about it, and after many years we've
finally realized that if she asks "So, tell me about the conference?
What did you like?" instead, it makes things much easier for me and I
have much more to say.
- Brooks
Tim S
'You're Jewish? Really? You don't _look_ Jewish.'
'Neither do you.'
Tim
Erol K. Bayburt
>In article <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>ada...@spamcop.net said...
>> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
>> would it be?
>
>Do you know the way to San Jose?
>Did you hear the one about ...?
Is this joke funny? [tell bad joke]
How seriously are you taking this test?
How many toes do you have?
Are you male or female?
(re the last one: Yes I know that several people in this newsgroup have
grumbled about the falsity of The Imporance of Being Either Male or Female -
but at least some of those people have admitted to being aliens.)
--
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com
Dorothy J Heydt
See my comment elsethread. If each of one's breasts weighs about
two kilos (that's EACH), if the sports bra isn't made out of
high-tension spring steel it might as well be a coat of paint.
Neil Barnes
news:hg0jhv8jnpntvhpf9...@4ax.com:
Depends where your hands are ;)
Neil
--
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is a similar account at ntlworld-fullstop-com.
Catja Pafort
> "What's your favorite joke?"
>
> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
> neat of you used it :)
It's a question that comes up frequently; and it means you only need to
memorise *one* joke, and you make a lot of people happy.
I worked that one out when I was around eight.
"For sale: Great Dane. Eats anything. Particularly likes Children."
Catja
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK,
> > you
> > can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally
> > wire-less
> > and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a
> > sports
> > bra, but there you go.)
>
> Because even if it's not very visible, it wobbles a lot and that isn't
> very good for the tissues.
When I wore an A-cup, they didn't wobble at all. But I've noticed there
are differences in -- um -- bounce-ability, even if two women are the same
cup-size. :)
Mary
Mary Gentle
wrote:
> In article <memo.2003071...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK,
> you >can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally
> wire-less >and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A
> _needs_ a sports >bra, but there you go.)
>
> I tried a sports bra once. It did absolutely nothing. Its
> delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was completely
> inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or otherwise control two
> objects weighing about a kilogram each.
It's the idea that you might have weighed them...
But then, presumably you're the market the underwire market is aimed at.
>
> I then underwent a brief fantasy about buying a really hefty,
> cruelly elasticized girdle and making my own, but I'm not sure
> they even make those girdles any more, I think they went out in
> the 1960s.
Since I can't picture what you're talking about, they may well have done.
I don't think I gave serious thought to underwear until the late 60s.
>
> What I could use is a time machine that would take me back to the
> 1920s so I could buy what they were selling then, heavy-duty
> FABRIC restraints that would take the nasty things and FLATTEN
> THEM OUT.
I know what you want -- and there must be suppliers in the US, you sharing
a re-enactment tradition and all. You want the Tudor corset.
It's made out of something almost as heavy as canvas, but that's because
you're supposed to wear it over your shift -- you'd need one lined with
something soft, if you plan to wear it next to the skin. It has
boning. But they're not the 'squeeze and can't breathe' type of Victorian
corset, they do just want you want -- flatten and keep in place.
Okay, there /are/ ways of wearing them that give you a barmaid's cleavage,
but that's not what they're for. :)
Seriously, they're wonderfully comfortable. I can't say I've ever weighed
my tits, and I doubt very much they amount to a kilo each, but ladies with
rather more of a balcony than I've got say similar corsets to
the one I wear are remarkably comfortable for running around in.
(You can sword-fight in them, too, although I admit this may not be no.1
on your priority list. :)
Mary
Mary Gentle
nailed_...@hotmail.com (Neil Barnes) wrote:
> Laura M. Parkinson <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:hg0jhv8jnpntvhpf9...@4ax.com:
>
> > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:49:13 -0400, Graydon <o...@uniserve.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Remember that cost reliably scales with parts count, and that
> >>most bras have lots of parts, being pieced together fitted
> >>garments, on the one hand, and that women's clothing is
> >>reliably overpriced and under-durable, on the other.
> >
> > Shouldn't that be "on the one breast... [and]... on the
> > other"? ;)
>
> Depends where your hands are ;)
<slap!>
Mary
and we haven't even been formally introduced
Nicola Browne
news:bfaeu...@enews4.newsguy.com
>
> > Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
> that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> unnecessary. *Grouch*
>
You know I think they could be qite an effective murder weapon
-slightly
sharpened and with a poison tip - Many's the time I've moved suddenly
to experience that 'ouch' moment.( I probably shouldn't use a tumble
dryer)
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Nicola Browne
news:HIAHI...@kithrup.com
>> >
> > See my comment elsethread. If each of one's breasts weighs about
> two kilos (that's EACH), if the sports bra isn't made out of
> high-tension spring steel it might as well be a coat of paint.
>
Wow - you could probably get several of mine to the pound ( though I
can't
think why you'd want to : ))
I'm sure you can still get larger bras here without underwiring - I'll
have a look next time I'm in town maybe they do mail order.
( No puns please)
SAMK
> I tried a sports bra once. It did absolutely nothing. Its
> delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was completely
> inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or otherwise control two
> objects weighing about a kilogram each.
The trick is to find a sports bra actually made for someone
with a cup larger than C. While I suspect I am slightly
smaller than you in that regard, I find them quite comfortable,
and extremely useful for those days when my arms will not reach
around my back. Come to think of it, I was doing some running
and a lot of martial arts forms in mine this morning, and it was
providing decent support. Which means I wasn't suffering from
extreme bounce.
>
> I then underwent a brief fantasy about buying a really hefty,
> cruelly elasticized girdle and making my own, but I'm not sure
> they even make those girdles any more, I think they went out in
> the 1960s.
>
> What I could use is a time machine that would take me back to the
> 1920s so I could buy what they were selling then, heavy-duty
> FABRIC restraints that would take the nasty things and FLATTEN
> THEM OUT.
Junonia (and Lane Bryant, too, I think) has a really hefty support
sports bra which hooks in front. Made for big sizes, too. I can
do jumping jacks in that one. Look for "max support" in Junonias
bra section. It's not quite that thick rubberized fabric of old
girdles, but it has about that much support.
SAMK
Marilee J. Layman
<lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:44:20 -0700, Jay Swartzfeger
><jswart...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <1fy9ktp.11pogzu19q5efdN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>>
>>> Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
>>> > news:1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>>> >
>>> > > If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>>> > > what would it be?
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > "If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human,
>>> > what would it be?"
>>>
>>> You naughty boy. Is this the help you give a poor desperate writer with
>>> a bright idea and no clue how to implement it? And strapped for time,
>>> too.
>>> :-)
>>
>>Damn, grasping at straws here... a question to elicit an emotional
>>answer?
>>
>>"What would you do if your spouse cheated on you?"
>
>or... "Why did you cheat on your spouse?" ;)
When did you stop beating your wife?
(I asked at the library group today, and nobody had any ideas.)
--
Marilee J. Layman
Handmade Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Marilee J. Layman
<ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
Have a look here: http://www.decentexposures.com
>there's your question, anna. "Have you tried to buy a bra lately?" <g>
>
>A.
--
Dorothy J Heydt
Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <HIA6n...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>>
>> delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was completely
>> inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or otherwise control two
>> objects weighing about a kilogram each.
>
>It's the idea that you might have weighed them...
Well, in fact, I didn't. I looked at them and said, "If that
were a loosely-wrapped pile of hamburger, how much would it
weigh?" Hamburger used to be sold in little solidly-filled
one-pound packages. Two pounds is as close to a kilo as makes no
difference for my purposes.
>
>But then, presumably you're the market the underwire market is aimed at.
Not so long as they last a month before the underwires break, I'm
not.
>>
>> I then underwent a brief fantasy about buying a really hefty,
>> cruelly elasticized girdle and making my own, but I'm not sure
>> they even make those girdles any more, I think they went out in
>> the 1960s.
>
>Since I can't picture what you're talking about, they may well have done.
>I don't think I gave serious thought to underwear until the late 60s.
I'm older than you. I was a college student in the early-to-mid
1960s.
>> What I could use is a time machine that would take me back to the
>> 1920s so I could buy what they were selling then, heavy-duty
>> FABRIC restraints that would take the nasty things and FLATTEN
>> THEM OUT.
>
>I know what you want -- and there must be suppliers in the US, you sharing
>a re-enactment tradition and all. You want the Tudor corset.
No I don't want the Tudor corset, because it only comes up to the
middle of the boob. I did the Ren Faire for years and I've seen
well-done ones and poorly-done ones, and they're cut to let you
wear a neckline that goes down to There. There is too much of me
for a corset cut in that way to flatten everything out. If I wore
one it would flatten the boobs down fairly well from the bottom
up to just above the nipples, and then the rest of it would
balloon out as if I had cut a canteloupe apart and stuffed the
halves down my front. If I had graphics I could draw you a diagram.
I will report back on the success of the bust-bodice when I get
the first one finished.
Izunya
<< How about 'What did you dream last night'? It might well be
impossible to answer if your protagonist doesn't remember his
dreams. Or 'Tell me a joke' (Ok, it's not a question. Still, I'd
think humour might not be unique to humans, but the kind of humour
that you need to understand a human joke might be). >>
It's worth noting that some human beings with Autism Spectrum Disorders simply
don't seem to get joking. I remember trying to explain to a young man with
Asperger's Syndrome how a truly vile pun is actually the same thing as a *good*
pun . . . actually, it gave me an insight into how hard it might be to
communicate "human stuff," to aliens.
How about, "If you had a sister/brother, would you have sex with her/him?"
The incest taboo is fairly universal[1]. Watch not only for the verbal answer,
but for a start of shock, elevated pulse, etc.
[1] Which is not to say that no human society has ever sanctioned incest,
because they have. But generally it takes place between certain individuals
designated "special." The Egyptian pharoahs, for instance. Ordinary Egyptians
did not marry their siblings.
Izunya
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> Which is not to say that no human society has ever sanctioned incest,
> because they have. But generally it takes place between certain
> individuals designated "special." The Egyptian pharoahs, for instance.
> Ordinary Egyptians did not marry their siblings.
However, the male ones did call their wives "my sister" as a term of
endearment, which makes figuring out the archaeological record
significantly more confusing. (Can't remember if "my brother" for a
husband was also common; I believe most surviving texts are male-POV.)
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
They are one person, they are two alone
They are three together, they are for each other.
- "Helplessly Hoping", Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
Ricky Robbins
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>When did you stop beating your wife?
>
After I twisted my ankle.
Ricky
Julia Jones
Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> writes
>> would it be?
>
Along Shoreline, then straight down the 101. Easy:-)
<runs away very fast>
--
Julia Jones
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send
unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org
address.
Elizabeth Shack
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <memo.2003071...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
>Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK, you
>>can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally wire-less
>>and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports
>>bra, but there you go.)
>
>I tried a sports bra once. It did absolutely nothing. Its
>delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was completely
>inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or otherwise control two
>objects weighing about a kilogram each.
There are sports bras that work much better than that.
Title 9 Sports sells some that they claim are good; I haven't tried
them because they're expensive. I think their selection in larger cup
sizes is pretty small. One would think there would be a decent
selection for people who actually desperately need them, but no.
I wear two sports bras at once when I jog, which reduces the bouncing
to a minimal level. Different styles, one that squishes from the
bottom up and the other that smushes down the bits overflowing out the
top. Both Champion, from the department store.
More than anyone wanted to know, I'm sure.
--
Elizabeth Shack
eas...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~eashack
Elizabeth Shack
<lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Heh. Personally, I have to wonder when the hell bras got SO DAMNED
>EXPENSIVE. I mean, is there *really* enough material and labor there
>to cause one tiny little undergarment to cost 25-30 bucks? Or am I
>just shopping in the really wrong places?
I was so excited to find a bra the right size in a department store
last month, at only $20 because it was the store brand, and my
boyfriend was shocked at how much it cost.
And then it turned out not to be the right size anyway, and I haven't
gone back to see if they have the next one.
I can never really tell if a bra fits until I wear it.
Elizabeth Shack
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:05:58 -0400, Alma Hromic Deckert
><ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
>
>>yes and why is it that EVERY BRA OUT THERE seems to be an underwire
>>model, if it isn't the kind of monumental cantilevered contraption
>>that's severe overkill for my, um, charms? i hate the feel of
>>underwire. but can i find one without it? you wouldn't believe how
>>hard it is.
>
>Have a look here: http://www.decentexposures.com
I second that, nice comfy cloth things. No wires, buckles, hooks.
Though the two I ordered are utterly unsupportive. I plan to spend
lots of time on the phone with them Monday to see how fixable that is
with sizing changes.
Brian M. Scott
(Mary Gentle) wrote:
[...]
>I don't think I gave serious thought to underwear until the late 60s.
Now that is an elevator line if ever I saw one! (Elevator line:
A snippet of conversation heard out of context as the elevator
door closes, leaving the hearer to construct wonderfully exotic
contexts.)
[...]
Brian
Marilee J. Layman
>Junonia (and Lane Bryant, too, I think) has a really hefty support
>sports bra which hooks in front. Made for big sizes, too. I can
>do jumping jacks in that one. Look for "max support" in Junonias
>bra section. It's not quite that thick rubberized fabric of old
>girdles, but it has about that much support.
Still not big enough for me. I occasionally order a new style in
hope, but end up sending it back to Junonia. The band size is no
problem, but if half your breasts are bulging out of the cups, it's
not much of a sports bra.
Dan Goodman
news:1fyd0cz.euk6f4anhedqN%dark...@mindspring.com:
> Izunya <izu...@aol.com> wrote
>> Which is not to say that no human society has ever sanctioned incest,
>> because they have. But generally it takes place between certain
>> individuals designated "special." The Egyptian pharoahs, for instance.
>> Ordinary Egyptians did not marry their siblings.
>
> However, the male ones did call their wives "my sister" as a term of
> endearment, which makes figuring out the archaeological record
> significantly more confusing. (Can't remember if "my brother" for a
> husband was also common; I believe most surviving texts are male-POV.)
>
I recall reading that a small but noticeable percentage of non-royal
marriages were between siblings. I have not yet checked that out.
--
Dan Goodman dsg...@visi.com
Journal: http://dsgood.blogspot.com
azqaz
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:46:31 -0500, "Julie Pascal" <ju...@pascal.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
> >that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> >a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> >with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> >that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> >unnecessary. *Grouch*
> >
> model, if it isn't the kind of monumental cantilevered contraption
> that's severe overkill for my, um, charms? i hate the feel of
> underwire. but can i find one without it? you wouldn't believe how
> hard it is.
>
Not try, did. ;)
Went to the department store, aproached the sales person
(female), and said "My wife wears a size <deleted to protect me from
angry wife> bra, and size 7 panties. Do you have any suggestions?"
At which point I recieved a totaly dumbstruck look, and had the
distinct feeling I was about 10 seconds from having store security
called down upon my head. At this point I commented that I was sorry
that I had inconvieneced her, and that I would find the items on my
own. At this point I believe she was in fear of me making a complaint
to the manager about the service and she was if not eager, at least
amenable to assisting me. I left with a nice black seamless cup bra,
without underwire, and lycra undies. The annoying part is that my
wife will wear the ensemble to work, but not for me in the evenings.
<grumble>. <grumble again>.
Bryan
>
> A.
Julie Pascal
"Joann Zimmerman" <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.198337856...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu...
> In article <bfaeu...@enews4.newsguy.com>, ju...@pascal.org says...
>
> > Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
> > that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> > a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> > with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> > that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> > unnecessary. *Grouch*
>
>
> That they would hold up that which is there to be held up, or that there
> was something to be held up in the first place?
The second.
> (For me, underwires are a necessity and do exactly what they're there
> for. Which is a Good Thing. And it turns out that sock-darning
> techniques, taught me by my Victorian grandmother, work quite well on
> corralling the errant plastic-covered wire ends, unless the damn thing
> has broken in the middle, in which case, yes, one must brave the lingerie
> dept.)
Yes, I think I could manage that. My excuse is that I never
think of it unless I'm getting dressed and am in a hurry to get
somewhere. I suppose I ought to shape up one of these days
and do all of the simple maintenance that my life is in need of.
--Julie
azqaz
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:05:58 -0400, Alma Hromic Deckert
> <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:46:31 -0500, "Julie Pascal" <ju...@pascal.org>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> >>a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> >>with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> >>that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> >>unnecessary. *Grouch*
> >>
> >model, if it isn't the kind of monumental cantilevered contraption
> >that's severe overkill for my, um, charms? i hate the feel of
> >underwire. but can i find one without it? you wouldn't believe how
> >hard it is.
> >
> >there's your question, anna. "Have you tried to buy a bra lately?" <g>
>
> EXPENSIVE. I mean, is there *really* enough material and labor there
> to cause one tiny little undergarment to cost 25-30 bucks? Or am I
> just shopping in the really wrong places?
20 years ago, I worked in a "MAJOR U.S. RETAIL CHAIN", emphasis
theirs. The purchace orders that went out had a copy on record that
showed both the wholesale and retail price. It killed me that there
was a "Lilly of France" bra that we purchased for $3.45 and sold for
$20.50. I don't know what modern wholesale prices are. At that time
VCRs had, by far, the highest markups. They were still fairly new,
but ladies undergarments were in the top 10 for markup percentage.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> The problem is that this question, as stated, makes it quite plausible
> that only Myers- Briggs "J" types will pass this item on the test, and
> "P" types would fail.
You don't understand: the test is set up (I don't know if consciously or
not) so that _everybody_ fails it. Or as close to anybody that passing
it may seem totally random.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
David Friedman
Julia Jones <jaj...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> In message <MPG.1981c852b...@news.mindspring.com>, Brian D.
> Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> writes
> >In article <1fy9fte.1guljs33s3uqzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> >ada...@spamcop.net said...
> >> If you had to aks a question to determine of somebody's human, what
> >> would it be?
> >
> >Do you know the way to San Jose?
>
> Along Shoreline, then straight down the 101. Easy:-)
280 is a much pleasanter drive.
Dorothy J Heydt
azqaz <az...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>
> Went to the department store, aproached the sales person
>(female), and said "My wife wears a size <deleted to protect me from
>angry wife> bra, and size 7 panties. Do you have any suggestions?"
>At which point I recieved a totaly dumbstruck look, and had the
>distinct feeling I was about 10 seconds from having store security
>called down upon my head. At this point I commented that I was sorry
>that I had inconvieneced her, and that I would find the items on my
>own. At this point I believe she was in fear of me making a complaint
>to the manager about the service and she was if not eager, at least
>amenable to assisting me. I left with a nice black seamless cup bra,
>without underwire, and lycra undies. The annoying part is that my
>wife will wear the ensemble to work, but not for me in the evenings.
><grumble>. <grumble again>.
Sounds kind of like the young man who went into the lingerie
department and explained that he wanted to buy a bra for his
wife. No, he didn't know the size. Asked "How big are her
breasts?" he gestured helplessly. "Well, cantelope size?" "No."
"Grapefruit size? Orange? Lemon? Egg?"
"That's it!" he said. "Fried."
Brooks Moses
> Julia Jones <jaj...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> > In message <MPG.1981c852b...@news.mindspring.com>, Brian D.
> > Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> writes
> >
> > Along Shoreline, then straight down the 101. Easy:-)
>
> 280 is a much pleasanter drive.
But decidedly out of the way if one's in Mountain View, unless one's
heading specifically for the south side of San Jose.
And, to be honest, 280 past 85 (which is how you'd get to it from here)
isn't substantially different from 101 anyhow; it's the more northerly
parts that are pretty.
- Brooks
David Friedman
Brooks Moses <bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
> David Friedman wrote:
> > Julia Jones <jaj...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> > > In message <MPG.1981c852b...@news.mindspring.com>, Brian D.
> > > Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> writes
> > > >Do you know the way to San Jose?
> > >
> > > Along Shoreline, then straight down the 101. Easy:-)
> >
> > 280 is a much pleasanter drive.
>
> But decidedly out of the way if one's in Mountain View, unless one's
> heading specifically for the south side of San Jose.
But since I am in San Jose just south of the 280 ... .
Neil Barnes
news:memo.2003071...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com,
mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote:
*your* hands, not mine. <sigh> The young women of today...
--
First they came for the verbs and I said nothing, for verbing
weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns and I speech
nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis
Neil
Brooks Moses
> Brooks Moses <bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > David Friedman wrote:
> > > Julia Jones <jaj...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> > > > In message <MPG.1981c852b...@news.mindspring.com>, Brian D.
> > > > Fernald <bfer...@mindspring.com> writes
> > > > >Do you know the way to San Jose?
> > > >
> > > > Along Shoreline, then straight down the 101. Easy:-)
> > >
> > > 280 is a much pleasanter drive.
> >
> > But decidedly out of the way if one's in Mountain View, unless one's
> > heading specifically for the south side of San Jose.
>
> But since I am in San Jose just south of the 280 ... .
It occurs to me that there are therefore at least three of us in the
south San Francisco Bay area. Perhaps we should schedule a local
get-together sometime. The "Bay-Area rasff" meetings up in Berkeley
were fun, but they appear to have dwindled away....
Anyone else interested?
- Brooks
Catja Pafort
> If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras? In the UK, you
> can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice, totally wire-less
> and often seamless, sports bra.
They rule. Worse than bouncing boobs on horseback is a bra that comes
apart during a ride. On account of you simply *cannot* put it back
together again without rearranging garments, you _and_ another would
have to dismount to solve the problem, and the other would have to know
you extremely well, and, well, it's just so _embarrassing_.
I can't remember what makes were recommended by other riders, but there
seem to be quite a few - just never when you need to buy them...
Catja
GJP [aka MamaG]
news:hq1khvkj36f7q243i...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:47:35 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com
> (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article
>><memo.2003071...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
>>Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras?
>>>In the UK, you can get everything down to about a 34A in
>>>rather nice, totally wire-less and often seamless, sports
>>>bra. (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports bra, but
>>>there you go.)
>>
>>I tried a sports bra once. It did absolutely nothing. Its
>>delicate little vaguely elasticized knitted fabric was
>>completely inadequate to lift, support, restrain, or
>>otherwise control two objects weighing about a kilogram
>>each.
>
> There are sports bras that work much better than that.
>
> Title 9 Sports sells some that they claim are good; I
> haven't tried them because they're expensive. I think
> their selection in larger cup sizes is pretty small. One
> would think there would be a decent selection for people
> who actually desperately need them, but no.
>
Those of us who have anything to restrain obviously don't _do_
sports, doncha know.
> I wear two sports bras at once when I jog, which reduces
> the bouncing to a minimal level. Different styles, one
> that squishes from the bottom up and the other that smushes
> down the bits overflowing out the top. Both Champion, from
> the department store.
>
Ooh, I hadn't thought of using two!
> More than anyone wanted to know, I'm sure.
>
--
GJP
Julia Jones
<bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> writes
>
>It occurs to me that there are therefore at least three of us in the
>south San Francisco Bay area. Perhaps we should schedule a local
>get-together sometime. The "Bay-Area rasff" meetings up in Berkeley
>were fun, but they appear to have dwindled away....
>
>Anyone else interested?
>
lactose-free diet, with whatever it is I'm not eating liable to change
at short notice.
I always said I'd rather give up chocolate than cheese. Now I have
empirical proof:-(
GJP [aka MamaG]
news:memo.2003071...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
> In article <1fycco5.1kac2d61nfi7k9N%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > If you don't have them, have you thought of sports bras?
>> > In the UK, you
>> > can get everything down to about a 34A in rather nice,
>> > totally wire-less
>> > and often seamless, sports bra. (I'm not sure why 34A
>> > _needs_ a sports
>> > bra, but there you go.)
>>
>> Because even if it's not very visible, it wobbles a lot
>> and that isn't very good for the tissues.
>
> When I wore an A-cup, they didn't wobble at all. But I've
> noticed there are differences in -- um -- bounce-ability,
> even if two women are the same cup-size. :)
>
> Mary
>
Yes, but were you playing basketball? My 13-year-old has
definitely needed a sports bra for basketball the last couple
of years, and she's only just now graduated from an A-cup to a
B-cup.
--
GJP
joy beeson
> (I'm not sure why 34A _needs_ a sports
> bra, but there you go.)
It keeps your jersey from irritating your nipples.
(The tank-top undershirt men used to wear was a sports bra.)
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at earthlink dot net
"A people that values its privileges above its principles
soon loses both." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
joy beeson
> Heh. Personally, I have to wonder when the hell bras got SO DAMNED
> EXPENSIVE. I mean, is there *really* enough material and labor there
> to cause one tiny little undergarment to cost 25-30 bucks? Or am I
> just shopping in the really wrong places?
I paid $6/bra when a serving of ice cream was a nickel.
($0.05)
But then I'd be paying $60/bra now if I could find my size.
(I make my own from cotton interlock.) Common sizes were
$2/bra when I was paying six.
Joy Beeson
--
http://home.earthlink.net/~joybeeson/ -- needlework
http://home.earthlink.net/~beeson_n3f/ -- Writers' Exchange
Suzanne A Blom
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:510ebc07c70a9f111f...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> "Julie Pascal" <ju...@pascal.org> wrote in message
> news:bfaeu...@enews4.newsguy.com
>
> >
> > > Oh, please don't remind me of underwire bras. It seems
> > that the warranty just ran out and now every bra I have includes
> > a poking out wire. This is doubly annoying because dealing
> > with these poking wires means I can't escape the self-knowledge
> > that the underwires were wishful thinking to begin with and entirely
> > unnecessary. *Grouch*
> >
> -slightly
> sharpened and with a poison tip - Many's the time I've moved suddenly
> to experience that 'ouch' moment.( I probably shouldn't use a tumble
> dryer)
I confess that what I don't understand is why women who are As & Bs still
wear the bloody things. Thirty years ago my mother told me I would look like
a cow if I didn't wear them. Hasn't happened yet. Of course, I don't ride
horses.
Julie Pascal
"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-5DA529.2...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
Though the real question is why to go to San Jose in
the first place?
Oh, yeah. Baycon. <g>
--Julie
Mary Anne Stout
<snip>
> What I could use is a time machine that would take me back to the
> 1920s so I could buy what they were selling then, heavy-duty
> FABRIC restraints that would take the nasty things and FLATTEN
> THEM OUT.
>
Ace bandage--one size fits all!!
(Unfortunately, Ace bandage doesn't come in all cotton....)
--
Mary Anne in Kentucky
Lori Selke
Brooks Moses <bmoses...@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Lori Selke wrote:
>> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> >Lori Selke <se...@io.com> wrote:
>[questions to distinguish humans from nonhumans]
>> >> "What's your favorite joke?"
>> >>
>> >> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
>> >> neat of you used it :)
>> >
>> >I think I may use it, but I'm not sure what the "real" answer could be.
>> >Unless _any_ joke is the real answer, and of course _no_ joke could get
>> >you to pass the test, because it's completely arbitrary.
>>
>> Yes, I think any joke is the real answer.
>
>The problem is that this question, as stated, makes it quite plausible
>that only Myers- Briggs "J" types will pass this item on the test, and
>"P" types would fail.
I picked that question *because* I routinely fail at it.
Lori
--
se...@io.com, se...@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk
"It must be art for sure if somebody wants to destroy it."
-- Carol Emshwiller
Lori Selke
Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Lori wrote:
>
>> "What's your favorite joke?"
>>
>> This is a question that always stumps me, too, so it's be kind of
>> neat of you used it :)
>
>memorise *one* joke, and you make a lot of people happy.
Yes, I know. And I usually have the last joke I heard at hand to
answer the question ("why do anarchists drink herbal tea?"
"because proper tea is theft"). But merely being asked is still enough
to fluster me.