D.M. Houstman: "A post-art world of collage and plagiarism"
Will Dockery
> JohnB wrote:
> > On 6 Feb, 05:48, goldencocke...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Feb 5, 7:24 pm, cecieb...@webtv.net (James Poe) wrote:
>
> >>> The other day I was reading an excerpt from "Life on the
> >>> Mississippi" by Mark Twain. In it he described how the more he learned
> >>> how to read the river in order to navigate it the less he saw of its
> >>> beauty.
> >> Sort of like the "Familiarity breeds contempt" axiom. This happens in
> >> marriage sometimes...or even a *pop* group like The Beatles.
>
> >> While this sort of attitude can (and often does) creep into one's
> >> experience of things loved and admired, in some cases the complete
> >> *knowing* of the object is enhanced. To know and wonder at all the
> >> various pieces of the puzzle that come together to form the whole,
> >> causes one to marvel at the intricate workings of the infinite
> >> universe.
>
> >> Sometimes, a banana is a fruit.
>
> >>www.Shemakhan.com
>
> > Some believe that if ever scientists "explain" art, it will cease to
> > be art.
>
> There are some reasons to believe that we are already living in a
> "post-art" world, in which all work produced is merely collage and
> plagiarism, comments on art rather than art itself. And it didn't happen
> because "scientists 'explained' art" (whatever that could mean), but
> because the surrounding culture, driven by mere Sensation, the ubiquity
> of entertainment, and the "hive-mind" radiated by TV and the like, has
> become less a viable habitat for individual expression and for the quiet
> and timeless interstices in which imagination finds its outlet.
This is an interesting, though no new satori, on the problems of
living in the modern times and the bombardment of "influences" in
every room.
I ran into just a situation a couple of nights ago, when i met up with
Henry Conley to write a song or two in a freezing back room of the
Coin-Op building... through the wall, the man with the job of
renovating the huge place, Harmonica Harry was wiring up a section of
the building so new tenants can move an African-American bookstore in
that spot., and was playing some obscure raggae/dub stuff he'd found
in Philadelphia, with heavy rattling basslines that shook right
through the brick walls into the section we were in, near the stage.
I said the HC, might as well use that beat, and we did... a raggae
touched song with that heavy bass thump running through it, and one of
my favorites yet. More on that later.
--
"Twilight Girl" and other song-poems by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
George Dance
> On Feb 6, 6:43 am, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>
>
> > There are some reasons to believe that we are already living in a
> > "post-art" world, in which all work produced is merely collage and
> > plagiarism, comments on art rather than art itself.
Reminds me of a poem of mine:
postpoetry
postpoetry
although there's nothing left to say
we're gonna say it anyway
and if a reader doesn't read
we'll call him something we don't need
and if a critic calls it shit
we won't believe a word of it
and if a poet points that out
we'll just ignore it and we'll shout
about her frogs and trees and birds
so we won't have to read her words
or better yet let's write of war
and fill a page or two with gore
some reeking flesh a severed head
and maggots feasting on the dead
as for the robin what the heck
we’ll wring the little birdie's neck
and if perchance that doesn't shock
let's add a line of fuck ass cock
motherfucker piss and shit
(who knows that just might pass for wit)
what else to do what else to say
when everything is mere cliche?
how else to make a reader feel
or think that what we say is real?
of course the whole idea is dumb
when we're as comfortably numb
but if we act each proper motion
we may find a real emotion –
least it wastes an hour or two
and we have nothing else to do
> > And it didn't happen
> > because "scientists 'explained' art" (whatever that could mean), but
> > because the surrounding culture, driven by mere Sensation, the ubiquity
> > of entertainment, and the "hive-mind" radiated by TV and the like, has
> > become less a viable habitat for individual expression and for the quiet
> > and timeless interstices in which imagination finds its outlet.
>
I doubt that it happened at all. The ratio of plagiarizing hacks to
real artists has probably not changed one whit in recent times.
> This is an interesting, though no new satori, on the problems of
> living in the modern times and the bombardment of "influences" in
> every room.
>
> I ran into just a situation a couple of nights ago, when i met up with
> Henry Conley to write a song or two in a freezing back room of the
> Coin-Op building... through the wall, the man with the job of
> renovating the huge place, Harmonica Harry was wiring up a section of
> the building so new tenants can move an African-American bookstore in
> that spot., and was playing some obscure raggae/dub stuff he'd found
> in Philadelphia, with heavy rattling basslines that shook right
> through the brick walls into the section we were in, near the stage.
>
> I said the HC, might as well use that beat, and we did... a raggae
> touched song with that heavy bass thump running through it, and one of
> my favorites yet. More on that later.
>
Certainly it's a good idea to incorporate other people's ideas into
your own work; only the vainest egotist will think that all and only
his own ideas are sufficient to produce art, of any kind,
consistently.
An observation that also counts against Mr. Houstman's 'satori.' It's
true that contemporary poets rely more on the knowledge base than
their predecessors -- only because they have far better access -- but
it's silly to think that means the death of art. For example, Dale's
"collage and plagiarism" charge fits no modern poet better than Ezra
Pound; but anyone who concluded from that that Pound produced no art
would be only showing his own ignorance.
Will Dockery
> RichL wrote:
> > Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> >> RichL wrote:
> >>> JohnB <johnbo...@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> On 6 Feb, 11:43, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> >>>>> JohnB wrote:
> >>>>>> On 6 Feb, 05:48, goldencocke...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Feb 5, 7:24 pm, cecieb...@webtv.net (James Poe) wrote:
> >>>>>>>> The other day I was reading an excerpt from "Life on the
> >>>>>>>> Mississippi" by Mark Twain. In it he described how the more he
> >>>>>>>> learned how to read the river in order to navigate it the less
> >>>>>>>> he saw of its beauty.
> >>>>>>> Sort of like the "Familiarity breeds contempt" axiom. This
> >>>>>>> happens in marriage sometimes...or even a *pop* group like The
> >>>>>>> Beatles. While this sort of attitude can (and often does) creep
> >>>>>>> into one's experience of things loved and admired, in some cases
> >>>>>>> the complete *knowing* of the object is enhanced. To know and
> >>>>>>> wonder at all the various pieces of the puzzle that come
> >>>>>>> together to form the whole, causes one to marvel at the
> >>>>>>> intricate workings of the infinite universe.
> >>>>>>> Sometimes, a banana is a fruit.
> >>>>>>>www.Shemakhan.com
> >>>>>> Some believe that if ever scientists "explain" art, it will cease
> >>>>>> to be art.
> >>>>> "post-art" world, in which all work produced is merely collage and
> >>>>> happen because "scientists 'explained' art" (whatever that could
> >>>>> mean), but because the surrounding culture, driven by mere
> >>>>> Sensation, the ubiquity of entertainment, and the "hive-mind"
> >>>>> radiated by TV and the like, has become less a viable habitat for
> >>>>> individual expression and for the quiet and timeless interstices in
> >>>>> which imagination finds its outlet.
>
> >>>> True, but I don't believe this post-art world to be a complete
> >>>> takeover ... yet. Of course, it opens up the debate: "what is art?"
> >>>> I think there are an awful lot of conservative minds out there who
> >>>> hold to a rather narrow definition. They are the ones that will
> >>>> hasten this post-art world. Truly open-minded intelligent people
> >>>> are rare. Always have been, I suppose, but these days more seem to
> >>>> like to think they are. I do.
> >>> I don't have such a pessimistic view. Conservative minds have always
> >>> had a fairly narrow definition but that hasn't prevented the more
> >>> adventurous from exploring new territory.
>
> >>> As long as there is thought, there will be new territory. Same as
> >>> the sciences, really. Around 1900, the prevailing view among the
> >>> "knowledgeable" was that all important physics had already been done
> >>> and all that was left was to dot "i"s and cross "t"s. Little did
> >>> they know...
>
> >> This is likely true, but one cannot dismiss too easily that which -
> >> although a totally subjective sensation - nevertheless has been a
> >> source
> >> of "art" itself: alienation from the dramatic present as it moves
> >> forward into an uncertain future that will not - after all - contain
> >> your own ego. It may well be we are living through a transitional
> >> stage, that greater "territory" lies just around that dark
> >> promontory. But "idea systems" do shrink and disappear, and - at
> >> least physically - the human race can actually run out of room to
> >> move. Whether or not this has
> >> an analogy in human consciousness, I couldn't say. But individual
> >> cultures - with their unique expressions and "take" on the universe -
> >> have been born, grown rich, wilted, and become dessicated. It is only
> >> a matter of whether this can happen to the entire race. Frankly, I
> >> don't know.
>
> > I don't either; in the end, I'm just guessing. Cultures die, and new
> > ones arise to take their places. It doesn't necessarily happen
> > immediately. As to whether the human brain has exhausted its capacity
> > for creativity, I doubt it. I think current "man" barely utilizes it,
> > especially if usenet is any indication ;-)
>
> Heh... Seriously though, you raise a serious point: creativity does NOT
> (as is supposed) arise from some mysteriously isolated function in a
> single brain, but is a sort of "compromise" between an individual, the
> culture which nurtures and assaults hi, and the "actual" versus the
> "potential" objective universe they are swimming in. If usenet is -
> indeed - any indication of what the mass visible culture is going to be,
> art as a public thing may be endangered.
Not at all, despite your constant attempts to smack down and drive
away any new "artists" who post here. Sure, plenty of the newbie poets
will run away, and even more will move into the Stockholm Syndrome,
such as Barbie Cat and Gary Gamble, those that are smacked into
submission enough that they don't dare risk posting poetry here, and
instead emulate their betters with worthless little harrassment posts,
but the artists among us who will not settle for being driven
underground will remain, and, I predict, grow in numbers.
"We will bury you."
Duchamp said (I paraphrase
> because I am too lazy to search that mass of info at the moment) that in
> the future the only real option for an artist would be to go
> underground, that society had basically learned how to absorb and tame
> artistic expression, turning it to commodity. This is why I (and others)
> often find our "aesthetic delights" today not in what is touted in
> glossy magazines, shown in museums, displayed on TV, but in relatively
> unconscious "folk art," the art of the mad, and children, etc.
Interesting.
There is
> nothing wrong about what might be seen as a regression: most art has
> always been produced secretly, by the un-noticed and the un-paid. Of
> course THIS will continue, and perhaps even flourish. But it does seem
> society at large has figured out how to make even the most outrageous or
> radical gesture into commodity overnight: art has finally found its
> marketplace, and the marketplace wins. Once an imaginative act is
> commodified, it might still retain entertainment value (it is still - as
> the Situationists might say - a part of the Spectacle), and it still
> might generate that interest which pleases the sellers. But it has
> turned from passionate statement into historical wallpaper. This happens
> to all art over time, but it is the speed at which it is done now which
> might be the clearest symptom of an unprecedented break in human culture
> which sends art forevermore into the outlying areas, trying to escape
> that wilting gaze of "What's New To Eat?"
In your case, "Newbie Poets" and/or your "Slurpbuddy Of The Week."
As "We know."
Will Dockery
>
> The other day I was reading an excerpt from "Life on the
> Mississippi" by Mark Twain. In it he described how the more he learned
> how to read the river in order to navigate it the less he saw of its
> beauty.
This can easily apply to poetry, songwriting, and other arts... and a
problem with those who become so obsessed with act of writing the
poem, the form and structure, they begin to overlook the whole point
of creating it in the first place.
--
"Twilight Girl" and other poetry & music from Will Dockery:http://
www.myspace.com/willdockery
David F. Cox
"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ac957b5-85b8-4267...@o36g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
I will join you and "Mark" in that observation. It applies to the dance form
I enjoy too. I wage a constant war of words against those that want more
rules, more structure. People need a place to play, to do things for the fun
of it. A place to learn to enjoy before they properly learn to do.
rec is short for recreational, not wreck.
Few think it right to beat an infant because it cannot do something well, or
at all. Perhaps there is an opening for rec.critic where they could all
criticise each others criticism and leave the poets alone. They don't need
us, and we certainly don't need them.
David F. Cox
Orsen Wells w/Citizen Cain
"Will Dockery" <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ac957b5-85b8-4267...@o36g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> The other day I was reading an excerpt from "Life on the
> Mississippi" by Mark Twain. In it he described how the more he learned
> how to read the river in order to navigate it the less he saw of its
> beauty.
This can easily apply to poetry, songwriting, and other arts... and a
problem with those who become so obsessed with act of writing the
poem, the form and structure, they begin to overlook the whole point
of creating it in the first place.
Mark Twain would stab you in the eye with his cigar and push you into the
Mississippi River, Will. You're a worthless douchebag, and Twain would
recognize that fact immediately.
messakania
> "Will Dockery" <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote in message
that reminds me of a neds atomic dustbin song I heard. "The more I
see the you know" that's what they said.
Also I seem to have completed my degree in biochemistry, and I haven't
really put much together with it. Somethings, but very little. I
don't want to take another creative writing- poetry class- but it's
probably about time
I start reading some ee cummings or ts eliot again. The critics on
here are pretty intense. I usually don't talk
to people, because I hate to say it, rec.arts.poems sorta has been on
the wierd side since 2003... I've been
posting here since 1997, and, to answer someone's question, of course
the reader's response to things matters.
I think i gave into alot of bad poetry writing in 1998, and then I
just wrote for my teacher in 1999, but everything blew up after the
matrix and the columbine disaster. Isn't it cool that the people who
were poets were named Time's person of the year in 2006. That's when
I wrote some OK song-poems.
But I'm really struggling with changing, and that 4-20 thing at
columbine and the matrix really affected my mental illness. Don't be
suprised if my writing here resembles "the matrix" soundtrack too. I
don't want to go into it anymore... I don't know if william gibson
should be writing poetry, but it's something I experimented with. Ok,
then I'll regroup with 1999 and not 1997. Those have caused so many
capses to my writing that it's hard to regroup with the new
millinium.
ray heinrich
I agree with Dance that contemporary poets (also artists,
engineers, politicians?, etc.etc.) can make use of a broader
knowledge base than their predecessors. I think this makes
for a much richer environment in which to create.
Incorporating other stuff into your own work is the very
heart of creation: evolution.
"Everything old is new again"
Something that I think is missed a whole lot is that the amount
of info that any one person can experience (much less absorb
or communicate) is about a gazillionth of what is out there
(up from a mere zillionth in the olden days). Due to this
limiting factor (as well as death, the inevitable decay of
memory and historical info, etc. etc.), there is never any
chance that art (etc.) will run out of "new" stuff because
"new" is relative to both the creator and the audience.
As a recreational writer and audience myself, I usually
list this under "Encouraging Facets of the Universe",
thought sometimes it gets put under "Prime Directives".
Ray
p.s. A corollary to this is that no matter how bad, good,
plagiarized, or "original" your stuff is; you can always
find an audience willing to believe any of the above
about it. (Sublime!!)
obpoem:
< existence >
the beach and the moon sing together
and i try to join in
(it's a subtle tune)
while my feet are busy with the sand
(rocks, they insist)
out
on this lonely point of land
that really isn't here
you see
(since they dredged the channel in 93)
but if it's here for you
that's good enough for me
- - -
aside from the sea lion
http://wordbiscuit.com
the apartment was perfect
Peter J Ross
Dockery <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:24 pm, cecieb...@webtv.net (James Poe) wrote:
>>
>> The other day I was reading an excerpt from "Life on the
>> Mississippi" by Mark Twain. In it he described how the more he learned
>> how to read the river in order to navigate it the less he saw of its
>> beauty.
>
> This can easily apply to poetry, songwriting, and other arts... and a
> problem with those who become so obsessed with act of writing the
> poem, the form and structure, they begin to overlook the whole point
> of creating it in the first place.
Having never attempted to learn how to navigate the river of
verse-writing, how would you know anything about it?
--
PJR :-)
Will Dockery
>Will Dockery wrote:
> your own work; only the vainest egotist will think that all and only
> his own ideas are sufficient to produce art, of any kind,
> consistently.
>
> An observation that also counts against Mr. Houstman's 'satori.' It's
> true that contemporary poets rely more on the knowledge base than
> their predecessors -- only because they have far better access -- but
> it's silly to think that means the death of art. For example, Dale's
> "collage and plagiarism" charge fits no modern poet better than Ezra
> Pound; but anyone who concluded from that that Pound produced no art
> would be only showing his own ignorance.
Stuart Leichter wrote:
Looking for something I remembered from a while back that relates led
me into an entire discussion on almost exactly the same points a while
back, when Stuart Leichter was still hanging out here:
"...My bubble gum card collection of Famous Moments in Poetry includes
Ezra Pound in the Imagists Series of cards, and (although you can't
trust bubble gum card anonymous writers -- Topps and Fleer are
corporate authors, if that) gives Pound the credit for introducing and
promoting 'haiku' (or 'hokku') along with other Japanese and Chinese
forms in English poetry, while he was editor of _Des Imagistes_ in
1913. Other cards in that series include H.D., Amy Lowell, and W.C.
Williams, who, coincidentally, is #1 in the First Set and #101 in the
Second Set, a double honor that Topps also gave to only one other
person: Ted Williams (in 1954 or 1955?) Kerouac and Maynard G. Krebs,
nevertheless, are the unsmug heroes and heralds of the Prepop Age..."
George Dance wrote:
> > > > My daughter asked me to share this poem (author unknown to either of us):
>
>>> Haiku are quite easy
>>> though sometimes they make no sense;
>>> refrigerator.
>
> > Hmm. Remind me of the first poem I ever memorized. It was from a
> > Beverley Hillbillies episode in which (for some reason connected with
> > the Drysdales) a Beat Poet from San Francisco was staying with the
> > Clampetts.
> > One day Granny found the poet standing on his head against a wall. He
> > told her he was meditating; when she asked why he told her (more or
> > less), "When I meditate, my brains soar." So she explained that it
> > was sore because all his blood was rushing to it, and pulled him
> > down.
> > He was a bit upset, and told her that was how he wrote his poetry.
> > She asked if he'd written a poem; he told her he had, and recited it
> > (and this part I've committed to memory):
>
> > Blue cheesecake
> > A silver spoon in the sand
> > The seaweed barks at me.
>
> > So she turned him upside down again, and left him there to write a
> > better one.
>
> Old school television had a grip on the Beat scene, no doubt... the Addams
> Family hosted a poetry gathering, while the Munsters took it on down the
> Highway 61.
> I'm sitting here with the television blasting on the side like old time
> radio, and Lucy and Ricky Ricardo are going through the old "handcuffed by
> accident" routine (TVLand could do a compilation of these, since it seems
> everyone on sitcom tv went through this at least once).
> An old locksmith from Yonkers is there to set 'em free but is more
> interested in Ricardo's music, as his wife is a fan... and he says "For
> Christmas I'll give her a drum."
As soon as I read those lines, I heard Ricky Nelson in my mind.
> So, in L&T tradition, what were the chances Dylan was sitting up one night,
> smoking weed and writing LMZNL, and the late night reruns playing soft off
> to the side is this "I Love Lucy" episode? It would have been about a decade
> old at the time, and probably in syndication prime... just a morning coffee
> thought to toss out which was of at least a passing Dylan interest.
It's interesting. A while back I was reading some posts on the
"Dylan
ripped off Timrod" controversy, and I read a good article on that;
the
writer came up with a dozen or so other sources that Dylan "ripped
off" in the same song - his point being that the way they've been
recombined, to say something new, makes them original art. (I doubt
I'd be able to find the article again, unfortunately.)
"I had withdrawn in forest and my song
Was swallowed up in leaves..."
-Robert Frost
[from the review of "A Boy's Will" by Robert Frost]:
"I remember that I was canoeing and thirsty and I put into a shanty
for
water and found a man who had no water and gave me cold coffee
instead. And he didn't understand it, he was from a minor city and he
"just set there
watchin' the river" and didn't "seem to want to go back," and he
didn't care for anything else. and so I presume he entered into
Anunda. And I remember Joseph Campbell telling me of meeting a man on
a desolate waste of bogs, and he said to him, "it's rather dull here";
and the man said, "Faith, ye can sit on a middan and dream stars. And
that is the essence of folk poetry with distinction between America
and Ireland. And Frost's book reminded me of these things..."
-Ezra Pound
> > The music is copped, sometimes note-for-note, from such people as BB King
> > and Bing Crosby... I had a link to a site that plays the original songs,
and
> > they're so close to the songs Dylan "wrote" that they sound like the
same tracks sometimes.
> > But while the Timrod poetry is public domain and /legally/ available (it
> > would have looked better for Dylan if he'd given credit to Timrod either in
> > the byline of the songs, or at least in the liner notes) much bigger was his
> > lifting of dozens of lines from the Japanese writer Dr. Saga for the
songs
> > of "Love & Theft" back in '01.
> > But, like the person wrote on the use of the Timrod lines, Dylan did do
some
> > interesting things with the lines... some of his best songs are on these two records, imo.
> Pretty much what the author of the article I rememberd said. I found
> it, BTW; it was actually a webbed article by Robert Polito (who edited
> Kenneth Fearing's /Selected Poems/. Here's the link:
> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/feature.html?id=178703
Yeah, that's the one... still, the use of multiple lines by another
writer
is a situation I'd hate to have to deal with enough that I'll continue
to
think up my own. Here's a good piece on the borrowings from the
Japaenese writer, which he turned into some fantastic works, actually
some of his best work ever:
"CONFESSIONS OF A YAKUZA" BY JUNICHI SAGA" "LOVE AND THEFT" BY BOB
DYLAN**
<http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/plagiarbk010.htm>
"My old man would sit there like a feudal lord..." ("Confessions of a
Yakuza," page 6) "My old man, he's like some feudal lord/Got more
lives
than a cat" ("Floater")
"If it bothers you so much," she'd say, " why don't you just shove
off?"
("Confessions," page 9) "Juliet said back to Romeo, 'Why don't you
just
shove off/If it bothers you so much?'" ("Floater")
"My mother...was the daughter of a wealthy farmer...(she) died when I
was eleven...I heard that my father was a traveling salesman who
called at the house regularly, but I never met him. (My uncle) was a
nice man, I won't forget him...After my mother died, I decided it'd be
best to go and try my luck there." ("Confessions," pages 57-58) "My
mother was a daughter of a wealthy farmer/My father was a traveling
salesman, I never met him/When my
mother died, my uncle took me in -- he ran a funeral parlor/He did a
lot of
nice things for me and I won't forget him" ("Po' Boy")
"Break the roof in!" he yelled.... (He) splashed kerosene over the
floor and led a fuse from it outside." ("Confessions," page 63) "Yes,
I'm leaving in the morning just as soon as the dark clouds lift/Gonna
break
the roof in -- set fire to the place as a parting gift" ("Summer
Days")
"I won't come anymore if it bothers you." ("Confessions," page 139)
"Some things are too terrible to be true/I won't come here no more if
it
bothers you" ("Honest With Me")
"D'you think I could call myself a yakuza if I couldn't stand up to
some old
businessman?" ("Confessions," page 141) "D'you think I could call
myself a yakuza if I couldn't stand up to some old businessman?"
("Confessions," page 141)
" ...I heard he caused some kind of trouble that put him on bad terms
with
the younger men.... A good bookie makes all the difference in a
gambling
joint-- it's up to him whether a session comes alive or falls flat....
But
even kicking him out wasn't as easy as that.... So I decided to wait a
while
and see how it worked out.... But age doesn't matter in that
business....
Age by itself just doesn't carry any weight. ("Confessions," pages
153- 155) "The old men 'round here, sometimes they get on/Bad terms
with the younger men, But old, young , age don't carry weight/It
doesn't matter in the end"
("Floater") "Things come alive or they fall flat" ("Floater") "It's
not always easy kicking someone out/Gotta wait a while - it can be an
unpleasant task" ("Floater") "Actually, though, I'm not as cool or
forgiving as I might have sounded." ("Confessions," page 158) "I'm not
quite as cool or forgiving as I sound/I've seen enough heartaches and
strife" ("Floater") "Tears or not, though, that was too much to
ask...." ("Confessions," page 182) "Sometimes somebody wants you to
give something up/And tears or not, it's too much to ask ("Floater")
"Just because she was in the same house didn't mean we were living
together as man and wife...I don't know how it looked to other people,
but I never
even slept with her--not once." ("Confessions," page 208)
"Samantha Brown lived in my house for about four or five months/Don't
know how it looked to other people/I never slept with her even once"
("Lonsesome Day Blues")
"They were big, those trees--a good four feet across the trunk...."
("Confessions, page 241) "There's a new grove of trees on the
outskirts of town/The old one is long gone/Timber two-foot six across/
Burns with the bark still on" ("Floater")
"There was nothing sentimental about him--it didn't bother him at all
that
some of his pals had been killed. ("Confessions," page 243) "My
captain,
he's decorated -- he's well schooled and he's skilled/He's not
sentimental -- don't bother him at all/How many of his pals have been
killed" ("Lonesome Day Blues") Dylan's "people" denied that he'd
stolen the lines, about a dozen, although they match word-for-word. To
this day Saga isn't mentioned anywhere on the cover or credits, and
the song is still credited to Dylan only. I wrote here at the time
that a cool way to handle it might have been to change the credit to
the song to "Dylan-Saga", and perhaps open the door to future
collaborations between the two.
>> There are some reasons to believe that we are already living in a
>> "post-art" world, in which all work produced is merely collage and
>> plagiarism, comments on art rather than art itself.
--
George Dance
> I agree with Dance that contemporary poets (also artists,
> engineers, politicians?, etc.etc.) can make use of a broader
> knowledge base than their predecessors. I think this makes
> for a much richer environment in which to create.
> Incorporating other stuff into your own work is the very
> heart of creation: evolution.
>
> "Everything old is new again"
> Something that I think is missed a whole lot is that the amount
> of info that any one person can experience (much less absorb
> or communicate) is about a gazillionth of what is out there
> (up from a mere zillionth in the olden days). Due to this
> limiting factor (as well as death, the inevitable decay of
> memory and historical info, etc. etc.), there is never any
> chance that art (etc.) will run out of "new" stuff because
> "new" is relative to both the creator and the audience.
>
> As a recreational writer and audience myself, I usually
> list this under "Encouraging Facets of the Universe",
> thought sometimes it gets put under "Prime Directives".Ray
>
All very true. A wannabee poet could spend his life just doing riffs
on past poems, not to mention all the rest of human creation. I wanted
to acknowledge that, without spending much time, because I wanted to
snip over to ...
> p.s. A corollary to this is that no matter how bad, good,
> plagiarized, or "original" your stuff is; you can always
> find an audience willing to believe any of the above
> about it. (Sublime!!)
>
> obpoem:
>
> < existence >
>
> the beach and the moon sing together
> and i try to join in
> (it's a subtle tune)
> while my feet are busy with the sand
> (rocks, they insist)
> out
> on this lonely point of land
> that really isn't here
> you see
> (since they dredged the channel in 93)
> but if it's here for you
> that's good enough for me
>
> - - -
>
That may be the best obpoem I've read (not counting those I write
myself, of course). I enjoyed that ever part was composed of (1) a
common impression to get the reader involved and (2) an idiosyncratic
observation the reader most likely wouldn't have thought of.
LL8-12 are a serious example of rule-breaking -- the rule, as I've
learned it, is that you're never to tell the reader: I'm not really
there, this is just a poem I'm thinking -- but you do it so
deliberately, so insouciantly, that I have to love it.
You strike me as someone who's spent a good amount of time writing
this stuff, and I would encourage you to post more on aapc.
> aside from the sea lionhttp://wordbiscuit.com
> the apartment was perfect