"The Waste Land" & original notes
Will Dockery
<snip for focus>
> "The Waste Land," and I've found something
> wonderful which I [...]
> and some others, will enjoy:
http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
> Thank you.
Thank you for finding & posting this, Cythera... some dynamite
reading.
--
"She Sleeps Tight" / Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
Will Dockery
> On 25-Feb-2011, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> You've never read it before, am I right?
Yeah, I read it back in the 1970s when I was a youngster.
--
Music, poetry & video of Will Dockery & Friends:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WDockery
George Dance
> "ggamble" <ly...@burnout.net> wrote:
> > On 25-Feb-2011, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > You've never read it before, am I right?
>
> Yeah, I read it back in the 1970s when I was a youngster.
>
Well, yes. If you've taken high school English in N. America, then
you've probably read The Waste Land. For ~ggary~ and his friends to
pretend that no one outside their clique read TWL is as stupid as
their pretence that no one outside their clique read any Shakespeare.
What you might not know (as it isn't taught, and doesn't appear in
anthologies, or even in his Selected Poems), is that T.S. Eliot
published (at least) one prose poem of his own, called "Hysteria":
http://www.online-literature.com/ts-eliot/poems/22/
Will Dockery
> On Feb 25, 7:19 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > <snip for focus>
>
> > > "The Waste Land," and I've found something
> > > and some others, will enjoy:
>
> >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > > Thank you.
>
> > Thank you for finding & posting this, Cythera... some dynamite
> > reading.
>
> -- Will Dockery
True, but that's just me, nobody else, including you, have any
obligations to create original material:
http://www.cracked.com/article_17198_5-great-men-who-built-their-careers-plagiarism.html
"...The problem with this is that Eliot didn't write "The Waste Land."
Not all of it anyway. As it turns out, the idea behind "The Waste
Land," and a fair amount of its content, was plagiarized from an
almost unknown American poet named Madison Cawein. [...] Cawein's poem
was even named "Waste Land." It was first published in the same issue
of Poetry as Eliot's "Love Song," and contains several metaphors that
were later used word for word by Eliot in his "The Waste Land." [...]
Most of "The Waste Land" was just cobbled together out of quotes from
other writers."
Will Dockery
> On 26-Feb-2011, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > > You've never read it before, am I right?
>
> > Yeah, I read it back in the 1970s when I was a youngster.
>
Sure did, at the same time I was reading a lot of Ezra Pound & Robert
Frost.
Will Dockery
>George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land," and I've found something
> > > > wonderful which I
> > > > and some others, will enjoy
>
>
>
> Yeah, she reread it
"Like fuck she did"?
Hieronymous Corey
True, but that's just me,
nobody else, including you,
have any obligations
to create original material:
poetry of Will Dockery
Meat Plow
> On 26-Feb-2011, Will Dockery <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
>
>
>> > Yeah, she reread it
>>
>> "Like fuck she did"?
>
> What the fuck is wrong with you?
What isn't?
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
Hieronymous Corey
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:07:09 +0000, ggamble wrote:
>
> >> >Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
>
> >> > Yeah, she reread it
>
> >> "Like fuck she did"?
>
> > What the fuck is wrong with you?
>
> What isn't?
Almost everything isn't wrong with George. I could tell you exactly
what is wrong with George though because I'm one of those what you
call honest to God psychic type. You of all people should know that.
You responded to me to the effect that you thought I was obsessing on
you. Will responded by saying that I was being creepy. I get that
sort of thing a lot. You'd think if I were as smart as I act I'd
learn when to keep my mouth shut. I'm obviously not that smart.
Meat Plow
> On Feb 26, 2:12 pm, Meat Plow <mhyw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:07:09 +0000, ggamble wrote:
>> > On 26-Feb-2011, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
>>
>> >> > Yeah, she reread it
>>
>> >> "Like fuck she did"?
>>
>> > What the fuck is wrong with you?
>>
>> What isn't?
>
> Almost everything isn't wrong with George.
Check the quote attributes.
Hieronymous Corey
> Check the quote attributes.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I really don't need to do that at all.
George is fine, but of course he's got "issues" just like you, me, and
everybody else. I just happen to think I know what his issues are,
just like I think I know what your issues are. You can think I don't
know what I'm talking about and say so, and that's you're right.
Personally, I don't feel inclined to discuss George's personal issues
with you, much as I inquired of you in a manner than was not
excessively revelatory of your personal details the other day. I'm
not here to embarrass anybody but myself, which incidentally happens
with great regularity, so I'm going to shut up not before this gets
any worse.
Will Dockery
> Will Dockery wrote:
>>Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
> > > Yeah, she reread it
>
> > "Like fuck she did"?
>
> What the fuck is wrong with you?
Not a thing, Gary... I was quoting you, there:
> > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > > You've never read it before, am I right?
>
> > Yeah, I read it back in the 1970s when I was a youngster.
>
> Like fuck you did.
So, a better question is: What the fuck is wrong with *you*, Gary?
Will Dockery
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> True, but that's just me,
> nobody else, including you,
> have any obligations
> to create original material:
>
> poetry of Will Dockery
True that... btw, here's some of our last discussion of Madison
Cawein:
"Waste Land" by Madison Cawein can be read on The Betty Blog;
http://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2010/11/waste-land-madison-cawein.html
<snip for focus>
> > > > Here's a Robert Evans, but I don't think it's who you're looking fo=
r.
> > > > 5 Great Men Who Built Their Careers on Plagiarism:http://tinyurl.co=
m/32bxtzk
>
> > > Not only is this author's thesis that Eliot 'plagiarised' The Waste
> > > Land from Madison Cawein's Waste Land ridiculous,
>
> > How so? I just read the short piece here, and this is the first I know
> > of it...
>
> I'd call it ridiculous, because first of all they're two different poems.
Well, that's the bottom line, of course.
Cawein's is just a description of and meditation on a real
> wasteland, while Eliot's is mostly something else. Even in the couple
> of places where Eliot does describe wasteland, and there's some
> obvious overlap of images, it's not the same at all:
>
> What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow
> Out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, =A0 =A020
> You cannot say, or guess, for you know only
> A heap of broken images, where the sun beats,
> And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief,
> And the dry stone no sound of water.
> (TWL, TSE)
>
> > is it basically a sort of "Houstmanized" situation, or what?
>
> I've never seen any evidence that Eliot even read Cawein's poem. Pound
> might have, and he might have remembered the title from there and
> later suggested it to Eliot for his poem. (Eliot's working title was,
> "He Do the Police in Different Voices.") But that's just a bunch of
> 'mights.'
Interesting sideline here, man... going over to your blog to have a
read on Cawein's poem, now.
--
Dream Tears / Will Dockery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgX035Ybafx4
> but it's factually
> > > inaccurate. 'Cawein's poem was even named "Waste Land." It was first
> > > published in the same issue of Poetry as Eliot's "Love Song,"' In
> > > fact, Cawein's poem was published in Poetry in Jan. 1913, and Eliot's
> > > not until June 1915.
>
> > >http://timelines.com/1915/6/the-love-song-of-j-alfred-prufrock-is-pub.=
..
>
> > > There is an article by Ezra Pound in the Jan. 1913 Poetry, on the
> > > London poetry scene, which doesn't mention Eliot.
>
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Cawein
>
> > > That's what can happen when one doesn't look something up.
>
> > > BTW, "Waste Land" can be read on The Betty Blog;
>
> > >http://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2010/11/waste-land-madison-cawein.htm=
l
>
> > > Read more:http://www.cracked.com/article_17198_5-great-men-who-built-=
their-care...
>
> > Thanks, George, I'll go have a look at Madison Cawein's Waste Land!
>
> > --
> > Shadowville Prehistoric:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=3D91792&id=3D620409362&l=3D95ed54ec93
Hieronymous Corey
> "ggamble" <ly...@burnout.net> wrote:
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >>Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
> > > > Yeah, she reread it
>
> > > "Like fuck she did"?
>
> > What the fuck is wrong with you?
>
> Not a thing, Gary... I was quoting you, there:
>
> > > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > > > You've never read it before, am I right?
>
> > > Yeah, I read it back in the 1970s when I was a youngster.
>
> > Like fuck you did.
>
> So, a better question is: What the fuck is wrong with *you*, Gary?
I think it's pretty obvious that you have no real idea what a 'better'
question is, do you? Is this question better than the last one? What
do you want to find out when you ask a question? How do you know when
you've asked the right question? When do you know you get the right
answer? Is there a point to be made with all of these questions? Who
the fuck knows?
Will Dockery
> On Feb 26, 4:24 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>> "ggamble" <lying @burnout.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
<snip for brevity>
> > So, a better question is: What the fuck is wrong with *you*, Gary?
>
> I think it's pretty obvious that you have no real idea
No, you're the mind reader here, so you probably know what the fuck is
wrong with ggamble better than even he does, am I right?
Hieronymous Corey
> Hieronymous Corey <hieronymous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 26, 4:24 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> "ggamble" <lying @burnout.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> <snip for brevity>
>
> > > So, a better question is: What the fuck is wrong with *you*, Gary?
>
> > I think it's pretty obvious that you have no real idea
>
> No, you're the mind reader here, so you probably know what the fuck is
> wrong with ggamble better than even he does, am I right?
Yes, of course I do, and he knows I do. Why do you think he hardly
ever responds to me? He's a sissified momma's boy, and he's afraid of
my superpowers. I said you were a moron, but I never said you were
totally stupid, and you're certainly not the candyassed hind teat
sucker that twit is. No offense, of course.
Cujo DeSockpuppet
news:7YadnfQCo5IewPTQ...@giganews.com:
>
> On 26-Feb-2011, Will Dockery <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
>
>
>> > Yeah, she reread it
>>
>> "Like fuck she did"?
>
> What the fuck is wrong with you?
Let's save bandwidth and ask what's right instead.
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
"You will answer in court bitch." - Edmo just before her land
sharks forced Edmo to repay loans.
Hieronymous Corey
-- poetry of Will Dockery
> True that
True that.
Will Dockery
>Will Dockery wrote:
>> "ggamble" <lying @burnout.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
>
> > <snip for brevity>
>
> > > > So, a better question is: What the fuck is wrong with *you*, Gary?
>
> > > I think it's pretty obvious that you have no real idea
>
> > No, you're the mind reader here, so you probably know what the fuck is
> > wrong with ggamble better than even he does, am I right?
>
> Yes, of course I do, and he knows I do. Why do you think he hardly
> ever responds to me? He's a sissified momma's boy, and he's afraid of
> my superpowers.
I assume Gary's pretending to have you killfiled.
Will Dockery
>
> Re your subject header "'The Waste Land' & original notes," which
> notes at
http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
> do you think are the original notes?
Can't you read that for yourself, Cythera?
"Eliot's original notes have been supplemented by additional
notations, which appear in green like so. I have taken several notes
directly from M. H. Abrams et al., eds., The Norton Anthology of
English Literature, 6th ed., vol. 2 (NY: Norton, 1993). I have also
drawn heavily on A Guide to the Selected Poems of T.S. Eliot by B. C.
Southam."
HTH & HAND.
Will Dockery
>Will Dockery wrote:
>
> >> Which half do you think you wrote?
>
> >I wrote the poem below:
>
> >> > Sky Song
>
> >> > Sky songs written with cloud and light,
> >> > and numbers, look that up,
> >> > to a point, I see it and the sound echoes off the brick.
> >> > Queen of darkness, she's out of sight,
> >> > our lady of the earth.
> >> > Tall and hot,
> >> > travel lightly.
> >> > Mispoken, I did not know the details then,
> >> > it's real clear to me now.
> >> > Into the breath,
> >> > ringing down from the sky.
> >> > Poems the sky writes on slick paper,
> >> > wet ink glistens on the leaves and grass.
> >> > She has cartoon red hair,
> >> > he is the man with the finger flow,
> >> > then they become as one on the floor.
> >> > It is clear to me now,
> >> > what am I to say on this strange warm night?
> >> > I am as a statue.
> >> > The moon sings,
> >> > my heart rings with a strange new sadness.
>
> >> > -Will Dockery
>
> Well a whopping 70% of your poem there, Will, was lifted from "The Waste Land."
So, you think PJR was right after all, and Cythera really copped her
poem from T.S. Eliot & not me, Karla?
Will Dockery
<snip for focus & added comment>
> Well a whopping 70% of your poem there, Will, was lifted
It would have had to be from memory, then, during an early appearance
of the legendary Skydog Gypsy back in 1998 (details of which I expect
are archived here somewhere)... a little different from seeing the
post on Usenet and lifting the words out for another poem, as Cythera
has done:
<unsnipped>
> Prose poem: Mirror
>
> Which is in part based upon my poem "Sky Song":
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.poems/msg/7d1d6b491f39590f?hl=en
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
> Date: 1998/06/25
> Subject: Sky Song by Will Dockery
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> PROBLEMS? Please try viewing this with Netscape Navigator.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sky Song
> by Will Dockery
>
> Sky songs written with cloud and light,
> and numbers, look that up,
> to a point, I see it and the sound echoes off the brick.
> Queen of darkness, she's out of sight,
> our lady of the earth.
> Tall and hot,
> travel lightly.
> Mispoken, I did not know the details then,
> it's real clear to me now.
> Into the breath,
> ringing down from the sky.
> Poems the sky writes on slick paper,
> wet ink glistens on the leaves and grass.
> She has cartoon red hair,
> he is the man with the finger flow,
> then they become as one on the floor.
> It is clear to me now,
> what am I to say on this strange warm night?
> I am as a statue.
> The moon sings,
> my heart rings with a strange new sadness.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> -For more poems, typehttp://www.dejanews.com/
> into your browser’s “Location” window. Press your “return” key.
> Click on “Power Search” in the middle of the screen. Next,
> Type in: roller...@earthlink.net in the box that appears.
> Click on “find” (the button to the right of the box).
> -Or search using: rolle...@idt.net
>
> Sky Song is copyright 1998 by Will Dockery
Peter J Ross
Cujo DeSockpuppet <cu...@petitmorte.net> wrote:
> "ggamble" <g...@youbet.net> wrote in
> news:7YadnfQCo5IewPTQ...@giganews.com:
>
>>
>> On 26-Feb-2011, Will Dockery <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >Cythera <cyth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > > You inspired me to reread "The Waste Land,"
>>
>>
>>> > Yeah, she reread it
>>>
>>> "Like fuck she did"?
>>
>> What the fuck is wrong with you?
>
> Let's save bandwidth and ask what's right instead.
Is there a prize if we succeed in thinking of something?
--
PJR :-)
Cujo DeSockpuppet
news:slrnimnrp...@pjr.gotdns.org:
He makes even the most braindead people look smarter than him.
I win.
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
"I am the same intelligent, articulate, amiable, and humble
person anywhere I go:-))" - Ed, proving he's always a dickhead.
Will Dockery
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > You're mistaken, Cythera, I'm not "complaining" about your adapations
> > of my poems,
<misrepresentation snipped>
> http://www.reference.com/browse/Literary+Adaptation
>
> these are the 'characters' shared by both poems
Let's start from the begining, then, here's "Red Lipped Stranger" &
the adaptation you generated from it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBhcN1WK144
>
> > > > > > Red Lipped Stranger
>
> > > > > > Her creep crawls
> > > > > > the narrow stairway
> > > > > > of the Candlelight Motel
> > > > > > to watch for her
> > > > > > from a window.
>
> > > > > > Rethinking
> > > > > > his infatuation
> > > > > > but clinging
> > > > > > to his vision of her
> > > > > > as the red lipped stranger.
>
> > > > > > Downstairs
> > > > > > the desk clerk's cat
> > > > > > slithers through
> > > > > > the service entrance.
>
> > > > > > The vampirate
> > > > > > on a motorbike
> > > > > > passes below
> > > > > > to the westbound bridge
> > > > > > werewolf on her back.
>
> > > > > > Jennifer at riverbend
> > > > > > watches gunboats
> > > > > > smacks her foot
> > > > > > on the bright red clay.
>
> > > > > > Jennifer gives good lyric
> > > > > > she wrote this poem
> > > > > > she's no bum.
>
> > > > > > But she's not there
> > > > > > on the other side
> > > > > > of the greenish wall.
>
> > > > > > Through a three-inch-wall
> > > > > > he hears
> > > > > > bedsprings rattle
> > > > > > rustle of dry-hump,
> > > > > > some guy's mumbles.
>
> > > > > > Hears the fat blonde waitress
> > > > > > whip it in bondage
> > > > > > the sounds
> > > > > > lull him to sleep.
>
> > > > > > The hand of Uncle Sugar
> > > > > > still taking notes
> > > > > > as a new standard bearer
> > > > > > hands out trophies
> > > > > > to the winners.
>
> > > Something seems poetic at the hotel by the river: out on the wide
> > > > verandah,
>
> > "She wears a necktie and a Panama hat"?
>
> > cats watch the dust clutched in the sun like islands, like
>
> > > > sugar, while sounds of the passing Queen lull Jim to sleep.
>
> <snip for focus>
>
> > > I thought the dust in Cythera's poem was obviously a handful, along
> > > with all the other things it might be.
>
> > > I'd be surprised if there were no Eliot references.
>
> > Thank you for this + 'handful': I haven't read or heard "The Waste
> > Land" in so many years
>
> And we know the reference, where your "handful of dust" came from,
> anyway, Cythera:
>
> > > > > > His trillion dollar gash
> > > > > > flakes from the bone
> > > > > > as gravity tears
> > > > > > a pound of dust.
>
> > > > > > Clings to a picture book
> > > > > > the missing part of himself
> > > > > > as if perpetually
> > > > > > anchored
> > > > > > to his invisible erection.
>
> > > > > > At Lucky Seven Lounge
> > > > > > she tries
> > > > > > not to reveal herself
> > > > > > but she stubbornly clutches
> > > > > > her empty shoes.
>
> > > > > > Something
> > > > > > seems missing
> > > > > > in the broad daylight
> > > > > > when the details
> > > > > > are displayed.
>
> > > > > > All that remains are
> > > > > > her flat black hat
> > > > > > her oversized lantern
> > > > > > her broken laptop.
>
> > > > > > No poor boy on the street
> > > > > > can speak of her
> > > > > > or the island on the river.
> > > > > > Or about her return...
> > > > > > her resurrection.
>
> > > > > > -Will Dockery
>
> http://tinyurl.com/fair-use-in-poetry
>
> > > 2. NEW WORKS “REMIXED” FROM OTHER MATERIAL: ALLUSION, PASTICHE,
> > > CENTOS, ERASURE, USE OF “FOUND” MATERIAL, POETRY-GENERATING SOFTWARE
> > > LIMITATIONS:
> > > The poet should provide attribution in a conventionally appropriate
> > > form unless it would be truly impractical or artistically
> > > inappropriate to do so.
> > > PRINCIPLE: Under fair use, a poet may make use of quotations from
> > > existing poetry, literary prose, and non-literary material, if these
> > > quotations are re-presented in poetic forms that add value through
> > > significant imaginative or intellectual transformation, whether direct
> > > or (as in the case of poetry-generating software) indirect.
HTH & HAND, Cythera.
Will Dockery
>Will Dockery wrote;
>
> > Then why don't you just move on and borrow your ideas <snip>
>
> Nothing has been borrowed <snip>
Well, Cythera, whatever term to want to use for your unattributed use
of my "Red Lipped Stranger" poem, we know where you derived your
"Pound Of Dust" poem:
<unsnipped>
HTH & HAND, Cythera.
--
Poetry, music & video visions of Will Dockery & Friends:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WDockery