info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Resurrecting Poetry
15 views
Skip to first unread message
ibsh...@gmail.com
Dec 22, 2017, 9:19:11 AM12/22/17
to
There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.
There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families, relationships and friendships.
Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their feelings and their thoughts.
And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of people in all sorts of ways.
Finally, in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither. There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my translations.
Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France, Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain, which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia, there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America are black.
Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called post-modernism and avant-garde. When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was poetry.
The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people actually want to read.
I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and turned it into poetry. The result was a book (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present in poetry that people actually want to read.
There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families, relationships and friendships.
Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their feelings and their thoughts.
And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of people in all sorts of ways.
Finally, in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither. There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my translations.
Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France, Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain, which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia, there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America are black.
Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called post-modernism and avant-garde. When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was poetry.
The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people actually want to read.
I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and turned it into poetry. The result was a book (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present in poetry that people actually want to read.
Will Dockery
Dec 22, 2017, 1:21:11 PM12/22/17
to
Pendragon wrote in message
news:3b5bf643-e684-47d0...@googlegroups.com...
> There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see
> three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
>
> One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about
> someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families,
> relationships and friendships.
>
In which case, they should reserve it for their personal communications, and
not subject poetry readers to it.
> Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their
> feelings and their thoughts.
>
In which case, they should reserve it for their diaries, and *never* subject
anyone to it.
> And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's
> understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of
> people in all sorts of ways.
>
In which case, they should consider writing a self-help book, and leave
poetry to the poets.
> Finally,
You said "three" reasons.
> in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something
> as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
>
Now you're on the right track.
> In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been
> the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full
> scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I
> have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were
> extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither.
> There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very
> viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my
> translations.
>
Toot! Toot!
> Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental
> illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from
> personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that
> it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
>
Never heard that one. I have read articles which posited that artistic
creativity shares patterns with schizotypal thought processes, but that
doesn't make it a mental illness.
> The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France,
> Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal
> people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with
> personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II
> generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any
> disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he
> would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much
> more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic
> disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in
> business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in
> poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry
> than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
>
I think a poet has to be something of a narcissist in order to think that
his thoughts are worthy of other people's time and, possibly, admiration.
> In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry
> may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In
> epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain,
> which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That
> can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an
> epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing
> his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia,
> there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not
> normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and
> people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that
> people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
>
> Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that
> the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have
> news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that
> do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm
> zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America
> are black.
>
It's a universal "language."
> Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that
> is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes
> realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry
> and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such
> things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the
> demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing
> unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the
> American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
>
It will never happen. Poetry was popular when it was in a rhymed-metered
form that readers could easily memorize and recite. Today's free-verse,
chopped prose, navel-gazings are of no interest to anyone. Until such time
as real poetry is published in the leading academic journals, poetry lovers
will have to remain content quoting such masters as Poe, Shakespeare, Byron,
Shelley, Coleridge, Keats, Tenneyson, Blake, et al.
> I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it
> is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking
> poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry
> self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called
> post-modernism and avant-garde.
>
Bingo!
> When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an
> avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the
> Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of
> anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but
> they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was
> poetry.
>
We've vicious toward everyone regardless of poetic ability.
> The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is
> to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such
> as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and
> avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia
> read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to
> produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people
> actually want to read.
>
Agreed. And, as mentioned above, poetry that lends itself to easy
memorization and recitation.
> I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not
> to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this
> way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her
> work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and
> turned it into poetry. The result was a book
> (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that
> made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
>
Plug.
> I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the
> misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense
> and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
>
> Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present
> in poetry that people actually want to read.
>
Well ... it doesn't hurt to dream.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, a poetry discussion on a poetry group... amazing...
news:3b5bf643-e684-47d0...@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a
> cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my
> self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was
> recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.
>
Toot! Toot!
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a
> cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my
> self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was
> recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.
>
> There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see
> three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.
>
> One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about
> someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families,
> relationships and friendships.
>
not subject poetry readers to it.
> Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their
> feelings and their thoughts.
>
anyone to it.
> And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's
> understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of
> people in all sorts of ways.
>
poetry to the poets.
> Finally,
You said "three" reasons.
> in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something
> as such that adds to the civilization and the world.
>
> In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been
> the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full
> scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I
> have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were
> extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither.
> There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very
> viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my
> translations.
>
> Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental
> illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from
> personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that
> it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.
>
creativity shares patterns with schizotypal thought processes, but that
doesn't make it a mental illness.
> The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France,
> Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal
> people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with
> personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II
> generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any
> disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he
> would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much
> more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic
> disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in
> business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in
> poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry
> than in business, politics, media, academia or law.
>
his thoughts are worthy of other people's time and, possibly, admiration.
> In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry
> may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In
> epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain,
> which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That
> can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an
> epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing
> his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia,
> there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not
> normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and
> people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that
> people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.
>
> Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that
> the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have
> news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that
> do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm
> zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America
> are black.
>
> Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that
> is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes
> realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry
> and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such
> things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the
> demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing
> unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the
> American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.
>
form that readers could easily memorize and recite. Today's free-verse,
chopped prose, navel-gazings are of no interest to anyone. Until such time
as real poetry is published in the leading academic journals, poetry lovers
will have to remain content quoting such masters as Poe, Shakespeare, Byron,
Shelley, Coleridge, Keats, Tenneyson, Blake, et al.
> I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it
> is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking
> poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry
> self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called
> post-modernism and avant-garde.
>
> When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an
> avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the
> Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of
> anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but
> they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was
> poetry.
>
> The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is
> to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such
> as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and
> avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia
> read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to
> produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people
> actually want to read.
>
memorization and recitation.
> I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not
> to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this
> way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her
> work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and
> turned it into poetry. The result was a book
> (https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Julia-Mr-Ilya-Shambat/dp/150234369X) that
> made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.
>
> I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the
> misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense
> and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.
>
> Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present
> in poetry that people actually want to read.
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, a poetry discussion on a poetry group... amazing...
Will Dockery
Oct 29, 2019, 12:55:17 AM10/29/19
to
On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:18:47 AM UTC-5, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological
Ignorant idiots...
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
> as pathological
General-Zod
May 31, 2022, 4:25:18 PM5/31/22
to
W-Dockery
Jun 1, 2022, 9:10:17 AM6/1/22
to
ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>
> as pathological
As poetry drifts in obscurity in these modern times.
>
> There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it
>>
> as pathological
General-Zod
Jun 1, 2022, 2:50:16 PM6/1/22
to
W-Dockery
Jun 2, 2022, 11:15:15 PM6/2/22
to
Rocky Stoneberg
Jun 18, 2022, 5:35:17 PM6/18/22
to
W-Dockery
Jun 21, 2022, 9:20:19 AM6/21/22
to
🙂
Victor H.
Jun 24, 2022, 4:00:20 PM6/24/22
to
W-Dockery
Jul 31, 2022, 12:57:15 AM7/31/22
to
Victor H.
Aug 3, 2022, 8:14:43 PM8/3/22
to
W-Dockery
Aug 25, 2022, 9:20:11 PM8/25/22
to
🙂
W-Dockery
Aug 30, 2022, 12:15:12 PM8/30/22
to
🙂
General-Zod
Sep 10, 2022, 4:37:15 PM9/10/22
to
W.Dockery
Sep 12, 2022, 4:47:33 PM9/12/22
to
And so it goes.
W.Dockery
Sep 14, 2022, 4:44:01 PM9/14/22
to
W-Dockery
Sep 16, 2022, 9:57:04 PM9/16/22
to
Victor H.
Sep 17, 2022, 1:50:29 PM9/17/22
to
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=spoken+word+poetry+
W.Dockery
Oct 9, 2022, 4:45:18 PM10/9/22
to
HTH and HAND.
Victor H.
Oct 11, 2022, 8:57:34 PM10/11/22
to
W.Dockery
Feb 19, 2024, 4:25:27 PMFeb 19
to
:)
0 new messages