Re: Ts' ai Chi'h
david rutkowski
> in article 3abi8eF...@individual.net, david rutkowski at
> david...@yahoo.com wrote on 3/22/05 4:50 PM:
>
>
>>the messenjah wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The petals fall in the fountain,
>>>the orange-colored rose-leaves,
>>>Their ochre clings to the stone.
>>>
>>>Ezra Pound 1916
>>>
>>
>>Pound didn't have the exact nature of Chinese
>>poetry right -- he considered the characters to be
>>little pictures, which some are, but that is as
>>secondary to the poetry as the etymology of the
>>words "fountain" or "ochre" in the poem above --
>>but he has a great feeling for the "matter of
>>factness" and elegance of much Chinese classic
>>poetry. And of course, the quality of his ear
>>cannot be contested (as opposed to Van Gogh).
>>
>>I'm not sure what Pound had in mind for the title.
>>Assuming Chi'h = chi3 = "pond", then Ts'ai could
>>be cai3 = "colorful", which makes sense, since
>>color plays a key role in the poem. Then again, I
>>could be all wet.
>>
>
>
> When the girl in Florida disappeared a month ago, Chuck disappeared from
> here. When the kidnapper/murderer was caught, Chuck reappeared here. Anyone
> can do the simple aftermath. What it means remains for Chief Inspector
> Jacques Clouseau aka Jake McAllister to figure out.
>
How dare you tromp all over my scholarship like so
much doggy dew! Actually, "I would like a rhume"
still cracks me up. And if you haven't seen it
lately, Dr. Strangelove ages like fine wine.
But you have a point. Looking at the pictures of
the the confessed child murderer is like looking
into the soul of Chuck at his worse.
Scary.
Stuart Leichter
david...@yahoo.com wrote on 3/22/05 5:28 PM:
Yes, even Ray Charles must have liked the 'rhume' play. But he must have
wondered what all the laughing was about when Clouseau took a whiff from
Elke Sommer's cold cream jar. (It must have been a cutaway shot; with Elke
onscreen, I never saw Sellers.)
"Remember, Jack? You said, 'Feed me', and I was feeding you, Jack".
>
> But you have a point. Looking at the pictures of
> the the confessed child murderer is like looking
> into the soul of Chuck at his worse.
>
> Scary.
>
I still suspect he's a snitch, trolling for actual molesters. Such trollers
exist, it's part of their RL job. If not, perhaps his absence here happened
because the bloodhounds were ineffectual. Otherwise, it's more than likely
he was a suspect himself and knew it. McAllister can find out.
Stuart Leichter
Peter J Ross
> the messenjah wrote:
>
>> The petals fall in the fountain,
>> the orange-colored rose-leaves,
>> Their ochre clings to the stone.
>>
>> Ezra Pound 1916
>>
>
> Pound didn't have the exact nature of Chinese
> poetry right -- he considered the characters to be
> little pictures, which some are, but that is as
> secondary to the poetry as the etymology of the
> words "fountain" or "ochre" in the poem above --
> but he has a great feeling for the "matter of
> factness" and elegance of much Chinese classic
> poetry. And of course, the quality of his ear
> cannot be contested (as opposed to Van Gogh).
>
> I'm not sure what Pound had in mind for the title.
> Assuming Chi'h = chi3 = "pond", then Ts'ai could
> be cai3 = "colorful", which makes sense, since
> color plays a key role in the poem. Then again, I
> could be all wet.
THE CITY OF CHOAN
-----------------
The phoenix are at play on their terrace.
The phoenix are gone, the river flows on alone.
Flowers and grass
Cover over the dark path
where lay the dynastic house of the Go.
The bright cloths and bright caps of Shin
Are now the base of old hills.
The Three Mountains fall through the far heaven,
The isle of White Heron
splits the two streams apart.
Now the high clouds cover the sun
And I can not see Choan afar
And I am sad.
-- Ezra Pound
PJ "wow!" R :-)
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the messenjah
Peter J Ross
Silly chuckles. For once, you forgot to snip the "Ezra Pound 1916"
part.
http://www.insurgent.org/~kook-faq/chuck/plagiarism.html
PJR :-)
david rutkowski
Pound didn't have the exact nature of Chinese
the messenjah
You're fucking sick.
the messenjah
You know, I can't believe you'd use the murder and sexual battery of
nine year old Jessica Lunsford to draw attention to yourself, and to
insult me. What kind of a fucking creep are you anyway?
ggamble
<david...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> When the girl in Florida disappeared a month ago, Chuck disappeared from
>> here. When the kidnapper/murderer was caught, Chuck reappeared here. Anyone
>> can do the simple aftermath. What it means remains for Chief Inspector
>> Jacques Clouseau aka Jake McAllister to figure out.
>>
>
>But you have a point. Looking at the pictures of
>the the confessed child murderer is like looking
>into the soul of Chuck at his worse.
>
>Scary.
Not only that, the scumbag lived in Dockery's home town.
the messenjah
Ts'ai Chi'h, or Ts'ao Chih is the name of a Chinese poet who lived from
192-232, and Pound's using it as the title of his poem perhaps
indicates that in it he is adopting the mode of Ts'ao Chih's
"five-character poems", or even translating one of them.
ggamble
<theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote:
>Ts'ai Chi'h, or Ts'ao Chih is the name of a Chinese poet who lived from
>192-232, and Pound's using it as the title of his poem perhaps
>indicates that in it he is adopting the mode of Ts'ao Chih's
>"five-character poems", or even translating one of them.
I wonder what chuckles gets when he types *quantum physics* into the
Google search box?
the messenjah
The same thing anyone else would get if they typed in *quantum physics*
into the Google search box, dumbass.
Peter J Ross
> I wonder what chuckles gets when he types *quantum physics* into the
> Google search box?
A headache.
Peter J Ross
> Ts'ai Chi'h, or Ts'ao Chih is the name of a Chinese poet who lived from
> 192-232, and Pound's using it as the title of his poem perhaps
> indicates that in it he is adopting the mode of Ts'ao Chih's
> "five-character poems", or even translating one of them.
When did you learn to use the possessive case with a gerund, chuckles?
Just curious.
the messenjah
Peter J Ross wrote:
> On Wednesday 23 March 2005, the messenjah wrote in rec.arts.poems:
>
> > Ts'ai Chi'h, or Ts'ao Chih is the name of a Chinese poet who lived
from
> > 192-232, and Pound's using it as the title of his poem perhaps
> > indicates that in it he is adopting the mode of Ts'ao Chih's
> > "five-character poems", or even translating one of them.
>
> When did you learn to use the possessive case with a gerund,
chuckles?
>
> Just curious.
LOL!!! Jeez...
Peter J Ross
>
>
> Peter J Ross wrote:
>> On Wednesday 23 March 2005, the messenjah wrote in rec.arts.poems:
>>
>> > Ts'ai Chi'h, or Ts'ao Chih is the name of a Chinese poet who lived
> from
>> > 192-232, and Pound's using it as the title of his poem perhaps
>> > indicates that in it he is adopting the mode of Ts'ao Chih's
>> > "five-character poems", or even translating one of them.
>>
>> When did you learn to use the possessive case with a gerund,
> chuckles?
>>
>> Just curious.
>
> LOL!!! Jeez...
Was it "possessive case" or "gerund" that made your head nearly
explode, chuckles?
I hope that isn't too hard a question for an expert on Chinese poetry
and Modernism to answer.
Diana
I agree to the wow. I like Pound's simple style in this poem, though it
seems more complicated on subsequent reads.
Does it come from the China Cantos? I couldn't find the poem online
when I looked. (except for a page that had it in Italian and it didn't
give me the source.)
Thanks for posting it. I'd never read any Pound before.
I also didn't know that he stayed at a stone cottage with Yeats in
Sussex. Poet connections are fascinating to me. I'm wondering if the
cottage is still there. I couldn't find any pictures. Do any of ya'll
UK RAP poets (or anyone) know?
david rutkowski
a milllion chance to guess a title from a
transliteration, so I guess I'll stay away from
the lottery today). In the original publication of
the poem, Pound included a footnote in which he
told the title referred to the Late Han poet,
Cao2Zhi2. The first poem of Cao2Zhi2's I came
across is quite interesting, a little four liner
about the practice of burning been stalks in order
to cook the beans. He personifies the beans as
weeping in the cauldron, but ends saying, "nothing
to be upset about, it is the nature of things to
cook (destroy) each other. His first name "Zhi2",
means plant, and "Cao2" seems to be derived from
the argurments at a court proceeding. What's
interesting is that his father and brother were
also well-known poets -- kind of like a musical
family. Jame's Wright's son is the only modern
poet I know following in his dad's footsteps.
Peter J Ross
> Jame's Wright's son is the only modern
> poet I know following in his dad's footsteps.
John Fuller, son of Roy
Frieda Hughes, daughter of Ted and Sylvia
PJR :-)
Peter J Ross
> Peter J Ross wrote:
>>
>> THE CITY OF CHOAN
[...]
> Does it come from the China Cantos? I couldn't find the poem online
> when I looked. (except for a page that had it in Italian and it didn't
> give me the source.)
It's the fourth of "Four Poems of Departure", from _Cathay_. The other
three are translations, but this one seems not to be.
PJR :-)
Diana
Peter J Ross wrote:
> On Thursday 24 March 2005, Diana wrote in rec.arts.poems:
>
> > Peter J Ross wrote:
> >>
> >> THE CITY OF CHOAN
>
> [...]
>
> > Does it come from the China Cantos? I couldn't find the poem online
> > when I looked. (except for a page that had it in Italian and it
didn't
> > give me the source.)
>
> It's the fourth of "Four Poems of Departure", from _Cathay_. The
other
> three are translations, but this one seems not to be.
Quick reply: Thanks. Now I know why I was reading Japanese into it.
That'll teach me to second guess myself. And to conduct a better
search.
"Go" reminded me of a Japanese word, but "Choan" didn't.
Then again, I know next to nothing about all of this.
Here's about all I could come up with:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0403/is_n3_v39/ai_14867729
"Four poems of Departure"... I read that somewhere. The Italian site
had four cantos (?) I apologize for my lack of coherance. Why is there
so little information on all of this?
j.wa...@bathspa.ac.uk
Can you remember by any chance where you saw that footnote? I've checked the Glebe & the 1914 New York version of Des Imagistes, plus Lustra & the 1914 Poetry & Drama reprint, but I don't see anything. Did it appear somewhere earlier?
(BTW on poets spawning poets, cf. Ian Hamilton Finlay)