Marek the wanna-be pick-up artist
an29...@anon.penet.fi
ever notice how MAREK (the freak) only replies to posts that he suspects to
be from FEMALES?
I think he's using this newsgroup to try to pick-up on unwitting chippies,
and all of you who respond to him are feeding the MONSTER.
MAREK (the freak) should be IGNORED, shut-out, cast aside, shunned, perhaps
even crucified...
his kind of SLEAZE is uncalled for, unwelcome and COWARDLY.
he practically slobbered over me via email, and sent nothing but suggestive,
sexually explicit messages...
I have to post this annonymously, because I'm AFRAID of his responses and
endless emails.
please do what you can to IGNORE MAREK (the freak)...he's caused me nothing
but pain and bother.
MAREK (the freak) - please leave the women of RAP alone!
stop stalking and harrasing us!
BE A MAN (if you can) and deal with people on a more HUMAN basis (if you can...)
I personally, will NEVER respond to, or even read another MAREK (the freak)
post.
I urge all females on RAP to do the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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If you reply to this message, your message WILL be *automatically* anonymized
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David Smalley
Good for you! I've been away for awhile, but strongly remember marek's
stench.
Dave Smalley
friend of Sarah
Marek Lugowski
I forwarded the posting below to the ad...@anon.penet.fi per their request.
Parenthetically, Patterson and David Mitchell might be nonplussed to be
seen as slobbered over and seduced as female.
I will never apologize for making friends through poetry. I don't stalk.
-- Marek
<an29...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>
>ever notice how MAREK (the freak) only replies to posts that he suspects to
>be from FEMALES?
>
>I think he's using this newsgroup to try to pick-up on unwitting chippies,
>and all of you who respond to him are feeding the MONSTER.
>
>MAREK (the freak) should be IGNORED, shut-out, cast aside, shunned, perhaps
>even crucified...
>his kind of SLEAZE is uncalled for, unwelcome and COWARDLY.
>
>he practically slobbered over me via email, and sent nothing but suggestive,
>sexually explicit messages...
>I have to post this annonymously, because I'm AFRAID of his responses and
>endless emails.
>
>please do what you can to IGNORE MAREK (the freak)...he's caused me nothing
>but pain and bother.
>
>MAREK (the freak) - please leave the women of RAP alone!
>stop stalking and harrasing us!
>BE A MAN (if you can) and deal with people on a more HUMAN basis (if you can...)
>
>I personally, will NEVER respond to, or even read another MAREK (the freak)
>post.
>I urge all females on RAP to do the same.
>
Marek Lugowski
>You're a lech, Marek. You're not fooling anybody...
Sigh. I just knew I would confuse the everybody with my posts.
Once again:
1. I am Marek -- not Lech.
2. Lech is my Printer.
3. Mere is not Marek -- Mere is not pronounced MAHR(ek).
4. Marek is not Mere (though the IDEA sounds fantastic).
=========================================================
Therefore, it necessarily follows from the above that
Mere is a lech.
=========================================================
I hope this lays everything to rest, including those who never get
laid, like Brendan...
Now, you, Brendan Coffee, are an imposter: back when you were pretending
to be offended and all-civilized about me in that note last week. And
here you are making personal remareks from the sideliness... What has
that got to do with your gentility or poetry?
For, truly, you are a juvenile talentless hopeless mental midget,
i.e. a normal Sunday TV watching Merkin, and This Week's Designated
Asshole at Your Internet Service Provider. I have a mind to send this
post to your "general" newsgroup so that you get some friendly ribbing,
but... It's Sunday, and Beneficence-Black is my fall color...
Good night, Brendan... Don't fuck with me or I will comment on your poems.
-- Marek
Brendan Coffey
Marek Lugowski
which you omit, was: "hopefully of overeating at macdonalds". The state
rests its case. Besides, you will die anyway, later or sooner, so you should
prepare. Make a will, buy a plot, commission a tree planting.... Since we
know you can't write worth a dime.
And if you are prepared to debate that you won't ever die, we have
a nice van waiting for you...
-- Marek
The mjp-exposer on this here Mountain.
P.s. Listen, moron. I cannot be bothered with ya no more.
You see, there's all this con leche stuff for me to drink up.
In article <4469pg$c...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mjp <mj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>ma...@MCS.COM (Marek Lugowski) wrote:
>>In article <4463hp$b...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mjp <mj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>ma...@MCS.COM (Marek Lugowski) wrote:
>>>> Brendan Coffey <bco...@connix.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>You're a lech, Marek. You're not fooling anybody...
>>>>
>>>------cut patented lugowski senseless blather------
>>>>
>>>>Good night, Brendan... Don't fuck with me or I will comment on your poems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Marek
>>>
>>>i imagine brendan is frightened beyond words at the thought of lugowski
>>>"commenting" on his poems...kind of an empty threat though, since no one
>>>but lugowski gives any credence to his self-referential, worthless
>>>opinions.
>>>mjp
>>
>>My my... Elementary diction analysis -- in conjunction with mjp's
>>unsolicited and meanacing mail
>
>
> you're confused again lugowski. it was your mail to me on 9/27
> that said, "prepare to die".
> that's about as menacing as it gets. real world menacing, and
> legally actionable.
>
> if you consider my opinions of your sleazy behavior objectionable,
> well, they're just my opinions (and observations).
> they've never been threatening, and i'm as entitled to them as you
> are to your worthlessly egotistical opinions. you're sadly mistaken
> if you think i'm the only one here who finds you a bore and a creep.
>
> mjp
>
>
>>insanely vowing to "expose" and
>>"hinder" my "leching" activities on rap (duly reported to netcom; they
>>acked it and suggested a remedy, too) -- seems to suggests a great
>>deal of resemblance of the above with the AnonNgBomber assassin of my
>>character missive from anon.pent.fi (apparently made in countervention
>>of anon.pent.fi policies of use). As does the forged mail making-believe
>>I wrote Bob E.'s plea. Et cetera... The evidence is mounting. Someone's
>>ass is in a sling and awaiting escape velocity... Oh flea, bite me.
>>
>>There is no such thing as traceless assholity on the net. Esp. by idiots
>>with ix.netcom.com surfing gear...
>>
>> -- Marek
>> The Crime Lab on this here Mountain...
>>
>>
>
>
Tim Patterson
: My my... Elementary diction analysis -- in conjunction with mjp's
: unsolicited and meanacing mail insanely vowing to "expose" and
: "hinder" my "leching" activities on rap (duly reported to netcom; they
: acked it and suggested a remedy, too)
My...my...such activity from one who only a few days ago was wailing
out his little heart from the fear that _his_ activities might find
their way back to his superiors at the Uni and "threaten his livelihood".
It must be difficult to have two faces. How do you ever know which
way you are facing?
Shooshie
this newsgroup would vanish, and you could cease your paranoia (currently
justified) that someone is going to expose you to people you'd rather not
be exposed to. It's really that easy. Just control yourself. What does it
take? My Internet provider laughed at the letter you sent them. You're not
going to get anywhere. I have 450K of files you've written, or that others
have posted in response to you, which, frankly, I'd be really concerned
that the "real world" would ever read if I were you. Don't think I'm the
only one who has started saving this stuff - just in case it becomes
necessary. This is a public forum. You posted them. How public do you want
them to be? What happens when one of the poets you obscenely trash turns
out to be an 11 year old kid?
I'm not harrassing you. I'm telling you again that you are sooner or later
going to have to stop this behavior or suffer the consequences of your own
foolishness. This isn't a conspiracy, lynch mob, or even an organized
effort. Everyone is just really tired of your behavior. Do you learn?
You're a smart guy. You can do it. Try love for a change. I know the fit
is going to feel awkward at first, but it gets better as you break it in.
You're not on a mountain - this here or otherwise. You're in a pit. Of
course, I realize my biggest error is probably in believing that you'd
want to be out of the pit. One can hope; I hope you find your way out
before someone loses their tolerance of you and exposes you to the
non-internet world. Hate isn't worth it. Love is. Is that a difficult
concept? I'm sure that a number of people would be genuinely willing to
help you figure it out. Lower the wall and let someone in - on mutual
terms, not just yours. Why should I care? I don't need a reason. Just
trust me; I do care. But not enough to take even another ounce of your
abusive behavior. Are you even aware yet of what you are doing? It's
easily changed. You have a few people here who remain loyal friends. You
know who they are. Seek their help, and then don't doublecross them. Learn
friendship and it will spread throughout the group as you begin to give
rather than take.
Shooshie
In article <4469pg$c...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mjp <mj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
|> ma...@MCS.COM (Marek Lugowski) wrote:
|> >In article <4463hp$b...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mjp
<mj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
|> >>ma...@MCS.COM (Marek Lugowski) wrote:
|> >>> Brendan Coffey <bco...@connix.com>:
|> >>>
|> >>>>You're a lech, Marek. You're not fooling anybody...
|> >>>
|> >>------cut patented lugowski senseless blather------
|> >>>
|> >>>Good night, Brendan... Don't fuck with me or I will comment on your
poems.
|> >>>
|> >>>
|> >>> -- Marek
|> >>
|> >>i imagine brendan is frightened beyond words at the thought of lugowski
|> >>"commenting" on his poems...kind of an empty threat though, since no one
|> >>but lugowski gives any credence to his self-referential, worthless
|> >>opinions.
|> >>mjp
|> >
|> >My my... Elementary diction analysis -- in conjunction with mjp's
|> >unsolicited and meanacing mail
|>
|>
|> you're confused again lugowski. it was your mail to me on 9/27
|> that said, "prepare to die".
|> that's about as menacing as it gets. real world menacing, and
|> legally actionable.
|>
|> if you consider my opinions of your sleazy behavior objectionable,
|> well, they're just my opinions (and observations).
|> they've never been threatening, and i'm as entitled to them as you
|> are to your worthlessly egotistical opinions. you're sadly mistaken
|> if you think i'm the only one here who finds you a bore and a creep.
|>
|> mjp
|>
|>
|> >insanely vowing to "expose" and
|> >"hinder" my "leching" activities on rap (duly reported to netcom; they
Gus Alonso
This post is not intended to defend Marek, for the truth is
that I am not sure whether he deserves defense or more angry berating.
I have not been participating in this newsgroup for long enough.
However, I have been stopping by here every once in a while to see
what's going on. While Marek's comments on other people's poetry (and
other things) are often caustic, I have never seen him be outrightly
rude or lewd, unless he had been already instigated to do so.
What's more, the only reason that people would psost their
poetry here, especially saying C&C welcome, is if they are confident
enough or brave enough or stupid enough to try it. In such a public
forum, you have to expect criticism, harsh criticism. And let's
be honest - everyone wants it anyway. Tell me, all of you who are
bitching about Marek, that you wouldn't rather have him (as well
as other people) criticising your poetry than just
simply ignoring it.
MAREK-- Perhaps you can best answer this question for me. Is your
"bad behavior" within this newsgroup grounds for some type of
disciplinary or legal action? I thought you had to engage in
terribly crude behavior for this to happen! Please let me know -
seriously curious...
----Maria A. Weiss
a.k.a. the not so very gus alonso
mjp
mjp
elena k. yearling
i realize i'm making a nuisance of myself with these poorly written posts
written during my breaks :) but whats
sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose. just as we can not stand by
lugowski's bullshit, neither can we stand by anothers anonymous
libel/slander.
i realize it is foolish to even reply to this sort of post, esp. if
these "charges" were put up in "fun", in "jest" -- so be it. however,
as much as some of mr. lugowski's past actions may...uhm.."gall" me,
i do not wish to see anyone torn down by false accusations (the
mike tyson appeal).
************************************************************************
In article <121305Z...@anon.penet.fi>, <an29...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>ever notice how MAREK (the freak) only replies to posts that he suspects to
>be from FEMALES?
no.
>MAREK (the freak) should be IGNORED, shut-out, cast aside, shunned, perhaps
>even crucified...
>his kind of SLEAZE is uncalled for, unwelcome and COWARDLY.
no. castigated when he goes over the line, yes, but nothing more.
mr. lugowski is (so far) harmless. this
type of posting, however, without any evidence brought forth to back it
up, without any sincere feeling to it except an undescribable (sp?) wish
to harm with malice is what is uncalled for, unwelcome and
cowardly.
>he practically slobbered over me via email, and sent nothing but suggestive,
>sexually explicit messages...
>I have to post this annonymously, because I'm AFRAID of his responses and
>endless emails.
bullshit. :)
you sound like a man with an agenda, sweetie.
anyone who can post this using the anon.penet.fi can find and speak to
the appropriate postmaster/real world authority regarding a matter
like this.
if its true, be a woman about it. i will apologize to you for thinking
you a man with a problem, but not for disliking the manner in which you
chose to make the charges.
if its slander, screw yourself. you owe mr. lugowski and the rest of
r.a.p. a serious apology -- the women for impersonation in order to garner
sympathy for the cowardly use of charges of a serious crime, the men for
not being a man and coming forward with whatever beef you have with mr.
lugowski like a man and settling it.
just my deuce and a quarter about it,
larrissa
Shooshie
really do anyone any kind of good. It could have been composed by anyone
with an agenda. I don't think you necessarily "owe" anyone anything, but I
don't believe you need to fear reprisal for anything which is true.
Anonymous posting may have its place - I don't know, I've never used it -
but making serious accusations toward someone through a remailer is just a
waste of space. If you have something to say, I recommend that you just
tell your story as you see it - from your own address. Otherwise, this is
indeed libelous.
Shooshie
In article <4472tg$3...@triton.unm.edu>, inc...@unm.edu (elena k.
yearling) wrote:
|> dear r.a.p.'ers:
|>
|> i realize i'm making a nuisance of myself with these poorly written posts
|> written during my breaks :) but whats
|> sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose. just as we can not stand by
|> lugowski's bullshit, neither can we stand by anothers anonymous
|> libel/slander.
|>
|> i realize it is foolish to even reply to this sort of post, esp. if
|> these "charges" were put up in "fun", in "jest" -- so be it. however,
|> as much as some of mr. lugowski's past actions may...uhm.."gall" me,
|> i do not wish to see anyone torn down by false accusations (the
|> mike tyson appeal).
|>
|> ************************************************************************
|> In article <121305Z...@anon.penet.fi>, <an29...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
|>
|> >ever notice how MAREK (the freak) only replies to posts that he suspects to
|> >be from FEMALES?
|>
|> no.
|>
|> >MAREK (the freak) should be IGNORED, shut-out, cast aside, shunned, perhaps
|> >even crucified...
|> >his kind of SLEAZE is uncalled for, unwelcome and COWARDLY.
[cut]
Brendan Coffey
You're correct. Apparently, you HAVEN'T been reading this group long
enough. Before jumping to Marek's defense, lurk for a bit. Watch him
rip apart at the seams those who are here only for c&c on their work and
perhaps a bit of relevant philosophical discourse. But that's just my
own experience. Yours may differ. Marek does, after all, have friends
on the group.
And when you say that those who post "have to expect criticism, harsh
criticism," and that "everyone wants it anyway," what everyone are you
referring to? I personally don't like having my ability and validity as
a poet debunked by someone who hasn't READ anything I've written, and
whose stuff doesn't seem to be earth-shattering, at that! But I don't
question his worth as a poet. He's a smart man, and his work is
probably just not written in a mode of thought that I relate to.
And finally, to Shooshie: You are a wise man, wise beyond your
years--however many they are. But will Marek learn? Only time will
tell.
Brendan Coffey
First of all, I'm not sure how you're formulating your opinions about my
love life (or lack thereof) from halfway across the country, but if you
feel the need to question my own social prowess in the interest of
inflating your own opinion of YOURS, then go sick. No skin off my
teeth... :-)
Moving along to your next point, I was merely expressing my amusement at
the frequency at which female denizens of the group complain about your
unsolicited advances and general social cockiness. Seems to me like too
much of a pattern to be coincidental, don't you think?
For your files, I was my ISP's first full time employee, worked for them
for better than a year, and between my experience there and as an
engineering major in college know more about the internet and netiquette
than I entertain HOPES that you might ever learn.
And as to your conclusion, Marek, well... I'll fuck with you all I
want, boy. It amuseth me. And isn't this a newsgroup for personal
expression after all?
Sleep tight, kiddo.
(*how old are you, by the way? On a purely informational basis...*)
Brendan Coffey
Brendan Coffey
:way you are facing?
..and it must take forever to shave.
mjp
>Yer a dishonest moron. The next sentence, which context requires, and
>which you omit, was: "hopefully of overeating at macdonalds". The state
>rests its case. Besides, you will die anyway, later or sooner, so you should
>prepare. Make a will, buy a plot, commission a tree planting.... Since we
>know you can't write worth a dime.
>
>And if you are prepared to debate that you won't ever die, we have
>a nice van waiting for you...
>
> -- Marek
> The mjp-exposer on this here Mountain.
>
>P.s. Listen, moron. I cannot be bothered with ya no more.
> You see, there's all this con leche stuff for me to drink up.
jeez...i feel so..."exposed"...
in reality, i feel tired. tired and bored.
i won't get into your trollish "can't write worth a dime" statement.
i won't respond to the "moron" tag.
i'll just offer my final words on the whole lugowski issue...
mr.(?) lugowski, you are obviously a disturbed individual.
i'd pity you if you weren't so repulsive. as it is i can only withdraw
from this ugly, neverending name-calling and pissing in the wind.
it's pointless.
it's boring.
and no one has _proved_ anything.
one can only imagine what a worthwhile and constructive place this could
be without the self-appointed "jesus of RAP" waiting to pounce on
selected posts, individuals and ideas.
i give up.
and luggo, you can take that however you want to. count it as a victory
in your petty little book of anger, or see it for what it is: another
contributor leaving because of your egomaniacal bullshit.
funny thing is, i imagine if you and i got together at a table somewhere,
with a bottle of vodka and our notebooks, we might actually find some
common ground. but somehow i don't see that happening. you don't seem to
be willing to leave a place at that table for anyone but yourself. pity.
so get out your thesaurus and write one of your unintelligible, angry
responses...i won't be around to read it.
mjp
oleander p. carbondale
In article <447jdt$s...@comet.connix.com>,
Brendan Coffey <bco...@connix.com> wrote:
>Maria:
>
> You're correct. Apparently, you HAVEN'T been reading this group long
>enough. Before jumping to Marek's defense, lurk for a bit. Watch him
<snips snipped out>
> And when you say that those who post "have to expect criticism, harsh
>criticism," and that "everyone wants it anyway," what everyone are you
>referring to?
and every woman wishes to be raped, maria .... :) i agree with your point,
brendan. as for the rest of y'all, flame me for it later for this analogy
but:
poetry is like sex.
when you start out, hey its cool! its fun! you may not know what the
hell you're doing, but you've seen enough and read enough to get a gist
for the motions and emotions involved -- and dammit, it does feel so
good to do....
criticism...well...it should be like the more experienced helping
out the lesser experienced. the perfect lover/critic is someone who
guides the loved/critiqued to a better understanding of the craft. The
perfect lover/critic does not sneer derisively at the loved/critiqued's
attempts, flaunting their own expertise and past conquests (published
works?) like bored city madams with poor country boys. The purpose
in critiquing is not to show one's skills off or to show someone up.
The purpose is to help the loved/critiqued improve to where they too
can give someone joy and pleasure with their craft.
the ideal lover/critic does not dwell on and distend the loved/critiqued's
weaknesses out of proportion while inflating their own -- one might
as well brag in bed while ignoring your love/boast of being the greatest
poet -- but helps them search for ways to turn those "weaknesses" into
strengths, while improving those strengths that may or may not be
obvious: say, helping the poor epic writer with a talent for fantastic
(though fleeting) imagery into a snazzy haiku-ist...etc. etc.
the ideal lover/critic praises when it is deserved, gently explains how
and where one can improve when it is warranted, and is contemptuous of,
insulting of, and sarcastic towards the loved/critiqued NEVER. Critiquing
is not a game played by equals (for one is basically taking the submissive
position when asking to be critiqued), but should be engaged in as a way of
bettering/making equals of the loved/critiqued -- for when a critic does it
right, in critiquing they can find ways to improve their own craft, no?
and all is done (or should be done) with something akin to love.
i know this analogy has been explained better before, so sue me -- i'm
a virgin (newbie) at this. You may take this as gospel or patented bullshit,
but i hope you take something from this little spiel. No, Maria,
one should never have to expect harshness. FRANKNESS yes, but harshness
only leaves a bad taste upon one's palate. It serves no purpose, and
can make an enemy of one who would have once been a valued friend..
as has been pointed out here so very many times. Frankness, on the other
hand, while perhaps settleing in the stomach badly for a bit, when paired
with good observation nof what can be helped and what is right with what
is written, will better help the young poet along to doing well in
and enjoying a fine hobby.
comradery should be the key word, not combat.
> I personally don't like having my ability and validity as
>a poet debunked by someone who hasn't READ anything I've written, and
>whose stuff doesn't seem to be earth-shattering, at that! But I don't
>question his worth as a poet. He's a smart man, and his work is
>probably just not written in a mode of thought that I relate to.
perhaps...i think, however, that if mr. lugowski were not as combative
towards yall males on this ng, you'd find yourself reading his work in a
more positive light. Unfortunately, his vindictiveness towards yall
is killing any way of reading his work in a positive light -- that,
and the "i am odin/loki on this here molehill" masturbatory bullshit.
> And finally, to Shooshie: You are a wise man, wise beyond your
>years--however many they are.
yes, shooshie is nice :)
> But will Marek learn? Only time will tell.
oh brendan, he's having as much fun with this as anyone else. if he's
learned anything, its that conflict sells. i too thought we had seen
the beginning of a new r.a.p. era -- those posts of his after shooshie's
uberflame were downright (dare i say it?) nice, informative,
constructive....glimpses of the man therese defended and glowed on
and on about to tim. but i too wondered how long this pax lugowski
was gonna last.
alas, it didnt. he did not have to be that nasty to you (and several
other men, lately) monday. i feel he owes you a very public apology.
esp. since he did not refute the charges of lechery (or anything else)
in any way, but instead chose to sidestep the issue by trying to
dis you, your work, and your manhood.
anyway...you take care, man :) perhaps i'll talk to you again, one
of these days (fiance barring)
peace,
ann
Gus Alonso
"AND EVERY WOMAN WANTS TO BE RAPED???" What kind of analogy is
that to my comment that people post poetry here because they
want to have it commented uponn? I'm sorry, but people don't
post their poetry here because they want it ignored. If that was
that case, then they would keep it to themselves, in a little
notebook in their little homes and hearts, far away from the public
eye. Do you really believe that, when someone says "C & C Welcome"
that they don't really mean it? So yes means no and no means
yes - is THAT what you're getting at? And every woman wants to
be raped, right?
I agree that people needn't be so blatantly rude in their criticisms of
others' work, but sometimes the truth hurts. Besides, Marek's
jsut one person. Does his opinion really mean that much to
people that they can't get past a nasty comment from him?
I'm not coming here trying to make enemies. I guess I just don't
understand exactly what the big deal's about. People complain,
but then spend a decent chunk of their time in correspondences
to or about Marek. Perhaps you can explain this to me. Wouldn't
it be simpler, and much more effective, to merely ignore the
"problem" (if you see it as that)? Just a suggestion...
-Maria
Tim Patterson
: [a long, lovely, celebrated poem follows]
Not a flame, Marek, but just a personal observation. Why not let
the poem speak for itself rather than heap self-praise upon
it? For me at least, this puts me in the wrong frame of mind
from the start. If the poem is good, let your reader recognise
it as such. And remember that size isn't everything :)
Tim
Marek Lugowski
Okay. Let me answer this seriously. 1) Because the poem is all that,
and I am not saying anythign that is unture. It has been that way
ever since its original appearance on the *much* more intimate Usenet
of 1990, has been celebrated, causing delight, and in some circles,
consternation and hostility in the various Muslim communities alone,
never mind the world at large. A Palestinian woman acquaintance of
mine is particularly fond of it, as are some old-time rappers. I will
let them speak for themselves, but you may be surprised at who likes
this poem. Unless, of course, they no longer do. Reversing one's
judgment of merit based on new or continuing personal conflicts is
standard around here. 2) Becaue I knew it would draw your attention
and annoy you and others who can't stand me. I really do think you
are behaving and thinking in a petty frame of mind, and it causes me a
fair amount of pleasure to demonstrate it via indirect means such as
feigning contrition or posting ludicrous boasts.
Is this lucid enough?
-- Marek
P.s. The length of this poem reflects the source material and the poem's
layout. I don't think it is taxing. I hope you agree, but I do not
care if you do not agree. I really don't need reassurance or taking
down a notch, not any more than Anne Sexton ever did. Comprende?
Tim Patterson
: Tim Patterson <patt...@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu>:
: >Marek Lugowski (ma...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: >: [a long, lovely, celebrated poem follows]
: >
: >
: >Not a flame, Marek, but just a personal observation. Why not let
: >the poem speak for itself rather than heap self-praise upon
: >it? For me at least, this puts me in the wrong frame of mind
: >from the start. If the poem is good, let your reader recognise
: >it as such. And remember that size isn't everything :)
: >
: > Tim
: Okay. Let me answer this seriously. 1) Because the poem is all that,
: and I am not saying anythign that is unture.
[some comments snipped]
Well, the poem could be called long I guess, as it is longer than some,
although not as long as others. Celebrated is rather a grand word that
I would normally reserve for soemthing more widely known, although I
won't dispute that people may have indeed enjoyed the poem, and I would
expect to see compliments about it here too. Lovely I would disagree with.
Exactly what is "lovely" about the poem? That doesn't mean the poem can't
be good, but its tone and subject matter aren't really "lovely".
But my point is that even if the above are all true, they aren't needed.
You seem to be frightened to let the poem out by itself. It's stood
on its own merits once, so let it do so again. Why alienate your audience
by being condescending to them?
: 2) Becaue I knew it would draw your attention
: and annoy you and others who can't stand me.
: I really do think you
: are behaving and thinking in a petty frame of mind, and it causes me a
: fair amount of pleasure to demonstrate it via indirect means such as
: feigning contrition or posting ludicrous boasts.
Well, I have yet to see any contrition from you, feigned or otherwise,
and I already know how ludicrous your boasts are. Nothing annoying
there. As for petty behaviour, well your point above illustrates
nicely who is being petty. I do my best to read EVERY poem that
is posted to rap - even if I can only skim over some. That includes
your poems, so there really is no need to attempt to draw my
attention to it.
: P.s. The length of this poem reflects the source material and the poem's
: layout. I don't think it is taxing. I hope you agree, but I do not
: care if you do not agree.
Oh, I agree that longer poems are often neccessary to encompass the
whole of a particularly thorny issue. I don't think that boasting about
the length of the poem is any idnication of how good it is, though.
: I really don't need reassurance or taking
: down a notch, not any more than Anne Sexton ever did. Comprende?
You can inflate your ego as large as you like for all I care.
I only object when you do it at another's expense.
Tim
P.S. The poem was interesting - not lovely - but interesting.
Tim Patterson
: "AND EVERY WOMAN WANTS TO BE RAPED???" What kind of analogy is
: that to my comment that people post poetry here because they
: want to have it commented uponn? I'm sorry, but people don't
: post their poetry here because they want it ignored. If that was
: that case, then they would keep it to themselves, in a little
: notebook in their little homes and hearts, far away from the public
: eye. Do you really believe that, when someone says "C & C Welcome"
: that they don't really mean it? So yes means no and no means
: yes - is THAT what you're getting at? And every woman wants to
: be raped, right?
I don't think that was the point. People post their poems here and ask
for comments and criticisms. They don't ask for snide, rude abuse about
them. They ask for helpful advice. They don't want their poems
vandalised.
When a woman dresses up to go out, she does it to attract admiring
glances (and perhaps a nice man :), not to ask to be raped.
I think that was all that was being said.
Tim
Marek Lugowski
the not the Very Gus Alonso <dol...@netrunner.net>:
No it wouldn't be simpler. They cannot bring themselves to ignoring
me. Maria, you come with a clear, lucid heart. But the people you
describe have poisoned, hateful, bruised, chomping at the bit ones.
At least in part... There are other people who are fine hearts and
laugh merrily at this.
Look at the silly pointed FAQs they are drawing up like genital wart
outbreaks -- in this land of no FAQ. These people -- are tey turning
into fascist pigs unwittingly, in throes of self-rightiousness,
affecting injury? They are getting stewed in heavy syrrup, like peach
halves. I prefer my peaches off a tree. My folks have peach trees in
the back yard. What about you, Maria?
The injury, if any, is pure insolence. Are they this fragile? Or is
the insolence so well aimed and as to be insufferable?
Look at their appalling character assassinations. They are dying for
confrontations. Not avoiding them. Then mostly can't write worth
jack, and they speak exactly one language -- American, usually without any
training in Letters or Science -- with some notable exceptions, and even
there, their writing is becoming poisoned with pointned digs. They lie in
personal matters and public. They send personal mail as friends to wheedle
out or approrpriate information in public later. They are shits.
They are mostly worse at polemic, too. And unfunny. Which is why
their impotence at verbal duels drives them to extremes.
-- Marek
The Nieznosny Dyzio on this here mountain.
(hint: Gombrowicz, available in American)
P.s. nearly none of them has ever written a poem fo this reach or patience:
from poems from newspapers, a book in progress
muslim women cover themselves to lessen arousal of men,
speaker says
-----------------------------------------------------------
the islamic practice of
separating men and women
strengthens the family unit
a muslim speaker said today.
oh, scheherazade, i'm all ears.
please continue.
a member of the islamic sect
ahmadiyya,
presented the seminar
"segregation of the sexes in islam"
to 25 people at the student union.
are those the same 25 people? somebody better
find out who these 25 people
are
and what they are doing
after hours
at the maryland union
instead of having a ball
windowshopping and barhopping
and partying
at georgetown
like normal people do. people like us.
the event was sponsored by the ahmadiyya student union
a group not recognized
by all islamic groups.
our religion, the speaker said,
recognizes that the desire for romance is
natural,
but the attraction between the opposite sexes
must be allowed
only
in the context of marriage.
goodbye sharon.
i will not commute that far on weekends only.
get out of l.a. or it's over, baby.
in islamic cultures, general intermingling
of men and women
is prohibited,
as is dating.
women are required to keep themselves
covered
when in the presence
of eligible men,
those they may potentially marry.
this is called hijab
the arabic word for cover.
the woman must wear a head covering
and her body
must never be
must never
be
shown in public.
muslims have varying opinions
varying opinions
as to what is
adequate cover.
how 'bout skin?
i think that the face is a part of a woman's
beauty and must be
covered
but my understanding may be
different from that of others, she said,
herself heavily covered.
scheherazade, you must be very beautiful.
the speaker said that hijab
encourages chastity and prevents men
from misinterpreting a woman's intentions
toward them.
die, scum. get away from me. works, on me,
i know.
men are more easily
aroused
romantically
and sexually
by the physical appearance
of a woman.
the veil makes it easier on him
to remain pure,
preventing not only the actual wrongful act
jennifer, let's fuck.
but also the thought and the temptation
that may lead to it.
uh, maybe let's don't.
women are not required to be veiled
in the presence of ineligible men,
those that they may
never marry,
such as fathers and brothers,
or when they are alone with each other,
children
or their husbands.
the dress restrictions may also be
relaxed
in emergency
situations.
because dating is prohibited,
islamic marriages are often
arranged
by families, friends and religious organizations.
in western society,
you go from person
to person
for this thing called
falling in love
though it's not guaranteed to
happen.
islam takes a different attitude.
instead of falling in love,
you work
to build love
after marriage.
in the west, marriage is based on the premise
of falling in love.
if that's taken away
the marriage may be in jeopardy
or the parties will seek romance
with other people.
in the islamic system,
it is understood
that love
takes work
to grow.
the speaker said that hijab
may be bothersome
but it is no worse
than any other
inconvenience
in life.
when the weather is cold, she said,
we wear boots and a heavy coat
and a heavy coat.
cathy, this is the ice age. i can already see it
and it's only june.
when we drive, we observe the speed
limit, she said,
these restrictions are bothersome,
she said,
but we put up with them
for our own good.
alas, i already have some tickets...
laurae, when you visit, how about a paisley chadora
instead of that paisley skirt? you could always wear it
that way, girl.
despite the speaker's reassurances
some of the audience (then less than 25)
were still apprehensive of the islamic system.
must be the skin cancer crowd. disregard them.
they are a splinter radical group of ours. they are fools.
may sun have mercy on them.
the speaker said
that women
must be covered
because they are the natural attractors
of the human species.
strange attractors, too.
but in the real-world chaos physics, say,
in poland,
don't they put blinders
on horses? and worse?
and that men
are more easily aroused
easy, marek, easy.... c'mon, boy, take it easy and let's go,
boy
by the physical beauty
of women.
of women.
oy.
Marek Lugowski
24 June 1990
Lake Monroe, Indiana
oleander p. carbondale
>"AND EVERY WOMAN WANTS TO BE RAPED???" What kind of analogy is
>that to my comment that people post poetry here because they
>want to have it commented uponn?
wow. did you actually read what i posted below that, or did you
just let that red-faced knee-jerk reaction grab hold of you and go from
there? *shrug* doesnt matter. I refer you to your own point, the one brendan
was responding to:
>> What's more, the only reason that people would psost their
>>poetry here, especially saying C&C welcome, is if they are confident
>>enough or brave enough or stupid enough to try it. In such a public
>>forum, you have to expect criticism, harsh criticism. And let's be
>>honest - everyone wants it anyway. Tell me, all of you who are
>>bitching about Marek, that you wouldn't rather have him (as well
>>as other people) criticising your poetry than just
>>simply ignoring it.
my point (as succinctly as i can manage to put it):
no should have to expect harshness.
no one should have to be made to feel as if it is a very confident,
brave -- nay, STUPID -- thing to want to post, to put one's heart, one's
soul, one's self on the line.
and no, maria, everyone doesnt want it.
i, personally, would rather be treated like an adult, given adult feedback.
i dont ask for anything more. i sure as hell dont expect anything less.
i'll be damned if i allow myself to sit by quietly and allow someone
else to give of anything less to another human being.
>I'm sorry, but people don't
>post their poetry here because they want it ignored.
read above response. better yet, read tim's response. it's much
better:)
>eye. Do you really believe that, when someone says "C & C Welcome"
>that they don't really mean it? So yes means no and no means
>yes - is THAT what you're getting at? And every woman wants to
>be raped, right?
say whuh...? i have no idea (besides the rape analogy) where you came up
with this analysis from my post....please point it out to me, so that i
may mentally correct my mode of writing, in order to prevent future
misunderstandings.
i refer you to the above response, again.
>I'm not coming here trying to make enemies.
enemies? from what quarter?? you, ms. alonso, have no enemies here --
you know that already. i hope that you do not consider myself one.
>I guess I just don't
>understand exactly what the big deal's about. People complain,
>but then spend a decent chunk of their time in correspondences
>to or about Marek. Perhaps you can explain this to me.
he asks for it. *shrug* it makes him happy ;)
> Wouldn't
>it be simpler, and much more effective, to merely ignore the
>"problem" (if you see it as that)? Just a suggestion...
simpler, yes. more effective....no.
it isnt his criticisms of ppl's poetry, exactly, for the most part
(though i've seen some doozies to make a sadist proud). it's
how personal it gets. you love the poet, even if the poem sucks
ripe strawberries in june/could use a little work. :) i
refer you to shooshie's post to wlod for a better answer on why all the
bitchin' (or at least a good part of it):
>>Now...let me get it straight. You seem to think that anyone who is not a
>>coward would let Marek run over them and not say anything. Right? Are you
>>saying that one should watch someone trouncing people with the most
>>degenerate profanity and abuse and remain silent? "Hear no evil, see no
>>evil, speak no evil?"
>>
>>Not in my life. No way. Forget it.
i'd like to chat more, but i have a class to run off to.
you take care now, maria.
ann
Shooshie
I think what you said was very clear, and I didn't interpret it as
anything other than what you meant... I think. Just wanted to throw in my
verbal support. Miscommunication seems rampant among people to whom words
are the most important. I wonder why that is? I wrote a silly poem about
it one time... so I'll paste part of it in:
On Writing
__________________________________________
Writing is an arrogance to words
as a hot knife is to warm butter
where the butter melts
as the knife tries to carve
and guess which one laughs last?
shooshie/May,1992
Fountain Hills, Arizona
In article <44ptle$p...@triton.unm.edu>, inc...@unm.edu (oleander p.
carbondale) wrote:
|> evening, y'all:
|>
|> >"AND EVERY WOMAN WANTS TO BE RAPED???" What kind of analogy is
|> >that to my comment that people post poetry here because they
|> >want to have it commented uponn?
|>
|> wow. did you actually read what i posted below that, or did you
|> just let that red-faced knee-jerk reaction grab hold of you and go from
|> there? *shrug* doesnt matter. I refer you to your own point, the one brendan
|> was responding to:
|>
|> >> What's more, the only reason that people would psost their
|> >>poetry here, especially saying C&C welcome, is if they are confident
|> >>enough or brave enough or stupid enough to try it. In such a public
|> >>forum, you have to expect criticism, harsh criticism. And let's be
|> >>honest - everyone wants it anyway. Tell me, all of you who are
|> >>bitching about Marek, that you wouldn't rather have him (as well
|> >>as other people) criticising your poetry than just
|> >>simply ignoring it.
|>
|> my point (as succinctly as i can manage to put it):
|> no should have to expect harshness.
|> no one should have to be made to feel as if it is a very confident,
|> brave -- nay, STUPID -- thing to want to post, to put one's heart, one's
|> soul, one's self on the line.
|> and no, maria, everyone doesnt want it.
|>
|> i, personally, would rather be treated like an adult, given adult feedback.
|> i dont ask for anything more. i sure as hell dont expect anything less.
|> i'll be damned if i allow myself to sit by quietly and allow someone
|> else to give of anything less to another human being.
|>
|>
|> >I'm sorry, but people don't
|> >post their poetry here because they want it ignored.
|>
|> read above response. better yet, read tim's response. it's much
|> better:)
|>
|> >eye. Do you really believe that, when someone says "C & C Welcome"
|> >that they don't really mean it? So yes means no and no means
|> >yes - is THAT what you're getting at? And every woman wants to
|> >be raped, right?
|>
|> say whuh...? i have no idea (besides the rape analogy) where you came up
|> with this analysis from my post....please point it out to me, so that i
|> may mentally correct my mode of writing, in order to prevent future
|> misunderstandings.
|>
|> i refer you to the above response, again.
|>
|> >I'm not coming here trying to make enemies.
|>
|> enemies? from what quarter?? you, ms. alonso, have no enemies here --
|> you know that already. i hope that you do not consider myself one.
|>
|> >I guess I just don't
|> >understand exactly what the big deal's about. People complain,
|> >but then spend a decent chunk of their time in correspondences
|> >to or about Marek. Perhaps you can explain this to me.
|>
|> he asks for it. *shrug* it makes him happy ;)
|>
|> > Wouldn't
|> >it be simpler, and much more effective, to merely ignore the
|> >"problem" (if you see it as that)? Just a suggestion...
|>