Was Heathcliff black?

[David Matthews]

In the latest version of _Wuthering Heights_ Heathcliff is played by a black actor - James Howson _ (who was actually born in Yorkshire). Casting my mind back over the novel I was wondering whether it was possible that that was in the back of Emily Bronte's when she created the character. One of her descriptions
described Heathcliff's skin color as "..as dark as the devil). Because of the racial biases of the time the readers would not have gone for a genuine inter-racial romance so perhaps all she could do was hint.

I remember reading some time ago that Heathcliff was based on a real life character who had lived quite close to the Bronte's and whom Emily had probably met. Anyone have any more details on that?

Dave M

[Francis A. Miniter]

Heathcliff was a gypsy foundling from Liverpool. Catherine Earnshaw
won't marry him because it would degrade her.


Francis A. Miniter

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <kdieov$rvq$1...@dont-email.me>,

So "black" as in back hair and eyes and olive complexion.

As distinguished from "Black Irish," who have black hair, usually
blue eyes, and pale skin. Think Oliver Reed.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[David Matthews]

An important word went missing in my original post. I meant to write "...the back of Emily Bronte's mind..."

Sorry about that.

[David Matthews]

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 11:17:12 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <kdieov$rvq$1...@dont-email.me>,
>
> Francis A. Miniter <fami...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >On 1/20/2013 7:10 PM, David Matthews wrote:
>
> >> In the latest version of _Wuthering Heights_ Heathcliff is played by a
>
> >black actor - James Howson _ (who was actually born in Yorkshire).
>
> >Casting my mind back over the novel I was wondering whether it was
>
> >possible that that was in the back of Emily Bronte's when she created
>
> >the character. One of her descriptions
>
> >> described Heathcliff's skin color as "..as dark as the devil).
>
> >Because of the racial biases of the time the readers would not have gone
>
> >for a genuine inter-racial romance so perhaps all she could do was hint.
>
> >>
>
> >> I remember reading some time ago that Heathcliff was based on a real
>
> >life character who had lived quite close to the Bronte's and whom Emily
>
> >had probably met. Anyone have any more details on that?
>
> >>
>
> >> Dave M
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> > Heathcliff was a gypsy foundling from Liverpool. Catherine Earnshaw
>
> >won't marry him because it would degrade her.
>
>
>
> So "black" as in back hair and eyes and olive complexion.
>
>
>
> As distinguished from "Black Irish," who have black hair, usually
>
> blue eyes, and pale skin. Think Oliver Reed.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dorothy J. Heydt
>

When Emily wrote "...dark as the Devil" she was specifically referring to skin color.) - Here's the actual quote as Earnshaw opens his coat to show the child "..but you must e’en take it as a gift of God; though it’s as dark almost as if it came from the devil.’

[David Matthews]

That's what the Earhshaw's were led to believe but of course it was never proven.

Interesting comments from another source:
"Bronte describes him as a ‘dark-skinned gypsy’ and the opening chapters seem to suggest that he was actually Earnshaw’s bastard by a black or mixed-race mistress he had in Liverpool.

The darkness of his skin is emphasized throughout the book, and it is known that Liverpool had a black community since the days of the slave trade. So was Heathcliff in fact black, or of black ancestory?"

I'll have to read the book again because any such suggestions escaped me.

Dave M

[Judith Brenan]

"David Matthews" <dm16...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2d99770-3b36-4d71...@googlegroups.com...

==========================================================================

Interesting how we read what we think we see. My brain put in the missing
word, I hadn't noticed that you left it out.

Cheers
Judith in NZ

[David Johnston]

He certainly wasn't of unadulterated north-European extraction and that
meant that that their romance had to be doomed.

[Melani...@hotmail.com]

Well, who IS of "unadulterated Northern European extraction? The Moors
invaded Spain and meandered throughout Europe. As a European, unlike
the Americans, I don't feel that someone with dark eyes, frizzy hair
or dark skin must have some Afro-American blood in them.

I doubt that Brontë wanted Heathcliff to be seen as an Afro-Brit. It's
okay for filmmakers to use a black actor for the role, but it does
shift the focus a bit in the wrong direction.

The reason Catherine did not want to marry Heathcliff was not because
he was black, but because, as Mr. Miniter wrote, he was a gypsy - thus
of lowly birth and uneducated and uncouth, and basically straight out
of the pigsty. This is not about interracial difficulties but about
class - wanting to marry the rich guy who went to the best University
as opposed to the bum next door.

Perhaps you think it's okay to use a black actor to portray the uneducated
bum next door.

What would be really cool would be if Edgar Linton were played by a
black actor, and Heathcliff by a white actor. Or if both Edgar and
Heathcliff were black.

Melanie

[Francis A. Miniter]

On 2/14/2013 8:40 AM, Melani...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Am Samstag, 2. Februar 2013 22:10:20 UTC+1 schrieb David Johnston:
>> On 1/20/2013 5:10 PM, David Matthews wrote:
>>
>>> In the latest version of _Wuthering Heights_ Heathcliff is played by
>>
>>> a black actor - James Howson _ (who was actually born in Yorkshire).
>>
>>> Casting my mind back over the novel I was wondering whether it was
>>
>>> possible that that was in the back of Emily Bronte's when she created
>>
>>> the character. One of her descriptions described Heathcliff's skin
>>
>>> color as "..as dark as the devil). Because of the racial biases of
>>
>>> the time the readers would not have gone for a genuine inter-racial
>>
>>> romance so perhaps all she could do was hint.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I remember reading some time ago that Heathcliff was based on a real
>>
>>> life character who had lived quite close to the Bronte's and whom
>>
>>> Emily had probably met. Anyone have any more details on that?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Dave M
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> He certainly wasn't of unadulterated north-European extraction and that
>>
>> meant that that their romance had to be doomed.
>
> Well, who IS of "unadulterated Northern European extraction? The Moors
> invaded Spain and meandered throughout Europe. As a European, unlike
> the Americans, I don't feel that someone with dark eyes, frizzy hair
> or dark skin must have some Afro-American blood in them.
>

> I doubt that Bront� wanted Heathcliff to be seen as an Afro-Brit. It's

> okay for filmmakers to use a black actor for the role, but it does
> shift the focus a bit in the wrong direction.
>
> The reason Catherine did not want to marry Heathcliff was not because
> he was black, but because, as Mr. Miniter wrote, he was a gypsy - thus
> of lowly birth and uneducated and uncouth, and basically straight out
> of the pigsty. This is not about interracial difficulties but about
> class - wanting to marry the rich guy who went to the best University
> as opposed to the bum next door.
>
> Perhaps you think it's okay to use a black actor to portray the uneducated
> bum next door.
>
> What would be really cool would be if Edgar Linton were played by a
> black actor, and Heathcliff by a white actor. Or if both Edgar and
> Heathcliff were black.
>
> Melanie
>

There is a wonderful satirical essay by Frederick Douglass entitled "On
Being Seen Walking With Two White Women" (originally published in North
Star, 25 May 1849, and which can now be found in the Modern Library
College Edition of Frederick Douglass's writings) wherein he recites the
horrified gasps of New Yorkers when seeing him in the company of two
white women from London. He notes that it was not simply the proximity
of the white women to a black man that brought about this shock, after
all white women were driven about by black servants all the time. It
was, in fact, the breach of class expectations, that the black man
should not be perceived as a servant, but rather as a gentleman.


Francis A. Miniter

[Transition Zone]

On Feb 14, 8:40 am, Melanie_Sa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Am Samstag, 2. Februar 2013 22:10:20 UTC+1 schrieb David
Johnston:
>

> What would be really cool would be if Edgar Linton were played by
a
>black actor, and Heathcliff by a white actor. Or if both Edgar and
> Heathcliff were black.

Reminds me a little of the Heathcliff Huxtable main character from The
Cosby Show of the 1980's. Different, of course, from the Wuthering
Heights novel character named "Heathcliff" by Emily Brontë. Though,
you do have to wonder if a writer of the Cosby Show didn't actually
wonder about this same Heathcliff issue regarding the Wuthering
Heights novel.
(its a classic from the 1800's which are my favorite, but I haven't
read this one)

[Pogonip]

On 2/14/2013 6:22 AM, Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>
> There is a wonderful satirical essay by Frederick Douglass entitled "On
> Being Seen Walking With Two White Women" (originally published in North
> Star, 25 May 1849, and which can now be found in the Modern Library
> College Edition of Frederick Douglass's writings) wherein he recites the
> horrified gasps of New Yorkers when seeing him in the company of two
> white women from London. He notes that it was not simply the proximity
> of the white women to a black man that brought about this shock, after
> all white women were driven about by black servants all the time. It
> was, in fact, the breach of class expectations, that the black man
> should not be perceived as a servant, but rather as a gentleman.

More than 100 years later, I've had similar experiences. I have friends
of many hues, and co-workers, too. In the 1960s, in Sausalito,
California, I was treated rudely by some passersby as I walked with a
good friend who is like our President, half black, half white. I was
puzzled because I couldn't figure out what was wrong with those people,
and when it did occur to me, I was shocked.

Some 30 years later, while shopping in my local grocery, I encountered
another old friend and former co-worker. We greeted each other with a
hug and an angry man slammed his grocery cart into mine, a very bizarre
action on his part. As the cart was a foot or two away, nobody was hurt
or even impacted, just stunned.

In retrospect, I'm sure this happened more than these two occasions, but
since it's the last thing on my mind, it doesn't always register at the
time. People are peculiar.
--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

[Francis A. Miniter]

Alas, the poison of racism is widespread and still lingers deep within
the psyche of many. My secretary and close friend of many years is
African American. There have been occasions when we have gone somewhere
together that people in a place of business will not think we are
together, even when we have been intently talking before the people
approach.


Francis A. Miniter

[David Matthews]

I think I'll have to read _Wuthering Heights again. The first part of it anyway. Why did Earnshaw adopt Heathcliff in the first place when it was obvious he would not fit into neighborhood or the family and why did he always favor the boy? Earnshaw told the other children he was a gypsy but apparently there are hints in the early chapters that Heathcliff was his actually his illegitimate son.

I think one of the writers here should do what Jean Rhys did in _The Wide Sargossa Sea_ with _Jane Eyre_ and write a pre _Wuthering Heights_ novel.

Dave M

[Jo Wolf]

Um, weren't people from the Indian subcontinent often called black? As
well as those mixed with white? That would make sense in this case....

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

[Francis A. Miniter]

Good point. Not only that, to the English, people from Greece, Italy
and Spain were "swarthy".


Francis A. Miniter

[David Matthews]

The "Wogs begin at Calais" syndrome :-) Some time ago in England a recruitment officer for an airline was hauled over coals for describing the complexion of an applicant as "swarthy".

I remember the politically incorrect phrase "Touch of the tarbrush" to describe someone with real or suspected non-Caucasian roots.

Dave M

[Melani...@hotmail.com]

Hauled over the coals for descibing someone as "swarthy"?! That's
a bit extreme, isn't it?

I mean, just take a look at southern Italians, they have black hair
and eyes, dark olive skin - Sardinians are called "un moro" by other
Italians. Yes, they probably do have African blood somewhere in
their veins, being so close to Africa.

David Matthews asks why Heathcliff was adopted when it was obvious he
would not fit into the neighbourhood. Well, they were on the moors,
so there was not much neighbourhood to speak of, and the family was
small enough. If I recall without googling, he brought him home the
way someone brings home a stray cat or dog. Out of the goodness
of his heart.

Melanie

[Transition Zone]

On Feb 17, 5:23 am, David Matthews <dm1657...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 17, 2013 12:13:06 AM UTC-5, Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> > On 2/16/2013 11:58 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
>
> > > Um, weren't people from the Indian subcontinent often called black?  As
>
> > > well as those mixed with white?  That would make sense in this case....
>
> > > Jo Wolf
>
> > > Martinez, Georgia, USA
>
> > Good point.  Not only that, to the English, people from Greece, Italy
>
> > and Spain were "swarthy".
>
> > Francis A. Miniter
>
> The "Wogs begin at Calais" syndrome :-)  Some time ago in England a recruitment officer for an airline  was hauled over coals for describing the complexion of an applicant as "swarthy".

I've run into quite a few such 19th century, or so, references for
the
black haired and eyed in Europe. The Corsican Buonapartes referring
to Napoleon. And here are some quotes from a 19th century book named
"Vanity Fair" written by William Makepeace Thackeray, an author of
half-indian half-British ancestry, regarding use of the word
"swarthy"
along with others more direct.
p. 242 "... young Bullingdon )who was now growing up a tall, gawky,
swarthy lad and about to become my greatest plague and annoyance) ...
"
p. 224 "Marry that mulatto woman?" George said, pulling up his shirt
collars. "I don't like the colors, sir. Ask the black that sweeps
opposite Fleet Market, sir. I'm not going to marry a Hottentot
Venus."
p. 77 "And once when he was speaking of the benighted condition of
the king of Timbuctoo and the number of his wives who were likewise
in the darkness, some gypsy miscreant in the crowd asked,"
p. 360 "A mature spinster having but faint ideas for marriage, her
love for the blacks occupied almost all her feelings. It is to her, I
believe, we owe that beautiful poem -
"Lead us to some sunny isle
Yonder in the western deep
Where the skies forever smile
And the blacks forever weep,"

[David Matthews]

This may be of interest, about Emily Bronte's Irish grandfather Hugh Brunty - http://wuthering-heights.co.uk/inspirations.htm

Scroll down to _The Story of Hugh Brunty_

Dave M