snuff movies
Toby Howard
-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks!
---Toby
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toby Howard Computer Science Department, University of Manchester,
Lecturer Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K.
janet: to...@uk.ac.man.cs.p1
internet: toby%p1.cs.m...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
earn/bitnet: toby%uk.ac.man.cs.p1@UKACRL
uucp: ...!ukc!mup1!toby voice: +44 61-275-6274
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John G. DeArmond
>I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
>-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
>reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
>documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Yes, indeed they do exist. I'm told that most come from
Central/South America. I saw part of one once about 15 years
ago. It was a very low grade Super-8 film. The plot was what
you'd expect. Guy picks up a girl off the street. They screw a
bit and when he's getting ready to come, he stabs her in the
chest with a large knife. After he comes, he proceeds to
butcher the body (That's where I had had enough and left.)
I was told by the individual showing the movie that there is a
rather large trade in kidnapped young girls who are taken to
Columbia or wherever and told that they will be released if they do
a porn flick which in reality is a snuff flick.
BTW, the rumor of the existance of this movie at the government
construction site where I was working at the time had the FBI all over
the place. Fortunately they did not want to talk to me but many of my
friends had a chat with the agents. They seemed very serious...
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC | We can no more blame our loss of freedom on congress
Radiation Systems, Inc. | than we can prostitution on pimps. Both simply
Atlanta, Ga | provide broker services for their customers.
{emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd| - Dr. W Williams | **I am the NRA**
The Anarch
>In article <17...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> to...@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) writes:
> I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
> -- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
> reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
> documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
>
>Could it be that this is a Urban Legend (tm) that became the subject of
>a film, thus further strengthening the rumor ?
This is one of the few subjects which I find so repulsive that I cannot
consider it for more than a few moments without feeling physically ill.
Such movies do exist. A friend of mine spent some time as an officer in
the British army and part of his service was spent in Northern Ireland.
Guns and ammunition are not the only obscenities that get smuggled
across the border with Eire. Occasionally they catch someone
trafficking in "Snuff movies". I gather that the smugglers so caught
are not treated with quite the "defference" that one might offer
even an arms smuggler.
Personally, I cannot think of words harsh enough to describe my
feelings towards this practise. It is perhaps one of the foulest
examples of the potential depths of the human psyche.
I consider that to watch such a thing and derive some sort of
twisted "pleasure" from such a thing to be the worst and most
repulsive form of mental sickness. To make one . . . .
--
Tim Abbott | "out there in the darkness, out there in the night
Astronomy, UTexas Austin | out there in the starlight, one soul burns
tm...@astro.as.utexas.edu | brighter than a thousand suns." - Simple Minds
Drifter...
>This is one of the few subjects which I find so repulsive that I cannot
>consider it for more than a few moments without feeling physically ill.
>Personally, I cannot think of words harsh enough to describe my
>feelings towards this practise. It is perhaps one of the foulest
>examples of the potential depths of the human psyche.
est.
>I consider that to watch such a thing and derive some sort of
>twisted "pleasure" from such a thing to be the worst and most
>repulsive form of mental sickness. To make one . . . .
race and for no other reason? Ever seen the death camp films made after
Germany was defeated? And the people who did it had wives and kids. They
didn't think anything about killing babies and children, or setting them up
for vivisection.
How about Hiroshima? Ever seen the aftermath films of that? Probably not,
the US goverment refuses to release them. Never will.
How about the Gainesville slashings? Three young girls carefully stalked
and murdered, then mutilated. Should I give you details on how?
Snuff films are pretty sick. But hardly the worst thing the human race has
accomplished by far.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No regret, no remorse,
We don't care what it meant.
Another day, another death,
Another sorrow, another breath.
--"No Remorse" by Metallica
Bill Gribble
>Could it be that this is a Urban Legend (tm) that became the subject of
>a film, thus further strengthening the rumor ?
On a related (but non-sexual) topic: I'm trying to compile a list of
urban myths/legends, but I'm incapable of remembering more than
four or five. I would appreciate email from anyone who can think of
some goodies. I'll post them somewhere if there's any interest.
By the way, my roommate claims to have seen a snuff film at a party.
Of course, I could be lying. But I'm sure *someone* reading this
will feel qualified to say *they* now know someone who's seen one, and
the myth (or is it reality?) of the snuff film will be perpetuated.
>* * * Otto J. Makela <ot...@jyu.fi> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*****************************************************************************
** Bill Gribble Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA **
** bgri...@jarthur.claremont.edu Never heard of it? You're stupid. **
*****************************************************************************
Otto J. Makela
-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Sounds a lot like the movie VideoDrome. There they have this illegal video
station, where they torture and kill people for real -- the catch is that
they send out a special signal which gives you a brain tumor if you watch
that channel for too long... thus "weeding out the unfit".
Could it be that this is a Urban Legend (tm) that became the subject of
a film, thus further strengthening the rumor ?
Long Live The New Flesh,
--
* * * Otto J. Makela <ot...@jyu.fi> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (CCITT, Bell 2400/1200/300) *
* Mail: Kauppakatu 1 B 18, SF-40100 Jyvaskyla, Finland, EUROPE *
* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ele...@canterbury.ac.nz
Actually, to make one is probably simply a money making venture. This
wouldn't be the first industry that kills people for profit (other examples
are drug trafficers and the tobacco industry). It's the people who pay so
much to get them (which is what causes them to be made) who must be really
screwed up.
DAve.
P.S. I don't condone any industry which kills people for profit.
Larry Weeks
> I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
> -- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
> reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
> documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Yes, such films do exist, as someone I know has seen some. I hear a
common type is a that sick/poor person sells himself to a film-maker to
feed his family. Even the "Faces of Death" series could be rated as
"snuff" films, perhaps. If you don't know what these are... videotapes
of people/animals being killed. A monkey in Asia with his head in a
hole in the table, and people taking turns hitting him on the head
with a small mallet until he is dead, and then being served the brains
(a delicacy), a man being mauled and killed by bear, vehicle accidents,
murders, etc... And I've even heard of films where they hire porn
actors, who are not privy to the fact that they are in a "snuff" film
until they ARE snuffed, as the orginal poster says. Urban rumor? I
only hope so. It's a sick world.
Larry
d...@ecn.purdue.edu
"What monstrosities would walk the streets were some people's faces
as unformed as their minds."
Philip J Stephens
> The Anarch writes:
> >This is one of the few subjects which I find so repulsive that I cannot
> >consider it for more than a few moments without feeling physically ill.
>
> I can think of things much, much worse.
> How about slowly torturing and killing 400,000+ people because of there
> race and for no other reason?
> How about Hiroshima?
> [...]
> How about the Gainesville slashings?
> Snuff films are pretty sick. But hardly the worst thing the human race has
> accomplished by far.
Quite honestly, I cannot see the point in this reply. The
only difference between the above examples and the practice
of making snuff films is the number of lives cruelly wasted.
To try and flame someone for expressing his or her
repulsiveness towards the atrocities people inflict on
innocent victims, purely because the example he or she cites
is of lower order of magnitude in terms of deaths, is demonstrating
a lack of concern that is in itself frightening.
All of the above examples are repulsive. EQUALLY
repulsive. Just as the deaths due to World War I and II,
Vietnam, the eight-year war between Iraq and Iran, etc. ad
infinum are an appalling example of the lack of human
understanding towards life. They all belong to the same
category, and none should be judged purely on
newsworthiness.
</\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\></\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\>
< Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." >
< Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." >
< La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from >
< AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper >
<\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/>
john reece
> I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where
people are
> -- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
> reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any
reliable
> documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Movies *claiming* to be snuff films have been circulated, but whether
they were real or faked has been a matter of considerable debate.
John Reece
Not an Intel spokesman
jre...@yoyodyne.intel.com
Larry Weeks
> I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
> -- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
> reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
> documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Yes, such films do exist, as someone I know has seen some. I hear a
Ray Randolph
>reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
>documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
>
but I'm not sure (anyone?). But apparently it is a real phenomenon, targeted
mainly towards wealthy collecters and the like. blech!
-Ray
--
rayr!nc...@csu.colostate.edu (or something like that).
Data: (303)225-1413 HST (or something like that)
"Here the mirror of dreams of beauty...
Here the looking glass of pride and ruined vanity." -- Clockdva
Erik OShoughnessy
Snuff movies are not an urban ledgend. When I was a sophmore in High
School, the in thing to do was to obtain a copy of the video "Faces of
Death" and watch that. ( Fortunately for me, I was an 'out' kind of
person, and never had to watch it. ) Faces of Death and Faces of
Death II are videos with allegedly real footage of people/animals
dying and/or being mutilated. As to the sexual component, I guess
it's in the eye of the beholder.
regards..
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
~ | Erik O'Shaughnessy
|\/\/\/| ~ | Small Systems
| | ~ | New Mexico State University
| * | ~ o========== | Las Cruces, NM USA
| (x)(x) |_|==== | eosh...@dante.nmsu.edu
C _) === |------------------------------------
| ,___| === |"Do not follow the NULL pointer,
| / | for that path leads to chaos,
/____\ Die Bart! Die! | and madness." - me
| \ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
john reece
d...@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Larry
> common type is a that sick/poor person sells himself to a film-maker to
> feed his family. Even the "Faces of Death" series could be rated as
> "snuff" films, perhaps. If you don't know what these are... videotapes
> of people/animals being killed.
As with virtually all "snuff" films, "Faces of Death" is generally regarded
as being a fake. Just because it's advertised as real doesn't mean it is.
Gil Pilz@Eng@Banyan
>-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
>reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
>documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
Considering the proclivities of the human psyche (check out the
mythology of the sex/death linkage) along with the existence of paid
killers and the relative ease of video production you can be 99.99%
sure that there ARE videotapes of such activities. The real question
is how many ?
Gilbert Pilz Jr. "I don't believe in nihilism, anarchy is too confining
g...@banyan.com for me, I have no opinion about apathy." - g. panfile
Drifter...
I will not post further on this topic here.
In article <88...@latcs1.oz.au>, step...@latcs1.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes:
>Drifter... writes:
>> The Anarch writes:
>> >This is one of the few subjects which I find so repulsive that I cannot
>> >consider it for more than a few moments without feeling physically ill.
>> I can think of things much, much worse.
>> [...]
>> How about slowly torturing and killing 400,000+ people because of there
>> race and for no other reason?
>> [...]
>> How about Hiroshima?
>> [...]
>> How about the Gainesville slashings?
>> [...]
>> Snuff films are pretty sick. But hardly the worst thing the human race has
>> accomplished by far.
> Quite honestly, I cannot see the point in this reply. The
>only difference between the above examples and the practice
>of making snuff films is the number of lives cruelly wasted.
could.
Snuff films are sick. But the original poster emphasized very strongly that
they considered it to be *THE* worst possible thing a person could do. This is
simply not true. And the differences in my examples were a lot more than the
number of people. In snuff films, someone makes it to make money. The Gaines-
ville slasher just did it because he wanted to. And maybe because he wanted to
terrify this city.
Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
> To try and flame someone for expressing his or her
>repulsiveness towards the atrocities people inflict on
>innocent victims, purely because the example he or she cites
>is of lower order of magnitude in terms of deaths, is demonstrating
>a lack of concern that is in itself frightening.
would have been in mail and it would have been very offensive.
I disagreed with their opinion. Not with the number of deaths. You are
jumping to conclusions.
> All of the above examples are repulsive. EQUALLY
>repulsive. Just as the deaths due to World War I and II,
>Vietnam, the eight-year war between Iraq and Iran, etc. ad
>infinum are an appalling example of the lack of human
>understanding towards life. They all belong to the same
>category, and none should be judged purely on
>newsworthiness.
the goverment won't even release the films of the aftereffects of Hiroshima,
except of course the ones that just show rubble.
The atrocities described previously have more complex motives than just "lack
of understanding towards life." There are the motivations and morals to take
into account. Snuff films are nasty, and illegal, and the people that make them
should be lobotimized or executed if caught. But they are not the most vile
example of inhumanity out there. Despite what you may want to think, it is
not a black/white judgement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CARL%NUCENG...@PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU - "Here, have a scooby snack."
"Ella, Ella, Ella... Never go knockin' on Death's door -- ring the doorbell
and run away instead. Death *hates* that." --Doctor, Doctor
*DISCLAIMER* - My messages have NOTHING to do with the UF and/or the Nuclear
Engineering Department. And vice versa.
Morten Ronseth
FOD might be a fake, but snuff films *do* exist. For real. Some months ago,
the headlines here in England read something like:
"16 boys killed in snuff films"
and went on to describe how homeless boys were lured by perverts, and later
used as actors in snuff films, being killed in the end.
The police has footage to prove it...
Morten.
--
====================================================================
Morten Lerskau Ronseth UUCP: mor...@qmw-cs.uucp
Dept. of Computer Science JANET: mor...@uk.ac.qmw.cs
Queen Mary and Westfield College ARPA: morten%qmw...@ucl-cs.arpa
Mile End Road Easylink: 19019285
London E1 4NS Tlf: 071 975 5220
England. Dept. fax: 081 980 6533
Preetham Gopalaswamy
>In article <0093D341...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu>, ca...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu (Drifter...) writes:
>> Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
>> people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
>> would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
>
>are not aware of the terrible choice that Harry Truman faced when deciding
>to use the bomb on Japan. The clinching point was that casualty estimates
>for a complete invasion of Japan would run well into the millions when both
>US forces and Japanese civilians were taken into account. A Japanese
>invasion was expected to be a bloody, house-to-house fight that could easily
>take more than a year.
And I certainly hope that our consideration for human lives has not sunk to
such a level that destroying the lives of millions of lives (spanning several
generations) can be justified for any reason. It is not for a government, any
government to decide the fate of people's lives. The people who died in the
bombing were mainly civilians, not soldiers or killers.
War by itself is not fair, and the old maxim "All is fair in love and war" is
sure as hell not fair.
>
> Bombing Japan was not a simple decision. It was done to end a war
>with a minimum number of casualties for both sides. This proved to be
>true, since I think total casualties for both bombs were under 100,000, and
>certainly far less than 1,000,000. Don't believe that the use of nuclear
>weapons was done in a cavalier, gee-whiz manner.
>
True it was not a simple decision, but IMHO it was a disastrous one. If it
was a show of strength that the US wanted, it could have bombed a less populous
region. It could have stopped at one bomb. The choices are several, and
all this assuming that the bombing was imperative.
However, this is not the right newsgroup for this discussion and I apologise
to everybody on it. It is just that I saw this posting and felt so strongly
about it that I had to respond right away.
>
>Chuck Musciano ARPA : ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com
>Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck
>PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131
>Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 729-2537
>
Preetham Gopalaswamy
Steve Baumgarten
>As with virtually all "snuff" films, "Faces of Death" is generally regarded
>as being a fake. Just because it's advertised as real doesn't mean it is.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the only semi-legitimate "snuff"
film I know of: SNUFF. It was released during the early seventies,
and purported to be a real snuff film. Banned and picketed and the
whole schtick. Made lots of money that way.
The idea was that you watched a very bad film with some sex scenes in
it. But at the end, during the filming of one scene (in bed), it
appears that the director goes nuts, ties the girl down, and starts
dismembering her. Meanwhile, the cameras keep rolling, though the
angle is skewed (as if the cameraman left it going and ran out of the
room). This is to make things look more authentic, I guess.
Sadly, it looks both very fake and somewhat tame by our current
standards of horror. TOTAL RECALL was much more violent, though SNUFF
is more disgusting if only because of what it pretended to be.
(And yes, it's on video. Wonder whether Blockbusters -- champions of
free speech that they are -- carries it...)
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you."
baum...@esquire.dpw.com |
cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
Chuck Musciano
> people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
> would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
I certainly hope that recent history has not become so dim that people
are not aware of the terrible choice that Harry Truman faced when deciding
to use the bomb on Japan. The clinching point was that casualty estimates
for a complete invasion of Japan would run well into the millions when both
US forces and Japanese civilians were taken into account. A Japanese
invasion was expected to be a bloody, house-to-house fight that could easily
take more than a year.
Bombing Japan was not a simple decision. It was done to end a war
with a minimum number of casualties for both sides. This proved to be
true, since I think total casualties for both bombs were under 100,000, and
certainly far less than 1,000,000. Don't believe that the use of nuclear
weapons was done in a cavalier, gee-whiz manner.
--
Chuck Musciano ARPA : ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com
Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck
PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131
Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 729-2537
A good newspaper is never good enough,
but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison Keillor
Simon Hughes
There has been a lot of posting on the subject of snuff films. Is there
any concrete evidence that such films exist? As far as I know, there isn't.
In particular, the film "Snuff" has long since been confirmed to be special
effects. I'm not saying such films don't exist, I'm just pointing out that
there is still no concrete evidence.
Simon
P.S. Apologies in a rather truncated version of this has appeared. Dunno how
it happened, but I've tried to cancel it.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Hughes, Dept. of Computing, Imperial College. Email: s...@doc.ic.ac.uk
Ramsey Dow
>Sounds a lot like the movie VideoDrome.
>Could it be that this is a Urban Legend (tm) that became the subject of
>a film, thus further strengthening the rumor ?
No, I don't think so. I think that snuff films do--in some form or fashion
--exist. I think, perhaps, that VideoDrome is simply an extension of the
concept of snuff films (like ``live snuff films which kill the viewer'').
I've been told by colleagues that snuff films can be had on the underground
tape scene but who am I to know? I've never seen one.
--
"My power infests all times, all galaxies, | Ramsey Dow, starving undergraduate
all dimensions; but many still seek me | UUCP: ...!gatech!kd4nc!rbdc!ramsey
out--a green jewel they must possess. | Internet: wood...@phs.bgsm.wfu.edu
But see how I destroy their lives." <-+- The Loc-Nar, _Heavy Metal_
Jack Campin
mor...@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Morten Ronseth) wrote:
> FOD might be a fake, but snuff films *do* exist. For real. Some months ago,
> the headlines here in England read something like:
> "16 boys killed in snuff films"
> and went on to describe how homeless boys were lured by perverts, and later
> used as actors in snuff films, being killed in the end.
> The police has footage to prove it...
Nope. What they found was videos that a psychopathic killer had made so
that he could relive his murders. Nobody ever tried to turn them into a
commercial product. The killer was just doing on video what Brady and
Hindley had done on audiotape twenty years previously.
--
-- Jack Campin Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank
Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland 041 339 8855 x6044 work 041 556 1878 home
JANET: ja...@cs.glasgow.ac.uk BANG!net: via mcsun and ukc FAX: 041 330 4913
INTERNET: via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL UUCP: ja...@glasgow.uucp
Chris Palmer
>In article <1...@inews.intel.com> jre...@yoyodyne.intel.com (john reece) writes:
>>As with virtually all "snuff" films, "Faces of Death" is generally regarded
>>as being a fake. Just because it's advertised as real doesn't mean it is.
>
Fake or not, _Faces_Of_Death_ is shown to first year forensic science students
at Jacksonville State University as shock material. Supposedly to show the
students what they will be dealing with in their newly chosen career. Three
different friends of mine are in foresnsic science studies there and they were
all shown the film. There was no mention of it being fake, so either the
professors were hiding the fact or they were were fooled (must be good effects
to fool professional foresnsics experts) or it was real (at least some of it).
I have never seen it (and don't want to), but I heard that the deal was the
producers bought the gristly footage and obtained legal releases to exhibit
them, thereby sidestepping some of the legal issues.
BTW, the movie _Steel_ with Lee Majors has footage of a man falling off a
building superstructure several stories onto a pile of pipe. It was a stuntman
who lost his footing during filming and he died in the fall. The producers
got the rights from his family and from the union to use the footage in the
film. At least this is what I heard...
--
| Christopher M. Palmer #|Quote section| | | | | | ||
/ Intergraph Corporation #| | Closed For| |o| | | | |\
\ Internet: b14!abulafia!pal...@ingr.com #| | | |Repairs| | | | | | |/
| UUCP : ...uunet!ingr!b14!abulafia!palmerc #| | | | | | | | | | | | | ||
JHenderson
<> Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
<> people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
<> would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
<
< I certainly hope that recent history has not become so dim that people
<are not aware of the terrible choice that Harry Truman faced when deciding
<to use the bomb on Japan. The clinching point was that casualty estimates
<for a complete invasion of Japan would run well into the millions when both
<US forces and Japanese civilians were taken into account. A Japanese
<invasion was expected to be a bloody, house-to-house fight that could easily
<take more than a year.
<
< Bombing Japan was not a simple decision. It was done to end a war
<with a minimum number of casualties for both sides. This proved to be
<true, since I think total casualties for both bombs were under 100,000, and
<certainly far less than 1,000,000. Don't believe that the use of nuclear
<weapons was done in a cavalier, gee-whiz manner.
<
wisdom" is erroneous. The real casualty estimates based on contemporary
intelligence were much lower, Japanese diplomats in, for example,
Switzerland were beginning negotiation for a surrender, and the crucial
motive for dropping the bomb was to end the war before the Russians came
in. Much more discussion of all these points is given in a recent issue
of Technology Review, to which I refer interested readers, rather than
take up more space in this (inappropriate) group.
--
**Jeremy Henderson <JHend...@uk.ac.ed> <egp...@uk.ac.ed.castle>**
``Never trust a man in a blue trench-coat
Never drive a car when you're dead"
SC00@lehigh
The fake SNUFF part was inserted in an bad horror movie (of which now I
don't remember the title), with a different actress, not even looking
alike (similarly to what porn industry was used to do, years ago)
Something more about The Faces of Death (I,II & III):
The material is mostly fake, except something taken from documentary
sources.
Something more about real snuff movies:
they are not legend. Years ago many of them were coming from Argentina
(desaparecidos?).
Stefano
Brad Templeton
serious investigation into snuff films. They could not find one. They
found films which claimed to be snuff films, but concluded they were all
similuated. No real evidence of an actual snuff film was found.
Now of course one must consider that if there were a real one, the
producers would not want to talk about it to investigators.
On the other hand, why make one? You can similate death quite easily
and cheaply -- and even with more gore than in real life (something slasher
movie fans have come to expect.) Why take the risk of a murder when you
can simulate one and say you actually did it?
So I would venture that if they exist, there are only a couple of them, and
that the bulk are fake. And quite possibly none are real, which is good.
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
Mike Wolfe
>I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
>-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
>reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
>documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
>
As hard as it is to believe they are real. I have seen them (had an old boss,
not here, who was into that sort of thing). There is a movie (which I'm sure
we'll here about from others) called "Faces Of Death", or something similar,
which you can rent at the video store. I have not seen this, but was told it
is a collection of scenes in which people were killed and it happened to be
caught on film. Again I have never seen this.
Snuff films are illegal. I doubt you will find any evidence that a particular
one is "real". If you ever see one of these "real ones", you'll know.
This stuff sickens me!
----
Mike Wolfe UUCP {uunet,att}!pdn!wolfe
PHONE 813-530-2196 DOMAIN wo...@pdn.paradyne.com
Valentino Herrera
>The movie _Steel_ with Lee Majors has footage of a man falling off a
>building superstructure several stories onto a pile of pipe. It was a stuntman
>who lost his footing during filming and he died in the fall. The producers
>got the rights from his family and from the union to use the footage in the
>film. At least this is what I heard...
Brings up an interesting point of what ACTUAL fatal accidents make it
into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Valentino Herrera Tegra/Varityper tegra!her...@ulowell.edu |
| "And the meek shall inherit s**t" |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Brian McClendon
>In <14...@harlie.tegra.COM>, her...@tegra.COM writes:
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
>>Brings up an interesting point of what ACTUAL fatal accidents make it
>>into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
>>the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
>>on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
>
>USA_, one of the stuntmen (playing a security guard) was killed during
>an explosion (an exploding van, I think -- it's been a while since I last
>saw it). The scene was not cut from the final release.
>
> Dave Dodge
> gk...@umd5.umd.edu
Also, in the paper last night it said a stuntman died in a 60ft practice
fall when he missed the air bag. No mention if it had been captured on
film or not (probably would have been in bad taste).
His credits included:
Smokey & the Bandit II
The Fall Guy
(and some other less memorable stuff).
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian McClendon b...@rudedog.SGI.COM ...!uunet!sgi!rudedog!bam 415-335-1110
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramsey Dow
>Snuff movies are not an urban ledgend. When I was a sophmore in High
>School, the in thing to do was to obtain a copy of the video "Faces of
>Death" and watch that. ( Fortunately for me, I was an 'out' kind of
>person, and never had to watch it. )
I don't consider the _Faces of Death_ trilogy to number amongst the legion
of snuff films. The _Faces of Death_ films were ``shock-value'' docu-
mentaries and not ``snuff'' films per se. Besides, the _Faces of Death_
films can be rented at a host of video chains and stores across the U.S.
True snuff films, however, are highly illegal and are obtainable only on
the video tape underground. True snuff films deal with the actual murder
of victim(s) in cold blood. The sexual quantity is, I take it, strong in
some snuff films and in the shadows in others.
--
"She said the path you walk gonna be a | Ramsey Dow, starving undergraduate
hard one to tread, `cause the night is | UUCP: ...!gatech!kd4nc!rbdc!ramsey
your only love."--Danzig, "I'm The One" | Internet: wood...@phs.bgsm.wfu.edu
David O. Dodge
[stuff deleted]
>Brings up an interesting point of what ACTUAL fatal accidents make it
>into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
>the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
>on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that in Chuck Norris' film _Invasion
Marianna Wright
>>In article <1990Sep24.1...@ecn.purdue.edu>,
>>d...@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Larry
>>> Yes, such films do exist, as someone I know has seen some. I hear a
>>> common type is a that sick/poor person sells himself to a film-maker to
>>> feed his family. Even the "Faces of Death" series could be rated as
>>> "snuff" films, perhaps. If you don't know what these are... videotapes
>>> of people/animals being killed.
>>
>>As with virtually all "snuff" films, "Faces of Death" is generally regarded
>>as being a fake. Just because it's advertised as real doesn't mean it is.
>
>FOD might be a fake, but snuff films *do* exist. For real. Some months ago,
>the headlines here in England read something like:
> "16 boys killed in snuff films"
>and went on to describe how homeless boys were lured by perverts, and later
>used as actors in snuff films, being killed in the end.
>The police has footage to prove it...
In the latest issue of Ms. magazine (the second one to come out
since it started republication, if anyone is interested in seeing the article)
it says that Therese Stanton, coordinator of the Brooklyn Women's Anti-Rape
Exchange "is documenting the fact that rapists are getting younger. Further-
more, she's hearing about 'gang rapes of high school girls thrown into
a van...a videotape running while [the rape] is happening.' Rapists now
have a profit motive, since this violent, real-life, camcorder-made porn
can be sold for $5,000. She theorizes that many of the serial killers
of prostitutes are actually snuff pornographers."
Marianna Wright Newton
Eli
>>pal...@infonode.UUCP (Chris Palmer) writes:
>>The movie _Steel_ with Lee Majors has footage of a man falling off a
>>building superstructure several stories onto a pile of pipe. It was a stuntman
>>who lost his footing during filming and he died in the fall. The producers
>>got the rights from his family and from the union to use the footage in the
>>film. At least this is what I heard...
>
>Brings up an interesting point of what ACTUAL fatal accidents make it
>into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
>the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
>on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
>
Whether it was caught on film, I don't know, but it looks that way on
one scene where a guy gets run over by the truck that Mel was driving.
Peter Reiher
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
>Brings up an interesting point of what ACTUAL fatal accidents make it
>into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
>the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
>on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
The footage of Vic Morrow's death did not make it into "The Twilight Zone:
The Motion Picture". Given that two children also died in the accident, and
that criminal trials were still in progress, including that footage would
have been a very, very bad mistake. In all recent cases I have heard of,
footage in a fiction film that includes the actual death of a participant
has only been used with permission of the deceased's next of kin. Since
the deceased were stunt men, the permission is sometimes given, allowing
the scene to serve as a final tribute to their daring.
Peter Reiher
rei...@onyx.jpl.nasa.gov
. . . cit-vax!elroy!jato!jade!reiher
Jack Campin
jane...@milton.u.washington.edu (Marianna Wright) wrote:
> Therese Stanton, coordinator of the Brooklyn Women's Anti-Rape Exchange
> van... a videotape running while [the rape] is happening.' Rapists now have
> a profit motive, since this violent, real-life, camcorder-made porn can be
> sold for $5,000.
If it's not a rude question, WHERE is she hearing about that from? Can she
provide any corroboration at all?
"Can be sold for $5000"? No doubt there are rich psychos who'd pay that,
but how would a rapist find one?
Frank Maloney
that an absolutely appalling snuff movie scene in it? The
bad guy wants to convince the good guy he means business (or
some such set up, maybe he just wants to jazz him but good).
Tricks a cyt into letting him and his evil buddies (major
hints of gays amongst them) tie her to a chair, straps a
wooden board to her chest, and then shoot him. It really was
pushing the limits on what I'll sit through. All the time
taping the whole thing. Then sends the tape to the good guy.
(Was she a girlfriend? So vague now.) Part of the horror of
it was that I as the audience couldn't believe it at first;
you saw the bullets go into the wood and yes finally had to
accept that they passed through the wood and killed the
woman. Taping was a kind leitmotiv throughout the film: long
party scene, bare tits, two women frenching, you know,
typical L.A, film at eleven, that sort of thing.
I don't ever want to see this horror again, but I wouldn't
mind someone telling me its name.
--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
Disclaimer: Microsoft doesn't even know I have 3 middle names.
"I leave you now in radiant tranquility."
rn
>into released films. The two that come to mind off hand are the guy in
>the _Ben-Hur_ chariot race that gets run over, and the helicopter falling
>on Vic Morrow in _The Twilight Zone_. Any others?
Sure, lots of'em. I've seen many scenes on TV of race cars plunging into
crowds scattering bodies hither and yon, and the evening news sometimes
has footage of planes at air shows crashing into a bunch of spectators.
Then there are all the war documentary films showing people getting shot in
battle executed by firing squads, etc. Death is a marketable resource...|-:
True snuff films, though, are of actual murders, which is a different story.
The anticipation, the screams, etc. Gah, that's enough.
I've frequently read that much of the California-based porno industry is
conrolled by organized crime, and the snuff films are one of their darker
products.
Ron Morgan
osm...@emx.utexas.edu
James D. Oliver III
>Back to fantasy: who remembers a thriller from a few years
>that an absolutely appalling snuff movie scene in it? The
>bad guy wants to convince the good guy he means business (or
>some such set up, maybe he just wants to jazz him but good).
>Tricks a cyt into letting him and his evil buddies (major
>hints of gays amongst them) tie her to a chair, straps a
>wooden board to her chest, and then shoot him.
"52 Pickup" with Roy Schieder, Ann-Margaret, John Glover (I think?) as one
of the smarmiest villains in recent memory, and Vanity. Don't remember who
played the victim. Directed by John Frankenheimer. I had a better opinion
of it than you did: Not great, but not awful, a high-class B movie. It was
based on an Elmore Leonard novel which was orginally set in Detroit, of
course filmmakers being what they are, they had to move it to L.A.
____________________________
Jim Oliver
oli...@athena.mit.edu / jol...@hstbme.mit.edu
oliver%mitwccf...@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Benjamin Harrison
>I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
>-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context. All the
>reports I have heard are anecdotal, to say the least. Is there any reliable
>documentary evidence for the existence of such films?
>
>Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks!
>
Not usually in a sexual context, but the most reliably available 'snuff'
film (meaning, yes, the people really die) is Faces of Death (I,II,III).
Including such film shots as a bomb squad tech messing up, a parachutist
landing in an aligator farm, a psycho who filmed himself killing young
women in a sexual manner -- and then got *caught* with the tapes -- neat
courtroom shot of 'objection! objection! those tapes have no bearing!',
several slaughterhouse shots, a canibalism ritual, and a firing squad.
And yes, these people all really died, but no, they were not told 'here,
let's go make a movie, and we'll kill you on film,' the movies are really
just compendiums of death footage from various places...
---Ben (be...@zip.eecs.umich.edu) Harrison---
andy
Scheider), a very slick, effective movie version of Elmore Leonard's novel.
I agree that the scene of that poor prostitute being shot on camera was one
of the most unsettling sequences in recent memory. But it was fully in keeping
with the unflinching nature of the film.
Marianna Wright
>
>jane...@milton.u.washington.edu (Marianna Wright) wrote:
>> Therese Stanton, coordinator of the Brooklyn Women's Anti-Rape Exchange
>> [...] [is] hearing about 'gang rapes of high school girls thrown into a
>> van... a videotape running while [the rape] is happening.' Rapists now have
>> a profit motive, since this violent, real-life, camcorder-made porn can be
>> sold for $5,000.
>
>If it's not a rude question, WHERE is she hearing about that from? Can she
>provide any corroboration at all?
>"Can be sold for $5000"? No doubt there are rich psychos who'd pay that,
>but how would a rapist find one?
I presume that she is hearing about it from the girls who have been
"raped and taped." In order to hold her position, I would imagine that she
has served as a counselor herself; in any case, she would certainly be
hearing about it from the counselors at the Anti-Rape Exchange.
There weren't footnotes to the article, but I'm sure that
if you contacted Stanton, she could provide some corroborating evidence.
If you're interested, I could check the article again for an address or
phone number. (This is all in the second issue of the NEW Ms. Magazine,
on the stands again, but I don't know if you can find it easily...?)
If someone has something to sell, and has connections "on the street,"
I would imagine there is a pretty good chance that they can find SOMEONE who
knows SOMEONE who knows SOMEONE who will buy it--be it stolen CD players,
crack cocaine or films of women being raped. No one ever went broke under-
estimating the taste of the American public. (As someone once said.)
Marianna Wright Newton
The Anarch
+Mail responses! MAIL MAIL MAIL!
+I will not post further on this topic here.
Oh really? After you've publicly defamed my character, I must respond
privately via e-mail? Take it and shove it Carl.
Now, where's my flame thrower? Aha, here 'tis . . .
+In article <88...@latcs1.oz.au>, step...@latcs1.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes:
++Drifter... writes:
+++ The Anarch writes:
+++ +This is one of the few subjects which I find so repulsive that I cannot
+++ +consider it for more than a few moments without feeling physically ill.
+++ I can think of things much, much worse.
++ Quite honestly, I cannot see the point in this reply. The
++only difference between the above examples [of nastiness+ and the practice
++of making snuff films is the number of lives cruelly wasted.
+
+ Yes, obviously you missed the point, though I laid it out as clearly as I
+could.
Be very sure that you haven't missed the point before you accuse
someone else of missing the point, Carl.
+ Snuff films are sick. But the original poster emphasized very strongly that
+they considered it to be *THE* worst possible thing a person could do.
Wrong. I did nothing of the sort. I believe the phrase "one of the few
subjects" immediately requires you to remove your capitalization,
emphasism and just about the entire occurence of the superlative
from your last sentence.
+This is
+simply not true. And the differences in my examples were a lot more than the
+number of people. In snuff films, someone makes it to make money. The Gaines-
+ville slasher just did it because he wanted to.
And it's better to do it for money? To have a quantifiable motive? As long
as he's got a good reason for murder, it's OK? Sheesh, Carl, you're a real
prize.
+And maybe because he wanted to terrify this city.
Oh, he did have a reason? That's better than nothing, isn't it?
+ Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
+people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
+would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
I dunno, 'you going to tell us Carl? Tell us Carl, might you have done
better?? You obviously have all the answers. Come on now, don't keep us
in suspense. . . .
++ To try and flame someone for expressing his or her
++repulsiveness towards the atrocities people inflict on
Um, I think perhaps the word that was intended was "repulsion",
my "repulsiveness" is not something I enjoy having discussed on
the air . . . But, hey, this guy was on my side . . .
++innocent victims, purely because the example he or she cites
++is of lower order of magnitude in terms of deaths, is demonstrating
++a lack of concern that is in itself frightening.
+
+ You totally misunderstood my message. I wasn't flaming them.
Oooh, no, Carl, you weren't flaming me, not at all. It's every day
that someone comes along and misinterprets what I write and
then ridicules me for it. Publicly.
+If I had, it
+would have been in mail and it would have been very offensive.
Yeah, right. So come on then Carl, it's been a while since I've had
some little jerk to get my teeth into, I'd just lurve to "correspond"
with you.
+ I disagreed with their opinion. Not with the number of deaths. You are
+jumping to conclusions.
Wrong. You decided that my opinion was something you disagreed with and
then argued against it. The psychologists call it projection, although,
under these circumstances, "blind stupidity" might be more apt.
+ Newsworthiness never entered the matter.
Of course not, that's why you picked some of the most publicized attrocities
this century . . .
+There are the motivations and morals to take
+into account.
There is also net.etiquette. I expect a full apology (or a great time
ripping you to shreds via e-mail).
+Snuff films are nasty, and illegal, and the people that make them
+should be lobotimized or executed if caught.
Ahah. Here comes the full-scale hypocrisy - If you kill him, we'll
kill you, which makes us better than you. Oh boy, let's all fight over
capital punishment now. (Wow, this could turn into a full scale
yelling match, yeow!)
+But they are not the most vile example of inhumanity out there.
Hands up who said they were. Nope. Not a paw in sight. You lose, Carl.
+ Despite what you may want to think, it is not a black/white judgement.
Hmmm, I always fancied a nice deep, high-altitude, sky blue myself.
+ CARL%NUCENG...@PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU - "Here, have a scooby snack."
+*DISCLAIMER* - My messages have NOTHING to do with the UF and/or the Nuclear
+ Engineering Department. And vice versa.
Uhuh, so you thing that the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong,
but you *will* help work on the facilities that much more of such
possible. Carl, you're truly rich, I luv ya baby.
P.S. I don't normally read this group, a friend sent me a copy of
Carl's first outpourings of drivel on this subject, I was going to
reply via e-mail, but then he did it again. Apologies to the mentally
competent people out there.
--
Tim Abbott | "out there in the darkness, out there in the night
Astronomy, UTexas Austin | out there in the starlight, one soul burns
tm...@astro.as.utexas.edu | brighter than a thousand suns." - Simple Minds
Michael Steets
In article <1990Sep24.1...@ecn.purdue.edu>,
d...@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Larry Weeks) writes:
|>
|> Yes, such films do exist, as someone I know has seen some. I hear a
|> common type is a that sick/poor person sells himself to a film-maker
to
|> feed his family. Even the "Faces of Death" series could be rated as
|> "snuff" films, perhaps. If you don't know what these are...
videotapes
|> of people/animals being killed. A monkey in Asia with his head in a
|> hole in the table, and people taking turns hitting him on the head
|> with a small mallet until he is dead, and then being served the
brains
|> (a delicacy), a man being mauled and killed by bear, vehicle
accidents,
|> murders, etc... And I've even heard of films where they hire porn
|> actors, who are not privy to the fact that they are in a "snuff" film
|> until they ARE snuffed, as the orginal poster says. Urban rumor? I
|> only hope so. It's a sick world.
|>
Come on. Let's end the discussion about "faces of death". I saw it and
it doesn't have to do something with snuff movies. It's "only" a
bad "documentary" movie, maybe fake or not. (A piece of bad taste,
of course). But no MAN in this movie was killed especially for it
which would be the subject of a snuff movie. That is the fact.
-----------------
Michael Steets
Informatik IV
University of Dortmund
D-4600 Dortmund
West Germany
Ron Rejmaniak
>>
>>jane...@milton.u.washington.edu (Marianna Wright) wrote:
>>> Therese Stanton, coordinator of the Brooklyn Women's Anti-Rape Exchange
>>> [...] [is] hearing about 'gang rapes of high school girls thrown into a
>>> van... a videotape running while [the rape] is happening.' Rapists now have
>>> a profit motive, since this violent, real-life, camcorder-made porn can be
>>> sold for $5,000.
>>
>>If it's not a rude question, WHERE is she hearing about that from? Can she
>>provide any corroboration at all?
>>"Can be sold for $5000"? No doubt there are rich psychos who'd pay that,
>>but how would a rapist find one?
>
> I presume that she is hearing about it from the girls who have been
>"raped and taped." In order to hold her position, I would imagine that she
>has served as a counselor herself; in any case, she would certainly be
>hearing about it from the counselors at the Anti-Rape Exchange.
>There weren't footnotes to the article, but I'm sure that
>if you contacted Stanton, she could provide some corroborating evidence.
>If you're interested, I could check the article again for an address or
>phone number. (This is all in the second issue of the NEW Ms. Magazine,
>on the stands again, but I don't know if you can find it easily...?)
I would be interested in this information for the urban.rumors group.
e-mail me at go...@buengc.bu.edu. I didn't post the original request for this
information but everything related is "friend of a friend", "read it a
newspaper" (many urban rumors are spread this way), or a fake (such as FACES
of DEATH and SNUFF:the movie). No concrete proof of their existance has been
relayed in the media.
> If someone has something to sell, and has connections "on the street,"
>I would imagine there is a pretty good chance that they can find SOMEONE who
>knows SOMEONE who knows SOMEONE who will buy it--be it stolen CD players,
>crack cocaine or films of women being raped. No one ever went broke under-
>estimating the taste of the American public. (As someone once said.)
The quote was "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence
of the American public."
I'm not saying that these films don't exist but they still have all
the trapings of an urban rumor scare story. Many stories relayed to the net
mentioned "rich people" or "Americans/New Yorkers" doing this to foriegners
as relayed by foriegners or "South Americans" doing this as relayed by
Americans. Some killers have been rumored to tapes of their victims but these
haven't been shown to be sold. A person committing murder on film has set
himself or herself up with the most damaging evidence against them. Propagation
of such footage would be very risky. Child molesters have been caught with
tapes of them committing the crime and such news (specific names and footage)
have made it into the press and on the air. The story of SNUFF is just too
shocking for the media not to exploit it should such footage arise.
>Marianna Wright Newton
>
-Ron Rejmaniak
whit...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> Not usually in a sexual context, but the most reliably available 'snuff'
> film (meaning, yes, the people really die) is Faces of Death (I,II,III).
> Including such film shots as a bomb squad tech messing up, a parachutist
> landing in an aligator farm, a psycho who filmed himself killing young
> women in a sexual manner -- and then got *caught* with the tapes -- neat
> courtroom shot of 'objection! objection! those tapes have no bearing!',
> several slaughterhouse shots, a canibalism ritual, and a firing squad.
>
> And yes, these people all really died, but no, they were not told 'here,
> let's go make a movie, and we'll kill you on film,' the movies are really
> just compendiums of death footage from various places...
The footage in Faces of Death are (for the most part) faked. "Dr. Gross"
doesn't exist. The films are meant to have a documentary quality, but most
of them are rather badly executed (pun? What pun?). In between the faked
stuff is actual documentary footage of things like public executions and
slaughterhouses, not to mention the occasional animal torture sequence
(like the monkey in the first one).
Nonetheless, most of the "amazing, unbelievable" home movies of people
being eaten by bears and things like that are faked. The real point behind
all of it is to exploit human perversity and make a few bucks. Seems to
work (thus the sequels).
- Amy
Paultje Bakker
>My urban legend is that I heard that some folklore people tried to do a
>serious investigation into snuff films. They could not find one. They
>found films which claimed to be snuff films, but concluded they were all
>similuated. No real evidence of an actual snuff film was found.
>
all the hallmarks of an Urban Legend. People have read about them in
the papers; they have heard that they are available in `underground'
circles; they know someone (who knows someone..) who claims to have seen one.
BUT, no one yet has actually seen one.
Before this thread arose, I had no reason to doubt their existence;
now I'm pretty sure they're a myth.
Maybe the human race isn't as base as we seem to think.....
paultje
bak...@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au
--
Paul Bakker | Internet bak...@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au
Dept of Computer Science| Bitnet: bakker%batserver....@uunet.uu.net
Uni of Qld | JANET: bakker%batserver....@uk.ac.ukc
Australia | EAN: bak...@batserver.cs.uq.oz
Mike Prather
>In article <17...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> to...@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) writes:
>>I have heard references in several places to SNUFF movies, where people are
>>-- allegedly -- actually killed, usually in a sexual context.
>
>film (meaning, yes, the people really die) is Faces of Death (I,II,III).
Faces of Death is not a snuff movie, as I understand them. Snuff movies are
pornos which contain hardcore sex AND the actual murder of the (generally)
female participant. An example snuff film scene might be: Two people are
having sex when, during the physical act, the man begins to strangle the
woman. He continues to do so until she is dead, possibly continuing to
screw her as well. Snuff films might be considered the ultimate form of
sadism/violence in movies. And, part of the definition of a snuff movie,
the murder in the film is real.
BTW, I've never seen one of these films, and I'm really not sure where I
got this information. I think, however, that snuff films are
mentioned in an R-rated movie called Hardcore, where a preacher's daughter
gets caught up in pornos, and he goes to rescue her. I think that I've
heard snuff films being mentioned in the news also. The usual victims
of snuff films are prostitutes, I believe.
Mike
--
===========================================================================
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
mi...@mcs213k.cs.umr.edu Standard Disclaimer
===========================================================================
Laurence Doering
>
> The footage in Faces of Death are (for the most part) faked...
> - Amy
I dunno - I saw number 2 and everything looked relatively unfaked. (Fishing
the body of a drowning victim out of the water, etc.) Of course, several
sequences in #2 featured people who didn't actually get killed, like the
stuntman who tried to jump the St. Lawrence River in a rocket-powered car
that came apart after it went off the ramp.
On another subject, how about a new thread? Titles of cult movies that
*should* be made, if they haven't been already? My nominations:
Nazi Love Motel
Space Sluts in the Slammer
Cloyd Goodrum
I've always thought it would be real hoot to film somebody
stuffing Copenhagen in their lip and sell it as a "snuff" movie.
colloid
--
Cloyd Goodrum III " I've never held an ocean
UNCC Computer Science Department In the palm of my hand "
Charlotte, N.C. -- Nick Drake
Mike Prather
>At the end of the first Faces of Death, there is a quick blurb that
>certain parts of the film were re-enactments of true incidents. I'm
>assuming that all of them are the same way.
>
>mike
There are parts of the movie that would HAVE to be reenactments. For example,
in the scene where the guy fell down in the cave. It should be obvious from
the camera angles that the actual cave search was a re-enactment. Otherwise,
I could just hear a director saying, "Eh, hold on there sheriff, don't go and
rescue that guy just yet. I want to climb ahead of you and set up some really
creative shots..."
However, I don't think the rest of the movie is faked. Some sections are, but
I think the rest is real. I don't know why they'd fake it, after all, when
the L.A. coroner DOES exist, executions DO happen, etc.
I think the movie is genuine: Re-enactments being mixed with
real-life gore.
Frank Taylor
>BTW, I've never seen one of these films, and I'm really not sure where I
>got this information. I think, however, that snuff films are
>mentioned in an R-rated movie called Hardcore, where a preacher's daughter
>gets caught up in pornos, and he goes to rescue her. I think that I've
>heard snuff films being mentioned in the news also. The usual victims
>of snuff films are prostitutes, I believe.
I believe that either the book or movie version of _Less_Than_Zero has
a detailed explanation of snuff films. They are apparently available
only on the black market. The child pornography underground is
apparently connected.
--
***************************************************************************
There was Eru, the One uunet!tellab5!wheaton!ftaylor Frank Taylor
who in Arda is called Wheaton College
Illuvatar. -- Music of the Ainur Class of '91
Michael Winston Woodring
Scott Gray
around some of our local video stores called "SNUFF". Pretty original
title, eh? Anyway, it is in one of those boxes that say "Banned in
200 countries, and 21 states" -- you know what I mean. Supposedly, the
scene at the end is an actual murder/dismemberment of a women, I hear it
is quite grusome. From the looks of the movie it is pretty obvious that
all of the footage, other than the actual murder, were thrown together
in order to fill in the hour and a half. The first half hour was
so bad that I couldn't sit through it, so I really can't tell you
how realistic the ending is or not, though my friend said it's disgusting.
By the way, the movie doesn't have any credits on it, or on the box.
'Think it's real?
Scott Gray
Tracy D. Flynn-Marsh
In doing research about 7 years ago for my thesis on child abuse, with a
heavy lean toward pornography and similar ventures, I discovered snuff.
It made me so ill I had to force myself back to it between races to the
bathroom. While many of snuff's victims are sexually abused before dying,
the majority *are not*. The degradation, torture and death are most often
enacted on a fully-clothed "actor" and that last act is where a lot of
missing children end up when their usefulness as prostitutes and child
"models" has ended.
One source in particular cited the purchase of children across the
Mexican border...it seems people in limos with special hidden compartments
will go over and offer to "adopt" a child or two from a poor, large family;
the parents, seeing the car and being offered money by people who are
obviously from the US are often tempted to allow their child(ren) the
opportunity for a better life. The kids get smuggled across and are
never heard from again, outside the secret dens of the rich and warped.
I *saw* a little, blond boy, about 2, get killed on a tape that was
confiscated by local police. A close friend's father was the chief and,
considering the research he knew I was doing, he allowed me to see it.
The poor thing was dismembered by "mommy" and "daddy", who eventually
killed him by dropping a huge glass ashtray on his head.
It happens.
I'll post my sources as soon as I get off the computer...I've buried that
paper deep, and don't dig it up often.
Tracy
James Wiggs
>
> Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
>
I realize that this is a very volatile subject, and I am inviting flames
by saying this, but the answer to your question is: "yes, Yes, YES!"
I know men who were officers and enlisted men in the Pacific during WWII
and despite what a lot of historians are now saying, there WAS an invasion
planned for the Japanese mainland; these men were gearing up for it and they
were terrified of the prospect. They had seen the cold courage of the
Japanese in battle, and the idea of invading the mainland was one that they
(particularly the officers, who knew some of the details, and how many men
would die) did not want to consider. They estimated that the death toll
would be over 1 MILLION among the invaders and *several times that* among the
defenders. It was going to make the fiercest of the earlier battles look
like tea time by comparison.
Also, every defender with a .30 carbine round in his/her guts (the women
were expected to fight every bit as fiercely as the men) and every invader
with a 6.5 Naambu round in the same place would have died a death just as
agonizing as the people who died of radiation burns and poisoning in the
aftermath of the bombings, and infinitely worse than those who were at ground
zero.
Yes, the bombings were two of the most terrifying events in human history,
but the alternative would have been much, much worse.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> CARL%NUCENG...@PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU - "Here, have a scooby snack."
James Wiggs, Convex System Administrator, UW Chemistry Department
Anyone who wants my opinions is welcome to 'em. The department sure doesn't.
Marianna Wright
>>In article <64...@vanuata.cs.glasgow.ac.uk> ja...@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>>jane...@milton.u.washington.edu (Marianna Wright) wrote:
>>>> Therese Stanton, coordinator of the Brooklyn Women's Anti-Rape Exchange
>>>> [...] [is] hearing about 'gang rapes of high school girls thrown into a
>>>> van... a videotape running while [the rape] is happening.' Rapists now have
>>>> a profit motive, since this violent, real-life, camcorder-made porn can be
>>>> sold for $5,000.
>>>If it's not a rude question, WHERE is she hearing about that from? Can she
>>>provide any corroboration at all?
>>>"Can be sold for $5000"? No doubt there are rich psychos who'd pay that,
>>>but how would a rapist find one?
>>
>> I presume that she is hearing about it from the girls who have been
>>"raped and taped." In order to hold her position, I would imagine that she
>>has served as a counselor herself; in any case, she would certainly be
>>hearing about it from the counselors at the Anti-Rape Exchange.
>>There weren't footnotes to the article, but I'm sure that
>>if you contacted Stanton, she could provide some corroborating evidence.
>>If you're interested, I could check the article again for an address or
>>phone number. (This is all in the second issue of the NEW Ms. Magazine,
>>on the stands again, but I don't know if you can find it easily...?)
*I would be interested in this information for the urban.rumors group.
*e-mail me at go...@buengc.bu.edu. I didn't post the original request for this
*information but everything related is "friend of a friend", "read it a
*newspaper" (many urban rumors are spread this way), or a fake (such as FACES
*of DEATH and SNUFF:the movie). No concrete proof of their existance has been
*relayed in the media.
[stuff deleted]
*I'm not saying that these films don't exist but they still have all
*the trapings of an urban rumor scare story. Many stories relayed to the net
*mentioned "rich people" or "Americans/New Yorkers" doing this to foriegners
*as relayed by foriegners or "South Americans" doing this as relayed by
*Americans. Some killers have been rumored to tapes of their victims but these
*haven't been shown to be sold. A person committing murder on film has set
*himself or herself up with the most damaging evidence against them. Propagation
*of such footage would be very risky. Child molesters have been caught with
*tapes of them committing the crime and such news (specific names and footage)
*have made it into the press and on the air. The story of SNUFF is just too
*shocking for the media not to exploit it should such footage arise.
There have been other postings since Ron's that have perhaps answered his
question (Do snuff films actually exist?) but I wanted to add that I found
a citation in one of the other articles in the second issue of the new
Ms. Magazine. The article is called "Femicide: Speaking the Unspeakable,"
by Professors Jane Caputi and Diana E.H. Russell. They cite the following
case: "Teenager Shirley Ledford screamed for mercy while Roy Norris and
Lawrence Bittaker of Los Angeles raped and mutilated her with a pair of
locking pliers, hit her with a sledgehammer, and jabbed her in the ear
with an ice pick. The men audiotaped the torture femicide from beginning
to end." Caputi is an Associate Professor of American Studies at the
University of New Mexico and is the author of "The Age of Sex Crime," a
feminist study of serial sex murder (Bowling Green State University
Popular Press). Russell is author of several books on violence against
women, including the forthcoming "Femicide: The Politics of Women-Killing."
Ron is correct in saying that it is a pretty stupid idea for someone
to video tape him/herself committing a crime, but you have to be pretty
warped to commit such a crime in the first place--it isn't a question of
logic anymore.
Marianna Wright Newton
Tom Gray
<In article <0093D341...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu> ca...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu (Drifter...) writes:
<>
<> Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
<>people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
<>would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
<>
<
< I realize that this is a very volatile subject, and I am inviting flames
<by saying this, but the answer to your question is: "yes, Yes, YES!"
< I know men who were officers and enlisted men in the Pacific during WWII
<and despite what a lot of historians are now saying, there WAS an invasion
When the Japanese peace negotiators left Japan to atten the first surrender
conference in the Phillipines, they were required to use a specific type
of airplane marked with green crosses. As they left the vicinity
of the airport, they saw two squadrons of fighters in the distance.
They were relieved when they discerned that these were American and not
Japanese aircraft. There were strong elements of the Japanese military and
government who wished to fight to the end even after the ataomic attacks.
Only the unprecedentd intervention of the Emperor in the matter tipped the
balance. Even then there was a tradition that althought the Emperor spoke
for the nation, he could be deceived by false advisors and that it was
the duty of his military servants to protect him from this advaice.
The American military had witnessed a horrific spectacle after the
battle for Saipan. Japanese civilians rather than surrendering hurled themselves
of clifs into the sea. Japanese speaking soldiers called out to them
with loud speakers assuring them that they would be well treated.
This was to no avail. Mothers would leap from the cliffs with their
babies in their arms. This was at a small island in the South
Pacific. What awaited the Japanese defeat in their homeland?
Jack Campin
jane...@milton.u.washington.edu (Marianna Wright) wrote:
> a citation in one of the other articles in the second issue of the new
> Ms. Magazine. The article is called "Femicide: Speaking the Unspeakable,"
> by Professors Jane Caputi and Diana E.H. Russell. They cite the following
> case: "Teenager Shirley Ledford screamed for mercy while Roy Norris and
> Lawrence Bittaker of Los Angeles raped and mutilated her with a pair of
> locking pliers, hit her with a sledgehammer, and jabbed her in the ear
> with an ice pick. The men audiotaped the torture femicide from beginning
> to end."
This STILL isn't an example of a snuff tape. As I pointed out in an
earlier article in this thread, there have certainly been cases of people
taping killings for their own use, dating back to Ian Brady and Myra
Hindley in England 20 years ago (the tapes were used in evidence at their
trial), and a recent English case had a video used the same way.
But snuff movies are supposed to be COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS, articles of trade,
and the original stories about them claimed that they were conventionally
plotted films up to where the victim found out it was for real. I haven't
seen a scrap of evidence that anyone has ever sold any kind of snuff movie
and certainly no evidence that anything as elaborate as the ones described
around 1980 has ever existed. If they DID exist, someone has the burden of
proof to show why every single copy vanished in the intervening ten years.
Scruffy prints of conventional porno films from that period are still in
circulation; a snuff movie would make a good commercial proposition to copy
and market, so why don't they turn up all the time in verifiable public
locations? Hell, I see ordinary porn videos for sale in flea markets every
weekend.
Mike Cerreto
>In article <0093D341...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu>, ca...@robot.nuceng.ufl.edu (Drifter...) writes:
>> Hiroshima was bombed simply to end a war a bit early. Were the number of
>> people killed in the two nuclear blasts less than the number of people who
>> would have died if the war had gone on for another year or so?
>
>are not aware of the terrible choice that Harry Truman faced when deciding
>to use the bomb on Japan. The clinching point was that casualty estimates
>for a complete invasion of Japan would run well into the millions when both
>US forces and Japanese civilians were taken into account. A Japanese
>invasion was expected to be a bloody, house-to-house fight that could easily
>take more than a year.
>
> Bombing Japan was not a simple decision. It was done to end a war
>with a minimum number of casualties for both sides. This proved to be
>true, since I think total casualties for both bombs were under 100,000, and
>certainly far less than 1,000,000. Don't believe that the use of nuclear
>weapons was done in a cavalier, gee-whiz manner.
>
It's outrageous how eager some people are to spew out the
same old party line that they've been preached all their lives without
even the most remote attempt to engage their brain and actually do
some independent thinking.
This guy probably subscribes to the John Wayne school of
the history of the West and the treatment of Native Americans.
_______________________________________________________________
What do you mean, "Don't take it personally" ??
How should I take it, As a group???
Michael Cerreto BBN Cambridge, MA, USA
_______________________________________________________________