JOY LUCK CLUB: Why no Academy Award nominations?
C. Duff
nominations for the Academy Awards? I remember Siskel and Ebert (movie
critics, for those who are not familiar with those names) saying that
the worst nomination for the 1994 Oscars was the supporting actress
nomination for Holly Hunter in "The Firm." After all, she had already
received the best actress nomination for "The Piano." They felt that at
least one supporting actress nomination should have gone to one of the
actresses in "Joy Luck Club."
So, my big question is: Why was "Joy Luck Club" NOT nominated for a single
award (that I know of)?
JCD
Dong Xiao
What's wrong with Holly Hunter? I was so impressed by her performance
in "Broadcase News" that I thought even a few more awards wouldn't
overstate her talent. She's a better actress than Judie Foster in that
type of roles. The actresses in Joy Luck Club are great, professional
and impressive too. The problem is that none of them is better than the
others in that film. It seems though that the movie collected all the
good Asian actresses in the field. All of them are familiar faces who
played major supporting roles in at least one major Holleywood movies.
Ed Suranyi
>award (that I know of)?
There is no "reason", aside from the obvious one that not enough people
voted for it. Many people were indeed surprised, but there are surprises
in the nominations every single year. I think what you really want to
know is whether there was a conspiracy to keep the movie from being
nominated. I doubt it. There are more than 5,000 members of the
Academy, and they certainly do not get together to decide whom to
vote for. It just happened.
There is one possible contributing factor, which boils down to human
nature. Most of the actresses in the film were not only completely
unknown (this is a disadvantage, but certainly not a fatal one), but
I can imagine it might have been hard for the voters to remember who
played which role. Movies with a large ensemble of players, all of
whose roles are fairly similar in importance, generally do not do
well with actor/actress nominations. Those were the particular
nominations lots of people were expecting for "The Joy Luck Club."
Tingli Pan
Ed Suranyi <e...@wente.llnl.gov> wrote:
>In article <2ppuke$7...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> cd...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
>(C. Duff) writes:
>>So, my big question is: Why was "Joy Luck Club" NOT nominated for a single
>>award (that I know of)?
>
>nature. Most of the actresses in the film were not only completely
>unknown (this is a disadvantage, but certainly not a fatal one), but
>I can imagine it might have been hard for the voters to remember who
>played which role. Movies with a large ensemble of players, all of
>whose roles are fairly similar in importance, generally do not do
>well with actor/actress nominations. Those were the particular
>nominations lots of people were expecting for "The Joy Luck Club."
>
all of them did well. And all of them have similar importance in the
movie, it is hard to pick up one from them.
But I think the lost of "Farewell my Concunbine" is a suprise.
Tingli Pan
dlt...@csupomona.edu
Stuff deleted)>
> There is one possible contributing factor, which boils down to human
> nature. Most of the actresses in the film were not only completely
> unknown (this is a disadvantage, but certainly not a fatal one), but
> I can imagine it might have been hard for the voters to remember who
> played which role. Movies with a large ensemble of players, all of
> whose roles are fairly similar in importance, generally do not do
> well with actor/actress nominations. Those were the particular
> nominations lots of people were expecting for "The Joy Luck Club."
>
> Ed
> e...@wente.llnl.gov
>
>
On a tangent, I was wondering if anyone found the "players" confusing.
After I saw JLC for the first time, I knew each character by name ( well at
least each daughter by name, and each mother by relationship and story)
I found very little confusion between characters. Under many other
circumstances I have been confused, however the charcters in JLC seemed
distinct. I was wondering if Asians in general had a clearer perception
of asian characters (ie. Do the characters seem indistinct for people of
non-asian background)
I was also curious if non-asians felt the same empathy witht the characters
on the screen as AA's did. Most of my friends are of asian heritage, and
each of them related to me how they could see their lives echoed on the
screen.
Well, just something to think about. Please reply if you have an opinion on
this.. Thanks
D. Tung
Bruce: I forgot something.
Linda: What?
Bruce: I forgot to say I love you.
Linda: I think thats the first time you've ever said that to me.
Bruce: Yeah, but I meant it every day.
Dragon!!! Dragon!!! Dragon!!!
>
John Chueng-Hsien Lin
Here is my opinion. The film occasionally sacrifices "reality" for
"visual and dramatic effects". While I was watching the movie, I
shouted "this is so fake! this will never happen in a Chinese
culture!" to my friend next to me. For example, one scene shows a
mother in a kitchen preparing meals. She has a apron on. Now, look at
what she is wearing: a pair of high-heels! Is this possible for a
traditional Chinese mother at that time? You go ask your mother.
That may be Oliver Stone's fault. :-)
John Lin (l...@cs.purdue.edu)
John Chueng-Hsien Lin
Here is my opinion. The film occasionally sacrifices "reality" for
Lenny Eng
: I thought "Joy Luck Club" was a great movie. Why did it not receive
: JCD
The studio (Disney/Touchstone) claimed that there were just too many good
actress in the movie vying for the nomincation, so none was nominated.
I though that was pretty lame excuse. Don't really know if there is any
racial motive here (not from Disney anyway). In general, and this is not
sour grape, the majority of oscar nominated films I rarely care for, I'm more
into the "Silence of the Lamb" type. Look how long it took Spielburg to win
one. I think T-Rex should be nomincated for Best Actor, and Beauty should be
the best Actress, and Aladin the Best Film. Take that, Hollywood.
Lenny
Jose E Rodriguez
>award (that I know of)?
>
>JCD
Because the academy is ran by a bunch of old stuffy farts who only nominate
"expected" movies.
How else would you explain no nominations for Mambo Kings or Do the Right
Thing?
Michael Atherton
|> >
|> On a tangent, I was wondering if anyone found the "players" confusing.
|> After I saw JLC for the first time, I knew each character by name ( well at
|> least each daughter by name, and each mother by relationship and story)
|> I found very little confusion between characters. Under many other
|> circumstances I have been confused, however the charcters in JLC seemed
|> distinct. I was wondering if Asians in general had a clearer perception
|> of asian characters (ie. Do the characters seem indistinct for people of
|> non-asian background)
I couldn't keep all the characters straight. I also have problems with
their names. I think that you're right in assuming that having
an Asian background would help you remember the details in the film.
In fact this has been shown to be true in Psychological memory
research (I can provide references if you'd like).
|> I was also curious if non-asians felt the same empathy witht the characters
|> on the screen as AA's did. Most of my friends are of asian heritage, and
|> each of them related to me how they could see their lives echoed on the
|> screen.
Well I cried a lot, but there's no way I can tell if I felt the
*same* empathy that you did. I'm sure that I missed a lot of
the subtle things that you picked up. When I saw "Farewell My Concubine"
I could tell that I was missing a lot of the symbolism.
Mike
PS: Hey! I went to Cal Poly
Shih Fong Chia
[deleted stuff]
>There is one possible contributing factor, which boils down to human
>nature. Most of the actresses in the film were not only completely
>unknown (this is a disadvantage, but certainly not a fatal one), but
>I can imagine it might have been hard for the voters to remember who
>played which role.
I know that at least 4 of women in the mother-daughter pairs have done
quite a bit of work(that I know of).
Tamlyn Tomita(Waverly)-"Come See The Paradise," "Karate Kid Part III,"
"Babylon 5: Original Series Pilot," and others that I don't remember.
Tsai Chin(Lindo)-She is a stage and screen actress that "has starred
opposite the likes of Ingrid Bergman and Anthony Hopkins."(A. Magazine,V.3,N.1)
Ming-Na Wen(June)-She did many Broadway musicals in the east coast.
She had a part in the Action Pack Series "Vanishing Sons" also with Russel
Wong. She was on three seasons of "As The World Turns."(Transpacific,April `94)
Rosalind Chao(?)-She did many movies including "Thousand pieces of
Gold," some network movie this week, and others that I can't recall at this
moment. She is now on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and was in Star Trek: The
Next Generation.
>Movies with a large ensemble of players, all of
>whose roles are fairly similar in importance, generally do not do
>well with actor/actress nominations. Those were the particular
>nominations lots of people were expecting for "The Joy Luck Club."
I thought the performances were ok. I thought that they should've cut
it into four different movies to explore each of the mother-daughter pair
better. It kinda got choppy and short at the last two stories with Rosalind
Chao and Lauren Tom. It was just too short a time to convey the emotions of
the stories. It's a pretty good movie. I feel that JLC or "Farewell My
Concubine should have won the Oscar. I thought Ming-Na Wen's performance was
better than the other daughters.
Mark S.
--
* All thoughts, all passions, all delights, | Mark Fong Chia Shih *
* Whatever stirs this mortal frame, | ms...@acsu.buffalo.edu *
* All are but ministers of Love, |==========================*
* And feed his sacred flame. |==========================*
ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu
Asian men have twisted minds and degenerate moralities. They don't take
good of their women. In fact, they often abuse their women. So an Asian
female is a victim, and like Andromeda, is desperately waiting for her
rescuer to save her. The Perseus in most cases is a white male. In short,
here is the Hollywood stereotype of Asians (strongly enforced by the
infamous "Joy Luck Club"):
(1) Asian men are abusers of their women.
(2) Asian women are victims of such abuses.
(3) White men are rescuers of the abused Asian women.
I would very much like this embarrassment to stop but unless trash like "Joy
Luck Club" or "Tai Pan" (starring Joan Chen) cease to attract enthusiasm from
an ignorant audience and praise from biased critics, this bigotry is still
going to exist for a long, long time. Producers like Oliver Stone will
continue to crank out more garbage in which Asians are portrayed as what most
westerners THINK they OUGHT to be.
This kind of ludicrous stereotype of Asians must stop. I don't have a problem
with white men having intimacy with our women -- it is not my business to look
into whom you date and marry. But please, don't make up those kind of rubbish
that we don't take good care of our women. For that Mr. Oliver Stone has lost
all of my respect and I now consider him as a racist pig. A question for you
to pound on before I depart: How many Asian men in "Joy Luck Club" are kind,
loving people?
It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
mine. Your comments are welcome.
Peace.
Zheng.
James Wang
<ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu> wrote:
>I found that Hollywood almost always portray Asians in the following way:
[ stereotype depiction deleted ]
>It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
>mine. Your comments are welcome.
i found the role of the Andrew Wong in JLC particularly ironic.
he broke the asexual stereotype that was once prevalent for
asian actors, only to be typecast into another flat and crude
character. instead of being embarassed by the dig-into-watermelon-
with-overbearing-sexual-overtones scene, i had to stop myself
from laughing at the absurdity of the writing and direction.
the existence of newsgroups such as alt.asian-movies is evident
of the state of hollywood, where budget-heavy productions are
desparately outdone by simpler and more heart-felt pieces year
after year.
(little tokyo)
>circumstances I have been confused, however the charcters in JLC seemed
>distinct. I was wondering if Asians in general had a clearer perception
>of asian characters (ie. Do the characters seem indistinct for people of
>non-asian background)
this movie was totally awesome. even my mom (very similar to
Lindo in the movie) could fully understand the movie. we all
enjoyed it! but one of my friends (also an asian) got a bit
confused b/w the different characters and scenes in the movie.
maybe it has something to do with me being an asian. so that
i can distinquish b/w the 'faces' better than non-asians. :)
i also thought the casts were great. i like to watch actors/
actresses that i never seen before. not the same old JoePesci
in millions of different movies. some casts were familiar to
me: the piano teacher, the father of the narrator...
>I was also curious if non-asians felt the same empathy witht the characters
>on the screen as AA's did. Most of my friends are of asian heritage, and
>each of them related to me how they could see their lives echoed on the
>screen.
the theme this movie portraits doesn't really relate to me
personally as much as my cousins. it is because i got here
(in the u.s.) when i was 13. my cousins were born here! when
my uncle/aunt went to see this movie, they felt extremely
touched and emotional at the end. many people shed tears when
they left the theater.
1 other thing regarding the movie:
was waverly(lindo's daughter) japanese in real life?
her real name is: Tamlyn Tomita.
i also wondered if the last names of the daughter
in the movie are their orig ones or their maiden names?
_ _
| || |
| || |_ _ please send all e-mails to:
| __ | | | to...@u.washington.edu
/ __||_|_|
.-. \/ / .-. _
: : \_____/ .' `.:_;
.--. .--. : `-. .--. .--.`. .'.-. .--. ,-.,-.
`._-.'' '_.'' .; :' .; ; `._-.': : : :' .; ; : ,. :
`.__.'`.__.'`.__.'`.__,_;`.__.':_; :_;`.__,_;:_;:_;
Niklas Pivic
men - a small jury... It's so ridiculous!!! ARGH!
Yardena Arar
>So, my big question is: Why was "Joy Luck Club" NOT nominated for a single
>award (that I know of)?
"The Joy Luck Club" did get a nomination -- best screenplay based on material
from another medium, for Amy Tan and Ron Bass.
But I agree with you about the film generally being overlooked by the academy.
--
Yardena Arar de...@netcom.com
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -- "Unforgiven"
Phil Kim
>>award (that I know of)?
>
>"The Joy Luck Club" did get a nomination -- best screenplay based on material
>from another medium, for Amy Tan and Ron Bass.
>
>But I agree with you about the film generally being overlooked by the academy.
No, The Joy Luck Club did not get a nomination for the Best Adapted Screenplay.
It got ZERO nomination, as with Much Ado About Nothing.
--
Phil "laser-mania" Kim
ki...@rpi.edu
Laserdisc software and hardware articles available (finger me for detail)
Rick Heli
I'm not even sure that they had 5 nominations in that category.
Chiung-I Hwang
There are more in Asian women than respectable, devoted, suffering mothers and wives.
Hwang
Shih Fong Chia
> <ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu> wrote:
>>I found that Hollywood almost always portray Asians in the following way:
>[ stereotype depiction deleted ]
>>It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
>>mine. Your comments are welcome.
>i found the role of the Andrew Wong in JLC particularly ironic.
I think you are talking about Russel Wong. Not Andrew Wong.
>he broke the asexual stereotype that was once prevalent for
>asian actors, only to be typecast into another flat and crude
>character. instead of being embarassed by the dig-into-watermelon-
>with-overbearing-sexual-overtones scene, i had to stop myself
>from laughing at the absurdity of the writing and direction.
>the existence of newsgroups such as alt.asian-movies is evident
>of the state of hollywood, where budget-heavy productions are
>desparately outdone by simpler and more heart-felt pieces year
>after year.
I agree. I tend to watch Hong Kong movies more than I do American
movies. I plan to watch a lot more HK movies when I get home. I think I'll just
ignore the "blockbusters" of the summer and check out HK movies.
Ed Suranyi
>What about a nomination for Best Adapted Screenplay at least?
>I'm not even sure that they had 5 nominations in that category.
They most certainly did have five nominations in the category of
Best Adapted Screenplay. In fact, this category was generally considered
one of the hardest to get into, because there were so many good candidates
this year. The nominees were:
The Age of Innocence
In the Name of the Father
The Remains of the Day
Schindler's List [the winner]
Shadowlands.
Ed Suranyi
>Because the academy is ran by a bunch of old stuffy farts who only nominate
>"expected" movies.
>How else would you explain no nominations for Mambo Kings or Do the Right
>Thing?
Just for the record, Mambo Kings did receive one nomination: For Best
Song, "Beautiful Maria of my Soul". Placido Domingo sang it at the
awards ceremony. Also, Danny Aiello was nominated for Best Supporting
Actor for Do the Right Thing.
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>writes:
>
>Possilbely...these stereotypes are portrayed because in Asian culture
>women do not have equality with men. I don't claim to be an expert
>on Asian culture, but I would like to point out that "Joy Luck Club"
>was written by an Asian woman. Also, "Raise the Red Lantern" depicts
More probably, these stereotypes are portrayed because people *think* that
in 'Asian culture' (that phrase itself is meaningless -- there IS no
monolithic 'Asian culture'), women do not have equality with men. (I will
not argue that this is false, but certainly in the US, women do not have
equality with men and yet there are many portrayals of sensitive, whatever
men in American media) -- AND that people think that this applies to
Asian *American* men. It does not.
As another point, probably the worst husband of the lot in Joy Luck Club
was the accountant, played by an Asian American male. In the book, this
person was a white American man. Now tell me, why is such a change in the
text appropriate and why was it made?
Peace.
Steve Wei
a wong
: I found that Hollywood almost always portray Asians in the following way:
: Asian men have twisted minds and degenerate moralities. They don't take
: good of their women. In fact, they often abuse their women. So an Asian
: female is a victim, and like Andromeda, is desperately waiting for her
: rescuer to save her. The Perseus in most cases is a white male. In short,
: here is the Hollywood stereotype of Asians (strongly enforced by the
: infamous "Joy Luck Club"):
: (1) Asian men are abusers of their women.
Really? In America, there is a lot of abused wives are there not?
In any society this happens. It is more human than Asian or whatever...
Chun Bak Cheung, Chung Ji Way , Chow Sing Chi abusers of women???
I don't think so.
: (2) Asian women are victims of such abuses.
: (3) White men are rescuers of the abused Asian women.
Funny some HK movies show these guys as drug dealers , I have yet
to see a real Chinese movie starring them as "rescuers of the
abused women."
: I would very much like this embarrassment to stop but unless trash like "Joy
: Luck Club" or "Tai Pan" (starring Joan Chen) cease to attract enthusiasm from
: an ignorant audience and praise from biased critics, this bigotry is still
: going to exist for a long, long time. Producers like Oliver Stone will
: continue to crank out more garbage in which Asians are portrayed as what most
: westerners THINK they OUGHT to be.
: This kind of ludicrous stereotype of Asians must stop. I don't have a problem
: with white men having intimacy with our women -- it is not my business to look
: into whom you date and marry. But please, don't make up those kind of rubbish
: that we don't take good care of our women. For that Mr. Oliver Stone has lost
: all of my respect and I now consider him as a racist pig. A question for you
: to pound on before I depart: How many Asian men in "Joy Luck Club" are kind,
: loving people?
: It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
: mine. Your comments are welcome.
: Peace.
: Zheng.
Please everyone do not forget this movie although deals with Chinese
culture and family,this movie is made with a western audience in mind
,however u look at it,although the movie is based on a Chinese author's
stories , it is still a "Westernized" Chinese movie , so many might
feel stereotypes of Chinese are shown. But to be realistic , if I want
to watch a real Chinese movie I would watch real Chinese movies ,
movies produced in HK (Chow Yung Fat is still my favorite!!! )
, Taiwan or China.
AW
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
In article <2pv071...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@nehi.cs.utk.edu (Michael Atherton
) says:
>
>|> More probably, these stereotypes are portrayed because people *think* that
>|> in 'Asian culture' (that phrase itself is meaningless -- there IS no
>|> monolithic 'Asian culture'), women do not have equality with men. (I will
>|> not argue that this is false, but certainly in the US, women do not have
>|> equality with men and yet there are many portrayals of sensitive, whatever
>|> men in American media) -- AND that people think that this applies to
>|> Asian *American* men. It does not.
>
>strange that we even have such a term, but I don't think I was the
>first person to use it in this thread. It may also be true that
>in the US women do not have equality with men, but they have more than
>any other country that I can think of (and are advancing everyday).
Well. Perhaps. Although it's true that women are objectified in the United
States and American culture more than almost any other culture, as well.
>I identified several films that I thought had positive roles for Asian
>males, do you disagree? For better or for worse the US is still
Those Vietnam war movies? Somehow, I doubt it, though, to be fair, I
haven't seen them.
>predominately WASP, shouldn't we expect them to be represented more
>often in film? And for every "sensitive" white male character you name, I
Sure. But when 1% of movie roles go to Asian Americans, and the vast majority
of those roles bit parts or as extras, something is wrong, don't you think?
>think I could name an insensitive one. The lack of positive male Asian
Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have insensitive and bad portrayals of
whatever ethnic group as long as you mix in some positive ones. This is
not the case for Asian American men.
>characters may just be a reflection of their proportion in the population.
Then explain the lack of positive portrayals *combined with* the predominance
of *negative* portrayals.
>Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
>acting.
Point?
>|> As another point, probably the worst husband of the lot in Joy Luck Club
>|> was the accountant, played by an Asian American male. In the book, this
>|> person was a white American man. Now tell me, why is such a change in the
>|> text appropriate and why was it made?
>
>Equal opportunity? ;) I don't know, I think you've got me on this one.
>If you find out the answer I'd like to know what it is.
I can guess.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
John R. Dooley
>In <2ppuke$7...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> cd...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (C. Duff) writes:
>
>"The Joy Luck Club" did get a nomination -- best screenplay based on material
>from another medium, for Amy Tan and Ron Bass.
Actually, it didn't. The five nominees for adapted
screenplay were: Schindler's List, The Remains of the Day,
The Age of Innocence, Shadowlands, and In the Name of the Father.
John D.
Michael Atherton
Possilbely...these stereotypes are portrayed because in Asian culture
women do not have equality with men. I don't claim to be an expert
on Asian culture, but I would like to point out that "Joy Luck Club"
was written by an Asian woman. Also, "Raise the Red Lantern" depicts
the abuse of women and was directed by an Asian man. Off hand I
can think of several movies that have had positive roles for Asian
men: "Killing Fields", "Good Morning Vietnam", and "Heaven and
Earth" (which by the way does not portray white American men in
a very good light). I would be very interested to know what Asian
women think about your opinion.
Michael Atherton
|>
|> >I identified several films that I thought had positive roles for Asian
|> >males, do you disagree? For better or for worse the US is still
|>
|> Those Vietnam war movies? Somehow, I doubt it, though, to be fair, I
|> haven't seen them.
Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
|>
|> >predominately WASP, shouldn't we expect them to be represented more
|> >often in film? And for every "sensitive" white male character you name, I
|>
|> Sure. But when 1% of movie roles go to Asian Americans, and the vast majority
|> of those roles bit parts or as extras, something is wrong, don't you think?
No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
studios to block such projects?
|>
|> >think I could name an insensitive one. The lack of positive male Asian
|>
|> Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have insensitive and bad portrayals of
|> whatever ethnic group as long as you mix in some positive ones. This is
|> not the case for Asian American men.
I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
|>
|> >characters may just be a reflection of their proportion in the population.
|>
|> Then explain the lack of positive portrayals *combined with* the predominance
|> of *negative* portrayals.
See above. I don't necessarily agree that there is a lack of positive portrayals.
|>
|> >Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
|> >acting.
|>
|> Point?
Point: This was an example of a strong positive role, and the actor was honored
for his portrayal. If there were indeed a concerted effort to keep
Asians out of Hollywood films I don't think this would have occurred.
|>
|> >|> As another point, probably the worst husband of the lot in Joy Luck Club
|> >|> was the accountant, played by an Asian American male. In the book, this
|> >|> person was a white American man. Now tell me, why is such a change in the
|> >|> text appropriate and why was it made?
|> >
|> >Equal opportunity? ;) I don't know, I think you've got me on this one.
|> >If you find out the answer I'd like to know what it is.
|>
|> I can guess.
Guessing perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice. Unless you have an
emotional stake in being a victim, you should use more realistic methods
to establish your world view.
|>
|> Peace.
|> Steve Wei
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Computer Science Dept. | are not those of my department
University of Tennessee, Knoxville | or my university, but they
athe...@cs.utk.edu | probably should be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton
|>
|> Anyway, another point I like to raise about Joy Luck Club is its portrayal
|> of Chinese men. I might be wrong, but there was not a single protagonist
|> among all Chinese male characters. This hardly seemed fair to all those
|> caring, loving, and responsible Chinese men out there.
This is a story about Chinese women! It is written by a Chinese American woman
from a woman's perspective.
|>
|> To made it worse, the women in the film almost all built better marriages
|> with White Americans. Was that just to appeal to the mainstream audience,
|> or to reflect sad experiences that the author may have had with Chinese
|> men? Whatever the reasons were, I find this rather irritating.
Too bad we can't ask her. I've had female friends tell me that they
don't date Chinese men because they're too traditional and conservative,
but I also know Chinese couples who are happy together. It's just
one movie, written from one person's perspective. I don't want to
see movies that have to be approved by committees. Why don't you
write your own screenplay and have it produced. If it's artisticly
well done I'd be glad to see it.
Yardena Arar
think the reason I thought it was nominated is that I saw Ron Bass at
the Writers Guild party for its Oscar nominees. No excuse, just trying
to figure out why I thought that and that's what stuck in my mind.
Keith Meng-Wei Loh
many people in the TV and movie audience.
Mister Sulu from the Starship Enterprise!
Count it as a pioneering positive role for an Asian male. Mister Sulu in
the movies also goes on the captain his own ship.
--
"Believe those who are seeking truth; doubt those who find it." --
Andre Gide / Keith Loh / l...@sfu.ca / graduated and going back to
school / Burnaby, British Columbia / ask me for the poem of the week!
Szu-Yuan Tu Huang
|> This is a story about Chinese women! It is written by a Chinese American
|> woman from a woman's perspective.
Yes. I am aware of that. What I don't understand was that why none of the
women in the film had a positive perspective on their countrymen.
|> Too bad we can't ask her. I've had female friends tell me that they
|> don't date Chinese men because they're too traditional and conservative,
|> but I also know Chinese couples who are happy together.
True enough. It all depends on the individuals involved.
|> It's just
|> one movie, written from one person's perspective. I don't want to
|> see movies that have to be approved by committees. Why don't you
|> write your own screenplay and have it produced. If it's artisticly
|> well done I'd be glad to see it.
Agreed. I was pointing out some of the failings of the film as something
representative of the Chinese / Chinese-American people. It is at most
a collection of probably fictitious stories developed along historical
backgrounds. No more, no less.
Also, after I have heard enough stories about honest and hardworking
Chinese men being tormented and abused by their womenfolk, I might set
myself to write something about it. Who knows?
Mike Huang
Michael Atherton
|> >
|> >Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
|> >roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
|> >roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
|> >leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
|>
|> why you think they were positive ones?
Do you have a VCR? I strongly suggest that you see "Killing Fields". You'd
referred to this film as a Vietnamese War film, it's not. It's
about the Cambodian civil war. The Asian actor in it won an Academy award.
|> >The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
|> >cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
|> >Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
|>
|> Wrong. There are tons of Asian American cops. Anyway, these are only a small
|> percentage of movies. The rest, romance movies, comedies, whatever, could
|> easily have Asian American men in them without changing the film. 'Threesome',
|> 'Reality Bites', 'Malice', 'Sleepless in Seattle', 'Most Dangerous Game',
|> etc etc, these are all movies I've recently seen ads for... they all could
|> have had Asian American men in them. The same goes for the vast majority of
|> films out there. However, stereotypes about AA men not being cops or not
|> being lawyers, or not being sensitive 90's men or whatever could preclude this.
|> And does.
Sure we could cast Asian Americans in lots of roles, how about
"Much Ado About Nothing"? As I've said before, Asian Americans do not
as yet represent a major percentage of the population compared to
Blacks and Hispanics, who probably have the same complaints. Why should
they be over represented in films? I certainly wouldn't expect to see
a large number of whites in HK films, and while we're on the topic
we might discuss white stereotypes in these films.
|>
|> >a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
|> >why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
|> >portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
|> >studios to block such projects?
|>
|> Exactly. Studios don't believe such screenplays will sell, and so they
|> don't back them. Not a conspiracy, per se, but the net effect is the same.
|> Certainly this effect can be seen in 'Miss Saigon' where many of the
|> formerly Asian men were changed to white men in order to increase audience
|> draw. I don't believe that this change was necessary.
Maybe they won't sell. What then? But I would probably agree that
the change was not necessary in 'Miss Saigon'.
|> >
|> >I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
|> >point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
|> >had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
|> >listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
|>
|> It would take days. Karate Kid I, II, III, Year of the Dragon, Rising Sun,
|> Indiana Jones, Joy Luck Club, Miss Saigon, etc. are some of the more
|> successful ones. There are many others. If anyone out there would like to add
|> some, please.
Ok, I haven't seen the Karate Kid series and have no intention of doing so.
Isn't Year of the Dragon like popular adventure trash? Rising Sun was
awful, but I thought the role of the playboy guy was positive, he comes
out honorable in the end. So the roles in this film were not realistic,
so what? It's like saying that Luke Skywalker's character should have
been better developed. Joy Luck Club was well done, and it's true that
there might have been more positive roles for Asian males. You should
talk to the author about it. But it's a "woman's" film.
|> >
|> > I don't necessarily agree that there is a lack of positive
|> >portrayals.
|>
|> As compared to negative portrayals, there is.
|>
You haven't seen the films I cited as having positive roles!
|> >
|> >Guessing perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice. Unless you have an
|>
|> You mean like guessing Asian Americans don't become cops and that it's
|> 'considered a low-status job'?
I try not to guess too much. I read this in an article in the L.A. Times
about why the L.A.P.D was having trouble recruiting Asian officers.
Do you have some stats about the percentage of Asian officers? How
many Asian police officers in the US do you know of?
|>
|> >emotional stake in being a victim, you should use more realistic methods
|> >to establish your world view.
|>
|> Why were three sit-coms starring Asian Americans canned by studios last
|> year? These are sit-coms that had pilots produced, and more than one-third
|> of other sit-coms that reach that stage get at least the pilot aired in
|> order to test the market. Doesn't seem like chance, to me. Again, these
|> changes from Asian American male actor to white actor and the reverse in
|> Joy Luck Club and Miss Saigon in a manner that befits stereotypes certainly
|> doesn't make sense to me. A concerted conspiracy, I don't think, but
|> certainly stereotypes about Asian American men and what roles they should
|> play are at work here.
|>
Sorry, I don't own a TV, but as I understand it sit-coms come and go,
and hopefully someday they'll go and never come back; sit-coms that is.
Damn things keep coming back as movies.
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> >I identified several films that I thought had positive roles for Asian
>|> >males, do you disagree? For better or for worse the US is still
>|>
>|> Those Vietnam war movies? Somehow, I doubt it, though, to be fair, I
>|> haven't seen them.
>
>Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
>roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
>roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
>leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
Hmmm... I haven't seen the movies -- could you describe the roles and
why you think they were positive ones?
>|> >predominately WASP, shouldn't we expect them to be represented more
>|> >often in film? And for every "sensitive" white male character you name, I
>|>
>|> Sure. But when 1% of movie roles go to Asian Americans, and the vast y
>majorit
>|> of those roles bit parts or as extras, something is wrong, don't you think?
>
>No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
>cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
>Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
Wrong. There are tons of Asian American cops. Anyway, these are only a small
percentage of movies. The rest, romance movies, comedies, whatever, could
easily have Asian American men in them without changing the film. 'Threesome',
'Reality Bites', 'Malice', 'Sleepless in Seattle', 'Most Dangerous Game',
etc etc, these are all movies I've recently seen ads for... they all could
have had Asian American men in them. The same goes for the vast majority of
films out there. However, stereotypes about AA men not being cops or not
being lawyers, or not being sensitive 90's men or whatever could preclude this.
And does.
>a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
>why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
>portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
>studios to block such projects?
Exactly. Studios don't believe such screenplays will sell, and so they
don't back them. Not a conspiracy, per se, but the net effect is the same.
Certainly this effect can be seen in 'Miss Saigon' where many of the
formerly Asian men were changed to white men in order to increase audience
draw. I don't believe that this change was necessary.
>|> >think I could name an insensitive one. The lack of positive male Asian
>|>
>|> Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have insensitive and bad portrayals of
>|> whatever ethnic group as long as you mix in some positive ones. This is
>|> not the case for Asian American men.
>
>I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
>point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
>had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
>listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
It would take days. Karate Kid I, II, III, Year of the Dragon, Rising Sun,
Indiana Jones, Joy Luck Club, Miss Saigon, etc. are some of the more
successful ones. There are many others. If anyone out there would like to add
some, please.
There are quite a number of 'pieces of social research' that show this.
None of which I have right with me... if anyone can supply them, please do.
>|> >characters may just be a reflection of their proportion in the population.
>|>
>|> Then explain the lack of positive portrayals *combined with* the e
>predominanc
>|> of *negative* portrayals.
>
>See above. I don't necessarily agree that there is a lack of positive
>portrayals.
As compared to negative portrayals, there is.
>|> >Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
>|> >acting.
>|>
>|> Point?
>
>Point: This was an example of a strong positive role, and the actor was d
>honore
>for his portrayal. If there were indeed a concerted effort to keep
>Asians out of Hollywood films I don't think this would have occurred.
Was this for John Lone in 'Year of the Dragon'? If so, I don't agree that
that was a positive role.
>|> >|> As another point, probably the worst husband of the lot in Joy Luck
>Club
>|> >|> was the accountant, played by an Asian American male. In the book, this
>|> >|> person was a white American man. Now tell me, why is such a change in e
>th
>|> >|> text appropriate and why was it made?
>|> >
>|> >Equal opportunity? ;) I don't know, I think you've got me on this one.
>|> >If you find out the answer I'd like to know what it is.
>|>
>|> I can guess.
>
>Guessing perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice. Unless you have an
You mean like guessing Asian Americans don't become cops and that it's
'considered a low-status job'?
>emotional stake in being a victim, you should use more realistic methods
>to establish your world view.
Why were three sit-coms starring Asian Americans canned by studios last
year? These are sit-coms that had pilots produced, and more than one-third
of other sit-coms that reach that stage get at least the pilot aired in
order to test the market. Doesn't seem like chance, to me. Again, these
changes from Asian American male actor to white actor and the reverse in
Joy Luck Club and Miss Saigon in a manner that befits stereotypes certainly
doesn't make sense to me. A concerted conspiracy, I don't think, but
certainly stereotypes about Asian American men and what roles they should
play are at work here.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>You forgetting one important Asian male role that has impacted on a great
>many people in the TV and movie audience.
>
> Mister Sulu from the Starship Enterprise!
>
>Count it as a pioneering positive role for an Asian male. Mister Sulu in
>the movies also goes on the captain his own ship.
Not a bad role, but not one that breaks stereotypes, either.
Peace.
Steve Wei
Julian L Chan
>In article <2q0bs0...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu (Michael Atherton ) writes:
>
>|> This is a story about Chinese women! It is written by a Chinese American
>|> woman from a woman's perspective.
>
>Yes. I am aware of that. What I don't understand was that why none of the
>women in the film had a positive perspective on their countrymen.
They didn't even have a positive impression of themselves, the women I mean.
>
>
>|> It's just
>|> one movie, written from one person's perspective. I don't want to
>|> see movies that have to be approved by committees. Why don't you
>|> write your own screenplay and have it produced. If it's artisticly
>|> well done I'd be glad to see it.
>
>Agreed. I was pointing out some of the failings of the film as something
>representative of the Chinese / Chinese-American people. It is at most
>a collection of probably fictitious stories developed along historical
>backgrounds. No more, no less.
>
>Also, after I have heard enough stories about honest and hardworking
>Chinese men being tormented and abused by their womenfolk, I might set
>myself to write something about it. Who knows?
You should. Anyone who thinks Chinese men control their wives have not
met my aunts or my grandmother. My uncles have to be the most soft-spoken
people you can imagine.
Julian
>
>Mike Huang
Michael Atherton
|>
|> They didn't even have a positive impression of themselves, the women I mean.
|>
[referring to "The Joy Luck Club"]
I think that this may be very realistic. I've read a bit about
the psychology of minorities and this is reported to be somewhat
common. I had a Japanese American friend years ago who never really felt
that she fit into either culture. She didn't make it either. :(
Zhiqi Zuo
In the traditional families, males were outgoing,
dominating and controlling. Men were also sharing/carrying
the heaviest burdens of families. Scientists are
still observing the behaviours of animals, like
chimpangees(sp), to understand the root of our
human "natures". Traditional Chinese families
have been more conservative in this century. But
this doesn't mean that a typical traditional
Chinese family don't have a father who is
suppossed by our tradition to be responsible and
caring in their hearts. Even in the more liberal West,
femals are sufferring in some aspects. Women didn't
get voting rights for a very long time. Some very unfair
USA laws on state levels were being practised, which
even allowed husbands to beat some parts of their
wives' bodies by using tools like stick and club(the
width and thickness were being limited).
But those don't mean that we have to appreciate
the steretypes from the past experiences.
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> >The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
>|> >cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
>|> >Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
>|>
>|> Wrong. There are tons of Asian American cops. Anyway, these are only a
>small
>|> percentage of movies. The rest, romance movies, comedies, whatever, could
>|> easily have Asian American men in them without changing the film.
>'Threesome',
>|> 'Reality Bites', 'Malice', 'Sleepless in Seattle', 'Most Dangerous Game',
>|> etc etc, these are all movies I've recently seen ads for... they all could
>|> have had Asian American men in them. The same goes for the vast majority of
>|> films out there. However, stereotypes about AA men not being cops or not
>|> being lawyers, or not being sensitive 90's men or whatever could preclude
>this.
>|> And does.
>
>Sure we could cast Asian Americans in lots of roles, how about
>"Much Ado About Nothing"? As I've said before, Asian Americans do not
>as yet represent a major percentage of the population compared to
>Blacks and Hispanics, who probably have the same complaints. Why should
>they be over represented in films? I certainly wouldn't expect to see
They aren't! One percent of all roles (and very few of these are substantial
roles) versus three percent of the population is certainly not 'over
representation'.
>a large number of whites in HK films, and while we're on the topic
>we might discuss white stereotypes in these films.
We might, but that's not relevant to Asian Americans.
>|> >a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
>|> >why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
>|> >portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
>|> >studios to block such projects?
>|>
>|> Exactly. Studios don't believe such screenplays will sell, and so they
>|> don't back them. Not a conspiracy, per se, but the net effect is the same.
>|> Certainly this effect can be seen in 'Miss Saigon' where many of the
>|> formerly Asian men were changed to white men in order to increase audience
>|> draw. I don't believe that this change was necessary.
>
>Maybe they won't sell. What then? But I would probably agree that
>the change was not necessary in 'Miss Saigon'.
They *will*. Dragon was number one for a number of weeks and certainly
made money. Joy Luck Club made money -- and would have if it had Asian
American men in it, as well.
>|> >I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
>|> >point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
>|> >had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
>|> >listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
>|>
>|> It would take days. Karate Kid I, II, III, Year of the Dragon, Rising Sun,
>|> Indiana Jones, Joy Luck Club, Miss Saigon, etc. are some of the more
>|> successful ones. There are many others. If anyone out there would like to d
>ad
>|> some, please.
>
>Ok, I haven't seen the Karate Kid series and have no intention of doing so.
>Isn't Year of the Dragon like popular adventure trash? Rising Sun was
>awful, but I thought the role of the playboy guy was positive, he comes
>out honorable in the end. So the roles in this film were not realistic,
>so what? It's like saying that Luke Skywalker's character should have
>been better developed. Joy Luck Club was well done, and it's true that
>there might have been more positive roles for Asian males. You should
>talk to the author about it. But it's a "woman's" film.
Fine. But all told, the sum comes out the same -- negative roles for
Asian American men.
>|> > I don't necessarily agree that there is a lack of positive
>|> >portrayals.
>|>
>|> As compared to negative portrayals, there is.
>
>You haven't seen the films I cited as having positive roles!
Okay, Killing Fields. One.
>|> >Guessing perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice. Unless you have an
>|>
>|> You mean like guessing Asian Americans don't become cops and that it's
>|> 'considered a low-status job'?
>
>I try not to guess too much. I read this in an article in the L.A. Times
>about why the L.A.P.D was having trouble recruiting Asian officers.
>Do you have some stats about the percentage of Asian officers? How
>many Asian police officers in the US do you know of?
It's about 1%, which is much less than the 3% of the population Asian
Americans comprise, but still significant. One would assume that with the
dozens of cop movies and the hundreds of cops in them, at least ONE would
have been Asian American.
>|> >emotional stake in being a victim, you should use more realistic methods
>|> >to establish your world view.
>|>
>|> Why were three sit-coms starring Asian Americans canned by studios last
>|> year? These are sit-coms that had pilots produced, and more than one-third
>|> of other sit-coms that reach that stage get at least the pilot aired in
>|> order to test the market. Doesn't seem like chance, to me. Again, these
>|> changes from Asian American male actor to white actor and the reverse in
>|> Joy Luck Club and Miss Saigon in a manner that befits stereotypes certainly
>|> doesn't make sense to me. A concerted conspiracy, I don't think, but
>|> certainly stereotypes about Asian American men and what roles they should
>|> play are at work here.
>
>Sorry, I don't own a TV, but as I understand it sit-coms come and go,
>and hopefully someday they'll go and never come back; sit-coms that is.
>Damn things keep coming back as movies.
You're not answering the question.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
Michael Atherton
And I don't think that anyone is. Seeing "The Joy Luck Club"
did not lead me to believe that Chinese men are bad husbands
or fathers. I came away from film with the feeling that
some women in China had a pretty difficult life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Absalom on Drugs
>I can guess.
To be fair, many people thought that the accountant was played by a
Black American. And indeed, his features were a bit "generic," and did
not seem to belong in particular to any ethnic groups.
Absalom on Drugs
Eddie C. Wu
Followup-To: rec.arts.movies,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.china,soc.cu
lture.taiwan
References: <2ppuke$7...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> <2prdjn$1...@lll-winken.llnl.gov> <
Cp1sJ...@acsu.buffalo.edu> <ZHENGY.48...@caedm.et.byu.edu> <2puai3INNlio
@CS.UTK.EDU>
Organization: Illinois State University
Distribution: world
Michael Atherton (athe...@nehi.cs.utk.edu) wrote:
: In article <ZHENGY.48...@caedm.et.byu.edu>, ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu writ
es:
: Possilbely...these stereotypes are portrayed because in Asian culture
: women do not have equality with men. I don't claim to be an expert
**********************************************************************
That was then this is now. Look at the Chinese woman now!
: on Asian culture, but I would like to point out that "Joy Luck Club"
: was written by an Asian woman. Also, "Raise the Red Lantern" depicts
************************************************************************
I guess I can write a story about how bitchy American women are. Would
you believe that? Don't label Asians. Men all get horny, no matter what
color you are and women always mysterious. Do you know the historical
background of the "Raise the Red Lanter?" Even Chinese thinks the movie
is hard to believe. A director is not a historian. A movie is different
than a history book. Performing arts gotta have conflicts to spark the story.
Movie is no exception. In order to make "movie" watchable" and "markettable"
the director or writer has to come up with some "strange things" even making it
up! Nobody wants to watch a movie describing boring daily life, no conflicts,
no violence.....
: the abuse of women and was directed by an Asian man. Off hand I
*************************************************************************
I personlly don't like that director because his movies always have something
to do with sex. Most of the movies in Chinese don't cover that much about sex
cause sex is not the most important thing to talk about. But the western
countries thinks the sex is very important (very high priority). Almost every
movie will have some sex scenes (or a long hot kiss). Since it's hard to know
how Asians think about sex, any movie with some "sex" will become popular and
will be treated as "the Bible of Asian Sexual Life."
: can think of several movies that have had positive roles for Asian
: men: "Killing Fields", "Good Morning Vietnam", and "Heaven and
: Earth" (which by the way does not portray white American men in
: a very good light). I would be very interested to know what Asian
: women think about your opinion.
*************************************************************************
The movies you mentioned above are mainly talking about Americans. Asians are
just "assistant" role to make Americans look greater. "See, Asians need us to
save their ass, they don't know how to manage their countries so we went in
there die for them, and they don't give a shit,.......Americans are great, they
will die for a tiny little country's democracy......"
Give me a break, these movies maybe make Americans look bad but no way they are
trying to make Asians look good! Give up your egoism!
Eddie
Sujin C Chang
>
> was waverly(lindo's daughter) japanese in real life?
> her real name is: Tamlyn Tomita.
She is a Japanese-American. She was also in Karate Kid II (guy's girlfriend),
Come and See the Paradise (about Concen. Camps in the US during WWII),
and I think even Santa Barbara for a short time.
Cathy
Joan Shields
>I was wondering if Asians in general had a clearer perception
>of asian characters (ie. Do the characters seem indistinct for people of
>non-asian background)
Well, I didn't grow up in an asian community but I had no trouble telling
the characters apart since they all acted differently and looked
different.
>I was also curious if non-asians felt the same empathy witht the characters
>on the screen as AA's did. Most of my friends are of asian heritage, and
>each of them related to me how they could see their lives echoed on the
>screen.
Not only was JLC an "asian-american" movie it was also a movie about
mothers and daughters and that's the way I related to it most strongly.
There's a lot that goes on between mothers and daughters that crosses
cultural lines.
joan
Zhiqi Zuo
I am sure that you don't, but some others do becaue of the excessive
exposures of and interests in(or obsesions with?) the female sufferrings
among the film professionals outside China. If I were an Iowa grown-up and
watched some films about Chinese by the old Hollywood, and most Chinese
films by Chinese that I have ever watched were by Zhang Yimou's and
Tian Zuang Zunag's films, because they might be the two best known Chinese
director outside China, what would be my general impression of the typical
Chinese peasants which I knew is the main force of the society? I
wouldn't know that sacrificing for others is one of the most appreciated
virtues of the people. The films would enhance and worsen the images of
Chinese that had built in my mind before. There are a few international
prizes for Chinese films, but the prizes are mostly going for such kinds
of Chinese movies. Women did suffered a lot in the past, and many of them
are still discriminated in more subtle ways, which many Chinese males can
detect and also hate just as we do to the violence in American cities and
the serious women abuse problems in America.
What I am questioning is whether some people have the interests to present
some people in BALANCED ways.
Think about it by making a films about the obsessions of Chinese in China
with films on the sufferrings of the following people:
1. Many black people before 1970 and even today.
2. Very serious women and children abuses, like beating, murdering and
kidnappings.
3. the past and today of the American Indians.
If almost all the most famous American films in China were of such kinds, or
in another words, if Chinese put much more attentions on these very TYPICAL
American problems exposed by some very extreme and babaric actions, do you
think the phenonmenon and the pysche are fair?
Michael Atherton
|> |>Sure we could cast Asian Americans in lots of roles, how about
|> |>"Much Ado About Nothing"? As I've said before, Asian Americans do not
|> |>as yet represent a major percentage of the population compared to
| |>Blacks and Hispanics, who probably have the same complaints. Why should
|> |>they be over represented in films? I certainly wouldn't expect to see
|>
|> They aren't! One percent of all roles (and very few of these are substantial
|> roles) versus three percent of the population is certainly not 'over
|> representation'.
It doesn't seem like were going to find much common ground on this topic.
Why don't you watch the four films I suggested as having positive roles
for Asian males and then we can discuss them. If I can find the
Chinese films mentioned I'll watch them.
Our difference is in what is an acceptable percentage. I don't feel
that 1% of the film roles vs. 3% of the population is a bad ratio
and I'm sure that there will be an improvement in the near future.
I think that it is important that were are arguing about films and
not educational, employment, or housing discrimation. The fact
that we are talking about film is indicative of a much higher
assimilation rate for Asian immigrants than we would have observed
twenty years ago.
|> >|>
|> >|> Why were three sit-coms starring Asian Americans canned by studios last
|> >|> year? These are sit-coms that had pilots produced, and more than one-third
|> >|> of other sit-coms that reach that stage get at least the pilot aired in
|> >|> order to test the market. Doesn't seem like chance, to me. Again, these
|> >|> changes from Asian American male actor to white actor and the reverse in
|> >|> Joy Luck Club and Miss Saigon in a manner that befits stereotypes certainly
|> >|> doesn't make sense to me. A concerted conspiracy, I don't think, but
|> >|> certainly stereotypes about Asian American men and what roles they should
|> >|> play are at work here.
|> >
|> >Sorry, I don't own a TV, but as I understand it sit-coms come and go,
|> >and hopefully someday they'll go and never come back; sit-coms that is.
|> >Damn things keep coming back as movies.
|>
|> You're not answering the question.
|>
I try not to discuss issues on which I'm not knowledgeable. Since I
don't watch TV I cannot discuss TV sit-coms with you.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
dlt...@csupomona.edu
> Being an Asian (not an American Asian. Geez, forget those PC craps), I sort of resented this movie when I sat in theater crowded with teary people. Most part of this movie sunk into exaggerated soap opera.
>
> There are more in Asian women than respectable, devoted, suffering mothers and wives.
>
> Hwang
I concur, that there are more to Asian women than the stereotypes portrayed
in the movies. /However, I don't know how much I would enjoy watching
a movie about an ordinary woman doing ordinary things. Asian or otherwise.
I enjoyed the movie....I was a bit miffed at the portrayal of AA males....but
otherwise I really liked it.
Actually, I used to agree with you about PC terms. They're long and tedious.
As well as often inaccurate. However, when we change the terminology, we
change the way in which people think. That is why we are moving away from
the term oriental. I took a class on AA psych. This is when I realized that
maybe our historical representation is so based in myth that we need to
change it NOW. I prefer Asian AMerican because, first and foremost I am an
American. The problems we have as Americans are the ones that we truly need
to deal with. Problems in China are also important to me, but I would feel
much more strongly if it had been the U.S. government beating Chinese Students.
I also want to make it clear the I am of Asian Heritage. Not by the way I
look, but by the way I am. I am proud to be American, but I am also proud
to be Chinese. So if you must label me, I want to be known for both.
(As Dennis steps down from the soap box) I think it's important that people
understand what you're about, so if you disagree with PC terms... fine.
However, don't fail to recognize the other subtelties that accompany being
referred to as just Asian.
Just some thought,
D Tung
Bruce: I forgot something.
Linda: What?
Bruce: I forgot to say I love you.
Linda You know I think that's the first time you've ever said that to me.
Bruce: Yeah but I meant it every day.
Dragon!!! Dragon!!! Dragon!!!!
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> |>Sure we could cast Asian Americans in lots of roles, how about
>|> |>"Much Ado About Nothing"? As I've said before, Asian Americans do not
>|> |>as yet represent a major percentage of the population compared to
>| |>Blacks and Hispanics, who probably have the same complaints. Why should
>|> |>they be over represented in films? I certainly wouldn't expect to see
>|>
>|> They aren't! One percent of all roles (and very few of these are
>substantial
>|> roles) versus three percent of the population is certainly not 'over
>|> representation'.
>
>that 1% of the film roles vs. 3% of the population is a bad ratio
Hmmmmm. Then you would not notice if all of a sudden 2 out of every 3
film roles were given to non-white people? A similar ratio, but quite
noticable and blatantly non-representative, don't you think?
>and I'm sure that there will be an improvement in the near future.
I hope so. Doubt it, though.
>I think that it is important that were are arguing about films and
>not educational, employment, or housing discrimation. The fact
>that we are talking about film is indicative of a much higher
>assimilation rate for Asian immigrants than we would have observed
>twenty years ago.
You don't want to get me started about educational, employment, or
housing discrimination. In those areas, racism is still prevalent, but
far less blatant than in the film industry, where it is perfectly
acceptable to turn Asian Americans away simply because of their
race -- even when race is not specified or is irrelevant for a specific
role.
>I try not to discuss issues on which I'm not knowledgeable. Since I
>don't watch TV I cannot discuss TV sit-coms with you.
That's unfortunate, since if you did, we could discuss the dearth of
Asian Americans on television, including the new show supposedly about
Hawaii (which is 60% Asian or something, but by the show you'd guess
it was about 90% white, and 10% exotic Native women.)
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
Scott Jung
>in the US women do not have equality with men, but they have more than
>any other country that I can think of (and are advancing everyday).
So the knife that was stuck in 8 inches has been pulled out 3, as opposed
to 2 or 1.
>
>I identified several films that I thought had positive roles for Asian
>males, do you disagree? For better or for worse the US is still
Yes. I disagree. They are positive in that they are not the usual
drug dealer, evil kung fu master, non-feeling, asexual, often clown-like
roles Asian males often have gotten in American movies.
>predominately WASP, shouldn't we expect them to be represented more
>often in film? And for every "sensitive" white male character you name, I
>think I could name an insensitive one. The lack of positive male Asian
One thing that no one has brought up (I know, some of my followups are
reiterating things that have been said already...) is the fact that
even where minorities in general have positive roles, they have so much
less DEPTH than the positive (and even negative) roles that Whites get.
Often insensitive White males are the heroes of the movie (meaning their
character actually has some semblance of a 3rd dimension, or at least
receives empathy from the audience).
Often (almost always) Asian males are not, sensitive or no (meaning their
characters, even if played by people with such amazing ability as John
Lone, lack depth and seem plastic, while the main character, even if
played by such an obviously cardboard, pitiful excues for an actor as
Mickey Rourke, come off looking better)
>characters may just be a reflection of their proportion in the population.
>Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
>acting.
I would bet that the White male who played the lead in said movie got
a more prestigious award, since the Asian male played a supporting role.
=peace=
Scott Jung
Scott Jung
Atherton ) says:
>
>Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
>roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
>roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
>leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
If memory serves me correctly, "The Killing Fields" main character was
not Asian. Beyond Bruce Lee, a couple of low-budget action films, and
some films which have not received any degree of recognition (such as
"Combination Platter"), there are NO leading roles for an Asian man.
Also, small but positive roles is kind of like food that doesn't help
your hunger, but doesn't taste foul. You're still hungry, but at least
it didn't make you any sicker...
>|> Sure. But when 1% of movie roles go to Asian Americans, and the vast y
>majorit
>|> of those roles bit parts or as extras, something is wrong, don't you think?
>
>No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
>cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
>Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
>a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
>why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
>portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
>studios to block such projects?
That's a good suggestion. It all comes down to money, though I think
the only way to get movies with an undiluted Asian Am viewpoint would be
to bypass the major studios, since they have shown little respect for
us in the past and show few if any signs that they plan to change at all.
>I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
>point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
>had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
>listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
I have some papers on the subject. Most apply to African Americans,
but the points can all be applied to Asian Ams as well: early films like
"Birth of a Nation" by D.W. Griffith which portrays a Black man
(played by a White man) as a threat/rapist of innocent White women have
their Asian-Am parallels in such movies as "Sunday School Teacher and the
Heathen Chinese" (not sure if this is the verbatim title) and "The Yellow
Peril," in which a servant or laundryman causes some trouble and is in the
end set on fire and thrown off a building, for example....
>See above. I don't necessarily agree that there is a lack of positive
>portrayals.
That's like having a cake, saying you bought it for everyone, letting
Steve have a bite, letting me have a bite, and eating the rest. Then
if we say "Hey, you're eating the whole cake," you reply "No, I gave you
a bite. EACH!"
And expecting us to go "wow, thanks dude."
>|> >Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
>|> >acting.
>|>
>|> Point?
>
>Point: This was an example of a strong positive role, and the actor was d
>honore
>for his portrayal. If there were indeed a concerted effort to keep
>Asians out of Hollywood films I don't think this would have occurred.
If there was any semblance of an effort to put Asians IN Hollywood
films, this would have occurred ***much more often*** by now.
This is like having a running race. One team has a nice track with lots
of grip, energy return, etc. The other team has boulders and rocks
strewn over their side of the track. One member of the "other team" happens
to be exceptionally, exceptionally athletic, and still manages to win a
race or 2, despite all the rocks. What about all those people from the
"other team," who, despite being better runners than most of the people
from the 1st team, keep somehow losing their races all the time?
=peace=
Scott
Keith Meng-Wei Loh
>In article <2q0an9...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu (Michael
>Atherton ) says:
>>
>>Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
>>roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
>>roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
>>leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
> If memory serves me correctly, "The Killing Fields" main character was
> not Asian.
Both Haing S. Ngor (academy award winner for THE KILLING FIELDS for best
supporting actor) and the actor who portrayed the American reporter who
was his friend got about equal time. Why Ngor received a nomination for
supporting actor is a question that might serve your discussion. In the
film itself Ngor's character was certainly the most important in teh
story and should be considered the 'main character'. So, while he did
receive good treatment in the movie, that he was not considered for
best actor is something to consider in this discussion.
However, the
answer might not be entirely to do with race. Many good performances in
films receive best supporting nominations instead of best actor
performances because Academy voters are spreading their votes around to
guarantee that the performance is recognized. Otherwise, such performances
are merely lost against more popular choices for the marquee nominations.
I don't remember that particular Oscar year but you might want to explore
whether or not race could have had influence on why Academy voters might
not have considered Ngor's performance strong or popular enough to win
in the marquee nominations.
In any case, that he received an Oscar for best supporting actor is still
nothing to sniff about. It was superb and deserved to be recognized in
the Oscars.
Readers of this discussion may also want to acknowledge the performances
of Jason Scott Lee, who is a Hawaiian (and so not Asian), is not very
distinguishable from a Chinese or Japanese. In the past there have been
complaints about whether Lee could or should act in Asian roles. (this
same complaint was made about Haing S. Ngor for portraying a Chinese
doctor when Ngor is Cambodian in MY LIFE) Lee's Asian appearance
served him well when he was Bruce Lee in DRAGON. An interesting film
in that it explored the mechanics of a relationship between a Chinese
and a white woman much more than I remember in any movie. That
exploration gave DRAGON a defining dimension that made it a better than
average biography. It certainly shouldn't be excluded on the basis of
Lee's race; to all intensive purposes his performance was as an Asian.
Scott Jung
>Atherton ) says:
>>
>>I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
>>point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
>>had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
>>listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
Again, I've seen some, and I've heard opinions from other AsAms on the
others...
Steve Wei said this:
>It would take days. Karate Kid I, II, III, Year of the Dragon, Rising Sun,
>Indiana Jones, Joy Luck Club, Miss Saigon, etc. are some of the more
>successful ones. There are many others. If anyone out there would like to add
>some, please.
Off the top of the dome, Showdown in Little Tokyo, any assortment of
other low-budget/action martial arts films, Missing In Action, anything
made before color film that had any Asian characters in it, Gung Ho,
anything with Charlie Chan, Mr. Moto, etc. (Charlie Chan is expected to
make a comeback in the near future too, so a "that was then, America is
getting better all the time" argument would be pretty weak here),
Rambo movies, White-man ninja movies ("American Ninja 46" or whatever),
The Lover, Once Upon A Time in America (not to be confused with the
prime HK film "Once Upon A Time In China"), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,
Tango & Cash (not only was the bad guy Chinese, they blatantly ripped off
the flying-through-the-front-window-of-a-bus-brought-to-a-halt-by-cool-
hero-guy-with-a-gun scene from Jackie Chan's Police Story), and LOTS MORE!
I'll add to the list later, if anyone is interested...
>
>There are quite a number of 'pieces of social research' that show this.
>None of which I have right with me... if anyone can supply them, please do.
I'll post what I have after I'm done with finals.
(it would take too long to do so before then...)
=peace=
Scott Jung
Scott Jung
Atherton ) says:
>
>Do you have a VCR? I strongly suggest that you see "Killing Fields". You'd
>referred to this film as a Vietnamese War film, it's not. It's
>about the Cambodian civil war. The Asian actor in it won an Academy award.
That's cool. But that's like saying African-Americans aren't disadvantaged
because of Bill Cosby.
>Sure we could cast Asian Americans in lots of roles, how about
>"Much Ado About Nothing"? As I've said before, Asian Americans do not
Why not? They cast a White man in "Miss Saigon," "Kung Fu," "The Good
Earth," and many other movies with Asian themes...
>as yet represent a major percentage of the population compared to
>Blacks and Hispanics, who probably have the same complaints. Why should
Yes. All racial/ethnic minorities in the U.S. with functional vision
and/or hearing have the same complaints.
>they be over represented in films? I certainly wouldn't expect to see
>a large number of whites in HK films, and while we're on the topic
>we might discuss white stereotypes in these films.
These are HK films, not Asian-American films. HK films have MUCH less
impact in the world media than American movies. If you look at the box
office top 10 list in HK, there's always a number of American movies on
the list. If you look at top 10 lists in America, the only HK movies
ever to crack the top ten have starred Bruce Lee.
So even if your point were valid, it would be weak.
>|> >studios to block such projects?
>|>
>|> Exactly. Studios don't believe such screenplays will sell, and so they
>|> don't back them. Not a conspiracy, per se, but the net effect is the same.
>|> Certainly this effect can be seen in 'Miss Saigon' where many of the
>|> formerly Asian men were changed to white men in order to increase audience
>|> draw. I don't believe that this change was necessary.
>
>Maybe they won't sell. What then? But I would probably agree that
>the change was not necessary in 'Miss Saigon'.
You know what? Maybe they won't sell.... that's true.
Then again, Spike Lee, Ernest Dickerson, Mario Van Peebles, the Hudlin
brothers, the Hughes brothers, Robert Townsend, and other African American
directors are doing well for themselves, so maybe there is some hope.
>Ok, I haven't seen the Karate Kid series and have no intention of doing so.
>Isn't Year of the Dragon like popular adventure trash? Rising Sun was
Partly right. It *is* trash... ;)
>awful, but I thought the role of the playboy guy was positive, he comes
>out honorable in the end. So the roles in this film were not realistic,
(this is about Rising Sun)
They still leave that doubt in the end, and when I spoke with a few
Latino and Black friends about the movie, they didn't remember the reedeming
parts about the Asian characters... which perhaps is the way it was
intended. Enough good Asian stuff so that the Asian viewers remember it,
and enough bad Asian stuff so that *everyone else* remembers...
And come on, a Japanese businessman who sings karaoke and eats sushi off
a White prostitute's belly?
>so what? It's like saying that Luke Skywalker's character should have
>been better developed. Joy Luck Club was well done, and it's true that
>there might have been more positive roles for Asian males. You should
>talk to the author about it. But it's a "woman's" film.
Financed (controlled?) by a White man...
Executive produced by Oliver Stone, purveyor of loads of films with
twisted portrayals of all types of minorities... all of which affirm the
majority's stereotypes of said minorities. (hmm, did I use the word
"purveyor" right here? oh well)
>You haven't seen the films I cited as having positive roles!
I know I said this already, as I'm following up on a week's worth of
posts in one shot, but I *have* seen them, and I still disagree with you.
>I try not to guess too much. I read this in an article in the L.A. Times
>about why the L.A.P.D was having trouble recruiting Asian officers.
>Do you have some stats about the percentage of Asian officers? How
>many Asian police officers in the US do you know of?
With the L.A.P.D.'s track record of treatment of minorities, I would
be surprised if they *didn't* have trouble recruiting Asian (or other
minority) officers... It takes a special kind of person to enjoy beating
your own kind...
>Sorry, I don't own a TV, but as I understand it sit-coms come and go,
>and hopefully someday they'll go and never come back; sit-coms that is.
>Damn things keep coming back as movies.
Now that's a good idea. I'd throw out the TV in my room, but then I'd
miss those late night Shaw Brothers flicks. (also my mom & dad would be
mad, it's their TV)
=peace=
Scott
Scott Jung
<st...@husc.harvard.edu> says:
>
>To be fair, many people thought that the accountant was played by a
>Black American. And indeed, his features were a bit "generic," and did
>not seem to belong in particular to any ethnic groups.
Yes, but still he's not White. That's like the current trend in movies
today. If you think having a Black/Latino servant would be too much, make
him Asian instead ( ). If you think having the bad guys all be
Asian might be too offensive, make the supporting sidekick role Black
(Rising Sun).
But, make sure the leads, the ones who get the women, the ones who get
the empathy, etc. are White.
(btw, I thought the accountant guy in JLC definitely looked Asian.)
(shit, I can't remember the name of the movie for my first example.
It had Don Johnson in it, and the woman from "Hand That Rocks The
Cradle.")
=peace=
Scott
Scott Jung
>
>>Do you have some stats about the percentage of Asian officers? How
>>many Asian police officers in the US do you know of?
>
>It's about 1%, which is much less than the 3% of the population Asian
>Americans comprise, but still significant. One would assume that with the
>dozens of cop movies and the hundreds of cops in them, at least ONE would
>have been Asian American.
I've seen two. Both sucked, and the Asian people were sidekicks, not
leads.
=peace=
Scott
Scott Jung
not as long as you remain blissful...
>Why don't you watch the four films I suggested as having positive roles
>for Asian males and then we can discuss them. If I can find the
>Chinese films mentioned I'll watch them.
Again, the Chinese films do not apply here. Although you might watch
them anyway, at least to get *some* decent portrayals of Asians (in lead
roles!) in your system...
>Our difference is in what is an acceptable percentage. I don't feel
>that 1% of the film roles vs. 3% of the population is a bad ratio
>and I'm sure that there will be an improvement in the near future.
Maybe, if directors, actors, etc. receive support from the AsAm
community.
Also, that's 1% of film roles (I doubt it's that high, do you have a
source for it?), maybe 95% of which SUCK... (the other 5% is for gems like
"The Killing Fields")
>I think that it is important that were are arguing about films and
>not educational, employment, or housing discrimation. The fact
>that we are talking about film is indicative of a much higher
>assimilation rate for Asian immigrants than we would have observed
>twenty years ago.
Not necessarily. My own family were Asian immigrants 3 generations ago.
Also, all those other topics apply as well...
Out of all of them, though, film has the most impact on what people
*think*, and its impact is global.
Nothing has an effect on the rest of the world quite like the American
mass media...
=peace=
Scott
Raymond Tang
Scott Jung <SRJ...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
> Tango & Cash (not only was the bad guy Chinese, they blatantly ripped off
> the flying-through-the-front-window-of-a-bus-brought-to-a-halt-by-cool-
> hero-guy-with-a-gun scene from Jackie Chan's Police Story), and LOTS MORE!
Well, I wouldnt put it as a rip-off of that scene.
More like a tribute to Jackie Chan. From what I have
heard Sylvester Stallone is big fan of Jackie Chan
and have even talked about doing film projects with
Jackie Chan. I just saw Demolition Man (a pretty
hokey film) but there was another blantant Jackie Chan
reference in it. If you haven't seen it, the scene was
when the female cop kicks the bad guys butts, and
Stallone's character is dumbfounded as how she was so
good, and she said she learned it from watching
"Jackie Chan" movies.
RT
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>of Jason Scott Lee, who is a Hawaiian (and so not Asian), is not very
>distinguishable from a Chinese or Japanese. In the past there have been
I believe Jason Scott Lee is Hawaiian/Chinese.
Peace.
Steve Wei
Alex Lee
Raymond Tang <rt...@kingcong.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Well, I wouldnt put it as a rip-off of that scene.
>More like a tribute to Jackie Chan. From what I have
>heard Sylvester Stallone is big fan of Jackie Chan
>and have even talked about doing film projects with
>Jackie Chan. I just saw Demolition Man (a pretty
>hokey film) but there was another blantant Jackie Chan
>reference in it. If you haven't seen it, the scene was
>when the female cop kicks the bad guys butts, and
>Stallone's character is dumbfounded as how she was so
>good, and she said she learned it from watching
>"Jackie Chan" movies.
>
Wait, was she Cynthia Rock? Now she is hot!! Red hot!!
I saw her in a couple of movies, one where she took on a
whole gang of white trash renegades. I mean the moves
on her was just out of this world, especially on her
figure. She definetly turned me on!! She has definetly
studied either martial arts or gymnastics because her moves
seemed quite genuine enough not to seem like she just
learned it for the screen.
--
if ((Vishnu == creator) || (Father == creator)) then genesis(this->creator);
if ((Kali == destroyer) || (Son == messiah)) then revelations(this->judgment);
if ((Shiva == moderator) || (Holy Spirit == prophesy)) then psalms(prophet);
chickadee
ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu writes:
> I found that Hollywood almost always portray Asians in the following way:
>
> Asian men have twisted minds and degenerate moralities. They don't take
> good of their women. In fact, they often abuse their women. So an Asian
> female is a victim, and like Andromeda, is desperately waiting for her
> rescuer to save her. The Perseus in most cases is a white male. In short,
> here is the Hollywood stereotype of Asians (strongly enforced by the
> infamous "Joy Luck Club"):
Is the movie version of "Joy Luck Club" so far from the novel? i
thoroughly enjoyed the novel by Amy Tan, but have not yet seen the
movie. The novel had deep significance to myself, being an ABC also
(Amer Born Chinese).
>
> (1) Asian men are abusers of their women.
> (2) Asian women are victims of such abuses.
> (3) White men are rescuers of the abused Asian women.
>
> I would very much like this embarrassment to stop but unless trash like "Joy
> Luck Club" or "Tai Pan" (starring Joan Chen) cease to attract enthusiasm from
> an ignorant audience and praise from biased critics, this bigotry is still
> going to exist for a long, long time. Producers like Oliver Stone will
> continue to crank out more garbage in which Asians are portrayed as what most
> westerners THINK they OUGHT to be.
Although i was born and grew up here in America, i have deep interest
in my Chinese heritage. i am a student of Taoism, and have researched
much Chinese history. i can't say that i know that much about Chinese
culture though. However, i think that Amy Tan's story is just that...a
novel of something that may have happened in Real Life. i don't think
it gives anyone a biased perception of Asians...IMO.
About Oliver Stone. You obviously don't know much about Stone. He has
quite a bit of respect of Asian culture, most notably Buddhism. (See
the last issue of _Tricycle: the Buddhist Review_).
i respect Oliver Stone, and i feel your opinion of him is unwarranted.
> This kind of ludicrous stereotype of Asians must stop. I don't have a problem
> with white men having intimacy with our women -- it is not my business to look
> into whom you date and marry. But please, don't make up those kind of rubbish
> that we don't take good care of our women. For that Mr. Oliver Stone has lost
> all of my respect and I now consider him as a racist pig. A question for you
> to pound on before I depart: How many Asian men in "Joy Luck Club" are kind,
> loving people?
You make it sound like that we are set into one mindset/personality.
_The Joy Luck Club_ is a _STORY_ and only that. i don't believe that
it is making any generalizations about gender relationships between
Asians.
>
> It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
> mine. Your comments are welcome.
>
> Peace.
>
>
> Zheng.
________________________________________________________________________
_____
"...We learned to be patient observers like the owl. We learned
cleverness from the crow, and courage from the jay, who will attack an
owl ten times its size to drive it off its territory. But above all of
them ranked the chickadee because of its indomitable spirit."
--Tom Brown, Jr., _The
Tracker_
"All this new stuff goes on top
turn it over turn it over
wait and water it down.
From the dark bottom
turn it inside out
let it spread through, sift down,
even.
Watch it sprout.
A mind like compost."
--Gary Snyder...poet, mountaineer
________________________________________________________________________
______
chickadee
eunos@mercury (a wong) writes:
> ZHE...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
> : I found that Hollywood almost always portray Asians in the following way:
>
> : Asian men have twisted minds and degenerate moralities. They don't take
> : good of their women. In fact, they often abuse their women. So an Asian
> : female is a victim, and like Andromeda, is desperately waiting for her
> : rescuer to save her. The Perseus in most cases is a white male. In short,
> : here is the Hollywood stereotype of Asians (strongly enforced by the
> : infamous "Joy Luck Club"):
>
> : (1) Asian men are abusers of their women.
> Really? In America, there is a lot of abused wives are there not?
> In any society this happens. It is more human than Asian or whatever...
> Chun Bak Cheung, Chung Ji Way , Chow Sing Chi abusers of women???
> I don't think so.
>
> : (2) Asian women are victims of such abuses.
>
>
> : (3) White men are rescuers of the abused Asian women.
> Funny some HK movies show these guys as drug dealers , I have yet
> to see a real Chinese movie starring them as "rescuers of the
> abused women."
>
>
>
> : I would very much like this embarrassment to stop but unless trash like "Joy
> : Luck Club" or "Tai Pan" (starring Joan Chen) cease to attract enthusiasm from
> : an ignorant audience and praise from biased critics, this bigotry is still
> : going to exist for a long, long time. Producers like Oliver Stone will
> : continue to crank out more garbage in which Asians are portrayed as what most
> : westerners THINK they OUGHT to be.
>
> : This kind of ludicrous stereotype of Asians must stop. I don't have a problem
> : with white men having intimacy with our women -- it is not my business to look
> : into whom you date and marry. But please, don't make up those kind of rubbish
> : that we don't take good care of our women. For that Mr. Oliver Stone has lost
> : all of my respect and I now consider him as a racist pig. A question for you
> : to pound on before I depart: How many Asian men in "Joy Luck Club" are kind,
> : loving people?
>
> : It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
> : mine. Your comments are welcome.
>
> : Peace.
>
>
> : Zheng.
>
> Please everyone do not forget this movie although deals with Chinese
> culture and family,this movie is made with a western audience in mind
> ,however u look at it,although the movie is based on a Chinese author's
> stories , it is still a "Westernized" Chinese movie , so many might
> feel stereotypes of Chinese are shown. But to be realistic , if I want
> to watch a real Chinese movie I would watch real Chinese movies ,
> movies produced in HK (Chow Yung Fat is still my favorite!!! )
> , Taiwan or China.
>
> AW
AW,
Realistic? Amy Tan is writing on the culture of _Chinese Americans_.
There is an important and obvious distinction between that and stories
of Chinese in PR of C, HK, and the rest of Asia...big difference.
chickadee
Raymond Tang
Scott Jung <SRJ...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
> (shit, I can't remember the name of the movie for my first example.
> It had Don Johnson in it, and the woman from "Hand That Rocks The
> Cradle.")
It's "Guilty as Sin"
chickadee
chi...@u.washington.edu (Chiung-I Hwang) writes:
> Being an Asian (not an American Asian. Geez, forget those PC craps), I sort of resented this movie when I sat in theater crowded with teary people. Most part of this movie sunk into exaggerated soap opera.
>
> There are more in Asian women than respectable, devoted, suffering mothers and wives.
>
> Hwang
IMHO:
Being Chinese American (b/c i was born in the U.S., not b/c i relate
myself to being part of America...i am a non-conformist and Taoist, but
that's another story), i think i probably would have cried if i had
seen the movie. i've read the novel, but havent seen it on screen, but
i hope to be able to.
As for the novel, the important part was being able to relate
perceptions about growing up here in the States Chinese.
Julian L Chan
I heard both Keanu Reeves (Ted in Bill & Ted) and Russel Wong have one
Chinese parents. Anyone hear this as well?
Julian
War
&
>Peace.
>Steve Wei
Julian L Chan
>In article <94123.022...@psuvm.psu.edu> <SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>In article <loh.76...@sfu.ca>, l...@fraser.sfu.ca (Keith Meng-Wei Loh) says:
>>>
>>>Readers of this discussion may also want to acknowledge the performances
>>>of Jason Scott Lee, who is a Hawaiian (and so not Asian), is not very
>>>distinguishable from a Chinese or Japanese. In the past there have been
>>
>>I believe Jason Scott Lee is Hawaiian/Chinese.
I heard both Keanu Reeves (Ted in Bill & Ted) and Russell Wong have one
Chinese parent and one caucasian parent (like me). Anyone hear this as well?
Stella Joan Hwang
OK, I've been a lurker for quite some time, but with all this talk about
Asians in movies, I have decided to make the plunge.
First of all, I absolutely hated The Joy Luck Club the Movie. It was
absolutely the sappiest piece of carp (yes I meant to do that) that
Hollywood has ever put out. And this is even worse because it is about
Asians since there is so little material about Asians in general on film.
Don't get me wrong; I loved the book to bits because I could relate to it on
so many levels, being an American brought up in an Asian household.
I was told by many people, Asian and non-Asian alike, that this was an
absolutely wonderful movie. Since the book was so good, I expected the
same. But Amy Tan completely bastardizes her own work with a screenplay
that plays up any and all mother-daughter realizations and growing-closer to
the point of physical illness on my part. This is all for the audience that
loves to cry for happiness in movies. I know that in my own experience and
in my observations of other mother-daughter relationships, there is never
such a great display of emotion, evolving from a short chat or trip to the
beauty parlor.
This cathartic behavior is for the birds and the screen only, not only
for Asians but for everyone. The only reason that this movie bothered me so
much is because there is such a poverty about Asian family life on film, I
fear that there are uninformed individuals out there that may take this
horribly depicted view of Asian american life as a possible reality. One
could say that no one thinks the Cleavers or the Bradys represent the whole
of American culture, but that is because either from personal experience, or
from a wide variety of other sources (like Rosanne), they can see that it is
an idealized portrait.
I realize that film and television are not where you want to be forming
opinions about other cultures, but The Joy Luck Club really raised my ire,
and i had to speak out against this movies that so many critics loved.
OK, you can tear me to bits now. I enjoy that kind of thing.
--
Stella
ste...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Life--the food sucks, but the portions are so small.
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Lee) says:
>
>>reference in it. If you haven't seen it, the scene was
>>when the female cop kicks the bad guys butts, and
>>Stallone's character is dumbfounded as how she was so
>>good, and she said she learned it from watching
>>"Jackie Chan" movies.
>
>Wait, was she Cynthia Rock? Now she is hot!! Red hot!!
Cynthia Rothrock, you mean? No, she wasn't in Demolition Man... she's
more relegated to like lower-budget chop socky flicks.
>figure. She definetly turned me on!! She has definetly
>studied either martial arts or gymnastics because her moves
>seemed quite genuine enough not to seem like she just
>learned it for the screen.
More than studied. Something like world kickboxing champion or something
if I remember right.
Nothing like a woman kicking mighty ass to get the juices flowing...
'specially the actresses in those Jet Li films... :P
Peace.
Steve Wei
Raymond Tang
Alex Lee <a...@cory.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Wait, was she Cynthia Rock? Now she is hot!! Red hot!!
The lady cop in Demolition Man was the actress from "The Vanishing"
(the one who vanished), and most likely got a stunt double to do the
fight scene.
>figure. She definetly turned me on!! She has definetly
>studied either martial arts or gymnastics because her moves
>seemed quite genuine enough not to seem like she just
>learned it for the screen.
Cyntia Rothrock definitely studied MA, was forms champion
before starting movie career.
RT
world
>
>Asian men have twisted minds and degenerate moralities. They don't take
>good of their women. In fact, they often abuse their women. So an Asian
>female is a victim, and like Andromeda, is desperately waiting for her
>rescuer to save her. The Perseus in most cases is a white male. In short,
>here is the Hollywood stereotype of Asians (strongly enforced by the
>infamous "Joy Luck Club"):
>
>(1) Asian men are abusers of their women.
>(3) White men are rescuers of the abused Asian women.
>
>Luck Club" or "Tai Pan" (starring Joan Chen) cease to attract enthusiasm from
>an ignorant audience and praise from biased critics, this bigotry is still
>going to exist for a long, long time. Producers like Oliver Stone will
>continue to crank out more garbage in which Asians are portrayed as what most
>westerners THINK they OUGHT to be.
>
>This kind of ludicrous stereotype of Asians must stop. I don't have a problem
>with white men having intimacy with our women -- it is not my business to look
>into whom you date and marry. But please, don't make up those kind of rubbish
>that we don't take good care of our women. For that Mr. Oliver Stone has lost
>all of my respect and I now consider him as a racist pig. A question for you
>to pound on before I depart: How many Asian men in "Joy Luck Club" are kind,
>loving people?
>
>It is me who is offended first. So show me your good will before I show you
>mine. Your comments are welcome.
>
>Peace.
>
>
>Zheng.
Will, it is a good point.
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2pv071...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@nehi.cs.utk.edu (Michael Atherton
|> ) says:
|>
|> >
|> >I identified several films that I thought had positive roles for Asian
|> >males, do you disagree? For better or for worse the US is still
|>
|> Yes. I disagree. They are positive in that they are not the usual
|> drug dealer, evil kung fu master, non-feeling, asexual, often clown-like
|> roles Asian males often have gotten in American movies.
Could we discuss the movies individually rather than making
grand sweeping generalizations?
|>
|> >predominately WASP, shouldn't we expect them to be represented more
|> >often in film? And for every "sensitive" white male character you name, I
|> >think I could name an insensitive one. The lack of positive male Asian
|>
|> One thing that no one has brought up (I know, some of my followups are
|> reiterating things that have been said already...) is the fact that
|> even where minorities in general have positive roles, they have so much
|> less DEPTH than the positive (and even negative) roles that Whites get.
I would say that lack of DEPTH is a problem in 50% of the roles
in popular films regardless of the race of the character.
|>
|> Often insensitive White males are the heroes of the movie (meaning their
|> character actually has some semblance of a 3rd dimension, or at least
|> receives empathy from the audience).
|>
|> Often (almost always) Asian males are not, sensitive or no (meaning their
|> characters, even if played by people with such amazing ability as John
|> Lone, lack depth and seem plastic, while the main character, even if
|> played by such an obviously cardboard, pitiful excues for an actor as
|> Mickey Rourke, come off looking better)
|>
|> >characters may just be a reflection of their proportion in the population.
|> >Need I point out that an Asian male has won an Academy award for
|> >acting.
|>
|> I would bet that the White male who played the lead in said movie got
|> a more prestigious award, since the Asian male played a supporting role.
|>
Sorry, I don't think the White actor was even nominated. And the
Asian male portrayed a character who was supportive, but I don't think
the role was supportive (he had much more screen time).
|> =peace=
|> Scott Jung
|>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2q0an9...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu (Michael
|> Atherton ) says:
|> >
|> >Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
|> >roles for Asian males. How about "Empire of the Sun", small but positive
|> >roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
|> >leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
|>
|> If memory serves me correctly, "The Killing Fields" main character was
|> not Asian. Beyond Bruce Lee, a couple of low-budget action films, and
|> some films which have not received any degree of recognition (such as
|> "Combination Platter"), there are NO leading roles for an Asian man.
|>
Depends on how you define "main". I would say that main character WAS
the Asian.
|> Also, small but positive roles is kind of like food that doesn't help
|> your hunger, but doesn't taste foul. You're still hungry, but at least
|> it didn't make you any sicker...
So you want to have your cake and eat it too? ;)
|>
|> >|> Sure. But when 1% of movie roles go to Asian Americans, and the vast y
|> >majorit
|> >|> of those roles bit parts or as extras, something is wrong, don't you think?
|> >
|> >No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
|> >cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
|> >Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
|> >a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
|> >why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
|> >portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
|> >studios to block such projects?
|>
|> That's a good suggestion. It all comes down to money, though I think
|> the only way to get movies with an undiluted Asian Am viewpoint would be
|> to bypass the major studios, since they have shown little respect for
|> us in the past and show few if any signs that they plan to change at all.
Yep, I think it's a great suggestion. Why don't you take down the
names of all the Asians responding to the post and send them email
asking if they know of anyone who has big bucks and ask them for financing?
I'm sure that you could find a talented Asian film student at USC or
UCLA that would love to get involved in such a project and as you
suggest they are lots of talented Asian actors around to cast in it.
How about a film about the Japanese American troups in WWII I'm sure that
a great script could be developed out of this material. I'll galdly lay out
my six bucks to see it.
|>
|> >I disagree. If you have a piece of social research that proves your
|> >point I'd like to read it. Once again I've listed movies that I thought
|> >had positive roles, but you haven't seen them, and neither have you
|> >listed films that have negative roles for Asians.
|>
|> I have some papers on the subject. Most apply to African Americans,
|> but the points can all be applied to Asian Ams as well: early films like
|> "Birth of a Nation" by D.W. Griffith which portrays a Black man
|> (played by a White man) as a threat/rapist of innocent White women have
|> their Asian-Am parallels in such movies as "Sunday School Teacher and the
|> Heathen Chinese" (not sure if this is the verbatim title) and "The Yellow
|> Peril," in which a servant or laundryman causes some trouble and is in the
|> end set on fire and thrown off a building, for example....
|>
This is history! Let's get contemporary.
Yea, life sucks, but we've gotta keep move'n along.
Michael Atherton
Ok, so "low-budget/action martial arts films" are trash, whata ya expect?
Let's talk serious dramatic films.
|>
|> =peace=
|> Scott Jung
|>
--
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2q18ka...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu (Michael
|> Atherton ) says:
|> >
|> >|> Exactly. Studios don't believe such screenplays will sell, and so they
|> >|> don't back them. Not a conspiracy, per se, but the net effect is the same.
|> >|> Certainly this effect can be seen in 'Miss Saigon' where many of the
|> >|> formerly Asian men were changed to white men in order to increase audience
|> >|> draw. I don't believe that this change was necessary.
|> >
|> >Maybe they won't sell. What then? But I would probably agree that
|> >the change was not necessary in 'Miss Saigon'.
|>
|> You know what? Maybe they won't sell.... that's true.
|>
|> Then again, Spike Lee, Ernest Dickerson, Mario Van Peebles, the Hudlin
|> brothers, the Hughes brothers, Robert Townsend, and other African American
|> directors are doing well for themselves, so maybe there is some hope.
So, aren't we looking at movement that has been in motion for about
ten years? Ten years is pretty good for social movements.
|>
|> (this is about Rising Sun)
|> They still leave that doubt in the end, and when I spoke with a few
|> Latino and Black friends about the movie, they didn't remember the reedeming
|> parts about the Asian characters... which perhaps is the way it was
|> intended. Enough good Asian stuff so that the Asian viewers remember it,
|> and enough bad Asian stuff so that *everyone else* remembers...
|> And come on, a Japanese businessman who sings karaoke and eats sushi off
|> a White prostitute's belly?
I would suggest that what people remember from movies has quite a
lot to do with their own perspective. I thought the playboy's
role was tough and gritty; it certainly wasn't a weak stereotyped
role.
|> =peace=
|> Scott
just another theatre geek
Michael Atherton <athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu> wrote:
>No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
>cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
>Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
>a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
>why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
>portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
>studios to block such projects?
*sigh*
Given the connectivity problems, I doubt this will get out, but
a) most casting agencies turn down Asians who try out for non-
Asian specific roles
b) you don't get featured roles without a track record. You don't
get a track recordf without getting cast.
See a circle here?
>|> Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have insensitive and bad portrayals of
>|> whatever ethnic group as long as you mix in some positive ones. This is
>|> not the case for Asian American men.
>I disagree.
Then you disagree with research and the experiences of Asian
American actors in Hollywood.
Try looking at SAG studies on Asian American and other minority roles.
Also, I've done a fair amount of content analysis of roles of
Asian actors in mainstream films; the roles AREN'T varied. Please be
aware the existence of SOME positive roles does not negate Steve's
thesis; take a look at the resume of the typical Asian American
actor...it is NOT very diverse...
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
William Garrett
|> To made it worse, the women in the film almost all built better marriages
|> with White Americans. Was that just to appeal to the mainstream audience,
|> or to reflect sad experiences that the author may have had with Chinese
|> men? Whatever the reasons were, I find this rather irritating.
Too bad we can't ask her. I've had female friends tell me that they
don't date Chinese men because they're too traditional and conservative,
but I also know Chinese couples who are happy together. It's just
one movie, written from one person's perspective. I don't want to
see movies that have to be approved by committees. Why don't you
write your own screenplay and have it produced. If it's artisticly
well done I'd be glad to see it.
By presenting multiple relationships between two generations of Chinese
men and women the majority of which sour because of the men, the Joy Luck
Club seems to be making a fairly strong statement about the relationship
between Chinese men and women. Its not simply one characters story its
a number of charcters story and one of the undercurrents is the poor
treatment of Chinese women by Chinese men. This is of course
Amy Tan's opinion and one on which I have no basis to judge its accuracy.
My problems with the Joy Luck Club are more basic, I don't think the
Husband-Wife-Daughter relationships between the sets of characters
were sufficiently different or well developed. The director also went
for the kill several times in evoking cheap tears from the audience.
Tan's "The Kitchen God's Wife" which is quite similar to "The Joy Luck Club"
chooses to focus on a single Husband-Wife-Daughter relationship and in doing
so does a much better job of characterization and probably would have made a
stronger movie. I'm interested in seeing if Tan has another story to tell or
if we continue to get variations on her first two.
Bill Garrett
Michael Atherton
|>
|> : Possilbely...these stereotypes are portrayed because in Asian culture
|> : women do not have equality with men. I don't claim to be an expert
|> **********************************************************************
|> That was then this is now. Look at the Chinese woman now!
I would be much more comfortable hearing about how liberated Chinese
women are from Chinese women rather than from Chinese men.
|>
|>
|>
|> : on Asian culture, but I would like to point out that "Joy Luck Club"
|> : was written by an Asian woman. Also, "Raise the Red Lantern" depicts
|> ************************************************************************
|> I guess I can write a story about how bitchy American women are. Would
|> you believe that? Don't label Asians. Men all get horny, no matter what
|> color you are and women always mysterious. Do you know the historical
|> background of the "Raise the Red Lanter?" Even Chinese thinks the movie
|> is hard to believe. A director is not a historian. A movie is different
|> than a history book. Performing arts gotta have conflicts to spark the story.
|> Movie is no exception. In order to make "movie" watchable" and "markettable"
|> the director or writer has to come up with some "strange things" even making it
|> up! Nobody wants to watch a movie describing boring daily life, no conflicts,
|> no violence.....
|>
I don't understand how this response is related to my statement. Are
you saying that the events in "Raise the Red Lantern" could never
have occurred?
|>
|>
|>
|> : the abuse of women and was directed by an Asian man. Off hand I
|> *************************************************************************
|> I personlly don't like that director because his movies always have something
|> to do with sex. Most of the movies in Chinese don't cover that much about sex
|> cause sex is not the most important thing to talk about. But the western
|> countries thinks the sex is very important (very high priority). Almost every
|> movie will have some sex scenes (or a long hot kiss). Since it's hard to know
|> how Asians think about sex, any movie with some "sex" will become popular and
|> will be treated as "the Bible of Asian Sexual Life."
|>
I agree that sex is an overused theme in Western film, but what
sex there was in "Raise the Red Lantern" seemed important to the plot.
|>
|>
|> : can think of several movies that have had positive roles for Asian
|> : men: "Killing Fields", "Good Morning Vietnam", and "Heaven and
|> : Earth" (which by the way does not portray white American men in
|> : a very good light). I would be very interested to know what Asian
|> : women think about your opinion.
|> *************************************************************************
|> The movies you mentioned above are mainly talking about Americans. Asians are
|> just "assistant" role to make Americans look greater. "See, Asians need us to
|> save their ass, they don't know how to manage their countries so we went in
|> there die for them, and they don't give a shit,.......Americans are great, they
|> will die for a tiny little country's democracy......"
|> Give me a break, these movies maybe make Americans look bad but no way they are
|> trying to make Asians look good! Give up your egoism!
Please look for another posting about the "Killing Fields" by someone
else who agrees with me that the Asian males roles was not minor and
in fact was the major part of the film.
What egotism? Are you speaking of the egoism of Western culture, or
my personal egotism?
|>
|> Eddie
William Garrett
I couldn't keep all the characters straight. I also have problems with
their names. I think that you're right in assuming that having
an Asian background would help you remember the details in the film.
In fact this has been shown to be true in Psychological memory
research (I can provide references if you'd like).
I couldn't keep the characters straight either but it had nothing to do
with their being Asian. The stories were so similar that there was
no real need to keep the characters straight.
Well I cried a lot, but there's no way I can tell if I felt the
*same* empathy that you did. I'm sure that I missed a lot of
the subtle things that you picked up. When I saw "Farewell My Concubine"
I could tell that I was missing a lot of the symbolism.
Everyone around us was crying but my wife and I just wanted the thing
to be over after the first three substories were complete.
Joy Luck Club was no Farewell My Concubine.
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2q0an9...@cs.utk.edu>,
|> Michael Atherton <athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu> wrote:
|> >No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
|> >cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
|> >Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
|> >a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
|> >why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
|> >portrayals. Or do you think that there's a conspiracy among the
|> >studios to block such projects?
|>
|> *sigh*
|>
|> Given the connectivity problems, I doubt this will get out, but
|> a) most casting agencies turn down Asians who try out for non-
|> Asian specific roles
|> b) you don't get featured roles without a track record. You don't
|> get a track recordf without getting cast.
|> See a circle here?
So, please explain to me how the studios have picked up on Black films
and not on Asian ones. Could the reason be in part because of the
lack of Asian Americans who are willing to produce films? Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Asian Americans have a
much larger financial power base than Black Americans.
|>
|>
|> >|> Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have insensitive and bad portrayals of
|> >|> whatever ethnic group as long as you mix in some positive ones. This is
|> >|> not the case for Asian American men.
|> >I disagree.
|>
|> Then you disagree with research and the experiences of Asian
|> American actors in Hollywood.
|>
|> Try looking at SAG studies on Asian American and other minority roles.
Sorry, I'm an idiot, but what's an SAG study?
|>
|> Also, I've done a fair amount of content analysis of roles of
|> Asian actors in mainstream films; the roles AREN'T varied. Please be
|> aware the existence of SOME positive roles does not negate Steve's
|> thesis; take a look at the resume of the typical Asian American
|> actor...it is NOT very diverse...
What roles? What time period? What type of films?
|>
|> --
|> Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
|>
|> The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
--
chickadee
gar...@carafe.gte.com (William Garrett) writes:
i've made a lot of comments on the "Joy Luck Club" just recently. i've
never seen the movie, but thought it had a good reputation with most
ppl. i have read the novel, both of them in fact, when they first came
out. i guess i am a bit bothered b/c both novels were quite good, and
had significance to myself, being American Born Chinese. i guess i am
also bothered b/c my SO is white, and although, i the male is chinese,
and she the female is white, i feel that there is a slight bit of
hostility towards interracial relationships in some of the
posts...maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right. But oh well.
i just wanted to say that i feel Bill makes a very clear and relatively
unbiased analysis of the movie. Like i said, i haven't seen the movie,
but from what i can gather from the accounts posted here, i aggree with
Bill's posting...
Following Tao,
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> That's a good suggestion. It all comes down to money, though I think
>|> the only way to get movies with an undiluted Asian Am viewpoint would be
>|> to bypass the major studios, since they have shown little respect for
>|> us in the past and show few if any signs that they plan to change at all.
>
>Yep, I think it's a great suggestion. Why don't you take down the
>names of all the Asians responding to the post and send them email
>asking if they know of anyone who has big bucks and ask them for financing?
>I'm sure that you could find a talented Asian film student at USC or
>UCLA that would love to get involved in such a project and as you
>suggest they are lots of talented Asian actors around to cast in it.
>How about a film about the Japanese American troups in WWII I'm sure that
>a great script could be developed out of this material. I'll galdly lay out
>my six bucks to see it.
It's been done. In the specific case as well as the general case. The problem
is getting movie theaters to run an independent film. They don't do it for
very many, and many are not willing to take the risk -- especially for a
film starring Asian Americans. Unfortunately, we're dependent on the major
studios to effect change in the nationwide media sense.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>Ok, so "low-budget/action martial arts films" are trash, whata ya expect?
>Let's talk serious dramatic films.
Perhaps so, but certainly very popular 'trash'. Of course in the serious,
dramatic films Asian Americans aren't going to be stereotyped to the same
degree, simply because they're supposed to be *realistic* and the people making
and watching them are of supposedly higher intelligence. However, it's
undeniable that Asian Americans are stereotyped in the vast majority of
fluff and 'trash' films out there, which make up the vast majority of films
as a whole. This needs to be changed.
Something tells me that if white people were stereotypes as being asexual,
racist, wife-beaters, whatever or whatever in low-budget films, you wouldn't
be dismissing them as 'trash' and not caring.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>So, please explain to me how the studios have picked up on Black films
>and not on Asian ones. Could the reason be in part because of the
I'm not sure what the other poster was referring to, but certainly they
could have put an Asian American actor in 'Philadelphia' instead of Denzel.
Not saying it was a bad idea to put Denzel in it, but as an example. There
are tons of AA lawyers out there -- such a role would have certainly made
sense.
>lack of Asian Americans who are willing to produce films? Please
>correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Asian Americans have a
>much larger financial power base than Black Americans.
Wrong. Asian Americans = 3% of the population, African Americans = 12%.
Your hypothesis would mean that Asian Americans make four times more than
African Americans per capita. That's ridiculous. You may be defining
'financial power base' as rich members of those ethnic groups. The number
of African Americans who are millionaires is at least ten times over the
number of Asian Americans who are millionaires.
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Chan) says:
>
>I heard both Keanu Reeves (Ted in Bill & Ted) and Russell Wong have one
Keanu Reeves' father is Chinese/Hawaiian American. His mother is Caucasian.
>Chinese parent and one caucasian parent (like me). Anyone hear this as well?
Russell Wong's father is Chinese (Chinese American?), and his mother is
French (French American?)
>> Julian
Peace.
Steve Wei
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2q5nup...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@pepsi.cs.utk.edu (Michael
|> Atherton ) says:
|> >
|> >So, please explain to me how the studios have picked up on Black films
|> >and not on Asian ones. Could the reason be in part because of the
|>
|> I'm not sure what the other poster was referring to, but certainly they
|> could have put an Asian American actor in 'Philadelphia' instead of Denzel.
|> Not saying it was a bad idea to put Denzel in it, but as an example. There
|> are tons of AA lawyers out there -- such a role would have certainly made
|> sense.
That not something I'd readily admit to; being a lawyer that is.
"What's a good start..." :)
|>
|> >lack of Asian Americans who are willing to produce films? Please
|> >correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Asian Americans have a
|> >much larger financial power base than Black Americans.
|>
|> Wrong. Asian Americans = 3% of the population, African Americans = 12%.
|> Your hypothesis would mean that Asian Americans make four times more than
|> African Americans per capita. That's ridiculous. You may be defining
|> 'financial power base' as rich members of those ethnic groups. The number
|> of African Americans who are millionaires is at least ten times over the
|> number of Asian Americans who are millionaires.
Could you provide me with a reference?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
pome...@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
not Asian (or even Asian-American), I really loved this book (though
not as much as THE WOMAN WARRIOR by Maxine Hong Kingston which is very
similar). I was quite excited when I sawe that it was going to be
made into a film, but was equally dissapointed when I actually saw the
piece of crap.
Alright, it wasn't really a piece of crap, but it was a piece
of sentimental hogwash. The whole structure of the film was annoying
(Close up, voice over, fade to memory, back to present, brought out of
reverie, close up, voice over, etc) and the script was ridiculous. It
had no qualms aboutt being sentimental and jerking the tears right out
of your eyes. It had all the subtlty of a sledge hammer. I did enjoy
the scenes in China, but it just could have been such a better movie!
I feel like it got such critical acclaim becasue it had an almost all
Asian cast and Asians are so overlooked in mainstream films. It also
had some great acting and I'm sorry that we probably wont hear too
much from any of those wonderful women again (although I really hope
I'm wrong. Especially the woman who played Rose)
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Dorothy
Scott Jung
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> If memory serves me correctly, "The Killing Fields" main character was
>|> not Asian. Beyond Bruce Lee, a couple of low-budget action films, and
>|> some films which have not received any degree of recognition (such as
>|> "Combination Platter"), there are NO leading roles for an Asian man.
>|>
>
>Depends on how you define "main". I would say that main character WAS
>the Asian.
From what I recall, and another individual recently wrote, the movie is
centered (unnecessarily?) around the White photojournalist's viewpoint,
perhaps because a movie from the Asian character's viewpoint would not
sell...
I have not seen the movie in some time, though.
>|> Also, small but positive roles is kind of like food that doesn't help
>|> your hunger, but doesn't taste foul. You're still hungry, but at least
>|> it didn't make you any sicker...
>
>So you want to have your cake and eat it too? ;)
:)
>Yep, I think it's a great suggestion. Why don't you take down the
>names of all the Asians responding to the post and send them email
>asking if they know of anyone who has big bucks and ask them for financing?
>I'm sure that you could find a talented Asian film student at USC or
>UCLA that would love to get involved in such a project and as you
>suggest they are lots of talented Asian actors around to cast in it.
>How about a film about the Japanese American troups in WWII I'm sure that
>a great script could be developed out of this material. I'll galdly lay out
>my six bucks to see it.
Interesting you should mention CA film students; (now I get to put
in a plug for our rap group!) it so happens that we are contributing
music for the soundtrack of just such a film (except it's not about WWII).
This movie, written and directed by Sung Kim out of Los Angeles, is a short
film (just under an hour) which is centered around Asian-American youth
who organize a hip-hop concert (there's actually much much more to the movie,
but I don't want to spoil it for anyone). The soundtrack of the film will
consist of a number of talented Asian American musicians (among them Steve
Wei, myself, and infrequent s.c.a.a. poster Chris Wang).
I really don't know too many other details about the making of the
film, other than that it is filled with Asian-Am roles with depth to
them, and the script is really cool. Plus Sung is a big HK movie fan,
which shows in the script. I personally would be very excited to see
this film whether our music was in it or not.
I know nothing about his financial situation, since I don't think we
ever asked... I would bet that there's not as much support for his film
as there could be...
-*>hardcore blatant D.O.A. plug mode on<*-
I do know, however, that I'm broke like a Timex that's taken one too
many lickin's, and that we have a whole pile of tapes (with music which
will be featured in the film) for sale for real cheap, and that we, like
anyone else who plans/hopes to make it anywhere, need some support... if
anyone's interested in a tape or 2 (or just giving us a whole bundle of
money... that would work too), please see Steve's post from a couple
days back or Email one of us for details...
-*>hardcore blatant D.O.A. plug mode off<*- :P
(Sung posts to this newsgroup as well... If you're out there, please
make additions/corrections as you see fit...)
>
>|> I have some papers on the subject. Most apply to African Americans,
>|> but the points can all be applied to Asian Ams as well: early films like
>|> "Birth of a Nation" by D.W. Griffith which portrays a Black man
>|> (played by a White man) as a threat/rapist of innocent White women have
>|> their Asian-Am parallels in such movies as "Sunday School Teacher and the
>|> Heathen Chinese" (not sure if this is the verbatim title) and "The
>Yellow
>|> Peril," in which a servant or laundryman causes some trouble and is in e
>th
>|> end set on fire and thrown off a building, for example....
>|>
>
>This is history! Let's get contemporary.
True. Things have definitely changed since then, but IMHO are far from
ideal, as you can probably tell...
Some of the papers have more recent examples, I'll post a few...
>Yea, life sucks, but we've gotta keep move'n along.
Dig it.
=peace=
Scott
Michael Atherton
|> In article <2q5j73...@CS.UTK.EDU>, athe...@pepsi.cs.utk.edu (Michael
|> Atherton ) says:
|> >
|> >Ok, so "low-budget/action martial arts films" are trash, whata ya expect?
|> >Let's talk serious dramatic films.
|>
|> Perhaps so, but certainly very popular 'trash'. Of course in the serious,
|> dramatic films Asian Americans aren't going to be stereotyped to the same
|> degree, simply because they're supposed to be *realistic* and the people making
|> and watching them are of supposedly higher intelligence. However, it's
|> undeniable that Asian Americans are stereotyped in the vast majority of
|> fluff and 'trash' films out there, which make up the vast majority of films
|> as a whole. This needs to be changed.
I agree.
|>
|> Something tells me that if white people were stereotypes as being asexual,
|> racist, wife-beaters, whatever or whatever in low-budget films, you wouldn't
|> be dismissing them as 'trash' and not caring.
Quite the contrary, they'd be just as trashy as they are now.
BTW, I don't have a big stake in being white. ;)
|> Peace.
|> Steve Wei
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
michael jung
Michael Atherton <athe...@pepsi.cs.utk.edu> wrote:
>
>So, please explain to me how the studios have picked up on Black films
>and not on Asian ones. Could the reason be in part because of the
>correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Asian Americans have a
>much larger financial power base than Black Americans.
What exactly does this have to do with Asian Americans producing films? I
thought the money comes from (White) production studios and film companies
who bankroll the projects and control who gets the money and who doesn't.
Eva Y Tsai
|> |>
|> |> To made it worse, the women in the film almost all built better marriages
|> |> with White Americans. Was that just to appeal to the mainstream audience,
|> |> or to reflect sad experiences that the author may have had with Chinese
|> |> men? Whatever the reasons were, I find this rather irritating.
|>
|> Too bad we can't ask her. I've had female friends tell me that they
|> don't date Chinese men because they're too traditional and conservative,
|> but I also know Chinese couples who are happy together. It's just
|> one movie, written from one person's perspective. I don't want to
|> see movies that have to be approved by committees. Why don't you
|> write your own screenplay and have it produced. If it's artisticly
|> well done I'd be glad to see it.
other reasons why they prefer Caucasian men. One reason is that dating
Caucasian men shows that they fit in the mainstream of American society,
and they speak fluent English. Another reason is that asian men are
portrayed as nerds and abusers by the media. I remember I met an asian
woman who was abused by her American ex-husband insisted that asian men
are real abusers.
Having grown up in a sweet family, I have always been puzzled why
people hold this misconception. My father is a man with few words, but
loving and tolerant in all ways.
|>
|> By presenting multiple relationships between two generations of Chinese
|> men and women the majority of which sour because of the men, the Joy Luck
|> Club seems to be making a fairly strong statement about the relationship
|> between Chinese men and women. Its not simply one characters story its
|> a number of charcters story and one of the undercurrents is the poor
|> treatment of Chinese women by Chinese men. This is of course
|> Amy Tan's opinion and one on which I have no basis to judge its accuracy.
|>
|> My problems with the Joy Luck Club are more basic, I don't think the
|> Husband-Wife-Daughter relationships between the sets of characters
|> were sufficiently different or well developed. The director also went
|> for the kill several times in evoking cheap tears from the audience.
|> Tan's "The Kitchen God's Wife" which is quite similar to "The Joy Luck Club"
|> chooses to focus on a single Husband-Wife-Daughter relationship and in doing
|> so does a much better job of characterization and probably would have made a
|> stronger movie. I'm interested in seeing if Tan has another story to tell or
|> if we continue to get variations on her first two.
|>
|> Bill Garrett
I personally think that The Joy Luck Club deteriorated to a soap
opera type of thing. Some of the conversations between daughters and
mothers are way too emotional. The main goal of the movie, as I observed,
was to make the audience cry: "If The Joy Luck Club can't make you cry,
nothing else will," commented by one critic.
Amy Tan's second book, "The kitchen God's Wife", to me is just a
repeated version of her first book. I feel that she has exhausted all her
stories. I will also be interested seeing if she has another story to tell.
Eva
Keith Meng-Wei Loh
entirely the whole representation of an Asian experience by itself and without
context. It certainly isn't, nor should it be seen as the main bible for
which viewers should get all their ideas about Asians. I can understand why
Asians might feel embarassed or be eager to invalidate such a work when
there is so little out there. Yet, to put such pressure on what is an
individual work to me is quite sad. When the JLC was first released, I
involved myself deeply in the discussion of the 'negativity' of males in
what is obviously a movie about mothers and daughters. I'm rather surprised
it has taken this long for people to pipe up about racism, etc. Though,
not to dismiss some very valid comments some have made about the nature of
the North American film industry, distribution and viewership, to me all this
means very little beside what to me was a very powerful, meaningful and
well crafted story that stood well on its own. So while it may be useful to
inform the North American viewing public (or all the others who are privy to
r.a.m.), I find it not very useful at all to criticize a movie because, in one
fell stroke, it fails to create a context for itself that one can only get
from knowing the Chinese, not through media but through life.
--
"Believe those who are seeking truth; doubt those who find it." --
Andre Gide / Keith Loh / l...@sfu.ca / graduated and going back to
school / Burnaby, British Columbia / ask me for the poem of the week!
Michael Atherton
The money can come from any number of sources: banks, investment groups,
or individuals.
M. Sun
[lines omitted]
>in my Chinese heritage. i am a student of Taoism, and have researched
>much Chinese history. i can't say that i know that much about Chinese
>culture though. However, i think that Amy Tan's story is just that...a
>novel of something that may have happened in Real Life. i don't think
>it gives anyone a biased perception of Asians...IMO.
[lines omitted]
>You make it sound like that we are set into one mindset/personality.
>_The Joy Luck Club_ is a _STORY_ and only that. i don't believe that
>it is making any generalizations about gender relationships between
>Asians.
Perhaps, for you or me, _The Joy Luck Club does not form a stereo-
typical image of Asian males. However, to many viewers in an American theater,
who are not intimately familiar with Asian cultures, but must instead form
their opinions of Asians based on the bits that they catch from time to time,
_TJLC may be their first in-depth look inside an Asian culture (Chinese); thus,
it would be quite easy to form a generalization that all Asian males are cold,
selfish, lecherous creeps (and, unfortunately, the few cases where this is true
serve only to reinforce the stereotype).
IMHO, the way to approach this situation, where a movie or a work of
literature may lead to stereotyping, is to make sure everyone understands the
truth. As Asians, we have to admit that traditional Asian cultures are, in
fact, quite biased against females, and we should try to change that as much as
possible. At the same time, we should also try to show _positive_ examples as
well, so that other groups will see that, while _some_ Asian males are indeed
sexist pigs, many others are not.
We cannot avoid looking at the truth, even when it may be embarrassing
to ourselves, but we should also remember to look at the _whole_ truth.
--
-M. Sun
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> Something tells me that if white people were stereotypes as being asexual,
>|> racist, wife-beaters, whatever or whatever in low-budget films, you
>wouldn't
>|> be dismissing them as 'trash' and not caring.
>
>Quite the contrary, they'd be just as trashy as they are now.
>BTW, I don't have a big stake in being white. ;)
I apologize. I made a conclusion about your ethnicity based on your last
name. Certainly you could be of mixed ancestry or African American or
something. What threw me is my dorm is named after a dead white guy with
your last name... :P
>Michael Atherton | The opinions expressed above
Peace.
Steve Wei
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Atherton ) says:
>
>|> >lack of Asian Americans who are willing to produce films? Please
>|> >correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Asian Americans have a
>|> >much larger financial power base than Black Americans.
>|>
>|> Wrong. Asian Americans = 3% of the population, African Americans = 12%.
>|> Your hypothesis would mean that Asian Americans make four times more than
>|> African Americans per capita. That's ridiculous. You may be defining
>|> 'financial power base' as rich members of those ethnic groups. The number
>|> of African Americans who are millionaires is at least ten times over the
>|> number of Asian Americans who are millionaires.
>
>Could you provide me with a reference?
Hmmmm... this is something I heard an Asian American activist quote on TV
when asked about the model minority myth. It may or may not be a correct
statement, but let's break it down. First of all, African Americans have the
advantage of population -- 4 times Asian Americans. Secondly, African
Americans are well represented in such lucrative fields as Hollywood, pro
sports, etc, while Asian Americans are not. You can certainly see how this
would skew results.
I'm not sure of the point of this argument, however...
Peace.
Steve Wei
Joan Shields
>|> This is a story about Chinese women! It is written by a Chinese American
>|> woman from a woman's perspective.
hua...@rpi.edu writes:
>Yes. I am aware of that. What I don't understand was that why none of the
>women in the film had a positive perspective on their countrymen.
You know, this really pisses me off, this attitude. "The Joy Luck Club"
was a movie about women, mothers and daughters. In order to be a "real"
movie many of you seem to think it HAS to include strong male characters.
Well, sorry to disappoint you but it didn't and it didn't have to - hell,
there was too much story packed into it already! There were at least two
positive asian males in the movie, granted they didn't get a lot of screen
time but still they were there. (one of the daughter's new boyfriend and
June's father)
All I hear is a lot of men whining because they didn't get the screen time
they think they deserve. Well, getting fucking over it!! You know how
many movies I've seen where there are NO women and if there are any they
are whores or sluts or clothes racks? Caucasian, Asian, African women -
all races and ethnic backgrounds. I'm getting sick of this whining and
moaning. It's just a fucking movie. You didn't like it then rent or go
see another. Don't whine cause you think you're stereotyped - you're
talking to someone who's been stereotyped all her life and who's a member
of a group that's been stereotyped for centuries and centuries.
Movies with positive asian/asian american roles:
"Living on Tokyo Time"
"Combination Platter"
"Chan is Missing"
"The Great Wall"
"Laser Man" (bad movie, I don't recommend it - lead actor is not very
good, acting-wise but Tony Leung Kar Fei is fun to watch)
"Dimsum"
"Eat a Bowl of Tea"
"Life is Cheap but Toilet Paper is Expensive"
"Mystery Train"
"Kung Fu Rascals"
"Big Trouble in Little China" (if anyone thinks Kurt Russell's character
was a played straight and not with a lot of
tongue in chgeek should see the movie
again)
"The Killing Fields"
I'm sure there are a few more at least but I'm tired and I want to go
home.
There are a lot of asian-american film-makers out there. Go to your
nearest video store and ask for the movies or directors ie: Wayne Wang,
Ang Lee, et al. Don't just whine about it!!!!!!
Get a subscription to Asian Cinevision!
Asian CineVision is a non-profit national media arts center dedicated to
the development of and Asian-American films and filmakers. I sent for
information and they sent me a big envelope of stuff including copies of
their newsletter. The newsletter is full of articles, photos, schedules
for festivals and special showings in NYC and other places, personal data
about directors etc.
For more information write to:
Asian CineVision, Inc.
31 East Broadway
New York, NY 10002
212-925-8685
212-925-8157 (fax)
You know, I wonder, if "The Joy Luck Club" had been a movie about asian-
american sons and fathers and they women's roles reduced, in other words,
visa versa, would there be as much an uproar? Somehow I doubt it cause I
don't think I've heard one man here say, "Wow, isn't great that asian-
american women have a movie where they're portrayed a little more
realistically - where they're not just ornaments. It's not perfect but it
is a start. Maybe I ought to go down to my nearest movie rental place
and see if I can find anymore movies these actresses are in."
joan
michael jung
Michael Atherton <athe...@pepsi.cs.utk.edu> wrote:
>In article <2q6els$1...@scratchy.reed.edu>, mj...@reed.edu (michael jung) writes:
>or individuals.
Umm, so what does this have to do with major production studios, of whom
Asian Americans have a limited participation (and not the same financial
"power base," whatever that means, as blacks)? I don't understand. If you
want to deal a film that will show up in all of the, say, ACT III or AMC
theaters in the country, you generally have to deal with the existing
(white) power structure, who may not be so open to films that don't fit into
what they have to say...
michael jung
And I think the 3% you're talking about, if this man needs this kind of
reference, is the U.S. Census Bureau.
>I'm not sure of the point of this argument, however...
Me neither...
Albert Sanghyup Hahn
portrayal of Asian American men in Hollywood is made even more conspicuous
by the exoticized/dragon lady/subservient-oppressed image of Asian
American women. I'm actually a little startled that this thread is still
arguing about whether or not Asian American male portrayals are negative
or not. Anyway, onto my post:
Michael Atherton (athe...@dr-pepper.cs.utk.edu) wrote:
: In article <94120.231...@psuvm.psu.edu>, <SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
: Oh BTW I thought of another, "Welcome to Paradise" had good supporting
: roles for Asian males.
Really? I saw this movie. I thought it sucked. The movie was
basically all entirely from a white man's point of view. How can you make
a movie about J. internment from a white man's point of view? Oh, here's the
link: he's desperately in love with a beautiful Japanese American woman
who is being interned...hmmm...something fishy here...why not do the movie
from her point of view? It would have been so much more compelling, and
would have made much more common sense. I could understand how changing
point of view is necessary for "artistic" value and all that, but why is
is it that there's always a white perspective thrown in there, usually the
primary one, to experience the Asians?
: roles. I have to admit though that I can't think of a film with
: leading role for an Asian man other than the "Killing Fields".
I don't think one person's movie acumen is what's important here...I think
instead we should try to understand what is the average movie goer's
impression of Asian American males and females. Picking out movies is, I
think, somewhat pointless. You have to look at the big picture. And I
think the big picture is that Asian Americans do not get good roles. They
tend to get killed or do some other ridiculously one-sided personality sketch.
Asian American male portrayal tend to never really fulfill my appetites, and
Asian American female portrayals always tend to fulfill the audience's
appetites...
: No I don't. The roles depend on the story lines. There are lots of
: cop movies, why don't we see more Asians in them? Well maybe because
: Asians don't become cops that often (as I understand it, it's considered
: a low status job). There are number of very wealthy Asian Americans,
: why don't they produce screenplays with what you think would be better
: portrayals.
This is just great. I really think you should wonder what you're saying
here. So in order to get positive portrayal of Asian Americans in the
movies, Asian Americans themselves have to make the movies? Maybe Asian
Americans should build their own schools too if we want to learn Asian
American history. This is a sobering thought about Asian
Americans' inclusion into America as rightful citizens.
Oh, and about how great Heaven and Earth is, I heard something pretty
interesting...(and this I heard firsthand from a successful Korean
American filmmaker who goes to parties where he goes) Apparently Oliver Stone
has a big reputation for having some serious yellow fever...
If that's the way we're going to get "positive" portrayals of Asian
Americans...I'd rather watch all the damn Karate Kid movies and cheer on
that sexless, oh-so-wise Mr. Miyagi. Oh, but I forgot- he kisses his old
girlfriend and does karate. Maybe he is a stud after all, especially when
he kicks all those young Okinawan bucks' asses...
Albert
mink!
>Not a bad role, but not one that breaks stereotypes, either.
Geez. He seemed like a perfectly ordinary guy in the films and TV
to me. He gets his own ship, even, shows leadership, has an intense interest
in flying helicopters (at least in the books), has no accent, is from San
Francisco... how is this really furthering any kind of stereotype?
Or.. are we now to say that any role having an AA male in it must
actively work to BREAK stereotypes? They cannot be normal people, but must
be far out and above all the others, or? It's just going to lead to another
stereotype that way, and preclude people from all kinds of roles because
the directors are going to think that in order to cast an AA male, it has to
be a certain role that breaks stereotypes. I thought Sulu was great sensitive
yet strong guy...
Maiko Covington
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>american sons and fathers and they women's roles reduced, in other words,
>visa versa, would there be as much an uproar? Somehow I doubt it cause I
If the female characters had remained positive portrayals, I don't think
so. However, if the AA women had been portrayed as docile, submissive,
exotic, whatever, then certainly someone would have said something. At
least I would have. The argument here is not that Joy Luck Club didn't
have Asian American men in it and that's bad, but that the A/AA men in
the film were portrayed stereotypically. The two postive AA men you refer
to were the new boyfriend (screen time = 5 seconds), and the father, who
was a nice old oriental man. The negative characters include the husband
with the three wives that raped one of them and was basically a bastard,
Russell Wong's character who abused his wife, cheated on her, and was
basically a bastard, the young husband who was mean to his wife and was
a failure, sexually, and was basically a spoiled bastard, the money-grubbing
accountant husband who disrespected his wife and was basically a bastard
and Tamilyn Tomita's first husband (referred to) whom she divorced because
he was a bastard. Surely you can see how some people might get angry at
such a negative and one-sided view of Asian/Asian American men/husbands.
>don't think I've heard one man here say, "Wow, isn't great that asian-
>american women have a movie where they're portrayed a little more
>realistically - where they're not just ornaments. It's not perfect but it
If I may disagree, I think that opinion *has* been expressed. Joy Luck Club
is a great film for Asian American women, definitely, and therefore for
Asian Americans as a whole. However, it's *not* that positive for Asian
American men. I don't see the harm in pointing that out.
>is a start. Maybe I ought to go down to my nearest movie rental place
>and see if I can find anymore movies these actresses are in."
You'd be disappointed. The two films you'd find would be "The World of
Suzy Wong" and "The Karate Kid II". In both, the Asian American actress
plays an exotic sex object who worships a white male savior.
Plus the movies suck.
>joan
Peace.
Steve Wei