360 Systems file compatiblity
Brian James
Broadcast wav, and AIFF files to and from the TCR4 & 8 master recorders.
This means that for those of you who have purchased or have interest in TCR
for production, you can now spit out a DVD or other delivery media to post
at days end in the format of choice.
For the Deva bunch, the DVD you deliver to post can be loaded and played out
on a reliable, inexpensive, post friendly machine ($4995 retail, TCR4).
Lets thread!
Brian James
360 Systems
Peter Kurland
Peter Kurland
Peter Kurland
Jeff Wexler
>>
>> Brian James wrote:
>>> For the Deva bunch, the DVD you deliver to post can be loaded and played out
>>> on a reliable, inexpensive, post friendly machine ($4995 retail, TCR4).
>>>
It is still unclear to me, particularly after the but of confusion that
showed up regarding the TCR4/8 and its DVD-RAM drive, whether you can fully
use the DVD-RAM drive just as you would a DVD-RAM drive (outboard) hooked up
to the SCSI on various other devices, not the TCR. Please clarify. When you
say above that "the DVD you deliver to post can be LOADED and played out..."
(my emphasis) do you still mean that the data on the DVD-RAM disk can be
READ but must be transferred to the internal HD to actually play?
What's the whole story?
Jeff Wexler
Glen Trew
a big surprise that the 360 Systems TCR-4 and TCR-8 don't actually have this
ability. These machines have to transfer the files from the DVD to the
internal hard drive before playing them back. After relaying these promises
to the industry which was looking forward to a more widely accepted use of
the DVD RAM media, it was very disappointing.
When will the 360 Systems TCR 4 & TCR 8 be able to play SD2 and BFW files
directly from the DVD disk? Having to download the DVD to the TCR-4's
internal hard drive at near real time is a step backward from the timecode
Nagra's 20 year old technology instead of the step forward we had hoped for.
Hopefully I'm missing something, but I don't understand what the technical
barrier is in playing the DVD disk. The Deva can do it even though it was an
after-thought. The Tascam and AKAI dubbers can do it. Are there plans for
the 360 Systems TCR machines to have this now common ability too? Since the
planned market for the 360 TCR machines seems to include film post
production, I certainly hope so.
Glen Trew
Peter Kurland <pkur...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39136944...@earthlink.net...
> Just kidding, Mr. Sanders.
>
> Peter Kurland wrote:
>
> > When is the DC-powered version available?
> >
> > Peter Kurland
> >
> > Brian James wrote:
> >
> > > Wanted to let you know that we are now able to import/export SDII,
wav,
> > > Broadcast wav, and AIFF files to and from the TCR4 & 8 master
recorders.
> > > This means that for those of you who have purchased or have interest
in TCR
> > > for production, you can now spit out a DVD or other delivery media to
post
> > > at days end in the format of choice.
> > > For the Deva bunch, the DVD you deliver to post can be loaded and
played out
> > > on a reliable, inexpensive, post friendly machine ($4995 retail,
TCR4).
> > >
Michael Filosa
With regards to a "DEVA produced DVD", are we talking "real time audio load-in"
to the TCR4 ,
or is this a FILE transfer into the machine's HD from the DVD, at a much faster
rate ?
Speed is important in post, too!
MF
Michael Filosa
Atlanta Field Production, Inc.
Audio & Imaging Services for
Film, Videotape, & Live Broadcast
404-636-9988 / fx 9989
Brian James
Sorry if any confusion was generated by our loose verbology as to how we
were going to deal with file compatibility issues in the "near term".
Yes, with this current revision, you will need to load the audio from the
DVD (if you recorded on Deva) to the hard disk for playout. Single track
load time is 4x, 2 track is 2x, and 4 track is approximately real time. Of
course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record directly
to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without load
time (10k for two machines sound about right?).
Are you saying that having an assistant push a button to load a file an hour
or two before a telecine session completely negates the pricing ($4995
retail) and function advantage the TCR provides? OK, I've been there, you
may get a gripe in some situations. Still, It seems to me that it would be a
much easier sell for someone wanting to get Deva on a show to go this route.
Yea, direct playout of files off of DVD would be great. Hope you get over
you dissappointment soon. I think if packaged and presented to a production
in the right way, having a TCR in the equation may help your dilemma.
BJ
Glen Trew wrote in message ...
*the Rubber*toes*
<brian...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Wanted to let you know that we are now able to import/export SDII, wav,
>Broadcast wav, and AIFF files to and from the TCR4 & 8 master recorders.
hello there.
Just a question, is this now, at the present moment possible , and not
before ?
>Yes, with this current revision, you will need to load the audio from the
>DVD (if you recorded on Deva) to the hard disk for playout. Single track
>load time is 4x, 2 track is 2x, and 4 track is approximately real time.
Why ? Is it the Deva Format which is causing the delay ? or is it the
current DVD speed ?
Doe it have to do with the access time of DVD ?
>Of
>course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record directly
>.to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without load
>time (10k for two machines sound about right?).
Ehhh. Because the audio format on the DVD is another you can use it
direct ?
>Lets thread!
How about a *quiet* fan ? :-)
>
>Brian James
>360 Systems
>
Robert
Jeff Wexler
James at brian...@earthlink.net wrote on 5/6/2000 10:27 AM:
> Are you saying that having an assistant push a button to load a file an hour
> or two before a telecine session completely negates the pricing ($4995
> retail) and function advantage the TCR provides?
Jeff Wexler comments:
It is not that this realization of how the TCR handles use of DVD-RAM media
negates its possible use in post with the DEVA in production, it just means
we have to look at the whole process again with a different analysis. As I
had mentioned before, as a general rule, post production houses do not like
to purchase something that only does one thing (for example, being "forced"
to purchase a Nagra T-Audio for center track timecode, a Nagra-D to access
those tracks, a DEVA to be able to use a DEVA hard drive directly, etc.). As
it stands now, if a post house already has a Tascam MMR-8 (which we agree is
a VERY versatile machine in use at many post houses) all they really need to
purchase is an outboard SCSI DVD-RAM drive to make use of DVD-RAM disks
directly regardless of how they were "recorded" (by a DEVA in mirror mode,
by a TCR, by a ProTools Mac with a DVD-RAM drive, etc.). The cost of this
drive, on the low end, is presently $350.00.
The TCR, if it is not going to be used for any other hard disk recording,
play out or synchronization issues (because a given post house already has
devices to accomplish these things) trying to sell a $5000.00 device to post
to be able to access industry standard sound files on a DVD-RAM disk, and to
not be able to access those files directly, is a tough sell in my way of
thinking. If, on the other hand as we were originally led to believe, this
$5000.00 TCR could play out DVD-RAM disks DIRECTLY and deal with various
sync issues that may be present, this would be a viable choice, certainly
for a post house that does not yet own ANY hard disk based device such as
the TCR or the MMR-8.
Regards, Jeff Wexler
>>>> Brian James wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wanted to let you know that we are now able to import/export SDII,
>> wav,
>>>>> Broadcast wav, and AIFF files to and from the TCR4 & 8 master
>> recorders.
William Sarokin
The TCR8 seems like a great machine at a great price, but if it can't
play the DVD's directly the cost savings is quickly eaten up in transfer
time. If I hand in a DVD with 2 hours of 4 track the post house will
NOT want to spend 2 hours transferring it to their harddrive before they
can begin their telecine session. Everybody's schedules are too tight,
especially on television. The $5000 price savings over a Deva or a
Tascam would be eaten up in less than 2 weeks of transfers. Another
problem is that once the DVD is transferred to the Hard Drive the HD has
to be erased before it can load in the next DVD. So if the picture or
sound editor wants to transfer a take that wasn't circled he has to
transfer the whole DVD into the HD before he can do the transfer. I've
been using 360 Systems equipment for a while. I used the AM16 16 by 16
digital patch bay for years. You make great stuff. Please make it a
priority for your software people to figure out a way to directly output
from the DVD's written in any of the standard formats. When you do that
I'll place my order before I finish reading the email that says 'it's
ready'.
Billy Sarokin
Brian James wrote:
>
> Glen,
>
> Sorry if any confusion was generated by our loose verbology as to how we
> were going to deal with file compatibility issues in the "near term".
> Yes, with this current revision, you will need to load the audio from the
> DVD (if you recorded on Deva) to the hard disk for playout. Single track
> load time is 4x, 2 track is 2x, and 4 track is approximately real time. Of
> course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record directly
> to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without load
> time (10k for two machines sound about right?).
> Are you saying that having an assistant push a button to load a file an hour
> or two before a telecine session completely negates the pricing ($4995
> retail) and function advantage the TCR provides? OK, I've been there, you
Glen Trew
> "Of course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record
directly
> to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without
load
> time"
Does this mean that the TCR will playback its own DVD recordings without
first loading onto the post production's TCR hard drive, but not the Deva's?
As far as post production dealing with load time, it's not only a guaranteed
gripe, it's likely a stopping point. We went through this years ago when
Nagra Pilotone recordings needed to be striped with time code on a Nagra T,
and later when TC dat recordings needed to be transferred to a Nagra T for
sync transfer. The transfer (or "load time") was unacceptable in terms of
time and expense required.
Of course, it's not just "having an assistant push a button to load a file
an hour or two before the session" as you illustrate, it's the time involved
and the inconvenience of not being able to begin a transfer session
immediately, especially when technology exists to play the DVD directly. But
yes, I believe this does negate the price advantage of a $5000 machine in a
$2,000,000+ facility.
If this limitation is a planned strategy on the part of 360, I'm afraid that
it only encourages the sales of the MMR-8 and DVD drive combos. I can't,
with good conscience, try to sell the TCR by presenting it "in the right
way". The only way I can present it is with its attributes and limitations,
along side the other options, and let the buyer decide. I was looking
forward to making the rounds to post facilities with the TCR. Now, I'm
having to re-think.
Sure, the TCR machines can be used in the field, and yes, $5000 can be saved
in the beginning. However, the TCR machines were never designed with the
intention of being a field recorder. I can only assume this because it is
quite heavy, there are no mic pres, no DC power input, no internal battery,
and not even a handle or a place to put a shoulder strap. The Deva is
already an awesome field recorder and the 360 Systems TCR-4/8 has the
potential of being an awesome post machine. With this in mind, I think that
if 360 Systems allowed the direct playback of DVD disks and promoted the
hell out of the Deva, and Zaxcom promoted the hell of the TCRs, this would
put the DVD RAM recording media as a standard firmly in place much
quicker -- something the industry desperately needs.
I hope that the present DVD capability of the TCRs is just a result of more
time needed to write the software, and that the plan is to have direct play
of DVD disks in the near future.
All the best,
Glen Trew
Brian James <brian...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lCYQ4.34771$g4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Glen Trew
I can imagine that the TCR's fan is much too noisey for use on the set.
GT
*the Rubber*toes*
wrote:
>Good point Roberto:
>
>I can imagine that the TCR's fan is much too noisey for use on the set.
Well, that was smallest problem. For 100 $ i put a whisper fan in
myself.
Second, an average 6 K Par Ballast is making a lot more noise.
But that's on the set's i work.
Bye.
R.
Brian James
Glen Trew wrote in message ...
>
>> "Of course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record
>directly
>> to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without
>load
>> time"
>
>Does this mean that the TCR will playback its own DVD recordings without
>first loading onto the post production's TCR hard drive, but not the
Deva's?
>
Yes, that is exactly what it will do. When TCR records, it always records in
it's native format. You select the DVD as the destination drive for record
and off you go. You can only record 4 tracks reliably to the DVD however.
The currently available DVD isn't fast enough to record any more. You can of
course copy 8 track files to the DVD, but recording directly, 4 is max
currently.
BJ
>Glen,
There are several telecine houses here in LA who have either purchased, or
are evaluating and seriously considering TCR as source decks in their bays
for exactly the reasons I mentioned (price and function). These houses don't
necessarily care one way or the other how their audio is delivered, DVD or
otherwise. They actually take the time as I described to load audio from
dat's or 1/4" tape so the can take advantage of TCR's features during
transfer. I guess that's why it is hard for me to believe that a file on a
DVD which is, in the worse case, a real time transfer (4 tracks) and much
faster if only 1 or 2 tracks should be much of a stumbling block.
When you get a chance, demo the TCR to a telecine house and tell me what
they think of the feature set, reliability and price.
And yes, it is true that TCR was not designed for over the shoulder, DC
operated field acquisition, but neither was the DA-88, and you see them on
the set quite a bit when track splitting is required. David MacMillan and
John Pritchett have switched to TCR's by the way.
I don't see TCR as a replacement or competition for the Deva which in my
opinion is a beautifully designed tool for a very specific task. TCR is
simply a high quality option that can be used in certain production
applications.
Lastly, I would love to be able tell you right now, when, what, and how the
few remaining mods will be finished up, but I can't. I can tell you however,
that the production community is a very high priority for me and for 360. In
the mean time, I hope that we dwell on the positives.
I understand both sides of the debate and I will pass along all of the input
and suggestions I receive in this forum, which I appreciate very much.
Please keep hammering.
BJ
Brian James
Yes, file import/export is now possible prior to this moment, currently now.
The Deva is delivering Bwav on PC formatted disks which we can load just
fine. It delivers SDII files on a PC formatted disk too which is a little
odd, but is something either Zaxcom or 360 will need to address.
The file load time is definitely related to the slowness of the current crop
of DVD hardware.
We had a B52's in our first machines, but the fans we replaced them with are
totally quiet.
BJ
*the Rubber*toes* wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 05 May 2000 17:31:31 GMT, "Brian James"
><brian...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Wanted to let you know that we are now able to import/export SDII, wav,
>>Broadcast wav, and AIFF files to and from the TCR4 & 8 master recorders.
>
>hello there.
>
>Just a question, is this now, at the present moment possible , and not
>before ?
>
>>Yes, with this current revision, you will need to load the audio from the
>>DVD (if you recorded on Deva) to the hard disk for playout. Single track
>>load time is 4x, 2 track is 2x, and 4 track is approximately real time.
>
>Why ? Is it the Deva Format which is causing the delay ? or is it the
>current DVD speed ?
>Doe it have to do with the access time of DVD ?
>
>>Of
>>course, don't let me stop you from using TCR in the field, record directly
>>.to the on board DVD for delivery, and playout on a TCR in post without
load
>>time (10k for two machines sound about right?).
>
Brian James
BJ
Glen Trew wrote in message ...
>Good point Roberto:
>
>I can imagine that the TCR's fan is much too noisey for use on the set.
>
>GT
>
>
>
Glen Trew
Has 360 considerred making a portable machine? Any plans?
Glen Trew
Brian James <brian...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dntR4.40220$g4.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
*the Rubber*toes*
<brian...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Roberto,
>
>Yes, file import/export is now possible prior to this moment, currently now.
Aha. I ask this, because the 360systems web site is telling this
already for more than 6 months.
.....
>
>The Deva is delivering Bwav on PC formatted disks which we can load just
>fine. It delivers SDII files on a PC formatted disk too which is a little
>odd, but is something either Zaxcom or 360 will need to address.
But, what's the internal audio & disk format of the 360 ?
I know by know that the Akai DD8 ( 4000 us$ ), and the Genex ( 5000
us $ ) have a destructive Record mode. That means that you can record
a few times the same take, and erase the old one, just like a tape
machine...Possible with your box ?
I guess not straight-to-dvd ( RORM ) but to Disk ?
And, how long is the time to copy from internal HD to DVD ?
Realtime ? ( please not :-)
Second, Does it have the Record -to -24 hour timeline mode ?
So, that Pre & Post roll is no problem anymore ?
Is there a way to use Computer as a Remote control ?
>The file load time is definitely related to the slowness of the current crop
>of DVD hardware.
Does this mean when faster DVD writers and players are coming, the
Deva - loading problem is solved ?
>
>We had a B52's in our first machines, but the fans we replaced them with are
>totally quiet.
Hmmm.. americans...:-)
>BJ
>
Roberto.
*the Rubber*toes*
<trammelant_i...@mieters.org> wrote:
>On Mon, 08 May 2000 06:44:26 GMT, "Brian James"
><brian...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
I thought you wanted to thread ?
R.
glenns...@my-deja.com
>
> The Deva is delivering Bwav on PC formatted disks which we can load
just
> fine. It delivers SDII files on a PC formatted disk too which is a
little
> odd, but is something either Zaxcom or 360 will need to address.
Hi Brian
There is nothing odd or irregular about any Deva recordings. Broadcast
Wave as well as SDII file formats can exist in any disk operating
system. Macs as well as PCs can play our SDII files. We do this at
ZAXCOM with our pro tools system as well as a PC with Quicktime. MMR8
as well as DDR8 are also compatible. If 360 needs our help to play our
disks directly we will be happy to supply what information and help
that we can.
Glenn
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.