Looking for experienced production sound person for low-budget Christian film

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never2la...@yahoo.com

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Jan 9, 2008, 10:05:09 AM1/9/08
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Hi all. . .

To some, this will seem like a ridiculous post. . . others, however,
may be genuinely interested.

I'm going to be directing a low-budget ($50,000 to $100,000 total, not
counting equipment purchases and rentals) feature this coming summer.
I have the video side of the story covered with two RED One cameras
(and possibly three REDs!) and a bright young film school graduate DP.
What I DON'T have covered at all is the audio side of the ledger.

I'm looking to hire a very responsible individual to both build the
audio workflow into something completely workable AND capture first
rate cinema-quality sound on location. We will not be filming on sound
stages. We'll be in a lot of unusual locations, some of which will be
challenging. I need someone who can put the audio side together with
great expertise and give me a really high-quality sound. I'm looking
for someone who can make this production sound wonderful. But. . .
there are other challenges, as well. . . read on.

I have some fine audio gear to work with, including a Sound Devices
442 mixer, two Schoeps CMC64s (stereo pair), and a carbon fiber boom
mounted Schoeps CMC641 with full Rycote protection. I also have two
Lectrosonics wireless systems (UM200C and UCR201) with Lectrosonic
M-150 and Countryman B6 microphones. The Countrymans can also operate
wired. I am willing to purchase additiional gear, such as a field
recorder (Sound Devices 744T), but will only do so if I am convinced
it's necessary.

Okay. . . enough of the background. Here's the question:

Are you, or can you recommend a great, truly expert sound recording
specialist that might be willing to work for 6 weeks this coming
summer for no more than $5000? I know the pay is ridiculously low, but
I'll be breaking my budget at that. Since this is a family friendly
film, I'm looking for people are sympathetic to such a venture or, at
the very least, won't be bringing a lot of baggage that might be
controversial on the set. This is a 100% drug- and profanity-free
production. Most of the individuals involved in the project are
professing Christians.

So, basically, I'm looking for the moon: A truly superb audio
specialist who is willing to work on a feature for peanuts, who won't
cause any problems.

The movie is being shot in Kansas. Here is the one sentence synopsis:

"Painters is a poignant, G-rated, romantic comedy feature film that
follows the lives of two recent small-town college fine art graduates
and a successful, yet unfulfilled insurance professional during a
magical summer in 'the big city.'"

Painters is set in the present day (with brief flashbacks) in rural
western Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri.

If you can recommend someone, please email their name and contact
information. If you can at least tell me where great, family-friendly,
low-cost audio specialists are known to congregrate, please email me
that information. If you think I'm dead meat and that no such thing
exists, well, please just be kind with your public posts.

Anyway, thank you very much for your help.

Sincerely,

Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.
NEVER2LA...@yahoo.com

j...@mw.net

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Jan 9, 2008, 12:49:54 PM1/9/08
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> NEVER2LATEStud...@yahoo.com


Your values are clear: Equipment is important. People and their
experience are not.

How do you demonstrate that? You'll put money into equipment but not
into people and their experience.

JB, C.A.S.

never2la...@yahoo.com

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Jan 9, 2008, 2:39:17 PM1/9/08
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JB, that is certainly one opinion, but it is not a fair
characterization of my situation.

Let me explain. I am not planning on making one film. I plan to make
several. I have a very limited amount of money. This is largely a
self-funded project. As we all know, the odds of this film
experiencing economic success are quite low. Indeed, if I were just
in it for the money, I'd have invested my money in a CD and left it at
that. At the end of the day, I'd have a lot more money and be able to
retire

The one thing I do know is that if I spend every dollar on hiring the
"best people" for this film, once the film "fails" economically, I'll
have zero ability to make another film. I won't have either great
gear or the ability to hire more people. It would be one and done.
Simple as that.

I plan to learn as much as possible this time around so as to be able
to play this game again with as little outside assistance as possible,
as I will likely not have as much money to "play with" the next time.

As for the audio gear itself, a lot of it comes from my basement
recording studio. And, guess what, the story is the same there. It
would have been cheaper and easier to rent a recording studio for my
first CD, and, at the end of the day, it would have sounded better.
There's no doubt about that. But I would also not have had the
ability to make another CD. So it was a trade-off, as so much of life
is.

My hope is that I'll find people who are interested in this vision.
But perhaps not.

My question to you, JB, is this: Turning your own logic from your
post back on itself implies that what you value is money--not art nor
the ability to help others learn your craft. But that statement would
be as unfair to you as your original statement to me.

It's all about tradeoffs. My guess is that, in a world without
constraints, you'd actually love to help me with my project (or one
similar to it). Economic realities just "get in the way."
Accordingly, my tradeoffs aren't yours and yours aren't mine. We're
just different people in different places in our journeys.

But I do appreciate your post.

Sincerely,

Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.

Soundhaspriority

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Jan 9, 2008, 3:30:13 PM1/9/08
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<never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:572a169d-f683-4c04...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> JB, that is certainly one opinion, but it is not a fair
> characterization of my situation.
>
> Let me explain. I am not planning on making one film. I plan to make
> several. I have a very limited amount of money. This is largely a
> self-funded project. As we all know, the odds of this film
> experiencing economic success are quite low. Indeed, if I were just
> in it for the money, I'd have invested my money in a CD and left it at
> that. At the end of the day, I'd have a lot more money and be able to
> retire
>
> The one thing I do know is that if I spend every dollar on hiring the
> "best people" for this film, once the film "fails" economically, I'll
> have zero ability to make another film.

Unfortunately, you trust your vision, but you don't trust your ability to
detect talent in a sound person of limited experience. This bodes poorly for
your choice of a "bright young film school graduate." His credentials are
virtually meaningless.

The people on this board expect to be paid for their experience. The novelty
has long since worn off for them. Their lives are enriched by both financial
incentive, and the pleasure of working in a well-oiled production
environment, neither of which can be supplied by a newbie on his first time
out. I know this, because I've been down a very similar path such as yours.
The people you should try to reach are not the battle hardened
professionals, but talented individuals of limited experience who have the
moral fiber to do their damndest.

You say you're doing Christian cinema. Use your spiritual perspective to
find those people. The right ones will work their asses off for you, because
they have the right character, and it's the right job at the right time.

But it's not for the pros. They deserve to be paid for their slipped disks,
torn ligaments, and flat feet. To them, your offer has the perspective of a
familiar horror show, and justifiably so.

You have hubris. It can serve you well, once you learn how to apply it in
the right social context. With all sincerity, I wish you good luck on your
project.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Document...@gmail.com

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Jan 9, 2008, 3:36:23 PM1/9/08
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($50,000 to $100,000 total, not
> counting equipment purchases and rentals)
50 to 100k for 6 weeks as a mixer... sure I might consider that,
except for the well documented tourettes!

> So, basically, I'm looking for the moon: A truly superb audio
> specialist who is willing to work on a feature for peanuts, who won't
> cause any problems.

Are sound mixers known to cause problems?

> The movie is being shot in Kansas.  

are you paying transport and perdiem?

On a serious note, last I heard, the Red with current software does
not record to disk, double system, so it's off to ebay for a nice
nagra.

Good luck in finding an experienced sound tech, that will work without
gear and still smile ( I do wish you luck, really )

and ps: bad luck with googles trunkating your email "stud" ouch...
> Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.
> NEVER2LATEStud...@yahoo.com

Robert

oleg kaizerman

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Jan 9, 2008, 3:51:31 PM1/9/08
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<never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4e94743b-bc6c-4469...@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...


> Hi all. . .
>
> To some, this will seem like a ridiculous post. . . others, however,
> may be genuinely interested.
>
> I'm going to be directing a low-budget ($50,000 to $100,000 total, not
> counting equipment purchases and rentals) feature this coming summer.

thats 100% difference - sorry but if you dont know your budget , how people
would ever belive you can produce the stuff
is taht the production mone , or with post and disterbuting , or you try to
make araf cut then try to sell it ?


> I have the video side of the story covered with two RED One cameras

why do you need 2 cameras for low budget comedy with 2 main characters ,
that another focus puller and another operator 2 individuals you will ahve
to feed
if that only for ocasianly operation so its ok

> (and possibly three REDs!) and a bright young film school graduate DP.
> What I DON'T have covered at all is the audio side of the ledger.

3 cameras - sorry , read my privius comment :-)
young dp - now i se the problem - you really have problem with person who as
i undersand from your post pushing you out your limmits , probably doesnt
know allot ofabout real film work , as i see it you will have allot of extra
time you want be able pay or wouldnt have time to shoot
you make low budget , find someone who is enusiastic about your project but
had this and know the real time numbers - young dp is trouble


>
> I'm looking to hire a very responsible individual to both build the
> audio workflow into something completely workable AND capture first
> rate cinema-quality sound on location.

ok , you are not looking for idiot , now every one have their standards -
from your post you are not in my standard as aproducer , even the money is
small i dont see you have any expirience make it ,
so you are not looking for expirience but for unexpirience who need make
jump higher then he is now - look for someone who made these films for free
and now can make it for small money - check the films he did , thats the
best way to find out what he worth .


>We will not be filming on sound
> stages. We'll be in a lot of unusual locations, some of which will be
> challenging. I need someone who can put the audio side together with
> great expertise and give me a really high-quality sound. I'm looking
> for someone who can make this production sound wonderful. But. . .
> there are other challenges, as well. . . read on.

try better location scouting or bring options , dont be cheap not to take
thesound person to see and hear it before your young dp will yell "this the
spot you must shoot " for every location or person there are 20 anothers ,
preparation - save you money on actual day .

>
> I have some fine audio gear to work with, including a Sound Devices
> 442 mixer, two Schoeps CMC64s (stereo pair), and a carbon fiber boom
> mounted Schoeps CMC641 with full Rycote protection. I also have two
> Lectrosonics wireless systems (UM200C and UCR201) with Lectrosonic
> M-150 and Countryman B6 microphones. The Countrymans can also operate

you will need good shotgun if you like shoot on non controlled places , the
schoeps is nice but not really on buisy streets

> wired. I am willing to purchase additiional gear, such as a field
> recorder (Sound Devices 744T), but will only do so if I am convinced
> it's necessary.

if the camera records good signal ( actually never worked with this one ) go
staright to the camera
i dont like what isee that it has mini xlr connectors which not suitable for
normal work. you will probably have allot of problems with conecting and
disconnecying without the dammage , better find solution to use some
interconnection to regullar xlr or anything not to disconnect them to much .
ok its limmiting you with stadycam and long dolies but thats life - if you
have 2 cameras you can use one as the master sound for these situations
744 - why - people make grate movies direct to nagar mono - so save your
money , if you like to invest invest it in 2 channel and mix down
iifd the camera sound is shit try to find someone who will bring his oun
recorder and donate him the money - people usially much eacy about their
gear then the sellery , or just trade the recorder as aditional payment the
guy woul earn as apart of the deal ( now you have 8 -9grand for the
soundman:-))


>
> Okay. . . enough of the background. Here's the question:
>
> Are you, or can you recommend a great, truly expert sound recording
> specialist that might be willing to work for 6 weeks this coming
> summer for no more than $5000? I know the pay is ridiculously low, but

its not rediculesly low - you pay what you have - take it or live it

> I'll be breaking my budget at that. Since this is a family friendly
> film, I'm looking for people are sympathetic to such a venture or, at
> the very least, won't be bringing a lot of baggage that might be

there is no sympaty in this world or on this group - this is the buisness
we pay grossery store dephts
look for proffesional - person who will commit to make the job acording the
agriment
these who will come from the simphty usially not worth my .

> controversial on the set. This is a 100% drug- and profanity-free
> production. Most of the individuals involved in the project are
> professing Christians.

dont tell it anyone :-)
make acontract that would make behaivoir ruls on the set - my or anyone free
time is not your bloody buisness :-)
by the way iam not chrisstian - is it kind of discrenenation rull you have ?


>
> So, basically, I'm looking for the moon: A truly superb audio
> specialist who is willing to work on a feature for peanuts, who won't
> cause any problems.

bad attitude -no one work for piinats - its call cellery .
couse problems ?- proffesional problems or what


>
> The movie is being shot in Kansas. Here is the one sentence synopsis:

do you provide housing /per dim ?you look for local ?
sorry you need open your cards - you are looking for pro , arent you?


>
> "Painters is a poignant, G-rated, romantic comedy feature film that
> follows the lives of two recent small-town college fine art graduates
> and a successful, yet unfulfilled insurance professional during a
> magical summer in 'the big city.'"
>
> Painters is set in the present day (with brief flashbacks) in rural
> western Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri.
>
> If you can recommend someone, please email their name and contact
> information. If you can at least tell me where great, family-friendly,
> low-cost audio specialists are known to congregrate, please email me
> that information. If you think I'm dead meat and that no such thing
> exists, well, please just be kind with your public posts.
>
> Anyway, thank you very much for your help.

you welcome , but before you really look for pro i think you need abit
learn how pro(ducers) act:-)
names - i can send you some but then you will need make them greencards and
tickets :-)
something you didnnt say - booman do you have one or this is also someone
from the college :-)
if you dont find one normal dont llok for professional soundman which hands
you cut .
if you dont find at least try find drummer /1.80 which can learn fast the
longer sick rulls .
sorry , my speller doesnt work so you will have to sweat abit if you doesnt
get what iam talking about .
oleg kaizerman
production sound mixer
hollyland ( holly its ilness /desias by the way )

Message has been deleted

Whitney Ince

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Jan 9, 2008, 3:54:24 PM1/9/08
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On Jan 9, 3:51 pm, "oleg kaizerman" <kaize...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <never2latestud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > NEVER2LATEStud...@yahoo.com

Since all "Professional Location Sound Mixers/Recordist" own there own
equipment, which we always prefer to use My advice would be to sell
your equipment. Then you could offer a "Professional Dayrate/Equipment
rental" and get a sound professional. Or offer to trade your gear for
a sound mixer early in my career I would often work a low budget film
for a smaller dayrate and get the production to purchase me a piece of
equipment. Just remember bad location sound is much harder to fix than
fixing a poorly lite scene and ADR is far more expensive than just
paying a a good sound recordist. A skilled recordist is also an
invaluable tool on a set where most people are "New" to the film
industry. My advice to you would be to either pay more for a
professional or ask around at your local film or audio school for a
bright student. You also say in your post, "I am willing to purchase
additiional gear" That means you have more money you could spend on a
sound mixer. At $5000.00 shooting 6 12 hour days a week (I am sure you
will shoot closer to 14 hour days) that is 432 hours of work which
works out to about $11.57 hour before taxes plus your going to need a
hard disk recorder, and other gear. I think you need to reevaluate
your approach here

ra...@telus.net

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Jan 9, 2008, 4:24:20 PM1/9/08
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Also try and keep in mind that with the combination of low budget and
inexperience, there is a inverse relationship between the number of cameras
and how good your sound will be.

never2la...@yahoo.com

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Jan 9, 2008, 4:31:57 PM1/9/08
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To all RAMPS individuals:

I sincerely apologize for insulting the professionals that inhabit
this forum. It was recommended by another individual that I put a
post on here with my audio requirements. I knew the odds were small,
but sometimes a small chance is better than no chance at all.

Please allow me to retract my offer.

I thank you for your comments, and wish you all the best with your
careers in 2008.

Sincerely,

Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.

audi...@bellsouth.net

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Jan 9, 2008, 4:45:50 PM1/9/08
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Perhaps "Craigs List" is a better place to look for help for your
project.


Eric

Jay Rose

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Jan 9, 2008, 5:05:59 PM1/9/08
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One other thought: if you're shooting with 2 or 3 cameras, getting good
boom sound is going to be a -lot- harder. Multi-camera shoots are
difficult even with experienced DPs and Mixers because you want to
match perspective on the CU but keep the mic out of the wide...

--
Jay Rose CAS
tutorials and other sound goodies at dplay.com
email is "jay@" plus the dot-com in the previous line.

Martin Harrington

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Jan 9, 2008, 5:22:16 PM1/9/08
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On 10/1/08 8:31 AM, in article
0dc3bc13-89b1-4297...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com,
"never2la...@yahoo.com" <never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Intresting...
Do a Google on never2latestudios and see what comes up.
Seems he is trying to get everything for free ...including editing on FCP.

Martin Harrington
len...@bigpond.net.au


j...@mw.net

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Jan 9, 2008, 5:32:33 PM1/9/08
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On Jan 9, 2:39 pm, never2latestud...@yahoo.com wrote:
> JB, that is certainly one opinion, but it is not a fair
> characterization of my situation.


It was totally fair. It was what I would have told a friend had he
posed the same scenario. Then I would have followed it with what I'm
about to tell you:

If you enter this business and stay around long enough, you'll learn
the value of the input you're receiving here. But, if you don't
bother to listen to those who have traveled the path before you,
you'll be left at the end with a poor movie and a pile of equipment,
and you won't have learned everything you could have.

Having built home recording setups, as well as more than one full-
fledged recording studio, and now own a small, but complete, film
production studio, I can tell you that the rationale you make with the
parallel to music recording doesn't really work. You can write a
novel in private and you can even record an album in private a track
at a time (if you know how to pre-set things properly), but filmmaking
is a collaborative venture. The quality of that collaboration
determines the outcome of the project -- not the quality of the
equipment.

I've seen projects shot on HI-8 and even VHS that have blown me away
and I've seen films shot on 70mm that were a waste of two hours.

If you're serious about learning filmmaking, work on some films. I
didn't say "finance some films" and I didn't say, "buy equipment and
make some films," I said work on some films. Since you have
admittedly limited resources, learn on someone else's dime. Follow
the project through the entire process and, if you're paying
attention, you'll learn that the most important two things lacking
from the majority of beginning efforts are: 1) script quality and 2)
a good sound mix. Notice I don't even mention picture quality.
Picture quality can vary widely and still be considered "an artistic
statement." Sound quality doesn't have that latitude.

What I'm trying to tell you is, IMO, based on lots of experience with
lots of beginning filmmakers, "You're not spending your funds wisely!"

If you want to end up with a great movie, 1) start with a script that
makes everyone who reads it want to sell their home and invest, 2)
budget for the best location sound possible, 3) support the sound
department in all their battles during production, and 4) budget for
the best sound post production you can afford. I'm not saying that
all the other elements and departments needed to make a good quality
production aren't important, of course they are. What I'm trying to
tell you is that those are the four areas that are neglected by a
majority of filmmakers -- to their peril. And, most of these budding
geniuses start out by SAYING how important they consider sound to be.
But, sadly, they do the same thing you're doing, they give it lip
service only. It's not that they don't care, but most beginning
filmmakers (and too many experienced ones) haven't a clue about
sound. Recording studio techniques and location sound are vastly
different. Even though you don't know it, to have a good film you
desperately need good, professional (and yes, that means PAID)
location sound work and good, professional post sound work.

I understand, in your mind, you may be the first person ever to get
the brilliant idea that if you buy a ton of equipment and then make a
movie, you'll be successful and ready to immediately make another
film. You'd be amazed at how many times, the people here have heard
that "brilliant idea" from newcomers. I can tell you with certainty
that if your goal is to make quality films, the NUMBER ONE thing you
will learn in time is, "hire quality professionals."

And now ...for free... the following is a simple filmmaking course
that can save you thousands of dollars and years of frustration: "To
become a good filmmaker, hire the best people you can possibly afford
and get out of their way. Do your job and let them do theirs."
Follow this path and you'll learn more, you'll learn it faster, and
you'll have a quality film sooner, than you will with the "I want to
own it all." path.

If any of us here seem a bit negative, it's because most of us have
witnessed your scenario hundreds of times, with the same results, and
we just shake our heads when we see someone who just doesn't get it
that good films are made my talented people with experience and
ability -- and not by a pile of shiny new gear.

Good luck.

JB, C.A.S.

Steve House

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Jan 9, 2008, 5:50:44 PM1/9/08
to
I don't think most folks here were insulted, but remember that these guys
have got collectively more decades in the trenches than your and my ages
added together (and I'll wager mine is several times yours). They know what
works to make a successful film and what doesn't because they've been there,
done that, and got the battle scars to prove it. You are getting
outstanding advice on how to be a successful producer and actually get your
film made and more importantly SEEN if you'll read between the lines and
understand where they're coming from (and for the record, I make no pretext
of being one of the expert 'in-group' - I'm here to pay attention and learn
from people I know, know).

Steve House

<never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0dc3bc13-89b1-4297...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Soundhaspriority

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Jan 9, 2008, 6:01:34 PM1/9/08
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"¤R¼..-¦°?.*¦*b?rt°." <~¤..-¦-.¦-y¤?-.~¤¤¦*@le.?s.com> wrote in message
news:a0dao3102850i1ejc...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:30:13 -0500, "Soundhaspriority"
> <now...@nowhere.com> schreef:

>
>>But it's not for the pros. They deserve to be paid for their slipped
>>disks,
>>torn ligaments, and flat feet. To them, your offer has the perspective of
>>a
>>familiar horror show, and justifiably so.
>
> I really wonder, are *you* actually working in the sound recording
> business , as in hired by, and paid by client's ?
>
No, but I sympathize with what you do, and I use the same equipment on my
own projects.

Regards,
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511


never2la...@yahoo.com

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Jan 9, 2008, 6:39:07 PM1/9/08
to
Mr. Harrington. . .

I truly do not know what you are speaking of, but I must take
exception to your statement that I was ever somehow looking for "free
editing services" regarding FCP or, for that matter, anything else. I
have always paid my consultants (and there have been many of them) an
absolute minimum of $50 per hour.

I have never looked for anyone to offer anything to me for "free" and
have no intention of doing so in the future.

As a college professor (if you really want to do a search on me, look
up "Stephen Pruitt" AND "professor" AND "finance" on google, and
you'll find quite a bit on me), I understand that the worker is worthy
of his wages. I've never looked for anyone to give me a free ride.
Indeed, I am meeting an expert FCP editor tomorrow afternoon.

Thank you.

Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.

gabi cunha

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Jan 9, 2008, 10:26:33 PM1/9/08
to
Mr. Pruitt,

I think you should read this:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=111888913&blogID=187450977

I believe that as a professor of business economics and finance you
just want to spend your money wisely. What the RAMPS guys are trying
to tell you is that maybe you didn't choose the right path.

Good luck on your project,

Gabi Cunha
Brazil

Philip Perkins

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Jan 9, 2008, 10:57:13 PM1/9/08
to

It was me that recommended that you post this here. I'm sorry you've
gotten some rough treatment from the professionals here, but I'm sure
you realize that many people like those you may be looking for read
this forum too, and will see your posts. This forum is the main place
where movie production audio people of all levels of experience meet,
and as such a good spot to look for help with your project, even if it
isn't of interest (as a job) to many of the regular posters.

Philip Perkins

Douglas Tourtelot

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Jan 9, 2008, 11:53:55 PM1/9/08
to
Sorry dude, you should quit while you are ahead. $50/hr. for a video editor
and $12/hr. for your soundman (and how about the equally, and maybe even
more important, boom operator)?

D.

<never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Charles Tomaras

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Jan 10, 2008, 1:51:19 AM1/10/08
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<never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:572a169d-f683-4c04...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

I think in essence what JB is saying is that SOUND is probably the most
important aspect to your film.

Better to shoot it on ONE RED camera in a traditional master and coverage
scenario because you will get far better sound and far better lighting
control while saving the money spent on the additional cameras which could
be put towards production sound or post sound. If you think an inexperienced
gaffer is going to have a hard time lighting for one camera, wait until you
see the compromises you'll have to make to light for three! It won't look as
good and with three cameras rolling at different sizes with the tiny sound
package you are providing if won't sound very good either. You are just
putting your priorities in the wrong place if you expect to realize enough
success to make a second film.

Also if we are to follow your altruistic logic, I'm wondering why you
aren't looking for a crew with the same level of film making experience as
you have?


Soundhaspriority

unread,
Jan 10, 2008, 3:36:37 AM1/10/08
to
On Jan 10, 6:54 am, ¤R 1/4..-|°EURO**|*b EURO rt°* <~¤..-|-*|-y¤EURO-*~¤¤|*@le*

EURO s.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:30:13 -0500, "Soundhaspriority"
> <nowh...@nowhere.com> schreef:

>
> >But it's not for the pros. They deserve to be paid for their slipped disks,
> >torn ligaments, and flat feet. To them, your offer has the perspective of a
> >familiar horror show, and justifiably so.
>
> I really wonder, are *you* actually working in the sound recording
> business , as in hired by, and paid by client's ?

Working? Ha! Never! You can read about my history below.

Bob Morein
(215) 646-4894

OFFICIAL RAM BLUEBOOK VALUATION" is actually Robert Morein, a pest on
rec.audio.marketplace, where he accuses innocent sellers of various
misdeeds. He appears to be a pathological liar, with unknown
motivations.

Morein is the owner of websites http://www.worldjazz.com, which have
used fraudulent advertising in attempts to attract investors. Thanks
to mental health professionals in Philadelphia, he has been
unsuccessful although police continue to monitor his activities
closely.

Morein is a Lebanese expatriate, originally from the Beirut area,
who's father moved to Philadelphia where he went to college for 12
years without any degree ever being conferred. He then tried suing
Drexel University for fraud, but the court rejected Morein's
arguments. As everyone with a lick of sense does.

Morien is currently living in his daddy's house in Dresher
Pennsylvania,
where he manages to stalk a wide variety of people while swilling beer
and
ogling the neighbors. He has no job. He never has. He never will.
His daddy's house is located at
1570 Arran Way
Drescher, PA

Morien lives at 1570 Arran Way, Dresher Pennsylvania,
a bit west of metropolitan Philadelphia.

Robert Morein can be contacted at rmo...@verizon.net or
morein...@verizon.net

ROBERT MOREIN HISTORY
AS WRITTEN BY THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER
****************************************

> --
> http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/4853918.htm
>
>> Doctoral student takes intellectual property case to Supreme Court
>> By L. STUART DITZEN
>> Philadelphia Inquirer
>>
>> PHILADELPHIA -Even the professors who dismissed him from a doctoral program
>> at Drexel University agreed that Robert Morein was uncommonly smart.
>>
>> They apparently didn't realize that he was uncommonly stubborn too - so much
>> so that he would mount a court fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court
>> to challenge his dismissal.
>
> The Supremes have already rejected this appeal, btw.
>>
>> "It's a personality trait I have - I'm a tenacious guy," said Morein, a
>> pleasantly eccentric man regarded by friends as an inventive genius. "And we
>> do come to a larger issue here."
>
> An "inventive genius" that has never invented anything. And hardly
> "pleasantly" eccentric.
>
>> A five-year legal battle between this unusual ex-student and one of
>> Philadelphia's premier educational institutions has gone largely unnoticed
>> by the media and the public.
>
> Because no one gives a shit about a 50 year old loser.
>>
>> But it has been the subject of much attention in academia.
>>
>> Drexel says it dismissed Morein in 1995 because he failed, after eight
>> years, to complete a thesis required for a doctorate in electrical and
>> computer engineering.
>
> Not to mention the 12 years it took him to get thru high school!
> BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>>
>> Morein, 50, of Dresher, Pa., contends that he was dismissed only after his
>> thesis adviser "appropriated" an innovative idea Morein had developed in a
>> rarefied area of thought called "estimation theory" and arranged to have it
>> patented.
>
> A contention rejected by three courts. From a 50 YEAR OLD that has
> done NOTHING PRODUCTIVE with his life.
>
>>
>> In February 2000, Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge Esther R. Sylvester
>> ruled that Morein's adviser indeed had taken his idea.
>
> An idea that was worth nothing, because it didn't work. Just like
> Robert Morein, who has never worked a day in his life.
>
>>
>> Sylvester held that Morein had been unjustly dismissed and she ordered
>> Drexel to reinstate him or refund his tuition.
>
> Funnily enough, Drexel AGREED to reinstate Morein, who rejected the
> offer because he knew he was and IS a failed loser. Spending daddy's
> money to cover up his lack of productivity.
>>
>> That brought roars of protest from the lions of academia. There is a long
>> tradition in America of noninterference by the courts in academic decisions.
>>
>> Backed by every major university in Pennsylvania and organizations
>> representing thousands of others around the country, Drexel appealed to the
>> state Superior Court.
>>
>> The appellate court, by a 2-1 vote, reversed Sylvester in June 2001 and
>> restored the status quo. Morein was, once again, out at Drexel. And the
>> time-honored axiom that courts ought to keep their noses out of academic
>> affairs was reasserted.
>>
>> The state Supreme Court declined to review the case and, in an ordinary
>> litigation, that would have been the end of it.
>>
>> But Morein, in a quixotic gesture that goes steeply against the odds, has
>> asked the highest court in the land to give him a hearing.
>
> Daddy throws more money down the crapper.
>
>> His attorney, Faye Riva Cohen, said the Supreme Court appeal is important
>> even if it fails because it raises the issue of whether a university has a
>> right to lay claim to a student's ideas - or intellectual property - without
>> compensation.
>>
>> "Any time you are in a Ph.D. program, you are a serf, you are a slave," said
>> Cohen. Morein "is concerned not only for himself. He feels that what
>> happened to him is pretty common."
>
> It's called HIGHER EDUCATION, honey. The students aren't in charge,
> the UNIVERSITY and PROFESSORS are.
>
>
>> Drexel's attorney, Neil J. Hamburg, called Morein's appeal - and his claim
>> that his idea was stolen - "preposterous."
>>
>> "I will eat my shoe if the Supreme Court hears this case," declared Hamburg.
>> "We're not even going to file a response. He is a brilliant guy, but his
>> intelligence should be used for the advancement of society rather than
>> pursuing self-destructive litigation."
>
> No shit sherlock.
>
>> The litigation began in 1997, when Morein sued Drexel claiming that a
>> committee of professors had dumped him after he accused his faculty adviser,
>> Paul Kalata, of appropriating his idea.
>>
>> His concept was considered to have potential value for businesses in
>> minutely measuring the internal functions of machines, industrial processes
>> and electronic systems.
>>
>> The field of "estimation theory" is one in which scientists attempt to
>> calculate what they cannot plainly observe, such as the inside workings of a
>> nuclear plant or a computer.
>
> My estimation theory? There is NO brain at work inside the head of
> Robert Morein, only sawdust.
>
>>
>> Prior to Morein's dismissal, Drexel looked into his complaint against Kalata
>> and concluded that the associate professor had done nothing wrong. Kalata,
>> through a university lawyer, declined to comment.
>>
>> At a nonjury trial before Sylvester in 1999, Morein testified that Kalata in
>> 1990 had posed a technical problem for him to study for his thesis. It
>> related to estimation theory.
>>
>> Kalata, who did not appear at the trial, said in a 1998 deposition that a
>> Cherry Hill company for which he was a paid consultant, K-Tron
>> International, had asked him to develop an alternate estimation method for
>> it. The company manufactures bulk material feeders and conveyors used in
>> industrial processes.
>>
>> Morein testified that, after much study, he experienced "a flash of
>> inspiration" and came up with a novel mathematical concept to address the
>> problem Kalata had presented.
>>
>> Without his knowledge, Morein said, Kalata shared the idea with K-Tron.
>>
>> K-Tron then applied for a patent, listing Kalata and Morein as co-inventors.
>>
>> Morein said he agreed "under duress" to the arrangement, but felt "locked
>> into a highly disadvantageous situation." As a result, he testified, he
>> became alienated from Kalata.
>>
>> As events unfolded, Kalata signed over his interest in the patent to K-Tron.
>> The company never capitalized on the technology and eventually allowed the
>> patent to lapse. No one made any money from it.
>
> Because it was bogus. Even Kalata was mortified that he was a victim
> of this SCAMSTER, Robert Morein.
>
>> In 1991, Morein went to the head of Drexel's electrical engineering
>> department, accused Kalata of appropriating his intellectual property, and
>> asked for a new faculty adviser.
>
> The staff at Drexel laughed wildly at the ignorance of Robert Morein.
>
>> He didn't get one. Instead, a committee of four professors, including
>> Kalata, was formed to oversee Morein's thesis work.
>>
>> Four years later, the committee dismissed him, saying he had failed to
>> complete his thesis.
>
> So Morein fucks up his first couple years, gets new faculty advisers
> (a TEAM), and then fucks up again! Brilliant!
>
>>
>> Morein claimed that the committee intentionally had undermined him.
>
> Morein makes LOTS of claims that are nonsense. One look thru the
> usenet proves it.
>
>>
>> Judge Sylvester agreed. In her ruling, Sylvester wrote: "It is this court's
>> opinion that the defendants were motivated by bad faith and ill will."
>
> So much for political machine judges.
>>
>> The U.S. Supreme Court receives 7,000 appeals a year and agrees to hear only
>> about 100 of them.
>>
>> Hamburg, Drexel's attorney, is betting the high court will reject Morein's
>> appeal out of hand because its focal point - concerning a student's right to
>> intellectual property - was not central to the litigation in the
>> Pennsylvania courts.
>
>> Morein said he understands it's a long shot, but he feels he must pursue it.
>
> Failure. Look it up in Websters. You'll see a picture of Robert
> Morein. The poster boy for SCAMMING LOSERS.
>
>>
>> "I had to seek closure," he said.
>>
>> Without a doctorate, he said, he has been unable to pursue a career he had
>> hoped would lead him into research on artificial intelligence.
>
> Who better to tell us about "artificial intelligence".
> BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>>
>> As it is, Morein lives at home with his father and makes a modest income
>> from stock investments. He has written a film script that he is trying to
>> make into a movie. And in the basement of his father's home he is working on
>> an invention, an industrial pump so powerful it could cut steel with a
>> bulletlike stream of water.
>
>
> FAILED STUDENT
> FAILED MOVIE MAKER
> FAILED SCREENWRITER
> FAILED INVESTOR
> FAILED DRIVER
> FAILED SON
> FAILED PARENTS
> FAILED INVENTOR
> FAILED PLAINTIFF
> FAILED HOMOSEXUAL
> FAILED HUMAN
> FAILED
> FAILED
>
>> But none of it is what he had imagined for himself.
>>
>> "I don't really have a replacement career," Morein said. "It's a very
>> gnawing thing."


qdbsound

unread,
Jan 10, 2008, 3:48:22 AM1/10/08
to
Is any one selling an operating table and a few scalpels Im thinking
of doing a bit of open heart surgery I have asked my window cleaner to
do the operation .

> NEVER2LATEStud...@yahoo.com

ra...@telus.net

unread,
Jan 10, 2008, 11:19:00 AM1/10/08
to
Well as long as he slept at a Holiday In last night.


"qdbsound" <qdbs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea032c3d-3a93-4e4f...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Ginzo

unread,
Jan 10, 2008, 11:40:48 AM1/10/08
to
On Jan 9, 4:31 pm, never2latestud...@yahoo.com wrote:

Hey man,

You are totally not paying attention to these posts at all. They are
giving you great advice and you refuse to listen to any of them.
That's where your christian beliefs need to shine. Don't be narrow
minded. The film industry is all about collaberation. You do need to
realize with all this experience being presented to you, maybe there
right. It's not to say that you should not have posted that, it's to
say if you are, then maybe you could benefit from some of the things
they are talking about. You already told us you have some cash to by a
744T. That means your have about $4000 extra bucks. It's true that
most sound guys invest in way better equipment then you have so they'd
rather use their equipment because they'll have the ability to give
you a better product. Your not being very honest and your not paying
attention to 100's of years of experience trying to help you.

Don't use something as guilty as christianity to get lowball labor. I
know you not intentionally trying hurt people. But you are trying to
see how little you have to pay to get something done so you can
accomplish something later. The peole that work as production sound
professionals can't make a decent living if everyone low balls.
They've invested way to much.

You have to understand, we in this industry gain nothing if your film
as a sucess, other than a paycheck. There is no guarantee if we take a
really low offer that your going to definitely use us again. Remember
guy we have families to feed, mortgages to pay and bills to take care
of. So, please don't be insulted but you should have thought this
through, before you posted that. You said yourself you knew it was a
really low offer. You had to expect that kind of reaction.

Martin Griffith

unread,
Jan 10, 2008, 12:07:05 PM1/10/08
to
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:48:22 -0800 (PST), in
rec.arts.movies.production.sound qdbsound <qdbs...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Is any one selling an operating table and a few scalpels Im thinking
>of doing a bit of open heart surgery I have asked my window cleaner to
>do the operation .
>
>

and This
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/489856720.html

martin

Martin Harrington

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 2:39:15 AM1/11/08
to
On 10/1/08 10:39 AM, in article
2c295fb6-ad73-43eb...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com,
"never2la...@yahoo.com" <never2la...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm impressed...Professor of "what"?

Martin Harrington

Richard Crowley

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 9:55:26 AM1/11/08
to
"Martin Harrington" wrote ...

> "never2la...@yahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> Mr. Harrington. . .
>>
>> I truly do not know what you are speaking of, but I must take
>> exception to your statement that I was ever somehow looking for "free
>> editing services" regarding FCP or, for that matter, anything else.
>> I
>> have always paid my consultants (and there have been many of them) an
>> absolute minimum of $50 per hour.
>>
>> I have never looked for anyone to offer anything to me for "free" and
>> have no intention of doing so in the future.
>>
>> As a college professor (if you really want to do a search on me, look
>> up "Stephen Pruitt" AND "professor" AND "finance" on google, and
>> you'll find quite a bit on me), I understand that the worker is
>> worthy
>> of his wages. I've never looked for anyone to give me a free ride.
>> Indeed, I am meeting an expert FCP editor tomorrow afternoon.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.
>
> I'm impressed...Professor of "what"?

As was suggested (did you miss it?) the very first Google
hit takes you to his c.v. & bio (which looks pretty impressive,
care to publish yours?)

j...@mw.net

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 12:11:43 PM1/11/08
to

For me, the problem with this individual's post was not that he wanted
to find an experienced sound mixer to work on his film for starvation
wages. I've worked on several of those projects. I've helped friends
out. I've pitched in for nothing for some worthy projects. Many
others here have done the same. A filmmaker states his/her case, and
makes an offer, and all comers are free to accept or reject that offer
or to seek to renegotiate. No problem.

The issue for me is that he makes it clear he has a decent budget (for
a low budget film) but that the money is going to be spent mostly on
his shiny new toys. It's obvious that those are more important to him
than our skills. It's his de-valuing of what any of us would bring to
the table that I have an issue with. As one's thinking goes, so goes
one's heart: equipment is important to him -- our experience, not so
much. Based on my past experience, that also gives me a clear
indication of what a hassle I expect it would be to work on the
project and what I expect the film's final quality to be.

He's approaching this from the perspective of a professor of finance
-- not the perspective of a professional filmmaker. At the end of the
day he wants something to show for his money in the form of tangible
assets -- his shiny new toys.

Several of us have offered what we think was the advice he most needed
to hear. Whether he wishes to listen is entirely up to him.

JB, C.A.S.

Jay Rose

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 1:55:37 PM1/11/08
to
On 2008-01-11 12:11:43 -0500, j...@mw.net said:

> He's approaching this from the perspective of a professor of finance
> -- not the perspective of a professional filmmaker. At the end of the
> day he wants something to show for his money in the form of tangible
> assets -- his shiny new toys.

Gee, we've built a multi-billion dollar industry on the premise that
the _films_ themselves are assets. A lot of fortunes are won and lost
on those tangible pieces of celluloid.

And while a professor of finance might say the celluloid has little
tangible value - all the value is in its copyright - I could mention
that there's an even bigger industry that relies on nothing _but_
copyrights. Bill Gates didn't make his fortune on magnetic disks...

Danny Meltzer

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 5:25:18 PM1/11/08
to
Give the guy a break. You gotta just let things like this go, ignore
it.

He's free to offer a lowball amount and get a crappy soundman, it's a
free country. If you're not a crappy soundman, just ignore it.

It's true that this might be a bad place for the post, but it's not
the end of the world.

If I were a film student or someone who just graduated with no
equipment I might be happy to take this gig.

Danny

Martin Harrington

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 5:30:36 PM1/11/08
to
On 12/1/08 4:11 AM, in article
2cd79142-30e5-4e35...@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,
"j...@mw.net" <j...@mw.net> wrote:

My point exactly.
A search though Google shows lots of newsgroup type sites with him asking
for help with the equipment that he apparently owns, but not willing to pay
a "realistic" fee for anyone to work it for him.
He does offer money...but...it's almost an insulting amount in many cases.

Martin Harrington
A.S.S.G.

Douglas Tourtelot

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 5:50:02 PM1/11/08
to
You are right I guess except he still wants to talk about it. Maybe if he
posted on rec.audio.iwannamakemoviesonyourfreelabor.nowaren'ticool, he might
have better luck with some less-sarcastic replies. "I'm just sayin'"

D.

"Danny Meltzer" <dannym...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ed017df3-1f94-4b48...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Douglas Tourtelot

unread,
Jan 11, 2008, 5:52:35 PM1/11/08
to
BTW, I am probably just a little stressed because of the fact that the
cry-babies in Hollywood are, right now, keeping me from being able to
provide a living wage for my family.

"I'm just sayin'"

D.

"Douglas Tourtelot" <tour...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:r7udnZalXMkGbxra...@speakeasy.net...

Marc Wielage

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 4:12:17 AM1/12/08
to
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:11:43 -0800, j...@mw.net wrote
(in article
<2cd79142-30e5-4e35...@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>):

> The issue for me is that he makes it clear he has a decent budget (for
> a low budget film) but that the money is going to be spent mostly on
> his shiny new toys.

>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

I must be a jaded, cynical Hollywood whore. I think I'd rather work on a
sleazy R-rated film made by devil-worshippers where I made at least $1000 a
day (and preferably more) for my services, a boom op, and rental on some
decent gear. (Come to think of it, I actually did work on a sleazy R-rated
devil-worshipping film early in my career, but that was a long time ago, and
the people who made it were very moral, upstanding folks. Bad film, nice
people -- SATAN'S CHILDREN, look it up.)

I wonder if Mr. Pruitt knows just how much data storage he has to buy in
order to shoot with three Red cameras. I think you're looking at a minimum of
$100,000 in CF cards (or hard drives), just to store about 20 hours of raw 2K
material. And I assume they'll need a lot more than that in six weeks -- plus
more for backups and the FCP system. As I often say about digital filmmaking:
film is straightforward; digital is very hard and expensive right now, unless
you're shooting HDCam.

People like this need to understand that production sound needs to be a FIXED
PERCENTAGE of the budget for films like this, not infinitely-variable
according to their vague estimates. If you have a $100,000 budget, I can't
see why a solid 10% couldn't be devoted to sound. Note also that having good
production sound will save you money in the final mix, assuming your mixer
can help you avoid the need for more ADR.

Read Deke Simon's excellent book FILM & VIDEO BUDGETS, and you'll get a
better idea on what percentage of your total budget you need to allot for
sound. $5000 -- which is less than $200 a day for a six week shoot -- is
completely out of line. You can't even rent a decent timecode recorder, a
couple of wireless mikes, a boom mike, and a timecode slate for $200 a day.
And you need much more gear than this for a complex film like a 3-camera
shoot.

BTW: I readily admit that $100,000,000 blockbusters don't have a $10 million
budget for production sound, so there is a point at which the percentage
starts sliding down. On the other hand, if you add in sound editing, music
recording & mixing, sound design, and the final mix, the sound budget could
easily exceed $10 million for a megabudget project.

Mr. Pruitt needs to hire a good UPM and a good post-production supervisor to
explain what these line items really cost, and how much he has to allocate in
his budget for them. Both people can save him a great deal of time and money
in the long run.

--MFW

oleg kaizerman

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 7:07:38 AM1/12/08
to
doesnt it mean you need to give your second cheek martin ?:-)


"Martin Harrington" <len...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:C3AE394D.31E1%len...@bigpond.net.au...

ncb...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 12:35:50 PM1/12/08
to
On Jan 9, 9:05 am, never2latestud...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi all. . .
>
> To some, this will seem like a ridiculous post. . . others, however,
> may be genuinely interested.
>
> Are you, or can you recommend a great, truly expert sound recording
> specialist that might be willing to work for 6 weeks this coming
> summer for no more than $5000? I know the pay is ridiculously low, but
> I'll be breaking my budget at that. Since this is a family friendly
> film, I'm looking for people are sympathetic to such a venture or, at
> the very least, won't be bringing a lot of baggage that might be
> controversial on the set.  This is a 100% drug- and profanity-free
> production. Most of the individuals involved in the project are
> professing Christians.
>
> So, basically, I'm looking for the moon: A truly superb audio
> specialist who is willing to work on a feature for peanuts, who won't
> cause any problems.
>
> Stephen Pruitt, Ph.D.
> NEVER2LATEStud...@yahoo.com

Presumably your offer includes tithing any profits with everyone who
works below scale. Odd that you've touted your religion so loudly,
but seem to have left out any desire to look after anyone but
yourself.

Assuming you'll be filming 12 hours a day, six days a week for six
weeks (a total of 432 hours), you expect "a superb audio specialist"
to work for about $9.50 an hour plus OT. I think you're more likely
to get a second rate PA for that amount. Surely you don't expect an
adult to feed a family on those wages?

Sorry, Dr. Pruitt, another word for your "vision" is exploitation.
And this is the most un-Christian post I've seen in quite a while.

Norman C. Berns

AdmNa...@adelphia.net

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 12:53:55 PM1/12/08
to
>As one's thinking goes, so goes
> one's heart: equipment is important to him -- our experience, not so
> much.

I once interviewed with a small-time producer who owned his own camera
and sound packages.
He was literally looking for a trained monkey who could hold a mic
close enough to get caught on camera a few times and press record.

I offered him a bit more than that, and ultimately didn't get the
job.
Thing is, he's probably still out producing his little no-budget
wonders...but who sees stuff like that?

garyj...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 1:53:56 PM1/12/08
to
Speaking of monkeys, let's stop spanking this one and move on to
something else. 38 responses to a clueless poster? The writers' strike
must be slowing things down more than I thought.

oleg kaizerman

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 2:25:14 PM1/12/08
to
thas probably why he looks for expirience as the non expirience work as
usial :-)

<garyj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bb5d21a5-ca00-4eeb...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Richard Crowley

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 3:21:39 PM1/12/08
to
<garyj...@yahoo.com> wrote ...

Speaking of monkeys, let's stop spanking this one and move on to
something else. 38 responses to a clueless poster? The writers' strike
must be slowing things down more than I thought.

The OP has left the building, gentlemen.

Douglas Tourtelot

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 4:01:54 PM1/12/08
to
Yes, the WGA strike is REALLY slowing things down for a lot of people.

D.

<garyj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bb5d21a5-ca00-4eeb...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Martin Harrington

unread,
Jan 12, 2008, 6:12:55 PM1/12/08
to
On 12/1/08 11:07 PM, in article fmaai3$1o9$1...@aioe.org, "oleg kaizerman"
<kaiz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Probably ;p)

Martin Harrington
len...@bigpond.net.au


Bill

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 1:33:58 PM1/16/08
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Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
> BTW, I am probably just a little stressed because of the fact that the
> cry-babies in Hollywood are, right now, keeping me from being able to
> provide a living wage for my family.
>
Those cry-babies who are also responsible for relatively generous wages
and benefits you normally receive, or the cry-babies who would prefer to
pay you minimum wage?

oleg kaizerman

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Jan 16, 2008, 3:04:17 PM1/16/08
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he still didn't get that he is noone in film business - only the paper what
really matter and the movie star ass
dont take it hard D , :-)

"Bill" <tr...@chromehorse.net> wrote in message
news:7o6dnYT3Ro-Q0xPa...@golden.net...

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