Zaxcom Fusion vs. Deva V (No Flame Wars, Please!)
Brent Lestage
(which includes the optional DVD-RAM built-in & 80GB HD + an extra
outboard DVD-RAM drive). In the past, I have worked mainly docs and
commercials, but find myself venturing more into features with an
occasional doc project.
I like the Fusion's power economy and smaller profile with no internal
HD, but am wary of the limited storage capacity of CF cards at the
moment. I am also not sure what kind of 8-track performance this
machine will offer using CF (any speed issues?).
Obviously, for some cart-based feature work, I will need to add an
external DVD-RAM drive for dailies, as well as a FW HD for back-ups. I
have also been told by Zaxcom that the SD DVD-RAM drive would work if
housed in a LaCie enclosure (?) which I already own. Also, I would
like to add the new Mix-8 (to either of the above) when it becomes
available for a compact cart system, or as a stand-alone unit in a bag
for limited doc work.
So, I am looking for professional opinions as to whether the Fusion
would be a viable choice for the type of work I plan to do (even
though it is being marketed more for ENG/Reality), or would I be
better served with a used (but in decent shape) Deva V?
All on-topic opinions welcome.
Thanks & Best,
--
Brent
oleg kaizerman
8 faders always better then 4 .
used 5 doesn't have cf slot what maybe become your telecine media
"Brent Lestage" <m...@brentlestagesound.com> wrote in message
news:be89fa44-7738-41da...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Jeff Wexler
<be89fa44-7738-41da...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Brent Lestage <m...@brentlestagesound.com> wrote:
> I like the Fusion's power economy and smaller profile with no internal
> HD, but am wary of the limited storage capacity of CF cards at the
> moment.
The capacity of present CF cards is more than sufficient for a day's
work (probably more but I don't have the numbers in front of me) so you
shouldn't be comparing CF capacity to internal hard drive that Fusion is
lacking.
>I am also not sure what kind of 8-track performance this
> machine will offer using CF (any speed issues?).
There are no performance/recording issues with the Fusion implementation
of CF solid state storage.
>
> Obviously, for some cart-based feature work, I will need to add an
> external DVD-RAM drive for dailies, as well as a FW HD for back-ups.
If you use the Fusion for feature type work you are right that you will
need an outboard DVD-RAM drive (since DVD-RAM seems to be the most
requested (demanded) deliverable on a daily basis. You will not
necessarily need an outboard Firewire drive for "backup" as you state.
Most probably you will be able to have a simple CF reader and transfer
material off the CF card to the drive or drives in your computer. It
would be pointless to use the Deva to preside over this additional
storage/copy that you feel you will need.
> So, I am looking for professional opinions as to whether the Fusion
> would be a viable choice for the type of work I plan to do (even
> though it is being marketed more for ENG/Reality), or would I be
> better served with a used (but in decent shape) Deva V?
You will do fine with either choice. The Fusion is more flexible than
the Deva V so that it can be possibly more useful in the ENG/bag
situations you may find yourself in, and can also be configured with the
additional drive to provide all the functionality of the Deva V. If the
used Deva V is really a lot less money, you could go that route also.
Remember, prior to the Fusion that older models, Deva IV and V, were
used extensively for ENG/bag type work.
Regards, Jeff Wexler
Marc Wielage
(in article
<be89fa44-7738-41da...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>):
> So, I am looking for professional opinions as to whether the Fusion
> would be a viable choice for the type of work I plan to do (even
> though it is being marketed more for ENG/Reality), or would I be
> better served with a used (but in decent shape) Deva V?
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<
I had to make that same decision over the summer. I finally decided that not
having the self-contained DVD-RAM was a deal killer, so I went for the Deva
5.8 instead of the Fusion.
It was a tough decision, given that they're about $3000 apart (fully
equipped), but it made sense for the type of work I want to do with it --
features, TV, and commercials. I have mulled over installing an SSD in the
5.8 just to cut down on weight and heat for bag use, but I haven't gone to
that yet.
I also evaluated Cantar, the SD 788T, Fostex, and looked at prototypes for
the new Nagra and Sonosax. None of them were right for me as far as user
interface, reliability, support, and features, so it was largely a process of
elimination.
I think the best advice for you is to rent one for a weekend and see if it
does what you want. There's always unforseen "gotchas" that are hidden in the
background, things that aren't always apparent when you look at brochures or
see a quick demo at a trade show. For an investment this hefty, it makes
sense to actually test drive it yourself before making the commitment.
--MFW
Brent Lestage
very informative.
I guess there is no reason not to welcome the CF approach. Initially,
I was reluctant to embrace this removable media design -- only because
it seemed flimsy and capacities were low. Now, both concerns seem
unfounded, as professional photographers use these cards daily in and
out of their D-SLR's with few contact point failures reported, and the
capacities of these cards keep increasing.
The only (slight) downside I can see, as Mark pointed out, is not
having an immediate "burn" of the media available when in a bag
situation, but there's a tradeoff having it built-in too (i.e. --
size, heat, power consumption). I like the 5.8 very much, but I'm
simply trying to economize.
Jeff, I hear you on not needing an external FW drive. It absolutely
makes sense feeding the CF media onto a laptop via a card reader in
order to free up space or for archiving a job. And, definitely
understand the [current] needs of post regarding deliverables on DVD-
RAM still. Lastly, thanks for validating the Fusion as a fully
"feature-capable" machine.
So, apart from any "hidden" differences I'm missing, I guess the
Fusion would suit my needs just fine and allow me the flexibility on
and off-cart that I am looking for. Now if Glenn S. would just hurry
up with that Mix-8, I'd put my Fusion order in tomorrow! :-)
Best,
--
Brent
Oleg Kaizerman
> Thank you, Gentlemen... Your responses are straight to the point and
> very informative.
>
> I guess there is no reason not to welcome the CF approach. Initially,
> I was reluctant to embrace this removable media design -- only because
> it seemed flimsy and capacities were low. Now, both concerns seem
> unfounded, as professional photographers use these cards daily in and
> out of their D-SLR's with few contact point failures reported, and the
> capacities of these cards keep increasing.
>
> The only (slight) downside I can see, as Mark pointed out, is not
> having an immediate "burn" of the media available when in a bag
> situation, but there's a tradeoff having it built-in too (i.e. --
> size, heat, power consumption). I like the 5.8 very much, but I'm
> simply trying to economize.
you will surprice how much less it would be needed in near future , at least
in my market i dont burn anything for ages
there are 48 gb cards on the market which make you life much eacier not to
change your primery or secondary media ( 48gb are about 95 track hours )
>
> Jeff, I hear you on not needing an external FW drive. It absolutely
> makes sense feeding the CF media onto a laptop via a card reader in
> order to free up space or for archiving a job. And, definitely
> understand the [current] needs of post regarding deliverables on DVD-
> RAM still. Lastly, thanks for validating the Fusion as a fully
> "feature-capable" machine
>
> So, apart from any "hidden" differences I'm missing, I guess the
> Fusion would suit my needs just fine and allow me the flexibility on
> and off-cart that I am looking for. Now if Glenn S. would just hurry
> up with that Mix-8, I'd put my Fusion order in tomorrow! :-)
why does it matter , as 5/8 need the same
>
> Best,
> --
> Brent
Oleg Kaizerman
funny post scott , iam in panic already .
, as i use the 744 for the last 3++yaers with cf routing only .
shit , never lost a file , while in the same time 2 of my harddrives went
caput and few dvds not suvived my kline shpitz tiefs ( that a brid of one of
my dogs , he is in the size of his dick with very big appetite for
everything that stay over the coffee table :-)
the cf media is one the most relible media i used and it proved it self
for its reability inside my washing mashne , falling from 2 meters hight and
handreds of inserts to card reader ( these didnt survive :-))
by the way scott , fusion writes to 2 cf cards at ones ( if you engange the
miroring mode) so even the primery go you still have the secend one .
and if i dont mistake you can use adaptor for sd cards as well inside cf
port .
tell me why dont you ask why is that sound devices make 702t which have only
cf port ?( not to mention , tascam ,fostex and marantz who make their
recorders with cf ) .and i dont remeber you did mention this on sd forum
,is it becouse you dont use fusion or any other deva , just curios ?:-)
8gb not relible for transfers ?
i use 16 , 32 and 48 gb cards without any problem , how can it be- ?:-)
and scott, in 2 years from now these cards would be so cheap that you wont
need to write them more then ones , at least for small jobs as comertials
where i implement it already i chgarge the producer for 2 gb card and never
ask it back
"Scott" <sc...@farroutpro.com> wrote in message
news:e65beeac-d846-4e1f...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Of all the removable media available CF is the most volatile, if you
do a google for CF read/write wear you will see that the CF card
doesn't last under constant firing. Most of the high end Pro DSLR's
are leaving the CF media behind in favor of the SDHC format. Also with
any flash based media (SD/SDHC, CF, SSD, etc.) in the event you have a
error of any type or corruption to the media the data is
unrecoverable. This is a trade off you need to weigh out. All that
being said I have only had one bad experience with CF in the past 3
years, although I did loose about 16GB of data from a photo shoot and
lost the client to the "next guy" but SanDisk did replace the card in
question no questions asked and since then I havent had any more
problems.
Most photographers who shoot on CF cards will stay away from cards
over 8GBs since they do not perform as well with large data loads.
Something else you can Google. When using the CF media for audio
recording you are not hitting the media in controlled bursts but you
are constantly sending data through the gate and the design of the CF
puts the front cells under constant load and doesn't allow for proper
load spreading. This is bad for audio recording because of the
constant read/writing activity that audio recordings require. Which is
why photographers rotate cards constantly and prefer to use smaller
size cards.
SSD drives are designed to spread the read/write load evenly and
randomly over all the cells as well as use at least 50% less power
draw. Have a look at wikipedia for CF, SDHC, and SSD and you will find
a wealth of information, also check out the photography blog sites and
search for CF wear out. Most flash memory companies are already
looking past CF media and most experts think that the CF media will be
abandoned in less than 2 years.
Oleg Kaizerman
would be able replace the dvd ram with something that writes to bigger
capacity as blue ray or omething that doesnt have any spinning parts
"Brent Lestage" <m...@brentlestagesound.com> wrote in message
news:01e2591b-0d24-4b63...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
johnpaul215
> On Jul 31, 10:57 pm, Brent Lestage <m...@brentlestagesound.com> wrote:
>
>
>
i don't mean to derail this topic, but don't the Red One CF cards take
a similar type of loads? In theory they are recording about the same
length of time as the sound department, with larger amounts of data. I
realize sound recordists could record for a long time during an
interview or something, but those (expensive) cards that Red sells
would be made for data writing very different than a still camera.
great thread though. it's nice to hear the differences of the two
based on real world experience.
-johnpaul
Gtrew
mind that the Fusion is considerably more compact than the Deva 5.
Also, the 8 knobs on the Fusion (compared to the Deva 5's 5 knobs)
make it more versatile as a stand-alone recorder and mixer.
My observation is that CF cards have been a very reliable media.
Reports of failures or lost data are extremely rare. Regarding the
capacity of the cards, this should not be a problem. In the 60 days of
the feature I recently finished (fairly complex, often using 8 tracks)
I exceeded 4.7G in a day only three times (needing to mirror onto a
second DVD-RAM). I never even came close to needing 9.4G in a day.
Therefore, planning to rotate 16G CF cards (or even 8G cards) would
easily be within reason.
All that being said, for cart work, it is more convenient having a
huge capacity hard drive (which is something in favor of the Deva 5),
simply because you don't have to change media as often (most features
would probably fit on a single 80G drive) and you have instant recall
of recordings made weeks or months before.
I hope that helps,
Glen Trew
Fernando
external DVD-RAM (a Digistor and a LaCie, plus a DirectDrive with an
LG inside) and external HD.
howy
> do a google for CF read/write wear you will see that the CF card
CF controllers should perform wear leveling to spread the erase cycles
across multiple blocks, otherwise frequently written sectors such as
directories or file allocation tables would wear out quickly when used
with the common FAT32 format.
The custom MARF file system that all the Zaxcom products use does not
require constant directory structure accesses, just once when the file
is started and once when the file is closed. This means a device with
no wear leveling algorithm and a 10,000 write cylce rating would be
theoretically be destroyed after a few thousand days assuming the card
is used up and re-formatted each day.
Since wear leveling algorithms are secret and not documented well, it
would be prudent to buy from high quality manufactureres rather than
buying the cheapest cards avaialble. This is true of hard drives as
well.
If the directory area of a MARF formatted card (or hard drive) becomes
destroyed, the audio can be restored with the zaxfile recovery
program.
Is a deva hard disk more reliable than a CF card? Maybe yes, maybe
no. It think a hot evironment with lots of shock and vibration would
cause more stress on a hard drive where a CF card (assuming a poorly
written wear leveling algorithm) might have less of an advantage in a
cart situation where there is no vibration and 16 tracks of audio are
beign recorded 8 hours each day.
Deva's hard drive reliablilty has greatly exceeded my expectations
over the past decade. I am confident CF cards are also very reliable
and are only getting better as they start to replace hard drives in
more applications.
-howy
fatfatjames
jdd
> The custom MARF file system that all the Zaxcom products use does not
> require constant directory structure accesses, just once when the file
> is started and once when the file is closed.
this is only a cache feature, nothing to do with the file system.
This means a device with
> no wear leveling algorithm and a 10,000 write cylce rating would be
> theoretically be destroyed after a few thousand days assuming the card
> is used up and re-formatted each day.
this mean 3 years. where are the CF card you used three years ago? and
what capacity?
jdd
Gtrew
GT
jdd
> Three years? How do you figure?
"a few thousand days", 365 days a year...
>>> theoretically be destroyed after a few thousand days assuming the card
>>> is used up and re-formatted each day.
>> this mean 3 years. where are the CF card you used three years ago? and
>> what capacity?
>>
>> jdd
>
jdd
Gtrew
days), then we're talking a minimum of 8.2 years. That's assuming
someone's working every day of the year for more than 8 years which
will never happen. A more probably year's work for a very successful
free lancer would be 250 days per year, computing to a minimum
estimate life of a CF card used in a Deva Fusion of more than 11
years.
Glen Trew
On Aug 2, 3:00 pm, jdd <j...@dodin.org> wrote:
> Gtrew a écrit :
>
> > Three years? How do you figure?
>
> "a few thousand days", 365 days a year...
> jdd
Paul Graff
> On Aug 1, 5:49 pm, fatfatjames <fatfatja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > can the fusion record to 2 cf card and firewire hd at the same time?
>
> drive. Only the Sound Devices 7 series recorders record to all active
> sources at the same time.
I don't think this is true. I believe the Fostex recorders also
record simultaneously to the DVD and HD. I consider the MARF (Mobile
Audio Recording Format) system that Zaxcom employs to be a major
advantage over their competitors and it is true that because of it the
copy to the secondary drive in FAT 32 format is delayed by a couple of
seconds at the most (in my experience). Most mixers on scripted
projects never use this option and choose to mirror their files later
anyway after ensuring the metadata is up to date.
PG
jdd
> Assuming "a few" to be a small quantity of three or more (3000 or more
> days), then we're talking a minimum of 8.2 years. That's assuming
> someone's working every day of the year for more than 8 years which
> will never happen. A more probably year's work for a very successful
> free lancer would be 250 days per year, computing to a minimum
> estimate life of a CF card used in a Deva Fusion of more than 11
> years.
it's even better. I wanted to say than three years is a very long life
time for a cf card. and as you say it's a pessimistic estimation.
however don't forget a memory card can stop working at once anytime
soon witout any warning, so keep backups.
jdd
johnpaul215
You are right that the Fostex PD-6 and PD-606 can be set to do both at
once.
In a rough+tumble reality or ENG situation, the 606 may not be able to
write to the full sized optical disc. The PD-6 uses the smaller DVD-
RAM discs in caddies and can handle being bounced around, but those
discs are slowly going away. If you're on a cart, then yes, both of
them can write to HDD and DVD-RAM at the same time. The PD-606 is
similar to the Sound Devices machines in that you can write to the HDD
while shooting, and then burn to DVD-R/RW and CD-R/RW discs during
downtime.
-johnpaul
Billy Sarokin
> projects never use this option and choose to mirror their files later
> anyway after ensuring the metadata is up to date.
Not sure that statment is true and definately NOT a good idea!!! Hard
drives do crash. If you wait to mirror there is always the
possibility that you can sacrifice a days work for the convenience of
the 2nd assistant editor. I always record to the HD and DVD
simultaneously. You can correct meta data at any point after the
fact. Reminds me of the fastidious old sound guy. After a huge scene
the director turns to him and asks 'did you get it?' And the guy
answers, 'No... but I wrote it all down'.
Billy Sarokin
Nick
You are mistaken - Fostex's recorders are indeed capable of
simultaneously writing to two different sources. I can't blame you,
though - the blurb you cited is poorly worded. Fostex needs a savvier
marketing department.
d rosen
a question perhaps for simon bishop (if he's reading this thread), or
anyone else using fusion on eng shoots.
(simon) you are a very experienced mixer so i imagine that each
channel set up before the camera rolls is pretty much perfect, however
if you do have to make adjustments to channel settings on the fly is
going into the expansive individual channel menu to adjust the hpf or
the prefade level for the iso track a bit slow or cumbersome?
typically are you using a stylus or finger for this sort operation?
how long does a li-on np1 last on a typical day (1 boom, 4 radios, 5
isos, stereo mix, camera send).
camera sends are o/p channels 5 and 6 (on the hirose), and these are
independent of the recording tracks?
so you can assign i/p 5 and 6 to record tracks 5 and 6 as isos (eg
when using 6 i/ps), then 7 and 8 as stereo/twin mono mix down onto the
cards and not need the d sub connector to get audio to camera?
did you go for the optional effects package?
what do zax mean by
"A software based effects package ensures there are never any
differences channel to
channel due to passive component ageing. A Fusion will sound just as
good today as it
will 10 years after it was purchased."?
ie do they mean that the fusion's i/p circuitry will 'age' differently
channel to channel and therefore you'll be able to dial in some
adjustment to compensate for this after AB testing a mic in the
respective channels?
or are they suggesting that you'll remember how you dear old schoeps
sounded once upon a time (before the rain storm :) and you can dial
in an adjustment as per your memory suggests?
many thanks,
dan.