Compressor/Limiters on location
Glen Trew
controversial subject. Still, I think it would be interesting to know what
the opinions are and why, and what equipment is being used when it is. I
hear from customers who use everything from nothing at all, to the portable
Audio Developments, to the very expensive Manley studio brand.
Personally, I prefer to rely on peak limiters for "surprise attacks" only
when clipping or digital distortion would be the alternative. For dialog I
prefer a very fast recovery time so that they will be less likely to effect
dialog that immediately follows. When using my Cooper, I usually keep the
input limiters on all them time except for gun fire, car door slams, etc.
when I always turn them off.
How 'bout everyone else?
Glen Trew
Mr Hamark
Given we are all pretty well saturated in the "digital age", I feel the most
"pragmatic" solution is to do as you suggest and use a peak limiter on
location. While the purist in me is still a bit uneasy about doing this, I
think it only makes sense.
I am curious though, why do you turn off your limiter when recording "gun fire,
car door slams, etc."? While I certainly see the need to make some drastic
level adjustments, I would think you'd still want to use it, if in fact you are
using a digital recorder; if not, and one is recording anologe, then I don't
know that I would make use of a limiter under any condition, except mayby for
ENG.
Tom
.
Glen Trew
because when the limiter reacts to this noise it also very noticeably ducks
the dialog and ambience as well, ruining the track. Of course, the track may
be ruined even with the limiter off if the sound happens right on top of a
word, but at least you have a chance with the limiter off. Also, gun shots,
door slams, etc. are often best recorded without limiters because the
ambience can stay at a normal level. This is usually best done with an
analog Nagra because tape saturation is much more pleasant than digital
clipping, but either way, the ambience stays at a more desirable level,
leaving a good bed for the inevitable foley work.
There are certainly times to break this rule, but I have found that this
method usually works best for me.
Glen Trew
Mr Hamark <mrha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000101212036...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Jay Rose
<gl...@trewaudio.com> wrote:
|: The reason I turn of the peak limiters for gun fire, car door slams, etc, is
|: because when the limiter reacts to this noise it also very noticeably ducks
|: the dialog and ambience as well, ruining the track. ..
From the postie's point of view, it also mushes up the sound by destroying
its natural envelope. If you know a loud sound's coming, turn down your
level control... I'd rather live with an average level a few dB closer to
-96 than to have all those lovely sounds destroyed.
--
Jay Rose's Digital Playroom
industry journalist / Clio+Emmy winning Sound Designer
Want to learn audio for video? http://www.dplay.com/book
correct return address is jay at DPLAY and then dot com
Glen Trew
level of dialoge, especially down to "-96db". Plus, instantaneous efx levels
are often impossible to predict. Try asking for level check on a blood squib
planted on an actor and receive a well deserved blank stare.
Glen Trew
Jay Rose <noLun...@tiac.net> wrote in message
news:noLunchMeat-02...@csq.tiac.net...
Douglas Tourtelot
NYC alley. Actor comes running out of the warehouse, points the .44 magnum
revolver at the fleeing "perp", shouts "Stop or I'll shoot!" runs 15 more
feet and pulls the trigger. Got the full rehearsal (Nagra 4.2), turned the
limiter off so the reverb of the shot will saturate the tape a tad, and
"roll sound." Actor runs out, yells "Stop, etc." (which went down fine),
sticks the barrel of the gun inches from the zeppelin and pulls the trigger!
It made the nicest "pfffft" you could hope for driving the diaphragm against
the backing plate. Didn't make any sound past the mic. And in fact, the
Schoeps survived quite well and the scene only needed a SFX to make the
scene work, but boy were the boomman and I surprised!
By the way, I use the limiters on my Sonosax (every time the little green
light lites up), and if I haven't been sleeping during rehearsals, I defy
any listener to say when I was or wasn't limiting. Those limiters are worth
the full price of admission and they make those tough scenes (well maybe
not easy) but they sure sound smooth. Low-end pickup on the Sennheisers
drive 'em crazy however, and I dial the limiter up as we roll to keep the
boomman from thinking that the mic is crappin' out <g>.
Regards,
Douglas Tourtelot, C.A.S.
tour...@earthlink.net
Seattle, WA
Glen Trew <gl...@trewaudio.com> wrote in message
news:wTNb4.30$UW2...@news.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Glen Trew
to switch an input limiter in and out during a scene (off during a door slam
and back on for dialoge) but there was often a slight pop if I didn't
exercise the switch just before rolling. The Cameo mixer addresses this
problem nicely by digitally "cross fading" the in/out switch on the input
compressor limiters which makes them completely noise free when putting them
in or taking them out.
Glen Trew
Douglas Tourtelot <tour...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DMVb4.2945$Ec5.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Wolf
ski resort) with various lavs the same short of the diaphram occured on every
shot. Great effect because the "normal" dialog of course had none of that
miserable 'recovery' from RF Tx limiters. All they did in post was add a BANG (
with echo). These small lavs shorting out saved the day. ( and my ears) wolf
Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
--
Wolf Seeberg
new email address:
wol...@mediaone.net
not necessarily what you see in the header
Noah Timan
input limiters on all them time except for gun fire, car door slams, etc.
when I always turn them off."
That's interesting...I've never had much success with the Cooper limiter and
usually leave them off unless it's an emergency. How have other people fared
with it? It's usually just not transparent enough...no matter how much futzing
I do I can't get rid of breathing and pumping. Another friend who was
similarly frustrated with it used an outboard UREI and claimed the results were
much, much better, but I haven't gone this route yet since I fear having to
have AC power at the cart all the time as a necessity...
Glen Trew
fast. This seems to keep the limiter least noticable for dialog. The factory
defaults for the Cooper limiter settings are pretty much at 12:00 (center of
travel of the trim pot). Because the limiters are designed and intended for
use as peak protection as apposed to compressing, I see no reason to adjust
the threshold.
Glen Trew
Noah Timan <noah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000104154507...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Senator Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
(dsan...@dbxpro.com) would be most interested in hearing from us
regarding a possible dbx overeasy compressor product that could be
powered by 12vDC for use by Production Sound Mixers.
*the Roberto's*
>"When using my Cooper, I usually keep the
>input limiters on all them time except for gun fire, car door slams, etc.
>when I always turn them off."
>
>That's interesting...I've never had much success with the Cooper limiter and
>usually leave them off unless it's an emergency. How have other people fared
>with it? It's usually just not transparent enough...no matter how much futzing
>I do I can't get rid of breathing and pumping. Another friend who was
>similarly frustrated with it used an outboard UREI and claimed the results were
>much, much better, but I haven't gone this route yet since I fear having to
>have AC power at the cart all the time as a necessity...
Hello there.
When i was choosing between the Sonosax and the Cooper, the Cooper
won, because the Sonosax is, or was, faster distorted on the trafo,
or input gain.
But...
The limiter of the Cooper is the weak point. Same as you, i never use
them. There useless for dialoque, even on the best positions of the
little adjustment-pots.
Maybe Cooper could have a look at the Sonosax Electronics...
Roberto.
Douglas Tourtelot
have lit up the little red light a lot, and the green ones too, but have
never heard any mic-pre distortion in my almost two years of using it on
long-form narrative work. And, in fact, IMHO, the pres on the Cooper don't
stand up at all to the SX-S's (boy that's a lot of esses!), and crap out
much more quickly. I used one for a short time, had LOTS of preamp OL and
moved to the Sonosax. I guess it truly s "Your Mileage May Vary."
Regards,
*the Roberto's* <Trammelant_i...@mieters.org> wrote in message
news:3873833...@news.xs4all.nl...
*the Roberto's*
<tour...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I have been UNABLE to distort the input stage on my new version SX-S.
Hello there. I wrote especcialy "or Was", cause my testing was 8
years ago....
>have lit up the little red light a lot, and the green ones too, but have
>never heard any mic-pre distortion in my almost two years of using it on
>long-form narrative work. And, in fact, IMHO, the pres on the Cooper don't
>stand up at all to the SX-S's (boy that's a lot of esses!), and crap out
>much more quickly. I used one for a short time, had LOTS of preamp OL and
>moved to the Sonosax. I guess it truly s "Your Mileage May Vary."
Ha, well, "Your Mileage May Vary " is a common thing here at
R.a.m.p.s. so that can't be a surprise.
(and me is Kilometers anyway, as you might noticed in the past ) :-)
But LOTS of Preamp and on the other one UNABLE ? Hmmm...
The Limiter is Imnsho better...i agree.
>
>Regards,
>
Tada.
Rubber*toe
dave
c.a.s." <studi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
While this is a very good idea (even though I personally dont like dbx
compressors too much), I would be very surprised if a company as large as
dbx would bother to make something so specialized for so few people. It
is somewhat notable, however, that there really isnt a high quality
battery powered compressor for us outside of the AD compressor. Any one
ever use that box? Hmm, makes me think that I should stop building guitar
effects and start studying up on opto-electronics for my retirement
plan...
dave raphael
btw, just bought a CS 208, when it arrives in two months, I'll post my
review of the channel compressors. I'm nerbous to say the least.
Douglas Tourtelot
channel compressor powered by 12vdc, two individual paths, linkable, gain,
ratio and threshold. I used one for years and loved it, but sold it when I
bought my Sonosax. They'd be glad to send info. Also info at
http://www.locationsound.com/psreport/newprod.html.
Regards,
--
Douglas Tourtelot, C.A.S.
tour...@earthlink.net
Seattle, WA
dave <tape...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tapedelay-060...@dialup-209.246.95.63.newyork2.level3.net...
Glen Trew
Design is no longer in business.
Glen Trew
(Douglas Tourtelot <tour...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mfbd4.570$Nu6....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
howl...@my-deja.com
compressors define the art. The art is when NOT to use them.
When I first started mixing for film on Nagras I thought it was a big
mistake to compress anything. Tape compression was enough and sometimes
too much. Shortly after I bought my PD-2 I dug out my old dusty dbx
160's.
I now use a wide variety of compressors and limiters. Different ones for
different problems. Almost always very subtly. If I can hear it, it is
too much. But rules were meant to be broken.
I have yet to find a compressor that I really like and I have yet to find
a DC powered compressor that I like at all. Well not really, the Sonosax
compressors are by far the best DC compressor I have heard on are useful
when AC is not available. They are no match for a good AC powered
outboard. But I have a Cooper (I live in LA and I liked the idea that
they are made locally for servicing, modifications and I liked the
layout).
I resort to Aphex, Amek and dbx which I am not all that happy with. The
Amek is best but can be tricky and I don't like the metering. Pumping is
not a problem when they are set up right. I am looking into Crane Song,
Summit, and a few others in my quest for the Holy Grail of transparent
compression that retains top end detail with low noise and plenty of
headroom and is fast fast fast. Most compressors are way to slow for this
kind of work. Any one out there tried any of these?
Lee Howell
sound.digitalbomb.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Eric Toline
available in a dc version. The ac version lists at $199 for a 2 channel
1/2 rack size. The reviews from studio mixers say it's a great unit. It
can be seen at www.fmraudio.com.
Richard Kuschel
>
>To the best of my knowlege, as of nearly two years ago Reference Audio
>Design is no longer in business.
>
>Glen Trew
>
They are out of business and deservedly so!
I was a dealer for them . Their microphone preamp did not meet specs, the MS
wiring was reversed, the gain was lower than needed. The unit went into
oscillation at higher gain settings.
It makes it pretty tough to sell a unit that I cannot use myself.
Calls and letters to the designer produce no answers.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
Charles Tomaras
Also.... what happens to that big dynamic range with dailies?
"Glen Trew" <gl...@trewaudio.com> wrote in message
news:aCxd4.588$oH1....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> I think it's interesting that no one has mentioned the only reason we should
> use limiters for original recordings in the first place: to make the most
> out of the limited (pun NOT intended) dynamic range of our recording
> equipment. The reason has always been that if we set our levels so that the
> highest peak was still within the abilities of our equipment, then the other
> 99% of the program would be too noisy.
>
> No one mentioned that digital recording increases the available dynamic
> range we have to work within, but it's something we should think about. The
> accepted standard recording levels for 20 bit recording, such as with the
> Deva or Nagra D, allows for roughly 8dB more headroom than with analog
> recording. This would suggest that we should then essentially raise the
> threshold of our limiters by 8dB, doesn't it? But if we did that, then the
> limiters would hardly ever work.
>
> Exactly.
>
> Glen Trew
>
Glen Trew
use limiters for original recordings in the first place: to make the most
out of the limited (pun NOT intended) dynamic range of our recording
equipment. The reason has always been that if we set our levels so that the
highest peak was still within the abilities of our equipment, then the other
99% of the program would be too noisy.
No one mentioned that digital recording increases the available dynamic
range we have to work within, but it's something we should think about. The
accepted standard recording levels for 20 bit recording, such as with the
Deva or Nagra D, allows for roughly 8dB more headroom than with analog
recording. This would suggest that we should then essentially raise the
threshold of our limiters by 8dB, doesn't it? But if we did that, then the
limiters would hardly ever work.
Exactly.
Glen Trew
<howl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:855h2c$87e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Douglas Tourtelot
Not to be too nit-picky but what you describe is a compressor. Even with
digital, I still have need for limiters; to keep surprise peak program
material from going over 0FS. And they've saved my butt, too.
Regards,
--
Douglas Tourtelot, C.A.S.
tour...@earthlink.net
Seattle, WA
PS. When are the guys in daily transfer going to figure out compression?
That's where we really need it; when they try and cram 106dB of S/N onto a
60dB VHS tape. "Doug. This is post production. Your tracks seem a little
distorted on the loud parts." <bg>
Glen Trew <gl...@trewaudio.com> wrote in message
news:aCxd4.588$oH1....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Noah Timan
That's where we really need it; when they try and cram 106dB of S/N onto a
60dB VHS tape. >>
Amen!
howl...@my-deja.com
Oh brother telecine screws things up enough as it is. Can you imagine the
pumping? It's also one more thing in the signal chain for them to
distort. I suppose the only way out is to run two decks, maybe one 24 bit
for post and a heavily compressed 16 bit for dailies.
Lee Howell
Glen Trew
protect against distortion caused by peaks, and I agree that they are still
needed, particularly with original (and unpredictable) dialog recording. The
point I intended to make was that with the increased dynamic range that high
bit rate digital has to offer, it is logical that the threshold of the peak
limiters can be set so that they are not activating as often as we were/are
used to with analog.
I realize that it is more complicated than this, in part because the
headroom of analog boards seems to be calculated with the dynamic range of
analog tape in mind. That is a subject that would make an interesting new
thread. Anyone care to start it?
Glen Trew
Douglas Tourtelot <tour...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bvAd4.1176$Ul3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Hi Glen-
>
> Not to be too nit-picky but what you describe is a compressor. Even with
> digital, I still have need for limiters; to keep surprise peak program
> material from going over 0FS. And they've saved my butt, too.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> --
> Douglas Tourtelot, C.A.S.
> tour...@earthlink.net
> Seattle, WA
>
>
> PS. When are the guys in daily transfer going to figure out compression?
> That's where we really need it; when they try and cram 106dB of S/N onto
a
Mike Westgate
and having worked purely radio boom for the last two, the compression
available in the Lectrosonics UM195 transmitters is a very usable ajunct.
For my last two years of analogue (Nagra 4.2) I used a small 12 volt
operarable limiter/compressor English made by Audio & Design, and
using a 3:1 ratio for normal speech or 5:1 for louder passages it worked
well and was never perceived by post as being used.
Regards to all
Mike Westgate AMPS
www.mikewestgatesound.webnz.co.nz
David Waelder
it to be a great benefit. I work with an outboard dbx (model 166, fi I
recall correctly) whiich I have rack mounted into the cart just above the
Cooper drawer. It's patched into the insert sleeve in the Cooper so it is
operating on my boom channel and the second boom if applicable.
It does require a bit of attention in operation as I need to trip settingsw
as I trim the channel gain on the Cooper. I tend to run compression about
3:1 or 4:1, depending on circumstances and set it up so I am often operating
in what dbx calls "over easy." (an orange light flashes intermittently on
occasional peaks.) The compression is very gentle at this level and
everything sounds very natural.
I find that when I am actor is unexpectedly loud, the compressor handles the
hotter signal and the result is very much more natural the limiters built
into the Cooper or Sonosax.
Setting it up was a bit of a deal because the unit normally requires AC
poser. It could, perhaps operate on DC but it's not the most obvious
conversion because the actual power deliverd by the dbx AC power thingy is a
+18, -18 volt. The unit does operate off an inverter but I found it was
important to keep the inverter well away from other gear. In the end, I
built an inverter with isolation transformer into my support cart and had
Neil Stone make a special cable arrangement bringing DC power from my cart
battery over to the support cart and a return of appropriate power to the
dbx unit on the sound cart.
Something of thisw can be seen on my website in the article on the "perfect
soundcart."
website: http://www.productionrecording.com/
jump direct to the sound cart article:
http://www.productionrecording.com/TOOLStest2.html
Tom Brandau and I maintain the Productionrecrding site. It's presently
entirely non-commercial. We may explore some commercial aplications later
but for the time being, we have nothing to sell.
David Waelder
----------
In article <B49D09B3.6356%jws...@earthlink.net>, Jeff Wexler
<jws...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> in article nvPd4.6912$oH1....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com, Glen Trew at
> gl...@trewaudio.com wrote on 1/8/2000 3:12 PM:
>
>> I realize that it is more complicated than this, in part because the
>> headroom of analog boards seems to be calculated with the dynamic range of
>> analog tape in mind. That is a subject that would make an interesting new
>> thread. Anyone care to start it?
>>
> I would love such a thread, discussing levels, headroom, signal path,
> production and post-production processing and so forth. I have to admit that
> it is all a little confusing to me even at this point in my career because I
> have always done things sort of intuitively using my ears as the only real
> precision measurement tool I really know how to use.
>
> Regards, Jeff Wexler
>
Glen Trew
secret that the Cooper 106/108 has prewired circuitry for inserting a stereo
compressor/limiter in the output stage of the master module. The header
connector is already installed onto the circuit board. There is a bit of
modification to complete the insert points. This consists of cutting a
couple of traces, changing the value of some resistors and adding some
capacitors. Then a wiring harness is added from the circuit board connector
to two 1/4" tip-ring-sleeve insert jacks. On modifications we have
performed, we use the lower A & B monitor jack holes, replace them with
shorting type stereo jacks, and re-label them as Left & Right master insert
points. This way you can use the Cooper's limiters only as input peak
limiters (as they were intended) and control the dynamic range of the entire
recording with the outboard compressor.
Glen Trew
David Waelder <davi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vpsi4.2604$lN4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...