Location Sound Mixer Marketing Info
Marty Atias
been bugging me (well this whole topic bugs me, but I don't think I'm
alone in that).
After all the moaning about bottom feeding, and the defending statements
about why low rates are accepted (not that the rate is desirable, but
that jobs are accepted at these rates), there was one statement in Max's
original post that has not been explained -
" In all but one case, the sound mixer was the lowest paid department
head. ( I got a really cheap “Art Director�€? in one city.) ".
There were supporting statements which followed, but this is the key
one.
We all live in the same economy, we all work in the same pool of
productions. So why is this so? Does anyone know if this is the case on
other productions as well? Does this inequity strike anyone else as
being unacceptable or are we really worth less than G&E, art, makeup or
Vid Assist??
Here's a vicious cycle to consider - If other dep't heads are paid more,
then they can more easily afford to negotiate tougher for higher rates.
But you can't negotiate tougher unless you can afford to say no (and
have faith that others will do the same).
Check this out - Talk about bottom feeding? The NBC NETWORK news bureau
here in DC regularly hires daily sound people to work with staff camera
people. They will not pay for gear, because the staff guy is equipped
with a "sound package" for them to use. This package inevitably is
trashed gear in the trunk of the car. Well, whaddaya want from a one man
band? Many of these sound guys have been known to bring and use their
own gear anyway, for free, and justifying it by thinking they won't be
hired again if they turn in a bad tape due to the trashed gear. This has
been going on for years.
Done ranting now. Thanks, I feel better. Good Night
Marty Atias
shooter
>>
> " In all but one case, the sound mixer was the lowest paid department
> head. ( I got a really cheap “Art Director�€? in one city.) ".
>
>>
> here in DC regularly hires daily sound people to work with staff camera
> people. They will not pay for gear, because the staff guy is equipped
> with a "sound package" for them to use. This package inevitably is
> trashed gear in the trunk of the car. Well, whaddaya want from a one man
> band? Many of these sound guys have been known to bring and use their
> own gear anyway, for free, and justifying it by thinking they won't be
> hired again if they turn in a bad tape due to the trashed gear. This has
> been going on for years.
>
> Done ranting now. Thanks, I feel better. Good Night
Marty
I don't get it either. It was brought up that there's plenty of MOS
work but I'm working less and less with lighting crew and doing more
of the 2 man eng stuff. It pays the bills. So there's more demand for
sound these days. But many producers are throwing cheap sound at me,
its like a flood. I can only fight other peoples battles so much
before it really starts to hurt me. If I'm picking the audio person
I'm making sure they are good. If the producer picks 'em I wash my
hands of responsibilty. We're stuck in a difficult cycle and this
economy isn't making it any easier.
But how did this get started? I think by and large the audio dept is
made up of many of the nicest people in the biz. Nice poeple get
screwed. Sound dept people care about the quality of their work.
Caring people get taken advantage of. This is a picture biz and audio
is the step child that gets no respect. The music biz is notorious for
undercutting and low rates. Many audio persons came over from there
and are happy with the relatively better situation. That's 4
possibilities I can see.
shooter
WINZTON
undercutting and low rates. Many audio persons came over from there
and are happy with the relatively better situation.>>
Talking about the music biz, he says, us audio geeks like to have all the
newest shiniest toys and end up having to cut our rates to support our gear
addiction.
Our rates are lower and we tell ourselves we make it up on the gear, but we buy
so much gear it never really starts to turn profit in any meaningful way.
I'm grossly generalizing, of course. I just thought it is interesting that we
have a parallel in another industry.
- Winston
Rusty Fisher
In article <a0d6f1bb.02082...@posting.google.com>,
sho...@comcast.net (shooter) wrote:
<< Sound dept people care about the quality of their work.
Caring people get taken advantage of. >>
I once did a video job where the Producer asked me if I was from the feature
world. He told me I was too concerned about the sound and not to worry about
it. He said "I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SOUND JUST SO LONG AS IT GETS TO
TAPE."
What do you say to something like that?
Rusty
SERVING THE SOUTH - WEST
BOOM OPERATOR & AUDIO TECH
Rusty's info
PAGER # 888-487-3204
E-MAIL SOUND...@AOL.COM
Tourtelot
D.
--
Douglas Tourtelot, CAS
Seattle, WA
tourt...@attbi.com
206 795-0882
"Rusty Fisher" <sound...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020829231313...@mb-de.aol.com...
Rusty Fisher
RF
Noah Timan
world. He told me I was too concerned about the sound and not to worry about
it. He said "I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SOUND JUST SO LONG AS IT GETS TO
TAPE."
What do you say to something like that?
Rusty >>
Well, "I quit" comes to mind, if you can afford to do so...
Regards,
Noah Timan
Jny Vee
<Ma...@ATSComms.com> wrote:
> Check this out - Talk about bottom feeding? The NBC NETWORK news bureau
> here in DC regularly hires daily sound people to work with staff camera
> people. They will not pay for gear, because the staff guy is equipped
> with a "sound package" for them to use. This package inevitably is
> trashed gear in the trunk of the car. Well, whaddaya want from a one man
> band? Many of these sound guys have been known to bring and use their
> own gear anyway, for free, and justifying it by thinking they won't be
> hired again if they turn in a bad tape due to the trashed gear. This has
> been going on for years.
>
> Done ranting now. Thanks, I feel better. Good Night
>
> Marty Atias
a few years back I was doing pickup work for Crews Control, much for
USPS shoots, and while they did have a shop with gear I brought my own
for this very reason; I wanted to turn in good work. Did this for a
few years sometimes totally my own rig, sometimes knowing what I could
pull reliably from USPS studio gear augmented with specific personal
favs.
\John V
--
Perspective is vital to wisdom. It is indeed a good
thing to know that for every ELECTRIC LADYLAND there
were months/years/decades of tracking The Archies.
>> Help Keep The Net Emoticon Free! <<
John Garrett
Rusty Fisher wrote:
>
> In article <a0d6f1bb.02082...@posting.google.com>,
> sho...@comcast.net (shooter) wrote:
>
> << Sound dept people care about the quality of their work.
> Caring people get taken advantage of. >>
>
> I once did a video job where the Producer asked me if I was from the feature
> world. He told me I was too concerned about the sound and not to worry about
> it. He said "I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SOUND JUST SO LONG AS IT GETS TO
> TAPE."
> What do you say to something like that?
> Rusty
How about "I'll turn on the camera mic and be in my car filling out my timesheet
and doing the crossword. How do YOU feel about that, M producer?"
G. John Garrett, CAS
Rusty Fisher
In article <300820021434074303%moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com>, Jny Vee
<moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote:
<< A few years back I was doing pickup work for Crews Control, much for
USPS shoots, and while they did have a shop with gear I brought my own
for this very reason; I wanted to turn in good work. Did this for a
few years sometimes totally my own rig, sometimes knowing what I could
pull reliably from USPS studio gear augmented with specific personal
favs.
\John V >>
I have worked for them also. Did the same thing for a few shoots. Wondering if
they even know the reason they are having clients giving great reports about
the sound. It's cause we ARE using our own gear.
Thank you very much!!!!!!
Rusty
Rusty Fisher
In article <c4avmug86p5lppnhu...@4ax.com>, John Gilman
<see.a...@in.sig> wrote:
<< If he's paying your rate, the appropriate response is "yes sir"
--
John Gilman
zou...@newscene.com
>>
You are absolutely right, sir:)
RF
Rusty Fisher
In article <yCCb9.288126$UU1.52044@sccrnsc03>, "Tourtelot"
<tourt...@attbi.com> wrote:
<< What makes you think anyone cares in the feature world?
D. >>
That is what I was referring to when I wrote "If I was in the shot they would"
spell check is fine grammar not!!!!
RF
Mike Hall
I agree. However, I would still do my best to get good sound. I would ask the
producer if he wanted to be alerted to potential sound problems at all or only
wants sound to roll, cut and keep quiet. The problem with working on 'low end'
shows is that we are tempted to adopt the producer's frame of reference and
abandon whatever professionalism we may have learned in better days.
Was 'shooters' producer perhaps making a video documentary, shooting 'B' roll
stuff where the sound didn't matter much, planning to use sound as a cue track
only, or was he truly evil, stupid or insane?
Mike Hall, C.A.S.
John Gilman wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2002 03:13:13 GMT, sound...@aol.com (Rusty Fisher) wrote:
>
> >
> >In article <a0d6f1bb.02082...@posting.google.com>,
> >sho...@comcast.net (shooter) wrote:
> >
> ><< Sound dept people care about the quality of their work.
> >Caring people get taken advantage of. >>
> >
> >I once did a video job where the Producer asked me if I was from the feature
> >world. He told me I was too concerned about the sound and not to worry about
> >it. He said "I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SOUND JUST SO LONG AS IT GETS TO
> >TAPE."
> >What do you say to something like that?
> >Rusty
> >
> >
>
Rusty Fisher
In article <bvRb9.132992$aA.30645@sccrnsc02>, Mike Hall
<mikehalll@!hotmail.com> wrote:
<< Was 'shooters' producer perhaps making a video documentary, shooting 'B'
roll
stuff where the sound didn't matter much, planning to use sound as a cue track
only, or was he truly evil, stupid or insane?
If you are referring to my statement as to the Not needing great sound, then
the producer was stupid and insane. It was an interview int. and ext with the
same person. Sure they were taking bits but we had planes trains, autos, dogs,
and kids screaming. It was ridiculous.
All I can figure is he must have known what he wanted from the bad sound, for
his clips.
RF
Mike Hall, C.A.S. >>
Matt
This has quite possibly been one of the best discussions I've ever
read. Thank you for all your input. There are so many conflicting
sides that I have to preceed anything I say with the clarification
that these are only my opinions and I don't believe them to be gospel.
Now that I have that out of the way.
I have seen folks saying that the lowering of rates is the result of
supply and demand. I think Marty pointed out the flaw of this quite
clearly with his reference to carpenters and plumbers. Of course,
there is a hell of a lot more work for carpenters and plumbers. The
disturbing thing about most of these posts are the negativity.
Everyone on this list, with the exception of a few, are very
knowledgeable, gifted audio engineers. Why are we so prone to drop
our rates and think we suck?
Okay, the Jack Handey moment is over. The supply and demand idea is
dead on the money, I think. Unfortunately, it is also cold and cruel.
Such is the free market economy. Basically, some people will try to
take work by using rates lower than everyone else. However, these
people will eventually price themselves out of a job. That is to say,
they will make so little money that they will have to find another
line of work, won't be able to pay off their credit cards, won't be
able to rent that one piece of gear they really need, etc. So, they
will fade through natural selection if you will. So will the cheapest
production companies. If they do crappy work, then they won't be
hired and eventually will go under. Thus, they won't continue to ask
sound folks for ridiculously low rates. It all works, but it can take
50 years, which is unfortunate for us all.
Unfortunately, it is kind of like the idea that bad TV shows will go
off the air because no one will watch them. It doesn't work because
there is no direct feedback loop. It is kind of like electing a
president. It takes a hell of a lot of people to effect what is on TV
unless they storm the studios with flaming torches. My point is that
some people are content with half-assed commercials because they can't
afford nicer one's or they just don't know what quality is. Being
Americans, we always want the same quality for half the price.
We are hypocrites, though. How many of us have purchased a microphone
from someone because it was cheaper? For that matter, how many of you
go to the locally owned grocery store to buy more expensive lettuce,
than going to Kroger's, etc. where it is cheaper? This is not just a
professional industry trend. The entire economy of the U.S. has
shifted over the years to larger "one stop shopping" stores. This is
just now hitting the location sound industry as technology becomes
more affordable.
It is parallel to the transformation the recording studio industry has
been going through. Suddenly, some kid in his bedroom can have a
24-track hard disc recording studio for less than a single 24-track
mixing board at a professional studio. The error in thinking is that
the equipment contains the "magic" that will allow anyone to be a
professional audio engineer. This is, I believe, what we now see
happening in the pro location engineering field. NBC thinks if they
just have the audio equipment and a camera that it is just a matter of
teaching someone to push the right buttons. They have our magic wand,
or so they think. We have all complained about the way NBC is cutting
out the audio guy with the new PD150's, but the camera folks are now
out of the picture too, if the reporter is just setting it up on a
stand. Eventually, I hope, NBC will come to realize they screwed up.
The point is that this whole thing is much bigger than any of us.
From another view point, let's suppose that the reason NBC has made
this move is due to cost cutting required as a result of less revenue
as a result of less ads sold as a result of less viewers as a result
of the internet. So, do we picket for the internet to be shut down?
Or, do we adapt?
The internet seems to be another area of promise. I know, they have
even less capital and probably pay even less. But, it is a new
doorway to look into. Being in the Southeast U.S., there aren't many
features being filmed in the L.A. fashion. But, there are numerous
people employed in location sound getting good rates. Some work on TV
shows, some work on music videos, some work in corporate video, some
actually work in media departments at large corporations. If
anything, the world we live in is becoming more saturated with media,
whether it is video, film, radio, internet, or whatever the next big
thing is. This seems promising for our future employment. As people
become more used to more sophisticated mass media, their expectations
will be raised. They will not settle on half-assed audio or video.
They will want quality. As proof of this, look at commercials from
the 1950's. No one would consider doing commercials like that now
except as a joking reference to nostalgia. This is due to the general
public being more savvy. Advertisers know they have to be one step
ahead of the public to sell anything. The X-files was being broadcast
in surround sound. More and more TV shows are. This seems to point
to an interest in good audio not less interest.
I've rambled a lot. Hopefully not too much. The nutshell of all this
is that things change, the industry seems to be going through a
shakedown right now, and hopefully the jerks trying to lowball us on
rates will eventually either drop dead as companies or become more
successful and require better audio than they can get from the
director's teenage son, thus requiring them to seek us out and
possibly even pay a reasonable rate. While I think that NBC has made
a terrible mistake in their choice of PD150 one-man crews, we can
either be angry at them, or learn to use a PD150 and beat them at
their own game. A lot of videographers are learning to be basic sound
guys, why not the other way around? Yes, that is an extreme concept,
but if we have the technical ability to record good audio in
impossible conditions, why couldn't we learn to use a camcorder in a
very basic way? Then we have double the potential market . . . sort
of.
Well, that's enough. I hope this will spur some lively discussion.
Rather than bitch about how unfair the world is, I'd like to hear what
some of you are doing to deal with the changing markets. Are you
doing more corporate work? Have you moved into live sound for bands?
This would be very help, I think, to everyone, especially folks
reading this who may be having a hard time finding work and needing
some insight into ways to diversify.
Okay, I promis not to post for another year, as I'm sure my word quota
is up.
Take care,
Matt
Smartsound
pride and professionalism. But don't defend your giving away your rental
package to production in the name of quality. Cause no other dept. does it or
is expected to do it. It is not the path to improvement for our fellow and
future mixers.
2. There are few dept. heads that spend the kind of money on gear, to own, like
we do. Production rents cams, lights, grip, sets and wardrobe for the crews.
These are hard costs and are anticipated as well as overuns.
3. If they don't see the reasons to pay us for our gear, then they won't
understand the value of our experience. That's when our rates go too.
4. We know that we are held to the highest level of accountability on a set, as
far as getting each take perfect, and most of us enjoy the challenge, for the
most part we are one of the few dept.s that gets it right every take. Heck, we
have done such a good job they now think it's automatic.
5. It's up to us to recognize the value of what we do and put a dollar sign on
it. Otherwise we are part of the problem.
P.S. two more things,
I have, respectfully and politely, turned down too many jobs this summer due to
low rates and they all have found someone to mix for them.
and will the joker who emailed me off group please fill me in on why he called
me "John Coffee jr." Is that suppose to be a cut? Please next you'll be
comparing me to Jeff Wexler or some other fine mixer . Joker, you or I should
be so lucky to have their resumes and earn their rates.
Marty Atias
Jny Vee wrote:
And just how does this benefit you? You say you want to turn in good work.
Very admirable. But you don't get the credit, Crews Control does. The risk to
you is that once you set the precedent, they will expect you to use your own
gear. Since you have been giving it to them for free, they will ask others to
do the same, and you will not be able to justify charging them for it later.
You only perpetuate the problem.
Only give them what they pay for, and have them pay for what you give them!
Marty Atias
Noah Timan
just have the audio equipment and a camera that it is just a matter of
teaching someone to push the right buttons. They have our magic wand,
or so they think. >>
Maybe...or they may also have taken into account the detriment in sound quality
they will experience, and have decided that having inferior audio won't cost
them a significant number of audience members.
Noah Timan
like
we do. Production rents cams, lights, grip, sets and wardrobe for the crews.
These are hard costs and are anticipated as well as overuns. >>
This is true, but bearing in mind most of my features have been indies, I have
seen many of my fellow crew members in the camera, grip, and electric
departments struggle hardily to make it work with what is clearly not enough
gear, or the proper gear, to work efficiently and achieve the desired results.
I agree with your points and your post, but I'm just putting out the food for
thought that if production paid for our equipment the way that they do for
other departments, we certainly would have many of the same woes as our friends
in other departments.
Regards,
Noah Timan
Charles Tomaras
one-man-band shoots that never used a sound person in the first place. NBC is still hiring
sound people for primary interviews, remotes, and other shoots where sound,
transcriptions, and "muscle" are needed. I just don't believe the Today Show, Nightly News
and Dateline are going DV for anything more than B-roll and surveillance undercover type
shots. If anything in a few more years they will be upgrading their video and audio
standards as higher definition programming finally reaches the magazine shows and then the
news shows. There will always be work for qualified operators.
Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA
"Noah Timan" <noah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020831200511...@mb-cm.aol.com...
WINZTON
Just my opinion.
- Winston
Rusty
In article <20020901111537...@mb-mq.aol.com>, win...@aol.com
(WINZTON) wrote:
<< Cruise Control. >>
They DRIVE you. You don't drive yourself.
Oh you mean Crews Control. :0)
That is why I love freelance work(with out a middle man)
RF