Godfather II and Frankie Pentangelo
John Crouch
Can somebody explain to me why Frankie Pentangelo did not testify to the
senate committee? That is, why did his brother's presence have such an
impact on him? This isn't really explained in the film and was just
wondering what the reasons were.
John Crouch
cro...@students.uiuc.edu
Christpoher M. Ripp
John Crouch <cro...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in article
<01bbc9fa$46de4780$9f6b...@dialup.cso.uiuc.edu>...
It's been a while since I've seen it so I might be waay off here:
Wasn't it because Frankie was running his organization in less than an
honorable fashion, and his brother was a person he looked up to. If Frankie
were to testify with his brother present he would have let him down/ruined
the family honor/etc. etc. etc.
At least that's how I took it.
--
= Christopher M. Ripp ================ http://www.matrixbel.com/~ripp =
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ri...@tulsa.dowell.slb.com
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Vincent
>While Frankie was willing to testify and risk his own life (although
>he hedged his bets by going in the witness protection program), he did
>not want to see a loved one killed. We are told by Tom Hagan (Robert
>Duvall's character) that Mr. Pentangelo's brother "speaks no English"
>and "has come a long way to be by his brother's side in his time of
>crisis".
>In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>obviously worked.
>- Jeff M.
I'm not quite sure if that was Michael Corleone's plan. That might
have been a follow-up alternate plan if his original scheme would not
have worked. I think his original scheme was to bring in Frankie's
brother and have him present there. I think that Michael was wise
enough to know that that was all that the family needed to keep
Frankie's mouth shut. The sight of his brother brought back so much
guilt about the family that he was going to betray.
Vincent
vr...@ix.netcom.com
http://users.aol.com/VRV1/index.html
Jeff M.
film...@aol.com wrote:
>
> <<In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
> brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
> with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
> obviously worked.>>
>
> blood oath, taken particularly seriously in Italy. Frankie's brother is
> brought into the courtroom to shame Frankie -- not as a hostage - and to
> remind him of his higher duty. To say that the Mafia "had discovered" his
> brother in Italy is silly. We know from both films that there are no
> secrets in Italy in the Mafia.
> \
> Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
If "there are no secrets in Italy in the Mafia" than why
bring his brother to the court room. Hell, he would find
out in Italy and Frankie would be shamed anyway. I respect
your theory - but I still think it was simply a threat.
Perhaps his brother was not in the Mafia. Did I miss a
reference to his brother being in the Mafia? Please let
me know if I did, as I thought I understood this scene.
- Jeff
Wes Wildcat
>In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>obviously worked.
>- Jeff M.
I was brought in to make sure that Frankie didn't talk. Who
know, if Frankie did talk, maybe his own brother would be the one to
take his brothers life. Frankie did say how much tougher his brother
was compared to himself, and Michael also told Kay, "it was between the
brothers."
-Wes
film...@aol.com
<<In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
obviously worked.>>
I don't buy this. The code of the Mafia has always been silence. It is a
film...@aol.com
<<If "there are no secrets in Italy in the Mafia" than why
bring his brother to the court room. Hell, he would find
out in Italy and Frankie would be shamed anyway.>>
This is an older brother, clearly the head of the family. The concept of
honor is Sicily is very strong. There is no comparison between seeing his
brother in the hearing room and "knowing" that he would find out in Italy.
Whether he is in the Mafia or not isn't the point. He is a reminder to
Frankie about honoring his oath. This is the whole underpinning of the
Mafia - family, honor and loyalty. The fact that all this is in the
service of crime is immaterial.
Bob Martin
"Jeff M." <jmic...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>John Crouch wrote:
>>
>> Can somebody explain to me why Frankie Pentangelo did not testify to the
>> senate committee?
<snip>
>
>While Frankie was willing to testify and risk his own life (although
>he hedged his bets by going in the witness protection program), he did
>not want to see a loved one killed.
<snip>
Sorry, but flimgene is on the right track. Remember, when Tom Hagen goes
to visit Frankie at the FBI facility and they talk about taking care of
Frankie's family if Frankie does the "honorable" thing and kills himself,
Frankie tells Tom his brother is a tough old bird who could have had his
own family if he wanted.
It is indeed the Mafia code of silence that Frankie's brother embodies. I
don't think Mario Puzo ever thought Frankie's brother was in danger of
being killed. He simply is a reminder to Frankie that there are ways of
doing things, and one of them is NOT testifying before a Senate committee.
As all three Godfather movies (and a lot of gangland warfare in the 1950s)
show, troubles in the Mafia are taken care of in the Mafia.
"What a story! Everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end."
Prof. Irvin Roberts
Who ordered the death of Pentangeli?
After the failed assassination attempt
on Michael's life in Tahoe, Michael goes
to Miami and tells Hyman Roth (paraphrased):
"Frank Pentangeli tried to have me killed.
I was lucky, he was stupid; I'll visit him
soon." Roth seems unmoved, and Michael
says, "...so you don't mind if Pentangeli
is a dead man?"
Roth shrugs and says: "He's small potatoes."
Then Michael goes to New York and tells
Pentangeli that he's sure that it was
_Hyman Roth_ who tried to have him killed.
Pentangeli offers to help wipe out Roth and
the Rizzato brothers, but Michael
tells Pentangeli to keep hands off
to avoid jeopardizing the Cuban deal with
Roth. Pentangeli, is unhappy, but
re-affirms his loyalty to Michael.
Later, Pentangeli is (unsuccessfully) strangled
in the bar in New York, the henchman says,
"Michael Corleone says hello."
Near the end of the story,
before the Senate hearing, Tom Hagen tells
Michael that Pentangeli is testifying against
Michael because "you turned on him."
If it was Michael who ordered the death
of Pentangeli, then why did the henchman
say, "Michael Corleone says hello."?
Was the statement
purely an act of hubris on the part of
an underling (who was it, anyway? Cicci?)?
Yet, most of the murders in GI/II
are done efficiently -- without
incriminating small talk or taunting
of the victim --
e.g., Luca Brasi, Carlo, Barzini, etc.,
and all this does is come back to haunt Michael
when he needs Pentangeli's help in the Senate
hearing.
But, Roth had no more reason to kill Pentangeli,
because Michael said he would order it.
And if the Rizzato brothers acted alone,
then how would they know that Michael
had a gripe against Pentangeli?
So, who ordered the death of
Pentangeli -- Michael, Roth, or
the Rizzato Brothers?
Jeff M.
Vincent wrote:
>
> >While Frankie was willing to testify and risk his own life (although
> >he hedged his bets by going in the witness protection program), he did
> >Duvall's character) that Mr. Pentangelo's brother "speaks no English"
> >and "has come a long way to be by his brother's side in his time of
> >crisis".
>
> >brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
> >with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
> >obviously worked.
>
>
> I'm not quite sure if that was Michael Corleone's plan. That might
> have been a follow-up alternate plan if his original scheme would not
> have worked. I think his original scheme was to bring in Frankie's
> brother and have him present there. I think that Michael was wise
> enough to know that that was all that the family needed to keep
> Frankie's mouth shut. The sight of his brother brought back so much
> guilt about the family that he was going to betray.
> Vincent
> vr...@ix.netcom.com
> http://users.aol.com/VRV1/index.html
I stand corrected. People that read the novel say it is more
clear. Frankie has family in Italy that will be taken care of
as long as he keeps his oath. Thanks for the follow ups. I am
going to re-watch this and see if any more hints are dropped in
the movie.
- Jeff M.
Quinn M Chavez
>> Can somebody explain to me why Frankie Pentangelo did not testify to the
>> impact on him? This isn't really explained in the film and was just
>> wondering what the reasons were.
>>
> It's been a while since I've seen it so I might be waay off here:
>Wasn't it because Frankie was running his organization in less than an
>honorable fashion, and his brother was a person he looked up to. If Frankie
>were to testify with his brother present he would have let him down/ruined
>the family honor/etc. etc. etc.
> At least that's how I took it.
>
I always took it as "Frank you say anything, your WHOLE family
gets it". Remember Tom Hayden tells the committee that the
brother flew in from Italy at his own expense just to be there.
Kay later asks Mike why he would come all this way and say nothing.
QMC
Jack Heraty
"Jeff M." <jmic...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>film...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> <<In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>> brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>> with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>> obviously worked.>>
>>
>> I don't buy this. The code of the Mafia has always been silence. It is a
>> blood oath, taken particularly seriously in Italy. Frankie's brother is
>> brought into the courtroom to shame Frankie -- not as a hostage - and to
>> remind him of his higher duty. To say that the Mafia "had discovered" his
>> brother in Italy is silly. We know from both films that there are no
>> secrets in Italy in the Mafia.
>> \
>> Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
>
>If "there are no secrets in Italy in the Mafia" than why
>bring his brother to the court room. Hell, he would find
>out in Italy and Frankie would be shamed anyway. I respect
>your theory - but I still think it was simply a threat.
>Perhaps his brother was not in the Mafia. Did I miss a
>reference to his brother being in the Mafia? Please let
>me know if I did, as I thought I understood this scene.
>
>- Jeff
Yes, you missed the reference. Watch for the scene when Tom Hagen
talks to him about "doing the honorable thing, just like the Romans
did", while they're smoking cigars. Of course his brother was in the
mafia in Sicily. They talk about it. Gene is absolutely correct
here. And as for his brother finding out in Sicily, I think the fact
he was sitting ten feet away vs. being in Sicily is juuuust a bit
different.
--
Jack Heraty
The movies are great medicine/
Thank you, Thomas Edison/
For giving us The Best Years of Our Lives
- The Statler Brothers
Jack Heraty
"Jeff M." <jmic...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>John Crouch wrote:
>>
>> Can somebody explain to me why Frankie Pentangelo did not testify to the
>> senate committee? That is, why did his brother's presence have such an
>> impact on him? This isn't really explained in the film and was just
>> wondering what the reasons were.
>>
>> John Crouch
>> cro...@students.uiuc.edu
>
>While Frankie was willing to testify and risk his own life (although
>he hedged his bets by going in the witness protection program), he did
>not want to see a loved one killed. We are told by Tom Hagan (Robert
>Duvall's character) that Mr. Pentangelo's brother "speaks no English"
>and "has come a long way to be by his brother's side in his time of
>crisis".
>
>In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>obviously worked.
>
>- Jeff M.
Dead wrong. Didn't you people watch the rest of the movie? Where
Frank Pentangeli tells Tom Hagen how his brother was tougher than just
about anyone he knew? To rat on his friends would be a violation of
Omerta, the mafia's code of silence, and there is no way he could do
that in front of his brother.
Jack Heraty
z...@cjnetworks.com (Ned Fleming) wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Nov 1996 17:31:10 -0500, in rec.arts.movies.past-films,
>Jeff M. wrote:
>
>>film...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> <<In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>>> brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>>> with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>>> obviously worked.>>
>>>
>>> I don't buy this. The code of the Mafia has always been silence. It is a
>>> blood oath, taken particularly seriously in Italy. Frankie's brother is
>>> brought into the courtroom to shame Frankie -- not as a hostage - and to
>>> remind him of his higher duty. To say that the Mafia "had discovered" his
>>> brother in Italy is silly. We know from both films that there are no
>>> secrets in Italy in the Mafia.
>>> \
>>> Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
>>
>>If "there are no secrets in Italy in the Mafia" than why
>>bring his brother to the court room. Hell, he would find
>>out in Italy and Frankie would be shamed anyway. I respect
>>your theory - but I still think it was simply a threat.
>>Perhaps his brother was not in the Mafia. Did I miss a
>>reference to his brother being in the Mafia? Please let
>>me know if I did, as I thought I understood this scene.
>
>Later, when Tom visits F Pentangeli in the hoosegow and they break
>out the cigars, Tom assures Pentangeli to "not worry about his
>family" (or words to that effect). What would this mean but that
>Pentangeli should have worried about his family had he not
>stonewalled the mafia commission?
>
His children, not his brother. C'mon, why is this so hard to
understand? Listen to the rest of that same conversation. They talk
about how tough his brother is. How come no one remembers this?
Matjaz Mohor
spr...@ix.netcom.com (Jack Heraty) wrote:
> "Jeff M." <jmic...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>>film...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> <<In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>>> brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>>> with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>>> obviously worked.>>
>>>
>>> I don't buy this. The code of the Mafia has always been silence. It is a
>>> blood oath, taken particularly seriously in Italy. Frankie's brother is
>>> brought into the courtroom to shame Frankie -- not as a hostage - and to
>>> remind him of his higher duty. To say that the Mafia "had discovered" his
>>> brother in Italy is silly. We know from both films that there are no
>>> secrets in Italy in the Mafia.
>>> \
>>> Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
>>
>>If "there are no secrets in Italy in the Mafia" than why
>>bring his brother to the court room. Hell, he would find
>>out in Italy and Frankie would be shamed anyway. I respect
>>your theory - but I still think it was simply a threat.
>>Perhaps his brother was not in the Mafia. Did I miss a
>>reference to his brother being in the Mafia? Please let
>>me know if I did, as I thought I understood this scene.
>>
>>- Jeff
>Yes, you missed the reference. Watch for the scene when Tom Hagen
>talks to him about "doing the honorable thing, just like the Romans
>did", while they're smoking cigars. Of course his brother was in the
>mafia in Sicily. They talk about it. Gene is absolutely correct
>here. And as for his brother finding out in Sicily, I think the fact
>he was sitting ten feet away vs. being in Sicily is juuuust a bit
>different.
>--
>Jack Heraty
>The movies are great medicine/
>Thank you, Thomas Edison/
>For giving us The Best Years of Our Lives
> - The Statler Brothers
Hmmmmm.. you don't know first things about mafia: in a sorrounding
where mafia operates(e.g. Sicilly) everybody is in mafia... Communism
works like this... we were all communists when communism was here.. I
entered the Party at 7 years of age as a part of education... to leave
this aside: his brother was not found but brought to Frank to femind
him what could happen and to remind him what a shame it would be for
the famiglia in Sicilly if one would help the other side instead to
his own.
Matjaz Mohor
spr...@ix.netcom.com (Jack Heraty) wrote:
> "Jeff M." <jmic...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>>John Crouch wrote:
>>>
>>> Can somebody explain to me why Frankie Pentangelo did not testify to the
>>> senate committee? That is, why did his brother's presence have such an
>>> impact on him? This isn't really explained in the film and was just
>>> wondering what the reasons were.
>>>
>>> John Crouch
>>> cro...@students.uiuc.edu
>>
>>While Frankie was willing to testify and risk his own life (although
>>he hedged his bets by going in the witness protection program), he did
>>not want to see a loved one killed. We are told by Tom Hagan (Robert
>>Duvall's character) that Mr. Pentangelo's brother "speaks no English"
>>and "has come a long way to be by his brother's side in his time of
>>crisis".
>>
>>In other words, they found out he had a brother in Italy - and
>>brought him to the court room to show Frankie that if he went through
>>with his testimony, his brother would not live much longer. It
>>obviously worked.
>>
>>- Jeff M.
>Dead wrong. Didn't you people watch the rest of the movie? Where
>Frank Pentangeli tells Tom Hagen how his brother was tougher than just
>about anyone he knew? To rat on his friends would be a violation of
>Omerta, the mafia's code of silence, and there is no way he could do
>that in front of his brother.
>--
>Jack Heraty
>The movies are great medicine/
>Thank you, Thomas Edison/
>For giving us The Best Years of Our Lives
> - The Statler Brothers
The thing is you're both right! The case is.. honor of the family and
a death threat to his brother
Christopher Siciliano
I don't agree with the death threat to the brother, I think they were
talking about the lives of Frank's wife and kids because Tom indicated
they would be taken care of if he did right thing.
Chris