Spike Lee on Robert Zemeckis' Latent Racism & DO THE RIGHT THING...
Next2TheMoon
director Robert Zemeckis. Lee takes Zemeckis to task for his films FORREST GUMP
and BACK TO THE FUTURE--not for being bad films, but for their politics.
In FORREST GUMP, a young Forrest is shown to teach Elvis how to dance. In BACK
TO THE FUTURE, Zemeckis suggests that Marty McFly (Michael J Fox) was the
inspiration for Chuck Berry's sound and stage presence. It is, of course, a
well-known fact that Elvis (while still a stylistic innovator) was heavily
influenced by black artists and that, beyond doubt, Chuck Berry was wholly
original and a true artist. When I saw both GUMP and BTTF, I didn't think that
those scenes were anything but cutesy little gags (that made me *want* to
gag--I hate that cutesy crap).
But to Spike Lee (I hope I am stating his case fairly), these gags aren't
merely cute. No, from Lee's perspective, these seemingly innocent revisions of
history are a slap in the face to black artists. Both Lee and his
cinematographer (I think) call this outright "bullshit".
I like Spike Lee. A lot. He's provided me with many hours of entertainment,
insight and has inspired both quiet and not-so-quiet contemplation. I don't
like Robert Zemeckis. At all. His movies make me wanna puke.
But is Spike right? From my white American viewpoint, I've seen both those
scenes a few times and did not once think, "Zemeckis--what a racist bastard."
But I hear what Spike is saying. I just don't think he's right about Zemeckis'
intent, intentional or unintentional.
What do you think?
I think a reverse parallel of Spike's accusation is the
spiritually-elevated-person-of-color who teaches the white folks how to be
better people (MATRIX, LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE, UNBREAKABLE, GHOST, AMERICAN
HISTORY X, etc).
(Remember the old Hollywood cliche about if there is just one black man in a
movie, then *he* will be the one killed? It seems now that Hollywood's newest
take on that cliche is that if there is just one black person in a movie, then
that person will be the one to say something incredibly deep. And, then for
good measure, they might kill him off anyway.)
One last thing:
Spike also make it a point to mention at least five times on the DVD that while
many, many people have asked him if Mookie did indeed do the right thing, that
"to this day, not one person of color has *ever* asked me that question." I
mention this because, I too, have wondered if Mookie did do the right thing.
Spike seems incredulous that Mookie's actions are constantly questioned, yet
the cops' killing of Radio Raheem receives very little mention or attention.
Lee takes this as white America values property more than human life (at least
black human life).
I don't see it like that. I think that there is no debate within the actions of
the cops. Of course they didn't do the right thing. A better comparison is
Sal's destroying Radio Raheem's box. Did Sal do the right thing? Hell no. Did
Mookie? Hell no. Did Radio Raheem? Hell no. Did the cops? (Of course) double
hell no.
Again, what do you think?
Man...an Ancient race...
and do black artists ever admit they were influenced by white artists?
--
http://www.angelfire.com/movies/gaza/
"Next2TheMoon" <next2t...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010227080047...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
Man...an Ancient race...
--
http://www.angelfire.com/movies/gaza/
"steve" <st...@steve.com> wrote in message
news:97gft1$qsj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
>
> On 27-Feb-2001, next2t...@aol.com (Next2TheMoon) wrote:
>
> > But is Spike right? From my white American viewpoint, I've seen both
those
> > scenes a few times and did not once think, "Zemeckis--what a racist
> > bastard."
> > But I hear what Spike is saying. I just don't think he's right about
> > Zemeckis'
> > intent, intentional or unintentional.
>
> Spike is wrong, or has at least lost perspective. I find it odd that
someone
> who has made so many thoughtful and complex films about race issues
> continues to trivialize the issue with his idiotic statements. I thought
> his criticism of Terrentino for use of the word "nigger", in fact, smacked
> of anti-white racism. Didn't see GUMP, but the comment about BTTF is
absurd
> because of the trivial nature of the film itself. Further, he reads much
> into the film to reach that highly questionable inference. Seems as if he
> has a chip on his shoulder, and is picking on the first chump to come
along.
>
what thoughtful movies about race? his movies are dishonest and full of
bull.
>
> I asked a couple black guys (I'm white) why mookie attacked the man who
had
> been good to him and was clearly not racist. They laughed, and told me it
> was simply pent up rage, and the target was not Sal specifically, but
> society in general. They didn't feel, however, that it was "the right
> thing", rather that it was understandable. I buy this.
or rather spike lee was grandstanding to blacks and sucker liberals that
he's a badass liberal even with his kermit the frog face.
>
>
> I agree with you assessment. No discussion is necessary because it is
clear
> the cops were wrong. Again, it seems Spike has a chip on his shoulder.
when will spike lee makes movies about blacks who kill and assault people
for fun and gain? this liberal b.s. paradigm that says blacks just do it
out of despair and rage is bull. they do it for fun.
also, spike lee sides with radio raheem in the same way that 80% of blacks
sided with o.j. simpson. in that case, not some guy like raheem but two
innocent whites died. but blacks acted like a bunch of crazed lunatics,
laughing, dancing, and wiggling their ass with joy. they were worse than
the redneck jury that overlook trials against white bigots.
it's about time blacks accepted responsibilty instead of dishing out this
despair b.s. that liberal hollywood crams down our throat and our more
gullible white liberal types swallow as they were brainwashed since
chidlhood to defer to blacks as though blacks are inherently nobler. b.s.
>
> Oddly enough, I always felt that Spike was critical of the trivial
attitude
> displayed by the guy who organized the boycott of Sals. Yet, it seems
Spike
> is guilty of the same trivial treatment of race. On top of that, I felt
> "Bamboozled" was a general critique of blacks who continue to "shuck and
> jive" for white society. That group includes most of popular black
culture,
> especially angry black culture (rappers, etc.) as they too are playing a
> part for the benefit (i.e. to shock and frighten) white society. I felt
> Spike was saying that blacks should adopt a more mature and sophisticated
> attitude, live their lives responsibly, and stop presenting themselves to
> the world, and emphasizing and using race. This is a great message, but
now
> I must wonder if I got it horribly wrong.
>
> Or...is Spike Lee just fucking with us? I believe that is a real
> possibility, too.
>
spike lee will grow up when he shows black problems as black problems
instead of pretending to halfway and then laying it all on whites. if
whites are the problem then how come all of black africa is so utterly
hopeless? spike lee will say blacks have problems because white man took
away his culture. i say blacks have problem because too much of their
african stupid culture still remains.
steve
--
"It aint me, man, it's the system."
Charles Manson
steve
On 27-Feb-2001, bill...@aol.com.exx (Bill Warren) wrote:
> >What are you, my arch nemesis?
>
> Is that how you regard people who disagree with you?
Only when it happens every time I post!
Just a joke, actually. If I didnt like debate I wouldnt be posting. You
just happen to be a constant detractor (one of about 3).
steve
Next2TheMoon
>spike lee is a humorless boogerhead.
>
>and do black artists ever admit they were influenced by white artists?
Spike Lee does, actually.
Next2TheMoon
<snip race ranting bull>
>it's about time blacks accepted responsibilty instead of dishing out this
>despair b.s.
What's funny about your post is that Spike Lee feels the same exact way you do
(on this one point).
>spike lee will grow up when he shows black problems as black problems
>instead of pretending to halfway and then laying it all on whites.
He doesn't do that at all. He is quite pointed in his criticism of the black
community's lack of initiative in DO THE RIGHT THING. And did you even see GET
ON THE BUS?
> i say blacks have problem because too much of their
>african stupid culture still remains.
Blacks have problems for a lot of different reasons. These issues are complex
and cannot be broken down into one cause, one effect. To try and do so speaks
much more loudly of your own inadequecies than those who you attempting to
categorize.
The Avocado Avenger
>On the DVD commentary for DO THE RIGHT THING, Spike Lee criticizes fellow
>director Robert Zemeckis. Lee takes Zemeckis to task for his films FORREST GUMP
>and BACK TO THE FUTURE--not for being bad films, but for their politics.
>In FORREST GUMP, a young Forrest is shown to teach Elvis how to dance. In BACK
>TO THE FUTURE, Zemeckis suggests that Marty McFly (Michael J Fox) was the
>inspiration for Chuck Berry's sound and stage presence.
In the case of 'Back to the Future', Marty has heard the song "Johnny B
Goode" in his world of the 1980s, and simply plays it again when he's
transported back to the 1950s. The implication that Marty teaches this to
Barry is a false one, because Barry's recording taught Marty, not the
other way around. It's a paradox wrapped in the guise of a cutsey gag,
and it's not a very well-executed scene, either. It would be hard to
convince me that the scene was created to imply that whites were the
creators of true rock 'n' roll.
Coupled with the scene from 'Forrest Gump', I would say that Zemeckis is
playing heavily on similar "what-ifs" and not trying to undermine some
significant cultural contributions by blacks. I belive Gump in the movie
is credited with creating a lot more than Elvis' dance moves, and some
things he "steals" are from whites.
>I think a reverse parallel of Spike's accusation is the
>spiritually-elevated-person-of-color who teaches the white folks how to be
>better people (MATRIX, LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE, UNBREAKABLE, GHOST, AMERICAN
>HISTORY X, etc).
I find that stereotype to be pervasive in almost anything. Just look at
1-900 queen Cleo; it's not just popular in movies, it's a popular idea in
almost anything. If there's going to be a mystical spiritual character,
it will be a black person or a Native American. Bah.
>Spike seems incredulous that Mookie's actions are constantly questioned, yet
>the cops' killing of Radio Raheem receives very little mention or attention.
>Lee takes this as white America values property more than human life (at least
>black human life).
Mookie's actions were studied a lot more closely than the actions of the
cops. As you said later, there is no debate as to whether the cops did
the right thing or not. It's obvious. Mookie's actions, though, are
presented to make you think, so there is a dilemma, even if it's not a
huge dilemma. You see his struggle with the issue. The cops are simply
2D characters created to do one thing.
Stacia * The Avocado Avenger * Life is a tale told by an idiot;
http://www.io.com/~stacia/ * Full of sound and fury,
There is no guacamole anywhere. * Signifying nothing.
Man...an Ancient race...
> >spike lee will grow up when he shows black problems as black problems
> >instead of pretending to halfway and then laying it all on whites.
>
> He doesn't do that at all. He is quite pointed in his criticism of the
black
> community's lack of initiative in DO THE RIGHT THING. And did you even see
GET
> ON THE BUS?
he does this by trashing other people. he has to caricaturize koreans and
make the black audience feel resentment for their meager success. And,
though he raises the issue about black laziness, he more than balances and
smoothes this point of view by showing how fun and colorful these aimless
black folks are. take mookie. he's shown to be lazy but lee makes it so
comical and adorable that the sting of criticism wears off. it's much
less self-criticism than self-serving pretense at emphasizing
responsibility. it's like how black leaders will start off a speech by
saying, yes family matters and teenage kids should abstain from unprotected
sex, and so forth and so on but soon enough, we get the big BUT, where the
only solution is again to bleed whitey's pocketbook thru big goverment and
lazy bureaucracy and affirmative action. it's all so predictable and lee's
movies are mere dramatic carbon copies of this mindset. 'oh brother why
you is so lazy'.. lee amiably cackles and cajoles.. BUT soon enough there he
is once again...'cuz the whitey put us down, that's why and so we must burn
down whitey and turn despair into rage'. what idiot falls for this
manipulative jive? only a fool liberal whose guilt conscience was
manufactured and installed into his empty brain cavity by the PC industry.
and in get on the bus, the one black guy who has initiative is caricaturized
as an uncle tom republican clown who ONLY cares about money. get on the
bus proved spike lee is just a black would-be-hip stanley kramer and nothing
more. nothing but pompous speeches and obviou situations where morality is
clearly black and white.
and why do white liberal fools fall for this b.s.? this proves white
liberalism is the sorriest b.s. in america. it's afraid to call an lying
pompous idiot a lying pompous idiot simply because he's black and
grandstands with political and racial issues. just like jesse jackson is
still revered as a reverend and spiritual leader when in fact he's just an
opportunist and pimp.
>
> > i say blacks have problem because too much of their
> >african stupid culture still remains.
>
> Blacks have problems for a lot of different reasons. These issues are
complex
> and cannot be broken down into one cause, one effect. To try and do so
speaks
> much more loudly of your own inadequecies than those who you attempting to
> categorize.
>
I agree. but i was merely responding to spike lee's comment that blacks have
fallen behind in america because the black man's african culture was taken
away. i say this is bull. europeans had their indigenous pagan culture
taken away and looted but you don't see any white guy make excuses of his
failure just because his people no longer wear a viking hornhelmet.
and look at africa today. parts of africa which were governed by indirect
rule where the british allowed the natives to maintain their culture are
doing far far worse than parts of africa which were forcibly modernized and
westernized. so much for the virtues of traditional african culture.
i mean what was its great discoveries or advancements in political science,
economics, philosophy, architecture, communication, literature, etc?
lee and his afrocentrists just have excuses, excuses.
Man...an Ancient race...
--
http://www.angelfire.com/movies/gaza/
"Next2TheMoon" <next2t...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010227174115...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
then spike lee ought to call it even. white artists stole from blacks and
he stole from whites.
the end.
Man...an Ancient race...
country music?
does that make berry a thief? art is about borrowing and playing with
ideas. and everyone was cool about it but with identity politics, PC,
multiculturalism, we have all these accusations of thievery and other
nonsense.
a recent book on george gershwin calls him a thief of black music. since
when is borrowing stealing? art is about reworking already existing forms
and traditions.
is kurosawa a thief of john ford?
this identity politics b.s. is getting really stupid. like the time that
howard university student screamed at paul simon, calling him a thief
because paul simon took some of his inspiration from african music.
in that case, i accuse black afrocentriests of stealing the white man's
toothpaste, soap, written word, western brass instruments, moviemaking,
architecture, electronics, dentistry, sports, and just about everything
else.
just goes to show how the the mixture of aggressive multicultural politics
and the softheaded guilt ridden white liberal cowardliness led to a
poisonous atmosphere of distrust, paranoia, and selfrightousness.
--
http://www.angelfire.com/movies/gaza/
"The Avocado Avenger" <sta...@io.com> wrote in message
news:bu%m6.25753$Yx4.9...@news6.giganews.com...
Bill Warren
>Organizatio
> In the case of 'Back to the Future', Marty has heard the song "Johnny B
>Goode" in his world of the 1980s, and simply plays it again when he's
>transported back to the 1950s.
Not exactly. Yes, he does learn it from Chuck Berry recordings, but in the
50s, he not only does the song, he does Berry's familiar duckwalk dance to it.
And the black entertainer appearing that night, rushes to a phone and calls
Chuck Berry to tell him what he just saw. The implication is that this is how
Berry -- in that time line -- learned to do the duckwalk. It was, though, as
you say, just a time travel gag. Zemeckis & Gale could have had Fox dance like
Elvis, and have some kid in the audience quickly phone Mississippi, but I think
they thought that the sight of Fox doing a duckwalk was funnier than him
shaking his hips.
Man...an Ancient race...
blues guy says he learned everything from the rutles.
--
http://www.angelfire.com/movies/gaza/
"Bill Warren" <bill...@aol.com.exx> wrote in message
news:20010228121321...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
The Avocado Avenger
>>From: sta...@io.com (The Avocado Avenger)
>> In the case of 'Back to the Future', Marty has heard the song "Johnny B
>>Goode" in his world of the 1980s, and simply plays it again when he's
>>transported back to the 1950s.
>Not exactly. Yes, he does learn it from Chuck Berry recordings, but in the
>50s, he not only does the song, he does Berry's familiar duckwalk dance to it.
Wouldn't Marty have seen footage of Berry doing the duckwalk when he was
in the 1980s? I felt he was simply repeating what he'd seen done in
footage of 1950s America, and I don't recall anything to indicate Marty
seemed to "invent" the duckwalk.
>And the black entertainer appearing that night, rushes to a phone and calls
>Chuck Berry to tell him what he just saw. The implication is that this is how
>Berry -- in that time line -- learned to do the duckwalk. It was, though, as
>you say, just a time travel gag. Zemeckis & Gale could have had Fox dance like
>Elvis, and have some kid in the audience quickly phone Mississippi, but I think
>they thought that the sight of Fox doing a duckwalk was funnier than him
>shaking his hips.
I agree with you on that. It's just a goofy time-line paradox. There
are certainly other films where racism is prevalent and obvious, so why
Lee chose the Zemeckis examples is beyond me.
Bill Warren
> Wouldn't Marty have seen footage of Berry doing the duckwalk when he was
>in the 1980s? I felt he was simply repeating what he'd seen done in
>footage of 1950s America, and I don't recall anything to indicate Marty
>seemed to "invent" the duckwalk.
Well, sure, that was exactly the time-bending idea. He got the duckwalk from
Chuck Berry -- and then in a different timeline, inadvertantly GAVE it to Chuck
Berry.
The Avocado Avenger
I think we're saying the same thing, just in two different ways. Either
way, though, it's not the racist cesspool of immorality Lee seems to want
to turn it into.
Mpoconnor7
>does that make berry a thief? art is about borrowing and playing with
>ideas. and everyone was cool about it but with identity politics, PC,
>multiculturalism, we have all these accusations of thievery and other
>nonsense.
"Back to the Future" was a fantasy, a comedic fantasy. What happened in the
movie was pure fiction. I thought it was pretty well done, and I thought the
fantasy aspects of "Forrest Gump" were well done although I thought it got a
little sappy and sentimental.
Spike Lee is a great filmmaker who should keep his mouth shut about social
issues and simply make great movies about social issues. He hasn't done a
great film since "Malcolm X" and he shoots off at the mouth to keep in the
public spotlight. He sees racism everywhere he looks; if a critic does not
like one of his films, that critic is a racist.
>
>a recent book on george gershwin calls him a thief of black music. since
>when is borrowing stealing? art is about reworking already existing forms
>and traditions.
The African Americans go on and on about whites stealing from their music, but
you don't see white musicians whining about Black rappers sampling their music.
They don't call it stealing, they call it sampling.
I never thought of these rappers as musicians because they never wrote a note
of music. All they did was use somebody elses' music.
>
>is kurosawa a thief of john ford?
Is Brian DePalma a thief of Hitchcock?
>
>this identity politics b.s. is getting really stupid. like the time that
>howard university student screamed at paul simon, calling him a thief
>because paul simon took some of his inspiration from african music.
Why aren't they protesting about these white rappers such as Eminem who've
"stolen" rapping from African American people.
>
>in that case, i accuse black afrocentriests of stealing the white man's
>toothpaste, soap, written word, western brass instruments, moviemaking,
>architecture, electronics, dentistry, sports, and just about everything
>else.
>
The Black Afrocentrists assert that Socrates was black (as were many of the
important Greeks), and the Greeks stole mathematics (particularly geometry)
from the Africans although there is absolutely no evidence basic geometric
principles were invented in Africa.
Afrocentrism is Political Correctness at its worst, and alot of pressure is
being applied at the college level to include these mistruths into college
history curriculums. American history textbooks are being written these days
in which the concept of slavery is not even mentioned. Slavery was an
abhorrent practice, but my ancestors weren't even in this country when it
occured yet I'm supposed to pay for these proposed reparations to descendents
of slaves; these reparations could cost as much as ten trillion dollars and
could bankrupt this country. What's next, do we have to pay the Mexicans who
died at the Alamo? Do we have to pay the Confederate soldiers who died at
Union hands during the Civil War? Do we have to pay reparations to the white
Landowners who owned slaves because they lost their livelyhood when slavery was
abolished? Where does this end.
>just goes to show how the the mixture of aggressive multicultural politics
>and the softheaded guilt ridden white liberal cowardliness led to a
>poisonous atmosphere of distrust, paranoia, and selfrightousness.
This touches on the issue of "White Male Shame", which I think means white
Americans (particularly males) should be ashamed because we did not allow an
African American man to invent the airplane and we did not allow a Hispanic
American to invent the Atomic Bomb and we did not allow an African American
female to invent the automobile.
It is a fact (for better or worse) that at least 90 of the 100 most important
inventions of the 20th century were made by white Americans of European
ancestry or white Europeans.
Please note I am not a racist, I love people of all races and colors, but I am
also a stickler for the truth. And the truth is being distorted in an ugly
way.
Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man
"The probability of one person being right increases in a direct porportion to
the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
Kevin FilmNutBoy
> American history textbooks are being written these days
>in which the concept of slavery is not even mentioned.
Can you name one such textbook?
>Slavery was an
>abhorrent practice, but my ancestors weren't even in this country when it
>occured yet I'm supposed to pay for these proposed reparations to descendents
>of slaves; these reparations could cost as much as ten trillion dollars and
>could bankrupt this country.
It scares me when anyone takes the idea of reparations for slavery seriously.
I cannot fathom the thought process of someone who would support the idea. Is
it racist to wonder if this idea has support only as a sad result of
generations conditioned by a "welfare mentality"?
--Kevin
<plonk>
Helen & Bob
Kevin FilmNutBoy wrote:
> It scares me when anyone takes the idea of reparations for slavery seriously.
> I cannot fathom the thought process of someone who would support the idea. Is
> it racist to wonder if this idea has support only as a sad result of
> generations conditioned by a "welfare mentality"?
>
> --Kevin
I have no problems with reparations for slavery. ANY person who can show that
they were slaves before the Emancipation proclamation should be compensated. Now,
their descendants, who were born in freedom, should not receive any compensation
for slavery, as they were not slaves.
Bob
starcro1
> bill...@aol.com.exx (Bill Warren) writes:
> >>From: sta...@io.com (The Avocado Avenger)
>
> >> Wouldn't Marty have seen footage of Berry doing the duckwalk when he
was
> >>in the 1980s? I felt he was simply repeating what he'd seen done in
> >>footage of 1950s America, and I don't recall anything to indicate Marty
> >>seemed to "invent" the duckwalk.
>
> >Well, sure, that was exactly the time-bending idea. He got the duckwalk
from
> >Chuck Berry -- and then in a different timeline, inadvertantly GAVE it to
Chuck
> >Berry.
>
> I think we're saying the same thing, just in two different ways. Either
> way, though, it's not the racist cesspool of immorality Lee seems to want
> to turn it into.
>
I'm a black American who, on the whole, prefers Robert Zemeckis' films to
those of Spike Lee. Does that make me an Uncle Tom? Or does it merely mean
that I prefer films that don't smash you over the head with political
messages?
Spike Lee is one of the greatest filmmakers of his generation.
Unfortunately, he is also a racist who tries to divert attention from his
own bigotry by constantly pointing fingers at others. He uses his
justifiable rage as a black American as an excuse for random public rudeness
that no one - regardless of race - should tolerate from anyone.
steve
On 7-Mar-2001, Helen & Bob <chil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I have no problems with reparations for slavery. ANY person who can show
> that
> they were slaves before the Emancipation proclamation should be
> compensated. Now,
> their descendants, who were born in freedom, should not receive any
> compensation
> for slavery, as they were not slaves.
> Bob
Good point, Bob. And, don't forget that IF any slaves are indentified, then
they must ID those slave traders and/or owners who should pay the
reparations.
Helen & Bob
steve wrote:
Oh, absolutely, Steve. Grind those bastards to dust.
Bob
Howard Brazee
everybody. And everybody who has an ancestor who owned a slave should pay.
So everybody reach into your pocket. Take out all the money and hand half of it
to yourself, and give the other half to a lawyer for handling the suit.
Helen & Bob
Howard Brazee wrote:
Howard, did you finally pass the Bar Exam?????
Bob
Glenworthy@xteleport.com Henry Glenworthy
[snip]
> Spike Lee is one of the greatest filmmakers of his generation.
> Unfortunately, he is also a racist who tries to divert attention from his
> own bigotry by constantly pointing fingers at others. He uses his
> justifiable rage as a black American as an excuse for random public
> rudeness that no one - regardless of race - should tolerate from anyone.
>>>>
If say Robert Zemeckis had said that Spike Lee should be
"shot in the head with a .44 magnum" he would have been
figuratively lynched...yet Spike Lee said that very thing about
Chuck Heston and it barely caused a ripple. That's reverse
racism.
=================================
John Harkness
Of course, Spike was right on that one.
John Harkness
Howard Brazee
> If say Robert Zemeckis had said that Spike Lee should be
> "shot in the head with a .44 magnum" he would have been
> figuratively lynched...yet Spike Lee said that very thing about
> Chuck Heston and it barely caused a ripple. That's reverse
> racism.
Nothing "reverse" about it.
starcro1
"Henry Glenworthy" <Henry Glenw...@xteleport.com> wrote in message
news:vSNp6.359$227.1...@nntp2.onemain.com...
No, it's just simple racism, i.e., judging a person on criteria that have to
do with his/her genetic history and not on character and/or
accomplishments. Racism works the same way, regardless of who practices it.
A racist who is black isn't a different kind of racist than a racist who is
white. The concept of "reverse racism" is, in itself, racist.
starcro1
"John Harkness" <j...@attcanada.ca> wrote in message
news:3aa7af98....@nntp.attcanada.ca...
True enough, but don't encourage him.
Sawfish
Cripes! Was either statement even racist?
On the surface of it Mr. L says that he'd like to see Mr H. shot. Mr. H is
know for his pro stance on gun ownership. I see irony operating here, but
not racism.
OK. The other hypothetical. Mr. Z suggests that Mr L gets shot in the
head. Mr. L is not well-known as a gun advocate, so there's no irony. I
still dont see racism, just ill-will.
I realize that Lee flirts with overtly racist statements, and could easily
be branded a racist; I'm not sure that Zemekis has a history of such
statements. BUt just becuase a guy is a racist and he says he thinks it
would be a good idea to shoot someone of another race (but NOT because
he's of another race) doesn't make that a racist statement, just a callous
one. I guess that gun-control proposals have guys like Lee in mind when
they seek to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible individuals.
So, yeah, Lee's a garden variety racist, but you can't tell it from the
subject statement.
--
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"If we use Occam's Razor, whose razor will *he* use?" --Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SWB
think Z was being racist in BTTF or FG, just thoughtless. Gump has problems
way beyond the Elvis thing. The way it trashes the anti-war movement, for
starters. But that is a subject for another thread which I am sure has been
covered elsewhere.
--
Steven Blackwood
sbla...@execpc.com
"Next2TheMoon" <next2t...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010227080047...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> On the DVD commentary for DO THE RIGHT THING, Spike Lee criticizes fellow
> director Robert Zemeckis. Lee takes Zemeckis to task for his films FORREST
GUMP
> and BACK TO THE FUTURE--not for being bad films, but for their politics.
>
> In FORREST GUMP, a young Forrest is shown to teach Elvis how to dance. In
BACK
> TO THE FUTURE, Zemeckis suggests that Marty McFly (Michael J Fox) was the
> inspiration for Chuck Berry's sound and stage presence. It is, of course,
a
> well-known fact that Elvis (while still a stylistic innovator) was heavily
> influenced by black artists and that, beyond doubt, Chuck Berry was wholly
> original and a true artist. When I saw both GUMP and BTTF, I didn't think
that
> those scenes were anything but cutesy little gags (that made me *want* to
> gag--I hate that cutesy crap).
>
> But to Spike Lee (I hope I am stating his case fairly), these gags aren't
> merely cute. No, from Lee's perspective, these seemingly innocent
revisions of
> history are a slap in the face to black artists. Both Lee and his
> cinematographer (I think) call this outright "bullshit".
>
> I like Spike Lee. A lot. He's provided me with many hours of
entertainment,
> insight and has inspired both quiet and not-so-quiet contemplation. I
don't
> like Robert Zemeckis. At all. His movies make me wanna puke.
>
> But is Spike right? From my white American viewpoint, I've seen both those
> scenes a few times and did not once think, "Zemeckis--what a racist
bastard."
> But I hear what Spike is saying. I just don't think he's right about
Zemeckis'
> intent, intentional or unintentional.
>
> What do you think?
>
> I think a reverse parallel of Spike's accusation is the
> spiritually-elevated-person-of-color who teaches the white folks how to be
> better people (MATRIX, LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE, UNBREAKABLE, GHOST,
AMERICAN
> HISTORY X, etc).
>
> (Remember the old Hollywood cliche about if there is just one black man in
a
> movie, then *he* will be the one killed? It seems now that Hollywood's
newest
> take on that cliche is that if there is just one black person in a movie,
then
> that person will be the one to say something incredibly deep. And, then
for
> good measure, they might kill him off anyway.)
>
> One last thing:
>
> Spike also make it a point to mention at least five times on the DVD that
while
> many, many people have asked him if Mookie did indeed do the right thing,
that
> "to this day, not one person of color has *ever* asked me that question."
I
> mention this because, I too, have wondered if Mookie did do the right
thing.
>
> Spike seems incredulous that Mookie's actions are constantly questioned,
yet
> the cops' killing of Radio Raheem receives very little mention or
attention.
> Lee takes this as white America values property more than human life (at
least
> black human life).
>
> I don't see it like that. I think that there is no debate within the
actions of
> the cops. Of course they didn't do the right thing. A better comparison is
> Sal's destroying Radio Raheem's box. Did Sal do the right thing? Hell no.
Did
> Mookie? Hell no. Did Radio Raheem? Hell no. Did the cops? (Of course)
double
> hell no.
>
> Again, what do you think?
>
starcro1
"Sawfish" <m...@q7.com> wrote in message news:98423951...@q7.q7.com...
Henry called it "reverse racism." May argument is that the concept of
"reverse racism" is founded on the fallacy that racism has a different moral
flavor when practiced by those of another race. Which in itself is racism.
If Henry didn't mean the words he used, he should not have used those
words. This has nothing to do with the attitudes of Spike Lee, Charlton
Heston or society at large. This is about Henry and what he wrote. And if he
wants to clarify his statement, I suggest you let *him* do it.
Sawfish
OK.
I was bored on a Sat afternoon and was responding to the purported
statements. You were discussing other aspects of the issue. So be it.
--
--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If there's one thing I can't stand, it's intolerance."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JSTONE9352
>> Unfortunately, he is also a racist who tries to divert attention from his
>> own bigotry by constantly pointing fingers at others.
Part of his problem is that his dad married
a white woman a few years ago and that
upset Spike. Father and son are no
longer on speaking terms from what I
understand.