What you mean "we", Kemosabe?
Joe Gillis
Is "KEMOSABE" Racist? ("[Canadian] Highest court asked to rule on old Lone
Ranger term")
CBC News
Highest court asked to rule on old Lone Ranger term Last Updated Wed, 22 Dec
2004 22:07:01 EST
HALIFAX - The Supreme Court of Canada is being asked to hear arguments on
whether the word "kemosabe" is racist to native people.
The request comes from the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, which is
dealing with a grievance dating back to 1999. ''We think it's time to … have
some ground rules so people know what's permissible and what isn't.' – human
rights lawyer
Dorothy Kateri Moore, a Mi'kmaq woman working at a sports store in Sydney,
N.S., had complained that her boss, Trevor Miller, referred to her and other
workers as "kemosabe" – the term used by the 1950s TV character Tonto, the
Lone Ranger's sidekick, to describe the masked cowboy.
Moore said Miller told her the word meant "friend." But she claimed it was a
racial slur and that its repeated use led to a poisoned work environment.
Last February, a human rights board of inquiry ruled Moore was not
discriminated against because she hadn't shown she was offended by the word,
nor did she ask her boss to stop using it.
The Nova Scotia Court of Appeal upheld that ruling in October, saying Moore had
not shown the term was "notoriously offensive."
For the first time in its 37-year history, the commission has asked the Supreme
Court of Canada to appeal a decision of the province's Court of Appeal.
Commission lawyers say they will argue employees were afraid to speak up to
their employer and they want the Supreme Court to draw the line on what
language is acceptable in the workplace.
"The idea that there are some words that are notoriously offensive and some
that aren't, and the burden on the employee shifts depending on that, really
creates a lot of confusion in the workplace," said commission lawyer Michael
Wood. Actors Jay Silverheels as Tonto, and Clayton Moore in the title role of
"The Lone Ranger"(AP photo)
"We think it's time to clarify that and have some ground rules so people know
what's permissible and what isn't."
During the inquiry hearings, several members of the Mi'kmaq community testified
that "kemosabe" was a racial slur, although others said they were not offended
by it.
The board of inquiry spent one day looking at old Lone Ranger shows, eventually
concluding that the term was never used in a derogatory way and that Tonto and
the Lone Ranger treated each other with respect.
The Supreme Court has yet to decide if it will hear the appeal.
=================================================
"I don't mind lying, but I HATE inaccuracy." -- Samuel Butler
Kingo Gondo
ANIM8Rfsk
<< Dorothy Kateri Moore, a Mi'kmaq woman working at a sports store in Sydney,
N.S., had complained that her boss, Trevor Miller, referred to her and other
workers as "kemosabe" – the term used by the 1950s TV character Tonto, the
Lone Ranger's sidekick, to describe the masked cowboy.
Moore said Miller told her the word meant "friend." But she claimed it was a
racial slur >>
Let's see. It was a word used by an Indian as a compliment to his White
friend. And she interprets this as a slur how exactly?
<< several members of the Mi'kmaq community testified
that "kemosabe" was a racial slur, >>
All of them were ordered to have common sense bitch slapped into them.
_______________________________________
Something you Democrats would never understand.
Americans, we're homesteaders.
We want a safe home.
Keep the money we make.
And shoot bad guys.
And save the life of someone you love.
--Denny Crane
Johnn...@webtv.net
about indians.. They hate to be labled as such (even if they think they
are being labled), unless there's money or land involved. Then you see
people coming out of the woodwork claiming to have native blood. ..Jon
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
news:20041223230129...@mb-m01.aol.com...
> http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/22/Kemosabe-Slur.041222.html
>
> Is "KEMOSABE" Racist? ("[Canadian] Highest court asked to rule on old Lone
> Ranger term")
>
> CBC News
>
> Highest court asked to rule on old Lone Ranger term Last Updated Wed, 22
> Dec
> 2004 22:07:01 EST
>
> HALIFAX - The Supreme Court of Canada is being asked to hear arguments on
> whether the word "kemosabe" is racist to native people.
[deletion]
From the website "The Lone Ranger - a Celebration"
by Jennifer Stewart (http://www.write101.com/loneranger.htm ):
'Dr. Goddard, of the Smithsonian Institution, was reported as believing that
Kemo Sabe was from the Tewa dialect. He supported his contention by calling
on the "Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians" which appeared in the 29th
Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1916). It seems that in
Tewa, "Apache" equates to Sabe and "friend" to Kema.
'A scholar from the University of California at Berkley thought that Kemo
Sabe came from the Yavapai, a dialect spoken in Arizona and meant "one who
is white," since the Ranger always wore a white shirt and trousers in the
earliest publicity photos. The Yavapai term is "kinmasaba" or "kinmasabeh"
'Jim Jewell, who directed "The Lone Ranger" until 1938 said he'd lifted the
term from the name of a boys' camp at Mullet Lake just south of Mackinac,
Michigan called Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee. The camp had been established in 1911
by Jewell's father-in-law, Charles Yeager, and operated until about 1940.
Translation of kee-mo sah-bee, according to Jewell was "trusty scout."
'According to Rob Malouf, a grad student in linguistics at Stanford, there's
another possibility: "According to John Nichols' Concise Dictionary of
Minnesota Ojibwe, the Ojibwe word `giimoozaabi' means `to peek' (it could
also mean `he peeks' or `he who peeks'). Rob continued: "There are several
words with the same prefix ["giimooj," secretly] meaning things like `to
sneak up on someone'.... It is quite plausible that `giimoozaabi' means
something like `scout'.... `Giimoozaabi' is pronounced pretty much the same
as `kemosabe' and would have been spelled `Kee Moh Sah Bee' at the turn of
the century."
'In his book of humour and observation, noted columnist James Smart observes
that the New York Public Library defines "Kemo Sabe" as Soggy Shrub. His
entertaining collection is appropriately titled "Soggy Shrub Rides Again and
other improbabilities."
'An interesting side light comes from the son of Fran Striker, "It is
usually assumed that Kemo Sabe is how the Ranger refers to Tonto. However,
in many of the early radio broadcasts, the Ranger calls Tonto "Kemo Sabe"
AND Tonto also calls the Ranger "Kemo Sabe".
'Another suggestion has been that Tonto, (whose name means "stupid"
according to some interpretations) responded by calling the Lone Ranger "qui
no sabe" which roughly translates from Spanish as "he who knows nothing" or
"clueless.
'One of Gary Larson's Far Side cartoons shows the Lone Ranger looking in an
Indian dictionary and discovering that kemosabe is "an Apache expression for
a horse's rear end." '
--
Frank in Seattle
___________
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"
David Matthews
an
> Indian dictionary and discovering that kemosabe is "an Apache expression
for
> a horse's rear end." '
>
> --
> Frank in Seattle
>
"There's a horse's ass for every light on Broadway"
David Merrick
(Sorry - Don't know why but I just had to slip that in).
Dave in Toronto
George Peatty
>HALIFAX - The Supreme Court of Canada is being asked to hear arguments on
>whether the word "kemosabe" is racist to native people.
Don't these people have anything better to do? This is absurd ..
While I neither know nor care whether it's okay to call someone kemosabe,
there is no doubt in my mind that it is okay for Tonto to call the Ranger
kemosabe.
If the perp was told it bothered the hearer and persisted, that's a
different issue, but there is nothing inherently racist in the word, or any
of the meanings it has come to embody ..
Stephen Cooke
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004, George Peatty wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2004 04:01:29 GMT, cinema...@aol.comedy (Joe Gillis) wrote:
>
> >HALIFAX - The Supreme Court of Canada is being asked to hear arguments on
> >whether the word "kemosabe" is racist to native people.
>
> Don't these people have anything better to do? This is absurd ..
>
> While I neither know nor care whether it's okay to call someone kemosabe,
> there is no doubt in my mind that it is okay for Tonto to call the Ranger
> kemosabe.
It's like the "N" word. A white person uses it--not that I'm suggesting
they should--and it's terribly offensive. A hip-hop artist spells it with
an "a" and a "z" and it's cool street lingo that helps them make
millions.
I'm thinking this woman was perceiving the term the way a black person
might react to being called Little Black Sambo. The original source of the
term might not be offensive--in the story, Sambo is a brave and
resourceful little boy who takes down a bunch of tigers--but for some
reason its application turns out to be.
swac
ANIM8Rfsk
<< The original source of the
term might not be offensive--in the story, Sambo is a brave and
resourceful little boy who takes down a bunch of tigers--but for some
reason its application turns out to be. >>
Only if they delude themselves into thinking it is. What's next, he gives her
'employee of the month' and she claims THAT's a racial slur?
Stephen Cooke
On 26 Dec 2004, ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> << From: Stephen Cooke am...@chebucto.ns.ca >>
>
>
> << The original source of the
> term might not be offensive--in the story, Sambo is a brave and
> resourceful little boy who takes down a bunch of tigers--but for some
> reason its application turns out to be. >>
>
> Only if they delude themselves into thinking it is. What's next, he gives her
> 'employee of the month' and she claims THAT's a racial slur?
How about Employee of the Summerspring Winterfall?
swac
Or was that Winterspring Summerfall?
Glitter Ninja
>Let's see. It was a word used by an Indian as a compliment to his White
>friend. And she interprets this as a slur how exactly?
I have no idea what, if anything, "kemosabe" means. However, "Tonto"
means "idiot" in Spanish. So I don't know if we can just all assume that
the Lone Ranger series used nice polite terms that weren't offensive in
some way.
Stacia
James Neibaur
sta...@xmission.com wrote on 12/27/04 11:09 PM:
> I have no idea what, if anything, "kemosabe" means
I was always told it meant "trusted scout."
JN
Bill Anderson
The Lone Ranger and Tonto rode the trail,
Catchin' outlaws and puttin' them in jail;
But the Ranger shot old Tonto 'cause it seems,
He found out what Kemosabe means.
Waterloo -- Homer and Jethro
--
Bill Anderson
I am the Mighty Favog
Lagniappe:
Uncle Job the other day was found,
In a bar'l of moonshine where he'd drowned;
And they'll lay him in his last resting place,
Soon as they can wipe the smile off his face.
Waterloo, Waterloo,
Where will you meet your Waterloo?
Uncle Job he made a goof,
Then he wound up a hundred proof,
Everybody has to meet his Waterloo.
James Neibaur
billand...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/27/04 11:43 PM:
> The Lone Ranger and Tonto rode the trail,
> Catchin' outlaws and puttin' them in jail;
> But the Ranger shot old Tonto 'cause it seems,
> He found out what Kemosabe means.
>
> Waterloo -- Homer and Jethro
LOL, that sure takes me back.
Are either Homer or Jethro still living?
JN
Bill Anderson
Google is our friend:
Homer "Henry D. Haynes" 7/27/20 - 8/7/71
Jethro "Kenneth C. Burns" 3/10/20 - 2/4/89
Actually they turn out to be younger than I would've guessed.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< I have no idea what, if anything, "kemosabe" means. >>
It was the name of a summer camp. A loose translation (as the author at the
time understood it) was 'trusty scout' -- for which there is some evidence.
In the old Lone Ranger series, what did "kemosabe" mean?
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_061.html
<< So I don't know if we can just all assume that the Lone Ranger series used
nice polite terms that weren't offensive in some way. >>
We can assume that the term in question was a nice polite term.
George Peatty
And, you are right .. according to one source:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_061.html
As for the meaning of the name Tonto, that's a little less clear. Yes, the
word is, indeed, Spanish for fool. While we do not know Tonto's heritage
beyond that he was Native American, Mr. Silverheels was a Canadian Mohawk.
I've always chosen to believe that Tonto's ethnicity was the same. Which
begs two questions: what's a Canadian Mohawk doing with a Spanish name,
nickname? And, what's he doing in Texas when the Rangers were ambushed by
Butch Cavendish?
George Peatty
Ninja) wrote:
> I have no idea what, if anything, "kemosabe" means. However, "Tonto"
>means "idiot" in Spanish. So I don't know if we can just all assume that
>the Lone Ranger series used nice polite terms that weren't offensive in
>some way.
When you understand the backstory that grew up around the Ranger, it becomes
pretty clear that no offense was intended toward anyone.
David Matthews
> As for the meaning of the name Tonto, that's a little less clear. Yes,
the
> word is, indeed, Spanish for fool. While we do not know Tonto's heritage
> beyond that he was Native American, Mr. Silverheels was a Canadian
Mohawk.
> I've always chosen to believe that Tonto's ethnicity was the same.
I saw Silverheels on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson. He was a good
guest. Very amusing. Naturally with him being a Canadian they had a lot of
fun with the words "Tonto" and "Toronto". Silverheels played the Tonto
character in a sketch with Carson asking him dumb questions like "What were
the benefits of working with the Lone Ranger?" Tonto's reply "He let me
look under the mask once. No big deal."
Dave in Toronto
Jim Beaver
"George Peatty" <pttyg4...@copper.net> wrote in message
news:hgc3t05ofd24forvk...@4ax.com...
Every reference I've ever seen within the canon places Tonto as a
Pottawatomie.
Silverheels's own tribal background had nothing to do with his character's.
If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
really in trouble. Silverheels's tribal ethnicity had nothing to do with
whether Tonto was a Pottawatomie, any more than it had to do with his
Geronimo (in Broken Arrow, etc.) being an Apache. I'm Cherokee, but that
sure doesn't mean everybody I've ever played has been Cherokee.
Jim Beaver
George Peatty
wrote:
[snip]
>Every reference I've ever seen within the canon places Tonto as a
>Pottawatomie.
>
>Silverheels's own tribal background had nothing to do with his character's.
>If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
>really in trouble. Silverheels's tribal ethnicity had nothing to do with
>whether Tonto was a Pottawatomie, any more than it had to do with his
>Geronimo (in Broken Arrow, etc.) being an Apache. I'm Cherokee, but that
>sure doesn't mean everybody I've ever played has been Cherokee.
I'd be interested to know your source. I am a big fan of the Ranger, and
never heard Tonto's ethnicity specified till I read your post. Accepting
your statements still raises interesting questions. Potawatomis (I think
either spelling is acceptable) are native to Michigan and Wisconsin. We
have a group of the Pokagon Band trying to start a gambling casino in SW
Michigan today, and I've seen bands of them perform at local summer
activities. They range as far north as Canada, south to Oklahoma (I
wouldn't be surprised if this was government relocation), and west to
Kansas, according to Wikipedia. So, how does a Potawatomi get to Texas and
with a Spanish name?
David Matthews
been Cherokee.
>
> Jim Beaver
>
>
>
If it had been I guess you and James Garner would have had to flip a coin
to see who got the part :-)
Dave in Toronto
Jim Beaver
My earliest notice was in a Lone Ranger comic book, but I've seen it since
occasionally. I'm sorry I can't give a specific citation from memory, but
here's a website that seems pretty clear on the issue:
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/l/lonerang.htm And considering the Lone
Ranger was invented in Michigan by a Michigander, it's not completely
astonishing that a tribe with some roots in Michigan ended up being the
choice for Tonto's tribe. In this case and in the case of Tonto's "Spanish"
name, I suspect that not a great deal of academically sound research went
into either choice. (I have no direct knowledge either way.) And finally,
just because "tonto" means "stupid" in Spanish doesn't mean that's what it
means in Potowatomie (or whatever tribal lingo pertains.) "Baka" means
"stupid" in Japanese, but it means something completely unrelated in
Cameroon.
Here's one quote from that website: "Tonto's nickname for his friend, "Kemo
Sabe", has been said to be a word from the language of the Potowatomie
Indians of the Michigan area, supplied to the production by Jim Jewell, a
producer of the original radio show. This allegedly came from a camp for
boys called Camp Kee-mo-sah-bee, which he was told translated as "Trusted
Scout" (though the show also sometimes claimed it meant "Faithful Friend").
However Jewell spoke no native tongues, so he couldn't know for sure what it
really meant, leading to a number of interesting theories. As for Tonto, Jim
Jewell was told that in Potowatomie the name translates as "Wild One".
Whether or not this is accurate, what is certain is that "tonto" is Spanish
for "fool"."
Other supporting websites include
http://www.metropoliscomics.com/Feature%20Archives/Lone-Ranger.html ,
http://www.endeavorcomics.com/largent/ranger/faq.html In fact, practically
every website I googled dealt both with the Potowatomies and the Tonto
information, though in much more depth than I remembered.
Jim Beaver
Glitter Ninja
>Every reference I've ever seen within the canon places Tonto as a
>Pottawatomie.
The character, you mean? That agrees with what I've heard; I live near
the Kansas Pottawatomi nation (reservation) and it's always been "common
knowledge" that the character of Tonto was supposed to be Pottawatomi.
The Native Americans who mention it never seem particularly happy about
it.
>If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
>really in trouble.
Ain't that the truth. Like Chris Rock said, when was the last time you
saw a Native American family chillin' at a Red Lobster?
>Geronimo (in Broken Arrow, etc.) being an Apache. I'm Cherokee, but that
>sure doesn't mean everybody I've ever played has been Cherokee.
I'm a teeny bit Cherokee, too. Unfortunately, that's about all that's
left of the Cherokee.
Stacia
Glitter Ninja
>> wouldn't be surprised if this was government relocation), and west to
>> Kansas, according to Wikipedia.
Yes, I'm from Kansas and there's a large Potawatomi reservation nearby.
I honestly don't know if the tribe is indigenous or if they migrated
(forcibly or not).
>choice for Tonto's tribe. In this case and in the case of Tonto's "Spanish"
>name, I suspect that not a great deal of academically sound research went
>into either choice. (I have no direct knowledge either way.) And finally,
>just because "tonto" means "stupid" in Spanish doesn't mean that's what it
>means in Potowatomie (or whatever tribal lingo pertains.)
I don't think it's a word in Potawatomi. Here's what the Straight Dope
has to say on "kemosabe" and "tonto", which matches what Jim found:
"After further consultation with Indian language expert Laura
Buszard-Welcher, we've established that Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee was in an area
inhabited by the Ottawa, who spoke a dialect of Ojibwe with the same word
giimoozaabi. There were also Potawatomi in the region who spoke a closely
related language with a similar word. So while the "trusty" part may have
been hype, kemosabe probably really was a Native American term for
"scout."
How about Tonto? According to Jim Jewell, there was an Indian storyteller
at Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee who would get rowdy when drunk, leading the other
Indians to call him "tonto." The commonly told story is that this is
Potawatomi for "wild one." Laura Buszard-Welcher, who knows about these
things, says not so.
Alternative theories are that tonto is Spanish for
"fool," or that LR scriptwriter Fran Striker had transmuted the name of a
character in an earlier serial, Gobo."
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_061.html
Stacia
ANIM8Rfsk
<< If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
really in trouble. >>
We almost got there maybe a decade ago, when there was a groundswell insisting
that very thing. Also that only deaf actors could play deaf charcters, etc.
(one wonders what you do with a character who loses or regains his hearing,
sight, etc., halfway through the script). Luckily that notion seems to have
died down.
Brent McKee
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20041229112801...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> << From: "Jim Beaver" jumb...@prodigy.spam >>
>
>
> << If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
> really in trouble. >>
>
> We almost got there maybe a decade ago, when there was a groundswell
> insisting
> that very thing. Also that only deaf actors could play deaf charcters,
> etc.
> (one wonders what you do with a character who loses or regains his
> hearing,
> sight, etc., halfway through the script). Luckily that notion seems to
> have
> died down.
There was even a backlash when Jennifer Lopez was chosen to play Selena in
the movie of the same name. Selena was a Tejana (Texan of Mexican origin)
and Lopez is of Puerto Rican ancestry. She wasn't the "right" kind of
Hispanic American for Tejanos.
--
Brent McKee http://brentmckee.blogspot.com/
To reply by email, please remove the capital letters (S and N) from
the email address
"If we cease to judge this world, we may find ourselves, very quickly,
in one which is infinitely worse."
- Margaret Atwood
"Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more
constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of
openness to novelty. "
- Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002)
David Matthews
> << If we ever get to the place where only Mohawks can play Mohawks, we're
> really in trouble. >>
>
> We almost got there maybe a decade ago, when there was a groundswell
insisting
> that very thing. Also that only deaf actors could play deaf charcters,
etc.
> (one wonders what you do with a character who loses or regains his
hearing,
> sight, etc., halfway through the script). Luckily that notion seems to
have
> died down.
Lucky indeed; we would have lost some fine performances.
Just wondering - was there much indignation when Vivian Leigh was chosen as
Scarlett O'Hara? - all I heard was that Southerners breathed a sigh of
relief and said "Thank God it wasn't a Yankee".
(Perhaps as a sop pre publicity for the film stressed that Leigh's ancestry
was the same as Scarlett's - French/Irish - It wasn't true but later in her
life Vivian seemed to start believing it herself).
Dave in Toronto.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
two things. One is Zane Grey's 1926 novel "Under the Tonto Rim". The other
is the enormous Tonto National Forest in Arizona, covering some 3 million
acres.
David
>Just wondering - was there much indignation when Vivian Leigh was chosen as
>Scarlett O'Hara? - all I heard was that Southerners breathed a sigh of
>relief and said "Thank God it wasn't a Yankee".
Gallup: 35% approved, 16% disapproved, 20% didn't care & 29% hadn't
heard. In America, there were isolated pockets of bitching from social
groups & people like Louella Parsons. But Leigh herself considered the
sniping only fair -- she didn't like Hollywood or the country in
general ("I do not think there is anything nice about America except
the football, & the politeness of men in garages...").
It was the British who were a lot more skeptical about her being given
the role. They knew a lot more about her; she was considered somewhat
trampy in some quarters & a bit of a theatrical parvenu. Students saw
her in stage works like "Richard II" & the effect must have been
something like watching Reese Witherspoon play Saint Joan.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< The other
is the enormous Tonto National Forest in Arizona, covering some 3 million
acres. >>
And I'm sure some misinformed whiner is going to get THAT name changed sooner
or later too.
Jim Beaver
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
Have you seen it? It's an incredibly stupid national forest. Can't tie its
own shoelaces.
Jim Beaver
Tony
book should have been called "The Last of the Turtle Clan" as there still
are the remnants of other Mohican clans in the northeast.
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
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A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
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"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20041229112801...@mb-m02.aol.com...
Chuck Kopsho
Look, I'm part indian myself, and I sure ain't gonna get my Fruit of
the Looms in a bunch over the use of the word, "Kemosabe".
Cheers,
Chuck Kopsho
Ocanside, California