New thoughts on "It's a Wonderful Life"
steve
Gowar: IAWL has some twisted moral messages. Perhaps the most disturbing is
the treatment of Mr. Gowar, the pharmacist. He's seen drinking heavily (and
smoking) in his lab. Having nearly poisoned someone, Gowar flies into a
drunken rage and is abusive to young George. George promises never to tell
a sole about the irresponsible behavior and near tragedy,and we're supposed
to credit George for his wonderful behavior...not simply that he prevents
the tragedy (an indisputable good), but (per a line of dialog between
Clarence and God or Joseph) for keeping a secret that should never have been
kept!
Loan: During the run on the bank, one customer demands the full balance of
his account. "That closes my account." he asserts, but George responds
"Your account's still open. That's a loan." But...who said this guy wants
a loan? If I made a withdrawal from my bank and they booked it as a loan,
I'd be furious. Why are we supposed to credit this forced loan treatment as
something positive?
Silly dialog: When George returns home after discovering Uncle Billy's
carelessness, his petulent outbursts are poorly constructed. "Why do we
have to have all these kids?" Dumb.
Second Class: Clarence describes his position as "Angel s2", then offers the
clarification "Angel Second Class". How does "s2" translate into "Second
Class"?
Dont Ask Dont Tell: Why does Clarence insist that he "isnt supposed to tell"
the never-born George that Mary is a spinster? He's told about his dead
brother, thousands of dead soldiers on the troop transport, his mother
turned hard and running a boarding house, etc., yet, for literally untold
reasons, Clarence isnt supposed to tell George that Mary is (gasp) an
unmarried librarian. What?
Editing: Perhaps it's just a matter of restoration, but the scene where
Uncle Billy drops the money in Potter's lap has half a dozen abrupt cuts
(jump cuts, in essence). I noticed one or two other scenes with a jump cut.
Has some footage been lost, or was the film originally edited this way?
The dialog flows naturally across the cuts, if that suggests anything.
FYI: We own the version show on the IMDB page:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038650/
steve
--
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man but
bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Ennui Worricone
> Things that bug me when I watch IAWL (which we do every year at this time).
>
> Gowar: IAWL has some twisted moral messages. Perhaps the most disturbing is
> the treatment of Mr. Gowar, the pharmacist. He's seen drinking heavily (and
> smoking) in his lab. Having nearly poisoned someone, Gowar flies into a
> drunken rage and is abusive to young George. George promises never to tell
> a sole about the irresponsible behavior and near tragedy,and we're supposed
> to credit George for his wonderful behavior...not simply that he prevents
> the tragedy (an indisputable good), but (per a line of dialog between
> Clarence and God or Joseph) for keeping a secret that should never have been
> kept!
He was a kid, and it's scouts honor sort of thing.
>
> Loan: During the run on the bank, one customer demands the full balance of
> his account. "That closes my account." he asserts, but George responds
> "Your account's still open. That's a loan." But...who said this guy wants
> a loan? If I made a withdrawal from my bank and they booked it as a loan,
> I'd be furious. Why are we supposed to credit this forced loan treatment as
> something positive?
Good marketing. George wants to show himself to be a good guy and he
wants the guy to come back.
>
> Silly dialog: When George returns home after discovering Uncle Billy's
> carelessness, his petulent outbursts are poorly constructed. "Why do we
> have to have all these kids?" Dumb.
Hurtful but people act like this when depressed. They take it out on
others.
And speaking of petulant comments...
>
> Second Class: Clarence describes his position as "Angel s2", then offers the
> clarification "Angel Second Class". How does "s2" translate into "Second
> Class"?
He meant Ass2. He was gay.
>
> Dont Ask Dont Tell: Why does Clarence insist that he "isnt supposed to tell"
> the never-born George that Mary is a spinster? He's told about his dead
> brother, thousands of dead soldiers on the troop transport, his mother
> turned hard and running a boarding house, etc., yet, for literally untold
> reasons, Clarence isnt supposed to tell George that Mary is (gasp) an
> unmarried librarian. What?
Mind trick. Clarence has been waiting to tell this but he saved it for
last for Mary is what matters most to George.
A man can take a lot of bad stuff but losing his ho sho be hurting.
It's what finally turns George around.
What kills me is why Mary is a spinster librarian. If she had never
met George, she would have been happy to marry Sam Wainwrigh and be a
rich woman.
>
> Editing: Perhaps it's just a matter of restoration, but the scene where
> Uncle Billy drops the money in Potter's lap has half a dozen abrupt cuts
> (jump cuts, in essence). I noticed one or two other scenes with a jump cut.
> Has some footage been lost, or was the film originally edited this way?
> The dialog flows naturally across the cuts, if that suggests anything.
>
> FYI: We own the version show on the IMDB page:
ahhh, you have no eyes.
Ennui Worricone
1. I wonder if Once Upon a Time in America drew on it. Both are non-
linear narratives. Noodles has his pipe dreams and George has his
hallucination. George is both Noodle like and Max like. A man who
wants to conquer the world but is 'imprisoned' in one place all his
life. Well, at least he got the girl, which Noodles didn't.
2. It's a Wonderful Life is also like the Wizard of Oz. Both Dorothy
and George want out of their humdrum place and enter fantasy land, and
both realize that there is no place like Kansas or Bedford Falls.
3. It's a Wonderful Life is like Christmas Carol reversed. In CC, bad
Scrooge is visited and haunted by ghosts and comes to realize the
magic of Christmas and charity. In IAWL, it's as if the ghosts visit
and haunt the good George Bailey to remind him that he's been a
wonderful man all his life. In contrast, Potter, the scrooge of the
movie, is left alone by ghosts and angels since he's too hopeless.
He's too much like Stewe and Gongrinch(who whines about movie end
credits that honor all the crew that worked on the film. Elitist
pigger that he is,he'd rather that they go unmentioned.)
Movie Buff
"steve" <st...@steve.com> wrote in message
news:elNQo.7956$111....@newsfe12.iad...
> Things that bug me when I watch IAWL (which we do every year at this time).
IAWL is, to me, over-rated, mawkishly sentimental drivel.
I simply can not tolerate Jimmy Stewart in any of his roles.
One can not help but sympathize with Old Man Potter's attempts to bring Stewart
to ruin!
Ennui Worricone
May Rudolph gore your ass, mofo.
Howard Brazee
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>IAWL is, to me, over-rated, mawkishly sentimental drivel.
>I simply can not tolerate Jimmy Stewart in any of his roles.
>One can not help but sympathize with Old Man Potter's attempts to bring Stewart
>to ruin!
Who would you have preferred in _Harvey_?
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
quote...@yahoo.com
>
James Agee was bugged, too:
http://www.thenation.com/article/its-wonderful-life
tomcervo
You know, it was just a goofy old holiday movie that turned up around
Christmas, and if there wasn't a game on, you watched while the
triptofan (sp) filtered through your system after the big eat. AND it
had Gloria Grahame, and Donna Reed, and the rich girl Harry
married . . . and Donna Reed all made up as the dried up spinster was
still hotter than hell.
And it was fun after a few viewings to speculate on life in
Potterville, A Hell of a Place to Raise Your Kids.
Then it turned into the Great Christmas Movie That Must Be Watched: A
127 minute movie in a three hour time slot, and now we're all sick of
it.
Stone me
"tomcervo" <paradi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dc908bcb-8265-4b2b...@30g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's a melodrama, oversentimental at that, but it has some elements that
people must like, rather like some popular tv soaps.
Stewart wants to See The World but is frustrated by his tremendous sense
of duty and responsibility to his SmallTown community.
Here is a possibility, since it may allow those who don't have a settled
SmallTown life, to fantasize and idealize on those communities.
The citizen of Modern Western Society has such a conflict. Where would
society be without those great people who serve their nation/city/community?
Perhaps it's about belief in individual rights and freedoms, but that
individual responsibility, social cooperation and mutual respect being just
as important.(Paraphrased)
Stone me.
Halmyre
> What kills me is why Mary is a spinster librarian. If she had never
> met George, she would have been happy to marry Sam Wainwrigh and be a
> rich woman.
>
Didn't George help to make Sam Wainwright rich, though?
--
Halmyre
Movie Buff
"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:ung7h61b1okc3bs3v...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:24:24 -0500, "Movie Buff"
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>IAWL is, to me, over-rated, mawkishly sentimental drivel.
>>I simply can not tolerate Jimmy Stewart in any of his roles.
>>One can not help but sympathize with Old Man Potter's attempts to bring
>>Stewart
>>to ruin!
>
> Who would you have preferred in _Harvey_?
Coop
S D
and financial insiders who cause runs on banks ... from what I've seen
this trash sucks rocks. Noel
James Poe
Re: New thoughts on "It's a Wonderful Life"
Group: rec.arts.movies.past-films Date: Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 6:59pm
(CST-2) From: paradi...@gmail.com (tomcervo)
than hell.
And it was fun after a few viewings to speculate on life in Potterville,
A Hell of a Place to Raise Your Kids.
Then it turned into the Great Christmas Movie That Must Be Watched: A
127 minute movie in a three hour time slot, and now we're all sick of
it.
El Klauso
EK: Well...ur...yes...
EW 3. It's a Wonderful Life is like Christmas Carol reversed.
EK: This observation actually does hold some weight, not only in the
Christmas Past, Present and possible Future structure of IAWL, but
also in the fact that the casting of the film is rooted in the popular
culture of the time. One of the radio highlights of nearly every
Christmas season in the 1930's and '40's was Lionel Barrymore's
rendition of Scrooge - in one form or another.(He even took it into
the recording studio for preservation on 78 rpm discs.) To the movie-
going public of 1946, seeing Barrymore in a seasonal film as an un-
reformed Scrooge type would carry heavy overtones of the Dickens tale.
Brad Filippone
that he build the factory in Bedford Falls rather than Rochester.
Brad
Brad Filippone
> Things that bug me when I watch IAWL (which we do every year at this time).
>
> Gowar: IAWL has some twisted moral messages. Perhaps the most disturbing is
> the treatment of Mr. Gowar, the pharmacist. He's seen drinking heavily (and
> smoking) in his lab. Having nearly poisoned someone, Gowar flies into a
> drunken rage and is abusive to young George. George promises never to tell
> a sole about the irresponsible behavior and near tragedy,and we're supposed
> to credit George for his wonderful behavior...not simply that he prevents
> the tragedy (an indisputable good), but (per a line of dialog between
> Clarence and God or Joseph) for keeping a secret that should never have been
> kept!
>
found out about the death of his son, and therefore wasn't in his
right mind. George realized this and couldn't bring himself to
deliver the pills. Also, consider that in those days it was
considered all right to hit another person's boy if he was up to
mischief. It seems horrible today, but it was true then. And Gower
thought George had been up to no good in not following instructions.
So George was perfectly right to not tell anyone about the pills. Why
destroy a man because of one bad day?
Whenever we see Gower in the rest of the movie (besides in the George-
doesn't-exist universe) he behaves as an upstanding gentleman. These
appearences are brief, it's true. I recall adult George thanking him
for the suitcase, when he congratulates George on his brother winning
the Medal of Honor, and in the general celebrations of the final
scene.
The only things I wonder about when I watch the movie every year are
these? What's the bit with the cigarette lighter ("I wish I had a
million dollars. Hot dog!!!!"). I assume it's some tradition of the
period, but not knowing the tradition, I don't understand it.
And why wouldn't Mary have married Sam if George didn't exist?
Brad
Movie Buff
"Brad Filippone" <Brad_Fi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:af599812-27e7-4321...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The striking of another person's child was definitely not permissable in polite
society, even at that time.
George should have reported Gower to the authorities, not only for the poisoned
capsules but for assault and battery as well.
If one is to accept you rationalizations about the death of a loved one, then
the streets would be littered with an increasing amount of corpses, murdered by
grieving relatives. Hardly conducive to a well ordered society.
Brad Filippone
> "Brad Filippone" <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> The striking of another person's child was definitely not permissable in polite
> society, even at that time.
> George should have reported Gower to the authorities, not only for the poisoned
> capsules but for assault and battery as well.
> If one is to accept you rationalizations about the death of a loved one, then
> the streets would be littered with an increasing amount of corpses, murdered by
> grieving relatives. Hardly conducive to a well ordered society.
It may not have been widespread or, but people did hit other people's
children in those days. I started school in 1969. The strap was used
then by the principal, and THAT was considered acceptable. While it
was never used on me, I do recall my arm being roughly shaken by the
principal in the second grade when I wondered to close to the busy by
the school.
It's a Wonderful Life was made in 1946, and that scene takes place
even earlier, in 1919. Yes, today it is unheard of to hit someone
else's kid and not be arrested. But such was not always the case.
I'm not saying there weren't cases when an angry parent did want some
vengeance from the adult in question, but it is not likely that Mr.
Gower would be arrested for hitting George. For the poisoning of the
kid, if it had happened, yes, though I suspect the sentence would have
been light in lieu of his state of mind that day.
That being said, today I had my annual viewing of the movie, and I
still cringe (just like young Mary actually) when he hits him. I know
it all turns out well, but it's still a painful moment to watch.
Brad
El Klauso
watch.
EK: The key to the film - It is not all spun sugar, but it is a tale
of great frustration, pain and bitterness dressed up with a bit of
cotton candy. Those who see only the sunny bookends are missing the
meat of the matter.
Bill Anderson
> Things that bug me when I watch IAWL (which we do every year at this time).
>
> Gowar: IAWL has some twisted moral messages. Perhaps the most disturbing is
> the treatment of Mr. Gowar, the pharmacist. He's seen drinking heavily (and
> smoking) in his lab. Having nearly poisoned someone, Gowar flies into a
> drunken rage and is abusive to young George. George promises never to tell
> a sole about the irresponsible behavior and near tragedy,and we're supposed
> to credit George for his wonderful behavior...not simply that he prevents
> the tragedy (an indisputable good), but (per a line of dialog between
> Clarence and God or Joseph) for keeping a secret that should never have been
> kept!
Mr. Gower's son had just been killed in the Great War, his drunkenness
was a one-time aberration, and George understood that. By saving not
only the pharmacy customer but more importantly Mr. Gower himself,
George performed a valuable service to the community.
>
> Loan: During the run on the bank, one customer demands the full balance of
> his account. "That closes my account." he asserts, but George responds
> "Your account's still open. That's a loan." But...who said this guy wants
> a loan? If I made a withdrawal from my bank and they booked it as a loan,
> I'd be furious. Why are we supposed to credit this forced loan treatment as
> something positive?
Potter's bank is heartless; George's is not. It was a no-interest loan
and it was repayed 10-fold at the end of the movie. Bad business; good
story.
>
> Silly dialog: When George returns home after discovering Uncle Billy's
> carelessness, his petulent outbursts are poorly constructed. "Why do we
> have to have all these kids?" Dumb.
You're grasping, Steve.
>
> Second Class: Clarence describes his position as "Angel s2", then offers the
> clarification "Angel Second Class". How does "s2" translate into "Second
> Class"?
How does ID4 translate into "Independence Day?" More important, how do
I even know that it does? Some things are better left unexplained,
Steve. Move along.
>
> Dont Ask Dont Tell: Why does Clarence insist that he "isnt supposed to tell"
> the never-born George that Mary is a spinster? He's told about his dead
> brother, thousands of dead soldiers on the troop transport, his mother
> turned hard and running a boarding house, etc., yet, for literally untold
> reasons, Clarence isnt supposed to tell George that Mary is (gasp) an
> unmarried librarian. What?
Actually she's not a spinster; she's an "old maid." You got a problem
with that? Why? It's a dream, a fantasy -- Steve, that means this part
isn't real. If Clarence says he's not supposed to tell, then clearly
he's not supposed to tell. But the part about every time a bell rings an
angel gets its wings -- now that's all true.
>
> Editing: Perhaps it's just a matter of restoration, but the scene where
> Uncle Billy drops the money in Potter's lap has half a dozen abrupt cuts
> (jump cuts, in essence). I noticed one or two other scenes with a jump cut.
> Has some footage been lost, or was the film originally edited this way?
> The dialog flows naturally across the cuts, if that suggests anything.
Well, OK. Those cuts have always ruined the entire movie for me too. I
simply have to turn it off there.
--
Bill Anderson
I am the Mighty Favog
Brad Filippone
> On 12/23/2010 2:23 PM, steve wrote:
>
> > Things that bug me when I watch IAWL (which we do every year at this time).
>
> > Gowar: IAWL has some twisted moral messages. Perhaps the most disturbing is
> > the treatment of Mr. Gowar, the pharmacist. He's seen drinking heavily (and
> > smoking) in his lab. Having nearly poisoned someone, Gowar flies into a
> > drunken rage and is abusive to young George. George promises never to tell
> > a sole about the irresponsible behavior and near tragedy,and we're supposed
> > to credit George for his wonderful behavior...not simply that he prevents
> > the tragedy (an indisputable good), but (per a line of dialog between
> > Clarence and God or Joseph) for keeping a secret that should never have been
> > kept!
>
> Mr. Gower's son had just been killed in the Great War, his drunkenness
> was a one-time aberration, and George understood that. By saving not
> only the pharmacy customer but more importantly Mr. Gower himself,
> George performed a valuable service to the community.
>
>
> > Loan: During the run on the bank, one customer demands the full balance of
> > his account. "That closes my account." he asserts, but George responds
> > "Your account's still open. That's a loan." But...who said this guy wants
> > a loan? If I made a withdrawal from my bank and they booked it as a loan,
> > I'd be furious. Why are we supposed to credit this forced loan treatment as
> > something positive?
>
> Potter's bank is heartless; George's is not. It was a no-interest loan
> and it was repayed 10-fold at the end of the movie. Bad business; good
> story.
>
understood the situation, and yet he insisted on the full $242.
>
> > Silly dialog: When George returns home after discovering Uncle Billy's
> > carelessness, his petulent outbursts are poorly constructed. "Why do we
> > have to have all these kids?" Dumb.
>
>
> > Uncle Billy drops the money in Potter's lap has half a dozen abrupt cuts
> > (jump cuts, in essence). I noticed one or two other scenes with a jump cut.
> > Has some footage been lost, or was the film originally edited this way?
> > The dialog flows naturally across the cuts, if that suggests anything.
>
> Well, OK. Those cuts have always ruined the entire movie for me too. I
> simply have to turn it off there.
>
here shortly before I was going to pop my disk in for my annuel
viewing of the movie. I didn't remember the cuts, but sure enough
they were there. I didn't notice them in twenty years of annual
viewings! But with his complaint in mind as I started the movie I did
notice a few others. I don't remember them all, but one of them was
the bedroom scene when Mary announces her pregnancy. I can't exactly
saya they were intrusive, since, as I said, I'd never noticed them
before.
Brad
Bill Anderson
Nor have I, Brad.