21st-century movies with middle-aged, childfree characters?

[leno...@yahoo.com]

I was looking again at this article: "You're still nothing until you're a mom: Why does pop culture hate the child-free?"

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/30/youre_still_nothing_until_youre_a_mom_why_does_pop_culture_hate_the_child_free/

Quote:

"One can argue that there are plenty of these characters in pop culture, but my point is that there aren't that many narratives that are centered around the active decision not to have kids. It's almost inevitable that when the issue comes up, by the end of the story the person will make the 'right' decision and choose to procreate."


I can understand why that's the case; in a movie finale, it can look sort of negative for a YOUNG character to choose never to have kids or to choose not to marry - unless we're talking about the 1998 "Elizabeth" with Cate Blanchett - and even that had a certain gloomy coldness to it.

But...what about movies with, say, women characters over 50 who are childfree (not infertile and unwilling to adopt), accomplished, and cheerful? Or childfree couples of that age? Can you name any from the last 15 years?

After all, such movies could easily focus on what such people have DONE (and are still doing) with their lives, not on what they chose not to do. As I once said, I didn't become a parent for the same reason I didn't become a surgeon or a ditch-digger - I just didn't want to. Not to mention, would it really make any difference to us if we knew exactly how many of our favorite entertainers and historical figures of the last 100 years never had children, willingly or not? Does it diminish the marks they made on the world? Would their hypothetical kids have done half as well as they did at the same pursuits? Should semi-rotten fathers like Einstein and Mahatma Gandhi be thought of as an excuse to breed if you KNOW you wouldn't do any better than they did at parenting? I think not.



Lenona.

[gtr]

On 2015-06-20 16:06:11 +0000, leno...@yahoo.com said:

> I was looking again at this article: "You're still nothing until you're
> a mom: Why does pop culture hate the child-free?"
>
> http://www.salon.com/2015/04/30/youre_still_nothing_until_youre_a_mom_why_does_pop_culture_hate_the_child_free/
>
>
> Quote:
> "One can argue that there are plenty of these characters in pop
> culture, but my point is that there aren't that many narratives that
> are centered around the active decision not to have kids. It's almost
> inevitable that when the issue comes up, by the end of the story the
> person will make the 'right' decision and choose to procreate."

There aren't many narratives constructed around a characters reluctance
to do ANYthing! It's just not much of a plot: A man doesn't go into a
bar. A prince, upon reaching adulthood, is encouraged by his father
the king to not go out and seek his fortune, which he agrees would be a
good thing not to do.

I don't think there are plots that center around the active decision to
not have kids, because many/most adults don't come to that "active
decision". I have no children, never wanted any, nor did my wife. I'm
in this film salon with 4 other couples and only one of them had a
child. I believe that if ANY of us had gotten pregnant we STILL
wouldn't have made an "active decision" to not have children; we would
have mad an "active decision" whether to let *this pregnancy* come to
term.

Similarly I don't think people make the active decision to NEVER eat
escargot or go sky-diving--they simply turn these options down "this
time".

> I can understand why that's the case; in a movie finale, it can look
> sort of negative for a YOUNG character to choose never to have kids or
> to choose not to marry - unless we're talking about the 1998
> "Elizabeth" with Cate Blanchett - and even that had a certain gloomy
> coldness to it.

First, the story. What kind of story is it that would revolve around
this one issue? Likely a pretty boring one, or a tear-jerker
predicated on the one issue of non-activity. Tough structure.

> But...what about movies with, say, women characters over 50 who are
> childfree (not infertile and unwilling to adopt), accomplished, and
> cheerful? Or childfree couples of that age? Can you name any from the
> last 15 years?

You mean of ALL the many women-over-50 movies in the past 15 years? Or
just the American women-over-50 movies? Because I assume that would
count the numbers from around 8 down to about 5.

> After all, such movies could easily focus on what such people have DONE
> (and are still doing) with their lives, not on what they chose not to
> do. As I once said, I didn't become a parent for the same reason I
> didn't become a surgeon or a ditch-digger - I just didn't want to.

Same here. Not much of a story.

> Not to mention, would it really make any difference to us if we knew
> exactly how many of our favorite entertainers and historical figures of
> the last 100 years never had children, willingly or not?

Not any more than if they had a birthmark on their left butt cheek.

> Does it diminish the marks they made on the world? Would their
> hypothetical kids have done half as well as they did at the same
> pursuits? Should semi-rotten fathers like Einstein and Mahatma Gandhi
> be thought of as an excuse to breed if you KNOW you wouldn't do any
> better than they did at parenting? I think not.

Sure doesn't sound like an interesting movie.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

> > I can understand why that's the case; in a movie finale, it can look
> > sort of negative for a YOUNG character to choose never to have kids or
> > to choose not to marry - unless we're talking about the 1998
> > "Elizabeth" with Cate Blanchett - and even that had a certain gloomy
> > coldness to it.
>
> First, the story. What kind of story is it that would revolve around
> this one issue? Likely a pretty boring one, or a tear-jerker
> predicated on the one issue of non-activity. Tough structure.

All I was saying was: The last few seconds of THAT movie emphasize that she never married (and thus never had children). Yet we all know that Queen Elizabeth's reign was anything but boring, even if the movie stopped before showing most of it. So while the movie didn't "revolve" around that one issue, it was hardly something the viewer could avoid noticing.

> You mean of ALL the many women-over-50 movies in the past 15 years? Or
> just the American women-over-50 movies? Because I assume that would
> count the numbers from around 8 down to about 5.

Fine. What are the names of the 8? If we include movies about male-female couples of that age, how many more would there be?

> > After all, such movies could easily focus on what such people have DONE
> > (and are still doing) with their lives, not on what they chose not to
> > do. As I once said, I didn't become a parent for the same reason I
> > didn't become a surgeon or a ditch-digger - I just didn't want to.
>
> Same here. Not much of a story.

You didn't read the first sentence in that one, did you?

> > Does it diminish the marks they made on the world? Would their
> > hypothetical kids have done half as well as they did at the same
> > pursuits? Should semi-rotten fathers like Einstein and Mahatma Gandhi
> > be thought of as an excuse to breed if you KNOW you wouldn't do any
> > better than they did at parenting? I think not.
>
> Sure doesn't sound like an interesting movie.

I don't follow. The lives of Einstein and Gandhi would be fascinating to any adult even if neither had had children. (I don't remember whether the 1980s movie "Gandhi" portrayed his children at all; I'm sure there was nothing about how he wouldn't let his sons get an education. Or about how he let his wife die presumably because he was opposed to doctors using "violent" tools like hypodermics or scalpels, but when HE got appendicitis, he submitted to surgery.)

So anyway, it could easily make for a fascinating movie if we're talking about, say, middle-aged fictional men and women who tell, in flashback, how they went out and made their impressive marks on the world - maybe as a married team - but who also make clear, briefly if necessary, that they were happier and more ACCOMPLISHED by not having kids and spent time dodging would-be spouses (and nosy relatives and religious figures) who wanted to change their minds. Again, that part could be told in just a few seconds.


Lenona.

[gtr]

On 2015-06-20 17:38:23 +0000, leno...@yahoo.com said:

> All I was saying was: The last few seconds of THAT movie emphasize that
> she never married (and thus never had children).

I don't know which one "THAT movie" is.

> Yet we all know that Queen Elizabeth's reign was anything but boring,
> even if the movie stopped before showing most of it. So while the movie
> didn't "revolve" around that one issue, it was hardly something the
> viewer could avoid noticing.
>
>> You mean of ALL the many women-over-50 movies in the past 15 years? Or
>> just the American women-over-50 movies? Because I assume that would
>> count the numbers from around 8 down to about 5.
>
> Fine. What are the names of the 8?

I was kidding. Where there 3?

> If we include movies about male-female couples of that age, how many
> more would there be?

I couldn't guess. I wouldn't imagine there are many.

>>> After all, such movies could easily focus on what such people have DONE
>>> (and are still doing) with their lives, not on what they chose not to
>>> do. As I once said, I didn't become a parent for the same reason I
>>> didn't become a surgeon or a ditch-digger - I just didn't want to.
>>
>> Same here. Not much of a story.
>
> You didn't read the first sentence in that one, did you?

Yes I did. I still didn't have any children, and it's still not much
of a story. I must say I've never counted "such movies" (women over 50
that chose not to have children but do something noteworthy and it's
not about them choosing to remain childless). Is that a genre?

If your central point is that women are generally depicted in relation
to their sexually attractiveness until they switch to their other
role--that of a mother--I agree. Women's roles in movies are even more
stultifying and narrow than their roles in real life. The fact that we
have the occasional movie about a woman that doesn't revolve around her
acquiring a man is amazing as is. My favorite remains "I've Heard The
Mermaids Singing". For "movies that end without a woman in a man's
arms" it remains "Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion", where the
"happy ending" is two women who love each other and have succeeded
without a man.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 2:23:50 PM UTC-4, gtr wrote:

> I must say I've never counted "such movies" (women over 50
> that chose not to have children but do something noteworthy and it's
> not about them choosing to remain childless). Is that a genre?

No, but it's sort of like the Bechdel test for movies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

That is, it's something worth seeking out, if only for its rareness. Not to mention that what the Bechdel test describes is NOT exactly rare; it's something that happens All The Time in real life - and so does choosing to become highly accomplished in one area or another without choosing to juggle that pursuit with a family. So it would only make sense to show that more often in the movies. Contrary to what some condescending types like to claim, childfree (as opposed to childless) people don't "forget" to have children; they simply keep quiet about their decision for fear of being sneered at or condemned in one way or another, much as women who never married used to be automatically seen as social failures.

More on the Bechdel test:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bechdel+rule


Lenona.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 2:44:37 PM UTC-4, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
> More on the Bechdel test:
>
> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bechdel+rule

I like this comment, in particular (it's in response to the HuffPost article):

"Why the Bechdel Test Fails Feminism"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anna-waletzko/why-the-bechdel-test-fails-feminism_b_7139510.html

Alex Hoag:
"Okay, this whole goddamn article misses the point of the Bechdel test. It isn't some test to see if a movie is yay super feminist! It's a test representing the bare minimum of female representation in movies. THAT is the point that she was making when she made the test. It's an insanely easy test to pass, and yet the vast majority of movies do not. That's the point. Yes, movies that pass the Bechdel test can be incredibly un-feminist, but it doesn't measure feminism in a movie, just representation! There are other tests that have cropped up now that measure other aspects. The Mako Mori test, for example, for female characters with deep backgrounds and their own stories that stand on their own within the movie. They measure different things, and neither one alone makes for a feminist masterpiece. They're the absolute lowest bars for their respective measures, the bare minimum that SHOULD be happening, and yet they don't. So the point you're making is very well known to Bechdel herself, and was intentional."


Also see:

2013: "10 Famous Films That Surprisingly Fail The Bechdel Test"

http://filmschoolrejects.com/features/10-famous-films-that-surprisingly-fail-the-bechdel-test.php?all=1

And:

"50 greatest films that pass the Bechdel Test"

http://www.gamesradar.com/50-greatest-films-pass-bechdel-test/

Included: All About Eve.

Some of the older movies that surprised me a bit: Life of Brian, Jaws, Roman Holiday, The Apartment, Gone With the Wind, Some Like it Hot, Dog Day Afternoon, and The Godfather, Part II. The 1990s movies included Goodfellas and Pulp Fiction. There are more recent ones as well.


Lenona.

[madar...@gmail.com]

There are a lot of kung fu and samurai movies where the hero chooses a life of celibacy to either devote himself to his martial art or becomes a monk at a temple or monastery and chooses a life of celibacy. In Hong Kong movies, they usually wind up at Shaolin Temple to learn martial arts but they have to become a monk and choose a life of celibacy first. I don't know if this fits your category or not.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, June 21, 2015 at 9:37:48 PM UTC-4, madar...@gmail.com wrote:

> There are a lot of kung fu and samurai movies where the hero chooses a life of celibacy to either devote himself to his martial art or becomes a monk at a temple or monastery and chooses a life of celibacy. In Hong Kong movies, they usually wind up at Shaolin Temple to learn martial arts but they have to become a monk and choose a life of celibacy first. I don't know if this fits your category or not.

Sort of, I guess. Except that I assume that most Asian men would not be willing to give up sex for life just for the sake of becoming a martial arts master! So, such movies would not seem realistic to the masses - and they wouldn't ruffle anyone's beliefs about what "normal" people should be doing with their lives. After all, Americans, at least, have always been at least somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of WOMEN having sex while refusing to have babies - even married women. So they might accept and enjoy movies about celibate women such as "The Song of Bernadette" or "The Nun's Story" (OK, so the endings of those two are very different from each other), but the common assumption about middle-aged female movie characters who never had children is that they must have just been unlucky in one way or another - unless it's made clear, albeit briefly, that they never WANTED kids.


Lenona.

[madar...@gmail.com]

How come we can't combine this discussion with Jana (Denise)'s thread about women choosing celibacy ("The Lady Says No")?

[bermuda999]

http://media.giphy.com/media/p7U1fHij5UxOM/giphy.gif

[leno...@yahoo.com]

>
> How come we can't combine this discussion with Jana (Denise)'s thread about women choosing celibacy ("The Lady Says No")?

Mainly because modern women don't choose celibacy just because they choose not to have children. But I assume you knew that.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, June 22, 2015 at 4:58:08 PM UTC-4, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>
> Mainly because modern women don't choose celibacy just because they choose not to have children. But I assume you knew that.

And, of course, women today who choose not to marry are not going to abstain from sex - oh, the horror!

(The brilliant Wendy Kaminer once pointed out in one of her essays that the trouble with abstinence programs in school is that the unspoken message is "abstain until marriage or death, whichever comes first." As a friend of hers said, had she grown up in the 1950s and been raised that way, she likely would have "married the first man I slept with and been miserable." I only wish that friend had said "married the first man I WANTED to sleep with and been miserable," since that would have hit home with more conservatives.)


Lenona.

[David Johnston]

On 6/20/2015 11:38 AM, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>> I can understand why that's the case; in a movie finale, it can look
>>> sort of negative for a YOUNG character to choose never to have kids or
>>> to choose not to marry - unless we're talking about the 1998
>>> "Elizabeth" with Cate Blanchett - and even that had a certain gloomy
>>> coldness to it.
>>
>> First, the story. What kind of story is it that would revolve around
>> this one issue? Likely a pretty boring one, or a tear-jerker
>> predicated on the one issue of non-activity. Tough structure.
>
> All I was saying was: The last few seconds of THAT movie emphasize that she never married (and thus never had children). Yet we all know that Queen Elizabeth's reign was anything but boring, even if the movie stopped before showing most of it. So while the movie didn't "revolve" around that one issue, it was hardly something the viewer could avoid noticing.
>

There are lots and lots of movies featuring people who aren't married
and have no children that we see.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:14:18 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:

>
> There are lots and lots of movies featuring people who aren't married
> and have no children that we see.

Most of whom are under 35 - sometimes well under. Those hardly count, especially if they don't even SAY they will never be willing parents.

(The movie in the article is the recent "While We're Young." Quote: "What could have been a forward-thinking film that shows it's OK to not change your mind about having kids instead dissolves into an age-old stereotype. This is incredibly frustrating -- particularly in a cultural moment in which writers are giving voice to nontraditional narratives, and people are noticing and making it part of the conversation.")

It's very seldom made clear whether such characters, young or not, want it that way or whether they were just unpopular - or "unlucky." I.e., whether they're childless or childfree. As I said, it would only take a few seconds of any movie's time to clear up that question. Also, it would help if the character were both female and over 50, since that way the viewers can't say to themselves "she'll change her mind someday."

As the writer (Michele Filgate) said at the end of the Salon article:

"Many U.S. citizens are childless by choice -- and we need to see more stories that reflect all of the thought that goes into making that kind of decision. A decision not to do something that is largely expected of most people since the beginning of time is a story that deserves to be told. It's a story that deserves to be heard."

For the record, too, last I heard, 1 in 5 American women who are 40 do not have children - a great rise since the 1970s. (But I do think it would have been more convincing to look only at women who just turned 50.)

Also, Sylvia D. Lucas (author of "No Children, No Guilt") wrote two good pieces. One was:

"He Says He Wants Kids - But Does He Mean, 'I want YOU to have kids'?"

http://sylviadlucas.com/2012/01/12/he-says-he-wants-kids/

E.g., more men than you might think would be happy enough not to have kids once they realize that women aren't going to do all the diapers and drudge work anymore.

And:

"Will the childfree regret their choice later?"

http://sylviadlucas.com/2013/05/13/childfree-regret/

Bottom line in that one: If you find yourself thinking "I should have had kids" but you really only want the fun and can't truthfully say you would go through all the work of childrearing if you could just turn back the clock, no, that is not real regret.


Lenona.

[David Johnston]

Even though it would be boring as hell it would be good for us. Like
broccoli.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

> >
> > "Many U.S. citizens are childless by choice -- and we need to see
> > more stories that reflect all of the thought that goes into making
> > that kind of decision. A decision not to do something that is largely
> > expected of most people since the beginning of time is a story that
> > deserves to be told.
>
> Even though it would be boring as hell it would be good for us. Like
> broccoli.

OK, so she could have phrased it better - as in: "A decision to do something remarkable with your life INSTEAD of that conformist decision which has been expected of everyone since the beginning of time is a story that deserves to be told."

But, like what happens under the Bechdel test, childfreedom doesn't have to be The Entire Plot; it would just be one tiny but significant (and unmistakable)part of the movie. It would be about Basic Representation of a growing population. (Ralph Nader is one famous example; I heard he openly forfeited both marriage and children simply because he wanted to devote his life to his cause - but maybe he had a difficult time making that decision, otherwise, why would he have talked publically about it? Otherwise, I would never have known just how he came not to have children.)

And, one could argue about whether or not "Some Like It Hot" is really pro-woman, as opposed to anti-machoism, but at least it passes the Bechdel test (the women talk about mixing drinks - for a few seconds).


Lenona.

[David Johnston]

On 6/24/2015 4:47 PM, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>
>>> "Many U.S. citizens are childless by choice -- and we need to
>>> see more stories that reflect all of the thought that goes into
>>> making that kind of decision. A decision not to do something that
>>> is largely expected of most people since the beginning of time is
>>> a story that deserves to be told.
>>
>> Even though it would be boring as hell it would be good for us.
>> Like broccoli.
>
>
> OK, so she could have phrased it better - as in: "A decision to do
> something remarkable with your life INSTEAD of that conformist
> decision which has been expected of everyone since the beginning of
> time is a story that deserves to be told."

I'm not sure how the idea that you can't do something remarkable if you
spawn will play.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 12:03:35 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:

>
> I'm not sure how the idea that you can't do something remarkable if you
> spawn will play.

Doesn't have to be presented that way either.

BTW, only one of Martin Luther King Jr.'s four children (Martin III) ever married and had a child (a daughter, in 2008) - possibly because they mostly preferred to carry on their father's work for one reason or another, and that's a LOT of work.

Bottom line is, you might say: Famous people often have good "excuses" for forgoing parenthood - they just didn't have the energy it takes to juggle efficiently. However, one annoying problem is that anyone who does not have a compelling "excuse" the way the King children or Ralph Nader did is often labeled as "horribly selfish." Especially a woman, even if she simply has very little patience with children, can't tolerate noise, and/or wants to spend 80 hours a week painting or something else. So if it's becoming (very slowly) OK for married men not to want children, why not all childfree men and women - and why can't that decision be revealed once in a while? After all, divorced parents used to be taboo on TV, as well as gay characters (such people could only be bachelors and spinsters). Not to mention dignified minority characters.

Also, I'm pretty sure that infertile couples who tried and tried to have kids don't get labeled selfish just because they chose not to adopt - despite the huge numbers of foster kids available for adoption! If so, why is that?


Lenona.