James Lee barrett == Larry McMurtry?
Cato
Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
below).
If you want proof of whether the screenwriter James Lee Barrett really
is MCmurtry, Barrett played a bit part in the movie Fool's (Fools')
Parade (aka Glory Kid from Dynamite jail??). The movie is rare, but
can be found on amazon/ebay etc.
If anyone wants to research it, please let us know.....
>>>
Message 1 in thread
From: Dlehmicke (dleh...@aol.com)
Subject: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-24 12:35:29 PST
Sorry, lost the original post/thread. Someone noted Bandolero (1968,
written
by James Lee Barett) used character names from Larry McMurtry's
Lonesome Dove).
Here are some dots to connect: IMDB lists James Lee Barrett as an
Executive
Producer for the TVMs from McMurtry's Streets of Laredo and Deadman's
Walk.
Message 2 in thread
From: LODGESTE (lodg...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-24 12:47:54 PST
.
>Someone noted Bandolero (1968, written
>by James Lee Barett) used character names from Larry McMurtry's
Lonesome
>Dove).
I seriously doubt Lonesome Dove (the novel) had even been written in
1968,
though I could be wrong.
- Steve
Message 3 in thread
From: Vidar Nilsen (vi...@vidarnilsen.net)
Subject: Re: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-24 12:50:16 PST
"LODGESTE" <lodg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020624154625...@mb-ce.aol.com...
> .
> >Someone noted Bandolero (1968, written
> >by James Lee Barett) used character names from Larry McMurtry's Lonesome
> >Dove).
> I seriously doubt Lonesome Dove (the novel) had even been written in 1968,
> though I could be wrong.
It was written in 1985.
Vidar
Message 4 in thread
From: Dlehmicke (dleh...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-24 13:03:44 PST
>>Someone noted Bandolero (1968, written
>>by James Lee Barett) used character names from Larry McMurtry's
Lonesome
>>Dove).
> I seriously doubt Lonesome Dove (the novel) had even been written in 1968,
>though I could be wrong.
>- Steve
I should have reversed the subject and object in my sentence. Thanks
for the
correction.
BTW, imdb.com also says McMurtry originiated Lonesome Dove as a
screenplay in
1971, and later resurrected it in novel form.
Message 5 in thread
From: wcmartell (wcma...@compuserve.com)
Subject: Re: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-24 23:22:31 PST
dleh...@aol.com (Dlehmicke) wrote in message news:<20020624153436...@mb-fo.aol.com>...
> Sorry, lost the original post/thread. Someone noted Bandolero (1968, written
> by James Lee Barett) used character names from Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove).
> > Here are some dots to connect: IMDB lists James Lee Barrett as an Executive
> Producer for the TVMs from McMurtry's Streets of Laredo and Deadman's Walk.
James Lee Barrett was the character Dick Powell -played in THE BAD AND
THE BEAUTIFUL - a novelist who came to Hollywood to adapt his book
into a screenplay...
So I suspect that Barrett and McMurtry are the same person.
- Bill (great Goldsmith score, by the way)
Message 6 in thread
From: MC (co...@ca.inter.net)
Subject: Re: Bandolero (was ??)
View this article only
Newsgroups: misc.writing.screenplays
Date: 2002-06-25 04:20:08 PST
In article <37a28db9.02062...@posting.google.com>,
wcma...@compuserve.com (wcmartell) wrote:
> James Lee Barrett was the character Dick Powell -played in THE BAD AND
> THE BEAUTIFUL - a novelist who came to Hollywood to adapt his book
> into a screenplay...
> > So I suspect that Barrett and McMurtry are the same person.
Great catch.
Joe Gillis
not_a_pa...@yahoo.com (Cato) wrote:
>
>I watched Bandolero again and as I have said many times here on
>Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
>movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
>google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
>James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
>Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
>a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
>below).
From allmovie.com, entry for James Lee Barrett:
"Birth Nov 19, 1929
Before becoming a
screenwriter, James Lee Barrett served in the Marines. His first
screenplay for The D.I. (1957) was about a Marine drill instructor."
IIRC, Larry McMurtry (b. 1935?) was then an undergraduate at North Texas State
College.
Barrett also co-wrote On The Beach (1959).
I also fail to see any resemblance between Bandolero & Lonesome Dove. Lonesome
Dove concerns a cattle drive, while Bandolero deals with eluding a posse after
escaping from a public hanging.
FWIW, the hangman section of Bandolero was a reworking of another TCF western,
The Bravados (1958).
=================================================
"I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy." -- Samuel Butler
Dean Eaton
and two brothers, are July Johnson (George Kennedy) and Roscoe (Andrew
Prine).
"Lonesome Dove" 's sheriff and deputy sheriff, in not-so-hot pursuit of a
missing wife and two ramblers, are July Johnson (Chris Cooper) and Roscoe
(Barry Corbin).
Dean
"Joe Gillis" <cinema...@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20021009032128...@mb-mt.aol.com...
Cato
> not_a_pa...@yahoo.com (Cato) wrote:
>
> >
> >I watched Bandolero again and as I have said many times here on
> >Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
> >movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
> >google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
> >James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
> >Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
> >a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
> >below).
>
> From allmovie.com, entry for James Lee Barrett:
>
> "Birth Nov 19, 1929
>
> Before becoming a
> screenwriter, James Lee Barrett served in the Marines. His first
> screenplay for The D.I. (1957) was about a Marine drill instructor."
>
> IIRC, Larry McMurtry (b. 1935?) was then an undergraduate at North Texas State
> College.
>
> Barrett also co-wrote On The Beach (1959).
>
It also shows Barrett as dying in 1989, and then acting as Executive
producer the TV verion of Mcmurtry's Streets of laredo in the mid
90s'. Which is correct?
Some googled websites even show barrett as being nominated for an
award for Last Picture Show, and some show Mcmurtry as being nominated
for an award for that movie.
> I also fail to see any resemblance between Bandolero & Lonesome Dove. Lonesome
> Dove concerns a cattle drive, while Bandolero deals with eluding a posse after
> escaping from a public hanging.
Well, as Mr Eaton pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it seems your
observation skills fell short here. A movie is more than just the
broad plot you see printed in the TV guide; a good movie has subplots
and character development and nuances.
Anyway, the parallels are much deeper than just the July
Johnson/Roscoe subplot: if you look, you can find the genesis of the
Jake Spoon character/plot situation in the major character played by
Dean Martin.
Lonesome Dove is in large part a rewrite of 2 movies that Barrett
scripted: Bandolero and The Cheyenne Social Club. Maybe LM sold a
screenplay and Barrett adapted it for Bandolero and Cheyenne Social
Club?
I do not know if Barret == LM, or if they had a friendship/mentoring
relationship, or what, but if you want to find out, buy the movie
Fool's (Fools?) Parade on amazon.com--James Lee Barrett played a bit
part in that movie (see imdb.com).
Jim Beaver
"Cato" <not_a_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e5b6c2b.02100...@posting.google.com...
> I watched Bandolero again and as I have said many times here on
> Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
> movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
> google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
> James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
> Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
> a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
> below).
>
> If you want proof of whether the screenwriter James Lee Barrett really
> is MCmurtry, Barrett played a bit part in the movie Fool's (Fools')
> Parade (aka Glory Kid from Dynamite jail??). The movie is rare, but
> can be found on amazon/ebay etc.
>
> If anyone wants to research it, please let us know.....
I thought, and had hoped intensely, that this crock of crap had withered
away and died, but obviously not. James Lee Barrett is not, was not, and
never will be Larry McMurtry. The connection between the two seems limited
to the fact that McMurtry used two character names that Barrett had
previously used in a vaguely similar set-up. None of the other stuff posted
provides any evidence of a connection between the two men.
Lots of writers (myself included) use character names from something else,
just for fun or because they want to acknowledge a similarity or to see if
anyone gets the in-joke. I have a screenplay in pre-production in which
every single character has a name taken from Raymond Chandler stories. I
did it just for fun, for an hommage, but I presume now that someone will
take it to mean that I AM Raymond Chandler!
Yes, for proof, if such a thing is necessary to nail this thing down, one
can view FOOL'S PARADE and see James Lee Barrett in the on-screen flesh.
I've seen it many times. He looks nothing like Larry McMurtry whatsoever,
and stands considerably shorter than McMurtry.
James Lee Barrett did not executive produce STREETS OF LAREDO or DEAD MAN'S
WALK, as he had been dead 6-7 years when those programs appeared. Those
IMDb credits linger from back when someone (I think it was the original
poster in this thread) changed all or most of Larry McMurtry's credits to
James Lee Barrett and posted on the IMDb that McMurtry was a pseudonym for
Barrett. Now that very credit, phony as it is, is being used as "proof"
that Barrett and McMurtry are one and the same! So I suppose if I submit to
the IMDb information suggesting that Raymond Chandler and I are the same
person, I can later use that IMDb listing to prove that Chandler and I are
the same!
I was an actor in WARDEN OF RED ROCK, a posthumous production of a James Lee
Barrett script. The producer, Paul Freeman, told me of buying the script
from Barrett prior to Barrett's 1989 death and of how long it took to get
the film produced, and that he was sorry Barrett hadn't lived long enough to
see it. He dedicated the film to Barrett's memory. None of this jibes with
the crackpot notion that Barrett (dead) and McMurtry (alive) are the same
person.
When this inanity first surfaced a few years ago, I contacted the originator
and explained things as I've done above. He said something along the lines
of "Oh, I just thought it was too coincidental that those character names
were the same, and that it must be the same guy writing both." He admitted
he had no further evidence. I can't believe he's at it again.
Once again we have an indication of WHY the IMDb is vulnerable: anybody
with a goofy idea can submit it as true, and pretty soon people start to
believe it.
Of course, if people want to think that I'm the author of THE BIG SLEEP, I
won't work this hard disproving it. ;-)
Jim Beaver
cryofan
> "Cato" <not_a_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8e5b6c2b.02100...@posting.google.com...
>
>>I watched Bandolero again and as I have said many times here on
>>Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
>>movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
>>google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
>>James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
>>Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
>>a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
>>below).
>>
>>If you want proof of whether the screenwriter James Lee Barrett really
>>is MCmurtry, Barrett played a bit part in the movie Fool's (Fools')
>>Parade (aka Glory Kid from Dynamite jail??). The movie is rare, but
>>can be found on amazon/ebay etc.
>>
>>If anyone wants to research it, please let us know.....
>>
>
> I thought, and had hoped intensely, that this crock of crap had withered
> away and died, but obviously not.
You just love to find something to complain about, don't you?
>James Lee Barrett is not, was not, and
> never will be Larry McMurtry. The connection between the two seems limited
> to the fact that McMurtry used two character names that Barrett had
> previously used in a vaguely similar set-up. None of the other stuff posted
> provides any evidence of a connection between the two men.
Your ignorance of the similarities btw the 2 works diminish your
potential credibility right away...
>
> Lots of writers (myself included) use character names from something else,
> just for fun or because they want to acknowledge a similarity or to see if
> anyone gets the in-joke. I have a screenplay in pre-production in which
> every single character has a name taken from Raymond Chandler stories. I
> did it just for fun, for an hommage, but I presume now that someone will
> take it to mean that I AM Raymond Chandler!
>
A halfway decent point....
> Yes, for proof, if such a thing is necessary to nail this thing down, one
> can view FOOL'S PARADE and see James Lee Barrett in the on-screen flesh.
> I've seen it many times. He looks nothing like Larry McMurtry whatsoever,
> and stands considerably shorter than McMurtry.
>
Curious...Fools' Parade is without doubt an obscure movie (rarely shown
in TV), but Bandolero is NOT obscure--it was shown this month. Curious
that you claim that the only similarities btw Bandlero and Lon Dove are
the names, when entire subplots and characters are copied virtually
intact. And yet for the obscure Fools Parade, you are away of the height
difference btw a screenwriter in a bit part and a novelist. Curious...
> James Lee Barrett did not executive produce STREETS OF LAREDO or DEAD MAN'S
> WALK, as he had been dead 6-7 years when those programs appeared. Those
> IMDb credits linger from back when someone (I think it was the original
> poster in this thread) changed all or most of Larry McMurtry's credits to
> James Lee Barrett and posted on the IMDb that McMurtry was a pseudonym for
> Barrett. Now that very credit, phony as it is, is being used as "proof"
> that Barrett and McMurtry are one and the same!
That is possible, but what about all the non-imdb references that cite
JLB as exec prod of those mid-90's works?
>
> I was an actor in WARDEN OF RED ROCK, a posthumous production of a James Lee
> Barrett script. The producer, Paul Freeman, told me of buying the script
> from Barrett prior to Barrett's 1989 death and of how long it took to get
> the film produced, and that he was sorry Barrett hadn't lived long enough to
> see it. He dedicated the film to Barrett's memory. None of this jibes with
> the crackpot notion that Barrett (dead) and McMurtry (alive) are the same
> person.
Interesting point. But why do you call me "crackpot"? You are the one
flying off the handle when someone proposes a hypothesis on NG and
offers evidence for teh hypo? Why are you acting like I kidnapped and
tortured your favorite dog?
>
> When this inanity first surfaced a few years ago, I contacted the originator
> and explained things as I've done above. He said something along the lines
> of "Oh, I just thought it was too coincidental that those character names
> were the same, and that it must be the same guy writing both." He admitted
> he had no further evidence. I can't believe he's at it again.
I did not just mention the names, I mentioned the plot and character
similarities....
>
> Once again we have an indication of WHY the IMDb is vulnerable: anybody
> with a goofy idea can submit it as true, and pretty soon people start to
> believe it.
>
Well, this little dispute will soon have an end: I have ordered
Fools Parade and will have it within a week, and will post my results
here. Assholes need not respond on that thread....
Jim Beaver
"cryofan" <cryofan@localdomain> wrote in message
news:3DA527D0.8000506@localdomain...
> Jim Beaver wrote:
> > "Cato" <not_a_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:8e5b6c2b.02100...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >>I watched Bandolero again and as I have said many times here on
> >>Usenet, the novel Lonesome Dove by McMurtry is obviously based on the
> >>movie Bandolero. I first noticed this connection in 1996. Search
> >>google groups for my postings on this subject and how I surmise that
> >>James Lee barrett is a pen name for McMurtry.
> >>Looks like someone else noticed the same thing this summer and posted
> >>a message saying so here on this newsgroup (the post is appended
> >>below).
> >>
> >>If you want proof of whether the screenwriter James Lee Barrett really
> >>is MCmurtry, Barrett played a bit part in the movie Fool's (Fools')
> >>Parade (aka Glory Kid from Dynamite jail??). The movie is rare, but
> >>can be found on amazon/ebay etc.
> >>
> >>If anyone wants to research it, please let us know.....
> >>
> >
> > I thought, and had hoped intensely, that this crock of crap had withered
> > away and died, but obviously not.
>
> You just love to find something to complain about, don't you?
No, if you've read much of my posting over the years, you'll see that I'm
not that frequent a complainer. But as a professional film historian (not
blowing my own horn, but rather meaning I've earned a living at it), I spend
far too much time correcting false information presented as true by people
who have not done sufficient research. Particularly on the IMDb, where I am
one of the four or five most prolific contributors, huge chunks of time are
spent by myself and others correcting errors that someone kinda thought were
probably true. I get a little cranky when people are not as devoted to cold
facts as I am. Speculation should be presented as speculation, but it
should also be backed up with something more than additional speculation.
>
>
> >James Lee Barrett is not, was not, and
> > never will be Larry McMurtry. The connection between the two seems
limited
> > to the fact that McMurtry used two character names that Barrett had
> > previously used in a vaguely similar set-up. None of the other stuff
posted
> > provides any evidence of a connection between the two men.
>
>
> Your ignorance of the similarities btw the 2 works diminish your
> potential credibility right away...
Really? Even if every word in LONESOME DOVE or STREETS OF LAREDO or even
TERMS OF ENDEARMENT is copied from BANDOLERO, that doesn't make James Lee
Barrett into Larry McMurtry. And much of what you see as extreme similarity
I see as either coincidental or imaginary.
> >
> > Lots of writers (myself included) use character names from something
else,
> > just for fun or because they want to acknowledge a similarity or to see
if
> > anyone gets the in-joke. I have a screenplay in pre-production in which
> > every single character has a name taken from Raymond Chandler stories.
I
> > did it just for fun, for an hommage, but I presume now that someone will
> > take it to mean that I AM Raymond Chandler!
> >
>
> A halfway decent point....
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, for proof, if such a thing is necessary to nail this thing down,
one
> > can view FOOL'S PARADE and see James Lee Barrett in the on-screen flesh.
> > I've seen it many times. He looks nothing like Larry McMurtry
whatsoever,
> > and stands considerably shorter than McMurtry.
> >
>
>
> Curious...Fools' Parade is without doubt an obscure movie (rarely shown
> in TV), but Bandolero is NOT obscure--it was shown this month. Curious
> that you claim that the only similarities btw Bandlero and Lon Dove are
> the names, when entire subplots and characters are copied virtually
> intact. And yet for the obscure Fools Parade, you are away of the height
> difference btw a screenwriter in a bit part and a novelist. Curious...
Why should I accept your premise that FOOLS' PARADE is obscure? I've seen
it probably eight times. I saw it at least three times in theatres or
public screenings, and at least five times on television or video. Larry
McMurtry and I are both members of the Writers Guild of America. I know
precisely what he looks like, and I know precisely what James Lee Barrett
looked like. There are no particularly notable similarities between them
beyond race, gender, and species.
I've also seen BANDOLERO many, many times, and I don't recognize "entire
subplots and characters [being] copied virtually intact." Even if they
were, as I said above, that would not prove anything about the identities of
the respective authors. It might provide ammunition for a plagiarism case,
if Barrett were alive to press one. You might as well say that because
Shakespeare copied chunks of Raphael Holinshed's Chronicles of England,
Scotland and Ireland for MACBETH, that Shakespeare IS Holinshed.
>
>
> > James Lee Barrett did not executive produce STREETS OF LAREDO or DEAD
MAN'S
> > WALK, as he had been dead 6-7 years when those programs appeared. Those
> > IMDb credits linger from back when someone (I think it was the original
> > poster in this thread) changed all or most of Larry McMurtry's credits
to
> > James Lee Barrett and posted on the IMDb that McMurtry was a pseudonym
for
> > Barrett. Now that very credit, phony as it is, is being used as "proof"
> > that Barrett and McMurtry are one and the same!
>
> That is possible, but what about all the non-imdb references that cite
> JLB as exec prod of those mid-90's works?
I'm not aware of the precise references you don't quite cite here, but if
they exist, I suspect they drew from the faulty IMDb credits.
>
>
>
> >
> > I was an actor in WARDEN OF RED ROCK, a posthumous production of a James
Lee
> > Barrett script. The producer, Paul Freeman, told me of buying the
script
> > from Barrett prior to Barrett's 1989 death and of how long it took to
get
> > the film produced, and that he was sorry Barrett hadn't lived long
enough to
> > see it. He dedicated the film to Barrett's memory. None of this jibes
with
> > the crackpot notion that Barrett (dead) and McMurtry (alive) are the
same
> > person.
>
> Interesting point. But why do you call me "crackpot"?
I didn't. I called the notion "crackpot." I don't think a person has to be
a crackpot to come up with an idea that flies in the face of logic,
evidence, and likelihood. But if such a person does, I call that idea
"crackpot." I called you no names. If, again, you'll check some of my
other posts, you'll find I'm not one for name-calling.
You are the one
> flying off the handle when someone proposes a hypothesis on NG and
> offers evidence for teh hypo?
I don't believe I flew off the handle. I think I've responded forthrightly
and courteously, although I did not, I think, address my original remarks to
you. I think this recurrent notion is a nutty one, in line with the
single-bullet theory and finding saints' faces in canteloupes. I've tried
not to show disrespect for anything but the "hypothesis." Granted, though,
when someone proposes a hypothesis and then without further evidence but
merely with speculation and supposition then alters the IMDb to reflect that
speculation as actual fact, I am troubled and a little peevish. I don't
know that the person who changed the IMDb was you, but I suspect from what
you've said that whoever did so, did so based on your
hypothesis-presented-as-unavoidable probability.
Why are you acting like I kidnapped and
> tortured your favorite dog?
I'm not. You may kidnap and torture my dog all you like. I'm not even fond
of him. And I'm not, as you imply, angry. Just troubled and a bit peevish,
as stated.
> >
> > When this inanity first surfaced a few years ago, I contacted the
originator
> > and explained things as I've done above. He said something along the
lines
> > of "Oh, I just thought it was too coincidental that those character
names
> > were the same, and that it must be the same guy writing both." He
admitted
> > he had no further evidence. I can't believe he's at it again.
>
> I did not just mention the names, I mentioned the plot and character
> similarities....
I'm talking about the correspondence I had a couple of years ago with a/the
progenitor of this hypothesis. That person, whether it was you or someone
else, said basically what I said he said, that the character names were what
convinced him. If that was not you, you will not find evidence in this
thread that I said it was.
> >
> > Once again we have an indication of WHY the IMDb is vulnerable: anybody
> > with a goofy idea can submit it as true, and pretty soon people start to
> > believe it.
> >
>
> Well, this little dispute will soon have an end: I have ordered
> Fools Parade and will have it within a week, and will post my results
> here. Assholes need not respond on that thread....
So my many viewings of FOOLS' PARADE count for nothing, but we can all rest
assured that once YOU have seen it, you will reveal the truth to us. Okay.
I'm sure you will watch it with an open mind.
And if I'm the "asshole" you refer to, as implied by the subtle nuance of
your last line, I presume this dodging bit of name-calling is a follow-up to
your errant complaint that I called YOU (rather than your "hypothesis")
crackpot. Does this mean I get to call you something worse now? Gosh, let
me think. What can I say? There are so many things, I can't decide which
to choose. Tell you what. I pass. Your turn.
Jim Beaver
David
>You might as well say that because
>Shakespeare copied chunks of Raphael Holinshed's Chronicles of England,
>Scotland and Ireland for MACBETH, that Shakespeare IS Holinshed.
First Francis Bacon, then Edward de Vere, & now Holinshed?
Reminds me of the wags who swear up & down that Matthew Arnold, in
"pursuit of sweetness & light," was ... Jack the Ripper.