Gloria Grahame -- Child Rapist?

[Jana...@aol.com]

I believe Gloria Grahame was a wonderfully skilled actress and, in many ways, a very admirable person. But did she commit "child rape"? In "Suicide Blonde," biographer Vincent Curcio says she probably engaged in sexual relations with Tony Ray when he was 13 years of age!

Tony Ray is still alive. Has he commented on this? Does he say that Gloria Grahame, as an adult in her late 20s, had sex with a 13-year-old?

[madar...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 5:27:03 PM UTC-4, Jana...@aol.com wrote:
> I believe Gloria Grahame was a wonderfully skilled actress and, in many ways, a very admirable person. But did she commit "child rape"? In "Suicide Blonde," biographer Vincent Curcio says she probably engaged in sexual relations with Tony Ray when he was 13 years of age!
>
> Tony Ray is still alive. Has he commented on this? Does he say that Gloria Grahame, as an adult in her late 20s, had sex with a 13-year-old?

They eventually got married. And he was the son of her earlier husband, Nicholas Ray, who directed her in IN A LONELY PLACE.

[Dave M]

I remember reading somewhere that she found out by accident that she had married her own son in law. I guess that was Tony Ray.

Dave M

[Jana...@aol.com]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 5:42:41 PM UTC-4, madar...@gmail.com wrote:

(Denise) Has Tony Ray ever publicly commented on the accusation that Gloria Grahame engaged in sex with him when he was only 13 years of age?
If she did, it was a MAJOR -- and CRIMINAL -- mess-up on her part.
Has Tony Ray said he believes she damaged his life?

[madar...@gmail.com]

How could sex with Gloria Grahame damage anyone's life? It would ENHANCE it! And besides, like I already said, HE EVENTUALLY MARRIED HER!!!

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) He was THIRTEEN YEARS OLD when he is alleged to have first had sex with her! That makes this whole thing quite different than an adult man having sex with a gorgeous and talented woman.

My question is perfectly legitimate and I think Tony Ray should say if the incident occurred and if he believed it damaged his life.

[moviePig]

My own politically incorrect view is that very few 13-year-old boys,
even in distant retrospect, will regard having gotten laid as anything
but the luckiest day of his life...

--

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

[nick...@gmail.com]

Read the recent biography of Bob Fosse. Getting it on with showgirls when he was that age messed him up for life. He'd be doing vaudeville and screwing showgirls backstage at night and spending his days at school like a normal kid. It wasn't healthy in the long term.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) Really, someone should ask Tony Ray to speak to this question.

[HardyBoys.us]

Why? It's nobodies business but his.

[moviePig]

It's true that I can't defend my assertion above with any more than
intuition. But, in 'getting it on with showgirls', I do seem to hear
more than just an early roll in the hay.

[nick...@gmail.com]

Fosse came to vaudeville/burlesque at its end, as the movies were driving the final nails in the coffin. By then it was the dismal end of the line for the truly washed up. It wasn't glamorous and what was going on was more on the level of sexual molestation rather than consensual good times.

[HardyBoys.us]

And you know this for a fact because...

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) The fact is that there are many cases in the news about adult women having sex with boys who are just barely in their teens. There is a controversy as to whether or not these offenses should be treated as seriously as cases of adult men having sex with girls who are just barely in their teens. It is relevant to learn whether or not Tony Ray considers himself victimized by having had sex when 13 years of age.

In addition, it does reflect strongly -- and negatively -- on the character of Gloria Grahame (an actress I admire in many ways) if she engaged in sex with a boy who was that young. This would be true even if one doesn't believe it is AS serious as the reverse since no reasonable person would think it is a GOOD thing.

[madar...@gmail.com]

Just for the record, Denise, your opening post does say that Curcio says she "probably engaged in sexual relations with Tony Ray when he was 13." The operative word here is "probably." That's not the same as "definitely." What context does Curcio give that made him think this? We could all be impugning poor Ms. Grahame's character here without any evidence. And she can't defend herself.

[moviePig]

In our society, I'd agree 110%. But I'm not sure it's a biological
given, holding across all societies (like, e.g., murder). And where
it's *not* a given, yeah, I'd still expect there to be gender bias.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) Curcio allows that there are those, such as Gloria Grahame's sister, who say that the incident never happened. However, Curcio talked to sources who satisfied him of their veracity. The boy had been at military school. He came home. It was his first day home in a long time. (Gloria Grahame came into the family by marrying Nicholas when Tony was 10.) His Dad was not home.

Tony and his step-mother felt an attraction and one thing led to another and the married adult woman and her 13-year-old stepson were soon having sex. Nicholas Ray came home and saw the two of them in bed together. He was -- understandably infuriated -- and yelled at both his young son and his adult wife. Young Tony had to spend that night with another family,

However, Nicholas did not report the incident to the police because he feared his own reputation would be damaged if his wife's crime was made public.

[HardyBoys.us]

Speaking only for myself, if an attractive women wanted to have sex with
me when I was 13, I would have been, to say the least, extremely
appreciative.
But all this is speculative, based on rumor and innuendo, and
besmirching a woman who can not defend herself.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) Curcio put this in the bio and MUCH of the bio is flattering to Grahame.

[HardyBoys.us]

Odd how soon after Old Pickle Jar went AWOL, you showed up. Just sayin'.
At any rate, I wonder why you appear to be so obsessed about the alleged
sexcapades of a long dead actress.

[Dave M]

Actually we don't know the whole story - Nicolas Ray found them in bed together and was justifiably annoyed. I don't he found them having sex. It might have been some kind of horseplay. Maybe the 13 year old was the instigator. Who knows?

Dave M

[Dave M]

I left out a word there "I don't THINK he found them having sex."

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) This sort of thing is no joking matter. A 13-year-old cannot legally consent to sexual relations with an adult! However, your hypothesis -- that he found his wife and son engaged in "some kind of horseplay" rather than sex is not entirely off-the-wall. Normal people will do such things. You could make a mistake about something like this. Yes, this is a possibility which is why Tony Ray ought to comment publicly on what did -- or did not -- happen.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) The problem here is that these are not just "alleged sexcapades." A 13-year-old cannot legally consent to sex with an adult! We're talking sex CRIME.

[bermuda999]

Right. Alleged sexcapade crimes from long ago in which the alleged adult participant is deceased. I'm sure Tony will get right on that to satisfy some morbid curiosity of some geek on Usenet.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) Tony Ray should clarify so that the general public will know the truth about Gloria Grahame's character. In addition, he has something important to contribute about the current debate on the statutory rape laws and whether or not they should apply equally to male and female perpetrators.

[madar...@gmail.com]

Inspector Javert lives!

[moviePig]

Well, Tony Ray quite possibly knows more of the 'truth' about Gloria
Grahame's character than he would ever be able to communicate with a
logbook of dates and acts. His silence is unsurprising.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 6:04:47 AM UTC-4, Jana...@aol.com wrote:
>

> > >> Problem here is that these are not just "alleged sexcapades." A 13-year-old cannot legally consent to sex with an adult! We're talking sex CRIME.

Went out for some drinks with friends and made the mistake of seeing what was going on in this forum. Let's take it from the top: Nicholas Ray came home to find his wife, Gloria Grahame, having sex with his 13-year-old son. This wasn't a case of "horse play" or other misunderstanding, it was sex; or, if you prefer, they were hiding the cannoli, schuppting, getting it on, playing the two-backed beast or what ever. Even her biographer included the story. The local troll says why bring this up when Grahame can't defend herself and the record shows via divorce proceedings and child custody hearings that Grahame never made a defense of her actions. To boot, no one ever came to her defense, There wasn't one. It isn't a question of whether she did it, it was always a question of why, and that's where it gets interesting. She was either: (a) a sexual predator; or (b) involved in a folie a deux; or, (c) intent on humiliating Nicholas Ray. In the spirit of inclusiveness, (b) and (c) seem to apply since no other similar events seem to apply.

I'm no psychologist so I can't begin to fathom the sickness of Gloria Grahame's soul. By the same token, I'm stunned at the lengths the Hurray-For-Hollywood apologists will go to discount this story. We can believe the worst of Roman Polanski or Woody Allen and yet from an actress from a golden moment in Hollywood history we cower from the facts, let;s face it: You can't handle the truth.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) To be fair, there ARE people like Gloria Grahame's sister who say it didn't happen. Gloria G. was never arrested and the incident subject to the rigors of a court.

However, it does cast a very, very negative light on her character. Having sex with a 13-year-old is not just "bad," but a CRIME.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <694f3ccb-8102-42f8...@googlegroups.com>,

In France it makes you a hero, especially if you use drugs and it's by
force.

--
Wait - are you saying that ClodReamer was wrong, or lying?

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) It is really unfortunate that the French government did not return Roman Polanski to America so he could face the music like any other person convicted of a similar offense.

However, these cases do raise the question: Does this crime depend on the gender of adult and gender of child?

Does a man who has sex with a 13-year-old girl commit a worse offense than a woman who has sex with a 13-year-old boy?

Note: "worse offense." That doesn't mean "no offense."

[moviePig]

Yes, even were it only because we *think* it's worse.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <0fb93e5c-2dca-49c0...@googlegroups.com>,

To the extent that minors can't legally consent, it's all equal. The
"boys want to have sex" defense is equivalent to "did you see how she
was dressed, she was asking for it" defense. We were looking for booze
and cigarettes at that age too; that doesn't mean we should have them.

Once you start drugging and raping, I'd hope it wouldn't matter what
gender either party was.

[Dave M]

I must admit than when I was 13 the thought of being in bed with Gloria Grahame would give me endless pleasure and boy would I brag about it to my schoolmates (I know. I know. It's nothing to joke about)

Dave M

[HardyBoys.us]

On 5/23/2015 1:13 AM, wlah...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 6:04:47 AM UTC-4, Jana...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> Problem here is that these are not just "alleged sexcapades." A 13-year-old cannot legally consent to sex with an adult! We're talking sex CRIME.
>

> Went out for some drinks with friends and made the mistake of seeing what was going on in this forum. ...


I told you that, like a dog to its vomit, Ahearn would be back.
He couldn't stay away, poor old fart.
What'd take? About a week or so?

[ungrace...@aol.com]

On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 1:13:26 AM UTC-4, wlah...@gmail.com wrote:

You've added all noise and no signal. Repetition of allegations is not the same as proof of allegations.

Guilt by biographer? Are you serious? Surely one might think that a biographer could have ulterior motives for including titillating rumors.

[trotsky]

Is he claiming, then, that he had left the group permanently again and
he just "popped in" when he was "having drinks with friends".

"Hi, friends, I know we're having drinks right now but I'm just going to
"pop in" to this newsgroup and see how they're doing. Excuse me a
minute, I do my best work on the shitter."

He didn't even have the common decency to come up with a good cover
story. How lame.

[HardyBoys.us]

Does anyone believe that Ahearn was not monitoring the group constantly
and was just champing at the bit to let loose with one of his patented,
self-aggrandizing, fatuous, inane remarks?
.
.
.
Anybody?
.
.
.
Didn't think so...

[Etal]

nick...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> moviePig wrote:


>>
>> My own politically incorrect view is that very few
>> 13-year-old boys, even in distant retrospect, will regard
>> having gotten laid as anything but the luckiest day of his
>> life...
>>
>
> Read the recent biography of Bob Fosse. Getting it on with
> showgirls when he was that age messed him up for life. He'd
> be doing vaudeville and screwing showgirls backstage at night
> and spending his days at school like a normal kid. It wasn't
> healthy in the long term.

He worked in all those cheap burlesque clubs.
Always around stark naked girls!
But did it bother him? No.
He never paid any attention.
Never even looked at them.

- Mom on Sex, Drugs and All that Jazz


--
"It's showtime, folks!"

[HardyBoys.us]

On 5/23/2015 3:55 PM, Dave M wrote:

> I must admit than when I was 13 the thought of being in bed with Gloria Grahame would give me endless pleasure and boy would I brag about it to my schoolmates (I know. I know. It's nothing to joke about)
>
> Dave M
>

If I had a sexy movie star like Gloria "rape" me at 13, I would have
taken out a front page ad in our local paper to inform everyone of my
tremendous good fortune.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) This leads directly into the question of how the statutory rape laws should be worded and enforced.

Caveat: When we discuss PRE-PUBESCENT children, there is no possible debate: prior to puberty, boys are entitled to equal protection from sexual predators as girls.

However, in and after puberty: are the differences between the genders such that the statutory rape laws should only apply to adults who engage in sex with girls?

Or are they such that predators targeting boys should not be punished as harshly as those who target boys?

[HardyBoys.us]

In our patriarchal society, women are treated as possessions and are
constrained to meet certain sexual standards which men are not. (e.g. A
man who sleeps around is a "stud". A woman who sleeps around is a "slut".)
I can't speak to the level of horniness among 13 or 14 year old girls
but if it is anything like mine was, it is pretty high.
Ideally, a younger person should have an older, more experienced lover
to initiate them.

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) Firstly, I don't agree that our society is "patriarchal." Societies are, and always have been, bi-sexist with both patriarchal and matriarchal elements.

As far as young girls and partnered sex, they are entitled to legal protection. Regardless of how "horny" a 13-year-old female is, she should not be having sex with a partner. It is dangerous to her both physically and mentally. At 13, I often had as many as 18 orgasms a day (probably more than you ever had). I was not in any way able to handle, physically or emotionally, the consequences of sex with a partner.


Thus, a man like Roman Polanski should have done some jail time for engaging in sex with a 13-year-old female.

IF Gloria Grahame had sex with a 13-year-old boy, should she have also done some jail time?

Should her punishment have been equal to that of a man who committed a comparable offense?

[moviePig]

You seem to be seeking a biologically precise law -- impossible, of
course, since individuals greatly vary. Instead, the law (as it should)
takes the practical approach of flatly proscribing sex with kids. And,
chances are that adults whose proclivities overwhelm that legal
restraint do, in general, warrant society's attention.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <6d95fcec-96a0-4801...@googlegroups.com>,

Neither the gender of the rapist or their victim should matter.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <4d8c320c-531c-4137...@googlegroups.com>,

Drugging, forcibly raping, sodomizing - not 'engaging in sex'

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) It is accepted by the VAST majority of people that an adult MALE who engages in sex with a 13-year-old girl has committed a very serious criminal offense -- even if there are no drugs and he had not used physical force.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <e770d36a-8769-45fd...@googlegroups.com>,

And I'm pointing out that Polanski didn't 'engage in sex' with his
victim - he drugged and raped and sodomized her against her specific 'no'

[Jana...@aol.com]

(Denise) This is contrary to what has been presented to the public. It's been presented as a case of strictly statutory rape. Polanski said he made advances "but she responded." If she said "No," then that is FORCIBLE rape which is -- by anyone's standards -- an even more serious sexual offense.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <9da30b61-5c0c-4848...@googlegroups.com>,

By Polanski's lawyer maybe.

It's
> been presented as a case of strictly statutory rape.

It was never that.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/roman-polanski/story?id=8705958

Polanski said he made
> advances "but she responded." If she said "No," then that is FORCIBLE rape
> which is -- by anyone's standards -- an even more serious sexual offense.

Yes, and yet Hollywood and the French laugh.

[Jana...@aol.com]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 5:34:34 PM UTC-4, poisoned rose wrote:

> Jana...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > At 13, I often had as many as 18 orgasms a day
>

> No wonder you type so well.

(Denise) I was a very "good girl" who wouldn't have kissed a boy. I didn't even know it was called an "orgasm" or that other people had them.

[madar...@gmail.com]

What, you never read any Judy Blume books?