Earl Holliman Gay?
darr...@aol.com
> Have been watching Giant tonight on TCM, and I found myself browsing through
> the star bios and a couple of web pages on IMDB and other places.
> One declared that "Holliman is a self-confessed confirmed bachelor."
> Am I late to the game and just now discovering that he's gay? I've never
> heard mention of such....
> And here's a little tidbit: two of the cast of "Giant" went on to play major
> roles in William Castle horror films: Carolyn Craig, who played Elizabeth
> Taylor's sister, was a star of the original "House on Haunted Hill." And
> Judith Evelyn, who played Elizabeth Taylor's mother in "Giant," was the mute
> gal in "The Tingler" who enjoys what was billed as the screen's "first
> full-color blood bath."!> Megans>>
The late, great James Dean would have been able to tell us!eheee Then
again, Dean is said to have been bi-curious. And as Andrew Dice Clay
(b. Silverstein, NYC's very own sweet Jew) once said, "There's no such
thing as bi-sexual. You either suck d*ck or you don't!" ehe -D, NYC
"Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team" - BILLY JOEL
(NY's very own sweet Jew - one of the top 100 selling artists of
all-time)
Bluegenie2
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ea3caee5.03042...@posting.google.com...
> "megans" <meg...@drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:<1051416300.618262@yasure>...
>
> > Have been watching Giant tonight on TCM, and I found myself browsing
through
> > the star bios and a couple of web pages on IMDB and other places.
> > One declared that "Holliman is a self-confessed confirmed bachelor."
How does that mean he was gay??? To me, it just means that he is an
unmarried man who isn't looking for a wife.
Craig Smith
>> > Have been watching Giant tonight on TCM, and I found myself browsing
>through
>> > the star bios and a couple of web pages on IMDB and other places.
>> > One declared that "Holliman is a self-confessed confirmed bachelor."
>
>How does that mean he was gay??? To me, it just means that he is an
>unmarried man who isn't looking for a wife.
No, "confirmed bachelor" is time-honored code for guys who don't
prefer women. That's why the bio uses the phrase
"self-confessed," implying that (a) there's something wrong with
it, and (b) that such a phrase came from him, and isn't a
statement made by someone else to slander him.
.:. Craig
Bluegenie2
"Craig Smith" <cr...@smithcraft.org> wrote in message
news:5tq3bv8cqc0oftgg5...@4ax.com...
I have never heard that usage of it before. I have a good friend in
california who is a self-proclaimed/confessed bachelor, but he likes women
just fine..........as in he is not gay. Not saying you are wrong or right,
but wonder how long that phrase has been associated with being gay?
Also, would be interested to know when he said that because if it was back
in the time of 'Giant' then it could have meant something entirely different
back then or means different now.
Bob
Bluegenie2 wrote:
At one time, it meant a guy who had so many women that it was ridiculous for him
to settle for just one. That changed, with time.
Bob
Craig Smith
The phrase as a euphemism for homosexual male was used throughout
most of the 20th century, but became very popular in the U.S. in
the 1940s and '50s. For many decades in England, the Times of
London in their obituaries would use the expressions "he never
married" for heterosexual bachelors, and "confirmed bachelor" as
a code for being gay. And according to AsiaWeek, It's still the
term of choice in many Asian countries where English is spoken,
since gay people there face terrible discrimination
(http://pathfinder.com/asiaweek/98/0807/cs1.html).
.:. Craig
Bluegenie2
Thank you Craig, I'll have to inform my friend of that :)
Guess he needs to change his wording.
Kal Alexander
It seems like this 'code' is rather well known. How can it
be of any value?
--
Later
Kal
--
Don't look now, but I think our village
is full of idiots!
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
news:Y3Asa.1219929$HU.1...@news.easynews.com...
The Morse Code was pretty generally known at one time and yet it retained a
certain value.
--
Frank in Seattle
___________
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"
Craig Smith
>> The phrase as a euphemism for homosexual male was used throughout
>> most of the 20th century, but became very popular in the U.S. in
>> the 1940s and '50s. For many decades in England, the Times of
>> London in their obituaries would use the expressions "he never
>> married" for heterosexual bachelors, and "confirmed bachelor" as
>> a code for being gay. And according to AsiaWeek, It's still the
>> term of choice in many Asian countries where English is spoken,
>> since gay people there face terrible discrimination
>> (http://pathfinder.com/asiaweek/98/0807/cs1.html).
>It seems like this 'code' is rather well known. How can it
>be of any value?
Quite easily, actually. People who understand what it means have
usually travelled in circles where gay people are generally
accepted; and people who don't, usually haven't. So you could
say, "Oh, he's a confirmed bachelor" in mixed company, and those
"in the know" would understand that he's gay, and the rest would
just assume he had no interest in getting married. In either
case, people would stop trying to fix him up with marriageable
young women, and no one's feathers would get ruffled.
I remember once at a job, someone (with other co-workers standing
nearby) asked if I had ever been married. I said no, that I was
a confirmed bachelor, "in the British meaning of that phrase."
The intern who asked was left blissfully in the dark, while
another co-worker applauded delightedly---I was able to come out
to him, but not make it an issue or a topic for gossip among the
interns. So it was very handy code indeed.
.:. Craig
Kal Alexander
>(Imported snip for brevity)
>
> The Morse Code was pretty generally known at one time and yet it
> retained a certain value.
>
>_________________________________
It just seemed counter-productive to hide being gay behind a code
most people seem to realize is code for being gay. Apparently there
are some who don't know it, though. I knew the phrase carried the
possible connotation, but I didn't know it was widely used.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
[deletions]
> It just seemed counter-productive to hide being gay behind a code
> most people seem to realize is code for being gay. Apparently there
> are some who don't know it, though. I knew the phrase carried the
> possible connotation, but I didn't know it was widely used.
>
Code words are strictly quaint. "Gay" started as a code word, but it's now
the term of choice in general use. Other code words and symbols -- friend of
Dorothy, lavender, pink triangles, rainbows, camping it up, lambdas, etc. --
are themselves camp. The gay world is no longer an underworld and has
precious little need of a special cant. (Code words are to be differentiated
from slang and cultural references.)
Speaking in modern American terms, the only significant population using the
phrase "confirmed bachelor" to hide gayness is that of editors and
journalists. A lot of newspapers are still often reluctant to be direct
about gayness. Obituary writers, for example, still refer to the lover of a
deceased gay person as a "longtime companion".
Anyone who is still in the closet, and gawd help them, is not going to be
playing word games. They're going to be in full-tilt denial.
Now days the real wielders of code words are the people who hate homosexuals
and homosexuality. They use code words like "choice," "special rights",
"lifestyle", "flaunting", "protecting children", "family", "sexual
preference", "love the sinner, hate the sin", and on and on, to camouflage
their hateful bigotry.
Bluegenie2
"Frank R.A.J. Maloney" <fr...@blarg.net> wrote in message
news:vb6df1e...@corp.supernews.com...
But maybe this is like something else I thought about a bit ago. Maybe gays
can use these words to describe each other and it is fine, but if a straight
person uses them to describe a gay person, tthen it is not okay.
I'm from the south so what I am about to say may not be the case everywhere.
Also, do not take this as me being prejudiced, because I am not. This is
just something I have observed.
A black person can call another black person 'nigger' and it is okay. But a
white person has hell to pay if they call a black person 'nigger'.
A southern person can call another southern person 'redneck' and it is
usually okay. But if a northern person calls a southern person 'redneck'
then it is not okay.
Just a couple of things I have observed during the course of my life :)
Oh and being southern myself, I can tell you that the term 'redneck' is not
a derogatory term, even tho some use it that way. It comes from hard
workers who work in the field and their necks get red :)
--
http://www.bg2designs.com/index.html
Heynony
> They use code words like "choice," "special rights",
> "lifestyle", "flaunting", "protecting children", "family", "sexual
> preference", "love the sinner, hate the sin", and on and on, to camouflage
> their hateful bigotry.
Absolutely. Any time I hear someone use words like "choice" or
"lifestyle" or "family" I know I'm in the presence of a bigot.
But the biggest giveaway is the word "the." Hitler's favorite word. You
can pick out a right-winger in an instant by that single word.
Calvin Rice
> Code words are strictly quaint. "Gay" started as a code word, but it's now
When did it start, actually? Going by the fact that the word 'gay' appears
somewhere in nearly every Broadway musical since Oklahoma! or earlier,
but not being slipped into other forms of entertainment like radio, TV, or the
movies until much later, when did the New York crowd adopt it as a code word?
(from Carousel)
...
So I'm shippin' off to sea,
Where life is gay and free,
And a feller can flip
A hook in the hip of a whale.
Blow high, blow low!
A-whalin' we will go!
We'll go a-whalin', a-sailin' away,
Away we'll go,
Blow me high and low!
...
(C 1945, Oscar Hammerstein II)
-cr
Bob
Kal Alexander wrote:
>
> >
> > The phrase as a euphemism for homosexual male was used throughout
> > most of the 20th century, but became very popular in the U.S. in
> > the 1940s and '50s. For many decades in England, the Times of
> > London in their obituaries would use the expressions "he never
> > married" for heterosexual bachelors, and "confirmed bachelor" as
> > a code for being gay. And according to AsiaWeek, It's still the
> > term of choice in many Asian countries where English is spoken,
> > since gay people there face terrible discrimination
> > (http://pathfinder.com/asiaweek/98/0807/cs1.html).
> >
> > .:. Craig
>
> It seems like this 'code' is rather well known. How can it
> be of any value?
>
>
It prevents lawsuits for defamation of character and libel.
Bob
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
news:22680de.03050...@posting.google.com...
We've kicked this around more than once on r.a.m.p-f. Check the archives for
a discussion about Cary Grant in _Bringing Up Baby_ saying: "Because I just
went gay all of a sudden!"
darr...@aol.com
> news:fQFsa.1234537$yn2.1...@post-03.news.easynews.com...
>
> [deletions]
>
> > It just seemed counter-productive to hide being gay behind a code
> > most people seem to realize is code for being gay. Apparently there
> > are some who don't know it, though. I knew the phrase carried the
> > possible connotation, but I didn't know it was widely used.> >>
> Code words are strictly quaint. "Gay" started as a code word, but it's now
> the term of choice in general use. Other code words and symbols -- friend of
> Dorothy, lavender, pink triangles, rainbows, camping it up, lambdas, etc. --
> are themselves camp. The gay world is no longer an underworld and has
> precious little need of a special cant. (Code words are to be differentiated
> from slang and cultural references.)
My favorite "discreet word" (not anymore!eh) has always been
"FAYGELEH" (pronounced FAY-geh-leh, rhymes with "may bella"). eheee
Yiddish (aka Yinglish, mixture of High German & Hebrew) slang for
homosexual: taken from the German diminutive of Vogel: "bird." Also
used to describe "a girl's name." -D, NYC "I really do not speak
Yiddish - ah, maybe a bisl." (a little) - COLIN POWELL
Bluegenie2
Well I personally do not think that line was referring to anything
homosexual because of when the movie was made. But to be fair I decided to
do a little research on when and how gay came to mean homosexual. Here are
some links I found :)
http://members.tripod.com/~HeteroGirl4GayRights/weekly5.html
http://www.gaymidlands.org/facts.html
http://electrolicious.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=228
http://www.outsports.com/outreach/virginia.htm
(kind of funny)
But it does seem as if 'gay' has been the word of choice for over 40 years.
I would still prefer to think that back in the 40's and 50's when the word
was used in so many movies, that it was meant to mean 'happy or joyful' :)
Plus older children's books had the word 'gay' in them meaning happy. I
know my son used to watch some old tv shows using the word and having it
mean happy. He didn't know any better and announced in McDonalds once that
he was 'so gay', lol. We then informed him what gay means today :)
Calvin Rice
> Well I personally do not think that line was referring to anything
> homosexual because of when the movie was made.
> But it does seem as if 'gay' has been the word of choice for over 40 years.
> I would still prefer to think that back in the 40's and 50's when the word
> was used in so many movies, that it was meant to mean 'happy or joyful' :)
I agree, and that was the meaning in Carousel, but considering how often the
word has appeared in Broadway musicals, I thought it might have been an
ongoing game to put in double entendres that would have their second meanings
intended for gays. Whether Hammerstein was playing such a game, or was simply
naive or in the dark, I don't know.
If I can recall more specific examples, I'll post them. One that comes to
mind is in The Fantasticks (1960), off-Broadway, where the girl exclaims,
"La, how gay" when she is being shown tempting visions, if I remember correctly,
by the Narrator.
My point though, trying to be clear, is that the word always had a primary
innocent meaning that fit the play's plot (I don't remember the word in
movies, so can't comment on them), but also a double meaning meant to
entertain those in the know.
-cr
Bluegenie2
Point well taken and I actually learned something from all this too. So it
can't be all bad, lol.
Nicholas Dean
"Bob" <chil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3EB27167...@ix.netcom.com...
Damn straight ;) - I remember devoutly het guys being described that way
when I
was a kid in the 60's, but by (at latest) the 80's it was absolutely code
for gay.
I believe though, that "confirmed batchelor" meant exactly that in the old
days
w/o a reason applied to it, either straight or gay (i.e. too many women or
none
at all). Living language y'know - it was sort of a game to figure out the
code back
in the 70s, when I was in Jr. High especially (it seemed to be an
*important* game
then).
--
mndean at pacbell net
Calvin Rice
who lives
with women, but (with a little bit of luck) never marries them, has
not been mentioned.
I know he's fictional, but what can we say about Henry Higgins in
Pygmalion and
My Fair Lady? Did Shaw mean for him, a 'confirmed old bachelor' to be
a closet
gay? Alan Jay Lerner, who changed the ending so that Eliza came back,
assumed
he was heterosexual, apparently. In both plays, Higgins' mother was
well aware
of his fussy ways. Were we supposed to read something into
Pickering's being
a guest in Higgins' house for a while? Shaw was heterosexual, it
appears, but
also extremely liberal-minded for his time. Was he trying to tell us
something?
-cr
Stephen Cooke
You could say the same thing about Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson,
although Watson eventually marries and leaves Baker Street. And the only
woman Holmes ever shows any interest in, or rather "The Woman" is Irene
Adler, with whom he's never actually romatically involved.
Of course Billy Wilder sends all this up in The Private Life of Sherlock
Homes, with varying degrees of success.
swac
Dawn Taylor
<am...@chebucto.ns.ca> announced in front of God and everybody:
(RE: "confirmed bachelor")
>You could say the same thing about Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson,
>although Watson eventually marries and leaves Baker Street. And the only
>woman Holmes ever shows any interest in, or rather "The Woman" is Irene
>Adler, with whom he's never actually romatically involved.
There is, however, Laurie King's excellent Mary Russell books ("The
Beekeeper's Apprentice," "The Moor," etc.) in which the semi-retired
Holmes takes on a brilliant female apprentice and eventually marries
her.
Dawn
M.L.
>> > > Code words are strictly quaint. "Gay" started as a code word, but it's
>> now
>> > > the term of choice in general use. ...
>> We've kicked this around more than once on r.a.m.p-f. Check the archives
>for
>> a discussion about Cary Grant in _Bringing Up Baby_ saying: "Because I
>just
>> went gay all of a sudden!"
>Well I personally do not think that line was referring to anything
>homosexual because of when the movie was made.
The context in which the word was used in Bringing Up Baby (Cary Grant
was dressed in Kate Hepburn's housecoat) left no doubt that "gay"
meant homosexual.
Stephen Cooke
Blasphemy! Well, maybe not, but I don't know if I buy that notion.
Then again, the only non-Doyle books I've enjoyed are Nicholas Meyer's two
Holmes novels (Seven Per-Cent Solution and West End Horror) and John
Gardner's two novels written from Moriarty's perspective.
swac
Dawn Taylor
<am...@chebucto.ns.ca> announced in front of God and everybody:
You ought to give these a try -- they're very, very good. "The
Beekeeper's Apprentice" is the first in the series. There's a nice
review of them on the Bookslut site:
http://www.bookslut.com/columns/1202/mystery2.htm
Dawn
Bob
<dawn...@pacifier.com> wrote:
Why would anyone want to read someone else's take on Doyle's work? What's
the point? Its only fanwank at the end of the day no matter how well its
written.
Bob
Bluegenie2
"M.L." <mel2000r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qu3bbvku7jhf053oo...@4ax.com...
But here is something else to think about. When did you first see the
movie? Was it when it first came out or sometime in the last 10 years?
Could it be that your perception of what was meant is because of how the
word is used now. The movie was made in 1938 (I didn't realize it was that
long ago, thank you IMDB). And of course I was not even thought of at that
time, but if you could find someone who saw the movie when it first came
out, do you think they would agree with your perception?
Just something to think about :)
Calvin Rice
> Why would anyone want to read someone else's take on Doyle's work? What's
> the point? Its only fanwank at the end of the day no matter how well its
> written.
Exactly, and the same goes for A. Ripley's 'Scarlett', and other sequels
not written by the original authors.
Extending the concept, couldn't the same be said for movies based on the
works of others, when the original works are highly regarded, or extremely
popular?
-cr
maja...@majasoft.net
"Frank R.A.J. Maloney" <fr...@blarg.net> píąe v diskusním příspěvku
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scot...@gmail.com
> "megans" <meg...@drizzle.com> wrote in message news:<1051416300.618262@yasure>...
> I really have no intention of degrading Earl Holiman...I'm watching a Twillight Zone right now and he was brilliant...but...in the day he did ask for for my phone number. In truth, I was flattered, but not interested. He was with other celebs... Angie Dickenson...Arte Johnson and Ruth Buzzi...and it happened more than once at our favorite Thai restaurant in N. Hollywood.
sallymos...@gmail.com
valerie...@gmail.com
It may simply be a case that Mr. Holliman feared the same happening to his wife and children should he marry.
I personally know people who have lived their lives in fear of what happened to them as children happening to their own children, so this is not so far fetched an idea in Mr. Holliman's case.
While I understand that "confirmed bachelor" has been code for being gay, it's also the correct term for men who are comoletely straight, but never chose to marry, for whatever reason.
And another little known or published fact, Mr. Holliman is a Republican and votes to the right.
Finally, let me wish you a Happy 90th Birthday, Mr. Holliman! May you have many more!
cochra...@gmail.com
trof...@gmail.com
> "megans" <meg...@drizzle.com> wrote in message news:<1051416300.618262@yasure>...
>
> > the star bios and a couple of web pages on IMDB and other places.
> > One declared that "Holliman is a self-confessed confirmed bachelor."
> > heard mention of such....
> > And here's a little tidbit: two of the cast of "Giant" went on to play major
> > roles in William Castle horror films: Carolyn Craig, who played Elizabeth
> > Taylor's sister, was a star of the original "House on Haunted Hill." And
> > Judith Evelyn, who played Elizabeth Taylor's mother in "Giant," was the mute
> > gal in "The Tingler" who enjoys what was billed as the screen's "first
> > full-color blood bath."!> Megans>>
>
> The late, great James Dean would have been able to tell us!eheee Then
> again, Dean is said to have been bi-curious. And as Andrew Dice Clay
> (b. Silverstein, NYC's very own sweet Jew) once said, "There's no such
> thing as bi-sexual. You either suck d*ck or you don't!" ehe -D, NYC
> "Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team" - BILLY JOEL
> (NY's very own sweet Jew - one of the top 100 selling artists of
> all-time)
..............................................
Getting back to Earl Holliman, if he in fact gay, he destroys ant preconceived stereotype of what a gay man is supposed to look like, actlike, or "feel like."
He's the type that if you didn't know better, you'd assume was married, maybe with children.
All this goes against sterotying a person's sexuality by their appearance, although admittedly there are cases where the projection is very evident.
Earl Holliman was just a rare case who went against the grain in persona.
Lewis
> I like Earl Holliman. It hurts me to think hes gay.
--
'The only reason we're still alive now is that we're more fun alive than
dead,' said Granny's voice behind her. --Lords and Ladies
Lewis
--
They were the observers of the operation of the universe, its clerks,
its auditors. They saw to it that things spun and rocks fell. And they
believed that for a thing to exist it had to have a position in time and
space. Humanity had arrived as a nasty shock. Humanity practically was
things that didn't have a position in time and space, such as
imagination, pity, hope, history and belief. Take those away and all you
had was an ape that fell out of trees a lot. --The Thief of Time