Is Farah Khan that good choreography? (+Helen)
Seth
It just struck me after having watched several movies in which the dancing
was choreographed by Farah Khan that it really doesn't look that great.
For example, for such a great song as "Chaiyya Chaiyya", the choreography is
not really as memorable as it should be -- granted it's on a train which
limits the scope somewhat, but surely this is an opportunity to create some
dense, sharp dancing rather than the (seemingly) random head-rolling and
arm-waving she employs. Having said that, I think Jiya Jale and Satrangi Re
were *at times* choreographed quite well, but once again, they weren't
anything special in my book.
Ditto Ms Khan's efforts in Kuch Kuch...; for the title song, there was not a
lot of dancing, and a lot of running and falling over in grassy meadows
(could be that this was Karan Johar's insistence, and if so, fine, but...),
the male dancing in Saajan-ji Ghar Aaye was jerky and almost clumsy.
Which is really my point -- what Farah Khan (and Ganesh too) both seem to be
doing is throwing together disparate moves that are hard to make the
transition between. So while the choreography may be lively (e.g. Chamma
Chamma, which I think is Ganesh's), it's hardly graceful.
Even Shiamak Davar's more western 'Le Gaii Le Gaii' turned out more graceful
than Dholna or the other Farah Khan choreographed songs (again, Dholna
suffers from the running in fields issue ;-).
While I'm on the topic -- I managed to see Ganga Jumna the other night, and
the dancing in Helen's special-appearance mujra number was faintly
bizarre -- I've never seen such a collection of jump-skip-and-hop moves in a
dance before!
best wishes,
Seth
Seth
<snip>
: What did you think of the choreography in 'Lagaan'?
I didn't like Mitwa at all. I'm not even that fond of the song, and Aamir
Khan (and even Gracy) semi-jumping around in a half-squat-position for the
chorus didn't really do anything for me. : )
I did find Radha Kaise Na Jale quite entertaining to watch -- I think Gracy
Singh did a good job there, and the whole dance was quite nicely
choreographed from an overall point of view (i.e. use of space & supporting
dancers).
<snip>
: Alas, Shiamak only has about two steps, one of which is that very
Mmm, yes. I remember being quite wowed by the dancing in Le Gaii Le Gaii; if
nothing else it's quite a spectacular start to the film, and I don't think
he did a bad job at all. But then watching Kahin Aag Lage from Taal and
thinking it was all a bit repeatist.
Also the sliding-sideways-by-twisting-your-feet-back and forth seems awfully
familiar. Perhaps his spirit voice is Michael Jackson? ; )
<snip>
: Oh, there's plenty more where that came from. Even though it's charming
: (well, it's Helen - what else could it be?)
I was kind of expecting something reasonably graceful, perhaps like Thare
Rahiyo from Pakeezah -- and I *know* Meena Kumari couldn't do Kathak, but
still, it looks less awkward than Helen kicking her legs in the air : ) Mind
you, I have issues with Salaam-e Ishq from Muqaddar ka Sikandar too : )
As for Helen -- she is endearing; there's something not terribly convincing
about her pouty gypsy-queen dance Mehbooba Mehbooba in Sholay. She looks
rather like a naughty schoolgirl trying to be sexy, and only getting half
the way : ) Still though, she moves like nothing else in that movie!
best wishes,
Seth
Gulgulii
'Satrangi Re' from Dil Se. And she made Hrithik's career with Ek Pal
Ka Jeena... Too bad no one can find any new steps for him!
Saroj Khan seems to have peaked in the early 90s. I thought her
career best was the 'Channe ke khet mein' song from Anjaam. Sameer
Tanna and Arsh Tanna did a really good job on "Dhol Baaje" from HDDCS
but again, Saroj Khan mucked up the rest. (And WHAT was she smoking
when she choreographed Devdas? Aargh, I've never seen good music so
badly failed by the dance steps!) Maybe Radha Kaise Na Jale (which I
thought was pretty good) marks a new (and better) phase in her career.
Someone I think is really underrated is the guy who choreographed the
songs in Jeans (Paavam Raju Sundharam, I think?). I loved the Tauba
Tauba and Kehta Yeh Dil pieces.
Somebody said in the other thread that Aishwarya Rai can't dance, and
it's clear that all her pieces are "over choreographed"? I think
that's bizarre -- all these pieces are strictly choreographed, and she
always does a great job on the more classically-inspired numbers. She
outdanced Madhuri in Dola re Dola, though I hate to admit it. :(
Mamta
> Mmm, yes. I remember being quite wowed by the dancing in Le Gaii Le Gaii;
if
> nothing else it's quite a spectacular start to the film, and I don't think
> he did a bad job at all.
Yes, I really liked the choreography to this song, it was different to other
dances and KK performed it really well.
Mamta
Helen's songs and that decade's songs too and she was dancing to 'Mehbooba
oh Mehbooba' and there was a choreographer dancing with her. I know I don't
know his name, but he is my favourite. He would be good in choreographing
for Hrithik Roshan. The show was I think 'Indian girls', where Aish was
dancing classical, Raveena was doing the eighties and Mahima was doing the
seventies, anyone remember anything?
Seth
<snip>
: In re Pakeezah, did they not use a real dancer - as a Meena double - for
: the bits in which her face doesn't show? Or is that just a rumour?
Apparently Meena K. ran out of Thare Rahiyo in a strop because she couldn't
do the dancing. When they replaced her with a kathak pro, she spent ages
showing her replacement how to walk with her gait and her movements. I don't
know to what extent the dancer was used instead of Meena K. It all seems to
be Meena K. in Inhi Logon Ne. She's not really dancing in Chalte Chalte, and
I think at the end of Teer-e Nazar, it must be the dancer.
: What are your issues with M. ka S.? I can't remember a thing about the
: actual dancing;
Oh nothing really -- I guess I'm quite a die-hard kathak-in-mujras fan, so
Rekha's latka-jhatkas weren't really my cup of tea. Having said all that, I
think Dil Cheez in Umrao Jaan was fabulous. She did a good job with In
Aankhon ki Masti as well.
Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
I really loved Kaahe Chhed Mohe in Devdas (which was one of the few things I
did like, I think!)
best wishes,
Seth
Mamta
"Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ak3dl0$rsq$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hey there,
>
> <snip>
>
> : In re Pakeezah, did they not use a real dancer - as a Meena double - for
> : the bits in which her face doesn't show? Or is that just a rumour?
>
> Apparently Meena K. ran out of Thare Rahiyo in a strop because she
couldn't
> do the dancing. When they replaced her with a kathak pro, she spent ages
> showing her replacement how to walk with her gait and her movements. I
don't
> know to what extent the dancer was used instead of Meena K. It all seems
to
> be Meena K. in Inhi Logon Ne. She's not really dancing in Chalte Chalte,
and
> I think at the end of Teer-e Nazar, it must be the dancer.
>
>
> : What are your issues with M. ka S.? I can't remember a thing about the
> : actual dancing;
>
> Oh nothing really -- I guess I'm quite a die-hard kathak-in-mujras fan, so
> Rekha's latka-jhatkas weren't really my cup of tea. Having said all that,
I
> think Dil Cheez in Umrao Jaan was fabulous. She did a good job with In
> Aankhon ki Masti as well.
Yes she did.
> Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
>
Not from the top of my head, but weren't Reena Roy, Padmini Kolapuri, Sri
Devi and some more Kathak dancers and if so, did they not perform in some
films?
Shishir Yerramilli
> In article <ajufjs$41$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hi
>
>
> Well, hi. Interesting message - it's nice to see a post about something
> as wholesomely amusing as inept choreography!
>
>
> > It just struck me after having watched several movies in which the dancing
> > was choreographed by Farah Khan that it really doesn't look that great.
>
>
that glorified aerobics instructor Shiamak Davar.
Seth
best wishes,
Seth
"Mamta" <mamta...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:jVl99.135$gR4.14692@newsfep2-gui...
: > Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
Karen Lofstrom
Sandhya and Gopikrishna, I think. I don't know whether it's good dancing
or not, since my knowledge of Indian dance would fit in a thimble. Has
anyone else watched this?
As for the crouching postures used in some dances -- recently in the
Krishna-Radha dance in Lagaan -- I like them in my simple-minded way. I am
always impressed when a dancer can get down and up with grace and no
evidence of strain. It seems even more a defiance of gravity than Western
ballet.
But perhaps I'm just used to that from watching hula every now and then.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is a lot of U.S. history here." -- my mother
Shishir Yerramilli
> Does anyone remember one show where Sonali Bendre was performing alot of
> Helen's songs and that decade's songs too and she was dancing to 'Mehbooba
> oh Mehbooba' and there was a choreographer dancing with her.
I dont know about the show but Sonali Bendre danced for the music
video of a remix of R.D. Burman song 'Piya tu ab to aaja' in 1996 sung
again by Asha Bhosle.It was pretty clever where Sonali Bendre is a
mannequin a department store becomes alive at night.She was clearly
tailormade for that role!Jokes aside,I like Sonali very much!
I know I don't
> know his name, but he is my favourite.
He was probably either Ahmad Khan or Prasad(Prabhu Deva's brother).
Ritu
> : the bits in which her face doesn't show? Or is that just a rumour?
>
> Apparently Meena K. ran out of Thare Rahiyo in a strop because she couldn't
> do the dancing. When they replaced her with a kathak pro, she spent ages
> showing her replacement how to walk with her gait and her movements. I don't
> know to what extent the dancer was used instead of Meena K. It all seems to
> be Meena K. in Inhi Logon Ne. She's not really dancing in Chalte Chalte, and
> I think at the end of Teer-e Nazar, it must be the dancer.
The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
Johnny Mera Naam fame. I too think she steps in only in Teer-e-nazar.
Chalte Chalte can hardly be called a dance. Though is very graceful.
Meena Kumari even though she was intolerably weepy was very graceful.
CHalte Chalte is carried soley by that virtue of hers. BTW does anyone
remember Meena Kumari's pathetic attempt at Kathak in 'Ek hi raasta'
in the Hemant Kumar gem 'Chali gori pee se milan ko chali'.. She is
really bad. Glad she did not do a repeat attempt in Pakeezah.
>
>
> : What are your issues with M. ka S.? I can't remember a thing about the
> : actual dancing;
>
> Oh nothing really -- I guess I'm quite a die-hard kathak-in-mujras fan, so
> Rekha's latka-jhatkas weren't really my cup of tea. Having said all that, I
> think Dil Cheez in Umrao Jaan was fabulous. She did a good job with In
> Aankhon ki Masti as well.
You know what... I felt Rekha could not get rid of her innate
Rekhaisms even in Umrao Jaan. Even though the songs were choreographed
with a lot of grace the presence of Rekha in it somehow spoilt it for
me. And if you watch closely you can see the effort it is taking for
her to keep her latkas and jhatkas in check. Rekha has never featured
high on my list of dancers.
>
> Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
>
> I really loved Kaahe Chhed Mohe in Devdas (which was one of the few things I
> did like, I think!)
The only genuine kathak I can think of in Hindi Films is Jhanak Jhanak
Payal baaje which is based on the same theme. Though again Sandhya,
inspite of being highly acclaimed as a dancer was too 'nautanki-chhap'
for my tastes.
There is a good Kathak(IIRC) based dance in the Gulzar-Hema film,
Kinara on the song 'Meethe bol bole payaliya'. That's pretty well done
and yes, Hema unlike Rekha has the restraint of a classical dancer. I
don't know who choreographed it? Any idea?.
Also Waheeda Rehman (another very graceful dancer) in 'Raat bhi hai
kuch bheegi' in Mujhe Jeeno do had some moments of Kathak.
There are ofcourse lots of instances of Bharatnatyam thanks to the
southern heroines starting from Vyjayanthimala to Hema Malini. In the
older films the presence of Vyjayanthimala, Padmini or Ragini always
ensured one classical dance item in the film. The 50s was not
completely immune to item numbers ;-) why curse Raveena Tandon!
Coming to Lagan. I tend to agree with the opinion here. Mitwa was
first Rehman's failure and then the choreographer's. Rehman could not
get rid of the western rhythm in his system. So in a lot of places the
song sounds very fusion rather than earthy and folksy. For instance
every time the song returns to the Mukhda with the refrain 'Mitwa'
it's very western. So, with a beat like that any choreographer would
get confused. The song does not have that easy flow that folk songs do
subsequently the movements would end being jerky as well.
While on Ganga Jamuna, I don't know about the mujra number (don't
remember it) but the choreography and dancing by Dilip Kumar on 'Nain
lad jain hain toh manva ma kasak' is just too good. A very good
adaptation from UP Folk dances combined with good use of chorus
dancers. And Dilip Kumar is actually quite an effortless dancer. I had
quite enjoyed it.
Talking of Saroj Khan, can anyone think about any significant work she
did in the 70s? She has been associated with the 2 of the best
choreographed songs in Hindi Films 'Piya tose naina lage re' and
'Hoton mein aisi baat' as an assistant to Hiralal. So she should have
had some decent work later on. I think her downfall started with
Madhuri Dixit and Tezaab.
Cheers
Ritu
Shishir Yerramilli
> "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ak3dl0
>
> The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> Johnny Mera Naam fame.
I recently saw Johnny Mera Naam,the last time I saw it I was in the
Middle East and they had censored this song on TV.I cant beleive that
actresses were degraded in this fashion in the '60's!Even alleged
misogynists like David Lynch and Sergio Leone would never subject
their actresses to such humiliation!I am by no means a feminist but
Dev Anand and Goldie Anand are very sick people!
> You know what... I felt Rekha could not get rid of her innate
> Rekhaisms even in Umrao Jaan. Even though the songs were choreographed
> with a lot of grace the presence of Rekha in it somehow spoilt it for
> me. And if you watch closely you can see the effort it is taking for
> her to keep her latkas and jhatkas in check. Rekha has never featured
> high on my list of dancers.
The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
>
> >
> > Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
> >
> > I really loved Kaahe Chhed Mohe in Devdas (which was one of the few things I
> > did like, I think!)
>
> The only genuine kathak I can think of in Hindi Films is Jhanak Jhanak
> Payal baaje which is based on the same theme. Though again Sandhya,
> inspite of being highly acclaimed as a dancer was too 'nautanki-chhap'
> for my tastes.
Kamalahaasan did a great Kathak piece in Saagara Sangamam.Of course
this was never dubbed in Hindi.This was way before he was buffed up!
> There is a good Kathak(IIRC) based dance in the Gulzar-Hema film,
> Kinara on the song 'Meethe bol bole payaliya'. That's pretty well done
> and yes, Hema unlike Rekha has the restraint of a classical dancer. I
> don't know who choreographed it? Any idea?.
>
> Also Waheeda Rehman (another very graceful dancer) in 'Raat bhi hai
> kuch bheegi' in Mujhe Jeeno do had some moments of Kathak.
Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
caste.
>
> Coming to Lagan. I tend to agree with the opinion here. Mitwa was
> first Rehman's failure and then the choreographer's. Rehman could not
> get rid of the western rhythm in his system. So in a lot of places the
> song sounds very fusion rather than earthy and folksy. For instance
> every time the song returns to the Mukhda with the refrain 'Mitwa'
> it's very western. So, with a beat like that any choreographer would
> get confused. The song does not have that easy flow that folk songs do
> subsequently the movements would end being jerky as well.
Rehman is incredibly limited when it comes to rustic music.He
probably used up all his resources in Tamil and Telugu movies.
> Talking of Saroj Khan, can anyone think about any significant work she
> did in the 70s? She has been associated with the 2 of the best
> choreographed songs in Hindi Films 'Piya tose naina lage re' and
> 'Hoton mein aisi baat' as an assistant to Hiralal. So she should have
> had some decent work later on. I think her downfall started with
> Madhuri Dixit and Tezaab.
Hahaha!Many people consider that the pinnacle of her acheivements!
>
> Cheers
> Ritu
Ritu
> rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ak3dl0
>
> >
> > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> I recently saw Johnny Mera Naam,the last time I saw it I was in the
> Middle East and they had censored this song on TV.I cant beleive that
> actresses were degraded in this fashion in the '60's!Even alleged
> misogynists like David Lynch and Sergio Leone would never subject
> their actresses to such humiliation!I am by no means a feminist but
> Dev Anand and Goldie Anand are very sick people!
I agree the caberet in Johnny Mera Naam was in very bad taste. I think
Goldie Anand was suffering from his mid-life crisis by then. Chuppa
Rustom also has some scenes in poor taste with Bindu. Either he was
catering to the distributors or it was his own creative vision is not
known. Somehow I'd like to believe the latter because woman have been
treated with innate respect in the early Navketan films. They were
empancipated but dignified.
However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
>
>
> > You know what... I felt Rekha could not get rid of her innate
> > Rekhaisms even in Umrao Jaan. Even though the songs were choreographed
> > with a lot of grace the presence of Rekha in it somehow spoilt it for
> > me. And if you watch closely you can see the effort it is taking for
> > her to keep her latkas and jhatkas in check. Rekha has never featured
> > high on my list of dancers.
>
> The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
link to dance!
>
> > >
> > > Do you know of any other good kathak pieces in movies?
> > >
> > > I really loved Kaahe Chhed Mohe in Devdas (which was one of the few things I
> > > did like, I think!)
> >
> > The only genuine kathak I can think of in Hindi Films is Jhanak Jhanak
> > Payal baaje which is based on the same theme. Though again Sandhya,
> > inspite of being highly acclaimed as a dancer was too 'nautanki-chhap'
> > for my tastes.
>
> Kamalahaasan did a great Kathak piece in Saagara Sangamam.Of course
> this was never dubbed in Hindi.This was way before he was buffed up!
Kamalhassan and Kathak too? I thought he concentrated on Bharatnatyam.
He was trained in Bharatnatyam right?
>
>
> > There is a good Kathak(IIRC) based dance in the Gulzar-Hema film,
> > Kinara on the song 'Meethe bol bole payaliya'. That's pretty well done
> > and yes, Hema unlike Rekha has the restraint of a classical dancer. I
> > don't know who choreographed it? Any idea?.
> >
> > Also Waheeda Rehman (another very graceful dancer) in 'Raat bhi hai
> > kuch bheegi' in Mujhe Jeeno do had some moments of Kathak.
>
> Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
> caste.
How do you know? Is this documented anywhere? For what I have read
about her, her father was an officer in the Madras Presidency during
the British era and she took to films after her father's death.
> >
> > Coming to Lagan. I tend to agree with the opinion here. Mitwa was
> > first Rehman's failure and then the choreographer's. Rehman could not
> > get rid of the western rhythm in his system. So in a lot of places the
> > song sounds very fusion rather than earthy and folksy. For instance
> > every time the song returns to the Mukhda with the refrain 'Mitwa'
> > it's very western. So, with a beat like that any choreographer would
> > get confused. The song does not have that easy flow that folk songs do
> > subsequently the movements would end being jerky as well.
>
> Rehman is incredibly limited when it comes to rustic music.He
> probably used up all his resources in Tamil and Telugu movies.
Is his music genuinely rustic in these films? I think there is too
much of the western ethos in him. Those are his roots and he can never
break away from them compeletely. And yes, he's a lost cause for
mainstream folk based compositions because the south hangover is
really massive I see it even in Radha Kaise na Jale in Lagaan though
it's an attempt at UP Folk.
>
>
> > Talking of Saroj Khan, can anyone think about any significant work she
> > did in the 70s? She has been associated with the 2 of the best
> > choreographed songs in Hindi Films 'Piya tose naina lage re' and
> > 'Hoton mein aisi baat' as an assistant to Hiralal. So she should have
> > had some decent work later on. I think her downfall started with
> > Madhuri Dixit and Tezaab.
>
> Hahaha!Many people consider that the pinnacle of her acheivements!
Well, call me a purist or a snob but I have never been able to see the
aesthetics in the Madhuri Dixit-Saroj Khan combo. I find them
downright pedestrian. Starting from Tezaab to Dhak Dhak karne laga
(Beta) they are all not far from the class of Johnny Mera Naam.
I feel the 'Saroj Khan dancing style' that Madhuri developed denied
her a position amongst the serious dancers for ever. Like Rekha now
she too cannot restraint her urge for the latkas and jhatakas however
serious the dance number.
Cheers
Ritu
Shishir Yerramilli
> yshi...@hotmail.com (Shishir Yerramilli) wrote in message news:<370a0b0.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ak3dl0
>
> > >
> > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
Anand directed films!
>
> >
> >
> > > You know what... I felt Rekha could not get rid of her innate
> > > Rekhaisms even in Umrao Jaan. Even though the songs were choreographed
> > > with a lot of grace the presence of Rekha in it somehow spoilt it for
> > > me. And if you watch closely you can see the effort it is taking for
> > > her to keep her latkas and jhatkas in check. Rekha has never featured
> > > high on my list of dancers.
> >
> > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
>
> Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> link to dance!
>
Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
> >
> > Kamalahaasan did a great Kathak piece in Saagara Sangamam.Of course
> > this was never dubbed in Hindi.This was way before he was buffed up!
>
> Kamalhassan and Kathak too? I thought he concentrated on Bharatnatyam.
> He was trained in Bharatnatyam right?
Yes.Though I doubt if he was highly trained as
PrabhuDeva.Kamalahaasan dropped out of school in the 7th grade to join
some kind of gymnastics group.
>
> >
> >
> > > There is a good Kathak(IIRC) based dance in the Gulzar-Hema film,
> > > Kinara on the song 'Meethe bol bole payaliya'. That's pretty well done
> > > and yes, Hema unlike Rekha has the restraint of a classical dancer. I
> > > don't know who choreographed it? Any idea?.
> > >
> > > Also Waheeda Rehman (another very graceful dancer) in 'Raat bhi hai
> > > kuch bheegi' in Mujhe Jeeno do had some moments of Kathak.
> >
> > Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
> > caste.
>
> How do you know? Is this documented anywhere? For what I have read
> about her, her father was an officer in the Madras Presidency during
> the British era and she took to films after her father's death.
>
Waheeda Rahman and Jayaprada are from Rajahmudry A.P. ,same town as
my mother.My mother told me of their background.In fact there is a
photo of my mother performing Bharatanatyam with Jayaprada when they
were about 11.She may be wrong about Waheeda Rahman.
\
> >
> > Rehman is incredibly limited when it comes to rustic music.He
> > probably used up all his resources in Tamil and Telugu movies.
>
>
> Is his music genuinely rustic in these films?
Very rarely.
I think there is too
> much of the western ethos in him. Those are his roots and he can never
> break away from them compeletely.'
He was trained in Trinity College ,London.He used to be in a rock
band with Suresh Peter.
> And yes, he's a lost cause for
> mainstream folk based compositions because the south hangover is
> really massive I see it even in Radha Kaise na Jale in Lagaan though
> it's an attempt at UP Folk.
Actually Rahman is a lot less south flavored than say Illayaraja(a
superior composer and performer but very regional)
> >
> > Hahaha!Many people consider that the pinnacle of her acheivements!
>
> Well, call me a purist or a snob but I have never been able to see the
> aesthetics in the Madhuri Dixit-Saroj Khan combo. I find them
> downright pedestrian. Starting from Tezaab to Dhak Dhak karne laga
> (Beta) they are all not far from the class of Johnny Mera Naam.
>
> I feel the 'Saroj Khan dancing style' that Madhuri developed denied
> her a position amongst the serious dancers for ever. Like Rekha now
> she too cannot restraint her urge for the latkas and jhatakas however
> serious the dance number.
Was never fond of Rekha!I dont see her appeal.Pakistanis were
always wild about her though!If they only knew she prefers clams to
sausages!
>
> Cheers
> Ritu
yeskay
>
> rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > yshi...@hotmail.com (Shishir Yerramilli) wrote in message news:<370a0b0.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ak3dl0
> >
> > > >
> > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> >
>
> > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
>
> Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> Anand directed films!
>
Yes, Ritu being a one-eyed fan amazingly gave Dev Anand credit for all the
good music in his movies (tho' he doesn't have anything to do with it at all),
while anything bad like the above, he is just an innocent, naive actor and
does what his director asks him to do!
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > link to dance!
> >
>
> Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
Why do you say Rekha and Madhuri are what you say they are?
Ritu
> rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > yshi...@hotmail.com (Shishir Yerramilli) wrote in message news:<370a0b0.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > "Seth" <s4...@seth.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ak3dl0
>
> > > >
> > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> >
>
> > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
>
> Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> Anand directed films!
Dev Anand was actually a passive participant in this film. During the
Johnny Mera Naam days Dev Anand actually did not involve himself
creatively with films he did. esp outside films (Johnny Mera Naam was
not a Navketan film). During those days he says he used to be
interested only in his own performance and the music department. The
Johnny Mera Naam product is entirely Goldie's brainchild. It's not
fair to blame Dev Anand for it. And as far as Dev Anand's later films
are concerned. I find most of them hilarious rather than offending.
> > >
> > >
> > > > You know what... I felt Rekha could not get rid of her innate
> > > > Rekhaisms even in Umrao Jaan. Even though the songs were choreographed
> > > > with a lot of grace the presence of Rekha in it somehow spoilt it for
> > > > me. And if you watch closely you can see the effort it is taking for
> > > > her to keep her latkas and jhatkas in check. Rekha has never featured
> > > > high on my list of dancers.
> > >
> > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > link to dance!
> >
>
> Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
Uff, there we go again! Shishir, do **you** secretly work for
Stardust? ;-)
>
>
> > >
> > > Kamalahaasan did a great Kathak piece in Saagara Sangamam.Of course
> > > this was never dubbed in Hindi.This was way before he was buffed up!
> >
> > Kamalhassan and Kathak too? I thought he concentrated on Bharatnatyam.
> > He was trained in Bharatnatyam right?
>
> Yes.Though I doubt if he was highly trained as
> PrabhuDeva.Kamalahaasan dropped out of school in the 7th grade to join
> some kind of gymnastics group.
What dance form did Prabhudeva train in? Waise, personally speaking I
don't think much of Prabhu Deva from what I have seen of his dance. He
has amazing flexibility and fluidity but absolutely no form. I
wouldn't treat his dance as as art form at all. It could do better as
an entry for the floor exercises in the gymnastics event!
> > >
> > > Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
> > > caste.
> >
> > How do you know? Is this documented anywhere? For what I have read
> > about her, her father was an officer in the Madras Presidency during
> > the British era and she took to films after her father's death.
> >
>
> Waheeda Rahman and Jayaprada are from Rajahmudry A.P. ,same town as
> my mother.My mother told me of their background.In fact there is a
> photo of my mother performing Bharatanatyam with Jayaprada when they
> were about 11.She may be wrong about Waheeda Rahman.
Probable about Jayaprada but I do think it's untrue about Waheeda
Rehman. Reasons:
a) The main reason - Since Devdasis were temples dancers and attached
to the temple they would have to be Hindu. It would not be possible
for a muslim to be a Devdasi.
b) Generally such details tend to come out in the open. For e.g it was
a well known fact that Nargis was the daughter of Jaddanbai who was a
'baiji' singer. More so since Waheeda Rehman played the role of a
Devdaasi in 'Guide' such a detail would have been diffcult to escape.
>
> \
> > >
> > > Rehman is incredibly limited when it comes to rustic music.He
> > > probably used up all his resources in Tamil and Telugu movies.
> >
> >
> > Is his music genuinely rustic in these films?
>
> Very rarely.
>
> I think there is too
> > much of the western ethos in him. Those are his roots and he can never
> > break away from them compeletely.'
>
> He was trained in Trinity College ,London.He used to be in a rock
> band with Suresh Peter.
Aha.. that's the reason. Yes, Rehman is great in his niche. But then
that's it. He's a niche composer. Does not have the versatality.
>
> > And yes, he's a lost cause for
> > mainstream folk based compositions because the south hangover is
> > really massive I see it even in Radha Kaise na Jale in Lagaan though
> > it's an attempt at UP Folk.
>
> Actually Rahman is a lot less south flavored than say Illayaraja(a
> superior composer and performer but very regional)
Yes, but then Illayaraja does not make many mainstream forays.
Carnatic music I feel by itself makes for great hearing but when it
comes to mainstream music it really does not lend itself to fusion as
easily hindustani classical does.
Cheers
Ritu
Ritu
> > > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> > > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
> >
> > Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> > input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> > Anand directed films!
>
> Yes, Ritu being a one-eyed fan amazingly gave Dev Anand credit for all the
> good music in his movies (tho' he doesn't have anything to do with it at all),
> while anything bad like the above, he is just an innocent, naive actor and
> does what his director asks him to do!
Not fair Yeskay, why one-eyed? Gives me a sense of Deja vu.. 'one-eyed
jack' :-) ?
While on Dev Saab being innocent, well I reiterate. Dev Saab was
nowhere in the Johnny Mera Naam caberet so now it's not even about
'what the director tells **him** to do'. He's just not there at all.
While on the music if I am a one-eyed fan of Uncle Dev I am a 2 eyes,
2 ear, one brain and one large large heart fan of Old-Man Burman also.
I wouldn't dream of taking credit away from poor Old Man and
depositing it on Dev Saab's undeserving door step. But the fact is
that Dev Saab always attended music sittings and had a say in the kind
of sound he wanted for the films he acted in. SD Burman also displayed
a completely different aspect of himself when he composed for him. Dev
Anand and Vijay Anand had the knack of choosing the best of Dada
Burman's offerings.
A fine example would be the song 'Yeh Dil na hota bechara' from Jewel
Thief. Guru Dutt had rejected this tune telling Dada Burman that it
was just not a 'hit' tune. Dada Burman had offered this tune as the
title song of 'Baharen phir bhi aayengi'(which was ultimately scored
by OP Nayyer). Dev Anand took the same tune for Jewel Thief and yes,
it was a hit. So, doesn't Dev Saab get the credit for choosing those
tunes?
> > > >
> > > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> > >
> > > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > > link to dance!
> > >
> >
> > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
>
> Why do you say Rekha and Madhuri are what you say they are?
Shishir, waiting for an answer to that one!
Cheers
Ritu
Raghu Jetley
"Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:8777cccd.02090...@posting.google.com...
> > > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
I think.
Shishir Yerramilli
> > > > >
> > > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> > >
>
> > > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
> >
> > Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> > input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> > Anand directed films!
>
> Dev Anand was actually a passive participant in this film. During the
> Johnny Mera Naam days Dev Anand actually did not involve himself
> creatively with films he did. esp outside films (Johnny Mera Naam was
> not a Navketan film).
Oh come on!You mentioned Goldie Anand was suffering from a midlife
crisis during this film but Dev Anand wasnt?Isnt it true that Goldie
stopped directing because of constant 'interference' from Dev Anand
like Kamalahaasan does today?!
During those days he says he used to be
> interested only in his own performance and the music department. The
> Johnny Mera Naam product is entirely Goldie's brainchild. It's not
> fair to blame Dev Anand for it. And as far as Dev Anand's later films
> are concerned. I find most of them hilarious rather than offending.
I find little humor in rape scenes but Im kinda weird that way!
> > > >
> > > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> > >
> > > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > > link to dance!
> > >
> >
> > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
>
> Uff, there we go again! Shishir, do **you** secretly work for
> Stardust? ;-)
>
Where do we go again?I despise Stardust or even Filmfare for that
matter!
> > > >
> > > > Kamalahaasan did a great Kathak piece in Saagara Sangamam.Of course
> > > > this was never dubbed in Hindi.This was way before he was buffed up!
> > >
> > > Kamalhassan and Kathak too? I thought he concentrated on Bharatnatyam.
> > > He was trained in Bharatnatyam right?
> >
> > Yes.Though I doubt if he was highly trained as
> > PrabhuDeva.Kamalahaasan dropped out of school in the 7th grade to join
> > some kind of gymnastics group.
>
> What dance form did Prabhudeva train in?
Bharatanatyam.
Waise, personally speaking I
> don't think much of Prabhu Deva from what I have seen of his dance. He
> has amazing flexibility and fluidity but absolutely no form.
He is quite good at Bharatanatyam though even western dances his
emphasis indeed seems to be at speed rather than grace.
I
> wouldn't treat his dance as as art form at all. It could do better as
> an entry for the floor exercises in the gymnastics event!
>
> > > >
> > > > Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
> > > > caste.
> > >
> > > How do you know? Is this documented anywhere? For what I have read
> > > about her, her father was an officer in the Madras Presidency during
> > > the British era and she took to films after her father's death.
> > >
> >
> > Waheeda Rahman and Jayaprada are from Rajahmudry A.P. ,same town as
> > my mother.My mother told me of their background.In fact there is a
> > photo of my mother performing Bharatanatyam with Jayaprada when they
> > were about 11.She may be wrong about Waheeda Rahman.
>
> Probable about Jayaprada but I do think it's untrue about Waheeda
> Rehman. Reasons:
> a) The main reason - Since Devdasis were temples dancers and attached
> to the temple they would have to be Hindu. It would not be possible
> for a muslim to be a Devdasi.
Its not unlikely since recently a Muslim was appointed a priest at a
Kali temple.Things are not cut and dry in India!
>
> b) Generally such details tend to come out in the open. For e.g it was
> a well known fact that Nargis was the daughter of Jaddanbai who was a
> 'baiji' singer. More so since Waheeda Rehman played the role of a
> Devdaasi in 'Guide' such a detail would have been diffcult to escape.
Possibly an inside joke.Also perhaps people in Mumbai wouldnt care
as much as they did in Andhra Pradesh.
>
> >
> > \
> > > >
> > > > Rehman is incredibly limited when it comes to rustic music.He
> > > > probably used up all his resources in Tamil and Telugu movies.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is his music genuinely rustic in these films?
> >
> > Very rarely.
> >
> > I think there is too
> > > much of the western ethos in him. Those are his roots and he can never
> > > break away from them compeletely.'
> >
> > He was trained in Trinity College ,London.He used to be in a rock
> > band with Suresh Peter.
>
> Aha.. that's the reason. Yes, Rehman is great in his niche. But then
> that's it. He's a niche composer. Does not have the versatality.
Most of his till 1997 was very good and he was quite versatile.What
he needs is a break to recharge his batteries.
> >
> > > And yes, he's a lost cause for
> > > mainstream folk based compositions because the south hangover is
> > > really massive I see it even in Radha Kaise na Jale in Lagaan though
> > > it's an attempt at UP Folk.
> >
> > Actually Rahman is a lot less south flavored than say Illayaraja(a
> > superior composer and performer but very regional)
>
> Yes, but then Illayaraja does not make many mainstream forays.
He is mainstream in the south.
> Carnatic music I feel by itself makes for great hearing but when it
> comes to mainstream music it really does not lend itself to fusion as
> easily hindustani classical does.
Rahman and Illaiyaraja have managed to do this very well..
> Cheers
> Ritu
Shishir Yerramilli
> > > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> > >
>
> > > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
> >
> > Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> > input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> > Anand directed films!
> >
>
> Yes, Ritu being a one-eyed fan amazingly gave Dev Anand credit for all the
> good music in his movies (tho' he doesn't have anything to do with it at all),
> while anything bad like the above, he is just an innocent, naive actor and
> does what his director asks him to do!
>
Come to think of it Im not a big fan of Goldie either!
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> > >
> > > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > > link to dance!
> > >
> >
> > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
>
> Why do you say Rekha and Madhuri are what you say they are?
The evidence is staggering and its not derived from Stardust or
CineBlitz or any such rag!
rkusenet
>Yes, but then Illayaraja does not make many mainstream forays.
By mainstream do u mean Hindi only.
>Carnatic music I feel by itself makes for great hearing but when it
>comes to mainstream music it really does not lend itself to fusion as
>easily hindustani classical does.
that explains why some of indian's foremost fusion music experts
based their work on carnatic music.
L Shankar
L Subramaniam
The Shakti Band of 80s.
Pls tell some of the great fusion work in hindustani music.
rk-
Alok
> In article <al38to$1l7b9n$1...@ID-27262.news.dfncis.de>,
> it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:
dyke
n 1: offensive terms for a lesbian who is noticeably masculine
[syn: {butch}, {dike}]
-Alok
--
...a vamp so scheming she'd twirl a moustache had she been a man.
--Baradwaj Rangan
Ritu
> rc0...@rediffmail.com says...
>
> >Yes, but then Illayaraja does not make many mainstream forays.
>
> By mainstream do u mean Hindi only.
Yes, by mainstream I mean audience that looks at Hindi films/music as
their prime musical source.
>
> >Carnatic music I feel by itself makes for great hearing but when it
> >comes to mainstream music it really does not lend itself to fusion as
> >easily hindustani classical does.
>
> that explains why some of indian's foremost fusion music experts
> based their work on carnatic music.
>
> L Shankar
> L Subramaniam
> The Shakti Band of 80s.
>
> Pls tell some of the great fusion work in hindustani music.
RK, We are not looking at instrumental and heavily classical based
fusions(for the lack of a better term). I am talking about mainstream
music which basically means Hindi film music and pop fare. I am
talking of the fusion of classical and folk with elements of basic
western melody. I am not talking about the kind of stuff L Subramanium
did with Jean Piere and Yehudi Menhuin. That's a different class. It's
a fusion b/w western classical and Carnatic music. Ravi Shankar has
done some good fusion work in the Hindustaani classical arena. But
since instrumental music is not very high in my area of interest I
wouldn't be able to discuss the quality in depth. I am anyway not
talking of instrumental fusions.
What I am saying is that Carnatic music in it's lighter classical
fusions as MS Subbalaxmi did for her Meera Bhajans or Vani Jairam does
find great accpetance and appreciation in the target audience.
However a typically classically inclined fimli score that targets the
masses generally looks at fusion b/w classical and folk. A mix of
carnatic and South Indian folk music somehow remains too exotic for
the mainstream Hindi audience. At most times usage of carnatic music
is for comic effect as was in Padosan (this definitely does not mean
to imply that carnatic music itself is comical).
And that was the point I was making. Hindustaani classical music mixed
with elements of either UP, Rajasthani or Bengali folk find greater
acceptance with the mainstream audience.
-Ritu
Ritu
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The dancer in question was the (in)famous Padma Khanna(IIRC) of the
> > > > > > Johnny Mera Naam fame.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > However, why blame Dev Anand he was only an actor in the film. The
> > > > creative vision of Johnny Mera Naam was completely Goldie's.
> > >
> > > Dev Anand was hardly a passive participant ,Im sure he had some
> > > input.Also there have been graphic rape scenes in quite a few Dev
> > > Anand directed films!
> >
> > Dev Anand was actually a passive participant in this film. During the
> > Johnny Mera Naam days Dev Anand actually did not involve himself
> > creatively with films he did. esp outside films (Johnny Mera Naam was
> > not a Navketan film).
>
> Oh come on!You mentioned Goldie Anand was suffering from a midlife
> crisis during this film but Dev Anand wasnt?Isnt it true that Goldie
> stopped directing because of constant 'interference' from Dev Anand
> like Kamalahaasan does today?!
Goldie Anand and Dev Anand fell out for a various reasons. One of them
being Goldie Anand's new obsession with acting (which is evident in
Chuppa Rustom) which Dev Anand seems to have resented. Interference
was also there. But it was only to do with the way he(Dev Anand) was
projected in the film. Dev Anand was supposed to have been completely
obsessed with his image those days. He also had a difference of
opinion with Dada Burman during chuppa rustom. However apart from
himself he generally did not interfere with other elements of
filmmaking. So, blame DEv Anand for his films or his 'image' in
outside films but you can't blame him for a song picturisation in
Goldie's film where he does not even feature.
>
> During those days he says he used to be
> > interested only in his own performance and the music department. The
> > Johnny Mera Naam product is entirely Goldie's brainchild. It's not
> > fair to blame Dev Anand for it. And as far as Dev Anand's later films
> > are concerned. I find most of them hilarious rather than offending.
>
> I find little humor in rape scenes but Im kinda weird that way!
I haven't seen any rape scenes in the Dev Anand directed films I've
watched. But his attempt at sensationlisation in the films I have
watched (like Censor) are nothing but comical.
Anyway, I am not standing up for Dev Anand's later fare. I too think
that they depict a very shallow and convoluted thinking.
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > The stereotypes of dykes being bad dancers seems to be true!
> > > >
> > > > Pardon my ignorance but what is a dyke? The only dykes I knew of were
> > > > of the walls used to keep the sea out in Holland. Can't imagine their
> > > > link to dance!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
> >
> > Uff, there we go again! Shishir, do **you** secretly work for
> > Stardust? ;-)
> >
>
> Where do we go again?I despise Stardust or even Filmfare for that
> matter!
There we go again discussing issues that only mags like stardust
discuss. How can you make a definitive statement about anyone's sexual
preferences? Esp if you have never met the person?
> > > > > Waheeda Rehman like Jaya Prada are of the Devadasi(temple dancer) sub
> > > > > caste.
> > > >
> > > > How do you know? Is this documented anywhere? For what I have read
> > > > about her, her father was an officer in the Madras Presidency during
> > > > the British era and she took to films after her father's death.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Waheeda Rahman and Jayaprada are from Rajahmudry A.P. ,same town as
> > > my mother.My mother told me of their background.In fact there is a
> > > photo of my mother performing Bharatanatyam with Jayaprada when they
> > > were about 11.She may be wrong about Waheeda Rahman.
> >
> > Probable about Jayaprada but I do think it's untrue about Waheeda
> > Rehman. Reasons:
> > a) The main reason - Since Devdasis were temples dancers and attached
> > to the temple they would have to be Hindu. It would not be possible
> > for a muslim to be a Devdasi.
>
> Its not unlikely since recently a Muslim was appointed a priest at a
> Kali temple.Things are not cut and dry in India!
Yes, but there are enough temples where non-hindus are still not
allowed. And we are talking about the early 50s not the 2002. I would
still think it would be unlikely. It's possible that she might not
have hailed from a very respectable family or came into films due to
economic compulsions. But since she had a father who was a govt
officer it seems unlikely to me.
>
> Most of his till 1997 was very good and he was quite versatile.What
> he needs is a break to recharge his batteries.
I tend to disagree. Rehman is right to give music for albums.. he's
just not cut out for film music that needs to be more emotional and
theme based.
Raghu Jetley
> In article <al38to$1l7b9n$1...@ID-27262.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Raghu Jetley" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
What happened - PMS ?
rkusenet
>RK, We are not looking at instrumental and heavily classical based
>fusions(for the lack of a better term). I am talking about mainstream
>music which basically means Hindi film music and pop fare.
OK, by fusion u meant something else than what I thought. U have
clarified it now.
cheers.
rk-
Shishir Yerramilli
> In rec.arts.movies.local.indian, Miss Lily wrote:
> > In article <al38to$1l7b9n$1...@ID-27262.news.dfncis.de>,
> > "Raghu Jetley" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:8777cccd.02090...@posting.google.com...
> >> > > > Dyke is an American slang term for lesbian!
> >>
> >> It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
> >> I think.
> >
> > You "think"? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've just made
> > it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
>
> From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:
>
> dyke
> n 1: offensive terms for a lesbian who is noticeably masculine
> [syn: {butch}, {dike}]
Interesting..Dyke is more suitable for her secretary Farzan then,what
would Rekha be called then ..'femme'?
> -Alok
Shishir Yerramilli
> "Raghu Jetley" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
>
Why do you say this Miss Lily?His explanation seems very reasonable!
cheers,
> - Lily
Karen Lofstrom
>> It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
>> I think.
In article <misslily-514C41...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
Miss Lily wrote:
> You "think"? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've just made
> it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
Cut him some slack, Miss Lily. Lots of people who speak English as a
second language haven't learned English slang -- and probably not English
slang concerning gays/bis/lesbians.
"Dyke" is a tough-sounding term for lesbian, but if you're talking about
lesbians playing out stereotypical male/female roles, the terms are
butch/femme. I have the impression that this is really dated, however, and
that most lesbians see no need to model their relationships on
heterosexual models that are themselves antiquated.
I'm open to correction, BTW. Aside from my friends Shawna and Christiane,
I don't hang out much with lesbians. So I could have gotten something
wrong too.
As for vocabulary ... I studied French in school, and learned exquisite,
polite, academic French. No slang. Which means that I can't really
understand any French magazines, movies, TV, or even a French person
speaking rapidly and idiomatically. When I brought a Tongan girl to the US
for college, she had the same problem with English. She could speak and
read correct English but didn't know any slang at all.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A product of Happy People's Recycled Food Cooperative Division Three
Alok
> Alok <ganda...@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>>In rec.arts.movies.local.indian, Miss Lily wrote:
>>> In article <al38to$1l7b9n$1...@ID-27262.news.dfncis.de>,
>>> "Raghu Jetley" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
>>>> I think.
>>>
>>> You "think"? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've just made
>>> it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
>>
>> From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:
>>
>> dyke
>> n 1: offensive terms for a lesbian who is noticeably masculine
>> [syn: {butch}, {dike}]
>
> in a lesbian relationship". If either of you also think there is a
> "'female' in a gay male relationship", then please don't say so - I
> can't take that much stupidity all at once.
Please note that you are not the only intelligent being around here. My
post did not mention "male in a lesbian relationship", nor did I mean to
imply that it did. I can't even imagine someone playing the part of male
in such a relationship, but that's another matter altogether.
> And no, you can't get AIDS from swimming pools.
Thanks for the biology lesson. I really mean it. Such a obscure and less
known fact! I really missed swimming all these days. So where did you
learn this from?
> I'll put you out of your misery: the word is just a synomym for
> "lesbian" and can be offensive or not depending on who uses it.
Well, all the dictionaries that I looked into, tell the same meaning.
Yeah, the dictionaries could be wrong.
> Sigh... if I'd only known that my labours as Ministrix for the
> Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue would be so taxing...
I would have plonked you, but knowing that it is you, I will let it go
and plonk only this thread.
-Alok
--
On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague:
"This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."
-- Wolfgang Pauli
Raghu Jetley
> Alok, I'm sorry I was harsh with you. I thought you were endorsing the
> language Mr. Jetley used
What language did I use ?
yeskay
> In article <und5pb3...@corp.supernews.com>,
> lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote:
>
> > Someone wrote:
> >
> > >> It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
> > >> I think.
> >
> > In article <misslily-514C41...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> > Miss Lily wrote:
> >
> > > You "think"? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've just made
> > > it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
> >
> > Cut him some slack, Miss Lily. Lots of people who speak English as a
> > second language haven't learned English slang -- and probably not English
> > slang concerning gays/bis/lesbians.
>
> I do know what you mean, Ms. Karen, but you've misunderstood my point. I
> don't care whether he has got the dictionary definition of "dyke" wrong.
> In fact, I don't care if he thinks it refers to a three-stringed lute
> from Almora. My disdain was directed at his *attitude*, which I thought
> came across pretty strongly with that 'male' bit.
Assumptionsville! Somebody says something with a 'male' in it and you get his
attitude, pedigree and everything about him. I haven't seen so much feminism
shamelessly exhibited.
> My reaction would have
> been exactly the same if he'd said it in Hindi. (And similarly
> prurient-plus-ignorant comments *are* made in Hindi regularly; the same
> oafishness exists all over the world). So I was much too brutally
> dismissive, I admit it - but with that corny "PMS" line, you can see
> that he's taken it upon himself to prove that my initial impression was
> right.
>
> ><snip>
> > As for vocabulary ... I studied French in school, and learned exquisite,
> > polite, academic French. No slang. Which means that I can't really
> > understand any French magazines, movies, TV, or even a French person
> > speaking rapidly and idiomatically. When I brought a Tongan girl to the US
> > for college, she had the same problem with English. She could speak and
> > read correct English but didn't know any slang at all.
>
> I respect your intentions (and I have also studied languages with the
> same effect!), but I've got to say that your message seems to be based
> on some, well... misguided assumptions about the use of English by
> Indians. The (specifically middle and upper class) urban India that
> ramlians come from cannot be equated with Tonga in it's relationship to
> the Eng. lang. For one thing - and correct me if I'm wrong - it looks
> like you've assumed that Raghu Jetley speaks "English as a second
> language". Which would seem to suggest that you aren't aware that in
> India, a vast number of people are raised speaking English - whether
> bilingually, trilingually,or even monolingually - basically from birth.
> India's full of English medium schools, but it's far more than just a
> matter of formal education,and certainly not of dry academic learning,
> like in your French example. Even if one's parents don't speak it, one's
> friends do. It's casual. Indigenous English dialects are flourishing and
> American and British slang is a part of them. Sorry for the pedantry,
> but there it is.
>
> - Lily
And now you know about his upbringing, how he was schooled and what languages
he studied. You keep believing in stereotypes like this, you would certainly be
confused with having some sort of harmonal imbalance or a defeciency. You are
getting so predictable. I'm sure you will come up with all the colorful
language you
could muster as a retort to this.
Well, *plonk* anyway!
Raghu Jetley
> My disdain was directed at his *attitude*, which I thought
> came across pretty strongly with that 'male' bit.
I still don't understand - what *attitude* ?
Could you take some time out & explain what the hell
offended you so much ?
I have no clue whatsoever.
Sanjeev seems to have some idea, so maybe he
can explain it to me ?
Has 'male' become a politically incorrect word
when I was sleeping or something ?
I am taking so much trouble in asking you this,
because you are sort of a regular in this
newsgroup since the last 6 months or so - otherwise
it really doesn't matter.
> My reaction would have been exactly the same if he'd
> said it in Hindi. (And similarly
> prurient-plus-ignorant comments
What prurient-plus-ignorant comment ?
> *are* made in Hindi regularly; the same
> oafishness exists all over the world).
What oafishness ?
> So I was much too brutally
> dismissive, I admit it - but with that corny "PMS" line, you can see
> that he's taken it upon himself to prove that my initial impression was
> right.
I think you have taken it upon yourself that my initial impression
about your PMS was right.
Did some 'male' take away your all-day sucker or
something when you were a kid - that you react
so strongly to the word ?
Karen Lofstrom
> Even if one's parents don't speak it, one's
> friends do. It's casual. Indigenous English dialects are flourishing and
> American and British slang is a part of them. Sorry for the pedantry,
> but there it is.
Hmmm. I'll accept the correction, but add a qualifier -- I'm not sure that
the English slang the kids learn growing up in India is the same slang
used in the UK or the US. Heck, I've run into problems understanding Brits
online sometimes. Frex, I just don't get the way they use "anorak". I
think it means some kind of creepy enthusiast but the nuanaces defeat me.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nevermore
Shishir Yerramilli
> >
> > >> It's a slang term for the 'male' in a lesbian relationship,
> > >> I think.
> >
> > In article <misslily-514C41...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> > Miss Lily wrote:
> >
> > > You "think"? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've just made
> > > it more than obvious that you don't think at all.
> >
> > Cut him some slack, Miss Lily. Lots of people who speak English as a
> > second language haven't learned English slang -- and probably not English
> > slang concerning gays/bis/lesbians.
>
> don't care whether he has got the dictionary definition of "dyke" wrong.
> In fact, I don't care if he thinks it refers to a three-stringed lute
Why does ML throw around more obscure references than Dennis
Miller?!Perhaps like Dennis Miller its a very lame attempt to seem
funny!Sorry Miss Lily you suck at humor and your insults are pretty
ineffective!
Raghu Jetley
> And I am explaining (politely I hope!) for the same reason. This is a
> trivial matter which has been blown way out of proportion. But that
> still doesn't absolve you of those silly "PMS" remarks, you
> oestrogenically-challenged freakchild. :-)
Those were in retaliation to your rather unprovoked strong remarks.
Peace, anyway.