Was Shakti Samanta really a significant director?
Ritu
along with Bimal Roy, Hrishikesh Mukherjee and Asit Sen as directors
he considers influential.
Whilst I agree whole-heartedly on Bimal Roy and HM. I wonder if
Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket. As far as I
know he pre-dominantly made all the Rajesh Khanna tear-jerkers of the
late 60s and 70s. Though there were films that were different at times
(like Amar Prem) by and large I consider Shakti Samanta to be a masala
film-maker of the 70s. Aradhana, Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag all
tear-jerkers in the typical 70s tradition. More of a flavour of the
season director than one with a long lasting impact like Bimal Roy.
Anyone thinks differently?
Cheers
Ritu
Shishir Yerramilli
> Kamesh in his post in a different thread, mentioned Shakti Samanta
> along with Bimal Roy, Hrishikesh Mukherjee and Asit Sen as directors
> he considers influential.
>
> Whilst I agree whole-heartedly on Bimal Roy and HM. I wonder if
> Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket. As far as I
> know he pre-dominantly made all the Rajesh Khanna tear-jerkers of the
> late 60s and 70s. Though there were films that were different at times
> (like Amar Prem) by and large I consider Shakti Samanta to be a masala
> film-maker of the 70s. Aradhana, Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag all
Amar Prem was a courageous movie to make IMO.Did Shakti also direct
the other Sharmila Rajesh starrer Raja Rani?Another movie that seemed
pretty gutsy to me for its time(mid 70's?).
> tear-jerkers in the typical 70s tradition. More of a flavour of the
> season director than one with a long lasting impact like Bimal Roy.
> Anyone thinks differently?
Ultimately SS is a masala filmmaker only.
> Cheers
> Ritu
rkusenet
"Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message news:8777cccd.03082...@posting.google.com...
Nope I agree with you. Except for Amar Prem, SS's film were all crap.
Amar Prem was v.good because Shramila Tagore was simply excellent in
that. I found Rajesh Khanna highly irritating with "I hate tears" crap.
rk-
ps: I also find the three Kishore Kumar songs of Amar Prem hyped beyond
limit. Gosh. People take it as a classical song. The only two songs
I like are "bada natkat hain" and "raina beet jaye", both Lata.
Baradwaj Rangan
> Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket. As far as I
> know he pre-dominantly made all the Rajesh Khanna tear-jerkers of the
> late 60s and 70s. Though there were films that were different at times
> (like Amar Prem) by and large I consider Shakti Samanta to be a masala
> film-maker of the 70s. Aradhana, Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag all
> tear-jerkers in the typical 70s tradition. More of a flavour of the
> season director than one with a long lasting impact like Bimal Roy.
> Anyone thinks differently?
Well, he also did some decent black-and-white films - Howrah Bridge
was a good mystery, as was China Town (for that era). Kasmir ki Kali
and An Evening In paris were of course huge masalas. But you're right
about the 70s stuff... he made a bunch of tear-jerkers of middling
quality and fortunately had the good sense to sign on RDB as music
director for most of them.
BTW, isn't it odd that the man who made these tearjerkers also
contributed to one of Kaka's most imitated lines: "I ha-a-te tears."
(Of course, the priceless intonation cannot be reproduced in a
posting, but you get the picture) :-)
Loony Tunes
"Baradwaj Rangan" <b_ra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c04b79a9.03082...@posting.google.com...
>
> Well, he also did some decent black-and-white films - Howrah Bridge
> was a good mystery, as was China Town (for that era). Kasmir ki Kali
> and An Evening In paris were of course huge masalas. But you're right
> about the 70s stuff... he made a bunch of tear-jerkers of middling
> quality and fortunately had the good sense to sign on RDB as music
> director for most of them.
I have a feeling he has a very high Hits to Movies ratio. He is credited to
have given India the first super star in the form of Rajesh Khanna.
>
> BTW, isn't it odd that the man who made these tearjerkers also
> contributed to one of Kaka's most imitated lines: "I ha-a-te tears."
> (Of course, the priceless intonation cannot be reproduced in a
> posting, but you get the picture) :-)
;-) "Pushpaaaa..!! I ha-a-te tears".
-k
yeskay
I appreciate your efforts to get rid of some bad threads in RAMLI (altho'
I'm responsible also in that front). I agree that Shakti Samanta is not
that good compared to Bimal Roy etc. He was successful and that's no
indication of greatness as we know now about directors like Karan Johar,
Aditya Chopra are immensely successful compared to directors like
Govind Nihalani.
virenpratapsingh
> along with Bimal Roy, Hrishikesh Mukherjee and Asit Sen as directors
> he considers influential.
Though, I agree with you that putting him in the same line with
HrishiDa and Bimal Da, is overating him a little but, He has made some
rally good movies..
>
> Whilst I agree whole-heartedly on Bimal Roy and HM. I wonder if
> Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket. As far as I
> know he pre-dominantly made all the Rajesh Khanna tear-jerkers of the
> late 60s and 70s. Though there were films that were different at times
> (like Amar Prem) by and large I consider Shakti Samanta to be a masala
> film-maker of the 70s. Aradhana, Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag all
> tear-jerkers in the typical 70s tradition. More of a flavour of the
> season director than one with a long lasting impact like Bimal Roy.
> Anyone thinks differently?
>
> Cheers
> Ritu
Most of hs movies have been tear-jerkers, but then in that regard some
of them have been pretty inflential for their time period..
the first movie which the Rajesh Khanna - Samanta pair made was
Aradhana of the 7-8 odd movies they made together...though today
Aradhana's story seems typical by today's standards(maybe because
people have ripped it apart many times since then) Aradhana for its
time was quite influential...all the way from Tagore's character to
the official stamp of the music band being taken over by RD from
SD...there were some other things like the interesting picturization
of mere sapnon ki rani, which was pictureized in the same way for many
other screen couples and seen even today...and bear in mind, it is
these movies which turned Sharmila tagore from a symbol to an award
winning actress...
Now, samanta had no clue what to do once he came into the 80's and
continued with the Mithun movies, but even before Khanna his movies
with Shammi(Kahsmir ki Kali, evening in Paris) are enjoyable even
today ...and I thought China Town was decent too(though its been a
while I saw it)..but who can ever forget "Baar Baar Dekho.."
Ram Jaane
> Whilst I agree whole-heartedly on Bimal Roy and HM. I wonder if
> Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket.
Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag, Anurodh, Anand Ashram were very
good if not brilliant. Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki Ek Raat etc were
mediocre. BTW, the early 70s films of his were far better in quality
than many of the masala films of Amitabh from 1979 onwards and the
Jeetu-Sridevi ones. One thing notable about Shakti Samanta was
his penchant for fellow Bengali Sharmila Tagore. BTW, wasn't early
70s so bengali in flavor with Samanta, Hrishi, RDB, Kishore etc
totally dominating the scene.
I won't even label Hrishi in the league of a V Shantaram, Bimal Roy,
Guru Dutt, Mehboob Khan, Gulzar, Raj Kapoor or Yash Chopra for that
matter among the older directors. Though he directed a number of
enjoyable comedies, AFAIK, only Anand, Satyakam, Gol Maal and maybe
Chupke Chupke stand above the rest.
RJ
rkusenet
"Ram Jaane" <ram_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Amar Prem, Kati Patang, Anuraag, Anurodh, Anand Ashram were very
> good if not brilliant.
Amar Prem - V.good
Kati Patang - Raddi (don't mistake songs with film)
Anuraag- Was this movie where the boy donates his eye to blind
Mousami Chatterjee. I agree it was a good movie.
Anurodh- Raddi
Anand Ashram - Haven't seen it.
Some more:-
Ajnabi - Raddi.
Amanush - OK.
rk-
Shishir Yerramilli
How was his accent like?I dont remember Rajesh Khanna speaking
English as such.It would appear during that time among male actors,
that only AB could speak English without making us laugh.Nothing wrong
with having an accent of course but the characters that are supposed
to Westernised city slickers spoke English with such atrocious accents
that even gawars would howl with laughter.
Ritu
> that. I found Rajesh Khanna highly irritating with "I hate tears" crap.
Amar Prem was a good film, simply because it was different. The lead
characters did not have the usual hackneyed romantic relationship and
the mother-son angle was heart-warming. However, I don't think there
was anything outstanding in it's treatment. That was a tear-jerker
from the first frame starting with SDB's over-the-top lament 'Doli
mein bithaike kahar' which sets tone for the film. If Samanta was the
script writer also then maybe he can take credit for it.
And as far as Sharmila Tagore goes.. she worked in some great films
but I found her quite trying on the nerves on the whole. She was too
affected. The only film where she was natural was Ray's Aparajito.
And ofocurse the less we say about Rajesh Khanna the better. I still
haven't understood what made woman slash their wrists for a joker like
him!
>
> rk-
> ps: I also find the three Kishore Kumar songs of Amar Prem hyped beyond
> limit. Gosh. People take it as a classical song. The only two songs
> I like are "bada natkat hain" and "raina beet jaye", both Lata.
Which song is the classical song? I agree I don't care for the Kishore
songs in Amar Prem either. They put me to sleep. But I don't enjoy
'Raina Beeti jaaye' so much either. It's too heavy and sedate. The
charmer in this track is undoubtedly 'Bada natkhat hai re' and
ofcourse 'Doli mein bithaike kahar'.
Btw.. where have all the RDB fans disappeared? No one comes to his
defence these days :)?
Ritu
Ritu
> b_ra...@hotmail.com (Baradwaj Rangan) wrote in message news:<c04b79a9.03082...@posting.google.com>...
> > rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.03082...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > BTW, isn't it odd that the man who made these tearjerkers also
> > contributed to one of Kaka's most imitated lines: "I ha-a-te tears."
> > (Of course, the priceless intonation cannot be reproduced in a
> > posting, but you get the picture) :-)
>
> How was his accent like?I dont remember Rajesh Khanna speaking
> English as such.It would appear during that time among male actors,
> that only AB could speak English without making us laugh.Nothing wrong
> with having an accent of course but the characters that are supposed
> to Westernised city slickers spoke English with such atrocious accents
> that even gawars would howl with laughter.
Dilip Kumar speaks quite well. And so does Dev Anand. Both had a
convent education. Rajesh Khanna also speaks fluently. And as far as
the accents are concerned. You can't blame them. Queen's English was
not really as common those days and even city slickers were not as
slick as we would think them to be. Unless ofcourse they were playing
WOGs
Ritu
rkusenet
"Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote
> > rk-
> > ps: I also find the three Kishore Kumar songs of Amar Prem hyped beyond
> > limit. Gosh. People take it as a classical song. The only two songs
> > I like are "bada natkat hain" and "raina beet jaye", both Lata.
>
> Which song is the classical song? I agree I don't care for the Kishore
> songs in Amar Prem either. They put me to sleep. But I don't enjoy
> 'Raina Beeti jaaye' so much either. It's too heavy and sedate. The
> charmer in this track is undoubtedly 'Bada natkhat hai re' and
> ofcourse 'Doli mein bithaike kahar'.
Yup. I also rate Bada natkhat as the best song of that film by a mile.
> Btw.. where have all the RDB fans disappeared? No one comes to his
> defence these days :)?
X-posting to rmim :-)
rk-
Ritu
>
> Most of hs movies have been tear-jerkers, but then in that regard some
> of them have been pretty inflential for their time period..
> the first movie which the Rajesh Khanna - Samanta pair made was
> Aradhana of the 7-8 odd movies they made together...though today
> Aradhana's story seems typical by today's standards(maybe because
> people have ripped it apart many times since then) Aradhana for its
> time was quite influential...
You have a point,. As we discuss I realise that Samanta had quite a
variety of themes. But somehow their treatment is the same. With those
storylines he could have made masterpieces but he chose to make
mass-appeal soap opera kind of films.
> the official stamp of the music band being taken over by RD from
> SD...
What does that mean?
>there were some other things like the interesting picturization
> of mere sapnon ki rani, which was pictureized in the same way for many
There was similiar picturization by Nasir Hussain in 'Jab Pyar kisi se
hota hai'. But I agree there was something very fresh about Aradhana.
I guess it's the music.
> other screen couples and seen even today...and bear in mind, it is
> these movies which turned Sharmila tagore from a symbol to an award
> winning actress...
Sharmila Tagore started out with serious cinema in Ray's 'Apur Sansar'
(not Aparajito as I mentioned earlier). I don't think Aradhana did
that much. Tagore always balanced glamorous and serious roles. Sadly
she could not leave the glamour behind in the serious roles.
>
> Now, samanta had no clue what to do once he came into the 80's and
> continued with the Mithun movies, but even before Khanna his movies
> with Shammi(Kahsmir ki Kali, evening in Paris) are enjoyable even
> today ...and I thought China Town was decent too(though its been a
> while I saw it)..but who can ever forget "Baar Baar Dekho.."
Samanta did always have good music in his films. And he has conceeded
somewhere that he did not have much of a music sense but he was always
lucky to get good music.
Cheers
Ritu
Ritu
> rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message news:<8777cccd.03082...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Whilst I agree whole-heartedly on Bimal Roy and HM. I wonder if
> > Shakti Samanta can really be counted in the same bracket.
> his penchant for fellow Bengali Sharmila Tagore. BTW, wasn't early
> 70s so bengali in flavor with Samanta, Hrishi, RDB, Kishore etc
> totally dominating the scene.
Yeah, the better films in the 70s were by the Bengal contingent. The
middle-of-the-road cinema. Most mainstream films in the 70s were
shamelessly escapist. Esp. the Manmohan Desai kind of fare.
>
> I won't even label Hrishi in the league of a V Shantaram, Bimal Roy,
> Guru Dutt, Mehboob Khan, Gulzar, Raj Kapoor or Yash Chopra for that
> matter among the older directors. Though he directed a number of
> enjoyable comedies, AFAIK, only Anand, Satyakam, Gol Maal and maybe
> Chupke Chupke stand above the rest.
Hrishikesh Mukherjee does not compare favourably with Yash Chpora??
It's an insult to HM to speak of him and Yash Chopra in the same
breath. I think HM was a much much superior director. Just because he
did not make films with hieghtened pitches like V Shantaram (another
overrated director) does not make him a lesser director. The beauty of
HM is the timelessness of his films. And the repeat value of the films
despite having a very gentle treatment.
And if one looks at his repertiore he has amazing variety
Anuradha
Musafir
Anupama
Anand
Bawarchi
Satyakam
Guddi
Abhimaan
Chupke Chupke
Golmal
Rang Birangi
You know despite being a great Dev Anand fan when I started my film
collection I started with HM because of the tremendous repeat value of
those films.
Don;t underestimate him because he did not scream his message in his
films from the roof-tops. The message in films was presented in a
gentle, refined and subtle manner.
Ritu
>
>
> RJ
rkusenet
"Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote in
> There was similiar picturization by Nasir Hussain in 'Jab Pyar kisi se
> hota hai'. But I agree there was something very fresh about Aradhana.
> I guess it's the music.
It was only the music. The film was very poor.
BTW do u know which novel Sharmila reads on the train,
when Rajesh Khanna sings the song "mere sapno kee rani".
rk-
Cricketislife!
wrote:
>It was only the music. The film was very poor.
>
>BTW do u know which novel Sharmila reads on the train,
>when Rajesh Khanna sings the song "mere sapno kee rani".
>
Alistair Mclean's When Eight Bells Toll
rkusenet
"Cricketislife!" <cricke...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message news:9qmdkvc7k308i6km2...@4ax.com...
I thought Puppet on a chain. But then I haven't seen this song
for ages.
rk-
Baradwaj Rangan
> BTW do u know which novel Sharmila reads on the train,
> when Rajesh Khanna sings the song "mere sapno kee rani".
>
Was it an Alistair Maclean?
ian
Hrishda but imo some of his films were a lot better than the trash
that is being given to us these days! Even some of the present ones
that have given us record breaking movies if you go to analyze them
deeply they too are mediocore as far as something you would remember
like Mother India, Mughal-e-Azam,and many others
Arjun Pandit
> Some more:-
>
> Ajnabi - Raddi.
>
> Amanush - OK.
Great Gambler was also raddi. The idea of the villains sending decoded
messages to each other by "videographing" Helen dance with the message
lights flashing behind here was very funny ;-)
yeskay
Ritu wrote:
> And as far as Sharmila Tagore goes.. she worked in some great films
> but I found her quite trying on the nerves on the whole. She was too
> affected. The only film where she was natural was Ray's Aparajito.
>
Yes, she was irritating. The only film I liked her in was Mausam.
> And ofocurse the less we say about Rajesh Khanna the better. I still
> haven't understood what made woman slash their wrists for a joker like
> him.
If I can believe women slashing wrists for Dev Anand, RK being >>>>> DA
in looks, is still more believable. :)
cricfan
> And as far as Sharmila Tagore goes.. she worked in some great films
> but I found her quite trying on the nerves on the whole. She was too
> affected. The only film where she was natural was Ray's Aparajito.
>
As Utpal Dutt would say,"Rituji eeeeeesh"..
Sharmila was a young Aparna in 'Apurva Sansar'. The third and final part of
the trilogy [which unlike Douglas Adams' works was a trilogy in three parts
:-)]
Cheers
Arun
cricfan
"yeskay" <yes...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3F47703B...@nowhere.com...
>
>
> Ritu wrote:
>
> > And as far as Sharmila Tagore goes.. she worked in some great films
> > but I found her quite trying on the nerves on the whole. She was too
> > affected. The only film where she was natural was Ray's Aparajito.
>
> Yes, she was irritating. The only film I liked her in was Mausam.
>
I haven't seen Ray's 'Devi' so I'll reserve my comments. I *loved* Sharmila
in 'New Delhi Times'.
Cheers
Arun
cricfan
"cricfan" <cri...@nothing.org> wrote in message
news:bi84g3$6fu76$1...@ID-146332.news.uni-berlin.de...
..which also reminds me of a tune played by Apu on his flute in that film. A
[Tagore] tune which was later adapted to "tere mere milan kii ye rainaa".
Cheers
Arun
Ram Jaane
> Most mainstream films in the 70s were
> shamelessly escapist. Esp. the Manmohan Desai kind of fare.
That is the late 70s-early 80s period you are talking
about. I don't think you can call MD's films shameless.
Actually, people were bored of seeing the serious movies
of the early-mid 70s and AAA in 1977 provided them
respite with its wholesome entertainment value. Though
MD's films can not be talked about in terms of cinematic
quality but the fact remains that he has directed some
very good entertainers like AAA, Suhaag and Naseeb.
> Hrishikesh Mukherjee does not compare favourably with Yash Chpora??
> It's an insult to HM to speak of him and Yash Chopra in the same
> breath. I think HM was a much much superior director.
Maybe in your opinion. But Yash Chopra is greater to me
for the following reasons. Yash Chopra made path-breaking
films which launched two potential superstars into the big
league. Deewar gave AB the angry young man image while
Darr gave Shahrukh the obsessed lover image. In between,
he has directed some great movies with big star cast like
Kabhie Kabhie and Lamhe. Besides, his other movies like
Dhool Ka Phool and Daag were of good cinematic quality.
Being a great director to me is to be able to direct
movies on a bigger scale which get appreciated for
their quality and also to be able to make path-breaking
films. Yash Chopra has done both. Hrishi Da for all
his competence was essentially a simple director who
made simple movies with simple middle class values.
RJ
Loony Tunes
> ..which also reminds me of a tune played by Apu on his flute in that film.
A
> [Tagore] tune which was later adapted to "tere mere milan kii ye rainaa".
Aha...Abhiman had music by SDB right ? :-))
-k
>
> Cheers
> Arun
>
>
rkusenet
"cricfan" <cri...@nothing.org> wrote
> I haven't seen Ray's 'Devi' so I'll reserve my comments. I *loved* Sharmila
> in 'New Delhi Times'.
Sharmila was damn good in Mississippi Masala.
rk-
virenpratapsingh
> anil...@yahoo.com (virenpratapsingh) wrote in message news:<aa50956b.03082...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >
> > Most of hs movies have been tear-jerkers, but then in that regard some
> > of them have been pretty inflential for their time period..
> > the first movie which the Rajesh Khanna - Samanta pair made was
> > Aradhana of the 7-8 odd movies they made together...though today
> > Aradhana's story seems typical by today's standards(maybe because
> > people have ripped it apart many times since then) Aradhana for its
> > time was quite influential...
>
> You have a point,. As we discuss I realise that Samanta had quite a
> variety of themes. But somehow their treatment is the same. With those
> storylines he could have made masterpieces but he chose to make
> mass-appeal soap opera kind of films.
Yeah, they werernt essentially masterpeices, and maybe they have been
worn out with time, but they are enjoyable...the only problem is they
get too melodramatic at times...hey, but then he is a legend when you
compare him to the so-called big shots Dharmesh Darshan's and Raj
Kanwar's and Satish Kaushik's of this era...even SLB for his stature
had induced melodrama these days.
>
> > the official stamp of the music band being taken over by RD from
> > SD...
>
> What does that mean?
I mean, with this movie it was stated that RD is the new king and he
has offically taken over from his father SD.
> >there were some other things like the interesting picturization
> > of mere sapnon ki rani, which was pictureized in the same way for many
>
> There was similiar picturization by Nasir Hussain in 'Jab Pyar kisi se
> hota hai'. But I agree there was something very fresh about Aradhana.
> I guess it's the music.
>
Recently, I saw some new movie which had some similar
picturization...cant recall, which one it was...
the music was definitely good and RDB just went to from here to give
greatr music!
RDB-GULZAR combination is my personal favourite music/lyrics/director
combo of all time...nothing in the world beats this!
> > other screen couples and seen even today...and bear in mind, it is
> > these movies which turned Sharmila tagore from a symbol to an award
> > winning actress...
>
> Sharmila Tagore started out with serious cinema in Ray's 'Apur Sansar'
> (not Aparajito as I mentioned earlier). I don't think Aradhana did
> that much. Tagore always balanced glamorous and serious roles. Sadly
> she could not leave the glamour behind in the serious roles.
>
Well yeah, thats true...but then I dont know much about her other work
in Bengali...Infact, she also gave a superb performance in Satyakam
before Aradhana...but after these movies like Aradhana, Amar Prem and
others, she kind of evolved as a mature actress and did many roles of
substance...espiecally with Hrisha Da(Anupama, Satyakam) and
Gulzar(Khushboo, Namkeen and Mausam)...and with Mausam, she got her
national award for best actres...
I dont know if you have seen Namkeen, but it is my most *favourite*
Hindi movie..the performances of Sanjeev Kumar, Sharmila Tagore,
Shabana, Waheeda are just too good to be true..
>
> >
> > Now, samanta had no clue what to do once he came into the 80's and
> > continued with the Mithun movies, but even before Khanna his movies
> > with Shammi(Kahsmir ki Kali, evening in Paris) are enjoyable even
> > today ...and I thought China Town was decent too(though its been a
> > while I saw it)..but who can ever forget "Baar Baar Dekho.."
>
> Samanta did always have good music in his films. And he has conceeded
> somewhere that he did not have much of a music sense but he was always
> lucky to get good music.
yeah, he had good music always...there is no doubt...from China town
till even some of his movies in 80's and 90's..
>
> Cheers
> Ritu
Aditya Basrur
Who did she play? The girl's mother?
Aditya
cricfan
"Aditya Basrur" <aditya...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bi8liq$4ql$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> rkusenet wrote:
>
> Who did she play? The girl's mother?
>
> Aditya
>
Yes, she did a great job.
Arun
cricfan
> >
> > Alistair Mclean's When Eight Bells Toll
>
> I thought Puppet on a chain. But then I haven't seen this song
> for ages.
>
RK, I think you are right. This is a old chestnut in quizzes in India.
Cheers
Arun
cricfan
"ian" <ianso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41c1f61b.03082...@posting.google.com...
*****Really******?
Mughal-e-Azam was grandiose, had great songs, but was historically
inaccurate and was no great shakes as a film [IMHO].
Admitted, that one feels nostalgia for films that had great songs, but
content wise, today's films are on par or if not better. One needn't compare
the B and C grade trash that is dished out by the Karan Johar's of the
world. Even a cursory glance at a summarized list of creative films [and
actors taking risks] conveys the impression that the current lot have
experimented..
Maya Memsaab [Shah Rukh in an alternate role/Ketan Mehta]
Darr/Baazigar [which actor played a psychotic murderer in the 50's?]
Sarfarosh [Aamir/John Mathai Mathan]
Company [Ajay Devgan/ RGV]
Lagaan [Aamir/AG]
Dil Chahta Hai [Aamir/FA]
Roja [Arvind Swamy plays a code breaker/Mani Ratnam]
Mission Kashmir [Hritik, then a rising superstar, played an anti-Indian
terrorist/VVC - ordinary film, but he dared to experiment]
Satya [RGV]
Jungle/Road [RGV productions]
Shool [E. Nivas]
...and many more..The only failure that this period has shown is the lack of
genre-creating directors like Shyam Benegal and his late cousin, Guru Dutt
Padukone who are anyway superior to the Bimal Roys and the K. Asifs, period!
Cheers
Arun
Aditya Basrur
<snip>
> The only failure that this period has shown is the
> lack of genre-creating directors like Shyam Benegal and his late
> cousin, Guru Dutt Padukone who are anyway superior to the Bimal Roys
> and the K. Asifs, period!
>
> Cheers
> Arun
Interesting list, Arun, thank you.
As a newcomer to the Hindi film genre, I'm a little stuck as to which Shyam
Benegal and Guru Dutt films one should start with. Do you have any
suggestions?
And what are your thoughts on Girish Karnad and Kalpana Lajmi?
Aditya
Nikhil Devanur
> films. Yash Chopra has done both. Hrishi Da for all
> his competence was essentially a simple director who
> made simple movies with simple middle class values.
I would say you have a very simplistic view.
rkusenet
"cricfan" <cri...@nothing.org> wrote
> ...and many more..The only failure that this period has shown is the lack of
> genre-creating directors like Shyam Benegal and his late cousin, Guru Dutt
> Padukone who are anyway superior to the Bimal Roys and the K. Asifs, period!
What about Govind Nihalani. IMO he is a superior director to Shyam Benegal.
He showed his class in his first film Aakrosh. I am still trying to get a copy
of this unforgettable film.
rk-
ian
Arun how many are these in how many years and you compare the old
times and how many "successful" films there were. And you have NOT
understood my point of mentioning "SOME" You list is "SOME" not "MOST"
even the critics in India are at tetthers with the films being
released these days and their contents!
cricfan
> "cricfan" <cri...@nothing.org> wrote in message
news:<bi97l1$6qhpi$1...@ID-146332.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
> Arun how many are these in how many years and you compare the old
> times and how many "successful" films there were. And you have NOT
> understood my point of mentioning "SOME" You list is "SOME" not "MOST"
> even the critics in India are at tetthers with the films being
> released these days and their contents!
I'm afraid I have a different opinion here too. I think we tend to think of
the famous films of 50's and 60's of being representative of the entire
decade. There were duds made in that period, quite a large number of them in
fact. Even in the 70's, films (even ones that had famous songs) were quite
often way too ordinary. Due to the overexposure in the media, we tend to be
more *aware* of duds nowadays.
Cheers
Arun
cricfan
Govind Nihalani as a director, has unfortunately not been too prolific.
Also, he didn't begin the parallel cinema movement like Shyam Benegal did,
although he did work with him. I was referring here to the people who
created a movement or at least attempted to be radically different.
Cheers
Arun
Ritu
> news:41c1f61b.03082...@posting.google.com...
>
> Admitted, that one feels nostalgia for films that had great songs, but
> content wise, today's films are on par or if not better. One needn't compare
> the B and C grade trash that is dished out by the Karan Johar's of the
> world. Even a cursory glance at a summarized list of creative films [and
> actors taking risks] conveys the impression that the current lot have
> experimented..
Hey what happened to you Arun? The last time I read your posts you
extolled the virtues of old films and RK told you precisely this...
don't confuse good music with good films :). Have you spent the last
few months with RK? :).
Cheers
Ritu
Ritu
> ...and many more..The only failure that this period has shown is the lack of
> genre-creating directors like Shyam Benegal and his late cousin, Guru Dutt
> Padukone who are anyway superior to the Bimal Roys and the K. Asifs, period!
K Asif, I don't argue. Mughal-e-azam was basically about a lot of
grandeur and that's the only film I have seen of his. But Bimal Roy? I
think Bimal Roy was on par if not superior to Guru Dutt and Shyam
Benegal. How did you put him on a lower rung? His treatment of a
subject was always so subtle, refined, understated yet profound. 'Do
Bigha Zameen', 'Madhumati', 'Sujata' and 'Bandini' are as great as
'Pyaasa' and 'Mr and Mrs 55' IMO.
Guru Dutt and Bimal Roy were actually at two ends of a spectrum. While
Guru Dutt was intense and operatic in his treatment, Bimal Roy was
almost Gandhian in his spartan outlook. His characters had quiet
dignity and an inherent strength.
A good place to explore the difference in approach would be
cinematography. Dutt and Murthy always painted their canvas with
flourish. (Infact VK Murthy says that in their times they were
criticised for their cinematography because it was said to take the
attention away from the content.!). The play of light and shade was
very rich.
Bimal Roy's cinematography on the other hand is minimalistic. He
created beauty with minimum props (a lot like SD Burman's music). I
don't know if I have mentioned it before. But like 'Aaj sajan mohe ang
lagalo' sticks in my mind as an example of Guru Dutt's triumph at
cinematograhpy, 'Kali ghata chhaye' from Sujata is a great
demonstration of beauty in simplicity which was the trademark of the
Bimal Roy school. There is a frame which has Nutan against a stark
wall with a thin white curtain gently fluttering in the breeze. There
is just Nutan and that fluttering curtain in the frame and she hums
'Kali ghata chhaaye'. The effect is of peace and tranquility and very
appealing to the eye. Very well done. That single shot speaks volumes
of the mood of the song.
In a nutshell I count Bimal Roy as a major genre-creating director.
Starting with Basu Bhattacharya, Hrishikesh Mukherjee right upto
Gulzar. Bimal Roy's ideology has found a very diverse expression.
CHeers
Ritu
Ritu
>
>
> > And ofocurse the less we say about Rajesh Khanna the better. I still
> > haven't understood what made woman slash their wrists for a joker like
> > him.
>
>
> If I can believe women slashing wrists for Dev Anand, RK being >>>>> DA
> in looks, is still more believable. :)
Never miss an opportunity eh? :)
But Dev Anand fans are not the sidey wrist slashing types. His fans
are the sensible head-on-shoulders varieties who just mention him once
in a while on newgroups :)!
Cheers
Ritu
P.S Btw. RK better than DA in looks? Come on. Yeh toh bahut zyadati
hai :). You can deny him talent, you can deny him intelligence but you
can't deny Dev Anand his looks!
Ritu
Sorry, I meant 'Apur Sansar' (btw it's Apur Sansar which means Apu's
World).She was great there.
Incidentally, Sharmila was much better in her post marriage films.
Once she got rid of that atrocious wig I think her brain cells started
functioning automatically :)!
Ritu
Ritu
Touche'!!
Ritu
P.S Was it you who started the thread of SD Burman's habit of lifting on RMIM?
Karen Lofstrom
>> Aha...Abhiman had music by SDB right ? :-))o
>
> Touche'!!
I think I posted months ago about how Abhiman won my heart. For the first
few minutes of the first scene, I thought:
AB's plaid sportcoat is hideous!
Indianized lounge music! What next?
Then, I thought, "Hey, for lounge music, this isn't half-bad. In fact ...
I think I kinda like it."
It was the music that made that movie for me.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Oh what a cute wee thing!
rkusenet
> K Asif, I don't argue. Mughal-e-azam was basically about a lot of
> grandeur and that's the only film I have seen of his. But Bimal Roy? I
> think Bimal Roy was on par if not superior to Guru Dutt and Shyam
> Benegal. How did you put him on a lower rung? His treatment of a
> subject was always so subtle, refined, understated yet profound. 'Do
> Bigha Zameen', 'Madhumati', 'Sujata' and 'Bandini' are as great as
> 'Pyaasa' and 'Mr and Mrs 55' IMO.
... snip
> In a nutshell I count Bimal Roy as a major genre-creating director.
> Starting with Basu Bhattacharya, Hrishikesh Mukherjee right upto
> Gulzar. Bimal Roy's ideology has found a very diverse expression.
Ritu,
I think u are one of the best thing to happen to RAMLI. U seem
to be a serious student of indian movies. May ur tribe grow in this
forum.
Frankly, however good those movies are, I have no urge to see them
now. For e.g, I thought Sujata was excellent and so was bandini.
But can I see them now. the last time I saw Sujata was in Calif 1996
because my wife wanted to see it. Somehow they don't have a timeless
appeal, for me to sit down and watch them now. May be twenty yrs from
now, I may say the same about Satya :-) (hopefully not).
It means that, these movies, though great, can not transgress beyond
an era. Do I feel like that about every old movie? No. I can see Garam
Hawa any time. And I am sure there are more movies of that era.
rk-
cricfan
>
> As a newcomer to the Hindi film genre, I'm a little stuck as to which
Shyam
> Benegal and Guru Dutt films one should start with. Do you have any
> suggestions?
>
> And what are your thoughts on Girish Karnad and Kalpana Lajmi?
Isn't Ms. Lajmi, Guru Dutt's sister? I don't think I've seen many films made
by her. Karnad on the other hand is a legend. His plays are oft translated
into multiple languages. His Kannada plays have had successful runs on the
Marathi stage [directed/translated by the equally legendary Vijaya Mehta].
His films, I like, especially Utsav. See his Kannada films, Ondanondu
Kaladalli, Godhuli - Hindi (aka Tabbaliyu Neenade Magane in Kannada)
My Benegal recommendations:
Kalyug [Mahabharata retold in a corporate setting]
Bhumika [arguably his and Smita Patil's best - simply incredible. I saw it
yesterday to refresh my memory. Amol Palekar was brilliant]
Ankur [the film which began the art film movement?]
Trikal [about Goans in pre & post Independent Goa]
Manthan, Nishant [topical and a bit depressing] Manthan was sponsored by
Amul.
Junoon [ Naseer and Shashi are beyond belief. An incredible film]
Mammo, Sardari Begum and Zubeida [a trilogy often believed to be the
autobiography of Khalid Mohammed]
My Guru Dutt recommendations:
Sahib Biwi Aur Ghulam [also see Satyajit Ray's "Jalasagar" to compare and
contrast a similar story of zamindari decadance]
Aar Paar
Pyaasa
Kagaz Ke Phool
Mr & Mrs. 55 [superb songs, light hearted]
Cheers
Arun
Aditya Basrur
>
> "Aditya Basrur" <aditya...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bi9898$i5o$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
> >
> > As a newcomer to the Hindi film genre, I'm a little stuck as to which
> Shyam
> > Benegal and Guru Dutt films one should start with. Do you have any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > And what are your thoughts on Girish Karnad and Kalpana Lajmi?
>
>
> Isn't Ms. Lajmi, Guru Dutt's sister? I don't think I've seen many films
made
> by her.
Niece, I think. She's meant to be living with Bhupen Hazarika. They made
"Rudaali" together (which I've not seen).
I am vaguely connected to all of the above, in that they come from my
(rather small) community. The new blood isn't as promising. Isha Koppikar
and Amrita Rao are it for the moment.
> Karnad on the other hand is a legend. His plays are oft translated
> into multiple languages. His Kannada plays have had successful runs on the
> Marathi stage [directed/translated by the equally legendary Vijaya Mehta].
> His films, I like, especially Utsav. See his Kannada films, Ondanondu
> Kaladalli, Godhuli - Hindi (aka Tabbaliyu Neenade Magane in Kannada)
Good to know. I'll do my best to get them. I met Girish Karnad's mother in
Dharwad about 8 years ago. She was a very interesting lady. His sister and
brother-in-law are also engaging hosts and very hospitable.
<snip recommendations>
Thanks very much for these. I'll get to work.
Aditya
Sydney Assbasket
>cinematography. Dutt and Murthy always painted their canvas with
>flourish. (Infact VK Murthy says that in their times they were
>criticised for their cinematography because it was said to take the
>attention away from the content.!). The play of light and shade was
>very rich.
I've only seen Pyaasa, but it is one of the most magnificently shot Indian
films I've seen. On par with Satyajit Ray's films with Subrata Mitra and
Soumendu Roy (Ray's style persisted even with different directors of
photography). For someone who started out as a choreographer, Guru Dutt picked
up how to effectively use the camera rather wonderfully.
>Bimal Roy's cinematography on the other hand is minimalistic. He
>created beauty with minimum props (a lot like SD Burman's music). I
>don't know if I have mentioned it before.
Bimal Roy seems to be very much influenced by the neo-realist movement from
Italy, whose influence manifests itself greatly in Do Bigha Zameen. Simple,
yet beautiful cinematography. The location shots in the street are reminiscent
of The Bicycle Thief.
Hrishikesh Mukherjee's films, OTOH, are not shot with any particular artistry.
The setups and lighting are very simple, almost point-and-shoot. But he makes
up for this with interesting stories and characters. I'd rather watch an
averagely shot HM film than a bombastically shot Shankar film any day.
Remove "moc" to reply.
Whoever says "Nothing is impossible" has never tried to slam a
revolving door.
- Willy Walker
Ram Jaane
And aftrer reading your post, i would say you have no views at all. :)
RJ
Shishir Yerramilli
Govind Nihalani used to be the DP for most of Benegal films.He was
one of the DPs for the TV series Discovery Of India(directed by
Benegal) along VK Murthy(Pyaasa and other Guru Dutt films) and Piyush
Shah(who later did RGVs Mast).
Nihalanis films also look great inspite of their gritty subject.Never
saw any grainy shots.
>
> Cheers
> Arun
Loony Tunes
Nope I did not. I might have an idea who did though.
-k
Arjun Pandit
>
> He showed his class in his first film Aakrosh. I am still trying to get a copy
> of this unforgettable film.
Enjoy:
http://shopping.rediff.com/srch/ProductDisplay.jsp?prrfnbr=925497&shop=429&frompg=video_home
>
> rk-
cricfan
> Hey what happened to you Arun? The last time I read your posts you
> extolled the virtues of old films and RK told you precisely this...
> don't confuse good music with good films :). Have you spent the last
> few months with RK? :).
>
> Cheers
> Ritu
A bit of brainwashing :-)
Seeing K. Asif's name in that list raised my hackles ;-)
Cheers
Arun
rkusenet
> Bhumika [arguably his and Smita Patil's best - simply incredible. I saw it
> yesterday to refresh my memory. Amol Palekar was brilliant]
Got to agree with this. I saw it two yrs back and was totally bowled
by it. I always rated Smita Patil highly, but she was outstanding in
this.
rk-