American Beauty Original Ending (SPOILERS)
JudeSchall
I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
odds and ends. I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded, or just
cut from the development process. Anyone else know? I know someone on this
newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
j
Frisco Del Rosario
judes...@aol.com (JudeSchall) wrote:
> SPOILERS...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
> in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
> trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
> odds and ends.
That certainly seemed like how things would end while I watched the movie.
They're off to New York to live happily ever after, but the cops find the
tape, draw the logical conclusion, blah blah.
In another alternate ending, Mrs. Burnham and Col. Fitts shoot each other,
Angela goes to New York with Jane to pursue her modeling, doesn't like it,
gets her college degree, and ends up with Lester, who found inner peace
through meditation and origami.
--
Newsgroup reviews and beyond -- http://www.best.com/~cattekin
Ghost of KalElFan
In article <19990925024137...@ng-cj1.aol.com>, judes...@aol.com
(JudeSchall) writes:
>I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from
>someone involved, in which the kids are framed for Spacey's
>murder. The film ends with their trial, and they go down for it,
>by way of the video footage and other assorted odds and ends.
>I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded, or
>just cut from the development process...
I don't know, but it is interesting. I think they made the right
decision to cut that. The ending as is, where the audience
is told it was Fitts Sr. and most presume all the blood on him
and his gun and so on will convict him, is fine. I think people
view the videotape at the beginning as another "look closer,
it's not what it appears" thing that got rectified when we saw
the whole scene. We're again realizing "hey, I shouldn't have
jumped to conclusions." Most don't think back at the end of
the movie and say "Didn't they stop the tape before they said
they were joking, and couldn't that be used to frame the kids?"
The frame-up would have made the film too long, and convicting
them would have alienated much of the mainstream audience.
I think it would have worked against the spirit of the movie too.
Lester completed his journey and died content, happy for
his daughter being in love and happy with the point he had
arrived at. It's difficult to explain how a death can't be tragic,
but this one isn't really. Whatever "dark" there was here was
effectively neutralized because of the way they told the
story. Even Carolyn being *ready* to kill him (presumably), if
Fitts Sr. hadn't, was saying that Carolyn's refusal to cross
over as Lester had was destroying her and sending her down
this path. So there was a consistent moral center here all
along: don't jump to conclusions, look closer, be honest with
yourself, etc. That's what the movie is *advocating* you do,
right?
Given that advocacy, to undo Lester's contentment at death
by having his daughter wrongfully convicted would have undone
the message and alienated people big time I think. As done,
the movie says "Look closer, be honest with yourself. Even if
they put a bullet to your head at least you'll die very happy [and
maybe even reflect on it in the afterlife]. That's better than
going through life "sedated" which is a euphemism for dead."
With this alternate ending it's a pessimistic message: "Go
ahead and look closer, and be honest with yourself you naive
idiot. You'll get a bullet to the back of your head and the
loon who pulls the trigger will frame your daugher and her first
love for it. You'll spend a hellish afterlife agonizing over that."
The movie would become much more a tragedy, much more
pessimistic, and in short much more for art film fans, :-),
and less for mainstream movie fans.
I think the message was right, and the mass audience will
respond probably much better than they ever expected.
JudeSchall
<<It's difficult to explain how a death can't be tragic,
but this one isn't really. >>
I really think this isn't the truth; it might be earned for Lester, but it is
definitely tragic for his family. Jane and Carolyn will be scarred for life and
possibly even never move past it.
Just wanted to clarify...
j
Ghost of KalElFan
(JudeSchall) writes:
><<It's difficult to explain how a death can't be tragic,
>but this one isn't really. >>
>
>I really think this isn't the truth; it might be earned for Lester, but it is
>definitely tragic for his family. Jane and Carolyn will be scarred for life
>and possibly even never move past it.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying Lester deserved to die. In fact
quite the opposite. I'm just saying that for a variety of reasons
(we knew it in advance, he died content, and his spirit or however
you want to interpret it is still talking to us), the tragic aspect of it
is muted. He gives us that little message at the end, which has
dark humor -- we're all going to understand what he means someday,
the dark humor there being we're all going to die. We don't dwell
on this joke as a downer though, because again he's talking to
us so the whole concept of death is not as "real" here. The
message becomes mainly inspirational -- get with it and stop
being so sedated, because you never know how much time
you have left (and maybe cherish every moment is in there
too).
But getting back to your point about the effect on the others. It's
a good observation in principle, because I don't think the audience
ever thinks about that and we probably should. Lester is our guide,
being the main character as well as doing the voiceovers, and so
we don't look at how it affects the others. But...
Don't you think Carolyn deserves whatever grief she gets, that
in fact she gets off easy here? She took the wrong path and
was prepared to kill him if Colonel Fitts hadn't (that's the strong
impression we get anyway).
Before getting to Jane let's look at the other characters just to
check them off. Ricky's reaction indicates that he'll be okay and
keep plugging along (absent the frame-up scenario). Fitts Sr.,
his wife and the King guy aren't impacted by this other than
Fitts Sr. going to jail presumably. Angela didn't really know
him that well. Except for Jane, we didn't see or hear mention
of any other relatives or characters that would be affected. So
up to this point in the analysis, there are few scars except ones
that Carolyn arguably deserves.
Jane is an interesting case. I agree with you there to some
extent. Assuming no frame-up, she still has to deal with the
guilt of saying she wanted him dead, even if she wasn't serious.
She never treated him very well though, and maybe all things
considered she's not that much more worthy of sympathy
than her mother is. Remember too that Angela will be able
to tell her how happy he was to know she was in love. So
that's kind of a seal of approval for her to go to New York
with Ricky, whom her dad liked very much. (Drug dealing
in New York is not much of a future, morally at least, but
maybe this shock sets them on a better path than we might
have assumed.)
So it's a good point in the sense of people overlooking it when
we maybe shouldn't have. But after thinking about it it doesn't
change my opinion that this is not the tragic ending one might
assume it has to be. In real life for completely "innocent" family
members, absolutely it would be. But we don't really have that
here, and it isn't tragic for the audience because we knew it
was coming and Lester is still talking to us after it happens.
It's very smart the way they insulate the audience from the
brunt of this. That's what allows the audience to admire the
story, acting and so on, with little emotional downside. This
is what's generating the big box office and mainstream
acceptance. Describe only the ending to someone and they
probably run like hell, not wanting to see a movie that ends
that way. But see the whole movie, and you sort of have
the same "Wow" reaction Ricky does. You marvel at how
beautiful the movie is, and are in awe of how they could have
pulled it all off so well. The more you think about it, or see
it a second time, the deeper and better it gets. I think it's
one of the best movies ever made. Spacey deserves a huge
part of the credit, but so does the whole cast and the writing
and direction.
I did not always think this by the way. I smelled an artsy-
fartsy film :-) with little mainstreal appeal. I didn't believe
some of the advance buzz, and even if I had it would only
have reinforced that this was an art not mainstream movie.
Even the trailer and ads and stills they were publishing
didn't really give you a sense of how good the movie is or
of its mainstream appeal. The "Look closer" tag line didn't
have much meaning. Spacey's performance, the reaction
shots and facial expressions and the overall way he takes
us through this could not be done justice in any trailer.
But after you see and reflect on it, WOW!
Kiki
: Don't you think Carolyn deserves whatever grief she gets, that
: in fact she gets off easy here? She took the wrong path and
: was prepared to kill him if Colonel Fitts hadn't (that's the strong
: impression we get anyway).
I don't know, a friend of mine got the impression she was going to kill
herself (she never says).
I think this is actually more likely as she seemed a very inwardly
aggressive person, slapping herself whenever she showed "weakness".
: Jane is an interesting case. I agree with you there to some
: extent. Assuming no frame-up, she still has to deal with the
: guilt of saying she wanted him dead, even if she wasn't serious.
I'm glad they didn't make her the killer though. I think her character had
merit (I mean come on, a lot of teenagers go through that I am embarrassed
by my parents phase). If she killed her father, all her merit is gone (if
she really thought he was bad enoguh to kill she was being quite whiny and
very shallow).
: She never treated him very well though, and maybe all things
: considered she's not that much more worthy of sympathy
: than her mother is. Remember too that Angela will be able
Yeah, but he wasn't all the greatest father either.
: change my opinion that this is not the tragic ending one might
: assume it has to be. In real life for completely "innocent" family
I will agree here. I think though it is the fact that he doesn't seem
upset by it at all that makes it non tragic, and the fact that we knew
about it from the start. It seemed more tragic int he beginning than after
he died I will say, but after he died it seemed like it really made him a
better person. Thoguh I say he was probably improving after he realized
the blond girl was a virgin (sorry, I am bad with names). yes, he was
having a mid life crisis, but we have to admit, while doing so he was
being a complete bastard to almost everyone (seems like he treated his
daughter's boyfriend's father with the most respect... trying to lightly
put him down after the father tries to kiss him).
: pulled it all off so well. The more you think about it, or see
: it a second time, the deeper and better it gets. I think it's
I agree here, and it tends to stick in your mind, even when you don't
think it did, heh.
: one of the best movies ever made. Spacey deserves a huge
: part of the credit, but so does the whole cast and the writing
: and direction.
Spacey is a very good actor I believe.
: I did not always think this by the way. I smelled an artsy-
: fartsy film :-) with little mainstreal appeal. I didn't believe
Nah, I smelled an artsy comedic film that could still be entertaining to
the mainstream without being too messsed up (sorry, artsy films do tend to
scare me cause the ones I have seen besides maybe What Dreams May Come,
really fucked wiht my mentaility the rest of the day> sure, they are
supposed to do that, but I don't like my mentality messed up too much and
my day wierded out, it's depressing. I like more a film taht can be
artsy without being so messed up it messes with my head).
: Even the trailer and ads and stills they were publishing
: didn't really give you a sense of how good the movie is or
: of its mainstream appeal. The "Look closer" tag line didn't
The first one I saw seemed like a film kinda like Drop Dead Gorgeous, an
artsy like film with a lot of comedy. Granted it was more artsy than I
expected but it still was good. I don't see why a film cannot be artsy
without being entertaining, and this is a good example (I don't consider
What Dreams May Come as a good movie. Sure it tries to be deep, but it
just is not very watchable).
Tigress
--
These opinions are mine, not those of Georgia Tech. It is the opinion of
Tech that I should be writing a paper on some topic or another.
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat drawn by Felix Lee
Tuttle
>
> SPOILERS...
>
> I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
> in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
> trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
> odds and ends. I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded, or just
> newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
> the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
>
> j
That's what I was thinking when I saw it and then the scene of him
turning off the camera before she says just kidding. Of course how the
movie ends, it ends perfectly with him content with life. The trial
would have just been extra and destroyed the point of the movie.
Ignoring the mainstream alienation (since I don't much care for
mainstreamness), it simply would have been out of character moviewise
Tuttle
No she wasn't. As soon as she entered she put the gun away
Obscura
>Don't you think Carolyn deserves whatever grief she gets, that
>in fact she gets off easy here? She took the wrong path and
>was prepared to kill him if Colonel Fitts hadn't (that's the strong
>impression we get anyway).
This isn't how I understood it. Yes, I felt she was initially going to kill
him but by the time she made her way from the car to the house she was
feeling
ashamed. She quickly put her purse (containing the gun) in the closet
(hamper?) and clutched the clothing crying. She wasn't going to kill him;
she
had come to her senses. I do wonder what other decisions/revelations she
had
come to at that point though: divorce, looking at how far she'd gone off
the
path, reevaluating her life, etc.
I wouldn't have liked the Carolyn character except for the fact that early
on
he says she used to be happy. I felt for her then and couldn't have that
negative a feeling towards her.
Tuttle
>
> JudeSchall wrote:
> >
> > SPOILERS...
> >
> > I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
> > in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
> > trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
> > odds and ends. I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded, or just
> > cut from the development process. Anyone else know? I know someone on this
> > newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
> > the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
> >
> > j
>
That's what I was thinking when I saw it and then the scene of him
turning off the camera before she says just kidding. I just interpreted
it as a red herring- who was going to kill Lester.
Of course with how the movie ends a trial and verdict would have
seemed a but superfluous and against what the rest of the movie was.
It would have also destroyed the point of the movie. Ignoring the
mainstream alienation (since I don't much care for mainstreamness), it
simply would have been a change of pace for the movie up to that point.
It would be an interesting piece(s) of footage to see but as the movie
is now it doesn't fit. Though if this was filmed, the cut was a wise one
(and I don't usually complement cuts like this- the anti-mainstream cut)
like with Clerks, cutting the original ending of Dante being killed.
klsa...@my-deja.com
I absolutely agree that she wasn't going to kill him. She may have
wanted to, but I think if given the opportunity, she would have stopped
herself. I get the impression that she walked into the kitchen, saw
Lester, and immediately felt the loss. She clutched his clothes in the
closet as a way to hold onto something he had been near, a way too keep
him close. Like Lester's final moments, I think Carolyn realized that
she loved and missed him.
I also agree that a whodunit and trial would have ruined the beauty of
this film. I was at a Q&A session with Sam Mendes and the cast a few
weeks ago at UCLA, and this was never even mentioned. I'm really
surprised that this newsgroup was the first place I had heard it.
Anyone know where this info came from?
Karen Lynn
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Regina Alexandra Robbins
> SPOILERS...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
> in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
> trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
> odds and ends. I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded, or just
> cut from the development process. Anyone else know? I know someone on this
> newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
> the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
Maybe someone else brought it up too, but I posted a query as to whether
anyone else noticed the deliberate setup of all the factors required for a
frameup of Ricky and Jane. I would also guess that the frameup ending
*was* shot, because otherwise, again, the sequence in the bedroom in which
Ricky videotapes Jane wouldn't have been shot and directed the way it was
-- that is, with a tremendous sense of foreboding. *Not* the foreboding
of "Oh no, are they gonna kill Daddy?" but the foreboding of "Oh no, why
did they just say something so incriminating on tape?"
RAR.
____________________________________________
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Roumania.
-- D. Parker
Regina Alexandra Robbins
> Don't you think Carolyn deserves whatever grief she gets, that
> in fact she gets off easy here? She took the wrong path and
> was prepared to kill him if Colonel Fitts hadn't (that's the strong
> impression we get anyway).
Yeah, but she didn't kill him. And it's not as if she cold-bloodedly
plotted to kill him for insurance money or the sick thrill of it all. She
just broke down to the point where she was capable of walking toward the
house with the gun ready. Who knows what would have happened if she'd
actually gone in and Lester wasn't already dead? Maybe she'd have seen
him gazing at their family photo and melted. Or not.
> Before getting to Jane let's look at the other characters just to
> check them off. Ricky's reaction indicates that he'll be okay and
> keep plugging along (absent the frame-up scenario). Fitts Sr.,
> his wife and the King guy aren't impacted by this other than
> Fitts Sr. going to jail presumably. Angela didn't really know
> him that well. Except for Jane, we didn't see or hear mention
> of any other relatives or characters that would be affected. So
> up to this point in the analysis, there are few scars except ones
> that Carolyn arguably deserves.
I'm more than a little disturbed by this anti-Carolyn feeling. What did
she do that was so bad? She cheated, which her husband would also have
done, so we can't count that. She became "joyless" and made her husband
and child's life hell because of her psychological problems. So now
mental illness is evil? I think it's made clear from the scene in the
unsold house when, in horrifying closeup, Annette Bening sobs and slaps
her own face that Carolyn is hurting herself most of all. This is why, in
spite of being Lester's antagonist, she is not ultimately hateful. In
fact, I don't think we're supposed to hate any of the characters. Even
the Colonel and Angela are redeemed in the 11th hour (yeah, I know the
Colonel is a murderer, but that doesn't make me hate him...how can you
hate someone so confused and desperate?).
In the theater in which I saw AMERICAN BEAUTY, some people laughed at the
"Stop it!" scene, which was not remotely funny to me. But people often
seem to laugh at things they don't understand.
Lorne
>I'm more than a little disturbed by this anti-Carolyn feeling. What did
>she do that was so bad? She cheated, which her husband would also have
>done, so we can't count that. She became "joyless" and made her husband
>and child's life hell because of her psychological problems. So now
>mental illness is evil?
I didn't think that she was mentally ill. I thought she was completely
self-absorbed and self-obsessed. She was a very cold, materialistic
person who cared only about herself and the way she looked to others.
> I think it's made clear from the scene in the
>unsold house when, in horrifying closeup, Annette Bening sobs and slaps
>her own face that Carolyn is hurting herself most of all. This is why, in
>spite of being Lester's antagonist, she is not ultimately hateful.
I found she did this only because of how she had made herself look
trying to sell the house. She was essentially whoring herself, in a
desperate bid to succeed. At the end of the day, the house was not
sold, and she was exhausted and felt like a failure.
> In fact, I don't think we're supposed to hate any of the characters.
I hated Carolyn.
-----
Lorne
Last three movies seen, rated out of four:
American Beauty (***1/2)
Blue Streak (*1/2)
Stir of Echoes (*1/2)
"It was kind of a kicky blast. The guys really got it together and
wailed and bent the gig outta shape."
* To reply, remove the second "o" (between the "d" and "g").
MuseMalade
:
: I'm more than a little disturbed by this anti-Carolyn feeling. What did
: she do that was so bad? She cheated, which her husband would also have
: done, so we can't count that. She became "joyless" and made her husband
: and child's life hell because of her psychological problems. So now
: unsold house when, in horrifying closeup, Annette Bening sobs and slaps
: her own face that Carolyn is hurting herself most of all. This is why, in
: fact, I don't think we're supposed to hate any of the characters.
I don't think Carolyn's evil, nor do I hate her, but not because of sympathy
for her supposed psychological problems. Rather, I sympathized with Annette
Bening as she struggled so valiantly to transcend the one-note
materialist/careerist that Ball saddled her with. I mean, really, how can you
hate a garish caricature like Carolyn? Sure, you can hate the *idea* of her
-- this Martha Stewart-ish shrew who cares more about her upholstered Italian
sofa than her husband. But when I see Annette sweating bullets, grimacing
and bawling in an effort to round Carolyn out while Spacey's having a swell
ol' time winking at the audience, I only think, geez, poor Annette, she can
only wish that Hollywood screenwriters can write parts for middle-aged females
as juicy as those for fortysomething men. Or at least as meaty as those
rebellious teen chick/Moral Center of Story characters that seem to be popping
up with surprising frequency (viz. ELECTION, LIMBO, AMERICAN BEAUTY).
MM
__________
Recently seen:
American Beauty (Mendes): B
Summer of Sam (Lee): C+
Bowfinger (Oz): B-/C+
The Sixth Sense (Shyamalan): B-
"I realized, man, you can't go through life sucking on peppermint Schnapps and
calling fucking Morocco at two in the morning."
-- Words of wisdom from Mark Borschadt in
American Movie: The Making of Northwestern
Ghost of KalElFan
Regina Alexandra Robbins <ra...@columbia.edu> writes:
>(yeah, I know the
>Colonel is a murderer, but that doesn't make me hate him...how can you
>hate someone so confused and desperate?).
I don't hate anyone in the movie, but I do make distinctions between
who's sympathetic and who's not, who I'd feel sorry for and who I
wouldn't. The Colonel is at the bottom of the list because he's the
murderer. This is another reason why the frame-up ending would
have been disastrous. At least here, we can assume he gets what's
coming to him.
I don't have that feeling to the same extent with Carolyn, but I just
can't feel sorry for her given that she stubbornly refused to ever
budge from praying to the gods of money and success, and was --
at least it appears, and no kidding -- intending to kill him at the
end. Yes, I think she's a complete basket case emotionally after
this, but most can't feel that sorry for her. At least not until looking
a lot closer. :-)
What about this message: If you think money and success
are all that matters, go deeper within yourself and imagine that
facade resisting you. Imagine refusing to admit it's just a
facade to the point you delude yourself into thinking you're
capable of murder. Then imagine the facade cracks as it must
if you're really a decent sympathetic person (your assumption
here about Carolyn, and I'm prepared to agree). But it's too late,
your husband of 20 years' brains are all over the kitchen table
and somehow the beer on the $4,000 couch doesn't matter
as much.
Looking at Carolyn that way, she is sympathetic. You have
to believe the facade would have cracked before she pulled
the trigger. That "whatever happened to that girl..." speech
we heard from Lester suggests that indeed there is that
decent person underneath.
>In the theater in which I saw AMERICAN BEAUTY, some
>people laughed at the "Stop it!" scene, which was not remotely
>funny to me. But people often seem to laugh at things they
>don't understand.
There were giggles at my showings too, but the intended
reaction is clearly yours. Again, this gets to why I don't think
people can relate to Carolyn's character or even pay much
attention to it at first. She's every bit the caricature Colonel
Fitts is. Problem is she's more subtle and we don't get
the big revelation like we do with Fitts or Angela. She remains
an enigma at the end, and you have to "look *much* closer"
to see enough to be sympathetic.
When you do look closer, you realize she's just the last one
to tear down the facade. Even Colonel Fitts is broken before
she is. She's perhaps the most tragic character of all in this
story *because* there's a sympathetic inside to her. Look
at it that way, and Bening slapping herself and a few people
giggling is, as you say, people just not getting it at the time.
She was toughening the facade. It's not a cry-baby or a
weak person or a mad-at-herself-for-not-succeeding person
inside, it's the sympathetic inside struggling to get out. But
unlike Lester she's beating it back in, berating it with the
cry-baby / wimp talk.
Once again, the movie gets deeper the more you think about
and analyze it. I'd give Oscar nominations to all of 'em, heck
I'm thinking the movie is so great let's throw in the King too.
I've been thinking about his (Peter Gallagher's) performance
and it was quite good. Good enough that in a different movie
you might give it supporting actor consideration, if you didn't
have the other 800-pound gorilla performances you have here.
So how about it, three supporting actor nominations from the
same movie? :-) (Did this ever happen with Deliverance or
anything else?)
Michael Alexander
police confiscated all of their video tapes? There is something creepy
about knowing that the police are watching all of your video tapes.
Michael Alexander
> and child's life hell because of her psychological problems.
> So now mental illness is evil?
Yes. You must think that Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy were
nice guys. If someone is evil then she is evil and it doesn't matter
whether she is mentally ill or not.
One thing I haven't heard people talk about is positive thinking versus
negative thinking. One advantage of being a pessimist is that you aren't
surprised when things go wrong. There are situations where pessimists can
outperform optimists. Carolyn listened to all those motivational tapes to
build up her confidence and make herself an optimist. She went too far and
crashed hard when she failed. The motivational tapes made her manic
depressive.
Different subject: If Lester had known in advance that he was going to die
in a year, he probably would have lived his life the same way. He would
have quit his job, taken drugs and tried to seduce a sexy girl. It is
possible that he had been having sex fantasies for years, but Angela was the
first sex fantasy to enter his house and touch him.
Thomas Andrews
Michael Alexander <kest...@worldnet.att.xxx.net> wrote:
>She became "joyless" and made her husband
>> and child's life hell because of her psychological problems.
>> So now mental illness is evil?
>
>Yes. You must think that Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy were
>nice guys. If someone is evil then she is evil and it doesn't matter
>whether she is mentally ill or not.
>
>One thing I haven't heard people talk about is positive thinking versus
>negative thinking. One advantage of being a pessimist is that you aren't
>surprised when things go wrong. There are situations where pessimists can
>outperform optimists.
I once heard about a study about people's perceptions of the lottery.
The only people who tended to have a realistic understanding of their
odds of winning the lottery were predominantly clinically depressed.
--
Thomas Andrews tho...@best.com http://www.best.com/~thomaso/
Kiki
: In the theater in which I saw AMERICAN BEAUTY, some people laughed at the
: "Stop it!" scene, which was not remotely funny to me. But people often
: seem to laugh at things they don't understand.
yeah, I noticed that. That seemed to be a very intrusive moment... here
we are watching some one who believes she is alone with no one watching
which is why she allows herself to look so silly (She woudl not have done
that in public... I mean the fact she closed the blinds emphasized that).
Kiki
: murderer. This is another reason why the frame-up ending would
Actually, I think he is sympathetic. I think Carolyn probably is the least
sympathetic character of the bunch (I mean if you try to understand she
was not always that way she can be more sympathetic, but they never show
her old self, all youg et to see is her being too worried about her career
and her sofa). She never really gets a chance to redeem herself in the
movie, the only time they really give you a chance to be sympathetic is in
the very end when she realizes how much she loved Lester but only after he
is gone.
The colonel before the end you see how sad of a character he really is...
and he realizes it, and I could see him wanting to kill Lester for
pointing it out (inadvertantly, by refusing him).
: at least it appears, and no kidding -- intending to kill him at the
: end. Yes, I think she's a complete basket case emotionally after
I still think it makes more sense that she was going to kill herself. We
see her wrestling with the gun in the car way before she even gets home..
the self help tape I think is to convince herself killing herself is not
the answer. And I really don't see her ast he outwardly aggressive, then
again it could be cause she is so internally aggressive.. she is about to
burst. I guess i can see either argument, I just like the idea that she
was going to kill herself better.
: giggling is, as you say, people just not getting it at the time.
: She was toughening the facade. It's not a cry-baby or a
: weak person or a mad-at-herself-for-not-succeeding person
: inside, it's the sympathetic inside struggling to get out. But
Yep, exactly. She didn't like herself showing her weak side by actually
getting depressed over something, she wanted to be tough.
Kiki
: She became "joyless" and made her husband
:> and child's life hell because of her psychological problems.
:> So now mental illness is evil?
: Yes. You must think that Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy were
: nice guys. If someone is evil then she is evil and it doesn't matter
: whether she is mentally ill or not.
Well, then Lester was evil even if he had good intentions and cared about
the daughter. After all, even if he cared he did leave the daughter
thinking he could care less. Intentions do count.
And isn't this a bit extreme comparing her to Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey
Dahmer, and Ted Bundy?
Regina Alexandra Robbins
> In article <7sns6p$c7o$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> Michael Alexander <kest...@worldnet.att.xxx.net> wrote:
> >She became "joyless" and made her husband
> >> and child's life hell because of her psychological problems.
> >> So now mental illness is evil?
> >
> >Yes. You must think that Adolph Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy were
> >nice guys. If someone is evil then she is evil and it doesn't matter
> >whether she is mentally ill or not.
1. What did Carolyn do that was remotely as sick as any of the above
crazies you mention?
2. Without thinking they were nice guys, I don't at all hate any of the
above people. Hitler's borderline, but that's because he shows fewer
signs of being truly out if his mind. That is, he was socially
functional. I have always been particularly perplexed at Dahmer hatred.
Yes, what he *did* was wrong, wrong, wrong, which is why he was
incarcerated. But what's the purpose of hating him? He was clearly
himself in a world of torment, which doesn't make what he did okay, but we
know he didn't do it because he thought it would be fun.
Ghost of KalElFan
Regina Alexandra Robbins <ra...@columbia.edu> writes:
>2. Without thinking they were nice guys, I don't at all hate any of the
>above people. Hitler's borderline...
Well, if that's what we were getting at with the I-don't-hate-'em
test, then hate the way we were talking about it means little.
I suppose I don't hate any of them either, because Hitler was
before I was born and I didn't have family members personally
affected by any of these three.
But if someone were to ask me "Knowing what you know today,
would you have put a bullet through the back of the head of any
one of these three bastards before they had the chance to kill
(10, 20, millions depending which one you're talking about)?"
my answer would be yes. They're just not in the same moral
universe as Carolyn, so I agree with you the comparison was
wrong. But it also indicates that the hate test was meaningless
as you and I were discussing it.
(Caveat: I'm speaking in terms of a moral judgment about the
individuals when I use the pure example above, i.e. assuming
you knew for certain the consequences of pulling versus not pulling
the trigger. In reality you of course never know. Maybe if you
killed Hitler, depending when you did it and how, things could
theoretically have turned out worse. Maybe his replacement
doesn't attack Russia, you still have the concentration camps,
Fascism and Communism eventually overrun democracy, the
bomb gets into the hands of both extremes and we have a
nuclear war.)
walker
judes...@aol.com (JudeSchall) wrote:
> SPOILERS...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I heard today of the original ending of American Beauty from someone involved,
> in which the kids are framed for Spacey's murder. The film ends with their
> trial, and they go down for it, by way of the video footage and other assorted
> odds and ends. I don't know if this ending was ever shot and discarded,
or just
> cut from the development process. Anyone else know? I know someone on this
> newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
> the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
>
> j
This seemed the place the story was heading -- and there was nothing
in the conclusion to suggest that this is not where it was going after
the credits ran.
Regina Alexandra Robbins
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.990927...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>,
> Regina Alexandra Robbins <ra...@columbia.edu> writes:
>
> >(yeah, I know the
> >Colonel is a murderer, but that doesn't make me hate him...how can you
> >hate someone so confused and desperate?).
>
> I don't hate anyone in the movie, but I do make distinctions between
> who's sympathetic and who's not, who I'd feel sorry for and who I
> wouldn't. The Colonel is at the bottom of the list because he's the
> murderer. This is another reason why the frame-up ending would
> have been disastrous. At least here, we can assume he gets what's
> coming to him.
So movies are only satisfying when they portray a just world?
> I don't have that feeling to the same extent with Carolyn, but I just
> can't feel sorry for her given that she stubbornly refused to ever
> budge from praying to the gods of money and success, and was --
> at least it appears, and no kidding -- intending to kill him at the
> end. Yes, I think she's a complete basket case emotionally after
> this, but most can't feel that sorry for her. At least not until looking
> a lot closer. :-)
But the question is: *why* can't she budge? Just because she's stubborn
or something? Or because she somehow began to believe that her value as a
human being was based on material success? This is a message that lots
and lots of people receive from our culture every day, particularly women,
who are not people but chiefly objects in all forms of media, generally
speaking (yes, of *course* there are notable exceptions...).
> >In the theater in which I saw AMERICAN BEAUTY, some
> >people laughed at the "Stop it!" scene, which was not remotely
> >funny to me. But people often seem to laugh at things they
> >don't understand.
>
> There were giggles at my showings too, but the intended
> reaction is clearly yours. Again, this gets to why I don't think
> people can relate to Carolyn's character or even pay much
> attention to it at first. She's every bit the caricature Colonel
> Fitts is. Problem is she's more subtle and we don't get
> the big revelation like we do with Fitts or Angela. She remains
> an enigma at the end, and you have to "look *much* closer"
> to see enough to be sympathetic.
Self-battery makes one a caricature? This is a real thing, you know.
Ghost of KalElFan
Regina Alexandra Robbins <ra...@columbia.edu> writes:
>So movies are only satisfying when they portray a just world?
For mainstream audiences, yes I think so but in any case people
do make judgments about the characters. I think the Colonel
Fitts case is very clear. You can dissect him as a troubled
person and so on, the same way you can any murderer and
try to explain why they did it, but it doesn't excuse it.
>But the question is: *why* can't she budge? Just because
>she's stubborn or something? Or because she somehow
>began to believe that her value as a human being was based
>on material success?
Probably the latter, and beliefs are almost impossible to change.
It still won't change people's reaction to the character though. For
example a character could have developed racist or misogynist
or anti-semitic beliefs, because they got in with a certain crowd
of people at an early age and began to feel that their membership
in that group was important to their identity or value as a human
being. Then maybe they go out and commit crimes that flow
from such beliefs. It's still wrong, regardless of how they got
there.
In Carolyn's case it's not as bad, but her overemphasis on
material things is a big barrier to any kind of audience sympathy,
especially in this movie where Lester and Ricky are tugging us
in the other direction.
>Self-battery makes one a caricature? This is a real thing, you
>know.
I meant her materialism, not self-battery. I don't know how
common self-battery is. If you include anorexia and alcoholism
and drug use and falling in with bad guys and other forms of
self-abuse, I guess it's common. Especially among women
who grow up in certain kinds of environments. But I doubt
what we see here with Carolyn is all that common. Talking
to yourself maybe, but the slapping and crying and so on
I doubt it. So I don't think that part of the character was a
caricature, just the money-grubbing, success-worshipping,
keep-up-with-the-Jonses aspect of her personality.
JudeSchall
weeks ago at UCLA, and this was never even mentioned. I'm really
surprised that this newsgroup was the first place I had heard it.
Anyone know where this info came from?>>
1. The script.
2. Someone on here mentioned Mendes said it in an Amazon.com interview.
3. A studio executive I had lunch with corroborated it.
If anyone knows more, please post...
walker
> She became "joyless" and made her husband
> > and child's life hell because of her psychological problems.
> > So now mental illness is evil?
The idea that she made this trip to joyless all by herself is pretty
goofy. THEIR marriage drifted into joylessness. Any reason to think that
this man who apparently didn't try to have a real conversation with his
daughter for months at a time is the blameless victim? These two grownups
allowed their lives and their relationship to whither and die. They both
made the trip and given the dynamics of most marriage, he probably took
the initial steps. She was a housewife and mother who later took a job --
what kind of husband and father was HE before this. The fact that her role
is less fleshed out and less sympathetic is probably because guys wrote
the script and have more sympathy for male midlife crisis than female.
Kiki
: walker <wal...@dnvnl.com> wrote:
:>She was a housewife and mother who later took a job --
:>what kind of husband and father was HE before this. The fact that her role
:>is less fleshed out and less sympathetic is probably because guys wrote
:>the script and have more sympathy for male midlife crisis than female.
: What a load of claptrap! You sure are presuming a lot from a fictional
: piece in order to carry off your man-hating diatribe. Repeat after me,
: it's FICTION.
She/he was posing questions which I don't see anywhere in your response as
to why they were invalid. Why don't you give an intelligent argument whey
they are invalid instead of just insulting the poster?
I find what walker said an interesting thing to contemplaet, and could be
very true. I mean no one seems to blame Lester for ignoring his daughter
(and whether he really cared or not, doesn't matter, he still ignored
her).
Charles L Isbell
> I once heard about a study about people's perceptions of the lottery.
> The only people who tended to have a realistic understanding of their
> odds of winning the lottery were predominantly clinically depressed.
No, it's funnier than that.
"Normal" people *vastly* overestimate their probability of success at
practically everything. Those who were doing this study hypothesized
that depressed individuals would underestimate. Turns out they were
wrong; the clinically depressed get it almost exactly right.
In other words, in order to be happy you need to be deluded about your
life chances (or maybe just bad at math). Once you have a realistic
view of the world (or are good at math, or whatever) you're depressed.
I suppose it could go the other way (ie being depressed leads one to
a more realistic view of the world), but it's funnier said the other
way around.
*I* think it's funny, anyway.
My job here is done.
--
Peace.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."
-- Crow T. Robot
-\--/-
Don't just adopt opinions | \/ | Some of you are homeboys
develop them. | /\ | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
-/--\-
McNeeley
make my day. I can find a lot of data on depression, but I'd love to
know exact details about this lottery thing.
On 29 Sep 1999 06:54:34 -0400, Charles L Isbell <isb...@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
Cheers,
Todd
------------------------------------------
Spam is evil! Email me at:
mcneeley at donet dot com
------------------------------------------
The statistics on sanity are
that one out of every four
Americans is suffering from
some form of mental illness.
Think of your three best
friends. If they're okay,
then it's you.
---Rita Mae Brown
(1944-present,
playwright/author)
------------------------------------------
Charles L Isbell
> In all seriousness, a link to this study, or similar studies whould
> make my day. I can find a lot of data on depression, but I'd love to
> know exact details about this lottery thing.
I wish I could help; I just don't remember where I saw it.
--
Peace.
"I took a course in speed reading and was able to read 'War and
Peace' in twenty minutes. It's about Russia."
Woody Allen
fishbowl
JudeSchall <judes...@aol.com> wrote:
>SPOILERS...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Anyone else know? I know someone on this
>newsgroup proposed this as a possibility, so I called a friend of mine and got
>the answer -- so whoever guessed this, congrats! You were right.
I suddenly don't like the movie. Not because it's a bad movie, but
because it's so fscking good. This bothers me. It'll probably
leave me with bad dreams.
--
-fishbowl-