Sixth Sense (spoiler): Did the boy know from the start?
da...@cybercorpse.com
Great twist at the end of the film. Obviously once you know that Willis
character is a ghost, all the little clues you saw earlier in the
movie that point to it spring to mind, but...
Is there any indication in the film at all that the little boy
recognized Willis as a ghost from the first meeting?
The only one I might have seen is where the boy runs to the church
after Willis is seen across the street; but the boys actions in the
church aren't typical of his dealings with all the other appartions --
he runs in terror from the rest, but has normal conversations with
Willis.
If the boy didn't know from the start, I'm curious when the boy first
realized it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Lynn
church. At first he starts of walking slowly and then he picks up his
pace. In the church he was crouched down and hiding, but perhaps he didn't
get super scared because Willis didn't look scary like the other ghosts. If
I remember right, the other ghosts had cuts or wounds or other scary things.
Lynn
zm1...@my-deja.com
about Malcolm with his mother. If he didn't think Malcolm was a ghost
they would he had to eventually mention him or wonder why his mother
never mentioned him.
In article <37C01B29...@psn.net>,
a_v...@my-deja.com
zm1...@my-deja.com wrote:
> He probably did know from the beginning which is why he never talked
> about Malcolm with his mother. If he didn't think Malcolm was a ghost
> they would he had to eventually mention him or wonder why his mother
> never mentioned him.
>
> In article <37C01B29...@psn.net>,
> Lynn <was...@psn.net> wrote:
> > I think the boy new from the very begining when he was running into
> the
> > church. At first he starts of walking slowly and then he picks up
> his
> > pace. In the church he was crouched down and hiding, but perhaps he
> didn't
> > get super scared because Willis didn't look scary like the other
> ghosts. If
> > I remember right, the other ghosts had cuts or wounds or other scary
> things.
> >
This is definitely THE question about this move: Does the kid know?? I'm
going to have to go with NO..There's no temperature change when Malcom is
around- the kid isn't breathing out smoke all the time. I'm assuming Malcom
isn't walking around with a bloody knife wound in his back either the whole
time, because we saw it materialize when he finally figured it out for
himself...This is the one loop hole i keep dwelling on..But don't get me
wrong, it still blew me away.
Patman
For the 10th time or so, it only gets cold when ghost get angry or are
agitated. Malcom was never angry or agitated when he was around Cole,
thus, no visible breath. We never see Malcom from the backside without
a coat covering up the bloody back exit wound.
--
************** A random quote from Heathers: ************
"People love you, but *I* know you."
*** My WWW home page: http://www.io.com/~patman/ *****
shar...@see.my.sig.org
Cole sees Malcolm as he really is. A man, wearing a blue shirt, who
has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
Another thing about ghosts according to Cole is that he knows when
they are near because he has a sensation of falling even though he
isn't. I don't recall the exact words, but that's the gist.
Cole knew from right from the start.
Steve
sharknas(at)umcc(dot)ais(dot)org
Correct address above
a_v...@my-deja.com
wrote:> pat...@fnord.io.com (Patman) wrote:> > >In article
MasonBarge
.
.
.
.
.
>
>Cole sees Malcolm as he really is. A man, wearing a blue shirt, who
>has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
>himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
>at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
No, this can't be right. We see all the ghosts as they appeared at the time of
death or something. Willis has apparently found a tailor who will sell to the
public without regard to race, religion, or temporal sphere.
>
>Another thing about ghosts according to Cole is that he knows when
>they are near because he has a sensation of falling even though he
>isn't.
This is an extremely good point. The boy senses when ghosts are around by
physical feelings. Score one for the "he knew Crow was a ghost" team.
- Mason Barge
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
Volfie
>SPOILERS
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>>
>>Cole sees Malcolm as he really is. A man, wearing a blue shirt, who
>>has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
>>himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
>>at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
Aren't these all things he had worn the night he was shot? I know the
sweatshirt was the same one because it had a distinctive logo on it. The suit,
coat, vest, etc. were all things he had worn to get his award. It never was a
different color shirt or suit; it was all variations of the outfit he had worn
in the last hours of his life.
Volfie -> with the possible exception of that danged raincoat but I'll allow
that could have been in a scene that hit the editing floor
Shawn Hill
: Spoiler space:
: Great twist at the end of the film. Obviously once you know that Willis
: character is a ghost, all the little clues you saw earlier in the
: movie that point to it spring to mind, but...
: Is there any indication in the film at all that the little boy
: recognized Willis as a ghost from the first meeting?
: The only one I might have seen is where the boy runs to the church
: after Willis is seen across the street; but the boys actions in the
: church aren't typical of his dealings with all the other appartions --
: he runs in terror from the rest, but has normal conversations with
: Willis.
: If the boy didn't know from the start, I'm curious when the boy first
: realized it.
he knew from the start. Bruce was just very different than most of the ghosts
he ran into: more articulate, more respectful, less violent.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>
:>SPOILERS
This doesn't need to be "explained" either. Bruce was obviously a cut or two
above your average ghost. Who knows why ... maybe because he was such a smart
guy, maybe because he was so kind, maybe a million reasons. He could dream up
new outfits for himself, he wasn't just replaying the moment of his death or
of his greatest pain like a lot of the other ones. He was most analogous to
the little girl, who had a definite agenda from beyond the grave: to reveal
her killer.
Shawn
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>>
>>SPOILERS
>>
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>
>>>
>>>Cole sees Malcolm as he really is. A man, wearing a blue shirt, who
>>>has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
>>>himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
>>>at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
>
>Aren't these all things he had worn the night he was shot? I know the
>sweatshirt was the same one because it had a distinctive logo on it. The suit,
>coat, vest, etc. were all things he had worn to get his award. It never was a
>different color shirt or suit; it was all variations of the outfit he had worn
>in the last hours of his life.
>
Yes.
>Volfie -> with the possible exception of that danged raincoat but I'll allow
>that could have been in a scene that hit the editing floor
>
I think one can assume that Malcolm and Anna had just returned from
the awards ceremony, and that he had worn that overcoat earlier.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>SPOILERS
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>>
>>Cole sees Malcolm as he really is. A man, wearing a blue shirt, who
>>has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
>>himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
>>at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
>
>No, this can't be right. We see all the ghosts as they appeared at the time of
>death or something. Willis has apparently found a tailor who will sell to the
>public without regard to race, religion, or temporal sphere.
>
The only time we see other ghosts are when Cole is present. We see
them as they appear to him and as they appeared at the time of their
deaths.
Malcolm is presented differently. He is in many scenes without Cole
and we are given his view of himself. For continuity, and to fool the
audience, we see Malcolm's self-image whenever he and Cole are
together.
>>Another thing about ghosts according to Cole is that he knows when
>>they are near because he has a sensation of falling even though he
>>isn't.
>
>This is an extremely good point. The boy senses when ghosts are around by
>physical feelings. Score one for the "he knew Crow was a ghost" team.
>
Steve
sharknas(at)umcc(dot)ais(dot)org
Correct address above
MasonBarge
>and we are given his view of himself. For continuity, and to fool the
>audience, we see Malcolm's self-image whenever he and Cole are
>together.
>
Well, that's a good point, i.e. that we see Crow by himself. I don't really
think that we see him differently than Cole sees him, though. It looks to me
like Shyamalan was trying to make the inconsistency as small as possible,
without spending a lot of time on it (i.e. making Crow appear as he looked at
his death without showing his wound). So Crow is always dressed in the same
clothes he was wearing around the time of his death, but has his jacket and
overcoat off when he was shot, and is then allowed to put them back on.
It doesn't bother me a lot, even though it might be a minor inconsistency. But
if an explanation is needed, yours might be better.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>>Malcolm is presented differently. He is in many scenes without Cole
>>and we are given his view of himself. For continuity, and to fool the
>>audience, we see Malcolm's self-image whenever he and Cole are
>>together.
>>
>
>Well, that's a good point, i.e. that we see Crow by himself. I don't really
>think that we see him differently than Cole sees him, though. It looks to me
>like Shyamalan was trying to make the inconsistency as small as possible,
>without spending a lot of time on it (i.e. making Crow appear as he looked at
>his death without showing his wound). So Crow is always dressed in the same
>clothes he was wearing around the time of his death, but has his jacket and
>overcoat off when he was shot, and is then allowed to put them back on.
>
>It doesn't bother me a lot, even though it might be a minor inconsistency. But
>if an explanation is needed, yours might be better.
>
>
>- Mason Barge
I think what you're saying is that Malcolm can project a self-image
that Cole could see. If Malcolm's self-image changes, Cole's
perception of Malcom changes as well.
Some points to ponder:
Quotes (not exact) from Cole about ghosts. "They Don't know they're
dead," "They see what they want to see," and "They continue as if they
were still living."
Malcolm thinks he is living so, in his mind, he changes clothes from
time to time. All the other ghosts (with one exception) we see just
once. I think it fair to assume that we and Cole see them just as they
appeared when they died. The exception, Cara, we see twice, and she
doesn't change clothes or look different from one appearance to the
next.
If we are seeing them just as they appeared at the time they died,
then it is reasonable to assume Cole sees Malcolm that way in spite of
Malcom's perception of himself.
If ghosts can choose a self-image to project for others to see, why
project the gruesome details of their wounds? Why would the burned
woman wear charred clothing? But Malcolm appears as he would in real
life?
We can only go by the few clues Shyamalan provides. I think it a
reasonable assumption to believe that Cole saw Malcolm, as he did the
other ghosts, exactly as he was dressed when he died.
Toan Hoang
afraid of ghosts and he wants to make them disappear. I think he's
afraid of them because they are ghost not because of how they look.
They look the same at the accident with wound and blood, but I don't
think that would scare Cole. The fact that they are ghosts that scare
Cole and he want them to go away. So, if he knew Bruce's character
was a ghost, then he would be afraid of the other since he already had
contacted one. If he knew Bruce's character was a ghost, he would
probably ask the question of why is he being bother instead of having
a normal conversation with him.
Shawn Hill
: contacted one. If he knew Bruce's character was a ghost, he would
: probably ask the question of why is he being bother instead of having
: a normal conversation with him.
he is scared of him. He runs and hides in a church. It is only when Malcolm
turns out not to be violent or gruesome that he begins to develop a
relationship with him.
Shawn
Toan Hoang
Not all ghosts he saw are violent either, but Cole seems to be afaid
of all of them except Malcolm. I think that if you were to believe in
ghosts and afraid of them your whole life. Just because they are not
violent will make you stay and talk to them on the first contact.
Remember, whenever someone that is mentally disturb, it takes a long
time to cure or cope with it and that's how Cole gradually realize
that ghosts are not as scary as they are.
Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
teacher has a studder (sp?) problem? I know that he was able to see
ghosts, but he doesn't have the ability to see the past. That still
confuses me. I know that ghosts are from the past, that is if they
die. That doesn't mean it's from someone's past though.
- Toan -
Alex Sun
I think given the facts and clues alluded to in the movie, you can't but
assume that at some point, Cole realizes that Malcolm is a ghost. It's
immaterial, from the audiences' viewpoint, however, when he realizes it. In
order to "hide" the surprise ending, you can't possibly show any
terrified-of-the-ghost-reaction from Cole if and when he realizes Malcolm is
a ghost. Yet you can and must extrapolate from the clues given throughout
the movie that Cole does realize he is a ghost, even if the director won't
lead you to the direct scene or instance when Cole comes to the realization.
Furthermore, it is only natural that we would not be explicitly directed to
the scene where Cole comes to the realization, as the sequences involving
Malcolm are all seen from his viewpoint, and he will only see what he wants
to see.
Mollybloom
Toan Hoang wrote:
>
> On 24 Aug 1999 16:51:18 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> >Toan Hoang <to...@hoang.com> wrote:
> >
> >: contacted one. If he knew Bruce's character was a ghost, he would
> >: probably ask the question of why is he being bother instead of having
> >: a normal conversation with him.
> >
> >he is scared of him. He runs and hides in a church. It is only when Malcolm
> >turns out not to be violent or gruesome that he begins to develop a
> >relationship with him.
> >
> >Shawn
>
> Not all ghosts he saw are violent either, but Cole seems to be afaid
> of all of them except Malcolm. I think that if you were to believe in
> ghosts and afraid of them your whole life. Just because they are not
> violent will make you stay and talk to them on the first contact.
> Remember, whenever someone that is mentally disturb, it takes a long
> time to cure or cope with it and that's how Cole gradually realize
> that ghosts are not as scary as they are.
Cole clearly was afraid of Malcolm, and it's also pretty clear that he
has more violent reactions to some ghosts than others.
> Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
> teacher has a studder (sp?) problem? I know that he was able to see
> ghosts, but he doesn't have the ability to see the past. That still
> confuses me. I know that ghosts are from the past, that is if they
> die. That doesn't mean it's from someone's past though.
He was in touch with the ghost who experienced the fire at the school,
who, one can assume, knew the teacher and told Cole.
Molly
********************************
Elvis and I fry up Demerol tablets and bacon grease-- "Elvis & I"
---Denis Leary
VM
> Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
> teacher has a studder (sp?) problem? I know that he was able to see
> ghosts, but he doesn't have the ability to see the past. That still
> confuses me. I know that ghosts are from the past, that is if they
> die. That doesn't mean it's from someone's past though.
First, how do you know Cole doesn't have the ability
to see the past? There's no rule that says someone
can only have *one* type of extrasensory perception.*
Gifted people are often gifted in many different
areas.
Still, we have no way of knowing. We can only guess
at various possibilities.
1) ESP, to either read Stanley's mind or see the past.
2) A ghost told him (unlikely, at that point).
3) He had heard ghosts talking about it.
One of the nice little touches of the classroom
scene was when Cole raised his hand, Stanley
was obviously VERY surprised, a slick way to
communicate that Cole hardly ever raised his
hand in class to participate. Nice one on the
actor's part, and the director too, using the
teacher's simple vocal inflection to tell us
some pretty interesting information about Cole.
V.
* I don't believe in ghosts or esp or the blair witch or
santy claus or god or the tooth fairy, for that matter.
I'm just talking about what can be plausable in movies
and lore.
Toan Hoang
wrote:
>
>
>Toan Hoang wrote:
>>
>> On 24 Aug 1999 16:51:18 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Toan Hoang <to...@hoang.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >: contacted one. If he knew Bruce's character was a ghost, he would
>> >: probably ask the question of why is he being bother instead of having
>> >: a normal conversation with him.
>> >
>> >he is scared of him. He runs and hides in a church. It is only when Malcolm
>> >turns out not to be violent or gruesome that he begins to develop a
>> >relationship with him.
>> >
>> >Shawn
>>
>> Not all ghosts he saw are violent either, but Cole seems to be afaid
>> of all of them except Malcolm. I think that if you were to believe in
>> ghosts and afraid of them your whole life. Just because they are not
>> violent will make you stay and talk to them on the first contact.
>> Remember, whenever someone that is mentally disturb, it takes a long
>> time to cure or cope with it and that's how Cole gradually realize
>> that ghosts are not as scary as they are.
>
>
>Cole clearly was afraid of Malcolm, and it's also pretty clear that he
>has more violent reactions to some ghosts than others.
>
But, he got comfortable to Malcolm too fast if he knew Malcolm was a
ghost. Not until he realize that ghosts only bother him because they
needed his help until he really gets comfortable with them and start
talking to them.
>> Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
>> teacher has a studder (sp?) problem? I know that he was able to see
>> ghosts, but he doesn't have the ability to see the past. That still
>> confuses me. I know that ghosts are from the past, that is if they
>> die. That doesn't mean it's from someone's past though.
>
Kenneth Crudup
to...@hoang.com (Toan Hoang) says:
(mild spoiler)
>Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
>teacher has a [stuttering] problem?
My money's on the drama(?) teacher burned in the fire. I saw it again this
weekend (rare for me for any movie) and noticed that right before his tirade
on the history teacher, that he sort of looks off to the side for a minute.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup, Unix Software Consultant, Scott County Consulting
Home1: 8051 Newell St. #914 Silver Spring, MD 20910-0914 (301) 562-1922
Home2: 5355 Farwell Pl. #242 Fremont, CA 94536-7222 (510) 794-8040
Work: 19420 Homestead Road Cupertino, CA 95014 (408) 447-6654
Mollybloom
Okay, well then, there isn't any reason to discuss it if you're sure of
your feelings. I disagree, however, and that's fine, too.
FIFI
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
Okay, I just wanted to say I've really enjoyed the discussion going on in
this newsgroup! I've seen Sixth Sense 3 times now and it's my favourite
movie this summer! I really hope Haley Joel Osment gets that Oscar
nomination that he deserves.
I just wanted to jump in on a few points. The first has to do with the
question "did Cole know from the beginning?" I think he did. One point
that I don't think anyone else has made yet (but I could be wrong!) was that
line Cole says to Malcolm at the church:
Cole: "Are you a good doctor?"
I read this line as Cole's way of asking "are you a good ghost?" To me he
seemed like he was testing the waters. Malcolm's response "I used to be a
good doctor..I even got an award from the Mayor" seemed to reassure Cole
that Malcolm was a non-threatening ghost.
I agree with others here that he knew Malcolm was a ghost from the beginning
and that's why he ran to the church. He was apprehensive about talking to
Malcolm in the church and he was apprehensive about talking to him the
second time he sees him at his house, when they play the mind reading game.
Here's the second *minor* point I wanted to address:
> >Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
> >teacher has a [stuttering] problem?
>
> My money's on the drama(?) teacher burned in the fire. I saw it again this
> weekend (rare for me for any movie) and noticed that right before his
tirade
> on the history teacher, that he sort of looks off to the side for a
minute.
I don't think that burned lady told him about the teacher's stuttering
problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
years ago????
I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.
FIFI
Twc6
> >teacher has a [stuttering] problem?
>
> My money's on the drama(?) teacher burned in the fire. I saw it again this
> weekend (rare for me for any movie) and noticed that right before his
tirade
> on the history teacher, that he sort of looks off to the side for a
minute.
I don't think that burned lady told him about the teacher's stuttering
problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
years ago????>>
No, the teacher says that the fire happened when he went to school.
<<I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.>>
Of course this happened BEFORE he started listening to the ghosts
MasonBarge
>2) A ghost told him (unlikely, at that point).
>
Why is this unlikely? It seems the most logical explanation to me. Seeing and
communicating with ghosts is the only bizarre power attributed to Cole.
MasonBarge
>and that's why he ran to the church.
This is maybe the best point and one I had forgotten. Cole sees Malcolm and
immediately runs to sanctuary. When Cole is able to enter the church and
approaches him so gently, he starts to trust him.
Of course, the really brilliant thing about this is that it reflects how most
children are at a certain age. Extremely shy with an unknown adult but willing
to be persuaded, and fairly quickly.
Volfie
Mason asked:
>Why is this unlikely? It seems the most logical explanation to me.
I agree here. Just because Cole wasn't talking *back* to them yet doesn't mean
he couldn't hear them -- he obviously could. Besides that, the ghost could
have been there addressing "Stuttering Stanley" and trying to get *his*
attention which Cole overheard.
There're a few plausible explainations for Cole's knowledge, IMHO.
Volfie -> personally I'd be asking the ghosts about undiscovered stashes of
money and jewels, but, hey, that's just me...
Shawn Hill
: On 24 Aug 1999 16:51:18 GMT, Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
: Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
: teacher has a studder (sp?) problem? I know that he was able to see
: ghosts, but he doesn't have the ability to see the past. That still
: confuses me. I know that ghosts are from the past, that is if they
: die. That doesn't mean it's from someone's past though.
stutter. Two possibilities: a ghost told him, or he's psychic with the living,
too.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: But, he got comfortable to Malcolm too fast if he knew Malcolm was a
: ghost. Not until he realize that ghosts only bother him because they
: needed his help until he really gets comfortable with them and start
: talking to them.
but Malcolm behaved differently than the others from the start; was more
respectful, more articulate, more reassuring, and went through a careful
getting acquainted period, probably due to his training as a psychiatrist.
Some ghosts are more evolved than others.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: S
: P
: O
: I
: L
: E
: R
: S
: I don't think that burned lady told him about the teacher's stuttering
: problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
: years ago????
No, the hangings did. The burned lady seemed to be dressed like the 1950s.
Shawn
Toan Hoang
>S
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>L
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>E
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>R
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>S
>
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>
>I just wanted to jump in on a few points. The first has to do with the
>question "did Cole know from the beginning?" I think he did. One point
>that I don't think anyone else has made yet (but I could be wrong!) was that
>line Cole says to Malcolm at the church:
>
>Cole: "Are you a good doctor?"
>
>I read this line as Cole's way of asking "are you a good ghost?" To me he
>seemed like he was testing the waters. Malcolm's response "I used to be a
>good doctor..I even got an award from the Mayor" seemed to reassure Cole
>that Malcolm was a non-threatening ghost.
>
I think Cole meant what he said just because he really wants to get
cured. Since no other doctors can help him or will believe in what he
thinks. Cole did mention to Malcolm that he didn't think Malcolm can
help him. If he knew Malcolm was a ghost, wouldn't asking Malcolm why
he bothers Cole or tell Malcolm to go away would be helping Cole?
Oh, by the way, how did Cole knows ghosts can't see each other.
Obviously, Cole has never talk to any ghosts before, that's why he
never knew that all ghosts want is his help. So, if he never talk to
them, how did he know they can't see each other?
- Toan -
>I agree with others here that he knew Malcolm was a ghost from the beginning
>and that's why he ran to the church. He was apprehensive about talking to
>Malcolm in the church and he was apprehensive about talking to him the
>second time he sees him at his house, when they play the mind reading game.
>
>Here's the second *minor* point I wanted to address:
>
>I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
>teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.
>
>FIFI
>
>
>
walker
> > >Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
> >
> > My money's on the drama(?) teacher burned in the fire. I saw it again this
> > weekend (rare for me for any movie) and noticed that right before his
> tirade
> > on the history teacher, that he sort of looks off to the side for a
> minute.
>
> problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
> years ago????
No it didn't. And the drama teacher specifically mjentioned the fire
to Cole which suggested that he was there -- as teacher or student
when the first took place and knew the dead teacher.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:33:50 GMT, "FIFI" <FI...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>S
>>
>>P
>>
>>O
>>
>>I
>>
>>L
>>
>>E
>>
>>R
>>
>>S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I just wanted to jump in on a few points. The first has to do with the
>>question "did Cole know from the beginning?" I think he did. One point
>>that I don't think anyone else has made yet (but I could be wrong!) was that
>>line Cole says to Malcolm at the church:
>>
>>Cole: "Are you a good doctor?"
>>
>>I read this line as Cole's way of asking "are you a good ghost?" To me he
>>seemed like he was testing the waters. Malcolm's response "I used to be a
>>good doctor..I even got an award from the Mayor" seemed to reassure Cole
>>that Malcolm was a non-threatening ghost.
>>
>
>I think Cole meant what he said just because he really wants to get
>cured. Since no other doctors can help him or will believe in what he
>thinks. Cole did mention to Malcolm that he didn't think Malcolm can
>help him. If he knew Malcolm was a ghost, wouldn't asking Malcolm why
>he bothers Cole or tell Malcolm to go away would be helping Cole?
>
He is intrigued by Malcolm and hasn't made up his mind about him. He
isn't especially afraid of Malcolm, either after that second meeting.
>Oh, by the way, how did Cole knows ghosts can't see each other.
>Obviously, Cole has never talk to any ghosts before, that's why he
>never knew that all ghosts want is his help.
But he has talked to ghosts, his grandmother's ghost, for one, and
it's reasonable to assume he had tried to talk to other ghosts. The
attempts either failed or provoke hostile or nonsense responses.
> So, if he never talk to
>them, how did he know they can't see each other?
>
>- Toan -
Perhaps through observation. Cole has never seen ghosts interact, so
he assumes it is impossible.
I think the main purpose for Shyamalan giving the audience that little
tidbit is to further mislead the audience from realizing that Malcolm
is a ghosts while at the same time providing a clue that he is. Quite
clever.
Unknown
:>I agree with others here that he knew Malcolm was a ghost from the beginning
:>and that's why he ran to the church.
: This is maybe the best point and one I had forgotten. Cole sees Malcolm and
: immediately runs to sanctuary. When Cole is able to enter the church and
: approaches him so gently, he starts to trust him.
In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive my poor
memory) that they had an appointment that day, for which Malcolm
apologized for missing? Doesn't that imply some prior meeting between
the two? Or was it a ruse to allow Malcolm to get into a conversation
with Cole?
Stephen Thompson
tw...@aol.com.org (Twc6) wrote:
>>I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
>>teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.
>Of course this happened BEFORE he started listening to the ghosts
Didn't he indicate that he's talked to his grandmother's ghost before? And he
listens to Malcolm, of course. (He's hesitant about it, of course, but not so
much that it seemed like a totally new experience for him.) He doesn't talk
with most ghosts, because they're scary. The movie offers exceptions, though,
so I assume there are others. And he would presumably have no choice but to
listen to what they're saying sometimes, when he can't leave or react because
of the situation.
I was thinking that Cole might just have overheard the ghost yelling at the
teacher, instead of actually being *told*, as in a conversation. There's a
problem with this explanation, though. If a ghost is talking to the teacher,
why would Cole assume the ghost even had the right guy? He knows that ghosts
sometimes think the living are people they knew, when they aren't.
===========================================================================
1999 so far... 1. Rushmore 2. Go 3. The Sixth Sense 4. Mystery Men 5. Austin
Powers II 6. Eyes Wide Shut 7. The Matrix 8. The Phantom Menace 9. The Blair
Witch Project 10. South Park 11. Summer of Sam 12. 8MM 13. Bowfinger 14.
Payback 15. Deep Blue Sea 16. The Mummy 17. Tarzan 18. The Mod Squad 19. The
General's Daughter 20. True Crime 21. Entrapment 22. The Rage: Carrie 2
Stephen Thompson
Andrea Beam <> wrote:
>MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
>In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive my poor
>memory) that they had an appointment that day, for which Malcolm
>apologized for missing?
He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet earlier. At the time,
I had the impression that the meeting was supposed to be earlier that day. Now
I wonder if I filled in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the
movie got me to do in so many places. Does anyone remember for sure?
Kenneth Crudup
to...@hoang.com (Toan Hoang) says:
>>S
>>
>>P
>>
>>O
>>
>>I
>>
>>L
>>
>>E
>>
>>R
>>
>>S
>Oh, by the way, how did Cole knows ghosts can't see each other.
>Obviously, Cole has never talk to any ghosts before, that's why he
>never knew that all ghosts want is his help. So, if he never talk to
>them, how did he know they can't see each other?
They've probably collided with one another at one point, or been oblivious
to the presence of another ghost that Cole can obviously see.
IrishRose
AND you can tell from the clothes of the burned teacher's ghost....
looked fairly recent.....60s-ish standard shirt dress and sweater.
Linda
--
@->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->---
"Not Everything that is beautiful is good.....
But everything that is Good is beautiful"
@->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->---
VM
(SPOILERS)
On 25 Aug 1999, Volfie wrote:
> >>2) A ghost told him (unlikely, at that point).
> Mason asked:
> >Why is this unlikely? It seems the most logical explanation to me.
> I agree here. Just because Cole wasn't talking *back* to them yet doesn't mean
> he couldn't hear them -- he obviously could. Besides that, the ghost could
> have been there addressing "Stuttering Stanley" and trying to get *his*
> attention which Cole overheard.
Yeah, I think you guys are right. I should have
expanded my original post a bit more and
thought about it more.
I don't have my original post, but I think my
3rd possibility was that he overheard ghosts
talking, which seemed most likely to me.
I considered my 2nd point above to be unlikely
because the only ghosts Cole was actually
talking to then were his grandmother and
Malcolm. All other ghosts were scary to Cole
at that time, so he wouldn't be chummy with
them as he was later with the burned woman.
But of course you're right in that Cole didn't
have to be chummy with a ghost before that
ghost talked to him, like the kitchen lady and
the gunshot boy, so a ghost certainly *could*
have told Cole about Stuttering Stanley.
V.
IrishRose
>
> Big SPOILER below...
>
> tw...@aol.com.org (Twc6) wrote:
>
> >>I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
> >>teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.
>
> >Of course this happened BEFORE he started listening to the ghosts
>
> Didn't he indicate that he's talked to his grandmother's ghost before? And he
> listens to Malcolm, of course. (He's hesitant about it, of course, but not so
> much that it seemed like a totally new experience for him.) He doesn't talk
> with most ghosts, because they're scary. The movie offers exceptions, though,
> so I assume there are others. And he would presumably have no choice but to
> listen to what they're saying sometimes, when he can't leave or react because
> of the situation.
>
> I was thinking that Cole might just have overheard the ghost yelling
> at the teacher, instead of actually being *told*, as in a
>conversation. There's a problem with this explanation, though. If a
>ghost is talking to the teacher, why would Cole assume the ghost even
>had the right guy? He knows that ghosts sometimes think the living are
>people they knew, when they aren't.
Actually this makes sense. The ghosts are hanging around (presumably)
and are aware of their circumstances and even people they don't know
(such as Malcolm and Anna's suitor -- which actually puts an interesting
twist to the ghosts see what they want to slant....) BUT I DIGRESS....
Mostly the ghosts want some resolution (apparently) and here was a
teacher flat out denying them recognition by pooh-poohing the idea that
anybody had ever been executed in the school. I wouldn't be surprised
at all that a ghost would get majorly ticked at him and Cole got in the
way, so to speak, when the ghost (who had recognized Stuttering Stanley
from his youth) started yelling at the teacher. It looked to me like
Cole was trying to block out something when he was yelling at the
teacher -- the yelling of the ghosts insisting on some recognition...?
Norman Wilner
>SPOILERish
>
>
>Andrea Beam <> wrote:
>>MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive
>> my poor memory) that they had an appointment that day,
>> for which Malcolm apologized for missing?
>
> He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet
> earlier. At the time, I had the impression that the meeting
> was supposed to be earlier that day. Now I wonder if I filled
> in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the movie
> got me to do in so many places. Does anyone remember for
> sure?
All he says is "I'm sorry I missed our appointment", which could refer to
an appointment earlier in the day, as we're certainly supposed to infer, or
an appointment that was made before Malcolm's death, and never kept.
Norm Wilner
Starweek Magazine
shar...@see.my.sig.org
On Malcolm's notepad are the words "Cole Sear referred September
1998." I think the reasonable inference is that Malcolm at least knows
of Cole before he died and perhaps had arranged or planned to set up a
meeting before he died.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>walker wrote:
>>
>>
>> > > >Anyway, there's one question I have. How does Cole know that the
>> > > >teacher has a [stuttering] problem?
>> > >
>> > > My money's on the drama(?) teacher burned in the fire. I saw it again this
>> > > weekend (rare for me for any movie) and noticed that right before his
>> > tirade
>> > > on the history teacher, that he sort of looks off to the side for a
>> > minute.
>> >
>> > I don't think that burned lady told him about the teacher's stuttering
>> > problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
>> > years ago????
>>
>> No it didn't. And the drama teacher specifically mjentioned the fire
>> to Cole which suggested that he was there -- as teacher or student
>> when the first took place and knew the dead teacher.
>
>AND you can tell from the clothes of the burned teacher's ghost....
>looked fairly recent.....60s-ish standard shirt dress and sweater.
>
>Linda
>
Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was a little boy."
Or something very close to that. How would the burned woman know of
Stanley's stuttering problem "all the way up to high school" if she
died when he was a little boy?
shar...@see.my.sig.org
This doesn't sound like something a ghost -- who doesn't know it's
dead -- would do. Ghosts supposedly go about their lives as if they're
still living. That teacher, and perhaps some children, who died in the
fire years ago when Stanley was a child are still living in the past.
I doubt that they even see a grown up Stanley.
Here's an interesting point to ponder. If a ghost told or revealed to
Cole Stanley's nickname, did it reveal the fact that Stanley
"stuttered all the way up to high school' as well? This implies the
ghost knew Stanley long after the fire that happened when he was a
little boy. Where did that ghost come from?
Norman Wilner
<37c4756a....@news.mindspring.com>...
>
> Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was
> a little boy." Or something very close to that. How would
> the burned woman know of Stanley's stuttering problem
> little boy?
Possibly the same way Malcolm knows that some cheese-dick is trying to put
the moves on his wife. Ghosts don't just exist in a vacuum; they see and
hear everything that goes on around them.
How they interpret it is another matter entirely, of course.
Norm Wilner
Starweek Magazine
Mollybloom
Stephen Thompson wrote:
>
> SPOILERish
>
> Andrea Beam <> wrote:
> >MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive my poor
> >memory) that they had an appointment that day, for which Malcolm
> >apologized for missing?
>
> He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet earlier. At the time,
> I had the impression that the meeting was supposed to be earlier that day. Now
> I wonder if I filled in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the
> movie got me to do in so many places. Does anyone remember for sure?
I think this is the definitive proof that Cole knew Malcolm was a ghost.
1. Any appointment that day could not have been with the departed doctor.
2. The evidence that the *did* have an appointment before Malcolm's
murder is found in the boy's files. They are dated before Malcolm's death.
3. It is unlikely that Cole's mother would take him to a surprise shrink
appointment, and the idea that it would also be coincidentally canceled
would be too convenient.
4. Cole displays no surprise at the mention of the appointment, or of it
being missed, as Malcolm apologizes for it.
Considering all of this, it makes more sense that Cole knew Malcolm was
a ghost unaware of his own demise. It would explain his reaction to the
apology for either missing a pre-murder or nonexistent appointment.
Molly
Mollybloom
shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote:
>
> Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was a little boy."
> Or something very close to that. How would the burned woman know of
> Stanley's stuttering problem "all the way up to high school" if she
> died when he was a little boy?
How does Malcolm know anything about Cole after he, malcolm, dies? Just
because the teacher can't see the ghosts doesn't mean the ghosts can't
see him. There is nothing indicating that they cease to be aware after
their death.
Molly
VM
> SPOILERS
>
>
> Andrea Beam <> wrote:
> >MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive my poor
> >memory) that they had an appointment that day, for which Malcolm
> >apologized for missing?
>
> He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet earlier. At the time,
> I had the impression that the meeting was supposed to be earlier that day. Now
> I wonder if I filled in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the
> movie got me to do in so many places. Does anyone remember for sure?
He does say something like "We were supposed to meet
earlier" or "We had an appointment today."
I have *such* a bad memory too! I've seen the movie 3 times,
you'd think I could remember what he says. Anyway, whatever
it is, it definitely refers to *that day*. I believe the
appointment was actually supposed to take place a year
earlier, around the time Malcolm is shot. He thinks that
it was that day because he didn't "exist" in the year
between getting shot and appearing at Cole's apartment.
Sheesh, how obsessive is it to take a tape recorder with
you to the theater? I'm thinking about doing it, just so
I can keep track of exact dialog and make quick notes to
myself.
V.
Karen Simmons
> ghost. Not until he realize that ghosts only bother him because they
> needed his help until he really gets comfortable with them and start
> talking to them.
My personal take on this is that Malcolm is the only ghost who ever
appeared to Cole *in the church*. It's pretty obvious that Cole plays
very freely in the church and seems very comfortable and not afraid of
seeing ghosts. Seeing Malcolm there at first was startling to him, but
he obviously figured that there was something different going on because
of the location and because of the way Malcolm approached him.
My husband is of the opinion that Cole possibly saw Malcolm as a bit of
a guardian angel more than a ghost.
Karen
--
----------------------------
Karen Simmons, Photographer
Atlanta, Georgia
----------------------------
Karen Simmons
> I don't think that burned lady told him about the teacher's stuttering
> problem. Didn't the fire that happened in the school occur over a hundred
> years ago????
(1) The fire happened when the teacher (Stuttering Stanley) was a
student there - so maybe about 30 years ago or so.
(2) The burned lady was a ghost. Remember when Stanley comes in and
says "who were you talking to?" and Cole replies "no one - just going
over my lines"
Karen Simmons
> > Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was
> > a little boy." Or something very close to that. How would
> > the burned woman know of Stanley's stuttering problem
> > "all the way up to high school" if she died when he was a
> > little boy?
>
> Possibly the same way Malcolm knows that some cheese-dick is trying to put
> the moves on his wife. Ghosts don't just exist in a vacuum; they see and
> hear everything that goes on around them.
Well, Cole specifically said "They only see what they want to see." So
while they don't see everything around them, they can see people they
want to see over a period of time. Like Malcolm wanting to see his
wife, so he sees everything. Maybe the teacher who died was close to
Stanley - maybe she wanted to see him succeed and so "watched" him as he
grew up. She still wouldn't have to know she was dead - just that she
was seeing a favorite student as he got older. I have teachers from Jr.
High that I still keep in touch with on an occasional basis, so it's not
unlikely.
Karen
Karen Simmons
> reality to recognize the passage of time around Stanley yet delude
> herself into believing that she was thirty (or so) years older or
> somehow still believe it was the 1960s?
Well, Malcolm sees himself as he was before death, including change of
clothes (admittedly all clothes that he was wearing near the time of his
death. He also believes that regular time has passed in his marriage
and that it is deteriorating. What's to stop the dead teacher to
believe that she is still teaching there and that an old favorite
student hasn't come to visit her once in a while. If she fades in and
out the way Malcolm does, it's not unreasonable.
Margaret Phillips
running relationship with her because of Cole's Mom's comments about the pendant
being moved. Also, he is able to bridge the gap between his mother and grandmother
during the conversation in the car. He did have a history with a ghost who was not
at all scary. So, although he is afraid of Malcolm when he runs to the church and
wary of him when he plays the "step" game at his house, he does have some previous
basis for having a more "friendly" relationship with a ghost.
P.S. I apologize if I didn't get the attributes correct. I was just trying to
pare down the post a little.
> On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:41:10 -0500, Mollybloom <molly...@erols.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Cole clearly was afraid of Malcolm, and it's also pretty clear that he
> >has more violent reactions to some ghosts than others.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
><37c4756a....@news.mindspring.com>...
>>
>> Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was
>> a little boy." Or something very close to that. How would
>> the burned woman know of Stanley's stuttering problem
>> "all the way up to high school" if she died when he was a
>> little boy?
>
>Possibly the same way Malcolm knows that some cheese-dick is trying to put
>the moves on his wife. Ghosts don't just exist in a vacuum; they see and
>hear everything that goes on around them.
>
I think the problem of how a ghost perceives the world around it is
not at all clearly defines in the movie. Malcolm seems almost totally
grounded in reality, living his normal life, but Cara, the woman in
the houserob, and the boy with the head wound, all seem to be living
out the last moments of their respective lives. What about the poor,
pathetic ghosts hanging (pun intended) around the school for the past
two hundred years? Their really look dead.
So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in reality while the
others seem so deluded? Why isn't Malcolm replaying his last moments
over and over again? What did he do, if anything, from the time of his
death until he met Cole?
If Malcolm hadn't moved on, how would he reconcile the divergence of
his "living his normal life" agains the real world? Perhaps he would
be reduced to a small loop in of his existence, playing over and over
again the last few minutes or seconds of his life and totally
oblivious to the world around him.
Which brings us to the burned woman. Could she be aware enough of
reality to recognize the passage of time around Stanley yet delude
herself into believing that she was thirty (or so) years older or
somehow still believe it was the 1960s?
>How they interpret it is another matter entirely, of course.
>
Or how we interpret the movie. :)
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>
>
>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote:
>
>>
>> Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was a little boy."
>> Or something very close to that. How would the burned woman know of
>> Stanley's stuttering problem "all the way up to high school" if she
>> died when he was a little boy?
>
>How does Malcolm know anything about Cole after he, malcolm, dies? Just
>because the teacher can't see the ghosts doesn't mean the ghosts can't
>see him. There is nothing indicating that they cease to be aware after
>their death.
>
>Molly
My most recent response to Norman Wilner deals with this somewhat
though inconclusively. If a ghost can be aware of its true surrounding
and the changes therein, when does the geowing divergence between its
perception of living its own life collide with the reality of the
many, many changes over the years, even centuries?
I know that is unanswerable, but the point I'm trying to make is that
it is impossible to tell how Cole learned the nickname. The ghosts of
the hanged people are just as likely considering that they've been
hanging around for the past two hundred years,
Norman Wilner
<37c4a20c....@news.mindspring.com>...
>"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>
>>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
>><37c4756a....@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>
>>> a little boy." Or something very close to that. How would
>>> the burned woman know of Stanley's stuttering problem
>>> "all the way up to high school" if she died when he was a
>>> little boy?
>>
>> dick is trying to put the moves on his wife. Ghosts don't just
>> exist in a vacuum; they see and hear everything that goes
>> on around them.
>
> I think the problem of how a ghost perceives the world around
> it is not at all clearly defines in the movie. Malcolm seems
> almost totally grounded in reality, living his normal life, but
> Cara, the woman in the houserob, and the boy with the head
> wound, all seem to be living out the last moments of their
> respective lives. What about the poor, pathetic ghosts hanging
> Their really look dead.
Each individual ghost seems to respond to his or her death differently;
some of them, like Malcolm, the little poisoned girl and the ghost who
helps Cole with his makeup just before the play begins, are obviously aware
of the passage of time and capable of communicating with the living -- or
at least, those gifted members of the living who can see the dead.
Cole's discussion of his conversations with his dead grandmother would
suggest that she, at least, knows she's dead, since she heard her
daughter's question at her own gravesite. And I'd guess the hanged people
know they're dead, too, but something is keeping them from moving on.
It's possible that Cole tailors his conversations with Malcolm to prepare
him to eventually understand his own situation.
> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in reality
> while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't Malcolm replaying
> his last moments over and over again? What did he do, if
>anything, from the time of his death until he met Cole?
Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we see -- he might just
drift from one manifestation to the next, unaware of the transitions. Does
he meet Cole at his home and walk with him to the bus stop when Cole goes
out to the poisoned girl's funeral, or does he just show up on the bus? We
don't know, because we don't see anything that tells us one way or the
other. It's necessary to leave the audience in the dark for the ending to
work.
>If Malcolm hadn't moved on, how would he reconcile the
>divergence of his "living his normal life" agains the real
>world? Perhaps he would be reduced to a small loop in of
>his existence, playing over and over again the last few
>minutes or seconds of his life and totally oblivious to the
>world around him.
That's a little too "Jacob's Ladder" for me -- I think Malcolm is doing
what most of the ghosts Cole sees are doing, trying to finish something
important he left incomplete in life. For the poisoned girl, who must know
she's dead on some level, it's getting the videotape to her father and
saving her sister; for Malcolm, it's saving Cole from ending up like
Vincent. Letting go of Anna seems to be a lesser imperative, since when
Cole's around her he behaves more like a conventional ghost -- a confused
and impotent presence.
> Which brings us to the burned woman. Could she be aware
> enough of reality to recognize the passage of time around
> Stanley yet delude herself into believing that she was thirty
> (or so) years older or somehow still believe it was the 1960s?
_If_ the burned woman is the ghost who tells Cole about Stanley's history
(and I'm not sure she is, since that building seems to be full of ghosts),
sure. She might not be fully aware of the passage of time if she's in that
state of self-deception that Cole talks about -- but then again, Malcolm
is, so who's to say how a ghost's mind deals with these things?
Norm Wilner
Starweek Magazine
shar...@see.my.sig.org
But only after they have spoken to Cole. Cara, the poisoned girl,
appeared to be merely reliving the end of her life. She vomits in one
scene and in the next says "I feel better now." The same words she
speaks on the tape. Perhaps she thinks she's talking to her mother. he
burned woman is seen only after Cole realizes that ghosts need help.
We do not know how she acted before Cole, most likely, initiated the
conversation we witnessed.
>Cole's discussion of his conversations with his dead grandmother would
>suggest that she, at least, knows she's dead, since she heard her
>daughter's question at her own gravesite.
Perhaps, or perhaps she merely thinks she is carrying on a
conversation with her daughter and doesn't realize that it take place
at a gravesite.
> And I'd guess the hanged people
>know they're dead, too, but something is keeping them from moving on.
>
We have no way of knowing, of course. Perhaps there is more to their
visitation. It's just not shown to us.
>It's possible that Cole tailors his conversations with Malcolm to prepare
>him to eventually understand his own situation.
>
I'm sure of that.
>> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in reality
>> while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't Malcolm replaying
>> his last moments over and over again? What did he do, if
>>anything, from the time of his death until he met Cole?
>
>Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we see -- he might just
>drift from one manifestation to the next, unaware of the transitions.
Well, yes, but that has little to do with my questions.
> Does
>he meet Cole at his home and walk with him to the bus stop when Cole goes
>out to the poisoned girl's funeral, or does he just show up on the bus? We
>don't know, because we don't see anything that tells us one way or the
>other.
At first I thought that Malcolm just pops into existence when the bus
passes the graveyard. Cole gives a little jump at that moment, and we
see Malcolm. The audience, of course, is supposed to assume he saw a
ghost in the graveyard, but I thought it a clever diversion by the
writers. When watching for the second time, I believed I could see the
shoulder of somebody sitting next to him before Cole gives that little
jump. Prhaps Malcolm was there at that point, but then again it could
have been the result of sloppy editing.
> It's necessary to leave the audience in the dark for the ending to
>work.
That goes without saying. I realize that Shyamalan did not want to or
could not del with certain issues because doing so would blow the
ending. My point is that we cannot jude all ghosts by what we see from
Malcolm. Most ghosts may well be totally delusional, but contact with
Cole changes that.
>>If Malcolm hadn't moved on, how would he reconcile the
>>divergence of his "living his normal life" agains the real
>>world? Perhaps he would be reduced to a small loop in of
>>his existence, playing over and over again the last few
>>minutes or seconds of his life and totally oblivious to the
>>world around him.
>
>That's a little too "Jacob's Ladder" for me -- I think Malcolm is doing
>what most of the ghosts Cole sees are doing, trying to finish something
>important he left incomplete in life. For the poisoned girl, who must know
>she's dead on some level, it's getting the videotape to her father and
>saving her sister; for Malcolm, it's saving Cole from ending up like
>Vincent. Letting go of Anna seems to be a lesser imperative, since when
>Cole's around her he behaves more like a conventional ghost -- a confused
>and impotent presence.
I've always said I believed that Malcolm, at least, must know on some
level that he is dead. Even though he seems very in touch with reality
(with certain exceptions), it doesn't mean that all ghosts are.
>> Which brings us to the burned woman. Could she be aware
>> enough of reality to recognize the passage of time around
>> Stanley yet delude herself into believing that she was thirty
>> (or so) years older or somehow still believe it was the 1960s?
>
>_If_ the burned woman is the ghost who tells Cole about Stanley's history
>(and I'm not sure she is, since that building seems to be full of ghosts),
>sure. She might not be fully aware of the passage of time if she's in that
>state of self-deception that Cole talks about -- but then again, Malcolm
>is, so who's to say how a ghost's mind deals with these things?
>
Or perhaps she is aware of very little and totally divorced from
reality -- until after she talks to Cole. We just don't know and the
idea of holding Malcolm up as the model for all ghosts obviously just
isn't borne out by the movie.
Norman Wilner
<37c4b5d3....@news.mindspring.com>...
>"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
>><37c4a20c....@news.mindspring.com>...
(several fine points snipped for space)
>
>>> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in
>>> reality while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't
>>> Malcolm replaying his last moments over and over
>>> again? What did he do, if anything, from the time of
>>> his death until he met Cole?
>>
>> Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we
>> see -- he might just drift from one manifestation to the
>> next, unaware of the transitions.
>
>Well, yes, but that has little to do with my questions.
You asked what Malcolm did from the time of his death until he met Cole; he
intimates that he visited Anna a few times, but between those visits, he
may not have existed, or been aware of existing.
And I think the reason Malcolm doesn't replay the event of his death over
and over again is that he's dealt with it, in a way -- he thinks he's
survived the shooting, and has created a fiction of life that allows him to
move around in the real world. The earthly issue that keeps him hanging
around is Cole.
>> Does he meet Cole at his home and walk with him
>> to the bus stop when Cole goes out to the poisoned
>> girl's funeral, or does he just show up on the bus? We
>> don't know, because we don't see anything that tells us
>> one way or the other.
>
> At first I thought that Malcolm just pops into existence when
> the bus passes the graveyard. Cole gives a little jump at that
> moment, and we see Malcolm. The audience, of course, is
> supposed to assume he saw a ghost in the graveyard, but I
> thought it a clever diversion by the writers. When watching for
> the second time, I believed I could see the shoulder of somebody
> sitting next to him before Cole gives that little jump. Prhaps
> Malcolm was there at that point, but then again it could have
> been the result of sloppy editing.
I've yet to see the movie a second time to check on all the little
things -- but I really, really want to.
>> It's necessary to leave the audience in the dark for
>> the ending to work.
>
> That goes without saying. I realize that Shyamalan did
> not want to or could not del with certain issues because
> doing so would blow the ending. My point is that we cannot
> judge all ghosts by what we see from Malcolm. Most ghosts
> may well be totally delusional, but contact with Cole changes
> that.
In some cases, yes, but as you've pointed out, the circumstances change
with each individual ghost. I find myself wondering how Cole will deal with
a genuinely violent spirit -- like the ghost in the attic -- in the future.
Damn, this is a good movie.
Norm Wilner
Starweek Magazine
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>Norman Wilner wrote:
>
>> > Stanley said "There was a terrible fire here when I was
>> > a little boy." Or something very close to that. How would
>> > the burned woman know of Stanley's stuttering problem
>> > "all the way up to high school" if she died when he was a
>> > little boy?
>>
>> Possibly the same way Malcolm knows that some cheese-dick is trying to put
>> the moves on his wife. Ghosts don't just exist in a vacuum; they see and
>> hear everything that goes on around them.
>
>Well, Cole specifically said "They only see what they want to see." So
>while they don't see everything around them, they can see people they
>want to see over a period of time. Like Malcolm wanting to see his
>wife, so he sees everything. Maybe the teacher who died was close to
>Stanley - maybe she wanted to see him succeed and so "watched" him as he
>grew up. She still wouldn't have to know she was dead - just that she
>was seeing a favorite student as he got older. I have teachers from Jr.
>High that I still keep in touch with on an occasional basis, so it's not
>unlikely.
>
>Karen
What I've been driving at in an admittedly oblique manner is that we
can only speculate on possibilities. Did the burned woman tell Cole of
Stanley's nickname? We cannot know the answer because there is no way
of knowing.
Is she even aware of his existence or stuck in some thirty year old
loop until Cole speaks to her? I threw out these questions since there
is more than one possible answer and no way of knowing which is
correct. Saying that because Malcolm seems so grounded in reality in
many respects does not prove that other ghosts are. In fact the other
ghosts we see seem to be even more delusional than malcolm.
Volfie
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
>
>My personal take on this is that Malcolm is the only ghost who ever
>appeared to Cole *in the church*.
Ohhhh, I don't know -- remember that one of Cole's soldiers spoke Latin. Since
Cole probably had never been to Rome the next best bet is that he ran into a
ghostly priest somewhere along the way and the best chance of that would have
been in a church.
Did anyone notice that Cole had very specific info about one of his toy
soldiers? Regiment, battalion, rank, area of service, etc. -- well beyond what
a child could make up. Heck, it was well beyond what *I* could make up. It
made me believe that somewhere he had run into a soldier ghost, too.
Volfie -> may have to see this movie a third time
MasonBarge
spoilers
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.>Ohhhh, I don't know -- remember that one of Cole's soldiers spoke Latin.
>Since
>Cole probably had never been to Rome the next best bet is that he ran into a
>ghostly priest somewhere along the way and the best chance of that would have
>been in a church.
>
Maybe he's Catholic -- in fact, most likely he's Catholic in light of the
elaborate church, his attendance at St Anthony's school. Not necessarily, but
possibly. He could easily have heard a Latin psalm or anthem. But you could
be right, too.
It could be that he sees ghosts at church but they're all nice ones.
>Did anyone notice that Cole had very specific info about one of his toy
>soldiers? Regiment, battalion, rank, area of service, etc. -- well beyond
>what
>a child could make up. Heck, it was well beyond what *I* could make up. It
>made me believe that somewhere he had run into a soldier ghost, too.
>
Yeah probably. Did anyone notice that the first icon he placed between himself
and Crowe was Robert E. Lee? I wish he had spoken to him! But yes, he seemed
to have a lot of toy soldiers.
- Mason Barge
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
MasonBarge
>and the changes therein, when does the geowing divergence between its
>perception of living its own life collide with the reality of the
>many, many changes over the years, even centuries?
A ghost only sees what it wants to see.
MasonBarge
>suggest that she, at least, knows she's dead,
>know they're dead, too,
>For the poisoned girl, who must know
>she's dead on some level,
Rule one: they don't know they're dead.
The little girl knows her mother is poisoning her and wants to tell her dad.
The hanged people know they are hanging. The grandmother can hear Cole's mom.
These are all consistent with the ground rules. I think you have to accept
that they don't know they're dead, it's a given and keeps the drama within
tight limits.
>
>It's possible that Cole tailors his conversations with Malcolm to prepare
>him to eventually understand his own situation.
IMHO this is one of the great dimensions of the relationship. At some point,
at least, Cole realizes Malcolm is a ghost and begins to prepare Malcolm for
the fact that he's dead. The child is father to the man and the patient is
therapist to the doctor.
MasonBarge
>and over again is that he's dealt with it, in a way -
Or a little more accurately IMHO, his death is not the event that traumatized
him enough to hang around. It's not his unfinished business. He accepts his
death well enough to pass on, but can't accept that he failed as a
psychologist so badly.
MasonBarge
>was? Perhaps his sense isn't always 100%, he'll see them, but not realize
>he's seeing them.
Yes, I think it's pretty clear he doesn't recognize them "automatically" and
this leans credence to the hanging question: At what point does he realize
Crowe is dead?
CY
>
> Stephen Thompson wrote in message <37cb54bc...@news.cableaz.com>...
> >SPOILERish
> >
> >
> >>MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply (forgive
> >> my poor memory) that they had an appointment that day,
> >> for which Malcolm apologized for missing?
> >
> > He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet
> > earlier. At the time, I had the impression that the meeting
> > was supposed to be earlier that day. Now I wonder if I filled
> > in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the movie
> > got me to do in so many places. Does anyone remember for
> > sure?
>
> an appointment earlier in the day, as we're certainly supposed to infer, or
> an appointment that was made before Malcolm's death, and never kept.
>
> Norm Wilner
> Starweek Magazine
I remember the movie has "a year later" after he got shot. I don't
think people apologize like that if they miss the appointment one year
ago instead of 2 hours ago. Anyway I just think the idea is gimmicky
-so you notice that your wife always pay for the bill herself and don't
notice she hasn't talk to you in a year? So you can go in your house
day in and day out except you can enter the basement? They could have
done it without the ending and totally gamble on Haley Joel Osment's
acting talent, we all know what he is capable of.
CY
The Story of Brandon
Yes, yes, yes. Malcolm only sees what he wants to see. I understand that
you don't buy it, but it really is that simple.
>They could have
>done it without the ending and totally gamble on Haley Joel Osment's
>acting talent, we all know what he is capable of.
Not as much fun.
--
-Brandon Blatcher
Mollybloom
Norman Wilner wrote:
>
> shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
> <37c4b5d3....@news.mindspring.com>...
> >"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>
> >>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
> >><37c4a20c....@news.mindspring.com>...
> (several fine points snipped for space)
> >
> >>> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in
> >>> reality while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't
> >>> Malcolm replaying his last moments over and over
> >>> again? What did he do, if anything, from the time of
> >>> his death until he met Cole?
> >>
> >> Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we
> >> see -- he might just drift from one manifestation to the
> >> next, unaware of the transitions.
> >
> >Well, yes, but that has little to do with my questions.
>
> You asked what Malcolm did from the time of his death until he met Cole; he
> intimates that he visited Anna a few times, but between those visits, he
> may not have existed, or been aware of existing.
Which is why he mentions the missed appointement as though it had been
very recent, perhaps earlier that day .
Molly
Mollybloom
Volfie wrote:
>
> Karen writes:
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> '
> >
> >My personal take on this is that Malcolm is the only ghost who ever
> >appeared to Cole *in the church*.
>
> Ohhhh, I don't know -- remember that one of Cole's soldiers spoke Latin. Since
> Cole probably had never been to Rome the next best bet is that he ran into a
> ghostly priest somewhere along the way and the best chance of that would have
> been in a church.
>
> Did anyone notice that Cole had very specific info about one of his toy
> soldiers? Regiment, battalion, rank, area of service, etc. -- well beyond what
> a child could make up. Heck, it was well beyond what *I* could make up. It
> made me believe that somewhere he had run into a soldier ghost, too.
It's also possible a soldier spoke Latin. It was the lingua franca of
most of Europe for centuries.
Molly
Toan Hoang
That's a good point, that's why I don't think Cole can tell the
difference between a ghost or a person. Cole is just like the
audience. We can tell some of them are ghost because of how they
look, but if they look like a person, it's hard to tell unless you see
them do some strange thing like walking through walls. He's no
different than us, the only difference is that he can see ghosts. So,
how can we tell that some are ghosts but not Malcolm? Because other
look like a ghost while Malcolm doesn't, and that's how Cole determine
who is a ghost.
- Toan -
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
><37c4b5d3....@news.mindspring.com>...
>>"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>
>>>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
>>><37c4a20c....@news.mindspring.com>...
>(several fine points snipped for space)
>>
>>>> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in
>>>> reality while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't
>>>> Malcolm replaying his last moments over and over
>>>> again? What did he do, if anything, from the time of
>>>> his death until he met Cole?
>>>
>>> Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we
>>> see -- he might just drift from one manifestation to the
>>> next, unaware of the transitions.
>>
>>Well, yes, but that has little to do with my questions.
>
>You asked what Malcolm did from the time of his death until he met Cole; he
>intimates that he visited Anna a few times, but between those visits, he
>may not have existed, or been aware of existing.
>
My questions are rhetorical in the sense I'm asking the unanswearable.
Simply put, Malcolm's activities during the year before the movie
starts cannot be told without destroying the surprise ending. The
audience is led to believe that Malcolm spent the year in recovery
from his wounds and perhaps, as we learn later, dealing with issues
resulting from his failure with Vincent.
Shyamalan doesn't want the audience to know which leads to much
speculation. I think those who find that a major fault in the movie
are just as guilty in over-analyzing the film as those of us who are
having fun trying to explain evry little thing in the movie.
>And I think the reason Malcolm doesn't replay the event of his death over
>and over again is that he's dealt with it, in a way -- he thinks he's
>survived the shooting, and has created a fiction of life that allows him to
>move around in the real world. The earthly issue that keeps him hanging
>around is Cole.
Perhaps it's the failure with Vincent and Anna. I don't think the
death is what keep any of the ghosts hanging around even though they
replay it over and over -- as far as we can tell. There's a direct
link between Malcolm's professional failure and Vincent's subsequent
murder of Malcolm and his own suicide. That's a pretty heavy load.
The reason why Malcolm, unlike the others is not shown replaying his
death is simply because it gives away the ending. So we, or those of
us hooked on analyzing the movie, are put in the position of trying to
explain such issues as why does Malcolm seem so different from the
other ghosts we see. My own thought is that in some ways he actually
isn't. He obviously is delusional about many things. But Cole makes a
great impact on Malcolm's "life," and perhaps it's Cole that actually
makes thing "click: for Malcolm's ghost resulting in Malcolm one day
appearing on a bench across the street from Cole's house.
>>> Does he meet Cole at his home and walk with him
>>> to the bus stop when Cole goes out to the poisoned
>>> girl's funeral, or does he just show up on the bus? We
>>> don't know, because we don't see anything that tells us
>>> one way or the other.
>>
>> At first I thought that Malcolm just pops into existence when
>> the bus passes the graveyard. Cole gives a little jump at that
>> moment, and we see Malcolm. The audience, of course, is
>> supposed to assume he saw a ghost in the graveyard, but I
>> thought it a clever diversion by the writers. When watching for
>> the second time, I believed I could see the shoulder of somebody
>> sitting next to him before Cole gives that little jump. Prhaps
>> Malcolm was there at that point, but then again it could have
>> been the result of sloppy editing.
>
>
>I've yet to see the movie a second time to check on all the little
>things -- but I really, really want to.
>
You should. It'll be interesting to see how your perceptions of the
film changes after a second view.
>>> It's necessary to leave the audience in the dark for
>>> the ending to work.
>>
>> That goes without saying. I realize that Shyamalan did
>> not want to or could not del with certain issues because
>> doing so would blow the ending. My point is that we cannot
>> judge all ghosts by what we see from Malcolm. Most ghosts
>> may well be totally delusional, but contact with Cole changes
>> that.
>
>In some cases, yes, but as you've pointed out, the circumstances change
>with each individual ghost. I find myself wondering how Cole will deal with
>a genuinely violent spirit -- like the ghost in the attic -- in the future.
>
Perhaps there are none in Cole's world.
>Damn, this is a good movie.
>
Agreed.
Volfie
>most of Europe for centuries.
>
>
>Molly
>
True, but being in the US, without centuries old soldiers around, it's hard to
picture him tripping over a Roman Centurian ghost somewhere. Priests are about
the only ones left who speak Latin these days.
Volfie -> and, yes, I suppose the ghosts could travel but if you follow that
line of logic you have to assume they'd travel to the closest person to them --
an ocean away seems awfully far. Just MHO, of course.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>>And I think the reason Malcolm doesn't replay the event of his death over
>>and over again is that he's dealt with it, in a way -
>
>Or a little more accurately IMHO, his death is not the event that traumatized
>him enough to hang around. It's not his unfinished business. He accepts his
>death well enough to pass on, but can't accept that he failed as a
>psychologist so badly.
>
An interesting observation, but I think that true of all ghosts. It's
not the death so much, but the incidents that lead up to the death or
the issues that go unresolved because of the death. Replaying a death
scene may be nothing more than writing "The End" to that person's
life.
Volfie
>
>>>was? Perhaps his sense isn't always 100%, he'll see them, but not realize
>>>he's seeing them.
Picture this: You are a kid. The only other person living in your house is
your mother. You get up one night and see a woman in the kitchen wearing a
bathrobe and going through the cupboards. Would you say:
A. "Is that you, Mr. Whipple?"
B. "Make me an omelet while you're at it."
C. "Mom?"
Volfie -> what is it with this movie that people aren't getting?? argh!
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>
>
>Norman Wilner wrote:
>>
>> shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
>> <37c4b5d3....@news.mindspring.com>...
>> >"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>>
>> >>shar...@see.my.sig.org wrote in message
>> >><37c4a20c....@news.mindspring.com>...
>> (several fine points snipped for space)
>> >
>> >>> So what makes Malcolm seemingly so grounded in
>> >>> reality while the others seem so deluded? Why isn't
>> >>> Malcolm replaying his last moments over and over
>> >>> again? What did he do, if anything, from the time of
>> >>> his death until he met Cole?
>> >>
>> >> Malcolm may not have any existence beyond what we
>> >> see -- he might just drift from one manifestation to the
>> >> next, unaware of the transitions.
>> >
>> >Well, yes, but that has little to do with my questions.
>>
>> You asked what Malcolm did from the time of his death until he met Cole; he
>> intimates that he visited Anna a few times, but between those visits, he
>> may not have existed, or been aware of existing.
>
>Which is why he mentions the missed appointement as though it had been
>very recent, perhaps earlier that day .
>
>Molly
Perhaps or perhaps he is delusional about having an appointment even
if he did know about Cole before his death.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>> If a ghost can be aware of its true surrounding
>>and the changes therein, when does the geowing divergence between its
>>perception of living its own life collide with the reality of the
>>many, many changes over the years, even centuries?
>
>A ghost only sees what it wants to see.
>
But when there is nothing there to meet the ghost's expectations of
reality, it must then exist in a total fantasy world. Because Malcolm,
who has been dead for about one year, seems to seee world in a very
realistic manner, does not mean that a ghost of a person dead thirty
or a hundred years are that tuned into the events going on around
them.
Just because Malcolm knows about "cheese-dick' does not mean that a
teacher would recognize Stanley after the passage of thirty years.
Even if she does, she might see him a little boy and would unlikely
know that he "stuttered all the way through high school."
shar...@see.my.sig.org
The Romans discovered America!!!
Or
a frustrated H.S. student studying Latin commits suicide just before
the final exam and now his ghost atones for it doomed to speak Latin
as long as it walks the earth.
shar...@see.my.sig.org
>Try decaffeinated.
>
>Picture this: You're a kid who sees ghosts, often at night. The only
>other person _living_ in your house is your mother, but there's lots of
>dead people wandering about, so much that you've built a small sanctuary
>in your bedroom. You get up one night, it's cold, which you know as an
>indicator of presence of ghosts, and you see a woman in the kitchen. Maybe
>your "sense" kicks in and you ignore it because you're expecting to see
>Mom, and this particular ghost has never crossed your path before.
>
>The scene portrays very well the fact that while Cole is experienced beyond
>his years, he's still just a child, and can sometimes let his defenses
>down. I'd guess he sensed the ghost was a ghost, didn't want to accept
>that (ignored the "feeling") and would rather that it was his mother,
>someone who could comfort him.
>
>In other words, he saw what he wanted to see. A nice twist on that same
>theme for the ghosts in the movie.
>
>--
>Joe Mac
I think you nailed it. At first I did think the scene a bit odd
because the boy did know a ghost was about the house. But instead of
running for his sanctuary, as you'd expect, he went towards the
kitchen. He must had thought (or hoped) his mother was up.
I'm still convinced Cole sees ghosts as they appeared at the time of
death. There is ample evidence that this is the case. The ghost may be
deluded into thinking it is changing clothes, but Cole isn't.
MasonBarge
>difference between a ghost or a person.
Right, it's pretty clear he can't.
>So,
>how can we tell that some are ghosts but not Malcolm? Because other
>look like a ghost while Malcolm doesn't, and that's how Cole determine
>who is a ghost.
There is one thing. I saw the movie again and Cole definitely gets a look at
Crowe's back, with just his shirt on, about halfway between the time they meet
and the time Crowe realizes he's dead.
MasonBarge
>>>>>who it
>>>>>was? Perhaps his sense isn't always 100%, he'll see them, but not
>>>>>realize he's seeing them.
Guys, the whole point of this is to indicate whether or not Cole immediately
recognizes that a ghost is a ghost, or whether on the other hand ghosts look
just like living people except for other clues (like large parts of their body
missing, roaming around his bedroom in the middle of the night acting weird,
etc.) The purpose being to determine if he knows Crowe is a ghost as soon as
he sees him, since Crowe doesn't have any of these signs.
Norman Wilner
>Norman Wilner wrote:
>>
>> Stephen Thompson wrote in message
<37cb54bc...@news.cableaz.com>...
>> >SPOILERish
>> >
>> >
>> >Andrea Beam <> wrote:
>> >>MasonBarge <mason...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In the church, didn't Malcolm say, or at least imply
>> >> (forgive my poor memory) that they had an
>> >> appointment that day, for which Malcolm apologized
>> >> for missing?
>> >
>> > He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet
>> > earlier. At the time, I had the impression that the meeting
>> > was supposed to be earlier that day. Now I wonder if I filled
>> > in the "that day" part with my own assumptions, like the
>> > movie got me to do in so many places. Does anyone
>> > remember for sure?
>>
>> All he says is "I'm sorry I missed our appointment", which
>> could refer to an appointment earlier in the day, as we're
>> certainly supposed to infer, or an appointment that was made
>> before Malcolm's death, and never kept.
>
> I don't think people apologize like that if they miss the appointment
> one year ago instead of 2 hours ago. Anyway I just think the idea
> herself and don't notice she hasn't talk to you in a year? So you
> can go in your house day in and day out except you can enter
> totally gamble on Haley Joel Osment's acting talent, we all know
> what he is capable of.
Well, we know _now_, anyway. But the ending isn't just a gimmick -- it's a
way of recontextualizing the story and making it much more moving and
profound. It puts everything into a new perspective, and it does so without
cheating the audience. The story Malcolm tells Cole about his wife becoming
distant from him is the way he perceives his situation; he doesn't realize
she's no longer speaking to him because he's not there to speak to.
The super on the screen says "The Next Fall". And Malcolm may not know it's
been a year since the original appointment -- there's plenty of evidence to
suggest that the dead may not perceive the passage time as the living do.
Norm Wilner
Starweek Magazine
Paul Richardson
> elaborate church, his attendance at St Anthony's school. Not necessarily,
but
> possibly. He could easily have heard a Latin psalm or anthem.
There hasn't been much Latin in Catholicism since Vatican 2 (1969?). I was
brought up Catholic post-V2, and I can't speak a lick of the language.
Tuttle
>
> SPOILERS
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> >
> >has been shot in the side. The audience sees Malcolm as Malcolm sees
> >himself. He imagines he changes clothes so he and we see him wearing,
> >at various times, a long coat, a suit coat, a vest, or a sweatshirt.
>
> No, this can't be right. We see all the ghosts as they appeared at the time of
> death or something. Willis has apparently found a tailor who will sell to the
> public without regard to race, religion, or temporal sphere.
>
> >
> >Another thing about ghosts according to Cole is that he knows when
> >they are near because he has a sensation of falling even though he
> >isn't.
>
> This is an extremely good point. The boy senses when ghosts are around by
> physical feelings. Score one for the "he knew Crow was a ghost" team.
but what about Servo?
Tuttle
>
> Big SPOILER below...
>
> tw...@aol.com.org (Twc6) wrote:
>
> >>I think some other unidentified ghost (maybe a dead classmate of the
> >>teacher?) told him about the teacher's stuttering problem.
>
> >Of course this happened BEFORE he started listening to the ghosts
Remember he saw ghosts as a baby. a few months old. (see pictures)
MasonBarge
>brought up Catholic post-V2, and I can't speak a lick of the language.
>
Certainly true, but I knew the meaning of the "de profundis" quote and I don't
speak Latin. And when I was a kid I sang some Latin masses and I'm not
Catholic, for that matter.
Stephen Thompson
"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote:
>Stephen Thompson wrote...
>>He definitely mentioned that they were supposed to meet earlier. At the
>>time, I had the impression that the meeting was supposed to be earlier
>>that day. Now I wonder if I filled in the "that day" part with my own
>>assumptions, like the movie got me to do in so many places. Does anyone
>>remember for sure?
>All he says is "I'm sorry I missed our appointment", which could refer to
>an appointment earlier in the day, as we're certainly supposed to infer, or
>an appointment that was made before Malcolm's death, and never kept.
It isn't all that important, but after seeing the movie again, my first
impression was correct. Malcolm definitely says that they were supposed to
meet "today", and then apologizes for missing the appointment.
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1999 so far... 1. Rushmore 2. Go 3. The Sixth Sense 4. Mystery Men 5. Austin
Powers II 6. Eyes Wide Shut 7. The Matrix 8. Phantom Menace 9. Blair Witch
Project 10. South Park 11. Summer of Sam 12. 8MM 13. Bowfinger 14. Payback 15.
Deep Blue Sea 16. The Mummy 17. Tarzan 18. Mod Squad 19. Thomas Crown Affair
20. General's Daughter 21. True Crime 22. Entrapment 23. The Rage: Carrie 2
