Matrix Reloaded Ending Discussion (Spoilers, obviously)
Johnny Newsreader
untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is going
to reveal.
Here's my take on the ending.
(Obviously, DO NOT read ahead if you haven't seen the movie!!!)
While the first two-thirds of Matrix: Reloaded occasionally seems like an
excuse to stage some really nifty fight scenes, the final third is a pretty
damned impressive and convoluted mind trip which you have to pay very close
attention to. The entire movie is an examination of the concept of choice
and free will, and echoes age-old philosophical arguments about
predestination and the omniscence of a supreme being. To overly and crudely
simplify the past twenty thousand years of debate on the topic, the argument
is as follows: if God knows what we're going to do before we do it, then we
can't have free will, because the non-chosen choice would and could never
have been made, because the outcome is already assured. Both the Oracle and
the Architect (the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)
make Neo question whether his actions are truly his own, especially in the
film's decisive moment, where Neo is presented with a choice that the
previous Neo's didn't have, as only this Neo (which I guess I'll call
"Keaneo" to keep him straight, hehe) had fallen in love. Or so the
Architect says.
So, what does this film teach us that the previous film did not? Well, it's
certainly a lot later than 2199, as the first film implied. In fact, it's
likely thousands of years into the future. The reason that Morpheus and co.
believe it is 2199 is because they did not know this is the sixth version of
the Matrix, and the sixth version of Zion. Since each new Zion is made out
of people newly plucked from the Matrix, there is no way of passing on
details of previous Zion destructions to others. (Of course, the movie's
final moments also call into question whether Zion exists in the "real
world" at all, as well, but more on that later.)
The first Matrix that was designed was perfect, but no one was able to
believe it was real, and all thought it must be some kind of dream they
should be able to wake from. The Matrix was then tweaked and reloaded (the
true meaning of the title; the ammunition double entendre carries over to
"revolutions" as well) with a smaller percentage of people realizing that it
must be a "dream". Each time, the people who get it, who realize it's not
quite right, find a way to leave the Matrix, with the help of the Oracle,
and found Zion. Why would the Oracle do this? Because the Matrix can't be
allowed to be damaged with an unstable element. The individuals who "get
it" need to be removed. It's a bug in the program, which the Architect is
continually trying to fix with each new Matrix version. And each new reload
eventually produces a Zion, and a Neo, and so the cycle repeats.
The choice that Neo is given is essentially this:
1) The door to his right (the one Neo doesn't select) will reload the
Matrix, as has happened five times before. The inhabitants will stay alive
for the new version; their minds will just be reset. Hopefully by now, the
Architect will have tweaked the Matrix enough to fix the bug and, if not,
there will be a seventh Neo, a seventh Zion, etc. In this scenario, Trinity
will die (since she'll be killed in the Matrix), her body liquified and fed
intravenously to infants, etc.
2) The door to his left (the one he chooses) does NOT reload the Matrix,
letting the bug continue. Trinity gets to live (for now), but the bug will
eventually destroy the Matrix, and everyone connected to the Matrix will
die. The machines will have to formulate alternatives to the bioelectricity
that the humans provide, as all of humanity will be dead.
In other words, door #1 reloads the matrix, the unstable element (i.e. all
the people) in Zion is wiped out, but all the individuals get to go on
living (in their little dream worlds). Door #2 doesn't reload the matrix,
but the flaw will eventually bring down the Matrix itself, and everyone will
die who is connected to it.
The reason that Keaneo has this choice (whereas the previous Neos did not)
is because the love of Trinity is a new factor. The past Neos who got to
this point with the Architect really had only one "choice", i.e., reload the
Matrix. There was no alternative after learning the truth about what Zion
was -- a place where the Oracle got all the troublemakers who could damage
and upset the balance of the Matrix to leave to. Because they were the ones
who felt like they needed to make a choice that wasn't provided to them,
they were encouraged to make the "choice" to leave the Matrix, which let
them feel like they'd accomplished something. But since the Oracle's true
motivations were to essentially quarantine the bug/flaw, it's a pretty
hollow victory for the Zionians. Either way, the previous Neos reloaded the
Matrix, and everyone goes on living in blissful ignorance, since the
alternative (letting the Matrix collapse, killing everyone) is far worse.
Neo's love for Trinity, according to the Architect, has doomed the Matrix's
survival, as now, since the Matrix hasn't been rebooted, the unstable
element will end up killing everyone, including the Zionians.
Ahhh... but why would the Zionites be obliterated just because they left the
Matrix? Well, that depends on your point of view. There are two possible
ways, as I see it, of interpretting the ending:
1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
least with regards to machines.)
2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established by
the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life didn't
feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
never actually seen the "real" world.
I'm not sure which scenario Matrix: Revolutions will reflect. Choice #1 is
a more metaphysical, supernatural idea, whereas Choice #2 is more of a
"practical", computer-based idea. Either has it's own strengths and
weaknesses. Naturally, there are all sorts of other choices I haven't
covered, or some combination of the two, etc., but I think most of the clues
we've been given point to one of those, especially the bizarre penultimate
moment of the film where Keaneo's powers work OUTSIDE the Matrix (or, if
choice two is correct, a DIFFERENT part of the matrix, or a different
matrix.)
We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it happened,
or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit of
evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who "miraculously
survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person we
see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program to
move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
:)
Anyone care to add to these observations, or refute them?
John Addis
symphy at hotmail dot com
Jeff Adams
>
creating the current matrix? Two, there is also one other possibility I can
think of to explain the end of the film. At the end Neo says "something is
different". What if Zion does exist in the real world, but at the end of
the film they didn't really leave the Matrix and they were tricked somehow.
Jeff
jmnugent
that is to be absorbed by this new movie.
Its a very "meaty" movie---alot to bend your mind around.
Couple comments.....
As for the theory's that Zion (the supposed "real world") is in fact just
another level of the Matrix or its own seperate Matrix.
I just dont buy it. I cant say why...it just doesnt feel write. It seems
they put alot of effort into the first movie making us understand the
difference between
the real world and the dream world.
The person who survived the Zion attack, and theory's that its Agent Smith
and he has somehow figured out how to take over a real persons body.
Interesting idea,...but once again it just doesnt feel write to me. On one
hand--perhaps Smith figures he has a better chance of getting revenge on Neo
in the real world
where Neo's powers are non-existent (well--up until the end of the movie
where we find out otherwise.)
But is Smith the very first program to figure out how to take over someones
body and jump over to the "real" world (assuming it is the real world)
Personally...I'd be more easily convinced that Smith's motivations are that
he wants to be more human and thats why he does it.
Before I saw the movie--I read somewhere that the person on the table at the
end was Cypher....but I'm guessing thats wrong since I dont see his actor
name in the credits.
And thats just a small tidbit off all the things to discuss in this
movie....damn--what a great flick.....
Just more proof of my belief-----there are those who like The Matrix...and
those who dont understand it.
jmnugent
"Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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KalElFan
news:Aqexa.46127$VP.10...@twister.neo.rr.com...
[Johnny Newsreader wrote]:
This would be part of my hoped-for approach (good summary by Johnny
before that by the way). Just as a matter of principle, I think it'll come to
be viewed as a huge mistake if we learn Zion was another Matrix, or a
Matrix within a Matrix, and another layer of "reality" lies on top, which
we in turn can't trust. The whole story becomes very subject to ridicule
if this is the path they go down, because it just wasn't conceived that
way in the first movie.
Another factor not mentioned here, but it may have been mentioned
elsewhere (I'd be very surprised if it hasn't), is that Anthony Zerbe's
character, and the council he's leading, look conspicuously like the
people who would have been chosen to start this Matrix Round 6.
Maybe Zerbe's character was even the Last One effectively forced
to choose the door to his right. He spoke of choice and "Why" in
a way one might expect from someone who'd had the last 40 years
(or whatever) to contemplate the situation and issues surrounding
his Round 5 meeting with the Architect.
Expanding on this further, it's possible Zerbe's character and the
current council aren't about to let Neo's love for Trinity allow the
destruction of all humans in the real world. Indeed, they may feel
obligated, morally, to ensure that doesn't happen. And so what
we may have been seeing here is a Zion Matrix that the council
colluded with the machines to set up as a failsafe, in case Neo
became too powerful and ultimately chose the door to his left. In
this scenario, Agent Smith may have been virtually invited into
the failsafe Zion Matrix.
There's an additional twist that might emerge, based on that
discussion with Zerbe's character, which is that the Matrix might
have initially been consensual for all who decided to enter it. It
may have been an escape from the Awful Future that, perhaps,
mankind had foisted upon itself through war or whatever.
Presumably we get a victory by Neo over Smith, and then Zerbe's
character and the current council, and as part of this they gain control
over the machines. But Neo, Trinity & Co., and Zion, might then be
faced with offering the red/blue pill choice on a managed, species-wide
scale, depending how awful things are on the surface or how many
pod people :-) can be absorbed or reintegrated into reality. A twist
ending where Neo and Trinity themselves choose The Matrix is also
possible, but they would have to contrive, for example to have Trinity
very critically injured in the battle of real-world Zion. The possibility
of reintegration some years in the future might be held out as part of
this.
All the above may be completely off the mark, but I think it would be
close to the best resolution -- best in the sense of how The Matrix
Trilogy would come to be viewed when people look back on it
decades from now. I think it's important that it remain true to the
premise and information we were given in the first movie, and not
stray from that in a fundamental way. The Sixth Matrix business,
and the Failsafe Zion Matrix if that's what came online during
Reloaded, would not be a fundamental change in my view. And
the three movies would make for a complete, self-contained story
that's complex but in the end coherent. Worthy of Pi-6 placement
in the Pi Continuum. :-)
As for my opinion of Reloaded, I think it was as good as I could
have reasonably expected half a sequel to be. If we get something
along the lines I've speculated on above in November, then I think
the sequels will have been very worthy of the originals.
--
Anthony Michael Walsh
KalE...@scifipi.com
Check out http://www.moviescorecard.com
Lord Nerd on High
is just another layer of the Matrix. I'd certainly hope that the third movie
doesn't involve Neo actually having supernatural powers in a real world. I'd
find that kind of trite and too easy of a way to write the story. It's much
more interesting to think of this as some kind of convoluted study in
consciousness. It was a nice touch that the Architect resembles Freud and it
speaks to me that the final revelation of the movie is going to be a wacked out
"Jacobs Ladder" scenerio or Plato's Cave twist on consciousness. I don't have
the time to really work it out at the moment but it would be interesting to try
and translate the Matrix in Freudian terms and see what comes of it.
When I look at the "something's changed" comment by Neo at the end of the movie
it seems to me that when Neo accepts the alternate path that his predecesors
did not, doing so out of a basis of emotion as the Architect explains, that
basis for choice kind of "woke" Neo up further. All of the emotional
underpinnings of human consciousness are pretty well tricked by the Matrix and
funneled very efficiently into reassurance for the 99.9% and the rest gets
dumped into the Zion layer of the Matrix. The fatal bug that the Architect
anticipates is that Neo will actually wake up out of the Matrix, or at the very
least become lucid in the Zion layer. The events at the end seem to make this
the case, he realizes at the last minute that he is still in a matrix and acts
upon it, then he collapses and goes into coma because his mind is reeling at
the implication.
Another interesting avenue is that since the machines are just virtial
constructs in the "conscious" Zion layer of the matrix one has to ask again,
what is the Matrix? Is it really about machines and AI enslaving the human
race so that they can be batteries? Is all of that just a big smokescreen for
the Zion layer?
Hehe, wouldn't it be great if the Revolutions ends with Neo waking up to be
greeted by Arnold as the Terminator? It could be like the end of "Newhart"
where Bob wakes up in the "Bob Newhart Show".
==
remove the crap to email
pdu...@op.net
"Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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>
> 1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
> least with regards to machines.)
>
> 2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established
by
> the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life
didn't
> feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
> haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
> never actually seen the "real" world.
>
> We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
> the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
> the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
> beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it
happened,
> or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit
of
> evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
> tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who
"miraculously
> survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person
we
> see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
> fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
> anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
> second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
> bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program
to
> move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
> flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
I think Smith is in a REAL real world, and so is Zion. The contrast is
between the
red blood of real humanity and the green "lifeblood" of the AI in the
matrix,
made explicit in the scene where the other ship is hit and blood drips down
the computer scene atop the green matrix flow.
The AIs have control and understanding of human physiology and brain
chemistry.
The architect can predict, like a chess program, the vast majority of Neon's
responses,
by his understanding of the deterministic nature of brain chemistry, and he
can
display them on the monitors.
So its not a big stretch for the neo-infected smith who has some measure of
independence,
and like any agent has the ability to take over avatars in the matrix, to
take over a
matrix hacker and come back on the uplink, as a brain chemistry virus.
Likewise, Neo is a bioelectric battery, like any human. But he's also the
"one", and
was linked up with Smith in his death, and thus he can generate an EMP
through
the physical implants still in him which is enough to take the sentinels
out.
I think any MetaMatrix would be a cop-out answer, though I can guess the
directors
like the possibility as a misdirection.
Paul D.
Johnny Newsreader
Reloaded is a construct, but the Zion at the beginning of Reloaded was the
real one.
This is getting very Existenz. Anyone see that one :) ?
John
"Jeff Adams" <e...@mail.com> wrote in message
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W. Long
Don't forget, even the 'real world' inhabitants are like Borgs in a way. It
seems the ability to affect all systems, construct or real, would be a strong
possiblity.
Peace!
-----------------------------
- for film & music talk, art, mp3's,
dj mixes, discography, MIDI prod
& stuff -
visit http://www.wyndelllong.com/
Peter Lee
a construct of the matrix. I didn't, however, have a good grasp of the
whole choice that occured in the central room with the architecht, but I
think your summary is spot on.
I would like to bring up some little pieces that I think help support the
idea zion as a separate matrix.
1) Oracle knows Keano's dreams.
Although she doesn't say it outright, it is certainly implied that Oracle
knows that Neo has seen Trinity's death in his dreams. Short of some sort
of psychic computer system, there really isn't a way for a computer program
running in some sort of matrix to see a person's dream who is not connected.
Unless of course she can read memories of some sort and as a result can see
what has already been thought.
2) The spoon!
Right before departing on the final mission aboard the Neb, Neo gets a
little gift of a beatten up spoon. This is an obvious shout out to the
"there is no spoon" line where Neo starts to understand that objects in the
matrix are just code and can be manipulated at will. I predict that we
will see some spoon bending in Revolutions.
Finally as for speculating about the idea of what the fatal flaw is, has
anyone considered that it is Smith? In the original Matrix, Smith has shown
himself to be a little rouge (his scene sans ear piece crushing Fishburn's
skull) during which he expressed a desire to have himself terminated. After
his blow-up-battle with neo, Smith died and got to see the whole picture
because Neo can see the whole picture. In Reload, Smith is no longer
working with the other agents and can no co-opt them for his own purposes.
This is going to be a threat to the archatect. Smith sees that the only way
to commit suicide is to destroy the entire cycle of rebirth that is the
relationship with the humans and the machines. This sets up a nice battle
with Neo for the ultimate fate of the world. With Neo forced to choose
between fighting to save the matrix which has enslaved/supported mankind and
having everything go blank and continue at a lesser level of survival (i.e.
machines only.)
All in all, I haven't had this good of a mind fuck in a long time. Great
job to the Wachowski brothers.
Peter
"Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Peter Owens
I think we have 2 options to follow.
1) Either the "Real" world is a matrix AND Neo is an AI
or
2) It is possible to see into the future.
why? Well unless option 2 was correct, if the real world was "real" and real
people were plugged into the matrix, then the Oracle could have no way of
knowing the future. You cannot "work out" what will happen in the real world
(check out any textbook on quantum mechanics if you dont believe me). The
only way the oracle could know the future is if she could calculate it. ie,
everything and everyone attached to the matrix must be themselves part of
the AI that runs it, and NOT a biological mass outside the realms of it.
This is a bit of a problem though since if it's true, then why the hell
would the AI even bother? As I see it they have no need for humans anyway...
hell if they already know how to do fusion why need humans? Even if the heat
energy thng flew (which it doesn't) why not use mice? Wouldnt even need to
plug em in!
Yes thats cynical, but it makes me think that the whole 'interdependance'
thing was explored for a reason. Humans are needed for something else?
On a ligher note... I'm not sure that Morpheus is wrong. He is way too cool,
proud and passionate about his belief. There's no way he's gunna turn out to
be wrong about everything. (even his interpretation of "The One"). Thats my
bet.
"Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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kolorado
<There's an additional twist that might emerge, based on that
> discussion with Zerbe's character, which is that the Matrix might
> have initially been consensual for all who decided to enter it. It
> may have been an escape from the Awful Future that, perhaps,
> mankind had foisted upon itself through war or whatever.
>
> Presumably we get a victory by Neo over Smith, and then Zerbe's
> character and the current council, and as part of this they gain control
> over the machines. But Neo, Trinity & Co., and Zion, might then be
> faced with offering the red/blue pill choice on a managed, species-wide
> scale, depending how awful things are on the surface or how many
> pod people :-) can be absorbed or reintegrated into reality. A twist
> ending where Neo and Trinity themselves choose The Matrix is also
> possible, but they would have to contrive, for example to have Trinity
> very critically injured in the battle of real-world Zion. The possibility
> of reintegration some years in the future might be held out as part of
> this.>
Good post, as was Johnny's to start this the rest of the posts on this
thread. I agree with your take and think Zerbe's character and the
rest of the council are distinct from the masses on Zion because they
have exclusive shared knowledge of the previous Neos and Zions. IN
that case they know they are actually the Oracle's creation and are
part of the Matrix game. But I do not think Zion is actually another
AI created Matrix. After all, one of the salient themes of the movie
is that the modern Web/Media/Virtual controlled earth has already
evolved into kind of a Matrix.
It seems a little too "Hollywood" to assume that the "one" has to bust
into the Matrix with violent flair every time. Perhaps there are other
"ones" (Smith) who can more easily move undetected in the Matrix at
will. These Agent Smith Types may be in contact with other free
thinkers who are in the Matrix but not of it (perhaps having
reinserted themselves after spending time in Zion). The freethinkers
would, of necessity, have to know how to shield their thoughts and
movements from the matrix police. So now the flaw in the Matrix
extends beyond Zion as the architect alluded to in the Central Control
Room (2 doors). The FREETHINK group may be vying with the the
Architect and the Oracle to evolve a new matrix that is more suited to
human free will (most likely) or, as an outside chance, to completely
destroy the Matrix forever. So they may have had an influence on both
Morpheus and Trinity allowing Trinity to corrupt Neo into not
reloading the Matrix as he was programed to do. (Johnny's door 1).
However, this would not explain why Morpheus acts so puzzled (and fat)
when the Matrix doesn't die as he expected it would.
I think it is significant that Neo now has the power of resurrecting
dead humans (Trinity) through thought surgery in the Matrix. Because
of this twist, I would expect we would meet the concept of a Human God
in more immediate terms in "Matrix Revolution".
Don't expect anything sublime out of the "Human Creator" though.
Perhaps just a Queen Latifa looking female martial arts technician
with a nice smile. This is, after all, Hollywood.
kolorado
Reed Naka
> Ooooooohhhh you're right I hadn't thought of that. The Zion at the end of
> Reloaded is a construct, but the Zion at the beginning of Reloaded was the
> real one.
>
> This is getting very Existenz. Anyone see that one :) ?
>
Mike Marchand
given in the movie.
Didn't the oracle say that their were programs still running in the Matrix
from the original Matrix? I believe that Merovingian's wife/girlfriend also
mentioned this... that Merovingian kept those old programs around because
they were the most difficult to delete.
If this is true, it would give credit to the theory that all 6 Matrix's are
still running. How could a program from the original Matrix survive into
the sixth Matrix, unless the others were still running somehow. Perhaps we
will discover that the characters will need to awaken a few more times to
get to the real world? IF in the previous Matrix's, Zion had been
physically destroyed, how could Morpheus and group be recreated in the next
Matrix? It would mean that their physical bodies would be gone, and the
problem would be solved... unless previous incantaions of Morpheus, Trinity,
Neo etc.. took place in completely different people.
Damn this movie really is a brain fuck!!
"Johnny Newsreader" <sym...@hotmaildotcom.spam> wrote in message
news:ba4a18$1erc$2...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
zach
> Reloaded is a construct, but the Zion at the beginning of Reloaded was the
> real one.
>
> This is getting very Existenz. Anyone see that one :) ?
That was definitely a mind job. I don't remember if it was possible to
figure out until clues started coming together near the end, or if I
just wasn't paying close enough attention. In a lot of ways overall
plot-wise, better than the Matrix.
Ebie
I think the "something is different" had to do with Neo carrying code
from the Source out into the "Blue Matrix" (as others in the ng have
dubbed Zion/Real World-as-Matrix-too).
Apparently that's not something Neo has any choice about, but was
something the Architect did to him. Or maybe his mere presence in the
Source did it to him.
--
"Me. Me me me." "Me too."
Ebie
>
>Finally as for speculating about the idea of what the fatal flaw is, has
>anyone considered that it is Smith?
Very much so! In all the speculation going on here, very little
thought has been devoted to what Smith really is at this point, and
what he might really want.
Smith is the biggest question without even a hint of a real answer in
'Reloaded'.
>In the original Matrix, Smith has shown
>himself to be a little rouge (his scene sans ear piece crushing Fishburn's
>skull) during which he expressed a desire to have himself terminated. After
>his blow-up-battle with neo, Smith died and got to see the whole picture
>because Neo can see the whole picture. In Reload, Smith is no longer
>working with the other agents and can no co-opt them for his own purposes.
>This is going to be a threat to the archatect.
We don't know that, because we don't know Smith's relationship to the
Architect. Seems likely that Smith is a sentient bug :) BUT -- given
all the switchbacks and mindfucks going on, it wouldn't surprise me
too much to learn that Smith wants something we the audience would
think of as "good".
He's still Neo's Shadow though, his Other. Even moreso than in the
first movie. Smith is clearly connected to Neo. He knows it, even if
Neo doesn't.
Hasn't anyone else wondered how Smith got into the Corridor?
>Smith sees that the only way
>to commit suicide is to destroy the entire cycle of rebirth that is the
>relationship with the humans and the machines.
I don't think Smith wants to die, or even to leave the Matrix anymore.
He said he wants "Everything." Don't you wonder what that means,
exactly?
>This sets up a nice battle
>with Neo for the ultimate fate of the world. With Neo forced to choose
>between fighting to save the matrix which has enslaved/supported mankind and
>having everything go blank and continue at a lesser level of survival (i.e.
>machines only.)
I don't think that's going to be the battle, although it's pretty cool
that it at least *seems like* Neo has to save the Matrix in order for
the "good guys" to win...
Has anyone else thought about what it might mean that when the Door Of
Light first resolved, we saw *stars*?
Jimboteque
the thoughts that Zion could be a part of another Matrix, server, etc.
I think the Wachowskis are a little smarter than that. THat would
make the movie way too "Thirteenth Floor" in which the creators of a
computer generated world find out that they are in fact in a computer
generated world as well, aka dream w/in a dream type stuff. IT would
seem a little silly and over done to me. I simply think that Zion is
a place that the machines "let happen" to deal with and keep all the
people who reject the Matrix.
We also can't underestimate the role that Agent Smith now has to play.
He says that he is free, but not really, etc. I take that to mean
that he is no longer controlled by the machines and the matrix, but
rather he is a "rogue program" shall we say. He says that he saw Neo
do something impossible that he couldn't believe, and yet he did
indeed see it. Now Agent Smith is freed of those who controlled him,
yet he seems to be trapped in the Matrix, hence his "free, and yet not
free" line to Neo. SMith has started to feel human emotion and or
feelings, etc. (Hold that thought.)
Now we have Neo, at the very last moments of the movie, stopping the
machines in their tracks after he says, "something is different this
time. I can feel them."
Remember when SMith tried to change Neo into another Smith? Perhaps
Smith left a little of himself inside of Neo, thus Neo could feel the
Sentinals approaching at the end, as well as restart Trinity's heart.
So we have Neo, who now contains something machine-like in him, and
Smith containing something "human-like." ANy thoughts?
Ebie
Couldn't help noticing that her candy was a red pill :) Hee hee.
KalElFan
message news:3ec62a83$0$20283$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> ... if the real world was "real" and real
> people were plugged into the matrix, then the Oracle could have no way of
> knowing the future. You cannot "work out" what will happen in the real world
> (check out any textbook on quantum mechanics if you dont believe me).
If you're talking about the uncertainty principle, you've misunderstood the
implications of it vis-a-vis The Matrix. The inability-to-predict "problem"
that specifically flows from the uncertainty principle would apply equally
to the real world and The Matrix. In both realms, what you have are
probabilities, not certainty. When The Oracle or The Architect or any
character for that matter "predict" anything, or say they "know" the
outcome, the understood context, for the quantum physics nitpickers
out there, is that they predict or know it with virtual certainty, not literal
certainty.
Besides, there's a much bigger problem that those looking for purely
"logical" answers have, and it's Neo's predictive dream. Either it's
something paranormal, or you have to interpret it the same as I have
in the last paragraph. Neo has mastered The Matrix to such a near-
perfect extent that, like The Oracle and The Architect, he is able to
basically run simulations that yield highly accurate predictions. This
contributes to his ability to perform so well tactically, and so effortlessly
in hand-to-hand combat and the like. But it also has his subconscious
working overtime, running predictive scenarios around that which he
considers most important: Trinity. Hence the predictive dreams.
Maybe the predictive dreams will be explained much differently, or
not explained at all and most people will just assume Neo had some
psychic ability. But the point is I don't think there are any science-
based nitpicks, like the one you raised, that will stick here. The
real world can be real. There can be a Real Zion. Even the Smith
evolution, and the Neo evolution, where they seem to be manifesting
certain abilities in the Real World, are explainable in ways other
than Zion having to be a Matrix.
There could also be an ubertwist, as another crossposter popped in
with ostensible knowledge of, where humanity is extinct and it's all
just one big Matrix. I think that'd be a mistake, but it's plausible
the creative minds behind this might have thought that'd be cool or
whatever. It's also plausible that resolution is Great Disinformation,
because it's the kind of two-minute dialogue-heavy revelation that
you could shoot but not edit into the final film. So you might have
hundreds who think they know for certain, but by the time the prints
get shipped for Revolutions it's not that at all, and the brothers and
a select few others -- none of the actors and so on among them --
are the only ones who know.
We'll just have to see how it turns out in November. :-)
Arthur Lipscomb
>
> "Johnny Newsreader" <sym...@hotmaildotcom.spam> wrote in message news:<ba4a18$1erc$2...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
> > Ooooooohhhh you're right I hadn't thought of that. The Zion at the end of
> > Reloaded is a construct, but the Zion at the beginning of Reloaded was the
> > real one.
> >
> > This is getting very Existenz. Anyone see that one :) ?
>
> That was definitely a mind job. I don't remember if it was possible to
> figure out until clues started coming together near the end,
If you mean Existenz, it was possible.
Possible Spoilers
Most notably (to me at least) the "rules" which are laid out at the
beginning of what it's like in the game. As the movie progresses, see
how many of the "rules" you notice in the "real" world.
Zith
> Smith containing something "human-like." ANy thoughts?
Yeah, it seems pretty whack that a prgram can jump into a body, and
start controlling it (although the mind was *once* hooked-up to a
machine, who's to say that every person doesn't have a bit of
hard-wiring in them?) but I think it's pretty obvious that Smith has
somehow escaped "the City" Matrix and is now in Zion (Matrix, or
otherwise). Though the speculation that Smith now has something
"human-like" in him is a stretch, why else would they include the 1min
scene of Smith duplicating onto a freed person, and then picking up
the phone?
Fall-apart: If this smith-like-person set off the EMP blast that
doomed Zion, how did he survive, being at least part machine himself?
Or did the machine part die leavng the human part on life-support?
And yeah, I TOTALLY think Neo has something machine-like in him now.
It sounds way out (although, he is 'the one') it helps explain his
little EMP-like move at the end. Afterall, the squids are controlled
by the Matrix, and if Neo is now hacked into the Matrix...
Plus, it does a lot to explain Trinity's resurrection. I could take
Neo being brought back to life in the first one but Trinity comeing
back was a bit too much (once your brain says you're dead, you're
dead. No arguing!) but if one can tell the brain that the body is
alive... well, all good theories fall apart somewhere, I guess...
So, what about Morpheous? Does he have some binary residue after the
corridor insident, or is that something only 'the one' gets.
Either way, there seems to be a couple things that just don't jive
with what we already know. I think (for myself at least) it'll just
take a measure of faith that the Bros will tie up all loose ends in a
befitting manner next time. They've brought us this far, why would
the disappoint now?
Al
Zith
Not too much.
1)Smith is upgraded. Perhaps opening the back-doors came
part-and-parcel
2)Smith could have broken into the room where the Keymaker was being
held, and grabbed a handful of keys. There was A LOT of keys in
there! Some of them must have been to unlock back doors... ;)
Now if Smith could get into the corridor, could he also get into see
the arcitec. If so, could he access the Matrix source code? If so,
has he? If he hasn't, why not? Maybe it's something reserved for
'the one'. Either way, the only thing that really resulted from the
corridor altercation was Morpheous being almost dupicalted onto by
Smith. Now why would that be important to include? (see my other
post...)
Al
Clint Jorgenson
Re: Agent Smith 'downloading himself' into a human and infiltrating
Zion:
I think a major theme here, is the fact that the programs themselves
are on a level of sophistication at par or even greater than the human
brain. Agent smith has the viral ability to take over another program,
and rewrite it as a copy of himself. Since the programs in the matrix
are based on the workings of the human brain, while plugged in to the
matrix the human mind is vulnerable to reprogramming.
I believe agent smith literally, formatted the dudes memory banks and
rewrote his 'operating system'.
This is one of the coolest concepts in the movie IMHO!!!
Clint Jorgenson
jason
another Matrix, the story would no doubt end with a very empty feeling
- would the next "layer" they find be real or not? We could never
trust it.
So, I've been focusing on trying to explain Neo's powers in the real
world. He really only did two things at the end of the movie:
1) He said he could "feel" the machines...sense that they were there.
2) He stopped them dead in mid-flight - apparently by either cutting
off their power supply, or sending a surge through them to overload
their circuits.
He didn't fly, he didn't whip out any kung fu, he didn't slow down
time or speed up his reactions...
What he DID do points to some sort of new connection between humanity
and the machines. There are other themes in the movie that suggest
this, sort of blurring the line between man and machine:
- Agent Smith copies himself into a human and enters the real world.
- In the Matrix, Neo can sense the difference between the people who
have real humans attached to them and the people who are nothing but
computer programs, like the Oracle.
- The Architect suggests that Neo can be re-incarnated, even telling
him that he can choose the body that he will enter.
Again, blurring the lines:
the mind = computer
the soul = program
We also learn that the world is much further into the future than we
were first lead to believe (this being the 6th time Zion has been
rebuilt). So, in that greater amount of time, what if humans have
continued to evolve while being plugged into the machines? What if
Neo is simply the first to awaken this new power?
What sort of changes would happen in the human brain if, for
generation after generation, it was plugged directly into a mainframe
shortly after birth and used basically as a computer to run the
program of the Matrix? The brain runs on electrical impulses. And as
the first movie showed us, we ARE a source of electrical energy. I can
see how the movie could go in that direction - Neo has developed a new
kind of connection with the machines. He was able to send a surge of
electrical current through the machines to stop them, but the source
of the energy had to come from himself and it left him drained, in a
coma. This explanation keeps Zion in the real world but still
restricts Neo's abilities to something that can be explained on a
physical level - he's not all-powerful like he is in the Matrix. It
also keeps him in line to complete the Prophecy, except now he'll be
doing it within the real world, not through his actions in the Matrix.
-JP
Rit Shreiner
> "logical" answers have, and it's Neo's predictive dream. Either it's
> something paranormal, or you have to interpret it the same as I have
> in the last paragraph. Neo has mastered The Matrix to such a near-
> perfect extent that, like The Oracle and The Architect, he is able to
> basically run simulations that yield highly accurate predictions. This
> contributes to his ability to perform so well tactically, and so effortlessly
> in hand-to-hand combat and the like. But it also has his subconscious
> working overtime, running predictive scenarios around that which he
> considers most important: Trinity. Hence the predictive dreams.
I like this explanation a lot. Especially given that we now wonder
what kind of human Neo is in the 'real' world.
The rest of this is not related to this specific post.
I think we are forgetting a few things. First - Neo brought Trinity
back to life. This happened in the Matrix, yet Trinity was dead in
both the Matrix and the real world. When Neo brought her back to life
he didn't just do it virtually, but in the real world as well.
So what does this mean? It might scrap the idea of a Matrix inside of
a Matrix (although part of me still leans towards that). Even if what
Neo did happened inside of another Matrix, Trinity (a real Trinity)
came back to life, somewhere (unless Trinity is a program).
Neo realizes that the Matrix and the real world are linked by the
minds of the people in it. Remember, this is all about our minds -
that is the most important part of our existance. The Matrix is a
very real place, because of the minds that it controls. Recall what
Morpheous says to Neo in the first movie after Neo feels blood in the
real world: "I thought you said it wasn't real? You're mind makes it
real." The Matrix is real. Or, just as real as the real world.
The first movie was principly (philosophically speaking) a look at
Cartesian mind-body dualism. I think it would be only appropriate if
we learn this - not that Zion is also a matrix inside the Matrix (with
an ending where all the main characters wake up in the real world),
but that there is no real world. At all. I mean, figure this, how
did the people who woke up know they left the Matrix? Because their
senses all reported a very different world. But think of that
contradiction - they confirmed that their senses were being controlled
and deceived by their senses. People do not exist as physical things
at all, but only as minds. Their creator is their God, whoever he is.
But the minds exist as God does - metaphysical beings. Neo will
realize that he has powers outside of the Matrix because there is
nothing real about that world too. This of course means the Architect
lied to him, but hey, I'll settle for that :)
Also, the spoon fits in nicely here (There is no spoon).
Obviously, there are some real problems with that explanation, and I
doubt it will be given in the movie (will the general public be able
to fully comprehend that ending, let alone like it?), but it is less
hokey than a Revolutions ending where everyone wakes up in the real
real world.
Some other tangents - why man wants to be more machine-like (faster,
stronger, more efficient) and why machines want to be more human-like
(Smith's anger, hatred, Monica Belluci's desire to feel love).
Overall, in a world with no real physical world, what is the
difference between man and machine? Perhaps this is an unsatisfactory
solution because it really muddies that question.
Regardless of the flaws (and I invite any and all to bring them
forward), I think Neo bringing Trinity back to life in both worlds is
a key to whatever explanation is given.
Also, why is Neo presented with a choice at the end? Is it only
possible to reload the Matrix with the One's consent? I suppose they
need someone to lead the new Zion-ers, although couldn't they have the
Oracle explain things to whoever they decide the new leader would be?
And why doesn't reseting the Matrix kill those who are so integrated
with it that they can't be saved (remeber Morpheous to Neo in the
first one explaining how some people can't handle being taken out of
the Matrix)? Perhaps the Matrix never really has been reset. But
then why lie? I suppose to take away Neo's hope of winning the war -
since the Architect identifies it as human beings greatness strength.
*Sigh* I gotta watch it again...... and man, I don't think I can wait
until November.
Rit
Kevin
> elsewhere (I'd be very surprised if it hasn't), is that Anthony Zerbe's
> character, and the council he's leading, look conspicuously like the
> people who would have been chosen to start this Matrix Round 6.
> Maybe Zerbe's character was even the Last One effectively forced
> to choose the door to his right. He spoke of choice and "Why" in
> a way one might expect from someone who'd had the last 40 years
> (or whatever) to contemplate the situation and issues surrounding
> his Round 5 meeting with the Architect.
>
So, when they panned the council, did anyone notice if there were 16
women and 7 men? And when Neo asked why everyone on the council was
old, don't they ever put a young person on it? He just smiled,
possibly because the council wasn't really elected so much as they
started Zion. Finally, the discussion, with Neo asking 'what's your
point'...the point was really the 5th One explaining why he chose the
door he did...we rely on machines, they rely on us, let's just
continue.
jason
> Hasn't anyone else wondered how Smith got into the Corridor?
I've wondered a lot of things about Smith, but there just isn't enough
info to figure this part out yet. It's obvious that he'll play a key
part in Revolutions. I'm hoping that whatever we find out will
retroactively "fix" one of my main complaints about Reloaded, which
is: why did Neo bother to fight The Smiths in the Burly Brawl? The
ONLY reason we have now is that it was an excuse for some kung fu
action. It doesn't fit into the story in a smart way. Neo could just
fly off if he wanted to (as he eventually did) or...did he forget how
he was easily able to destroy Smith at the end of the first movie?
-JP
Ebie
>
>Also, why is Neo presented with a choice at the end? Is it only
>possible to reload the Matrix with the One's consent?
Of all the questions and point you make, I thought this was the most
interesting. I don't know the answer, but I'm glad you asked the
question :)
jason
> from the original Matrix? I believe that Merovingian's wife/girlfriend also
> mentioned this... that Merovingian kept those old programs around because
> they were the most difficult to delete.
>
> If this is true, it would give credit to the theory that all 6 Matrix's are
> still running.
There may be something to the "old programs" remark, but I kinda
figured it was merely another side wink at the Vampire and Werewolf
crowd because she is saying the "difficult to delete" part as she's
bringing out the gun with silver bullets.
-JP
netgirrl
Reloaded. Anyone else thought about this? In the first flick, we saw
Neo "reborn" and once he was, he was unencumbered by the laws and
trappings of the material world (the matrix) and able to use his mind
to control the world around him. In Reloaded, he has taken on a
decidedly Asian flair to his clothing, and during the time at Zion,
offerings are made in a way that is reminiscent of how many would make
offerings to the Dali Lama. Additionally, Morpheus looks like a
buddhist monk with his shaved head and garb during his speech at Zion.
To carry on with this theme, think about the previous "Neos" in the
previous Matrixes (or is that matrices?.They died and were recreated
with no memory of the life thay had lived before. But there seems to
be a progression here, a progression that indicates that Neo is the
culmination of what has been learned by his/other Neo's conciouness in
other lives. Additioanlly, those within the matrix are also
"reloaded" or reborn every time that the matrix is reloaded. Perhaps
they too are progressing.
Any thoughts?
Ebie <sybi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<fi8dcvsuec3otma8t...@4ax.com>...
Scott Dubin
> "Peter Owens" <balor...@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> message news:3ec62a83$0$20283$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> > ... if the real world was "real" and real
> > people were plugged into the matrix, then the Oracle could have no way of
> > knowing the future. You cannot "work out" what will happen in the real world
> > (check out any textbook on quantum mechanics if you dont believe me).
>
>
Presumably, we could discover something new tomorrow that would make
quantum physics predictable. Looking at the scientific debate
involved, I don't think anyone REALLY understands quantom physics
anyway.
Either way, its totally irrelevent in terms of this movie. The Matrix
is not hard science, and is far more concerned with the philosophical
implications of determinism than its basis in science.
Scott Dubin
>
>
> Has anyone else thought about what it might mean that when the Door Of
> Light first resolved, we saw *stars*?
Looked like an homage to 2001: A Space Odessey
josephus
one thing that i noticed in the movie but haven't seen discussed so
far is the question as to why 'neo' looks the same in each iteration
of the matrix as seen in the video screens during the discussion with
the architect.
if the 'one' is some unstable human element in the system then there
really shouldn't be any reason why he would look like anderson in each
iteration. if neo is not human, but rather another computer program
in the system then it becomes more reasonable that he makes a
reappearance in each matrix iteration. i think it also allows us to
more easily find a connection between neo and smith.
thoughts?
Kokolums
Smith.
Remember the big discussion about how humans are different from every
other mammal on the planet in that they are like a virus, replicating
until they bring down the system? Who is the ONLY character that this
description fits in this film? SMITH! As in "John Smith", the
generic name for "anyman", or in this case "every man".
Smith is the one trapped and is breaking free. That was what he was
doing at the door to the Architect. He is the anomaly. When the
keymaker unlocked that door, Smith immediately forgot about Neo and
tried to rush thru the door. Neo stopped him and ONLY then did Smith
pull out the gun in desparation to try to prevent them from shutting
it.
Ebie
>interesting discussion so far.
>
>one thing that i noticed in the movie but haven't seen discussed so
>far is the question as to why 'neo' looks the same in each iteration
>of the matrix as seen in the video screens during the discussion with
>the architect.
Despite the posted transcript which points to some of the Neos saying
"Fifth verion?" while another says "Three?", I don't think those
representations of Neo are supposedly from previous iterations. There
were a hell of a lot more than 5 or 6 images there.
I didn't count all the various reactions, but I'm betting there were
more than 6. And unofficial transcripts are notoriously unreliable --
even earlier drafts might not be what was finally decided upon.
Also, nobody said The One was Neo every iteration. "The One" is more
of a function that a person can assume, rather than having to be a
particular person.
>
>if the 'one' is some unstable human element in the system then there
>really shouldn't be any reason why he would look like anderson in each
>iteration. if neo is not human, but rather another computer program
>in the system then it becomes more reasonable that he makes a
>reappearance in each matrix iteration. i think it also allows us to
>more easily find a connection between neo and smith.
Two other possibilities:
A) The Neos we saw were merely the Architect's simulation of what Neo
*might* say and do.
B) They were *all* current reactions of current Neos and the Matrix is
actually a muliplex "quantum computer" sort of sim -- different
*simultaneous* versions as well as different *sequential* versions.
If B), Neo's probably not an actual human -- since we don't do so well
with multiplex reality :) If A), he might be.
Ebie
Something wonderful's about to happen? Oh wait, that's 2010... :)
But what sort of thing is it? A clue, or just an effect?
jason
> him that he can choose the body that he will enter.
OK, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I have since read a
transcript of the Architect's speech, and he was actually telling Neo
that he would choose 16 females and 7 males from the Matrix to begin
rebuilding Zion. I thought he was saying he could choose a body for
himself to be re-incarnated into.
-JP
KalElFan
[KalElFan wrote]:
> > Another factor not mentioned here, but it may have been mentioned
> > elsewhere (I'd be very surprised if it hasn't), is that Anthony Zerbe's
> > character, and the council he's leading, look conspicuously like the
> > people who would have been chosen to start this Matrix Round 6.
> > Maybe Zerbe's character was even the Last One effectively forced
> > to choose the door to his right. He spoke of choice and "Why" in
> > a way one might expect from someone who'd had the last 40 years
> > (or whatever) to contemplate the situation and issues surrounding
> > his Round 5 meeting with the Architect.
>
> So, when they panned the council, did anyone notice if there were 16
> women and 7 men?
I certainly didn't, but it looked like quite a few women were on it. It
wouldn't have to be exactly 16/7 (8 including the Last One, Zerbe's
character in this scenario). Some could have died with replacements
appointed from usually-next-eldest among Zion's population.
> And when Neo asked why everyone on the council was
> old, don't they ever put a young person on it? He just smiled,
> possibly because the council wasn't really elected so much as they
> started Zion. Finally, the discussion, with Neo asking 'what's your
> point'...the point was really the 5th One explaining why he chose the
> door he did...we rely on machines, they rely on us, let's just
> continue.
Yep. I hope this is one of the revelations. It would also mean that
Morpheus's recounting of the situation in the first movie -- that it
was a century or so in the future -- could fit. Matrix v5.0 may go
back 30 or 40 years, but v1.0 to v4.0 may have been less robust
and lasted 60 or so years in total, so a century elapsed since this
started.
KalElFan
> > Besides, there's a much bigger problem that those looking for purely
> > "logical" answers have, and it's Neo's predictive dream. Either it's
> > something paranormal, or you have to interpret it the same as I have
> > in the last paragraph. Neo has mastered The Matrix to such a near-
> > perfect extent that, like The Oracle and The Architect, he is able to
> > basically run simulations that yield highly accurate predictions. This
> > contributes to his ability to perform so well tactically, and so effortlessly
> > in hand-to-hand combat and the like. But it also has his subconscious
> > working overtime, running predictive scenarios around that which he
> > considers most important: Trinity. Hence the predictive dreams.
>
> I like this explanation a lot.
Thanks. I like it more and more too. Partly because:
> Especially given that we now wonder what kind of human Neo is
> in the 'real' world.
Yes, and in this case it strengthens the love story element of the
movies. The One's love for another human -- Trinity -- was the
key new variable in this Sixth Matrix, that the Other Ones did
not have and therefore they accepted the door to their right as
their only real choice. This One, Neo, having experienced what
it means to be human more than the Other Ones had, made a
different choice.
And it wasn't just a selfish roll of the dice, i.e., "I'm unwilling
to accept Trinity's death, so I'll risk all of humanity on even
the remotest chance I can save her and we can be together..."
It was more "Screw the machines and this soulless loop. I'm
not going to kill all in Zion, and sentence humans to infinitely
more rounds of this..." The Other Ones just didn't have that
passion, because they hadn't sufficiently experienced what it
meant to be human. They were like Zerbe's character, who
may be the Fifth One, and perhaps the French Guy, who may
be the virtual remnants of an Earlier One. Emotionally crippled;
not much different than the machines by the time they were
crunched through this loop. Neo ends the loop, and his love
for Trinity was the missing element that motivated him to do that.
.
> The rest of this is not related to this specific post.
>
> I think we are forgetting a few things. First - Neo brought Trinity
> back to life. This happened in the Matrix, yet Trinity was dead in
> both the Matrix and the real world.
But not for long. I didn't see this as a problem at all. Recall that
Neo himself was resurrected in the first movie. What we're really
talking about here is the mind's surrender to a death in The Matrix.
For most it's inevitable. For The One it was not. In this case, The
One was able to perform immediate virtual surgery on Trinity; he
removed the bullet and then repaired the damage to her heart and
restarted it, in The Matrix. The surgery was a parallel success in
the real world. When you think about it, there's conceptually no
difference between the bullet in the Matrix killing you, and the
emergency surgery in the Matrix reviving you if it's done in time.
Only The One has enough skill in The Matrix to do the emergency
surgery.
[re the possibility that there is no reality]
Yes, it's possible the brothers were so enthralled with the Eastern
Religions elements we've seen, that they thought this would be cool
and that's what we'll get. But I think it would be a dreadfully bad
mistake in terms of the Great SF that The Matrix Trilogy has the
potential to be at this point. I'd prefer to think that the Eastern Religion
influences are no different than the Western ones, Neo as Christ the
obvious one, but also the biblical Zion, or the Greek Morpheus --
there are all kinds of mythological references. Allowing the most
bizarre of the Eastern Religion influences to basically sink the whole
Trilogy would be an unfortunate and dreadful mistake. No Pi-6 for
them if they've done that. :-)
> Obviously, there are some real problems with that explanation, and I
> doubt it will be given in the movie (will the general public be able
> to fully comprehend that ending, let alone like it?), but it is less
> hokey than a Revolutions ending where everyone wakes up in the
> real world.
I don't think it has to be that hokey at all. There can be twists and
moral dilemmas after Neo/Trinity/Morpheus/Zion regain control in
the real world. I alluded to some possibilities in an earlier post. As
we saw in the first movie, reintegration is a fairly involved process.
If part of the resolution is a slow, managed program of reintegration,
then the final shot might be a replay of Morpheus offering the red
pill / blue pill choice to the next in line for reintegration, and maybe
that shot morphs into a multiple screen one of similar choices being
offered, and then more split into pixelation of the whole screen, then
the signature Matrix green-drip thing and then a flourish and credits.
Very appropriate.
Hey, I might as well imagine the Great Resolution now, while I still
can. :-) In November maybe it'll literally be "There is no spoon".
> Also, why is Neo presented with a choice at the end? Is it only
> possible to reload the Matrix with the One's consent?
My interpretation is that it's simply the normal bug-fixing process,
which is what all this loop business has been about. You don't
chuck the whole program and rewrite from scratch, you refine it.
The door is simply the corporeal manifestation, within The Matrix,
of an IF/THEN instruction that will send everything to a loop-like
reboot -- The New Improved Matrix v7.0, but based largely on
the old code, and with Old Code Remnants still lurking about in
mostly non-functional parts of the program.
The problem, for The Matrix as an entity, is that successive iterations
have produced Ones that have become more and more sophisticated.
Or else This One -- Neo -- has had a new real-world element that
was not there before: his love for Trinity. So while there was never
any question that the Other Ones choose the door to the right, This
One may not. The Architect was looking at those screens, which
were not Earlier Ones but rather The Architect's reading of the
thought processes of This Neo. The Architect, and The Oracle,
are aware that This Neo may, unlike the others, choose the door
to the left because of this new Love Variable that the program
doesn't understand and therefore it's a wild card for it.
There's no reason to believe the door to the left leads to The Matrix
Surrenders in this scenario. The Prime Directive, if you will, of The
Matrix and its Operating System Components in particular The Oracle
and especially The Architect, is to get this thing rebooted to The
Matrix v7.0. There's no way the program is letting Neo trigger the
destruction of everything, or take control. What it's done is dump
him into a Failsafe Zion Matrix where he can't do any damage. He'll
think he's in the Real Zion, or at least the program is based on that
having the highest probability of Matrix Survival. And Agent Smith
is the Level 2 Turbo Failsafe Virus-Killing Software that's supposed
to contain Neo in the Failsafe Zion Matrix, or anywhere else he runs
so he doesn't get out to Real Zion before the machines have bored
in and destroyed it.
This also explains that Burly Brawl with the 100 Smiths. Smith wasn't
trying to win. It was just the program playing out and eating up time,
as it directed Neo to the decision/looping point with the Architect.
As for why Neo would have "wasted" the time with that, well from
his POV he was testing what obstacles/improvements he may be
running up against. Of course the real reason was it makes for such
a friggin' great video game to be Neo fighting your way through all
the code and failsafe code so you can get out there, save the Real
World, and if you've clicked the Hokey Mode Option wake up and
see the sunrise on the surface with Trinity. :-)
Again, until November and we get Something Else. :-)
KalElFan
> "KalElFan" <KalE...@scifipi.com> wrote in message news:<jlyxa.5804$z13.9...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > "Peter Owens" <balor...@optushome.com.au> wrote in
> > message news:3ec62a83$0$20283$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> > > ... if the real world was "real" and real
> > > people were plugged into the matrix, then the Oracle could have no way of
> > > knowing the future. You cannot "work out" what will happen in the real world
> > > (check out any textbook on quantum mechanics if you dont believe me).
Just to be clear, that was Peter saying that not KalElFan and now we
skip to Scott here:
> Presumably, we could discover something new tomorrow that would
> make quantum physics predictable.
The Something New has been M-Theory, M not for anything there's a
consensus on but some say Matrix believe it or not. :-) Others say
Mother of All Theories. Anyway it's based on string theory and 11
dimensions, only three of which manifest themselves to us spatially.
And black holes are actually akin to massive elementary particles.
> Either way, its totally irrelevent in terms of this movie. The Matrix
> is not hard science, and is far more concerned with the philosophical
> implications of determinism than its basis in science.
You may be right, but we'll only know for sure when we see the
Revolutions movie in November. There's more than enough here
that the entire trilogy could work very well as SF. Will they make
sure they preserve that, and the philosophical stuff will still remain
a part of it? I hope so. But maybe they've let the philosophy run
amok and dominate the resolution of this, and we'll get the "there
is no reality" business or some such.
KalElFan
> The reality is that Neo is an AI program and the REAL human is Agent
> Smith.
I don't think this one works at all, because of Smith's origin story, if you
will. He was Agent Smith in the first movie. Why would a human have
had that incarnation in the Matrix?
KalElFan
[I wrote, re possible back-to-the-real-world endings for Revolutions]:
> I don't think it has to be that hokey at all. There can be twists and
> moral dilemmas after Neo/Trinity/Morpheus/Zion regain control in
> the real world. I alluded to some possibilities in an earlier post. As
> we saw in the first movie, reintegration is a fairly involved process.
> If part of the resolution is a slow, managed program of reintegration,
> then the final shot might be a replay of Morpheus offering the red
> pill / blue pill choice to the next in line for reintegration, and maybe
> that shot morphs into a multiple screen one of similar choices being
> offered, and then more split into pixelation of the whole screen, then
> the signature Matrix green-drip thing and then a flourish and credits.
> Very appropriate.
It just occurred to me that the Ultimate (for me anyway) variation of
this would be a red/blue pill speech being started off by Morpheus,
sunglasses included. Then the same speech continues with Neo and
another reintegration candidate, and then the next leg by Trinity, and
then maybe the Jada Pinkett character, all in Matrix-cool sunglasses.
The speech talks about the difficult life that is the real world, as it
tries to rebuild and so on. You can reintegrate into that, or remain
in The Matrix. Then we fast-forward split to many emissaries of
Zion finishing up the speech to different candidates, multiple sound-
tracks in the background all mixed, and then have a final full-screen
shot of just Morpheus finishing it up with the question: "So which
will it be, the red pill, or the blue pill?" Then the signature green-drip
Matrix shot and the flourish and credits.
Now and a hundred years from now, a classic. Damn that I almost
certainly haven't guessed right, and it's something else. Ah, well,
maybe we can get 'em to come back and shoot that for an Alternate
DVD ending. :-)
Lord Nerd on High
supernatural powers in the real world. I'm kind of confused as to why so many
people would find having Zion be another layer of the matrix some awful cop out
of writing. I'd argue that anything that would lead to Neo having superpowers
outside of the matrix as the big cop out.
What makes the whole premise of the matrix interesting to me is that it all can
be explained in human terms. Neo is exceptional but nonetheless still human
because it simply has to do with his ability to come to realizations and to
think outside the box. In the regular world he's just a regular guy who is as
vulnerable as anyone else to what the universe has to offer. It's only inside
the matrix that he can get "supernatural" powers because he knows how to
manimpulate the system.
I'd be very disapointed if Neo ends up having some kind of supernatural powers
in reality. It would be a trite and painfully overdone sci-fi theme. It would
suck the humanity out of Neo and shift the story away from an issue of
consciousness and make it into any typical comic book or anime story. It's too
easy to explain things by saying, "Neo is the one and so he's got superpowers",
instead the story so far is driven by revelations. First we come to realize
that there is a matrix, then that we can manipulate it, but now Neo realizes
that no one has actually left the matrix left. I'm looking forward his return
to Zion and his discussions with Morpheus on this. Just imagine the horror
everyone in Zion will have at learning this news, if they ever do learn about
it. If they did then I'm sure plenty of people would get quite angry with Neo
and not believe him.
So for the general flow of the movies I'd hope it comes out like this:
The Matrix: There is a matrix!
Matrix Reloaded: No one has left the matrix!
Matrix Revolutions: What is the matrix?
As for Smith. It seems to follow that if you can download skills such as kung
fu and how to fly a helicopter then it wouldn't be hard for Smith to download
part of his personality into the guy. I think the hand cutting scene is pretty
signifigant. Smith hasn't completely taken over the fellow, the guy knows that
there is another personality in him and he feels like he's going insane. The
hand cutting is a typical psychological coping mechanism that people do to try
and deal with mental illness.
Why is he unconscious at the end just as Neo? I'd suspect it has to do with
his ability to survive. Perhaps in some way he used some Smith powers to avoid
being killed by the Sentinels and the non Smith part of him couldn't cope with
the realization and so both he and Neo collapsed at this sudden revolting
insight that they never left the matrix, maybe even the Smith part of him is
flipped out about that.
==
remove the crap to email
kolorado
> I think it would be only appropriate if
> we learn this - not that Zion is also a matrix inside the Matrix (with
> an ending where all the main characters wake up in the real world),
> but that there is no real world. At all. I mean, figure this, how
> did the people who woke up know they left the Matrix? Because their
> senses all reported a very different world. But think of that
> contradiction - they confirmed that their senses were being controlled
> and deceived by their senses. >
Exactly Rit. You can read all about it in the Yoga Sutras of
Patanjali. This is the theme of both movies and should be carried to
the next.
Ebie
[...]
>So for the general flow of the movies I'd hope it comes out like this:
>
>The Matrix: There is a matrix!
>Matrix Reloaded: No one has left the matrix!
>Matrix Revolutions: What is the matrix?
>
>As for Smith. It seems to follow that if you can download skills such as kung
>fu and how to fly a helicopter then it wouldn't be hard for Smith to download
>part of his personality into the guy. I think the hand cutting scene is pretty
>signifigant. Smith hasn't completely taken over the fellow, the guy knows that
>there is another personality in him and he feels like he's going insane. The
>hand cutting is a typical psychological coping mechanism that people do to try
>and deal with mental illness.
>
>Why is he unconscious at the end just as Neo? I'd suspect it has to do with
>his ability to survive. Perhaps in some way he used some Smith powers to avoid
>being killed by the Sentinels and the non Smith part of him couldn't cope with
>the realization and so both he and Neo collapsed at this sudden revolting
>insight that they never left the matrix, maybe even the Smith part of him is
>flipped out about that.
I thought this bit was a nice analysis, especially as to why
Smith/Bane cut his hand. Though my intuition says that's not really
the reason why :)
Smith tells Neo he wants to take from him "what you took from me". He
wants to take away Neo's purpose. I think *he* wants to be The One!
I have no idea how cutting his hand would further this end, but Smith
is nothing if not purposeful and focused.
Kokolums
> "Kokolums" <egop...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:94fddab.03051...@posting.google.com...
>
> > The reality is that Neo is an AI program and the REAL human is Agent
> > Smith.
>
> I don't think this one works at all, because of Smith's origin story, if you
> will. He was Agent Smith in the first movie. Why would a human have
> had that incarnation in the Matrix?
Hard to say. We'll have to wait until the third movie. All I know is
the scene where the entire Matrix becomes ALL Agent Smiths in the next
film pretty much confirms HE is the anomaly i.e. the human.
Al C.
> Like most people who saw Matrix: Reloaded, my mind has been trying to
> untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is going
> to reveal.
>
> Here's my take on the ending.
>
> (Obviously, DO NOT read ahead if you haven't seen the movie!!!)
>
> While the first two-thirds of Matrix: Reloaded occasionally seems like an
> excuse to stage some really nifty fight scenes, the final third is a pretty
> damned impressive and convoluted mind trip which you have to pay very close
> attention to. The entire movie is an examination of the concept of choice
> and free will, and echoes age-old philosophical arguments about
> predestination and the omniscence of a supreme being. To overly and crudely
> simplify the past twenty thousand years of debate on the topic, the argument
> is as follows: if God knows what we're going to do before we do it, then we
> can't have free will, because the non-chosen choice would and could never
> have been made, because the outcome is already assured. Both the Oracle and
> the Architect (the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)
> make Neo question whether his actions are truly his own, especially in the
> film's decisive moment, where Neo is presented with a choice that the
> previous Neo's didn't have, as only this Neo (which I guess I'll call
> "Keaneo" to keep him straight, hehe) had fallen in love. Or so the
> Architect says.
>
> So, what does this film teach us that the previous film did not? Well, it's
> certainly a lot later than 2199, as the first film implied. In fact, it's
> likely thousands of years into the future. The reason that Morpheus and co.
> believe it is 2199 is because they did not know this is the sixth version of
> the Matrix, and the sixth version of Zion. Since each new Zion is made out
> of people newly plucked from the Matrix, there is no way of passing on
> details of previous Zion destructions to others. (Of course, the movie's
> final moments also call into question whether Zion exists in the "real
> world" at all, as well, but more on that later.)
>
> The first Matrix that was designed was perfect, but no one was able to
> believe it was real, and all thought it must be some kind of dream they
> should be able to wake from. The Matrix was then tweaked and reloaded (the
> true meaning of the title; the ammunition double entendre carries over to
> "revolutions" as well) with a smaller percentage of people realizing that it
> must be a "dream". Each time, the people who get it, who realize it's not
> quite right, find a way to leave the Matrix, with the help of the Oracle,
> and found Zion. Why would the Oracle do this? Because the Matrix can't be
> allowed to be damaged with an unstable element. The individuals who "get
> it" need to be removed. It's a bug in the program, which the Architect is
> continually trying to fix with each new Matrix version. And each new reload
> eventually produces a Zion, and a Neo, and so the cycle repeats.
>
> The choice that Neo is given is essentially this:
>
> 1) The door to his right (the one Neo doesn't select) will reload the
> Matrix, as has happened five times before. The inhabitants will stay alive
> for the new version; their minds will just be reset. Hopefully by now, the
> Architect will have tweaked the Matrix enough to fix the bug and, if not,
> there will be a seventh Neo, a seventh Zion, etc. In this scenario, Trinity
> will die (since she'll be killed in the Matrix), her body liquified and fed
> intravenously to infants, etc.
>
> 2) The door to his left (the one he chooses) does NOT reload the Matrix,
> letting the bug continue. Trinity gets to live (for now), but the bug will
> eventually destroy the Matrix, and everyone connected to the Matrix will
> die. The machines will have to formulate alternatives to the bioelectricity
> that the humans provide, as all of humanity will be dead.
>
> In other words, door #1 reloads the matrix, the unstable element (i.e. all
> the people) in Zion is wiped out, but all the individuals get to go on
> living (in their little dream worlds). Door #2 doesn't reload the matrix,
> but the flaw will eventually bring down the Matrix itself, and everyone will
> die who is connected to it.
>
> The reason that Keaneo has this choice (whereas the previous Neos did not)
> is because the love of Trinity is a new factor. The past Neos who got to
> this point with the Architect really had only one "choice", i.e., reload the
> Matrix. There was no alternative after learning the truth about what Zion
> was -- a place where the Oracle got all the troublemakers who could damage
> and upset the balance of the Matrix to leave to. Because they were the ones
> who felt like they needed to make a choice that wasn't provided to them,
> they were encouraged to make the "choice" to leave the Matrix, which let
> them feel like they'd accomplished something. But since the Oracle's true
> motivations were to essentially quarantine the bug/flaw, it's a pretty
> hollow victory for the Zionians. Either way, the previous Neos reloaded the
> Matrix, and everyone goes on living in blissful ignorance, since the
> alternative (letting the Matrix collapse, killing everyone) is far worse.
>
> Neo's love for Trinity, according to the Architect, has doomed the Matrix's
> survival, as now, since the Matrix hasn't been rebooted, the unstable
> element will end up killing everyone, including the Zionians.
>
> Ahhh... but why would the Zionites be obliterated just because they left the
> Matrix? Well, that depends on your point of view. There are two possible
> ways, as I see it, of interpretting the ending:
>
> 1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
> least with regards to machines.)
>
> 2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established by
> the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life didn't
> feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
> haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
> never actually seen the "real" world.
>
> I'm not sure which scenario Matrix: Revolutions will reflect. Choice #1 is
> a more metaphysical, supernatural idea, whereas Choice #2 is more of a
> "practical", computer-based idea. Either has it's own strengths and
> weaknesses. Naturally, there are all sorts of other choices I haven't
> covered, or some combination of the two, etc., but I think most of the clues
> we've been given point to one of those, especially the bizarre penultimate
> moment of the film where Keaneo's powers work OUTSIDE the Matrix (or, if
> choice two is correct, a DIFFERENT part of the matrix, or a different
> matrix.)
>
> We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
> the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
> the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
> beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it happened,
> or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit of
> evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
> tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who "miraculously
> survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person we
> see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
> fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
> anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
> second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
> bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program to
> move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
> flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
>
> :)
>
> Anyone care to add to these observations, or refute them?
>
> symphy at hotmail dot com
This is my take on Matrix Reloaded
Neo really is "The One" but the machines are trying to occupy him by
making him live and fight in a dream world. What I mean is this: Neo
is supposed to be a person who has transcended and therefore not just
human, but something more (There is a lot of Buddhist overtones
throughout the first and second movies). I think that the Oracle is
in on the scam
in order for the Matrix to keep perpetuating itself, hence the 2
choices when Neo meets the Architect. I think Neo picks "the other
door," or the road never taken, since this is the 6th (or whatever)
running of the Matrix, which is why there is a reference in the first
movie about a One who freed them initially. Anyway, getting back to
my point. If Neo really is the "one" in real life it would be
important to have him waste his time in the Matrix, fighting digital
battles and not discover that he is the One outside of it too, where
it really counts as he demonstrated it with the squiddy things.
Al
KalElFan
A decade from now as three geeks exit the triple-bill revival
theater showing of Howard The Duck, Ishtar, and The Matrix
Revolutions, let's listen in...
Geek #1: So which one sucked worse, man? I say Revolutions.
Geek #2: Gotta be Ishtar.
Geek #3: Nah, Howard the Duck by a light year.
Geek #2: Nope, the Duck gets a pass because it's Lucas.
Geek #1: Yeah, Lucas gets a pass... in honor of Yoda.
Geek #3: Okay, then I'll go with Revolutions too.
Geek #2: No way, it's Ishtar! The brothers get a pass too!
Geek #1/#3: Why should the brothers get a pass, man?
Geek #2: Because... because they brought you... Yoga?
Geek #1 and Geek #3 stare coldly at #2.
Geek #2: Okay, Revolutions it is.
I've already conceded the possibility that the brothers might
have got so wrapped up in the Eastern Religions angle, and
your Yoga book, that they let a potentially great sci-fi trilogy
go into the toilet in Revolutions. In fact, there's a very curious
somberness I've noted in many of the interviews and publicity,
even the Cannes photo ops. It's almost like these are actors
who know there's something Incredibly Fucking Stupid Coming
In November To a Theater Near You. The culmination of two
years of work, that they know is destined to become their own
collective Howard the Duck or Ishtar.
As opposed to the storyline I've been speculating on, which would
be a big crowd-pleaser and true to the first movie's premise and
great SF and a lasting classic. Needless to say I hope I'm at least
close in my speculation, and that maybe the junket thing has just
been weighing on them all melancholy-like. And I hope you're
wrong kolorado.
KalElFan
[re the Agent Smith is human idea]
> All I know is the scene [in the Revolutions trailer] where the
> entire Matrix becomes ALL Agent Smiths in the next film
> pretty much confirms HE is the anomaly i.e. the human.
I don't think that follows either. It's just an extension of what we
saw with the Burly Brawl. Doesn't mean he was human. He
may want to become human, or even become The Next One
as Ebie suggested. We'll see in November.
KalElFan
> I'd just like to add that I certainly hope that Neo doesn't have any
> kind of supernatural powers in the real world.
Me too, but he doesn't need to. It can be explained without that.
> I'm kind of confused as to why so many people would find
> having Zion be another layer of the matrix some awful cop
> out of writing.
Not cop-out, just awful. What happens is you can't trust the
new layer of reality, or no reality, on top. It's like the three
movies have cheated. Not a cop-out, a stupid cheat. And a
very ridicule-prone one as you can perhaps envisage better
after kolorado's Yoga post and my three-geeks skewering of
that. Seriously, this is a very important point, for the sake of
a lot of careers. What you and some others have been talking
about will be VERY badly received. They've got a lot of money
riding on it and they can Send In The Shills in big numbers to
try to make it look like it has some support, but you have no
idea how much of a joke it'll become. Lucas brought you
Yoda, the brothers brought you Yoga. Hope it ain't so, if
you care at all about how this trilogy will be received.
The Failsafe Zion Matrix idea would work, because it's just a
Last Gasp Attempt by The Matrix to defend itself. There'd
still be the Real Zion that we saw in the first movie and the
first part of the second.
> I'd argue that anything that would lead to Neo having super-
> powers outside of the matrix as the big cop out.
See the first response above, but it's a separate issue anyway.
It's not like if the brothers gave Neo a Real World superpower
in Reloaded (they haven't, but let's assume), that they would then
have to think to themselves "My God! Now we've done it! We
must now make it all about Yoga!" I'm being very derisive here
not against you guys, but the idea itself. It's so bad, that if indeed
this is what the brothers have planned, I'd recommend changing
it. They still have six months. Time enough to re-edit around the
stupidity, and do a few reshoots or heck even some well integrated
voiceover. That ending that I speculated on would be cheap as
hell to shoot. But something to get rid of the stupidity, if it's there
which I very much hope it's not.
KalElFan
> Smith tells Neo he wants to take from him "what you took from me". He
> wants to take away Neo's purpose. I think *he* wants to be The One!
He's managed to imprint himself on the other (Real Zion) guy, but was
unable to do so against Neo in The Matrix. Maybe he hopes to be able
to imprint on Neo in the Real World, via blood or whatever.
Software Dude
> Hasn't anyone else wondered how Smith got into the Corridor?
>
In the original Matrix, Morpheus says that they (speaking of Agents) are
"guarding all the doors. They are holding all the *keys*..."
Software Dude
"jason" <j...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3cd391da.03051...@posting.google.com...
Richard Knipe
> untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is
going
> to reveal.
>
Here is a possibility that I'm toying with. Let's say that the merger of
Neo/Smith in Matrix1 imparted something from each into the other. Smith can
now move outside of the matrix while Neo can alter code in the machines
outside the matrix.
This simple plot device would allow the real world to be real and doesn't
need a second Matrix to explain Neo's downing of the sentinels. This is not
as creative as some of the possibilities we've discussed but it allows us to
take the Oracle and Concil "at face value" and as "guides towards
machine/human harmony".
So, the final plot would look like this. The Oracle and Concil are tired of
repeating the same old cycle and move Neo towards a new outcome. That new
outcome is machine/human harmony. What nobody knows is that Neo/Smith have
merged once and now Smith is outside to matrix to muck up their plan.
Fortunately, Neo has some of Smith in him so he is in a position to battle
Smith to ensure the harmony succeeds. Neo, good, versus Smith, evil, is the
basis of the movie with Neo succeeding in the end. Neo then becomes the
embodiment of machine/human harmony. Everyone is happy and we see millions
of pod's opening up at the end.
RLK
Eldritch
.
>
> As for the theory's that Zion (the supposed "real world") is in fact just
> another level of the Matrix or its own seperate Matrix.
> I just dont buy it. I cant say why...it just doesnt feel write. It seems
> they put alot of effort into the first movie making us understand the
> difference between
> the real world and the dream world.
>
>
It works for me. I don't buy that Neo has developed magical powers
that he can ply in the real world. Stopping bullets or sentinels with
a wave of his hand has got to be part of a simulation.
Moreover, I thought the Archetect was a bit too casual about allowing a
Neo to choose whether the machines would survive at a "reduced level" as
he called it. Why would he give Neo such a choice? I don't presume to
understand machine psychology, but I don't think they'd want to shut
most of themselves down at the whim of one of their "farm animals."
I think it's all a trick. The Architect put Neo in another level of
the simulation as soon as he flew through the door to save Trinity. I
don't know what it is, but I'm sure the Architect has some ulterior
motive for doing that.
I just can't see the movie ending with the machines winning or with Neo
and 7 other Adams fertilizing 14 Eves in a dank cave near the earth's
core where it's still "warm."
Consider this: The Architect is a fraud. He's not the Architect at
all, but rather a security program designed to protect the mainframe
from being attacked my Neo. Or maybe he just lied. And Neo fell for it.
E
Internet addict
> We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
> the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
> the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
> beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it happened,
> or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit of
> evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
> tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who "miraculously
> survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person we
> see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
> fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
> anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
> second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
> bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program to
> move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
> flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
hacked the guys mind through the matrix, due to the fact that his mind
was jacked in.
Matt
that he had "slept for the first 11 years of his life" ??
Does this suggest that he had been pulled out of the matrix at the age
of 11 or 12??
-------------------------------------
> Another factor not mentioned here, but it may have been mentioned
> elsewhere (I'd be very surprised if it hasn't), is that Anthony Zerbe's
> character, and the council he's leading, look conspicuously like the
> people who would have been chosen to start this Matrix Round 6.
> Maybe Zerbe's character was even the Last One effectively forced
> to choose the door to his right. He spoke of choice and "Why" in
> a way one might expect from someone who'd had the last 40 years
> (or whatever) to contemplate the situation and issues surrounding
> his Round 5 meeting with the Architect.
>
> Expanding on this further, it's possible Zerbe's character and the
> current council aren't about to let Neo's love for Trinity allow the
> destruction of all humans in the real world. Indeed, they may feel
> obligated, morally, to ensure that doesn't happen. And so what
> we may have been seeing here is a Zion Matrix that the council
> colluded with the machines to set up as a failsafe, in case Neo
> became too powerful and ultimately chose the door to his left. In
> this scenario, Agent Smith may have been virtually invited into
> the failsafe Zion Matrix.
>
> There's an additional twist that might emerge, based on that
> discussion with Zerbe's character, which is that the Matrix might
> have initially been consensual for all who decided to enter it. It
> may have been an escape from the Awful Future that, perhaps,
> mankind had foisted upon itself through war or whatever.
>
> Presumably we get a victory by Neo over Smith, and then Zerbe's
> character and the current council, and as part of this they gain control
> over the machines. But Neo, Trinity & Co., and Zion, might then be
> faced with offering the red/blue pill choice on a managed, species-wide
> scale, depending how awful things are on the surface or how many
> pod people :-) can be absorbed or reintegrated into reality. A twist
> ending where Neo and Trinity themselves choose The Matrix is also
> possible, but they would have to contrive, for example to have Trinity
> very critically injured in the battle of real-world Zion. The possibility
> of reintegration some years in the future might be held out as part of
> this.
John
restaurant to see Merovengian, as they are walking -- for a split
second I thought I heard some strange music -- kind of like from the
first movie -- as the camera caught a glimpse of someone walking by --
didn't see the face, but thought I saw a bald head --- Cypher???
Also, I was under the impression that the body on the other table was
Cypher -- but I guess the view that this is the man that Agent Smith
took over is probably more plausible. I just want to see Cypher again
I guess. Really liked his character. Last comment/question, actually
about the first Matrix, right after the main characters escape from
the trap and Cypher calls Tank from the payphone. Why didn't he just
use that phone to go back??? Sorry if this one has already been
answered.
Saffy
If you have not seen the anime series LAIN
you must rent it or download it!!!
The W. Bros may have been inspired by it..the resetting, the powers in
the real world, being able to access human thoughts in a machine like
way as we are all connected...it strangley rings a bell.
What if the matrix was just a spin off on Lain & we find out that
humans are all connected to the wired (all humans connected thru brain
waves) & that's why Neo can control things in the real world...like
Lain
I had thought the two were very different but now since matrix
reloaded,they seem to be so similar, i'm so miffed...
M.Revolutions better be different or it's like the w brothers just
ripped off the Lain philosophy.
I sure will be dissillusioned.
Any other Lain fans got comments on this?
*Is the real world "connected" like in the 7th version of the
wired...Hey! OMG...7th reload!...I'm starting to feel ripped off here!
*Agent Smith & Neo would be like the different "Lain's" then?
Everything fits if seen in the lain perspective, but i sincerly hope
that i'm wrong & that the brothers have concocted a cool ending with a
different mindframe to Lain.
Well, november will tell.
rdv @ cyberia-anime.com for more Lain Philosophy
jason
> where is the script?
>
found it in another newsgroup thread...try this link (and watch for
wordwrap)
-JP
Jon C. Hodgson
from the upcoming Animatrix (http://www.intothematrix.com/), i suggest
you do so to gain greater insight into the story and it's themes.
Also, the between-the-scenes footage from the "Enter the Matrix" game
will help flush out the story a bit more.
An ongoing theme of the Matrix revolves around "what is reality". That
is extended with "What makes a being Sentient" or self-aware and
capable of making choices as opposed to being a pawn in a life of
predestination.
The 2nd Renaissance reveals how the matrix came to be. Man created
legions of machines to do their work for them. They empowered them
with the abilities of all facets of human function yet they were
perceived to be socially inferior. One machine, B166ER fearing
termination by his master, killed him. At his murder trial B166ER
stated in his defense that he "simply did not want to die". A mass
termination of all machines was ordered, the machines rose up and won.
Thus the matrix was born. On a side note, B166ER looks a lot like the
way a SysAdmin might write "BIGGER" as a password.
Social inequality is clearly a theme here. Sentient beings want to be
treated as equals and with respect. Had we been able to live in
harmony with the machines in the first place, none of this would ever
have happened.
In the movie we are presented with further evidence of programs
becoming sentient, breaking away from their programming and making
their own choices. Programs choosing to go into exile fearing
deletion. This behavior alone is simply survival instinct, but clearly
involves making a choice as opposed to following a preset path, and
thus is the beginnings of becoming sentient.
The architect had to introduce some amount of 'humanity' into the
matrix to prevent it's breakdown. Is it possible that this humanity
has infected other programs and empowered them with some ability to
make their own decisions?
Borrowing from Christian Dogma, Social inequality existed in heaven as
well. The angels, while god's army and right-hand men with powers
greater than the humans, were ultimately second-class citizens, not
gods nor humans. This social inequality ultimately led to the revolt
of some of the angels, led by Lucifer in an attempt to overthrow the
creator. In Milton's 'Paradise Lost' we see the defeated Lucifer
changing his focus "it's better to reign in hell than serve in
heaven". Is it possible that Agent Smith represents Lucifer? He's
amassing an army and attempting to steal power away from Neo and have
"everything"... just as Lucifer's mission is to steal the humans and
earth away from god to have a domain to rule.
Neo.v6 is (IMHO) clearly an AI created by the architect to control the
.1% that didn't take the program. The prophecy of 'The One' empowers
the powerless until The One revels himself (perfectly timed i might
add, right before a matrix-destroying revolution). The One then
'leads' the humans to victory, and at the last moment, plays his
pre-destined part, picks the right door and resets the whole matrix.
The one also gets to pick the seed inhabitants in Zion which may be,
in essence, a puppet government for the architect. For some reason
(either through cumulative evolution or by the Architect
over-humanizing him), Neo.v6 has become sentient, and this time around
CHOOSES to pick the left door and lead the humans to true victory.
I also believe that Zion and "the real world" is indeed a second level
matrix. This is quite logical, as the architect knew with some degree
of certainty that revolutions would occur, so why not add another
layer or protection between the matrix and the real world? If the
humans were then to ever win, what would they actually win? The
machines can't lose in that case. In the computer security world, it
is common to have multiple layers of firewalls between the hackers and
the data you're trying to protect.
It seems as if Neo.v6 became even more self-aware after meeting the
architect, continuing to defeat the sentinels in the (seemingly) 'real
world' with his matrix-like abilities. Neo.v6 is clearly human at his
core (and the architect even said that parts of him were irreparably
human) so Neo.v6 has to once again overcome the limits his human(like)
mind places on his virtual abilities and learn how to use those in
'the real world'.
In the preview scenes for Revolutions, we see the humans surprised by
Neo's return from his coma, when Naiobe exclaims "Neo!" (this may be
akin to Jesus' resurrection from death). It also seems that humans
figure out that Neo was an AI designed to control them, so Morpheus is
perplexed when Neo enters the battle against Smith (as evident by his
reaction: "He fights for us!?!"). This further elevates Neo to a
god-level, an all-powerful being not of this world, that uses his
power to lead them to salvation, not only in the matrix, but in
however many-sub matrices there are before the true "real world".
Just as man became the architect of his own demise by creating
sentient beings empowered with immense skills in the real word --
leading to the birth of the virtual world, the machines will become
the architects of their own demise by creating a sentient being
empowered with immense skills in the virtual world -- leading to the
rebirth of the real world, and thus the circle is closed.
JCH
Ebie
>>
>> Hasn't anyone else wondered how Smith got into the Corridor?
>>
>
> In the original Matrix, Morpheus says that they (speaking of Agents) are
>"guarding all the doors. They are holding all the *keys*..."
>
>
Hmm. I thought that was just a metaphor. Smith isn't really an agent
anymore, yknow. He's his own "man".
--
"Yes, me. Me, me, me."
"Me too."
gsubu
> "Ebie" <sybi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:m8uecvg1n32bkp5gg...@4ax.com...
>
> > Smith tells Neo he wants to take from him "what you took from me". He
> > wants to take away Neo's purpose. I think *he* wants to be The One!
>
> He's managed to imprint himself on the other (Real Zion) guy, but was
> unable to do so against Neo in The Matrix. Maybe he hopes to be able
> to imprint on Neo in the Real World, via blood or whatever.
First of all I am proud that we have W Bros (Andy and Larry) in our
Hollywood making movies like these. We has human beings have been
brain washed with watching lot of nonesense in TV, Movies, ads, news
stc. When a movie like The Matrix comes once in blue moon it feels
good to be alive and makes you think there's more to life than what is
presented before us.
I have read most of yourpeoples comment and want to thank you for your
insight.
I would like to add my two cents to what's to come in the Matrix
Revolutions. As we know Agent Smith (machine) seems he can copy into
humans and at the end it seems Neo (Human) feels connection to the
machines. I think the next movie will probably touch the concepts
what Neo and the Chancellor (the white dude in Zion who does not like
to sleep) discussed that Humans and Machines need each other. I think
both Agent Smith & Neo will be the savior for their own kind. Lets
face it I cannot see my life with out internet and computers after
1995. As we move towards the future machines and humans will be vital
to the survival of existenz itself for both whether it is Zion (Real
World) or the Matrix (Matchines). Now the concepts of control, choice
and faith are the things everyone have their own interpretation and
responsibilities.
All I know is after watching these kind of movies it opens your mind
to dig deep and question more about life, it purpose and other
philsophical questions.
I think the W Bros (Andy and Larry) will not dissappoint and there
will a definte conclusion in the next movie. It will be that of
making us question even more about our existenz, purpose, god etc.
Can't wait for the conclusion.
Regards,
Gsubu
jason
>
> Neo really is "The One" but the machines are trying to occupy him by
> making him live and fight in a dream world. What I mean is this: Neo
> is supposed to be a person who has transcended and therefore not just
> human, but something more (There is a lot of Buddhist overtones
> throughout the first and second movies). I think that the Oracle is
> in on the scam
> in order for the Matrix to keep perpetuating itself, hence the 2
> choices when Neo meets the Architect.
Yes, that's kinda what I was trying to say in my previous post. The
Prophecy is real, Neo is The One - but the true path of the Prophecy
lies in the "real world", not the Matrix as we have been lead to
believe.
The best version of the Matrix that the Architect and the Oracle have
come up with still leaves that 0.1% anomoly that must be dealt with.
They cannot control the anomoly - The One will always follow the path
of the Prophecy...so what they must do is create an illusionary path
for him to follow, which Neo has done so far. This path leads to the
Architect, who presents The One with a choice to become a martyr and
save humanity - this choice is presented as "completing the Prophecy",
and it always work out in favor of the machines. The One sacrifices
himself because doing otherwise would destroy all of mankind.
BUT - this whole path is a ruse. This is how The Architect deals with
the anomoly, by leading him in the wrong direction and eventually
getting The One to choose death willingly. The TRUE path of the
Prophecy will be learned in November, and it will no doubt take place
in the real world, not the Matrix. I also touched on Neo's "evolution"
into something more than human, like you mentioned - here it is again:
--
I've been focusing on trying to explain Neo's powers in the real
world. He really only did two things at the end of the movie:
1) He said he could "feel" the machines...sense that they were there.
2) He stopped them dead in mid-flight - apparently by either cutting
off their power supply, or sending a surge through them to overload
their circuits.
He didn't fly, he didn't whip out any kung fu, he didn't slow down
time or speed up his reactions...
What he DID do points to some sort of new connection between humanity
and the machines. There are other themes in the movie that suggest
this, sort of blurring the line between man and machine:
- Agent Smith copies himself into a human and enters the real world.
- In the Matrix, Neo can sense the difference between the people who
have real humans attached to them and the people who are nothing but
computer programs, like the Oracle.
- The Architect suggests that Neo can be re-incarnated, even telling
him that he can choose the body that he will enter.
Again, blurring the lines:
the mind = computer
the soul = program
We also learn that the world is much further into the future than we
were first lead to believe (this being the 6th time Zion has been
rebuilt). So, in that greater amount of time, what if humans have
continued to evolve while being plugged into the machines? What if
Neo is simply the first to awaken this new power?
What sort of changes would happen in the human brain if, for
generation after generation, it was plugged directly into a mainframe
shortly after birth and used basically as a computer to run the
program of the Matrix? The brain runs on electrical impulses. And as
the first movie showed us, we ARE a source of electrical energy. I can
see how the movie could go in that direction - Neo has developed a new
kind of connection with the machines. He was able to send a surge of
electrical current through the machines to stop them, but the source
of the energy had to come from himself and it left him drained, in a
coma. This explanation keeps Zion in the real world but still
restricts Neo's abilities to something that can be explained on a
physical level - he's not all-powerful like he is in the Matrix. It
also keeps him in line to complete the Prophecy, except now he'll be
doing it within the real world, not through his actions in the Matrix.
-JP
$= Thomas S. McDonald esquire
"jason" <j...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:3cd391da.0305...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Hasn't anyone else wondered how Smith got into the Corridor?
>
>
> info to figure this part out yet. It's obvious that he'll play a key
> part in Revolutions. I'm hoping that whatever we find out will
> retroactively "fix" one of my main complaints about Reloaded, which
> is: why did Neo bother to fight The Smiths in the Burly Brawl? The
> ONLY reason we have now is that it was an excuse for some kung fu
> action. It doesn't fit into the story in a smart way. Neo could just
> fly off if he wanted to (as he eventually did) or...did he forget how
> he was easily able to destroy Smith at the end of the first movie?
More likely he remembered that by doing so he ended up fighting an army of smiths.
kolorado
>> I've already conceded the possibility that the brothers might
> have got so wrapped up in the Eastern Religions angle, and
> your Yoga book, that they let a potentially great sci-fi trilogy
> go into the toilet in Revolutions. In fact, there's a very curious
> somberness I've noted in many of the interviews and publicity,
> even the Cannes photo ops. It's almost like these are actors
> who know there's something Incredibly Fucking Stupid Coming
> In November To a Theater Near You. The culmination of two
> years of work, that they know is destined to become their own
> collective Howard the Duck or Ishtar.
>
KalElFan:
Don't worry , be happy. You obviously haven't read Pantajali's Sutras.
And you are mistaking Vedic Philosophy with Zen or some other dry
Buddhism. Yogis have been known to indulge in all sorts of ridiculous
powers, incarnations, fantasy worlds, etc. to prove an esoteric
philosophical point. There is nothing unexciting about Hindu
mythology. What would be cool is if Neo was able to transfer his
confidence to the real world and simply continue his party. I expect
he will, and the audience will identify with it. To oversimplify
Vedantic philosophy, there is basically nothing connected with the
soul that is either created or destroyed by the sense world. What that
means is that no programs are lost, souls don't get destroyed, just
wear new garments and get rebooted without losing the registry. So
there is no end to the fun you can have if you don't pay attention to
the "real" maya/matrix which is no more real than the AI matrix. The
only boring part I can envision is that all of the Zion residents will
want to learn how to play with reality too. Hopefully, the brothers
won't bother anymore with the tedious and unnecessary unwashed masses
in Zion.
kolorado
>
KalElFan
> Neo.v6 is (IMHO) clearly an AI created by the architect to control the
> .1% that didn't take the program.
"Clearly" we saw Neo working in his cubicle in The Matrix, and then
"clearly" we saw him in the pod, "clearly" human in the first movie.
> I also believe that Zion and "the real world" is indeed a second level
> matrix.
Making Neo an AI from the start would be a very dumb idea in its
own right, but what makes it spectacularly dumb is that it REQUIRES
that the Real World we knew from the first movie -- with the human
Neo in the pod and so on -- be just another matrix. You might as
well have Neo in a final shot waking up in the shower and saying
"Man, that was some dream". It just makes the whole thing a joke.
Saturday Night Live and late-night monologue fodder, nothing more.
But it would explain the somberness of the cast on this recent junket.
If they know what you seem to think you know, they have good
reason to be somber.
KalElFan
>... You obviously haven't read Pantajali's Sutras.
Ya got me there kolorado. I admit it. Like 99%+ of the market
for these movies, I haven't read that.
> And you are mistaking Vedic Philosophy with Zen or some other dry
> Buddhism.
No, actually what I'm doing is not giving a shit about any of that
kolorado. I loved the first Matrix movie, but barely gave it a
thought for 4 years until I read the spoilerish Time Magazine article
that caused a stir, about a week ago. Then I saw the movie, and
I popped into this group for the first time in months and months
because Johnny Newsreader made a pretty good summary of
what actually happened in Reloaded.
I haven't seen those Animatrix videos, or played the video game,
or tried to find spoilers for Revolutions. Unlike The Matrix which
I saw three times or more, I won't be seeing Reloaded again. No
point. It's half a movie, and everything will depend on the final
part of it in November. I'm fascinated that this trilogy has the
potential to be among the best SF ever made, or a spectacular,
infamously awful train wreck depending how they resolve it.
What you were responding to, approvingly, would be the latter.
Ebie
He didn't forget. Isn't that actually a reason for staying to fight
him/them? He thought it would be easy. Also, he had no idea of the
sheer *number* of Smiths that would get involved.
Timothy Miller
> untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is going
> to reveal.
>
> Here's my take on the ending.
I caught this post while trying to search for others discussing the
"strange loop" (a la Godel Escher Bach) apparent in the film at the
end. I also surmised that the "real world" was in fact not real but
actually just another part of the martix where people are made to
believe they've escaped.
Many things come to mind, such as people not really existing at
all--everyone's a program. It was suggested that Neo was programmed
to do what he did, as a way for the Matrix to properly reboot when the
effects of the bug inevitably reached a critical level.
While I can see how someone outside of the matrix could have their
brain rewired by whatever wires are in their brain that jack them in,
I do agree that it's all the more plausible that the Agent Smith
program just moved from one place to another.
One thing that I noticed that bugged me: Just before Agent Smith
infected that guy, the OTHER guy who jacked out was given a package to
take back to Neo. He stuck it into his pocket then jacked out. How
the heck would it be possible to move an OBJECT out of the Matrix?
Now, given the "Zion is in the matrix" theory, then it certainly makes
sense. But my big questions is WHY DIDN'T IT BOTHER THEM? Wouldn't
the zionists realize that this shouldn't be possible?
I have a feeling that the whole Matrix concept is a big mind screw by
the writers... what we figure out from THIS movie will also be shown
to be wrong by the next one. :)
Dawn Taylor
announced in front of God and everybody:
> I'm fascinated that this trilogy has the
>potential to be among the best SF ever made, or a spectacular,
>infamously awful train wreck depending how they resolve it.
But, Kal -- isn't the important thing really how much money it made?
And what the Cinemascore and critics' "point" systems add up to?
Dawn
Mark Jones
> You might as
> well have Neo in a final shot waking up in the shower and saying
> "Man, that was some dream". It just makes the whole thing a joke.
lame multiple level matrix. This would seriously undermine
the story.
Mark Jones
news:80eae8c5.03051...@posting.google.com...
> I have a feeling that the whole Matrix concept is a big mind screw by
> the writers... what we figure out from THIS movie will also be shown
> to be wrong by the next one. :)
the movies into a bad joke and make me not trust
the directors in the future.
Jon C. Hodgson
that Neo is indeed human, and that the "real world" is indeed real, in
which case Neo must therefore possess some truly mystical powers if he
was able to stop the sentinels in the real world. That seems to me
like a cop-out as well, considering that there has been no indication
to this point that such a possibility could exist in the real world.
An alternate explanation to the 'mystical powers' route would be that
in the final scene, Neo (& possibly his crew) were still in the
matrix, in a section created by the architect to contain him etc.? I
really don't buy that at all though. That seems even more contrived.
If my theory is not true, then I'm also curious why in the preview
scenes for Revolutions, Morpheus so surprisingly says "he fights for
us!?!" -- almost as if he had written Neo off as a fraud not intended
(or capable) to lead them to victory, and that Neo's re-appearance
proves him wrong. If Neo was indeed a human meant to save them, then
Morpheus should not be perplexed at all by this.
I will say that if Neo is indeed an AI, and the entire first movie was
set in a 2nd-level matrix, that does not necessarily have to be a
dream-sequence type of cop-out considering that somewhere underneath
all the virtuality, there are real humans in pods who are not fully
accepting of the program, and rebelling, quite possibly only with
their minds, to fight the battles in the virtual 'real world' ... yes,
it is an odd concept to think that somewhere Morpheus, Trinity and the
rest are actually still in a pod somewhere hooked into the matrix. It
would not be a dream sequence at all, considering that everything that
had transpired did indeed occur, just not in a physically tangible
realm that were are all used to.
On thing's for certain, the movie has us all confused to some degree
or another and many of us are obsessing far too much (myself included)
on what it's really all about and how deep the rabbit hole actually
goes.
- Jon
"KalElFan" <KalE...@scifipi.com> wrote in message news:<5JWxa.686$c41....@news20.bellglobal.com>...
Kokolums
> "Kokolums" <egop...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:94fddab.03051...@posting.google.com...
>
> [re the Agent Smith is human idea]
>
> > All I know is the scene [in the Revolutions trailer] where the
> > entire Matrix becomes ALL Agent Smiths in the next film
> > pretty much confirms HE is the anomaly i.e. the human.
>
> I don't think that follows either. It's just an extension of what we
> saw with the Burly Brawl. Doesn't mean he was human. He
> may want to become human, or even become The Next One
> as Ebie suggested. We'll see in November.
Just saw the film again. Agent Smith gives Neo his old earpiece thru
the mailslot. The next thing is 3 agents bust open that door. Those
3 agents were chasing the anomaly - agent Smith - who ran and hid and
not Neo as you were led to believe there. The 3 agents mistook Neo
for the anomaly, possibly because of their merging at the end of the
1st film, or possibly because Neo was holding Smith's earpiece at the
time (they were tracking it). Then Smith comes back out of hiding and
remarks "its all happening again". He says that because he's been
here before - he's the anomaly.
Also note the operators can't quite understand what they are seeing
when they see Smith's code on their screens - he's literally an
"anomaly" to them.
David
> Moreover, I thought the Archetect was a bit too casual about allowing a
> Neo to choose whether the machines would survive at a "reduced level" as
> he called it. Why would he give Neo such a choice? I don't presume to
> understand machine psychology, but I don't think they'd want to shut
> most of themselves down at the whim of one of their "farm animals."
>
>
> I think it's all a trick. The Architect put Neo in another level of
> the simulation as soon as he flew through the door to save Trinity. I
> don't know what it is, but I'm sure the Architect has some ulterior
> motive for doing that.
>
Ever since Neo walked throgh the left door, the sequence of events that
followed is a blur, thus my questions.
- As Neo flew out of the building, wasn't a weapon of mass destruction set
off What was the source of the bomb?
- Morpheus - how did he get back in to ship so fast? How he escaped the
Matrix isn't very clear
- How did Neo and Trinity get back in the ship so fast. Wasn't the ship
under attack as they were making their ways to the main frame?
- What happened to Captain Naomi?
Could somebody spell out the sequence of events that took place after Neo
walked through the left door? I plan on seeing the movie for the second
time soon.
KalElFan
> Your points are well made and well taken. The alternative however is
> that Neo is indeed human, and that the "real world" is indeed real...
The thing is Jon, it's not an alternative. It's an established premise of
The Matrix -- the original movie as well as the trilogy. One of the many
great things about the first movie was the human Thomas Anderson,
being given the blue/red pill choice, and finding out about The Awful
Real World Future, and that he'd been living in The Matrix, and the
idea of Agent Smith and company as avatars of the machines within
The Matrix and so on. It REALLY perplexes me why some -- and
some apparently big fans of the Matrix -- think that completely flushing
all that down the toilet is a good idea. It'd be a spectacularly bad idea
if they were to do that.
> in which case Neo must therefore possess some truly mystical powers
> if he was able to stop the sentinels in the real world.
Even if this were true in the logic sense (it's not), the main point would
be the one I made above. If the brothers thought/realized "gee, if he
stops the sentinels here, that means our Real World isn't real and we
have to make it another layer of Matrix" then they shouldn't have written
Neo stopping the sentinels. It's not like there's some unstoppable force
compelling them to write some damn fool thing, which then compels
them to dump everything good they've already written into the toilet.
But there are other explanations. A Failsafe Zion Matrix came fully
online when Neo chose the door to his left. Or Neo has acquired
some real-world capabilities, e.g., he can tap into the machine net,
and/or the sentinels and cause an internally-generated EMP. Maybe
his encounters with Smith have allowed him to do that, or maybe
something else. But he's still human, and there's still the Real World
including Zion.
> An alternate explanation to the 'mystical powers' route would be that
> in the final scene, Neo (& possibly his crew) were still in the
> matrix, in a section created by the architect to contain him etc.? I
> really don't buy that at all though. That seems even more contrived.
That's the Failsafe Zion Matrix I proposed. I don't think it's contrived.
I think it's a simpler failsafe than running two layers of Matrix. The
machines want a clean reboot to The Matrix v7. They've always got
it via Previous Ones choosing the door to the right, but they have a
failsafe backup plan when he goes through the door to his left as
This One (Neo) did. What would be bizarre is if the machines were
to allow their own destruction (or having to operate at a lower level)
just because of a glitch (from their POV) where Neo goes left.
> If my theory is not true, then I'm also curious why in the preview
> scenes for Revolutions, Morpheus so surprisingly says "he fights for
> us!?!" -- almost as if he had written Neo off as a fraud not intended
> (or capable) to lead them to victory, and that Neo's re-appearance
> proves him wrong. If Neo was indeed a human meant to save them,
> then Morpheus should not be perplexed at all by this.
Well, there are all kinds of possibilities here. We may never see that
in the movie. Or since we don't know how the trailer was cobbled
together, maybe there's a twist where Agent Smith fights for them at
some point. Or maybe machine disinformation causes Morpheus to
doubt Neo. Or maybe if it's a Failsafe Zion Matrix that they've
dumped Neo into, it's not even the real Morpheus. Again, I just
don't understand why things like a line in a trailer have you thinking
they're going to dump the whole trilogy into the toilet.
> I will say that if Neo is indeed an AI, and the entire first movie was
> set in a 2nd-level matrix, that does not necessarily have to be a
> dream-sequence type of cop-out considering that somewhere underneath
> all the virtuality, there are real humans in pods who are not fully
> accepting of the program...
But this is the thing, there isn't. That's the whole point. I'm not sure
why this is a problem understanding for some of the people advocating
this. Maybe if you think of it like those Russian Dolls, or like crying
wolf, or like Bobby waking up in the shower in Dallas, you'll understand
the problem better. Why should we believe whatever the next Real
World supposedly is? Or that there is no Real World? There's no
reason at all to believe it. They (retroactively) wasted their whole
first movie lying about fundamental elements. Maybe you'll believe
that the cheating stops and the next real world is the real one, but
remember the fool me once / fool me twice saying.
> On thing's for certain, the movie has us all confused to some degree
> or another and many of us are obsessing far too much (myself included)
Well, at least I've confined myself to this Matr... I mean this thread. :-)
KalElFan
> Then Smith comes back out of hiding and
> remarks "its all happening again". He says that because he's been
> here before - he's the anomaly.
He's an anomaly virtually by definition -- his own declaration, and his
ability to replicate. I have no problem accepting the obvious. It's the
leap to Agent Smith being human that I question. As for that "it's all
happening again" line, that was probably just foreshadowing the 6th
matrix business, which Smith had or acquired knowledge of.
trotsky
Troll alert!
ehran
If indeed we're at the 6th matrix and hundred years later than we
supposed in Matrix 1, why wouldnt the machines do what we do to our
corn crops .... modify human, make him more productive, make him more
controlable ...
And if this is the case, maybe humans became part cyborg... and neo is
more like a downloaded program in a cyborg shell (and can control
other robots in the real world ?) and smith did replicate himself in
those cyborgs.....
bake the noodles ??
Ehran
Bob Hobbler
I walked out after about half an hour.
During the dance scene, I was thinking, "What if in the sequel to
the original Star Wars, just before a big battle, they had a five minute slow
motion disco dancing sequence?" I also thought it was funny that with
all the high tech ships and really cool sunglasses (which they need
in the dim light because.....?)the natives of zion don't have better
gifts to give neo than the roots, shrubs and berries they offered. And
what if in the sequal to Star Wars we had to cut to Harrison Ford
on the other side of the galaxy, listening to his wife bitch about
how long he's been away? Might slow things down a bit, no?
But now it all makes sense. The ridiculous plot elements of this movie
are just another version of the matrix, and Zion isn't real. That would
actually fit better with the first movie, because there Zion was never
shown, and it was never clear to viewers that it was a real place or
just another heaven.
Tell me that's the case, and I'll go see it again. If only the Phantom
Menace had been just a bad reboot....
BH
Ray DeLaPena
> retroactively "fix" one of my main complaints about Reloaded, which
> is: why did Neo bother to fight The Smiths in the Burly Brawl? The
> ONLY reason we have now is that it was an excuse for some kung fu
> action. It doesn't fit into the story in a smart way. Neo could just
> fly off if he wanted to (as he eventually did) or...did he forget how
>
> -JP
A lot of people have raised this complaint and I see it as a non-issue. First,
I don't see a problem with an "excuse" for a kung-fu fight. That's part of
what we came for. Remember that the "Brothers W" are huge fans of the genre
and have brought in experts in the field with an eye towards providing some of
that kind of action (in fact the BEST of that kind of action) Second, I
thought they made it obvious that Neo had to really concentrate to be able to
fly or "do his superman thing", which he obviously couldn't do with 100 Simths
on his back. This also lends a bit more ammo to the Matrix-within-Matrix idea.
They have always maintained that Neo, while he does have clearly superhuman powers,
can't do _anything_. There are still some rules, some constraints.
This would also explain why (along with the psychological shock) Neo would
collapse when he stops the sentinels at the very end. It takes a lot out of
him to bend the rules so far. Given the theory that all the "rebels" are still
in the matrix, the rules that are that they have no "powers" and if they die in
the matrix, they die in the "real" world. Neo has already proven the latter
wrong, now he is proving the former wrong.
I also do definitely not see it as a cop out if ZIon is a construct as well.
The philosophical dilemma of the first movie dealt with the notion "How do you
know that you are not in a dream world?" We are assuming that they have
figured it out by the end of M1. You figure it out when you leave the matrix
and wake up on a hovercraft, etc. But the meta-matrix theory provides an
alternate answer... "You can't." Which provides, in Revolutions, an exploration
of that realization, or the rejection of it. Good stiff, if you ask me.
I can see it either way, and am anxious to see what the bro's take is.
I think it will be a great trilogy either way.
BB
Morpheus, Link and Trinity. I don't know exactly why Neo fainted.
<pdu...@op.net> wrote in message news:<Sygxa.17131$zt....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>...
> "Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ba3pch$v8j$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
>
> >
> > 1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
> > least with regards to machines.)
> >
> > 2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established
> by
> > the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life
> didn't
> > feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
> > haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
> > never actually seen the "real" world.
> >
>
> > We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
> > the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
> > the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
> > beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it
> happened,
> > or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit
> of
> > evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
> > tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who
> "miraculously
> > survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person
> we
> > see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
> > fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
> > anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
> > second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
> > bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program
> to
> > move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
> > flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
>
> I think Smith is in a REAL real world, and so is Zion. The contrast is
> between the
> red blood of real humanity and the green "lifeblood" of the AI in the
> matrix,
> made explicit in the scene where the other ship is hit and blood drips down
> the computer scene atop the green matrix flow.
>
> The AIs have control and understanding of human physiology and brain
> chemistry.
> The architect can predict, like a chess program, the vast majority of Neon's
> responses,
> by his understanding of the deterministic nature of brain chemistry, and he
> can
> display them on the monitors.
>
> So its not a big stretch for the neo-infected smith who has some measure of
> independence,
> and like any agent has the ability to take over avatars in the matrix, to
> take over a
> matrix hacker and come back on the uplink, as a brain chemistry virus.
>
> Likewise, Neo is a bioelectric battery, like any human. But he's also the
> "one", and
> was linked up with Smith in his death, and thus he can generate an EMP
> through
> the physical implants still in him which is enough to take the sentinels
> out.
>
> I think any MetaMatrix would be a cop-out answer, though I can guess the
> directors
> like the possibility as a misdirection.
>
> Paul D.
BB
> idea zion as a separate matrix.
> 1) Oracle knows Keano's dreams.
> Although she doesn't say it outright, it is certainly implied that Oracle
> knows that Neo has seen Trinity's death in his dreams. Short of some sort
> of psychic computer system, there really isn't a way for a computer program
> running in some sort of matrix to see a person's dream who is not connected.
> Unless of course she can read memories of some sort and as a result can see
> what has already been thought.
It could be that when he gets plugged in the matrix (or the program
oracle) somehow can see in his brain or infer from his reactions.
programs are smart.
the question is: how does neo see the future? does he speculate as
well?
it might be that the matrix predicted what would happen to trinity and
neo somehow has a dream of it, he got that info from the matrix. I
think the final resolution would be something simpler that most people
predict/expect.
>
> 2) The spoon!
it might just be another, real, spoon. that kid escaped from the
matrix and
now gave a spoon as a present to neo. after 6 months, i don't think
the spoon would look that bad, in comparison to the shiny matrix
spoon. unless that kid made it bend too much.
HAve you noticed that in the trailer of revolutions smith can fly?
-BB
> Finally as for speculating about the idea of what the fatal flaw is, has
> anyone considered that it is Smith? In the original Matrix, Smith has shown
> himself to be a little rouge (his scene sans ear piece crushing Fishburn's
> skull) during which he expressed a desire to have himself terminated. After
> his blow-up-battle with neo, Smith died and got to see the whole picture
> because Neo can see the whole picture. In Reload, Smith is no longer
> working with the other agents and can no co-opt them for his own purposes.
> This is going to be a threat to the archatect. Smith sees that the only way
> to commit suicide is to destroy the entire cycle of rebirth that is the
> relationship with the humans and the machines. This sets up a nice battle
> with Neo for the ultimate fate of the world. With Neo forced to choose
> between fighting to save the matrix which has enslaved/supported mankind and
> having everything go blank and continue at a lesser level of survival (i.e.
> machines only.)
>
> All in all, I haven't had this good of a mind fuck in a long time. Great
> job to the Wachowski brothers.
>
> Peter
>
> "Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ba3pch$v8j$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> > Like most people who saw Matrix: Reloaded, my mind has been trying to
> > untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is
> going
> > to reveal.
> >
> > Here's my take on the ending.
> >
> > (Obviously, DO NOT read ahead if you haven't seen the movie!!!)
> >
> > While the first two-thirds of Matrix: Reloaded occasionally seems like an
> > excuse to stage some really nifty fight scenes, the final third is a
> pretty
> > damned impressive and convoluted mind trip which you have to pay very
> close
> > attention to. The entire movie is an examination of the concept of choice
> > and free will, and echoes age-old philosophical arguments about
> > predestination and the omniscence of a supreme being. To overly and
> crudely
> > simplify the past twenty thousand years of debate on the topic, the
> argument
> > is as follows: if God knows what we're going to do before we do it, then
> we
> > can't have free will, because the non-chosen choice would and could never
> > have been made, because the outcome is already assured. Both the Oracle
> and
> > the Architect (the mother and father of the Matrix, according to Reloaded)
> > make Neo question whether his actions are truly his own, especially in the
> > film's decisive moment, where Neo is presented with a choice that the
> > previous Neo's didn't have, as only this Neo (which I guess I'll call
> > "Keaneo" to keep him straight, hehe) had fallen in love. Or so the
> > Architect says.
> >
> > So, what does this film teach us that the previous film did not? Well,
> it's
> > certainly a lot later than 2199, as the first film implied. In fact, it's
> > likely thousands of years into the future. The reason that Morpheus and
> co.
> > believe it is 2199 is because they did not know this is the sixth version
> of
> > the Matrix, and the sixth version of Zion. Since each new Zion is made
> out
> > of people newly plucked from the Matrix, there is no way of passing on
> > details of previous Zion destructions to others. (Of course, the movie's
> > final moments also call into question whether Zion exists in the "real
> > world" at all, as well, but more on that later.)
> >
> > The first Matrix that was designed was perfect, but no one was able to
> > believe it was real, and all thought it must be some kind of dream they
> > should be able to wake from. The Matrix was then tweaked and reloaded
> (the
> > true meaning of the title; the ammunition double entendre carries over to
> > "revolutions" as well) with a smaller percentage of people realizing that
> it
> > must be a "dream". Each time, the people who get it, who realize it's not
> > quite right, find a way to leave the Matrix, with the help of the Oracle,
> > and found Zion. Why would the Oracle do this? Because the Matrix can't
> be
> > allowed to be damaged with an unstable element. The individuals who "get
> > it" need to be removed. It's a bug in the program, which the Architect is
> > continually trying to fix with each new Matrix version. And each new
> reload
> > eventually produces a Zion, and a Neo, and so the cycle repeats.
> >
> > The choice that Neo is given is essentially this:
> >
> > 1) The door to his right (the one Neo doesn't select) will reload the
> > Matrix, as has happened five times before. The inhabitants will stay
> alive
> > for the new version; their minds will just be reset. Hopefully by now,
> the
> > Architect will have tweaked the Matrix enough to fix the bug and, if not,
> > there will be a seventh Neo, a seventh Zion, etc. In this scenario,
> Trinity
> > will die (since she'll be killed in the Matrix), her body liquified and
> fed
> > intravenously to infants, etc.
> >
> > 2) The door to his left (the one he chooses) does NOT reload the Matrix,
> > letting the bug continue. Trinity gets to live (for now), but the bug
> will
> > eventually destroy the Matrix, and everyone connected to the Matrix will
> > die. The machines will have to formulate alternatives to the
> bioelectricity
> > that the humans provide, as all of humanity will be dead.
> >
> > In other words, door #1 reloads the matrix, the unstable element (i.e. all
> > the people) in Zion is wiped out, but all the individuals get to go on
> > living (in their little dream worlds). Door #2 doesn't reload the matrix,
> > but the flaw will eventually bring down the Matrix itself, and everyone
> will
> > die who is connected to it.
> >
> > The reason that Keaneo has this choice (whereas the previous Neos did not)
> > is because the love of Trinity is a new factor. The past Neos who got to
> > this point with the Architect really had only one "choice", i.e., reload
> the
> > Matrix. There was no alternative after learning the truth about what Zion
> > was -- a place where the Oracle got all the troublemakers who could damage
> > and upset the balance of the Matrix to leave to. Because they were the
> ones
> > who felt like they needed to make a choice that wasn't provided to them,
> > they were encouraged to make the "choice" to leave the Matrix, which let
> > them feel like they'd accomplished something. But since the Oracle's true
> > motivations were to essentially quarantine the bug/flaw, it's a pretty
> > hollow victory for the Zionians. Either way, the previous Neos reloaded
> the
> > Matrix, and everyone goes on living in blissful ignorance, since the
> > alternative (letting the Matrix collapse, killing everyone) is far worse.
> >
> > Neo's love for Trinity, according to the Architect, has doomed the
> Matrix's
> > survival, as now, since the Matrix hasn't been rebooted, the unstable
> > element will end up killing everyone, including the Zionians.
> >
> > Ahhh... but why would the Zionites be obliterated just because they left
> the
> > Matrix? Well, that depends on your point of view. There are two possible
> > ways, as I see it, of interpretting the ending:
> >
> > 1) Keaneo's powers have somehow started to work on the "real world" (or at
> > least with regards to machines.)
> >
> > 2) Zion is either inside of the Matrix, or a separate Matrix, established
> by
> > the Oracle as a place for the mistakes, the people who realized life
> didn't
> > feel right, to THINK they've regained free will and choice. But, they
> > haven't -- they're still connected, just in a different bubble -- we've
> > never actually seen the "real" world.
> >
> > I'm not sure which scenario Matrix: Revolutions will reflect. Choice #1
> is
> > a more metaphysical, supernatural idea, whereas Choice #2 is more of a
> > "practical", computer-based idea. Either has it's own strengths and
> > weaknesses. Naturally, there are all sorts of other choices I haven't
> > covered, or some combination of the two, etc., but I think most of the
> clues
> > we've been given point to one of those, especially the bizarre penultimate
> > moment of the film where Keaneo's powers work OUTSIDE the Matrix (or, if
> > choice two is correct, a DIFFERENT part of the matrix, or a different
> > matrix.)
> >
> > We also have the clue that Agent Smith has somehow downloaded himself into
> > the "real world" (or, again, the part of the Matrix that the Zionists CALL
> > the real world). This is something that happened very quickly in the
> > beginning parts of the film, and we still don't quite know how it
> happened,
> > or to what extent it worked, etc. However, there seems to be quite a bit
> of
> > evidence to prove that Smith has entered the body of that crazy guy who
> > tries to kill Keaneo in Zion early on, and is the only one who
> "miraculously
> > survives" the machine's assault on the Zion fleet (and is the last person
> we
> > see before the credits roll). If this is agent Smith, who we know for a
> > fact to be a computer program (well, as much as these films let us know
> > anything "for a fact" hehe), then that seems to lend more support to the
> > second theory above, that Zion is a part of the Matrix, or a separate,
> > bug-holding Matrix, since it would be far more conceiveable for a program
> to
> > move from one "server" to another, than for a program to actually become
> > flesh and blood. Again, we don't know yet, but that's the fun part.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Anyone care to add to these observations, or refute them?
> >
> > John Addis
> > symphy at hotmail dot com
> >
> >
> >
Pat_In_Edmonton
> jmnugent wrote:
> .
> >
> > As for the theory's that Zion (the supposed "real world") is in fact just
> > another level of the Matrix or its own seperate Matrix.
> > I just dont buy it. I cant say why...it just doesnt feel write. It seems
> > they put alot of effort into the first movie making us understand the
> > difference between
> > the real world and the dream world.
> >
> >
> It works for me. I don't buy that Neo has developed magical powers
> that he can ply in the real world. Stopping bullets or sentinels with
> a wave of his hand has got to be part of a simulation.
>
>
> Moreover, I thought the Archetect was a bit too casual about allowing a
> Neo to choose whether the machines would survive at a "reduced level" as
> he called it. Why would he give Neo such a choice? I don't presume to
> understand machine psychology, but I don't think they'd want to shut
> most of themselves down at the whim of one of their "farm animals."
This is interesting. To use some of the film's jargon, change the
word "casual" in your paragraph above to "causal" and I think that
explains it. If it's a bug that has recurred at least some 5 or 6
times already in spite of his redesign efforts, then there's some
credibility to the idea that the architect lacks complete control over
the bug's (i.e. Neo's) behavior. The Architect's speech was
undoubtedly an attempt to influence Neo, leaving just the question of
whether or not the information the Architect provided was truthful. I
think not - his speech was disinformation-cum-virus, designed to
affect Neo's behavior *outide* of the "Matrix proper" more than in it.
Look at the deflating effect this news had on Morpheus, previously
unshakable in his faith and conviction. "I once had a dream, and now
that dream is gone..."
> I think it's all a trick. The Architect put Neo in another level of
> the simulation as soon as he flew through the door to save Trinity. I
> don't know what it is, but I'm sure the Architect has some ulterior
> motive for doing that.
>
>
> I just can't see the movie ending with the machines winning or with Neo
> and 7 other Adams fertilizing 14 Eves in a dank cave near the earth's
> core where it's still "warm."
>
>
> Consider this: The Architect is a fraud. He's not the Architect at
> all, but rather a security program designed to protect the mainframe
> from being attacked my Neo. Or maybe he just lied. And Neo fell for it.
>
Mike
> <snip>
> This also explains that Burly Brawl with the 100 Smiths. Smith wasn't
> trying to win. It was just the program playing out and eating up time,
> as it directed Neo to the decision/looping point with the Architect.
> As for why Neo would have "wasted" the time with that, well from
> his POV he was testing what obstacles/improvements he may be
> running up against. Of course the real reason was it makes for such
> a friggin' great video game to be Neo fighting your way through all
> the code and failsafe code so you can get out there, save the Real
> World, and if you've clicked the Hokey Mode Option wake up and
> see the sunrise on the surface with Trinity. :-)
I just go with the human reason for it - he doesn't like Smith. Smith
tried to kill him, don't forget. Why can't he just have animosity
towards the guy (err machine, err program, whatever)?
IF Neo can experience Love (Trinity), he can experience Hate (Smith).
--
Mike
Ebie
>The EMP was generated by the incoming hovercraft that picked up Neo,
>Morpheus, Link and Trinity. I don't know exactly why Neo fainted.
>
I thought so too for a second, but remember, the EMP disables the ship
that emits the pulse, as well as anything in its range. Since the ship
was still flying, it couldn't have sent the EMP.
--
"Thank god we're hot chicks with superpowers."
Zachary Black
> Tell me that's the case, and I'll go see it again. If only the Phantom
> Menace had been just a bad reboot....
>
LOL! How 'bout this:
"Do not try to watch the sequel. That's impossible. Instead, only try
to realize the truth ... there is no sequel. Hollywood has you."
Zachary Black
zbl...@zsculpt.com
Z Sculpt Entertainment
http://www.zsculpt.com
TommyK
the Zion Matrix) I got the distinct feeling of the StarTrek Next
Generation epsisode "Ship in a Bottle" where they make a holodeck in
the holodeck to fool some of the people some of the time.
I got this feeling of "still inside" about 10 minutes prior to Neos
"outside" control miracle. I hope I'm not correct.
One last thing. Tactically, if you have three ships you send one
person from each to each of the two locations. That way if a sentinal
kills a ship, you fight on with two out of three bodies. I know,
Trinity would not have had to go back in but it was an unexcusable
tactical error on the part of Fishburn to send shipmates as groups to
the power stations.
Pat_In_Edmonton
> I'd just like to add that I certainly hope that Neo doesn't have any kind of
> supernatural powers in the real world. I'm kind of confused as to why so many
> people would find having Zion be another layer of the matrix some awful cop out
> of writing. I'd argue that anything that would lead to Neo having superpowers
> outside of the matrix as the big cop out.
>
> What makes the whole premise of the matrix interesting to me is that it all can
> be explained in human terms. Neo is exceptional but nonetheless still human
> because it simply has to do with his ability to come to realizations and to
> think outside the box. In the regular world he's just a regular guy who is as
> vulnerable as anyone else to what the universe has to offer. It's only inside
> the matrix that he can get "supernatural" powers because he knows how to
> manimpulate the system.
>
> I'd be very disapointed if Neo ends up having some kind of supernatural powers
> in reality. It would be a trite and painfully overdone sci-fi theme. It would
> suck the humanity out of Neo and shift the story away from an issue of
> consciousness and make it into any typical comic book or anime story. It's too
> easy to explain things by saying, "Neo is the one and so he's got superpowers",
> instead the story so far is driven by revelations. First we come to realize
> that there is a matrix, then that we can manipulate it, but now Neo realizes
> that no one has actually left the matrix left. I'm looking forward his return
> to Zion and his discussions with Morpheus on this. Just imagine the horror
> everyone in Zion will have at learning this news, if they ever do learn about
> it. If they did then I'm sure plenty of people would get quite angry with Neo
> and not believe him.
I am starting to really wonder if The Wachowski's had any of this
written or even conceptualized before The Matrix became the huge hit
it was. Some of this feels like they are trying to write themselves
out of the corner they put themselves in in part I. Having said that,
they are doing a brilliant job, even if the result overwhelms the
remaining elements of the film and leaves it very plot-heavy. Nothing
new for a part-2-of-3 movie lately, however (witness the Two
Towers)...
I'm at the point where either option you wrote about feels like a
bail-out to me. If Neo is a human with super powers, then that's a
pretty easy answer. If Zion is not the REAL real world, then when do
the films ever deliver goods we can actually trust (i.e. will we ever
get to a real world)? For me, this potentially undermines the
credibility of the possible action in Revolutions, for example, Neo
realizes that the Zion world is not real either, there is another veil
they must pierce, etc. When does it stop? Others have already raised
these points much more capably than I have.
>
> So for the general flow of the movies I'd hope it comes out like this:
>
> The Matrix: There is a matrix!
> Matrix Reloaded: No one has left the matrix!
> Matrix Revolutions: What is the matrix?
>
> As for Smith. It seems to follow that if you can download skills such as kung
> fu and how to fly a helicopter then it wouldn't be hard for Smith to download
> part of his personality into the guy. I think the hand cutting scene is pretty
> signifigant. Smith hasn't completely taken over the fellow, the guy knows that
> there is another personality in him and he feels like he's going insane. The
> hand cutting is a typical psychological coping mechanism that people do to try
> and deal with mental illness.
I see a theme of synthesis emerging in Reloaded, synthesis between the
matrix and the real world (leaving aside for a time debate over
whether or not there is one - this discussion assumes there is). The
Oracle revealed that she is a program, yet one aware enough to pursue
a course of cooperation with humans as a means toward preservation.
Smith was 'entered' by Neo in the first film and apparently destroyed,
but returns unwired and able to replicate himself inside the Matrix,
and possibly able to make the leap into the real world by possessing
or infecting a human. Neo is fully human, but 'has the sight'
regarding the future inside the Matrix in addition to his other
extraordinary abilities there. At the close of Reloaded, we see that
he also has some of his matrix-like powers in (just go with it for
now) the real world.
For me it breaks down like kind of a continuum, with machine-ness at
one end and human-ness at the other. Neo started at the extreme human
end, and is incorporating more machine-ness as he moves toward the
middle. Ditto for Smith, who started as a sentient program, but who,
through is interaction with Neo, is gaining more human-like qualities,
such as his ability to operate unwired and replicate himself (i.e.
reproduce). Both are free-and-not-yet-free, and this synthesis aspect
nicely captures the connection between Smith and Neo for me.
There are a number of bits of dialogue in the film (most notably the
Councillor's discussion with Neo about machines and control) to
support the theme of connectedness between the machines and the
humans. I see the Councillor's speech and the Oracle's speech as
evidence that the Revolution in the matrix will involve some kind of
synthesis between human and machine, rather than the clear victory of
one over the other. Synthesis/cooperation for preservation.
I see the 'kiss me' scene between Neo and Persephone, and the scene
with the ugly-bad-human-guy-cutting-up-his-hand-before-attempting-to-assassinate-Neo
scene as extensions of or at least related to this theme of synthesis.
If Smith can "take over" people in the matrix and replicate himself
into them, perhaps in the real world he can propagate his virus via
exchange of bodily fluids. I can't accurately say which hand he was
cutting on vs. which hand he shook with Neo, but it seemed conspicuous
to me. Also, the kiss to me was highly suspect. Although nothing
came of it by the end of Reloaded, I was mistrustful of the close
contact as a means to propagate some kind of virus or other exchange
of information. At any rate, this idea of synthesis could support the
exchange of information in biological form in the real world in this
way, at least in my head. :)
If this theme is driving things in the way I think it may be, it could
mean that Neo-as-human has been altered by his experiences in the
Matrix on a fundamental level, just as Smith-as-program has been, in
the other direction. Both were deeply changed by the experience, as
Smith alluded to.
>
> Why is he unconscious at the end just as Neo? I'd suspect it has to do with
> his ability to survive. Perhaps in some way he used some Smith powers to avoid
> being killed by the Sentinels and the non Smith part of him couldn't cope with
> the realization and so both he and Neo collapsed at this sudden revolting
> insight that they never left the matrix, maybe even the Smith part of him is
> flipped out about that.
>
>
> ==
> remove the crap to email
TommyK
Matrix(es) to exist? When I dream, a 10 minute dream spans hours or
days of dream time.
If this is the 6th one, why does Neo 1 look like Neo 6? Whouldn't he
be different each time. If Neo 1 looks like Neo 6 then Neo 6 is Neo 1,
1 to 3 years later. (shakey ground).
If Zion is in the real world then how did Neo do what he did?
Answer, he didn't. There was a rescue ship along seconds later. That
ship is not going to just stroll up on a bunch of sentinals. It would
sneak up and EMP them. Neo could have felt them coming (hovercraft,
static electrisity), but the rescue ship did the sentinals in. If he
was close, he got a little EMP and scrambled his brain too.
Jordan Lund
> But now it all makes sense. The ridiculous plot elements of this movie
> are just another version of the matrix, and Zion isn't real. That would
> actually fit better with the first movie, because there Zion was never
> shown, and it was never clear to viewers that it was a real place or
> just another heaven.
It's sooo much better than that though... Not only is Zion not real,
Zion is there because it allows the "The Matrix" (or what we called
the Matrix as of the first film) to exist.
Think about it... One of the problems with the first version was that
it was too perfect. People kept trying to "wake up" from it. So they
created a newer version with death and taxes. Still they found some
people kept trying to peek behind the curtain so why not allow them to
"wake up" into a new reality that is, in fact, part of the Matrix.
Life is so harsh they'll have a hard enough time surviving to attempt
"waking up" and the brilliant part is allowing them to find other like
minded individuals in "The Matrix".
So what you end up with is a self culling slave race. Every now and
then you kill everyone in Zion, with the exception of a select few.
You remove any real threat to "The Matrix" and allow the more servile
minds to remain.
The thing of it is this though... If it's all an illusion, "The
Matrix", the Real World, Zion, everything... Then what's the real
purpose for being? There's got to be another upper level, but at that
point it may as well be an onion. How many layers until you get to the
"real" layer? Is there a "real" layer?
The multiple paths/levels was shown in explicit detail TWICE in
re-loaded. #1) After the burley brawl every Agent Smith has his own
reaction to the fight. #2) In the encounter with The Architect each
Neo has his own reaction to what is being said.
Is there a "Prime Reality"? I guess we'll see in the 3rd flick...
Unless the "Prime Reality" is just a bunch of people in a theater
watching the 3rd Matrix flick.
- Jordan
jba
> Why do we think that there needs to be hundreds of years for 6
> Matrix(es) to exist? When I dream, a 10 minute dream spans hours or
> days of dream time.
The difference is that dreams do not have the granularity that the
perceived reality of the matrix does. For people in the matrix, one
minute takes one minute to experience.
> If this is the 6th one, why does Neo 1 look like Neo 6? Whouldn't he
> be different each time. If Neo 1 looks like Neo 6 then Neo 6 is Neo 1,
> 1 to 3 years later. (shakey ground).
We don't know what Neo/One 1-5 looks like. The Neos you see behind Neo
when he is talking to the Architect are probably different possible
responses that the Architect sees. The clue is that the wall of Neos
all respond to the question regarding Trinity, which the other One's
wouldn't have.
> If Zion is in the real world then how did Neo do what he did?
> Answer, he didn't. There was a rescue ship along seconds later. That
> ship is not going to just stroll up on a bunch of sentinals. It would
> sneak up and EMP them. Neo could have felt them coming (hovercraft,
> static electrisity), but the rescue ship did the sentinals in. If he
> was close, he got a little EMP and scrambled his brain too.
That's a pretty weak theory. IIRC Neo actively tried to stop the
sentinels the way he did, and it would be a freak coincidence that a
rescue ship would've been there - without being heard - emp:ing at the
same instant and furthermore only knocking out Neo out of the Nebu crew.
Jordan Lund
> Anyone care to add to these observations, or refute them?
You've pretty much covered all what I was going to say, but I'd like
to add one bit...
There is the notion of multiple paths or threads in the 2nd film, but
you only see it twice. Usenet seems as good a place as any to bring
this up...
#1) After the Burley Brawl each Agent Smith has his own reaction to
the fight. Each one could have been a possible reaction for the "real"
Agent Smith, but it was expressed completely differently on each
clone.
#2) The same effect is seen with the multiple video images of Neo at
the end of the film. Each one reacting, in his own way, to the
information the Architect suppplies.
I'm not saying fully that I understand what this means (I've only seen
the movie 1 and 1/2 times... the first time some son of a bitch set
off a can of pepper spray half way through the movie), I'm just adding
it into the mix. I'm sure I'll have a more solid theory on the
multiple paths after I see it a second time.
- Jordan
Joseph S. Powell, III
chance!
Cypher used a can of bug spray inappropriately, thereby pissing off his boss
who then killed him.
To make sure Cypher wouldn't return, Christafahhh sawed off his head (that's
when he discovered that Cypher wore a wig, lol!).
Cypher's body was dumped in the river, and his head and hands were buried
seperately.
"Johnny Newsreader" <sym...@hotmaildotcom.spam> wrote in message
news:ba4a18$1erc$2...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> Ooooooohhhh you're right I hadn't thought of that. The Zion at the end of
> Reloaded is a construct, but the Zion at the beginning of Reloaded was the
> real one.
>
> This is getting very Existenz. Anyone see that one :) ?
>
> John
>
> "Jeff Adams" <e...@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:Aqexa.46127$VP.10...@twister.neo.rr.com...
> > > Anyone care to add to these observations, or refute them?
> > >
> > Just two things. One, didn't the architect say he failed twice before
> > creating the current matrix? Two, there is also one other possibility I
> can
> > think of to explain the end of the film. At the end Neo says "something
> is
> > different". What if Zion does exist in the real world, but at the end
of
> > the film they didn't really leave the Matrix and they were tricked
> somehow.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>
>
Lord Nerd on High
running around in the real world tossing off energy balls is fine by me.
raken
> "Johnny Newsreader" <symphySP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ba3pch$v8j$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
> > untwist the riddles and see if I can guess what Matrix: Revolutions is going
> > to reveal.
> >
> > Here's my take on the ending.
>
> I caught this post while trying to search for others discussing the
> "strange loop" (a la Godel Escher Bach) apparent in the film at the
> end. I also surmised that the "real world" was in fact not real but
> actually just another part of the martix where people are made to
> believe they've escaped.
>
> Many things come to mind, such as people not really existing at
> all--everyone's a program. It was suggested that Neo was programmed
> to do what he did, as a way for the Matrix to properly reboot when the
> effects of the bug inevitably reached a critical level.
>
> While I can see how someone outside of the matrix could have their
> brain rewired by whatever wires are in their brain that jack them in,
> I do agree that it's all the more plausible that the Agent Smith
> program just moved from one place to another.
>
> One thing that I noticed that bugged me: Just before Agent Smith
> infected that guy, the OTHER guy who jacked out was given a package to
> take back to Neo. He stuck it into his pocket then jacked out. How
> the heck would it be possible to move an OBJECT out of the Matrix?
> Now, given the "Zion is in the matrix" theory, then it certainly makes
> sense. But my big questions is WHY DIDN'T IT BOTHER THEM? Wouldn't
> the zionists realize that this shouldn't be possible?
>
> I have a feeling that the whole Matrix concept is a big mind screw by
> the writers... what we figure out from THIS movie will also be shown
> to be wrong by the next one. :)
Could the matrix only exsist in the mind of the 'One'? Could the
matrix be the subconscious of the 'One'?
Perhaps Neo is the architect?
Prime
> I like your synopsis here.....its well written, especially considering all
> that is to be absorbed by this new movie.
> Its a very "meaty" movie---alot to bend your mind around.
>
> Couple comments.....
>
> As for the theory's that Zion (the supposed "real world") is in fact just
> another level of the Matrix or its own seperate Matrix.
> I just dont buy it. I cant say why...it just doesnt feel write. It seems
> they put alot of effort into the first movie making us understand the
> difference between
> the real world and the dream world.
>
> and he has somehow figured out how to take over a real persons body.
> Interesting idea,...but once again it just doesnt feel write to me. On one
> hand--perhaps Smith figures he has a better chance of getting revenge on Neo
> in the real world
> where Neo's powers are non-existent (well--up until the end of the movie
> where we find out otherwise.)
>
> But is Smith the very first program to figure out how to take over someones
> body and jump over to the "real" world (assuming it is the real world)
> Personally...I'd be more easily convinced that Smith's motivations are that
> he wants to be more human and thats why he does it.
>
> Before I saw the movie--I read somewhere that the person on the table at the
> end was Cypher....but I'm guessing thats wrong since I dont see his actor
> name in the credits.
>
> And thats just a small tidbit off all the things to discuss in this
> movie....damn--what a great flick.....
>
> Just more proof of my belief-----there are those who like The Matrix...and
> those who dont understand it.
>
> jmnugent
I'm new around this newsgroup, but hopefully I can join the discussion
:)
Even after two viewings, I'm still wrapping my head around all this
new information. I've sort of worked backwards to come to my
conclusions. Please point out any flaws in my logic!
So, in the end we see Neo and crew running through the sewers to get
away from the sentinels. I believe he says, "something's different"
and that he can feel them. Then, of course, he zaps them or whatever.
First, what if this is the real (not matrix) world? From what I
gather, the plugs on the humans are to interface with the matrix. So
the input to the brain just comes from the matrix, not from the
senses. Similarly, output (actions, I guess) come from the brain and
are passed back through the interface. So connecting to the Matrix
only means that you now have an input/output connection ("electrical
signals interpreted by your brain"). The only control the Matrix has
on you is what input it gives you. It does not affect your brain in
the physical sense, like rewriting it or something.
If this is the case, I don't see how it is possible for Neo to have
superpowers outside the matrix. How would he get them? All Neo has
done is trained his brain to view the matrix in a certain way, and
respond accordingly. If he is really unplugged, there is no medium
for his thoughts to affect the real world (sentinels in this case).
This would still be the case if the matrix really could "rewrite"
something in your brain. Even if the brain thought certain things, it
has no ability to manufest these things through the limited
capabilities of the human body.
So I conclude that at the end, they are still in some sort of matrix,
possibly completely seperate from the matrix they know. Neo is has
just learned how to affect this second matrix as he did the first.
So if they are in a second matrix at the end of the movie, then they
must be at the beginning, since while the matrix could fool Neo and
all the pluggable people that they had gotten out, the operators like
Link would be unknown to the matrix, and so not simulated to convince
the pluggables that they had gotten out. So I suspect they aren't
just being fooled. Hope that part makes sense.
If this is the case, then Agent Smith has merely found out how to
transfer himself from the first matrix to the second. This seems much
more feasible to me, because how would he copy himself into someones
brain, "overwriting" that person's mind? But if everyone is still
plugged into a computer, then this copying would be possible.
I'd be interested on anyone's thoughts :)
Clint Jorgenson
> the original Star Wars, just before a big battle, they had a five minute slow
> motion disco dancing sequence?" I also thought it was funny that with
> all the high tech ships and really cool sunglasses (which they need
> in the dim light because.....?)the natives of zion don't have better
> gifts to give neo than the roots, shrubs and berries they offered. And
> what if in the sequal to Star Wars we had to cut to Harrison Ford
> on the other side of the galaxy, listening to his wife bitch about
> how long he's been away? Might slow things down a bit, no?
I thought the tribal dance scene in Zion was one of the great scenes
in the movie. It was the perfect representation of what makes life
different from machines. Real emotion. Getting sweaty and dirty and
jumping around for no reason. Sexual energy. Fear for the safety of
your loved one. Selfishness.
Sidenote: (Actually this blows another hole in the NEO is AI theory:
Why would AI fuck a human?)
And dont you think in a world dominated by machines electricity and
technology, literally covering the world, roots and berrys might just
be the most precious item you could give?
If you want to compare the Matrix trilogy to something I suggest Anime
stuff like Ghost in the Shell. Star Wars is cool, on a nostalgic
level, but its really not even in the same ballpark of sophistication.
...
Clint Jorgenson
Luke Kaven
> Thus spake joseph...@yahoo.ca (josephus):
>
> >interesting discussion so far.
> >
> >one thing that i noticed in the movie but haven't seen discussed so
> >far is the question as to why 'neo' looks the same in each iteration
> >of the matrix as seen in the video screens during the discussion with
> >the architect.
>
> Despite the posted transcript which points to some of the Neos saying
> "Fifth verion?" while another says "Three?", I don't think those
> representations of Neo are supposedly from previous iterations. There
> were a hell of a lot more than 5 or 6 images there.
>
> I didn't count all the various reactions, but I'm betting there were
> more than 6. And unofficial transcripts are notoriously unreliable --
> even earlier drafts might not be what was finally decided upon.
>
> Also, nobody said The One was Neo every iteration. "The One" is more
> of a function that a person can assume, rather than having to be a
> particular person.
>
[...]
> Two other possibilities:
>
> A) The Neos we saw were merely the Architect's simulation of what Neo
> *might* say and do.
>
> B) They were *all* current reactions of current Neos and the Matrix is
> actually a muliplex "quantum computer" sort of sim -- different
> *simultaneous* versions as well as different *sequential* versions.
>
> If B), Neo's probably not an actual human -- since we don't do so well
> with multiplex reality :) If A), he might be.
I thought that these might represent different possible worlds, in the
sense of Kripke and Lewis 'Possible Worlds Semantics'. In David
Lewis' philosophy, there are a plurality of worlds including this one,
but all exist simultaneously as "shadow worlds", and all are just as
real. [A number of philosophers take issue with this, but this was
the dogma at Princeton for the last 35-40 years.] In among those are
all the shades of possibility in every world in which Neo exists.
Note the fine shades of reactions displayed, all consistent with Neo.
Luke