English Patient Questions
Ilsa
Hello, I just saw this movie and would someone
please answer some questions while it's fresh in my mind:
1. Does the novel and movie operate on the same
time line? Some friends told me it took Almasy
about 3 years to finally get back to the Cave of
the Swimmers, but in the movie, Katherine looked
like she had just died recently. During the close-ups,
her skin and lips certainly did not look like that of
a dried up corpse.
2. What was the name of Bach piece Hana (Binoche)
was playing on the piano just before Kip came to tell her to
stop?
3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
said they were married except Almasy. Does that
mean Madox was another character who was committing
adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
Thank you for any replies. This was a wonderful movie even
though I thought that all the subplots did not mesh and
integrate evenly.
--Ilsa
Thomas Brenndorfer
Ilsa <sum...@cycor.ca> wrote in article
<3340268...@bignews.cycor.ca>...
> Hello, I just saw this movie and would someone
> please answer some questions while it's fresh in my mind:
>
> 1. Does the novel and movie operate on the same
> time line? Some friends told me it took Almasy
> about 3 years to finally get back to the Cave of
> the Swimmers, but in the movie, Katherine looked
> like she had just died recently. During the close-ups,
> her skin and lips certainly did not look like that of
> a dried up corpse.
While the novel clearly indicates over two years pass, the film leaves a
lot more wiggle room. Almasy makes the comment that he does not know which
army he may run into considering all of the traffic in the desert. That was
in 1939, just as he left Katherine in the cave. In the interim, he has to
escape from the British, pick up his maps in Cairo, make contact with the
German spies, and deliver the goods before he can be transported back to
the plane that had been packed away for emergency use (the Cave of the
Swimmers is near the Egyptian-Libyan border -- a very difficult spot to
reach).
All told, the timeline is wide open for interpretation. Actually, when I
saw Katherine's body, I was thinking that what was on the screen was an
idealized memory Almasy was having while lying in Italy. These shots, and
the subsequent plane flying over the desert dunes look the most stylized in
the film, as if the most important thing were the symbols and emotions
being portrayed, rather than a straightforward depiction of the characters'
activities.
>
> 2. What was the name of Bach piece Hana (Binoche)
> was playing on the piano just before Kip came to tell her to
> stop?
Aria from The Goldberg Variations.
>
> 3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
> where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
> said they were married except Almasy. Does that
> mean Madox was another character who was committing
> adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
> homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
>
No, Madox has a wife in England. The discussion was about "absent wives",
where Clifton, who brought his wife, and Almasy, who has none, stand out in
contrast. Elsewhere, there were some subtle hints of one the explorers
being attracted to an Arab boy who accompanies them (these were the two
that caused the truck accident; also, the man cradles the boy's head after
he bumps it in the Cave of the Swimmers). In the novel, one of the
explorers is a pedophile.
Tom Brenndorfer
tho...@msn.com
GRACE LIN
My guess about Katherine's body is that since it is in the cave and in
the desert, the lack of moisture prevents or slows down decay.
--
Thomas Brenndorfer
GRACE LIN <li...@nevada.edu> wrote in article
<5hsrhl$q...@news.nevada.edu>...
>
> My guess about Katherine's body is that since it is in the cave and in
> the desert, the lack of moisture prevents or slows down decay.
>
> --
The more I think about the lines in the film, the more I'm convinced the
filmmakers changed the chronology of the novel.
At the seaside hospital, Almasy says "They found me in the wreckage of a
plane at the beginning of the war".
He does not say "middle", which is what the year 1942 would be. And, if the
film was following the novel, he would definitely know the difference
between beginning and middle since he made a lot of efforts to help the
German spies prior to their military actions in North Africa. Ondaatje's
account does take a lot more from the historical Almasy than the film does,
which is even more removed from actual history (which is not a bad thing
per se, as long as the film is internally consistent, and the poetic
license does not take away from the main point of the film).
The other line by Almasy is also important, the line made in 1939 about
there being a lot of "traffic in the desert lately", with various armies.
That would definitely set things up for a short time span between his
capture and his return to the cave. (Also, his rescue by the nomads is also
easily accounted for since they were the ones who likely gave him
directions to find the cave in the first place a few years earlier. The
nomads seemed to be only a few days away from the Cave at the
Libyan-Egyptian border.)
The preservation of Katherine's body may have something to do with the
extreme cold in the cave. Also, when Almasy carries her body outside, he
had spread saffron (from the thimble necklace) over her face to add color.
In the novel, she is caked in pigments that seem to be everywhere in the
cave.
Tom Brenndorfer
tho...@msn.com
Maggie R
>3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
>where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
>said they were married except Almasy. Does that
>mean Madox was another character who was committing
>adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
>homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
It wasn't Madox but one of the other explorers who was the implied
homosexual. This is only important because Madox was held up as being a
highly moral man who questions Almasy and Katherine's betrayal of
Clifton (talking about Anna Karenina) and then ends up taking his own
life when he can't accept the possibility that his best friend was a
spy. Personal loyalties being paramount is essentially the only defining
characteristic we are given for this character. Therefore Madox
developing an extramarital relationship with a man (or a woman for that
matter) would detract from the significance of this character.
mags
Peter Suciu
>He does not say "middle", which is what the year 1942 would be. And, if the
>film was following the novel, he would definitely know the difference
>between beginning and middle since he made a lot of efforts to help the
>German spies prior to their military actions in North Africa.
Except, keep in mind that the desert war did not begin until mid-way through 1940. see below
>The other line by Almasy is also important, the line made in 1939 about
>there being a lot of "traffic in the desert lately", with various armies.
I don't know which armies he was talking about in 1939. There was no war in the desert in 1939. Italy only declared
war on England in June of 1940. And I don't think the Indiana Jones Nazis were in North Africa.
The Afrika Korp under Rommel only showed up after Italy invaded Egypt and was defeated. Hitler had to send Rommel to
North Africa to help with the situation there. Most of the desert war was from late 1940-42. The US landed in North
Africa in late '42 and then in Sicily in '43.
So I assume that early in the war (from his point of view) would/could be early 1942.
Ilsa
Hello, I just saw this movie and would someone
please answer some questions while it's fresh in my mind:
1. Does the novel and movie operate on the same
time line? Some friends told me it took Almasy
about 3 years to finally get back to the Cave of
the Swimmers, but in the movie, Katherine looked
like she had just died recently. During the close-ups,
her skin and lips certainly did not look like that of
a dried up corpse.
2. What was the name of Bach piece Hana (Binoche)
was playing on the piano just before Kip came to tell her to
stop?
3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
said they were married except Almasy. Does that
mean Madox was another character who was committing
adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
Thank you for any replies. This was a wonderful movie even
MozartK201
>>3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
>>where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
>>said they were married except Almasy. Does that
>>mean Madox was another character who was committing
>>adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
>>homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
>It wasn't Madox but one of the other explorers who was the implied
>homosexual. This is only important because Madox was held up as being a
>highly moral man who questions Almasy and Katherine's betrayal of
>Clifton (talking about Anna Karenina) and then ends up taking his own
>life when he can't accept the possibility that his best friend was a
>spy. Personal loyalties being paramount is essentially the only defining
>characteristic we are given for this character. Therefore Madox
>developing an extramarital relationship with a man (or a woman for that
>matter) would detract from the significance of this character.
>mags
It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
Arab man. And he remarks to Almasy how strange it is that out in the
desert things seemed good and right that "back home" would be absolutely
unthinkable. That he is a very honorable man (demonstrated by his not
being able to live with the idea that his maps and his friend were
instrumental in the deaths of so many allied soldiers) highlights the fact
that it isn't only loose and weak and unreputable people that behave in
destructive and immoral ways so far from home, in such an alien
environment. It's an important moment; I think we're meant to apply that
idea to Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
Trudi Marrapodi
In article <19970403195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mozar...@aol.com (MozartK201) wrote:
[snip]
> It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
> fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
> Arab man.
Well, no, it wasn't, it was a man named Bermann.
> And he remarks to Almasy how strange it is that out in the
> desert things seemed good and right that "back home" would be absolutely
> unthinkable.
This is true, and it's a large part of foreshadowing what Almasy and
Katharine are going to end up doing. Previously, it was unthinkable to
Almasy to give his heart away or want to own anyone; previously, it was
unthinkable to Katharine to betray her husband. But in the desert, these
things will happen.
> That he is a very honorable man (demonstrated by his not
> being able to live with the idea that his maps and his friend were
> instrumental in the deaths of so many allied soldiers) highlights the fact
> that it isn't only loose and weak and unreputable people that behave in
> destructive and immoral ways so far from home, in such an alien
> environment.
Well, here you're talking about Madox, and this is true. Actually, Madox
is one of the "pure" characters in this film; he's the one with all the
high ideals, he's the one who's never been unfaithful to his wife back
home and would never dream of it. His tragedy is that he can't live with
the knowledge that everyone can't be or isn't as good and pure as he is.
In a sense, Madox is "too good for this world." He's sort of a parallel to
Kip's Sgt. Hardy, who unlike other British men didn't stereotype Kip for
being Indian, and was a true friend to him, if a somewhat distant one.
> It's an important moment; I think we're meant to apply that
> idea to Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
Exactly. Like I said above. The scene in which Bermann's lover hits his
head in the cave and Bermann inspects his head with concern is also there
as a parallel to the scene in which Katharine, taking leave of Almasy,
hits her head on a pole (which is in the book, too, in a slightly altered
form--Bermann and his gay relationship aren't). It's a contrast to the
other scene--Almasy wants to go to her and make sure she's all right, but
he can't , because she's detaching herself from him. She wants him to
express concern for her, but she can't ask for it, because she's just
given him the brush-off. So she just winces and holds her head and walks
away, and the pain they both feel at this is much more than physical.
Trudi
www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net
Previous spamproofing unsuccessful--take two! To mail me, get rid 'o "getridodispart"...
Te-Ming Peng
mozar...@aol.com (MozartK201) wrote:
>It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
>fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
>Arab man. And he remarks to Almasy how strange it is that out in the
>desert things seemed good and right that "back home" would be absolutely
>unthinkable. That he is a very honorable man (demonstrated by his not
>being able to live with the idea that his maps and his friend were
>instrumental in the deaths of so many allied soldiers) highlights the fact
>that it isn't only loose and weak and unreputable people that behave in
>destructive and immoral ways so far from home, in such an alien
>environment. It's an important moment; I think we're meant to apply that
>idea to Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
Well, Mozart, I can *swear* to you that it was not Madox :). What you
were refering to is another member of the team. After the car
accident, Almasy told Madox something about replenishing the damaged
equipments when Madox was in the driver's seat and prepared to leave
for help. Madox then called the name of the member who was saying
good-bye to the young Arab affectionately. They are different
persons. Therefore your subsequent explanation that "Madox's" gay
romance in the desert are meant to shed moral implication to the love
affair between Almasy and Katharine is also incorrect.
Te-Ming Peng
www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
[deleted]
>This is true, and it's a large part of foreshadowing what Almasy and
>Katharine are going to end up doing. Previously, it was unthinkable to
>Almasy to give his heart away or want to own anyone; previously, it was
>unthinkable to Katharine to betray her husband. But in the desert, these
>things will happen.
I don't think the gay romance is meant to explain why Almasy and
Katharine would have love affair in the desert. Love itself is a
mystery and does not necessarily need to search for the first
principle to account for why they would be together, whether it is in
the desert or not. The gay romance in the film was designed to give
implication of the love transcending sex, race, and religion
differences.
There are 5 romances in this film, major or minor (including Hardy's).
All were different races or with different nationalities. While the
obvious plot is about two romantic love stories, the main themes of
TEP is about boundless country and boudless love across the nation
border. The director threw a lot of nationality issue in this film
with dialogues, images, and even the song Szerelem, Szerelem (a seemly
Arabian song, but in fact a Hungarian one). Romantic love in this
film also serves a function to represent human loves since romance is
the basic form of human relationship. Through Katharine's final
words, the director told us:
"That's all I've wanted--to walk in such a place with you, with
friends, an earth with map."
>Well, here you're talking about Madox, and this is true. Actually, Madox
>is one of the "pure" characters in this film; he's the one with all the
>high ideals, he's the one who's never been unfaithful to his wife back
>home and would never dream of it. His tragedy is that he can't live with
>the knowledge that everyone can't be or isn't as good and pure as he is.
>In a sense, Madox is "too good for this world." He's sort of a parallel to
>Kip's Sgt. Hardy, who unlike other British men didn't stereotype Kip for
>being Indian, and was a true friend to him, if a somewhat distant one.
All the main characters in this film had struggles or conflicts
between belief and inner feeling of different kind. In the case of
Madox, he is the one who also believed in boundless country (in the
dialogue between him and Almasy) but nevertheless put his mother
country England first unconsciously (in the library scene) since he
was born British. It eventually lead to his own ultimate tragedy when
he learned that his best friend Almasy gave the maps to the German.
If Madox was not a British, his suicide would be impossible.
Michalle S Gould
MozartK201 (mozar...@aol.com) wrote:
: >>3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
: >>where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
: >>said they were married except Almasy. Does that
: >>mean Madox was another character who was committing
: >>adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
: >>homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
:
: >It wasn't Madox but one of the other explorers who was the implied
: >homosexual. This is only important because Madox was held up as being a
: >highly moral man who questions Almasy and Katherine's betrayal of
: >Clifton (talking about Anna Karenina) and then ends up taking his own
: >life when he can't accept the possibility that his best friend was a
: >spy. Personal loyalties being paramount is essentially the only defining
: >characteristic we are given for this character. Therefore Madox
: >developing an extramarital relationship with a man (or a woman for that
: >matter) would detract from the significance of this character.
:
: >mags
: It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
: fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
: Arab man. And he remarks to Almasy how strange it is that out in the
: desert things seemed good and right that "back home" would be absolutely
: unthinkable. That he is a very honorable man (demonstrated by his not
: being able to live with the idea that his maps and his friend were
: instrumental in the deaths of so many allied soldiers) highlights the fact
: that it isn't only loose and weak and unreputable people that behave in
: destructive and immoral ways so far from home, in such an alien
: environment. It's an important moment; I think we're meant to apply that
: idea to Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
No it WASNT Madox, and I have the screenplay, so I should know. It was
Bermann. The young Arab man's name was Kamal.
Michalle
Thomas Brenndorfer
Peter Suciu <pe...@connors.com> wrote in article
<3343c6fc...@news.spacelab.net>...
> >He does not say "middle", which is what the year 1942 would be. And, if
the
> >film was following the novel, he would definitely know the difference
> >between beginning and middle since he made a lot of efforts to help the
> >German spies prior to their military actions in North Africa.
>
> Except, keep in mind that the desert war did not begin until mid-way
through 1940. see below
>
>
> >The other line by Almasy is also important, the line made in 1939 about
> >there being a lot of "traffic in the desert lately", with various
armies.
>
> I don't know which armies he was talking about in 1939. There was no war
in the desert in 1939. Italy only declared
> war on England in June of 1940. And I don't think the Indiana Jones
Nazis were in North Africa.
>
Perhaps what I'm thinking of are "armed operatives" and not armies. My WWII
history is a bit rusty (I read tons when I was young, but most seems to
have quietly slipped away).
Whether or not such operatives actually existed, the basic fictions in the
film don't seem to weight against the general historical framework. But
within the simpler narrative structure of the film, most of the evidence
seems to point to a short time frame (a few months perhaps) between the
time Almasy leaves the cave and then returns to it.
Who controlled Libya during the 1940s, as this seems to be where Almasy was
shot down? I have the feeling his intended destination was eventually
England, as he kept muttering about seeing Katherine's garden by the sea,
the place where she wanted to be buried.
Tom Brenndorfer
tho...@msn.com
Te-Ming Peng
"Thomas Brenndorfer" <tho...@msn.com> wrote:
>Who controlled Libya during the 1940s, as this seems to be where Almasy was
>shot down? I have the feeling his intended destination was eventually
>England, as he kept muttering about seeing Katherine's garden by the sea,
>the place where she wanted to be buried.
When Almasy was questioned by the officer (presumbly a British), he
said something like "plunging into the sea". It seems to me that the
film described Almasy as Icarus in Greek mythology. Icarus flied with
feathers attached with candle wax to escape from the labyrinth, along
with his father. He ignored his father's warning and flied toward to
the sun. The sun melted down the wax, the feather wings burned into
flames, and Icarus plunged into the sea.
wal...@dnvn.com
In article <334404...@Biggs-Gilmore.com>, Maggie R
<mag...@Biggs-Gilmore.com> wrote:
> >3. I'm not sure if Madox was there or not, but there was a scene
> >where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
> >said they were married except Almasy. Does that
> >mean Madox was another character who was committing
> >adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
> >homosexual but I don't know if he was married.
>
> It wasn't Madox but one of the other explorers who was the implied
> homosexual. This is only important because Madox was held up as being a
> highly moral man who questions Almasy and Katherine's betrayal of
> Clifton (talking about Anna Karenina) and then ends up taking his own
> life when he can't accept the possibility that his best friend was a
> spy. Personal loyalties being paramount is essentially the only defining
> characteristic we are given for this character. Therefore Madox
> developing an extramarital relationship with a man (or a woman for that
> matter) would detract from the significance of this character.
>
> mags
Maddox's homosexuality was clear in the film. This of course had
nothing to do with whether he was married or not -- although I
guess it does make him an adulterer. His homosexuality was impossible
to miss.
His disappointment in Almasy was probably tinged with his attraction
to Almasy -- clearly he was more concerned about his work as a spy than
his behavior as an adulterer. The adultery was offensive to Maddox
because it involved betrayal of another man in the group to whom Maddox felt
loyalty. If it had been to some distant unknown person, Maddox would
probably not have cared.
k
Thomas Brenndorfer
Te-Ming Peng <tem...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<5i32pv$h...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
That's quite probably the intended allusion, although it is also clear from
the conservation that Almasy is referring to the sea by Katherine's garden
(the officer asks if it his garden and Almasy replies it could be his
wife's).
The structure of these scenes seem to wind around the images of the sun at
the end (and elsewhere in the film). And it is quite probable that Almasy
was buried in the orchard -- both the sun and the garden representing a
closure to the story.
Tom Brenndorfer
tho...@msn.com
MozartK201
From: tem...@u.washington.edu (Te-Ming Peng)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 01:35:28 GMT
Message-ID: <5i1lfd$4...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>
tem...@u.washington.edu wrote
>mozar...@aol.com (MozartK201) wrote:
>>It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
>>fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
>>Arab man. And he remarks to Almasy how strange it is that out in the
>>desert things seemed good and right that "back home" would be absolutely
>>unthinkable. That he is a very honorable man (demonstrated by his not
>>being able to live with the idea that his maps and his friend were
>>instrumental in the deaths of so many allied soldiers) highlights the
fact
>>that it isn't only loose and weak and unreputable people that behave in
>>destructive and immoral ways so far from home, in such an alien
>>environment. It's an important moment; I think we're meant to apply that
>>idea to Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
>Well, Mozart, I can *swear* to you that it was not Madox :). What you
>were refering to is another member of the team. After the car
>accident, Almasy told Madox something about replenishing the damaged
>equipments when Madox was in the driver's seat and prepared to leave
>for help. Madox then called the name of the member who was saying
>good-bye to the young Arab affectionately. They are different
>persons. Therefore your subsequent explanation that "Madox's" gay
>romance in the desert are meant to shed moral implication to the love
>affair between Almasy and Katharine is also incorrect.
Ok, so it wasn't Madox. But I still think it does have a point to make
about Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
Trudi Marrapodi
In article <5i1qsi$6...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>, tem...@u.washington.edu
(Te-Ming Peng) wrote:
> www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>
> [deleted]
>
> >This is true, and it's a large part of foreshadowing what Almasy and
> >Katharine are going to end up doing. Previously, it was unthinkable to
> >Almasy to give his heart away or want to own anyone; previously, it was
> >unthinkable to Katharine to betray her husband. But in the desert, these
> >things will happen.
>
> I don't think the gay romance is meant to explain why Almasy and
> Katharine would have love affair in the desert. Love itself is a
> mystery and does not necessarily need to search for the first
> principle to account for why they would be together, whether it is in
> the desert or not.
I'm not saying that Almasy and Katharine had their affair *because*
Bermann set an example for them with his gay relationship. What I'm saying
is that the desert represents, in this film, a place without boundaries
and a place where "anything goes" and people listen to their hearts rather
than to convention. It could be a house in the country, it could be a city
where a person's family doesn't live, it could be the Antarctic--in this
case, it just happens to be the desert being used as the backdrop.
> it The gay romance in the film was designed to give
> implication of the love transcending sex, race, and religion
> differences.
Yes, but I think it does double duty as foreshadowing. When we see that
Almasy's reaction to learning about Bermann's relationship is not the kind
a typical man in the 1930s would probably have (namely revulsion), we
learn something important about him. This is not a man of convention. He's
a man who doesn't seem to believe that people should only fall in love
with "proper" or "socially acceptable" or "correct according to some
externally imposed moral precept" partners. He learns about this gay
relationship and doesn't flinch, cringe or appear to be making mental
notes not to bend over in the shower when Bermann is nearby. He simply
accepts. This implies that there's a part of Almasy that isn't as stiff
and reserved and unreachable as he initially looks in the film. And THAT
is a clue that when it comes to his own relationships, he's vulnerable to
"falling in love with the 'wrong' person" himself.
> There are 5 romances in this film, major or minor (including Hardy's).
> All were different races or with different nationalities. While the
> obvious plot is about two romantic love stories, the main themes of
> TEP is about boundless country and boudless love across the nation
> border.
I am glad you are one of the people who sees that. Too many have dismissed
it as a "bodice-ripper romance." (sniff)
> The director threw a lot of nationality issue in this film
> with dialogues, images, and even the song Szerelem, Szerelem (a seemly
> Arabian song, but in fact a Hungarian one). Romantic love in this
> film also serves a function to represent human loves since romance is
> the basic form of human relationship. Through Katharine's final
> words, the director told us:
>
> "That's all I've wanted--to walk in such a place with you, with
> friends, an earth with map."
I think that's "without maps."
> >Well, here you're talking about Madox, and this is true. Actually, Madox
> >is one of the "pure" characters in this film; he's the one with all the
> >high ideals, he's the one who's never been unfaithful to his wife back
> >home and would never dream of it. His tragedy is that he can't live with
> >the knowledge that everyone can't be or isn't as good and pure as he is.
> >In a sense, Madox is "too good for this world." He's sort of a parallel to
> >Kip's Sgt. Hardy, who unlike other British men didn't stereotype Kip for
> >being Indian, and was a true friend to him, if a somewhat distant one.
>
> All the main characters in this film had struggles or conflicts
> between belief and inner feeling of different kind. In the case of
> Madox, he is the one who also believed in boundless country (in the
> dialogue between him and Almasy) but nevertheless put his mother
> country England first unconsciously (in the library scene) since he
> was born British. It eventually lead to his own ultimate tragedy when
> he learned that his best friend Almasy gave the maps to the German.
> If Madox was not a British, his suicide would be impossible.
I think you have a very good point here. Madox couldn't resolve this inner
conflict. He was the one who said "It was never about countries, was it?"
to Almasy, yet when Almasy hands the maps over to the Germans, suddenly
it's "about countries," all right.
Ralph and Teresa Dunkin
Trudi Marrapodi <www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net> wrote in article
<wwwords-0304...@usr9-82.dial.roc.frontiernet.net>...
> > It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't swear to this, but I'm
> > fairly sure it WAS Madox who was having the relationship with the young
> > Arab man.
>
> Well, no, it wasn't, it was a man named Bermann.
>
Glad to see the clarification of this point. The first time I saw TEP, I
was sure that it was Madox who was having the relationship with the young
Arab man. When I saw it the second time, I realized it was a different
person - an older man, but one who did bear a resemblance to Madox.
Teresa
Dun...@pipeline.com
Te-Ming Peng
"Thomas Brenndorfer" <tho...@msn.com> wrote:
>That's quite probably the intended allusion, although it is also clear from
>the conservation that Almasy is referring to the sea by Katherine's garden
>(the officer asks if it his garden and Almasy replies it could be his
>wife's).
Or the analogy applies to both Almasy and Katharine.
O.K., I cheated a little bit. I also based on the footages not shown
in the film to make that judgement relating to the mythology of
Icarus. One is the "openning scene" of the movie trailer. It shows a
biplane flying toward the sun. Another is based on what a netter had
said in the forum that there was a scene on Almasy's getting out of
the plane with fire all around him when falling down from the sky (it
could be similar to what the book described although the causes of the
plane bursting into fire are different). Together with the notion of
"plunging into the sea", it is very much like what Icarus had
experienced.
In any case, if you accept that mythological analogy, the credits is
yours. A couple of weeks ago, you had mentioned Almasy as a tragic
hero. Since then I started thinking which specific Greek gods or
heros can describe what Almasy and Hana had experienced as I myself
believed they are the lead characters.
>The structure of these scenes seem to wind around the images of the sun at
>the end (and elsewhere in the film). And it is quite probable that Almasy
>was buried in the orchard -- both the sun and the garden representing a
>closure to the story.
I agree your observation.
Craig
>
>
>2. What was the name of Bach piece Hana (Binoche)
>was playing on the piano just before Kip came to tell her to
>stop?
>
Bach's famous "Goldberg Variations".
Te-Ming Peng
mozar...@aol.com (MozartK201) wrote:
>Ok, so it wasn't Madox. But I still think it does have a point to make
>about Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
Well, of course different explanations can exist. But I don't think
that it is that simple for this film giving us moral or immoral
implications. Besides, what I felt from the dialogue between that
member and Almasy was that the member was in a state of mixed
feelings--happy but uneasy for fear that it didn't conform to the
social norm from other people's point of view and was essentially
asking for Almasy's understanding.
Te-Ming Peng
www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>I'm not saying that Almasy and Katharine had their affair *because*
>Bermann set an example for them with his gay relationship. What I'm saying
>is that the desert represents, in this film, a place without boundaries
>and a place where "anything goes" and people listen to their hearts rather
>than to convention. It could be a house in the country, it could be a city
>where a person's family doesn't live, it could be the Antarctic--in this
>case, it just happens to be the desert being used as the backdrop.
Personally I would agree another netter's notion that he transformed
his love to the desert to Katharine especially if we regard the desert
dunes as the symbol of woman's body in the film.
In view of this, Katharine was a mystery, and perhaps infinity, to
him. At first he would rather follow her and "take note" on her in
Herodotus, but resisted her paintings and invitation. Then Katharine
did a "open heart surgery" on him by walking into his room :). After
that it was a road of no return.
>Yes, but I think it does double duty as foreshadowing. When we see that
>Almasy's reaction to learning about Bermann's relationship is not the kind
>a typical man in the 1930s would probably have (namely revulsion), we
>learn something important about him. This is not a man of convention. He's
>a man who doesn't seem to believe that people should only fall in love
>with "proper" or "socially acceptable" or "correct according to some
>externally imposed moral precept" partners. He learns about this gay
>relationship and doesn't flinch, cringe or appear to be making mental
>notes not to bend over in the shower when Bermann is nearby. He simply
>accepts.
Yes, I agree this. What I felt from the dialogue between Almasy and
Berman is that Almasy can understand him. ... Almasy is unique.
Maybe this is also one of the reasons why Katharine was drawn to him
(she had asked him why he would walk out his "castle" to the desert).
>This implies that there's a part of Almasy that isn't as stiff
>and reserved and unreachable as he initially looks in the film. And THAT
>is a clue that when it comes to his own relationships, he's vulnerable to
>"falling in love with the 'wrong' person" himself.
I think his achetype is that he is an individualistic, self-sustained,
and emotion-restrained person. But he is still a human being having
some sort of "weakness" especially when confronting to the bigger
environment. He challenged his fate and pursued the infinity
undauntingly and was hammered.
>I am glad you are one of the people who sees that. Too many have dismissed
>it as a "bodice-ripper romance." (sniff)
Yeah, I counted the number of romances in the theater :). ... Well,
have they ever seen a guy rip off a woman's clothes and sew it back in
other movies before? :) I quite enjoyed this film even if I just look
at the romantic stories and plots.
>> "That's all I've wanted--to walk in such a place with you, with
>> friends, an earth with map."
>I think that's "without maps."
Yeah, I made a mistake when typing it.
>I think you have a very good point here. Madox couldn't resolve this inner
>conflict. He was the one who said "It was never about countries, was it?"
>to Almasy, yet when Almasy hands the maps over to the Germans, suddenly
>it's "about countries," all right.
Yes, it is quite true. In ordinary time we can have various beliefs.
But it is when the major events hit us (or we hit the events for that
matter), the potential inner conflict immediately floats up to the
surface.
Javier Franco
--
Almasy is meant to represent Lucifer. There is an essay on the English
Patient by Stephen Scobie called "The Reading Lesson: Michael Ondaatje
and the Patients of Desire" in which Almasy is described as the fallen
angel. While reading the novel there are a lot of references to him
falling burning from the sky, I even think that he describes himself as
a demon.
Here is an excerpt from the essay:
"This image, of a burning man falling into the desert, has all kinds of
symbolic or mythological resonances (Lucifer, for instance, falling into
hell-and the third page of Ondaatje's novel does cite the Miltonic
phrase "the war in heaven", but it also poses obvious questions of
narrative. "I didn't know who he was," Ondaatje cofesses, so the
business of the novel becomes the telling of a story to explain who he
was. How did he get there? Why was he burning? What happned next?"
Trainspotting at home
: No it WASNT Madox, and I have the screenplay, so I should know. It was
: Bermann. The young Arab man's name was Kamal.
: Michalle
ok, i'm sure the original poster got the point! i have to admit that the
first time i saw the movie (which i had been anticipating for months) i
thought that madox was the one with feelings for kamal. i guess it's
because they look somewhat alike. when i read the book afterward and saw
the movie again it was cleared up.
Vix
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I love the time in between the calm inside me in the space where I can
breathe. I believe there is a distance I have wandered to touch upon the
years of reaching out and reaching in, holding out holding in. I believe
this is heaven to no one else but me and I'll defend it as long as I can
be left here to linger in silence. If I choose to would you try to
understand?" -- Sarah McLachlan
Trudi Marrapodi
In article <5i4e6p$4...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>, tem...@u.washington.edu
(Te-Ming Peng) wrote:
> mozar...@aol.com (MozartK201) wrote:
>
> >Ok, so it wasn't Madox. But I still think it does have a point to make
> >about Almasy's and Katherine's affair.
>
> Well, of course different explanations can exist. But I don't think
> that it is that simple for this film giving us moral or immoral
> implications.
I don't think it is either--but it is about people's sense of morality and
how it affects their actions. Madox is driven by a highly traditional set
of morals, more external. Almasy and Katharine are driven by a highly
personal set, more internal.
> Besides, what I felt from the dialogue between that
> member and Almasy was that the member was in a state of mixed
> feelings--happy but uneasy for fear that it didn't conform to the
> social norm from other people's point of view and was essentially
> asking for Almasy's understanding.
I believe he was. And when he got it, that was a sign to us that Almasy
was not a person who was driven by a highly traditional set of externally
imposed morals. If he had been, he would have cringed. "You two guys
are...you're....you're...UGH! Get away from me, you faggots!" Bermann
seemed to trust Almasy not to have this reaction to begin with--otherwise,
why feed his lover orange wedges in such an obviously affectionate way in
Almasy's presence? All he seemed to be doing when he spoke about it to
Almasy was saying, "Some other people wouldn't understand this, would
they? But I think you do."
Trudi Marrapodi
In article <5i5su7$g...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>, tem...@u.washington.edu
(Te-Ming Peng) wrote:
> www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>
> >I'm not saying that Almasy and Katharine had their affair *because*
> >Bermann set an example for them with his gay relationship. What I'm saying
> >is that the desert represents, in this film, a place without boundaries
> >and a place where "anything goes" and people listen to their hearts rather
> >than to convention. It could be a house in the country, it could be a city
> >where a person's family doesn't live, it could be the Antarctic--in this
> >case, it just happens to be the desert being used as the backdrop.
>
> Personally I would agree another netter's notion that he transformed
> his love to the desert to Katharine especially if we regard the desert
> dunes as the symbol of woman's body in the film.
I do think that in this case, the backdrop of the desert was used as
another love object, and it's obvious that many comparisons are made
throughout the film to the landscape of the desert and the female body.
> In view of this, Katharine was a mystery, and perhaps infinity, to
> him. At first he would rather follow her and "take note" on her in
> Herodotus, but resisted her paintings and invitation. Then Katharine
> did a "open heart surgery" on him by walking into his room :). After
> that it was a road of no return.
Yes. People like that truly exist and it amazes me that some people found
Almasy to be so "cold" and unconvincing or Fiennes to have portrayed him
so poorly. I think he did excellently because he had to portray this man
who was so reserved that this falling in love was out of character for
him.
> >Yes, but I think it does double duty as foreshadowing. When we see that
> >Almasy's reaction to learning about Bermann's relationship is not the kind
> >a typical man in the 1930s would probably have (namely revulsion), we
> >learn something important about him. This is not a man of convention. He's
> >a man who doesn't seem to believe that people should only fall in love
> >with "proper" or "socially acceptable" or "correct according to some
> >externally imposed moral precept" partners. He learns about this gay
> >relationship and doesn't flinch, cringe or appear to be making mental
> >notes not to bend over in the shower when Bermann is nearby. He simply
> >accepts.
>
> Yes, I agree this. What I felt from the dialogue between Almasy and
> Berman is that Almasy can understand him. ... Almasy is unique.
> Maybe this is also one of the reasons why Katharine was drawn to him
> (she had asked him why he would walk out his "castle" to the desert).
Yes. Almasy is a uniquely individual person who understands and accepts
things other people would not...and Katharine is indeed fascinated by what
would make someone like this (to her at the time) stodgy but disturbingly
attractive-against-her-will man take to the desert. And at that point, she
can't even get him to say why; he brushes her off with the story
illustrating that to him a "good day" is one in which no one talks to him
for hours, or expects him to carry on a conversation. Yet later, when
they're trapped together during the sandstorm, he's overflowing with
things to tell her about the desert.
> >This implies that there's a part of Almasy that isn't as stiff
> >and reserved and unreachable as he initially looks in the film. And THAT
> >is a clue that when it comes to his own relationships, he's vulnerable to
> >"falling in love with the 'wrong' person" himself.
>
> I think his achetype is that he is an individualistic, self-sustained,
> and emotion-restrained person. But he is still a human being having
> some sort of "weakness" especially when confronting to the bigger
> environment. He challenged his fate and pursued the infinity
> undauntingly and was hammered.
And that, as others have said, is why this is a tragedy...it's a story
about people's fatal flaws.
> >I am glad you are one of the people who sees that. Too many have dismissed
> >it as a "bodice-ripper romance." (sniff)
>
> Yeah, I counted the number of romances in the theater :). ... Well,
> have they ever seen a guy rip off a woman's clothes and sew it back in
> other movies before? :)
I loved that! Of course, my sister the seamstress pointed out that there
was no way even a good needleworker could have sewed up that dress again
the way he ripped it...right down the middle, not even down the
seams...much less him! I still think of it as a "film flub" that after he
made her angry in the tub after saying she should forget him, she got out,
took the dress away and stalked off. Are we supposed to believe she put it
back on, still not sewn together right (she didn't bring a change of
clothes, unless it was tucked in that little purse), left his room, and
went out in public back to her hotel room? :-) If she did, the locals got
quite a peep show...
> I quite enjoyed this film even if I just look
> at the romantic stories and plots.
Me too, but there was so much more, wasn't there?
[snip]
> >I think you have a very good point here. Madox couldn't resolve this inner
> >conflict. He was the one who said "It was never about countries, was it?"
> >to Almasy, yet when Almasy hands the maps over to the Germans, suddenly
> >it's "about countries," all right.
>
> Yes, it is quite true. In ordinary time we can have various beliefs.
> But it is when the major events hit us (or we hit the events for that
> matter), the potential inner conflict immediately floats up to the
> surface.
That's one of the things that really touched me. The idea that under the
right circumstances, people from anywhere can be great friends...and under
the wrong ones, bitter fatal enemies. And what a depressing thought that
is.
Thomas Brenndorfer
>
> Almasy is meant to represent Lucifer. There is an essay on the English
> Patient by Stephen Scobie called "The Reading Lesson: Michael Ondaatje
> and the Patients of Desire" in which Almasy is described as the fallen
> angel. While reading the novel there are a lot of references to him
> falling burning from the sky, I even think that he describes himself as
> a demon.
>
> Here is an excerpt from the essay:
>
> "This image, of a burning man falling into the desert, has all kinds of
> symbolic or mythological resonances (Lucifer, for instance, falling into
> hell-and the third page of Ondaatje's novel does cite the Miltonic
> phrase "the war in heaven", but it also poses obvious questions of
> narrative. "I didn't know who he was," Ondaatje cofesses, so the
> business of the novel becomes the telling of a story to explain who he
> was. How did he get there? Why was he burning? What happned next?"
>
Interesting point, as it refers to several fascinating scenes in the novel.
There is a moment when Almasy compares himself to a jackal as he prepares
to leave Katherine in the cave, and he wonders if he is a demon -- a demon
lover, a demon friend, etc. (sorry, I don't have the book in front of me to
be more precise). I think the film touches very lightly on this -- the
scene that would come the closest is the one where Katherine calls Almasy's
behavior "predatory".
But Almasy is most self-reflective and ironic -- he was wondering about his
own nature, about how a classical motif may be applied to him.
Tom Brenndorfer
tho...@msn.com
Te-Ming Peng
Javier Franco <javi...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Almasy is meant to represent Lucifer. There is an essay on the English
>Patient by Stephen Scobie called "The Reading Lesson: Michael Ondaatje
>and the Patients of Desire" in which Almasy is described as the fallen
>angel. While reading the novel there are a lot of references to him
>falling burning from the sky, I even think that he describes himself as
>a demon.
Hmmm..., it is getting interesting :). Some remarks are in the
following:
1. I was making judgement from the film, not from the novel. As I
said in my previous post, in addition to Almasy's falling from the sky
with fire, there was a biplane flying toward the sun in movie trailer.
There was also a notion of "plunging into the sea". Those things
together appearing in the film as well as footages suggested that it
was the image of Icarus in Greek mythology.
2. Lucifer appears both in Roman mythology and Christian theology.
What you were refering to is the Lucifer in the latter, who was a
rebelled angel against God and was sent down to Hell. However,
whether Almasy in the novel is Icarus or Lucifer can be subject to
some controversies. Then it can also be the combination of the two
myths. So I myself open to any interpretation at this moment.
[deleted]
Te-Ming Peng
www...@getridodispart.frontiernet.net (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>Yes. People like that truly exist and it amazes me that some people found
>Almasy to be so "cold" and unconvincing or Fiennes to have portrayed him
>so poorly. I think he did excellently because he had to portray this man
>who was so reserved that this falling in love was out of character for
>him.
Yes, I think Fiennes' performance was excellent. Let me see:
repulsed (they are tourists), surprised (when listening to Katharine's
story in Herodotus), clumsy (his manner when they were in the market),
reserved (refusing her paintings), sharing (telling her the stories
about sandstorm), resistent (Mrs. Cliffton), passionate (bodice
ripping), tender (sewing her clothes), naughty (in the Christmas party
before writing down his thought), humorous (joking her with the song),
disappointed, confused, disarrayed, undaunting ..., while still
keeping his basic trait
They both seemed to be complement to each other. In other words, each
has some traits the other doesn't have. But still there were some
very fundamentals they were very much alike that they can share in
their hearts, such as singing, reading etc.
I once was invited to have a Thanksgiving dinner with a family I don't
know several years ago. In terms of politics, the husband is a
Republican and the wife is a Democrat. Their views are not the same
(even argue a little bit in front of me :). Their traits are also
quite different such as the husband seldom talked while his wife
talked a lot and apprently is the decision maker. They know their
differences but they married. So I think in a deeper sense, they
might share something profound and intimate that an outsider cannot
easily detect.
>Yes. Almasy is a uniquely individual person who understands and accepts
>things other people would not...and Katharine is indeed fascinated by what
>would make someone like this (to her at the time) stodgy but disturbingly
>attractive-against-her-will man take to the desert. And at that point, she
>can't even get him to say why; he brushes her off with the story
>illustrating that to him a "good day" is one in which no one talks to him
>for hours, or expects him to carry on a conversation. Yet later, when
>they're trapped together during the sandstorm, he's overflowing with
>things to tell her about the desert.
Almasy was humming and singing when they set out to explore the area
(which lead to the discovery of the Cave). Then Katharine started
asking questions about him. Well, Almasy just gave her a buckett of
cold shower :). Speaking of this, I like Kristin's performance of how
she reacted to Almasy. She had an embarrased smile but still maintain
her composure. I also noticed it was the first time Almasy smiled
when she sang what he had sung just not long ago. In some sense, I
would say to both of them their minds were a little bit like a stone
throwing into a peaceful lake.
>> Yeah, I counted the number of romances in the theater :). ... Well,
>> have they ever seen a guy rip off a woman's clothes and sew it back in
>> other movies before? :)
>I loved that! Of course, my sister the seamstress pointed out that there
>was no way even a good needleworker could have sewed up that dress again
>the way he ripped it...right down the middle, not even down the
>seams...much less him! I still think of it as a "film flub" that after he
>made her angry in the tub after saying she should forget him, she got out,
>took the dress away and stalked off. Are we supposed to believe she put it
>back on, still not sewn together right (she didn't bring a change of
>clothes, unless it was tucked in that little purse), left his room, and
>went out in public back to her hotel room? :-) If she did, the locals got
>quite a peep show...
Ah, one of the nicest things about this film is that for those who
appreciate TEP, they can always extend their imaginations :). The
director can of course add some scenes to make it clearer. However,
by doing so it would destroy the beauty. The beauty is Almasy tried
to sew her clothes (and from the film we know he didn't finish it),
which really show his tenderness and attentiveness, and added an
element of surprise to the audiences.
>> I quite enjoyed this film even if I just look
>> at the romantic stories and plots.
>Me too, but there was so much more, wasn't there?
Well, to quote Almasy's words to Caravaggio: "I tried to cover a small
portion of the area (or region?) and still failed." That is my
feeling in the process of understanding this film :).
m...@juno.com
On 2 Apr 1997 15:38:56 GMT, "Thomas Brenndorfer" <tho...@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>
>GRACE LIN <li...@nevada.edu> wrote in article
><5hsrhl$q...@news.nevada.edu>...
>>
>> My guess about Katherine's body is that since it is in the cave and in
>> the desert, the lack of moisture prevents or slows down decay.
>>
>> --
>
>The more I think about the lines in the film, the more I'm convinced the
>filmmakers changed the chronology of the novel.
>
>At the seaside hospital, Almasy says "They found me in the wreckage of a
>plane at the beginning of the war".
>
>He does not say "middle", which is what the year 1942 would be. And, if the
>film was following the novel, he would definitely know the difference
>between beginning and middle since he made a lot of efforts to help the
>German spies prior to their military actions in North Africa. Ondaatje's
>account does take a lot more from the historical Almasy than the film does,
>which is even more removed from actual history (which is not a bad thing
>per se, as long as the film is internally consistent, and the poetic
>license does not take away from the main point of the film).
>
>The other line by Almasy is also important, the line made in 1939 about
>there being a lot of "traffic in the desert lately", with various armies.
>That would definitely set things up for a short time span between his
>capture and his return to the cave. (Also, his rescue by the nomads is also
>easily accounted for since they were the ones who likely gave him
>directions to find the cave in the first place a few years earlier. The
>nomads seemed to be only a few days away from the Cave at the
>Libyan-Egyptian border.)
>
>The preservation of Katherine's body may have something to do with the
>extreme cold in the cave. Also, when Almasy carries her body outside, he
>had spread saffron (from the thimble necklace) over her face to add color.
>In the novel, she is caked in pigments that seem to be everywhere in the
>cave.
>
>Tom Brenndorfer
>tho...@msn.com
>
>
>
>
What year the War started depends on what country you are from. Most
of Europe got going Sep 1, 1939, but I don't know whether that
included Hungary. America's War begins over two years later in
December, 1941. The War in the Desert didn't really get going until
1942 which was just months after Pearl Harbor. The mapmakers never
went back anywhere, war or no war. One of the themes of the film was
the pan-European nature of the map-making. So nationalities and who
was making war on whom did not matter to any of them until Almasy ran
smack up against the War when he tried to get help for Katherine. So
"his War" may have started right then.
The "traffic in the desert" remark was a reference by a group of
Europeans from countries on opposite sides, to their only vague sense
that the war had anything to do with the loyalties to one anotherthey
had formed as mapmen in the desert. All the other characters have
disappeared and Almasy is alone, trying to get help from the Allies,
when the first member of the mapping group (Almasy) has to face the
War. None of the others face the war, except in flashback, until
after that point. Or maybe you think Katherine's english hubby wanted
to kill Almasy because he was a filthy hungarian!
The timeline between Katherine's husband attempting to kill Almasy and
Almasy's return to Katherine in the cave, is three to four weeks at
the outside, and I would suggest she had not been dead long or she
would not look or smell good enough to carry. Katherine had not seen
Almasy for a year, when her husband attempted to kill him with the
place. They had broken up that year earlier so Katherine could
preserve her marriage, as Colin Firth was getting wise, as were others
among the mappers.
m...@juno.com
pbi...@gmail.com
> Hello, I just saw this movie and would someone
> please answer some questions while it's fresh in my mind:
>
> 1. Does the novel and movie operate on the same
> time line? Some friends told me it took Almasy
> about 3 years to finally get back to the Cave of
> the Swimmers, but in the movie, Katherine looked
> like she had just died recently. During the close-ups,
> her skin and lips certainly did not look like that of
> a dried up corpse.
> 2. What was the name of Bach piece Hana (Binoche)
> was playing on the piano just before Kip came to tell her to
> stop?
>
> where all the men of the British Geographical Institute
> said they were married except Almasy. Does that
> mean Madox was another character who was committing
> adultery in the Egypt? It was heavily implied that he was
>
> Thank you for any replies. This was a wonderful movie even
> though I thought that all the subplots did not mesh and
> integrate evenly.
>
> --Ilsa
Was the English patient terminally ill? Why can't he walk? He was only burned.