A question for those who have seen "Eyes Wide Shut" (spoiler, sort of)
Rick Seiler
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I was left with one fundamental question about this film apart from the
aspects of it which were deliberately left vague (e.g. the fate of the piano
player). Was any possible way suggested that the hooker at the orgy could
possibly know that was Dr. Bill under the mask? Unless she's psychic, I'm
thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance before he
put on his mask, but I didn't see that, and I'm not sure it was suggested. I
don't recall who might have been nearby when he was ushered into the
mansion, but this must be the only way, right?
Thanks
Loitus
the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone was aware
of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
Rick Seiler
whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
Loitus <loi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
Tuttle
>
> OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
> whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
> down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
> when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
I took it that this was a very private and exclusive club trying to keep
everything under wraps ("If you knew who others of the people were, you
wouldn't be able to sleep at night") so an outsider would've certainly
spread word. Sydney Pollack's character knows Tom and knows the
prostitute (party scene) and therefore told her.
Here's another question. On the cane of head orgy guy is a button (look
carefully), what does it do?
Alex Dionisio
saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker? Didn't she
just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
Rick Seiler wrote:
> OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
> whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
> down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
> when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>
Alex Dionisio
mo...@my-deja.com
"Rick Seiler" <rse...@usa.net> wrote:
> SPOILER BELOW
>
> I was left with one fundamental question about this film apart from
the
> aspects of it which were deliberately left vague (e.g. the fate of the
piano
> player). Was any possible way suggested that the hooker at the orgy
could
> possibly know that was Dr. Bill under the mask? Unless she's psychic,
I'm
> thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance
before he
> put on his mask, but I didn't see that, and I'm not sure it was
suggested. I
> don't recall who might have been nearby when he was ushered into the
> mansion, but this must be the only way, right?
>
> Thanks
I was wondering the same thing. She seems to have been rather
preoccupied by that whole ceremony before Dr. Bill enters the house,
with no opportunity for anyone to talk to her and tell her that it is
him before she leads Bill out of
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Walter
loi...@aol.com (Loitus) wrote:
> That guy said that in his jacket was a reciept bearing Tom's name and
there was
> the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone
was aware
> of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
uhhh... So in the 5 seconds it took for him to put on his mask (his
only recognizable feature while dressed up) and enter the room with the
hooker kneeling on the floor, someone ran into the room to alert
everyone his name/etc? C'mon.
This part makes no sense. Even if the fact that his arrival in the taxi
was announced over loudspeaker (let's say), no one would have known his
name until they got his coat. It took all of 5-7 seconds for him to
hand over his coat and enter the room where the hooker (that recognized
him) was. The point isn't that he was just a "new guy" or something,
but that she immediately knew who he was. There is no way.
llater,
Walter
Pop Weasel
> Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it the model that OD at Pollack's party,
> saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker?
Didn't she
> just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
According to the Pollack character, Mandy was a hooker as well.
De Armac
saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker? Didn't she
just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?>>
Dr. Z just said it was a hooker that saved Bill. But later admitted it was the
one who OD and died -- conclusion: Mandy, the girl who OD in his bathroom was a
hooker. The *two* girls who hung on his arms were models (and didn't one of
them look amazingly like Angelina Jolie? perhaps it is my imagination)...This
hooker (Mandy) is a different hooker from Domino. (the one who was revealed to
have HIV). On a completely different note: the scene in the morgue was
fascinating for me -- internally, I was thinking "no, no, no" when he was about
to kiss the corpse...and disappointed when he didn't.
chris broadhead
aka mandi is who od's at first party, and appears as the girl with the
feather headdress and really skinny arms, and who warns cruise.
hooker #2 - domino, is the one who tests hiv +
On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:10:11 GMT, Alex Dionisio <rdio...@home.com>
wrote:
>Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it the model that OD at Pollack's party,
>saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker? Didn't she
>just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
>
>Rick Seiler wrote:
>
>> OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
>> whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
>> down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
>> when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>>
>> Loitus <loi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
chris broadhead
this:
"there's a new guy...he just showed up"
-"which one do you mean?"
-"the one that's 5'2"
On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:55:50 GMT, Walter <walter...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>In article <19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> loi...@aol.com (Loitus) wrote:
>> That guy said that in his jacket was a reciept bearing Tom's name and
>there was
>> the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone
>was aware
>> of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
>
Lake Brandon
Why would someone have to talk to her? She might have recognized him right
off. True, she was groggy when she saw him, but he did save her life, so
it might have made an impression.
Also, he walked in late, and was standing off to himself, which would have
immediately draw attention, and it fact did. Remember the couple that
stared at him and then nodded (which was probably Pollack's character and
wife)? And if I remember correctly, Mandy couldn't see Cruise directly, he
was to her far left as she sat in the circle, but she was quite capable of
seeing the masked couple that noticed bill and their acknowledgement of
him. Perhaps she went looking in the direction of their gaze and realized
who Cruise's character was then.
--
-Brandon
"Normal human beings don't have loaded backpacks pointed at them
by some hopped up, twisted out, whacked out chick at a coffee shop."
-from the movie "Sweethearts"
Ken James Burke
On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Rick Seiler wrote:
> SPOILER BELOW
> X
> X
> X
> X
> X
> X
> X
> X
> XX
> I was left with one fundamental question about this film apart from the
> aspects of it which were deliberately left vague (e.g. the fate of the piano
> player). Was any possible way suggested that the hooker at the orgy could
> possibly know that was Dr. Bill under the mask? Unless she's psychic, I'm
> thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance before he
> put on his mask, but I didn't see that, and I'm not sure it was suggested. I
> don't recall who might have been nearby when he was ushered into the
> mansion, but this must be the only way, right?
>
Two points:
What would Dr. Bill's distinguishing characteristics be for Mandy? His
EYES. He gets her back from near-death by getting her to look into his
eyes, and his eyes grabbing her and bringing her back. His eyes, that would be
highlighted in the mask. That's all it took for her to recognize him.
Remember the movie's title, too? Kubrick just loves thes multiple-meaning
plays on themes/objects.
Immediate recognition of him as Dr. Bill wasn't necessary for
the plot, though. After all, she only gives her life to save his (maybe?)
when his face is clearly visible. But I really prefer my first
interpretation of recognizing him from his eyes.
By the way, great movie.
Ken Burke <aa...@chebucto.ns.ca> Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
Ken James Burke
> Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it the model that OD at Pollack's party,
> saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker? Didn't she
> just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
You are correct, sir. Mandy is at the Christmas party, orgy, and morgue.
The other girl is a different subplot, like the costume shop scenes.
White Sheep
wrote:
> Unless she's psychic, I'm
>thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance before he
>put on his mask,
Or saw "distinguishing marks"?
Tuttle
> Also, he walked in late, and was standing off to himself, which would have
> immediately draw attention, and it fact did. Remember the couple that
> stared at him and then nodded (which was probably Pollack's character and
> wife)? And if I remember correctly, Mandy couldn't see Cruise directly, he
> was to her far left as she sat in the circle, but she was quite capable of
> seeing the masked couple that noticed bill and their acknowledgement of
> him. Perhaps she went looking in the direction of their gaze and realized
> who Cruise's character was then.
Or maybe Pollack told he rhe was there while Cruise was wandering about
(remember somebody takes him from her or vice versa) and tells her to do
it
Tuttle
>
> i could be really mean and say the discussion went something like
> this:
> "there's a new guy...he just showed up"
> -"which one do you mean?"
> -"the one that's 5'2"
>
But there's a security camera at the front gate
Tuttle
>
> I was thinking "no, no, no" when he was about
> to kiss the corpse...and disappointed when he didn't.
I think that if the guard wasn't there, he would have.
Tuttle
>
> On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Rick Seiler wrote:
>
> By the way, great movie.
>
A few ways that come to me
There is a security camera at the front door. He doesn't put on the mask
suntil he goes inside
When an outsider comes it's obvious that word will spread. Pollack
would've gotten wind, gotten to Mandy and told her to do what she did
John Savage
wrote:
>OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
>whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
>down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
>when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>
>Loitus <loi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
>> That guy said that in his jacket was a reciept bearing Tom's name and
>there was
>> the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone was
>aware
>> of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
>
Um, I don't think the woman who oded on the speedball was the former
Miss New York prostitute. They looked different to me at least. (And
yes, I'm talking about their _faces_, not their breasts.) Actually,
did anyone notice that the Miss New York's nipples changed from the
party scene to the morgue? I noticed this during watching and my
girlfriend confirmed my suspicions afterwards.
Eyes Wide Shut
Stanley Kubrick
Tom Cruise
Nicole Kidman's ass
July 16
Trent
>whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
>down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
>when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>
Maybe, but you got to remember that this was a VERY private gathering, and
those people would have been very scared if an unknown like Cruise snuck in.
So, word might spread pretty fast.
-------> Trent
Trent
>the way he did and not be noticed... after all, he was the last to
>arrive and the ceremnoy was already under way. i think he would have
>made a pretty obvious entrance that would have probably been out of the
>ordinary for the patrons of the orgy.... plus there was the
>already-mentioned receipt and the taxi-cab....
>
But he really had no clue what he was in for. All he had was a password and an
address. And BTW, I was happy when they said there was no second password,
because during that scene, I immediately thought that I would have said, "Gee,
no one told me about a second password."
-------> Trent
DOYLE60
>an
>address. And BTW, I was happy when they said there was no second password,
>because during that scene, I immediately thought that I would have said,
>"Gee,
>no one told me about a second password."
I think everyone thought that. It was pretty obvious. But it hardly matters.
Even if he confidently guessed there wasn't a second password, they would have
nabbed him another way.
Doyle
camp...@my-deja.com
>
> Two points:
>
> What would Dr. Bill's distinguishing characteristics be for Mandy? His
> EYES. He gets her back from near-death by getting her to look into his
> eyes, and his eyes grabbing her and bringing her back. His eyes, that would be
> highlighted in the mask. That's all it took for her to recognize him.
> Remember the movie's title, too? Kubrick just loves thes multiple-meaning
> plays on themes/objects.
>
> Immediate recognition of him as Dr. Bill wasn't necessary for
> the plot, though. After all, she only gives her life to save his (maybe?)
> when his face is clearly visible. But I really prefer my first
> interpretation of recognizing him from his eyes.
>
> By the way, great movie.
>
> Ken Burke <aa...@chebucto.ns.ca> Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
I agree that Mandy recognized Bill from the time that he saved her life
at the party. But, I think that she recognized his voice after she was
paired up with him. I don't know how it was that she picked him, but the
reason I believe his voice gave him away was because of his insistance,
at the party, that she nod her head if she could here him.
That was my interpretation at the time.
Did anyone else notice that at the end, when Sydney Pollack is explaining
everything to Cruise's character, there appeared to be two solid red 7
balls on the pool table - one near the corner pocket and one near the
same-side center pocket? (I have no idea how I happened to notice that)
Jon
Charles Miles
> thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance before he
> don't recall who might have been nearby when he was ushered into the
> mansion, but this must be the only way, right?
>
...Well, she'd definitely be able to pick him out of the crowd if the
whole thing was a setup, right?
rasko...@disinfo.net
Walter <walter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The point isn't that he was just a "new guy" or something,
> but that she immediately knew who he was. There is no way.
Bill was walking around the party, looking like he didn't belong there.
I thought he appeared obviously uncomfortable, just drifting around
like that. Mandy didn't have to know when she first started to warn
him, who he was. She could have just known that he didn't belong.
Later, there was a delay of several minutes when Bill had to take off
his mask in front of everybody before she announced that she would
redeem him. She could have only known then that that was him.
There's also the fact that Bill was seen by many in Sydney Pollack's
circle of friends being buddy-buddy with the piano player. And Pollack
made some comment later, I think, about not trusting the piano player,
or how he "should have known", or something. They could have, in a way,
expected him.
But I could be totally wrong. Just throwing some ideas out there.
e.m.
Brandons from Space
and as others have pointed out, there were security cameras at the gate.
Having someone come in a cab, but knows the password is bound to look
strange, if not to the gatesmen, then to house which has to send a car for
him.
--
-Brandon
Walter
> >Bill was walking around the party, looking like he didn't belong
there.
He wasn't walking around the party at the beginning. He walked in and
stood with other people (someone else said that he stood alone).
> and as others have pointed out, there were security cameras at the
gate.
> Having someone come in a cab, but knows the password is bound to look
> strange, if not to the gatesmen, then to house which has to send a
car for
> him.
First, so is everyone saying that simply looking strange was cause
enough for the prostitute to issue the first warning? Perhaps, she's
the designated "warner" of suspicious people?
Second, how did they go about letting the prositute know that there was
someone strange arriving? Loudspeaker?
My point is that they knew who he was right from the start without any
proof (in other words, a slip-up). The prostitute warning him and the
couple (whom most assume to be the party host and his wife) nodding to
him are examples of this. There is no way to explain how they knew it
was him (until the second prostitute warning [the butlers could have
told her who it was from the rental slip]).
The only other option is that by arriving late (car trouble anyone?)
and arriving in a cab (wife took the limo and ran off with the
mailman?), he looks suspicious enough for someone (told by someone
interupting the ceremony to tell everyone) to warn him to leave. After
the initial warning, they find out who he is.
llater,
Walter
Jeffrey Davis
I have to wonder about the significance of the details. The movie's
scenes are almost certainly Kubrick's laughter at how cliched our sexual
fantasies are: the "suave" Hungarian seducer, the bi-sexual models and
the allure of a threesome, the randy teen-age minx, the good looking
hooker w/ a heart of gold, the satanic orgy. I suppose there were no
shoe fetishists or gerbils because Kubrick didn't want to tip his hand
too much, but maybe I'm giving Kubrick too much credit. Maybe he took
the erotic content seriously.
--
Jeffrey Davis <da...@ca.uky.edu>
Thank you, Madam, the agony is somewhat abated.
Bilge Ebiri
Jeffrey Davis wrote in message <37935E...@ca.uky.edu>...
>
>I have to wonder about the significance of the details. The movie's
>scenes are almost certainly Kubrick's laughter at how cliched our sexual
>fantasies are: the "suave" Hungarian seducer, the bi-sexual models and
>the allure of a threesome, the randy teen-age minx, the good looking
>hooker w/ a heart of gold, the satanic orgy. I suppose there were no
>shoe fetishists or gerbils because Kubrick didn't want to tip his hand
>too much, but maybe I'm giving Kubrick too much credit. Maybe he took
>the erotic content seriously.
>
Well, I imagine a shoe fetishist wouldn't mind seeing all those women
wearing nothing except stiletto heels and masks.
love,
Bilge
Dylan Bryan Dolman
> >shoe fetishists or gerbils because Kubrick didn't want to tip his hand
> >too much, but maybe I'm giving Kubrick too much credit. Maybe he took
> >the erotic content seriously.
It would be nice to see the whole thing as tongue-in-cheek, but everything
I've read from Kubrick's wife and others suggests that the movie's themes,
and its moralism, were felt quite personally by Kubrick. The archaicisms
are there because, it seems, Kubrick was archaic. That doesn't make it a
bad film, just one that you have to watch as if it had been made decades
ago, at the time of Kubrick's retreat from public life.
Dylan
=dbd=
Jeffrey Davis
The source novel is an antique -- the author, Arthur Schnitzler, was
born in 1862 and died in 1931 -- so it's not surprising there are so
many "archaic" touches. I'm wondering if the echoes of the Alice books
are in the original. (The Alice books impressed the hell out of the
generation that came of age around the turn of the century.) And while
the nightingale (the piano player Nick Nightingale if you're keeping
score) isn't specifically Keatsian, Keats certainly would have been a
larger influence on a 19th century author than someone of Kubrick's age.
Has anyone read the novel?
fish...@fotd.hosting.netcom.com
Rick Seiler <rse...@usa.net> wrote:
>SPOILER BELOW
>
>
"They" *knew*
so she was totally setup in that game the whole time.
the "redemption" deal was a total sham; the OD really
was a coincidence, and the implication of murder really
was wrong; the audience isn't supposed to be left wondering
about this, but the character is.
--
-fishbowl-
zm1...@my-deja.com
times before. What if although everyone wore masks they always wore the
same masks. A newcomer would instantly be recognized by everyone.
ok that may sound weak but it's the only way I can think of that he was
recognized so quickly.
What this on second thought. What if his pressence was known only to a
select few like the polik (sp?) character and since he knew the
prostitute he sent her to warn tom.
Presto
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: X
: XX
: I was left with one fundamental question about this film apart from the
: aspects of it which were deliberately left vague (e.g. the fate of the piano
: player). Was any possible way suggested that the hooker at the orgy could
: possibly know that was Dr. Bill under the mask? Unless she's psychic, I'm
: thinking the only way would be if she had been near the entrance before he
: put on his mask, but I didn't see that, and I'm not sure it was suggested. I
: don't recall who might have been nearby when he was ushered into the
: mansion, but this must be the only way, right?
It seemed fairly obvious to me: Dr. Bill arrives at the gate in a taxi,
unmasked. There's a security camera there on which the people who run the
house can see him and know he is not on the guest list. There is a long
time between then and the time that he arrives at the door - whether a car
has to be called, or even just the driving time - and during this time,
word is spread around the party that there is an intruder. It's the kind
of thing that would have happened before, so there is a standard way to
let everyone know to be on their guard. (ie. "hey, very important &
recognizable guests, make sure you're not recognized by the intruder.")
Mandy, having been at several of these parties, recognizes the signal.
She is inclined to warn him before even recognizing who he is, but I also
accept someone's explanation here that she recognizes him by his eyes
(clever idea) and voice (likely too). I just don't think that with her
first warning, she knew who he was, there wasn't time and she obviously
didn't ever specificically see his face. Later, with full recognition she
either volunteers or is called into action by the higher-ups. (Notice, she
is called away much as guests were called away at Pollack's earlier party)
As far as whether "they" enacted revenge on Mandy and Nick, it's up to
your interpretation. Because this is a movie there does not need to be a
"here's what actually happened" like there would be in real life. I
appreciate this, but wish the ambiguity were more real - to find out the
truth, he'd simply need to look up his friend in Seattle, who shouldn't be
hard to find.
By the way, it's also quite possible that if there is a "staged" trial
scene, that it's also staged for the participants. Perhaps only the
people who run the house actually know it's staged, which is why the
audience was so convincingly "shocked" by Mandy offering his redemption
(they too think she will die). So perhaps Pollack (forget his char's
name) was one of the organizers of the house. This is just an alternative
explanation, I don't know if it's "right."
Biggest flaw I saw with the whole idea: of course the "hired help" would
have a different password than the rest of the guests! Why would anyone
be able to get in with Nick's password, unless they were arriving as the
*band*?
Steve
Michele317
<<Biggest flaw I saw with the whole idea: of course the "hired help" would
have a different password than the rest of the guests! Why would anyone
be able to get in with Nick's password, unless they were arriving as the
*band*?>>
not necessarily a flaw. it tipped off the guys at the gate (in addition to the
other clues) that bill didn't belong. they could have let him in, sending a
signal ahead that an outsider was arriving, much as the security camera sent a
signal. it was also another clue that a band member had breached security by
divulging the password. which makes me wonder... was nick part of the entire,
possibly staged, evening? it would have been easy for him to memorize 'fidelio'
rather than writing it down where bill could see it.
Charles Miles
worked with Terry Southern!) Kubrick may have shared the morals of the
movie's end, but that doesn't mean the *rest* of the film isn't one big
sly wink.
Dylan Bryan Dolman wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey Davis wrote in message <37935E...@ca.uky.edu>...
> > >... I suppose there were no
> > >shoe fetishists or gerbils because Kubrick didn't want to tip his hand
> > >too much, but maybe I'm giving Kubrick too much credit. Maybe he took
> > >the erotic content seriously.
>
> It would be nice to see the whole thing as tongue-in-cheek, but everything
> I've read from Kubrick's wife and others suggests that the movie's themes,
> and its moralism, were felt quite personally by Kubrick. The archaicisms
> are there because, it seems, Kubrick was archaic. That doesn't make it a
> bad film, just one that you have to watch as if it had been made decades
> ago, at the time of Kubrick's retreat from public life.
>
> Dylan
> =dbd=
Don House-Sunservice
So why did Bill's outfit turn blue for a while when he was discovered at the
party?
dh
Michele317
party?>>
what color outfit did he actually rent? he asked for black, it appeared to be
black when he put it on.. but in full lighting, it was shown to be blue. did
the shopkeeper just rent what he had on hand? or does the shopkeeper have some
connection to the party? i'll have to see it a few more times...
Mike Rice
Loitus, I read this book. He never knew
for sure the dead woman was the woman
who warned him away. The film tried to
make concrete a film that was all about
ambiguity and not knowing. I think Kubrick
died without completing this film, and studio
hacks tried to make a thriller out of it in the
editing room. The film is rotten.
Mike Rice
Mike Rice
trap door below where
you are standing, you
idiotic moron.
Mike Rice
Tuttle <te...@test.com> wrote:
>Rick Seiler wrote:
>>
>> OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
>> whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
>> down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
>> when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>I took it that this was a very private and exclusive club trying to keep
>everything under wraps ("If you knew who others of the people were, you
>wouldn't be able to sleep at night") so an outsider would've certainly
>spread word. Sydney Pollack's character knows Tom and knows the
>prostitute (party scene) and therefore told her.
>Here's another question. On the cane of head orgy guy is a button (look
>carefully), what does it do?
Mike Rice
This was a film about dreams,
not about reality.
Mike Rice
noodl...@hotmail.com (John Savage) wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:02:17 -0400, "Rick Seiler" <rse...@usa.net>
>wrote:
>>OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so quickly have
>>whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would have trickled
>>down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original meeting
>>when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
>>
>>Loitus <loi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
>>> That guy said that in his jacket was a reciept bearing Tom's name and
>>there was
>>> the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone was
>>aware
>>> of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
>>
Mike Rice
no sense.
Mike Rice
Walter <walter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <19990716192324...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> loi...@aol.com (Loitus) wrote:
>> That guy said that in his jacket was a reciept bearing Tom's name and
>there was
>> the fact that he took a taxi which brought forth attention. Everyone
>was aware
>> of him. She knew him because he saved her life and so she saved his
>uhhh... So in the 5 seconds it took for him to put on his mask (his
>only recognizable feature while dressed up) and enter the room with the
>hooker kneeling on the floor, someone ran into the room to alert
>everyone his name/etc? C'mon.
>This part makes no sense. Even if the fact that his arrival in the taxi
>was announced over loudspeaker (let's say), no one would have known his
>name until they got his coat. It took all of 5-7 seconds for him to
>hand over his coat and enter the room where the hooker (that recognized
>him) was. The point isn't that he was just a "new guy" or something,
>but that she immediately knew who he was. There is no way.
>llater,
>Walter
Mike Rice
Kubrick has no sure handed control
of this material. This is a very botched
film. He is not in a position to laugh at
anyone. He is unable to tell this story.
Mike Rice
>I have to wonder about the significance of the details. The movie's
>scenes are almost certainly Kubrick's laughter at how cliched our sexual
>fantasies are: the "suave" Hungarian seducer, the bi-sexual models and
>the allure of a threesome, the randy teen-age minx, the good looking
>hooker w/ a heart of gold, the satanic orgy. I suppose there were no
>shoe fetishists or gerbils because Kubrick didn't want to tip his hand
>too much, but maybe I'm giving Kubrick too much credit. Maybe he took
>the erotic content seriously.
>--
Mike Rice
Mike Rice
Mike Rice
read it in half the time it takes to watch
the stupid and inaccurate movie. This
story has been badly told by Kubrick and
the other hands at Warners that wrecked
a wonderful story.
All these questions about details are
superfluous. The movie was about
ambiguity and dreams, not about concrete
reality.
Mike Rice
Mike Rice
>The source novel is an antique -- the author, Arthur Schnitzler, was
>born in 1862 and died in 1931 -- so it's not surprising there are so
>many "archaic" touches. I'm wondering if the echoes of the Alice books
>are in the original. (The Alice books impressed the hell out of the
>generation that came of age around the turn of the century.) And while
>the nightingale (the piano player Nick Nightingale if you're keeping
>score) isn't specifically Keatsian, Keats certainly would have been a
>larger influence on a 19th century author than someone of Kubrick's age.
>Has anyone read the novel?
>--
Mike Rice
Mike Rice
jspam...@frontiernet.net (Pop Weasel) wrote:
>, Alex Dionisio <rdio...@home.com> wrote:
>> Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it the model that OD at Pollack's party,
>> saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker?
>Didn't she
>> just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
> According to the Pollack character, Mandy was a hooker as well.
Presto
: <<Biggest flaw I saw with the whole idea: of course the "hired help" would
: have a different password than the rest of the guests! Why would anyone
: be able to get in with Nick's password, unless they were arriving as the
: *band*?>>
: not necessarily a flaw. it tipped off the guys at the gate (in addition to the
: other clues) that bill didn't belong. they could have let him in, sending a
: signal ahead that an outsider was arriving, much as the security camera sent a
: signal. it was also another clue that a band member had breached security by
: divulging the password. which makes me wonder... was nick part of the entire,
: possibly staged, evening? it would have been easy for him to memorize 'fidelio'
: rather than writing it down where bill could see it.
I meant, that if ever there were such a thing as a real orgy society, it
would be obvious that they would use multiple passwords for members and
non-members (if not even among members, to know who leaked). But
Pollack's character gave all sorts of reasons why he'd been detected,
including that he put two and two together after seeing him with Nick. He
should have just said "well, you used the 'hired help' password, you
idiot!" and then gone on about the stuff they'd found in the jacket, etc.
I realize that it's realistic that he could still be let in (knowingly) by
the guards at the gate. The later scene is the part that reveals this was
not the case, and that's the part that's unrealistic.
Steve
fish...@fotd.hosting.netcom.com
Presto <pre...@cdc.net> wrote:
>But
>Pollack's character gave all sorts of reasons why he'd been detected,
>including that he put two and two together after seeing him with Nick. He
Maybe the society gets a kick out of scaring the pants
off outsiders; maybe it's not all that uncommon for somebody
to try to infiltrate, and they have the ritual down pat,
among many other rituals.
We had a less formal, but no less elaborate, way of dealing
with strags at my frat house. People who were dumb enough
to fall asleep at one of our (huge) parties had a severely
embarrassing price to pay :-) And heaven help any fool that
tried to pick a fight with a brother or harrass a sister, or
break into a room in the house.
We weren't all that violent about things, but our victims wouldn't
have known that. And yes, we did have some ceremonies involving
hooded cloaks and naked women, but not masks. More often we had
"ceremonies" involving naked women and kegs of beer, but that's
another story. The toga and pajama parties we had are a matter
of legend now, and fondly remembered :-)
This was all back in the day, of course. To me, the whole
"secret pagan sex cult of anonymous rich people having a party"
does not strike me as unbelievable, and the setup to scare the
living fuck out of an interloper (for the sheer laugh value to
the society) seems exactly right in context.
--
-fishbowl-
Presto
: Presto <pre...@cdc.net> wrote:
:>But Pollack's character gave all sorts of reasons why he'd been
:>detected, including that he put two and two together after seeing him
:>with Nick. He
: Maybe the society gets a kick out of scaring the pants
: off outsiders; maybe it's not all that uncommon for somebody
: to try to infiltrate, and they have the ritual down pat,
: among many other rituals.
Thanks for quoting a few lines of my post, even if you did ignore them and
proceed to talk about something else ;) In fact, if you read the earlier
articles in the thread, you're only repeating what I said there. Besides
the parts about drunken fraternity parties which were a new contribution.
Hopefully someone understood the point of the offhand remark I made at the
end of my *first* post (if they did, they haven't posted yet, thus this
little mini-tangent-thread), which was that if you're looking for an
inaccuracy in the orgy scene and the immediate identification of Dr. Bill,
it's simply that there was a single password. The rest is believable if a
little silly - though it's not at all like the orgy club I go to on
Tuesdays and Thursdays. Sure, we're all rich and hire ex-playmate
hookers, but there aren't all those drums.
Actually, the other unbelievable thing: has anyone ever actually been to
a party in a mask with no mouth-holes? How gross, you accumulate all
sorts of condensation from your breath and it gets really uncomfortable in
a hot & sweaty party, much less a hot & sweaty orgy party. Maybe they
identified him because he showed up in a "newbie mask."
Steve
Ray Nicolet
Mike Rice wrote:
> Walter, the whole movie makes
> no sense.
>
> Mike Rice
You didn't understand it. See it again.
Walter
If it was a waste of $15-20 before, why would he want to waste more
money? I've always thought these people that say "'you didn't really
*watch* the movie, go see it again' actually work for the box office
and just want to make more money.
FWIW Mike, I agree with you. If I had made this film, people would
hate it. Because Kubrick made it, it's genius.
fred_...@hotmail.com
Personally, I think everyone has too much trust in what Pollack
explains. I think the model (I think she was a model at the Christmas
party who was a little too drug happy and easy)was easily depressed and
didn't care about herself too much. She didn't think much of her life
and decided to undergo an ordeal to save Dr. Bill. Either that resulted
in death or, after it was over (hmmm, what would she have had to do to
redeem Dr. Bill?), she decided life was a little too painful to be worth
continuing.
In article
<A5049D9DC48ACF6D.4A998AD9...@lp.airnews.net>,
HungrySoul
> Maybe this is the answer. These parties have obviously been held many
> times before. What if although everyone wore masks they always wore
the
> same masks. A newcomer would instantly be recognized by everyone.
>
> ok that may sound weak but it's the only way I can think of that he
was
> recognized so quickly.
>
> What this on second thought. What if his pressence was known only to a
> select few like the polik (sp?) character and since he knew the
> prostitute he sent her to warn tom.
I really like your 1st hypothesis.
but your 2nd proposal couldn't of worked I don't think. Because the
lady that warned Dr. Bill was participating in that ritural, remember?
There's no way she could have gotten a message of any kind during
Bill's entrance and watching of the show.
.... unless of course she have ESP, which is actually not impossible.
Nichole Kiddman's character did display ESP activities to the Dr.'s own
fanatasies.
HungrySoul
> I agree that Mandy recognized Bill from the time that he saved her
life
> at the party. But, I think that she recognized his voice after she
was
> paired up with him.
yeah, the voice confirms that it was him. While at the orgy and wearing
the mask, the Mandy confirm that it was her??
Or were there any confirmation at all??
because at the hospital, Bill could be looking at the body of Mandy.
But it was not Mandy at the orgy.
> Did anyone else notice that at the end, when Sydney Pollack is
explaining
> everything to Cruise's character, there appeared to be two solid red 7
> balls on the pool table - one near the corner pocket and one near the
> same-side center pocket? (I have no idea how I happened to notice
that)
very good observation. I didn't know. but I'll look for it if I see a
2nd time. Kubrick is a master. the two 7 balls is not a mistake.
It's possible that second 7 ball serves as a symbol of Dr. Bill - How
odd and out of place he is in the game they are playing. In Janet
Maslin's reivew. She mentioned that the red of the pool table's cloth
was a reflection of the orgy's house's decor - also full of reds.
nuvo...@my-deja.com
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randal...@hotmail.com
wa...@tricon.net (chris broadhead) wrote:
> i think you're confusing your "hookers". hooker #1 - amanda curran
> aka mandi is who od's at first party, and appears as the girl with the
> feather headdress and really skinny arms, and who warns cruise.
> hooker #2 - domino, is the one who tests hiv +
> On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:10:11 GMT, Alex Dionisio <rdio...@home.com>
> wrote:
My question here:
I noticed that different actresses were listed in the credits
for "The Mysterious Woman" and "Amanda Curran". I didn't notice
a credit for Domino. Domino and Amanda looked quite a bit
alike to me(more alike than the mysterious woman and Amanda
since the Mysterious Woman had birthmarks that Amanda didn't
have. Did anyone notice if there was anyone in the Credits
for Domino?
> >Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it the model that OD at
Pollack's party,
> >saved Cruise at the circle, and later died by OD'ing not the hooker?
Didn't she
> >just belong to the subplot with here contracting HIV?
> >
> >Rick Seiler wrote:
> >
> >> OK, it just seems odd to me that word of his presence would so
quickly have
> >> whipped around the rooms filled with 100's of people and would
have trickled
> >> down to one prostitute (who was barely conscious in their original
meeting
> >> when he saved her life) in that amount of time.
> >>
There is a real point here.
spence...@gmail.com
Your Name
massive ego and zero acting talent.
hector
> All of yall are forgetting that 28 minutes of the movie were cut right before release. There might of been a whole scene in the party beforehand that we didnt see. Noone will ever know what happened in the 28 minutes of the movie that were cut because the director died a few days after the release and the movie heads took out that 28 minutes despite the director who had whole control not wanting it to happen. We will NEVER know the lost 28 minutes either in the house where they actually found out who tom cruise was.
>
The ritual part is like some fancy dress thing for Cruise's character's
obsessions, rather than being particularly revealing about anything.
The title almost makes sense if it was about exposing something about a
secret society.
Ed Stasiak
> > spencercorn1
> > We will NEVER know the lost 28 minutes either in the house where
> > they actually found out who tom cruise was.
> We already knew who Tom Cruise was ... a religious nutter with a
> massive ego and zero acting talent.
movies have been flops?
Your Name
equate to the quality of the movie. There's plenty of "blockbuster"
movies that were awful rubbish.
Neill Massello
> This could be one of those 20-year-old threads excavated courtesy Google
> Groups.
Yup. From 1999.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.movies.current-films/KNsEa_e5qIg>