Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon guide for Dummies
min...@blah.com
the silliest reasons on usenet so i've decided to compile a little
mini faq about CTHD. I'm not proclaiming myself as the almighty all
knowing asian film lore master so forgive me if some of my facts are
wrong this is still very much the beginning of a work in progress.
<SPOILERS>
I'm going to address some of the more insipid questions i've seen
first..
"What is this WUXIA thing?"
WUXIA is a big part of Asian cinema culture and fantasy novels dating
from as far back as the 1920's and maybe even before then. You can
compare its popularity with asian countries along the lines of how
popular sci-fi and fantasy novels are here in the U.S. The WUXIA genre
is also the asian equivalent of superheroes when compared to their
western counterparts. WUXIA has its own brand of mythos in which
various martial artists learn through forbidden texts to attain a
certain god like mastery of enlightenment and ability. They are beyond
mortal abilities and have attained true mastery and control over their
martial arts abilities.
"Why are the actor's flying? I don't get it, it's so.. like..
unrealistic!"
This is part of the WUXIA mythos, the flying is a form of "Chi
enlightenment" a superhuman mastery of martial arts and swordsmanship.
They aren't literally "flying" but more like reducing their own
gravity to be able to glide.
"CTHD copied the matrix!!"
Sigh, CTHD is based on the WUXIA genre, which has used the same theme
of supernatural "flying" since the 1950's. I believe matrix premiered
in april '99..sorry but the WUXIA genre predates the matrix by far.
Also, the matrix is roughly based on Hong Kong style action, the
wachowski brothers acknowledged Hong Kong cinema and anime as some of
their inspirations. Also, Yuen Woo Ping is acknowledged as having
worked the fight scenes in the Matrix thus giving it that Hong Kong
feel which was intentional. Yuen Woo Ping has worked on WUXIA films
and dozens of martial arts films before the Matrix as well.
"The dialogue/script sucked!!"
Well, the subtitles only translated correctly about 80% of the literal
meaning of the mandarin dialogue. Much of Chinese can only be
awkwardly translated into English for westerner's to understand.
Chinese is kind of like poetry in a way, its meaning varies
significantly with tone, nuance, and context. Subtitles don't do the
movie justice, but it's the closest thing to understanding at least
some of the movie. The dubbing is an atrocity, so I can imagine how
someone would dismiss the movie as crap after listening to it.
What is this Wudan text they keep mentioning?
The martial arts "text" is usually a big part of WUXIA genre films,
which are supposed to contain forbidden knowledge to allow
supernatural attainment in mastery of martial arts skill. This is a
fairly common theme and usually one or more protagonists are always
fighting to gain this knowledge.
"What is this Giang Hu place they keep talking about?"
Giang Hu is sort of like the inner society in which these martial
artists and villains who have attained this superhuman mastery live
in. Compare it to like the western comic book world..you have heroes
and supervillains that regularly battle each other and rarely do
normal people get involved with their conflict.
"Why did Jen steal the sword in the first place?"
She's a repressed daughter of a rich noble, she learned the secrets of
the WUXIA type martial arts only coincidentally when she was young.
She later rebels by stealing the sword and wants to try her hand at it
herself in the real world, thus she plunges herself into the Giang Hu
society once she reveals her abilities.
"What is the relationship between Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien?"
Li Mu Bai used to be a comrade or friend of Shu Lien's husband, Shu
Lien's husband died. Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien apparently went on a lot
of adventures together and became close but they have repressed their
feelings for each other. A lot of this romantic involvement is not
fully illustrated and Ang Lee has expressed his desire to make a
prequel for CTHD to explore this dynamic further. A lot of this has to
do with honor since they don't want to dishonor Shu Lien's dead
husband. In ancient China it wasn't at all unusual for widows to
grieve for their whole lives without remarrying, it was part of the
repressed culture.
"What is the relationship between Jade Fox and Jen?"
Jade Fox apparently was the secret "tutor" and motherly type maiden to
Jen when she was younger. Jen learned martial arts from her by
watching at 10 and was later tutored but she was a natural "prodigy"
in learning the arts from the stolen WUDAN text. Jen was able to
supersede her master at learning the text. Apparently, Jade Fox was
grooming Jen to be her accomplice/apprentice for evil purposes later
on.
"Why did Jen jump at the end?"
There are many possible interpretations to this, the first is she
could have felt extreme guilt at having caused the death of Li Mu Bai.
Jumping from the cliff was her way of ultimate atonement and her wish
to make things as they were. The second interpretation is that she
wanted to leave the noble life behind and escape it all with Lo.
Ok in a nutshell that's about it.. I'm sure there's a lot more to add
to this mini faq but that's all I could think of off the top of my
head. Feel free to add your suggestions..
e-mail me at min...@raveworld.net
Joe Anstett
<Just kidding>
Joe
Flash
Because they were crouching and hidden.
--
**********************************************************
Remove the NOSPAM from my email address to send me email.
Steve
Joe Anstett <joe_a...@SPAMSUCKSemail.com> wrote:
> How come there were no tigers or dragons in it? I'm very disappointed.
>
> <Just kidding>
One is crouching behind the other, which happens to be hidden.
b o b c a t @ p a c i f i c . n e t . s g
Phil Educate
was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story), the
subtitles were the most inaccurate match to the English soundtrack I've ever
seen, and the plot was incredibly superficial. This film's critical and
popular raves amount to the most extreme example of unearned hype I have
ever witnessed.
<min...@blah.com> wrote in message news:3b2277f3...@news.pe.net...
El Queso
His movies are the best of the Wuxia pian genre. Yuen Woo Ping left the
same opera school Jackie Chan came out of - several years before Jackie
entered. The name Yuen is a name given to opera students - Yuen Woo
Ping, Cory Yuen, Yuen Biao.. all students.
On a side note - the wonderful Simon Yuen (Yuen Woo Ping's real-life
father) played the Drunken master in Jackie's famous movie of the same
name.
Cheers,
Queso
P.S. - My fave Wuxia flik is Iron Monkey, how about you?
El Queso
my favorite, just a decent genre entry.
If you thought the flying was stupid, you are criticising the entire
genre, not the movie. The same goes for the quality of translation. Have
you ever seen a HK fantasy action movie like: Zu, Iron Monkey, New
Legend of Shaolin, Kung Fu Cult Master, Fong Sai Yuk 1&2, The Swordsman
1&2, New Dragon Inn, and the Chinese Ghost Story movies? Most of these
movies are guilty of the same critiques, but every one of them is an
excellent movie. If you can't stand to see unusual images on-screen -
stick to crap-fests like Pearl Harbor. 100 million dollars, and I just
couldnt care less. Low-brow wankers like Bey and Bruckheimer are not fit
to lick the shoes of Tsui Hark, Ang Lee and other great HK directors.
So why don't you just say - I don't like Chinese movies?
Queso
JoeS
> I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the flying
> was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story), the
> subtitles were the most inaccurate match to the English soundtrack I've ever
> seen, and the plot was incredibly superficial. This film's critical and
> popular raves amount to the most extreme example of unearned hype I have
> ever witnessed.
So.....you didn't care for it that much?
What's the point of your post?
Joe
min...@blah.com
wrote:
>Nice post. I have been a huge fan of Yuen Woo Ping for about 13 years.
>His movies are the best of the Wuxia pian genre. Yuen Woo Ping left the
>same opera school Jackie Chan came out of - several years before Jackie
>entered. The name Yuen is a name given to opera students - Yuen Woo
>Ping, Cory Yuen, Yuen Biao.. all students.
> On a side note - the wonderful Simon Yuen (Yuen Woo Ping's real-life
>father) played the Drunken master in Jackie's famous movie of the same
>name.
>Cheers,
>Queso
>
>P.S. - My fave Wuxia flik is Iron Monkey, how about you?
>
I have several favorite WUXIA flicks..however my favorite of all time
isn't a flick but a WUXIA TV series that was broadcast in the 80's in
TaiwaN? I don't know the english translation of it and as far as I
know it has never been re-released. It was a pretty long running
series about 30+ hours of episodes. Anyway the details are a little
sketchy as I haven't seen the series in almost a decade, the plot was
that the hero/protagnist was raised by a mongolian Khan. He grew up
with them and then left with his own and then a very LONG plot ensues.
He discovers a manual that teaches him a very rare and powerful form
of martial arts.. they had some cheezy effect whenever he would do it.
Anyways, the series was pretty dramatic and lots of cool stuff
happened, it was a little soap operaish but overall it was well done.
Robert Dueck
and what color is the sky in your strange little world.
I bet you thought Alice in Wonderland was tripe and Gullivers Travels a
peice of trash.
It was a SWEET portayal of a Chinese fairy tale.
I bet you hated your childhood cause of how useless it was.
Phil Educate wrote in message
<72F21FE7F2F0A18D.76B5BC52...@lp.airnews.net>...
Eric Neale
<snip>
> Well, the subtitles only translated correctly about 80% of the literal
> meaning of the mandarin dialogue. Much of Chinese can only be
> awkwardly translated into English for westerner's to understand.
> Chinese is kind of like poetry in a way, its meaning varies
> significantly with tone, nuance, and context. Subtitles don't do the
> movie justice, but it's the closest thing to understanding at least
> some of the movie. The dubbing is an atrocity, so I can imagine how
> someone would dismiss the movie as crap after listening to it.
Great post. I recomend you get the DVD and turn on the subtitles. You
can read one translation and listen to another at the same time. It is
cool!
Good Luck - Eric
Delus
I guess I can't complain about the flying in the movie. I mean the stuff that
us others see, yeah me too, like box office action hits with people just somehow
never getting hit with all those flying bullets.
I saw only part of the movie on tape at a store, but during some flying around
in the trees one of the swordpersons, the girl, went into a cool looking
floating stage in the soft leaves on all those branches. Like the gliding you
mentioned.
-----
Delus
Shuurai
Phil Educate says...
>
> I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the flying
>was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story),
What the "flying" added to the story is that it added to the WUXIA mythos.
They were able to fly because they were enlightened warriors. Saying that
it added nothing to the story is like saying that the Force added nothing
to Star Wars.
>the
>subtitles were the most inaccurate match to the English soundtrack I've ever
>seen,
You try translating it.
>and the plot was incredibly superficial.
Write something better.
>This film's critical and
>popular raves amount to the most extreme example of unearned hype I have
>ever witnessed.
Your assessment is an extreme example of ignorance.
Liam Devlin
Why don't you switch over to the WWF?
LiamD
Mordant
Tiger Hidden Dragon...or at least didn't love it.
I'm surprised, given the movies listed below, that you liked Crouching
Tiger. It had the potential to be great, but I've got to go with "overated"
feel. I prefer mid power movies like Fong Sai Yuk, but can romp along with
a good high power flick like swordsman. The problem with the flying in
Crouching Tiger wasn't that the flying itself was stupid ( I always use
Superman flying to defend the standing on heads fight in Fong Sai Yuk - just
part of the mithos) it's that it was poorly done. With such a great budget
there was no reason for the flying and jumping to be so obviously on wires.
What is great about films like Fong Sai Yuk is that they put effort into
making it look almost possible. Crouching Tiger's stuff just looked fake,
and detracted from the movie. Like seeing a wire hanging from the Death
Star. We know its not real, but we want to believe, and just ask that you
make some attempt at fooling us.
The one flying type scene in Crouching that worked for me was in the
treetops. I'm still trying to figure out if that was just because there is
something just simply believable about Chow Fat no matter what he is
doing....or if that scene was just better done.
"El Queso" <the_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3B217130...@yahoo.com...
P.F.
> ever
> seen,
Why should the subtitles match the English soundtrack? The subs are a
translation of the orginal language. The English dub is derived from it, but
changing things for lip-sync purposes.
It's the dub thats inaccurate, not the subtitles.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>Nice post. I have been a huge fan of Yuen Woo Ping for about 13 years.
>His movies are the best of the Wuxia pian genre. Yuen Woo Ping left the
>same opera school Jackie Chan came out of - several years before Jackie
>entered. The name Yuen is a name given to opera students - Yuen Woo
>Ping, Cory Yuen, Yuen Biao.. all students.
> On a side note - the wonderful Simon Yuen (Yuen Woo Ping's real-life
>father) played the Drunken master in Jackie's famous movie of the same
>name.
>Cheers,
>Queso
>
>P.S. - My fave Wuxia flik is Iron Monkey, how about you?
>
Actually, Yuen Wo Ping hasn't done too many wuxia films. Most of his films
are more along the lines of old-school kung-fu films, not wuxia. Yes, they
all involve martial arts and are usually in period setting, but there are
significant differences.
One way to look at it is the difference between typical action adventure
fare vs epic medieval-like chivalrous fantasy like Arthurian adventures,
LOTR, even Star Wars, etc. And w/in wuxia, there's also a finer distinction
between fantastical wuxia like Zu, Chinese Ghost Story and many pre-70's HK
films and traditional wuxia from the mid-60's through late 70's (and its
small number of new wave offsprings since then). As Ian points out in a
separate thread, CTHD is actually quite unique for bringing us back to the
traditional wuxia roots while blending in romance and such subjects not
previously explored in those old films, but were explored in similarly old
melodramas. So no, Iron Monkey is not a wuxia flik and neither is any of
Jackie Chan's better-known films, including both Drunken Master films.
Also, many of the HK action film folks w/ surname Yuen are indeed part of
the Yuen family/clan headed by the long past-away Simon Yuen, ie. Wo Ping's
father. Yuen Biao is not one of them although he was an opera student in
the same school w/ Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung (and 4 others). IIRC, some of
these students got their Yuen name through the opera school, and this name
is actually totally different from the one for the Yuen clan.
_Man_
--
Please remove **NOSPAM** from my address to reply by email.
Dale Hicks
som...@nospam.com says...
> What is great about films like Fong Sai Yuk is that they put effort into
> making it look almost possible. Crouching Tiger's stuff just looked fake,
> and detracted from the movie. Like seeing a wire hanging from the Death
> Star. We know its not real, but we want to believe, and just ask that you
> make some attempt at fooling us.
I wonder if the people flapping their legs while sailing added to that.
I know long-jumpers will do this, but as effortless as they were leaping,
I thought they should just do the ballet split legs move while sailing
from rooftop to rooftop.
> The one flying type scene in Crouching that worked for me was in the
> treetops. I'm still trying to figure out if that was just because there is
> something just simply believable about Chow Fat no matter what he is
> doing....or if that scene was just better done.
While actually in the trees was good, but the CGI before and after was
annoying.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Bob Bohling
Charlie's Angels. He is speaking about the use of the cables to fly actors
through the air. He refers to their use in the Matrix and that they took
the effect from many years of use in the Hong Kong cinema and refers to
characters ability to fly is a common theme of Asian fantasy/legends.
I enjoyed the movie and have had little/no experience with the genre.
Michele Yeoh (sp?) explained in her interview (supplements) that the flying
is a common theme in their legends and this is what they grew up seeing and
hopes that people will understand something of their heritage. It may not
be what we are used to seeing, but I enjoyed it and would like to see it
again. I watched the subtitled version and will try the dubbed next.
Visually, I thought it was a beautiful film and I loved the locations.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>I have several favorite WUXIA flicks..however my favorite of all time
>isn't a flick but a WUXIA TV series that was broadcast in the 80's in
>TaiwaN? I don't know the english translation of it and as far as I
>know it has never been re-released. It was a pretty long running
>series about 30+ hours of episodes. Anyway the details are a little
>sketchy as I haven't seen the series in almost a decade, the plot was
>that the hero/protagnist was raised by a mongolian Khan. He grew up
>with them and then left with his own and then a very LONG plot ensues.
>He discovers a manual that teaches him a very rare and powerful form
>of martial arts.. they had some cheezy effect whenever he would do it.
>Anyways, the series was pretty dramatic and lots of cool stuff
>happened, it was a little soap operaish but overall it was well done.
>
Is this a Taiwanese adaptation or the HK TVB version from circa 1983? The
story you're talking about comes from Louis Cha's (aka Jing Yong) arguably
best/most popular novel series whose title is often translated as Legend of
the Eagle (or Condor) Shooting Heroes. It's actually a trilogy series w/ a
lesser middle portion often called Eagle Shooting Hero and His Mate (a poor
translation) followed by the also very popular final portion called Heaven
Sword and Dragon Sabre. Usually, as Ian pointed out elsewhere, these wuxia
stories are poorly adapted for the big screen, but this trilogy did receive
some of the best film adaptations ever. They were done in a 3-parter called
The Brave Archer followed by Brave Archer and His Mate in the late 70's
through early 80's. A separate 2-part installment was also done for Heaven
Sword and Dragon Sabre in the late 70's. Too bad none of these are
currently available to the general public.
And yes, TV adaptations are generally a little soap opera-ish, but it's all
part of their charm.
If you're interested in the HK TVB serial adaptation--actually, there've
been multiple versions like once every decade--you might want to check this
site:
http://www.spcnet.tv/index.html
Currently, the popular '83 version is available on VCD box sets.
Unfortunately, they have been recut to shorter length and are not subtitled
AFAIK. There also might be Mandarin versions available somewhere targeted
at the mainland Chinese market. I'm hoping they will release a full, uncut
version on DVD some day in the not too distant future.
Donna Grayson
bit more passionate. To me it did not seem that the feelings they had
for eachother came across in the scenes. Usually with a story like
that, everyone would be crying because of the sadness of it all - but
I did not see that reaction in the audience.
I enjoyed the flying scenes and thought they were well done and
believable. But the tree scene was alittle too long.
Donna
Homepage - http://www.donnagrayson.com
MP3 page- http://www.mp3.com/donnagrayson
El Queso
period martial arts movies. I never said Woo Ping was only a Wuxia
director. I said his Wuxia movies are IMHO the best there are. I have
watched HK movies since about 1984, and have seen hundreds of them in
most genres. I am not a fanatic, but I had a friend who lived next to a
Chinese video store.
I just saw Time and Tide in the theatre and I am looking forward to
watching Tsui Hark's new ZU 2. How about you?
Queso
El Queso
glorious endorsement. I am an Iron Monkey fan.
Queso
Peter Briggs
Ian McDowell
>Nice post. I have been a huge fan of Yuen Woo Ping for about 13 years.
>His movies are the best of the Wuxia pian genre. Yuen Woo Ping left the
>same opera school Jackie Chan came out of - several years before Jackie
>entered. The name Yuen is a name given to opera students - Yuen Woo
>Ping, Cory Yuen, Yuen Biao.. all students.
> On a side note - the wonderful Simon Yuen (Yuen Woo Ping's real-life
>father) played the Drunken master in Jackie's famous movie of the same
>name.
You're confusing your Yuens. The "Yuen Clan" that Yuen Woo-Ping belongs
to came by the name naturally, being born to it. Woo-Ping's father was
Yuen Siu Tin, aka Simon Yuen, the actual title character in DRUNKEN MASTER
(just as William Powell didn't play the Thin Man) and a veteran of the old
black and white Wong Fei-Hung films that were made from the 40's to the
60's, where his co-stars included Kwan Tak-Hing (who played Wong, the
character who later revived the careers of Jackie Chan and Jet Li), Shek
Kin (ENTER THE DRAGON's Mr. Han), and Bruce Lee's father Lee Hoi Chuen.
While his background was in Peking Opera, it wasn't the same school that
Jackie Chan came out of (the fact that his son Woo-Ping made Jackie a star
in SNAKE IN EAGLE'S SHADOW and DRUNKEN MASTER confuses the issue a bit).
In the 80's, Yuen Woo-Ping directed a couple of entries in the IN THE LINE
OF DUTY series and trained Donnie Yen. In the 90's, Woo-Ping became one
of the two most-lauded practitioners of wire-enhanced choreography (the
other is Ching Siu-Tung, the nominal director of A CHINESE GHOST STORY),
and as either director or action director worked with such stars as Jet Li
and Michelle Yeoh on films like THE TAI-CHI MASTER, FIST OF LEGEND, WING
CHUN and ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA 2. In a sense, THE MATRIX was a "show
reel" of his greatest hits, as the Wachoski brothers had him recreate many
specific sequences from his past work.
Jackie Chan came out of the Seven Little Fortunes Peking Opera School,
which was run by Yu Jim Yuen, no relation to Yuen Siu Tin. Jackie's
classmates included Sammo Hung, Yuen Biao, Corey Yuen (choreographer of
THE X-MEN and the upcoming KISS OF THE DRAGON), Yuen Wah, and Yuen Tak.
Many of Jim Yuen's former students took the name "Yuen" in honor of their
one-time master. Jackie and Sammo did not; in Jackie's case, it may be
because his love/hate relationship with Jim Yuen seems to have, when
Jackie was younger, tipped more towards the "hate" side of the scale, due
to the cruelty that Jackie suffered at the elder Yuen's hands (Sammo Hung
and Yuen Biao suffered less, possibly because Sammo was bigger and older
and would have been best able to fight back, and because Biao, conversely,
was younger and particularly liked by their master).
Their careers have intersected, but there's no linear relationship between
the Seven Little Fortunes and the Yuen Clan.
Steve
"Mordant" <som...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Wait, I'm a fan of Chinese HK action films, and I didn't like Crouching
> Tiger Hidden Dragon...or at least didn't love it.
>
> I'm surprised, given the movies listed below, that you liked Crouching
> Tiger. It had the potential to be great, but I've got to go with "overated"
> feel. I prefer mid power movies like Fong Sai Yuk, but can romp along with
> a good high power flick like swordsman. The problem with the flying in
> Crouching Tiger wasn't that the flying itself was stupid ( I always use
> Superman flying to defend the standing on heads fight in Fong Sai Yuk - just
> part of the mithos) it's that it was poorly done. With such a great budget
> there was no reason for the flying and jumping to be so obviously on wires.
> What is great about films like Fong Sai Yuk is that they put effort into
> making it look almost possible. Crouching Tiger's stuff just looked fake,
> and detracted from the movie. Like seeing a wire hanging from the Death
> Star. We know its not real, but we want to believe, and just ask that you
> make some attempt at fooling us.
I think the flying scenes looked fake because of the way it was shot and
edited.
Ian McDowell
>I'm surprised, given the movies listed below, that you liked Crouching
>Tiger. It had the potential to be great, but I've got to go with "overated"
>feel. I prefer mid power movies like Fong Sai Yuk, but can romp along with
>a good high power flick like swordsman. The problem with the flying in
>Crouching Tiger wasn't that the flying itself was stupid ( I always use
>Superman flying to defend the standing on heads fight in Fong Sai Yuk - just
>part of the mithos) it's that it was poorly done. With such a great budget
>there was no reason for the flying and jumping to be so obviously on wires.
A google search will show that many people who are fans of Wuxia _novels_
like CTHD far more than they like most Hong Kong attempts at the genre.
Indeed, Louis Cha (Jin Yon), the all-time bestselling Chinese novelist and
the Louis L'Amou/Robert Louis Stevenson/Edgar Rice Burroughs/Alexandre
Dumas of the genre, has gone on record as saying he prefers CTHD to any
film adaptation of his own work (which include SWORDSMAN and SWORDSMAN
2). Interestingly, CTHD also seems to have scored higher with Taiwanese
viewers than Hong Kong ones (although it didn't "fail" in the HSKAR -- the
claim that it "bombed in Asia" is largely a myth of the Western press). I
love both HK cinema and CTHD, but it's clear that somewhat different
cultural sensibilities are at work.
Re: the "flying" --more appropriately, "weightless leaping" or Qigong.
Many HK movies have been relatively brief and halting in their depiction
of Qigong, almost as if the directors were embarassed by it. When Leslie
Cheung lifts the fallen Brigitte Lin in BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR and rises
out of the frame like Superman, the sequence is over very quickly, and an
uninformed viewer can be forgiven for thinking that Cheung has merely
taken some kind of superhuman leap. Even the films that feature extended
Qigong sequences, like the elaborate aerial dogfights between Brigitte Lin
and Gong Li in SEMI-GODS AND DEMI-DEVILS (aka THE DRAGON CHRONICLES),
depict this ability mainly through close-ups and employ lots of quick
cuts.
CTHD is different, perhaps even revolutionary. The ability to digitally
remove the wires needed for the Qigong sequences allowed Ang Lee, Yuen
Woo-Ping and Peter Pau to use thicker cables and to thus shoot the scenes
in long, uninterrupted takes, with lots of long and medium shots. It's
the first time I've seen this kind of zero-gravity combat done in what I'd
almost call an "old school kung fu" manner, albeit without the metronomic
1-2-3 quality that can make a Shaw Brothers fight sequence seem stilted to
modern eyes.
More importantly, the sequences have, for me at least, the poetic, oneric
quality that Ang Lee was after, the "dream of China" that he speaks of in
various interviews (I don't know about you, but this how I move in my
dreams, at least the good ones). I don't think that CTHD is a better
movie than, say, BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, but I find its action sequences
more lyrical and satisfying than Ronny Yu's jerky blurr-o-vision. I'm not
sure that CTHD's action sequences are necessarily _better_ than those in
SWORDSMAN 2 or THE EAST IS RED or DUEL TO THE DEATH, but they're
intriquingly different, with a gliding smoothness those films lack, and
they work far better in this particular context than the older, more
disjointed style would have.
So, de gustibus and all that.
Rutgar
wrote:
Flying scenes believable?!?! Are you kidding? You could all but
see the stinking wires! Hell, Mary Martin's flights were more
believable in the stage production of Peter Pan!
- Rutgar
Ian McDowell
Man and Natalie)" <mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net> wrote:
>Actually, Yuen Wo Ping hasn't done too many wuxia films. Most of his films
>are more along the lines of old-school kung-fu films, not wuxia. Yes, they
>all involve martial arts and are usually in period setting, but there are
>significant differences.
Woo-Ping's career has lasted long enough to embrace so many styles and
genres -- is CTHD really his first "real" Wuxia movie? What an odd
thought. In the 70's, he did traditional gongfu with a comedy twist. In
the 80's, he did hardhitting contemporary action films. In the 90's, he
became known for his wirework. Granted, this decade also blurred the
boundaries somewhat, bringing wires and Qigong-like sequences to subject
matter (such as ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA 2) that would in the past have
been called Gongfu Pian rather than Wuxia Pian.
Some people are using "Wuxia" to mean "any kung fu film in which the
heroes defy gravity." That is, of course, not accurate, but it's easy to
understand such confusion, especially after 1990, when ONCE UPON A TIME IN
CHINA adapted techniques originally developed for such fantasy-oriented
films as A CHINESE GHOST STORY to "realistic" subject matter.
Ian McDowell
Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net> wrote:
>I wonder if the people flapping their legs while sailing added to that.
>I know long-jumpers will do this, but as effortless as they were leaping,
>I thought they should just do the ballet split legs move while sailing
>from rooftop to rooftop.
Most of the written descriptions of Qigong (which, granted, I can only
read in translation) stress the concept of "walking on air" as much as
"light skills" or "weightless leaping," and the moving legs seem to be
part of this. It also ties in with the sequence's dreamlike quality.
When I fly in my dreams, I don't do it by stiffly soaring like Superman;
in a way, it seems more like swimming, with a fair amount of arm and leg
movement. I thought Lee and Yuen captured this feeling remarkably well.
Ian McDowell
Bohling" <rbohling437@{NOSPAM}home.com> wrote:
>If I am not mistaken, Ping is included in the supplemental section of
>Charlie's Angels. He is speaking about the use of the cables to fly actors
>through the air. He refers to their use in the Matrix and that they took
>the effect from many years of use in the Hong Kong cinema and refers to
>characters ability to fly is a common theme of Asian fantasy/legends.
His surname is Yuen, not Ping (or Woo or Woo-Ping). Presumably, he's Mr.
Yuen to those who don't know him, Woo-Ping to his friends.
I've not seen the CHARLIE'S ANGELS DVD, but wasn't it actually one of his
brothers (or sons or cousins) who choreographed that movie? The "Yuen
Clan" is quite large, and by now includes members who don't even share the
Yuen name, especially after he assembled such a large team for THE MATRIX.
Ian McDowell
cityg...@yahoo.com (Donna Grayson) wrote:
>I enjoyed the movie, though I wish the romance would have been alittle
>bit more passionate. To me it did not seem that the feelings they had
>for eachother came across in the scenes. Usually with a story like
>that, everyone would be crying because of the sadness of it all - but
>I did not see that reaction in the audience.
Interesting how mileage varies. When I first saw the film at Lincoln
Center, as partof the New York Film Festival, there were lots of tears at
the end. A Mrs. Thurston Howell look-alike in a mink stole asked Toune if
she could spare a kleenix, and Toune later said that the ladies' room was
full of crying women.
Months later, here in Greensboro, NC, the audience at a 7:30 p.m. Sunday
show was so devastated by the ending that the teenaged ushers kept
remarking, as everybody filed out, "how come these people are crying?
Isnt this a _fighting_ movie?"
Interestingly, at neither showing was there much if any giggling or
sneering at the "flying" sequences. The New York audience might have
thought themselves above such things, but the North Carolina audience was
interestingly diverse, being a mixture of collegiate types, whole
families, teenagers, and homeboys. The latter two groups didn't do much
crying, but they were pretty absorbed.
John Harkness
wrote:
>In article <df8f757d.01060...@posting.google.com>,
>cityg...@yahoo.com (Donna Grayson) wrote:
>
>>I enjoyed the movie, though I wish the romance would have been alittle
>>bit more passionate. To me it did not seem that the feelings they had
>>for eachother came across in the scenes. Usually with a story like
>>that, everyone would be crying because of the sadness of it all - but
>>I did not see that reaction in the audience.
>
>Interesting how mileage varies. "
>
>Interestingly, at neither showing was there much if any giggling or
>sneering at the "flying" sequences. The New York audience might have
>thought themselves above such things, but the North Carolina audience was
>interestingly diverse, being a mixture of collegiate types, whole
>families, teenagers, and homeboys. The latter two groups didn't do much
>crying, but they were pretty absorbed.
When I saw the film for the third time at a Toronto multiplex -- after
it had been playing a couple of months, I was paying attention to the
audience -- about 2/3rds full at a Saturday matinee -- and at the end
of the first fight sequence between Yeoh and Zhang, I heard something
I don't think I'd ever heard before -- a whole room of people exhaling
simultaneously.
John Harkness
Robert Dueck
Steve wrote in message ...
trotsky
Yeah, they should take away that Oscar for cinematography. Not.
Carlucci
> I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the flying
> was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story),
Jeebus Christ! Talk about somebody missing the fucking point entirely. Have
you EVER seen an old-school kung fu movie? EVER?! The flying is an integral
part of it and generates a "super-human", if you will, aura about those who
do it! Like when people watch Black Mask and ask why there is so much
flying, it's obvious that they missed a BIG part of the story. The people in
Black Mask were flying because they were in fact super-human creations, and
they had insane physical abilities, one of which was MAD ups! If you look
carefully, you'll see pretty easily that not everybody in these movies is
flying around! Only the people that OBVIOUSLY have extraordinary martial
arts prowess within the movie are ever flying! Average joes are putting
rubber on the pavement just like you and me, walking around from place to
place, because they can't fly! They don't got the skills to fly, so you
won't see them doing it.
>and the plot was incredibly superficial.
Do you even know what the plot was? Honest question, did you actually pick
up on the story? For first-time vieweres of HK cinema, it's usually hard to
pick up on things the first time around, especially with subtitles. I
watched it in the theatre when it first came out, and last night I had some
friends over to watch it that had never seen it before. They were so busy
reading subtitles and watching action sequences that more than a few times I
had to pause the movie and fill them in on subtle details they had missed.
It's easy to overlook an important aside in someone's speech when you have
to read subtitles. In fact, I saw a few things the second time around that
i'd totally missed the first time. This happens with most movies, but even
moreso with a movie like CTHD, because of the subtitles and the incredible
action sequences.
This film's critical and
> popular raves amount to the most extreme example of unearned hype I have
> ever witnessed.
I felt that the reviews didn't do enough justice to certain parts of the
movie. You realise of course that some parts of the action sequences and
stuff were real, yes? I felt that the martial arts skills in the movie that
were real didn't get enough attention, probably because 99.9% of people
watching the film couldn't tell the difference between what actually was
real and what wasn't, which is good because it means that the wires that
WERE used were used in such a way that they blended fantasy and reality into
one and the same, to the point where fantasy was obvious, but reality was
questioned because of the sheer obviousness of the fantasy! For instance,
the fight scene between Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi (I think that's her
name), where Zhang has the green destiny and Yeoh is trying to get it back
(not in the beginning, but the one where Chow Yun Fat interferes, near the
end or so), do you remember the parts where like Yeoh would try and smash a
table that Zhang was on or something like that, and Zhang would jump off and
twist herself around a few times and fall to the ground? A large portion of
that fight scene was real, including the twists. But because of all of the
scenes previous that WERE fake, the audience starts to wonder about what is
and isn't fake, and they no longer are able to tell!
I've said this before, but I think that the use of wires in CTHD was so
masterfully done that it causes audiences to question reality because so
much was obviously fake, but then other things were not so obviously fake,
that it makes people wonder, "what if?"....
And for those that ARE wondering "what if", check out the videos on these
websites:
www.bilang.com
www.yellwboy.com
Everything you see on those websites IS real. 100% no strings attached. Any
of it look familiar from Hong Kong style action movies? Some of it should...
The story itself was excellent, too. They don't jump out and tell you what's
going down like in some movies, which is good, cause you have to pay
attention. For instance, most people would completely miss the fact that
Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh are in love but NOT married the first time
the movie goes through. There are only like two or three references to
Yeoh's dead husband throughout, and they are cheifly asides that most people
would forget about because they were blindly reading subtitles! Most
everybody picks up on the fact that Fat and Yeoh are in love, though, it's
the whole thing where they can't be open about it because of her dead
husband that people miss most of the time.
Check it out, I don't have a problem if people just didn't care for the
movie, but ignorant statements like "the flying was stupid and unnecessary"
just show that people totally missed the point of the movie. At the very
least I think people should try and understand a movie before they bitch
about it.
Luc...@Prodigy.net
If you want to be a winner, all you have to give is everything you've got.
Steve
"Robert Dueck" <du...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Ill ruin the secret............it was fake.
What?!!!!! Ropes?!!!! Wires?!!!! Nooooo!!!!
Ang Lee presented the "flying" sequences with many lingering, wide angle
shots. This, instead of the usual frantic, five angles per second method.
It is easier for the mind to fill in the ropes and wires when the eyes
see too much.
This is merely an observation, not a complaint.
Steve
> Ill ruin the secret............it was fake.
What?!!!!! Ropes?!!!! Wires?!!!! Nooooo!!!!
Ang Lee presented the "flying" sequences with many lingering, wide angle
shots. This, instead of the usual frantic, five angles per second method.
It is easier for the mind to fill in the ropes and wires when the eyes
see too much.
This is merely an observation, not a complaint.
b o b c a t @ p a c i f i c . n e t . s g
Steve
trotsky <gsi...@qwestonline.com> wrote:
> Yeah, they should take away that Oscar for cinematography. Not.
That fine cinematography didn't hide the fact that the stunts employed
traditional ropes and wires. Everyone can guess how the effect is
achieved. Whenever a charactor leaps, you can, in a sense, see the pull
of the wire. Indeed, the charactor often has to do several leaps in one
long, continous shot. This could be challenging for the photographer who
has to capture the action on film. The resulting footage while offering
great entertainment, also reveals other details.
A lot of the visual effects in Coppola's 'Dracula' looked extremely
fake, but it gave that movie a certain look and mood the director
intended.
I am not saying the fake-lookin' "flying" in CTHD failed the movie. I am
merely offering a suggestion why it looked the way it did.
Peace.
Pony
still know how to handle a sword.
Dale Hicks
ian...@mindspring.com says...
> In article <df8f757d.01060...@posting.google.com>,
> cityg...@yahoo.com (Donna Grayson) wrote:
>
> >I enjoyed the movie, though I wish the romance would have been alittle
> >bit more passionate.
Cultural, no doubt, but I got every nuance that Michelle laid on with her
face.
> Interesting how mileage varies. When I first saw the film at Lincoln
> Center, as partof the New York Film Festival, there were lots of tears at
> the end. A Mrs. Thurston Howell look-alike in a mink stole asked Toune if
> she could spare a kleenix, and Toune later said that the ladies' room was
> full of crying women.
Where I assume Toune is the wife/gf.
> Interestingly, at neither showing was there much if any giggling or
> sneering at the "flying" sequences.
In Florida, there was the requisite crying, I believe, but nothing
overwhelming. Oddly enough, I (who have watched quite a few genre
movies) was the hardest chuckler over the flying, but that was only when
CYF took the "Superman pose".
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
> brothers (or sons or cousins) who choreographed that movie?
Cheung-Yan Yuen, according to IMDB.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
> Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >I wonder if the people flapping their legs while sailing added to that.
>
> read in translation) stress the concept of "walking on air" as much as
> "light skills" or "weightless leaping,"
Thanks for this and all the other info. Seems nice to talk about it
without all of the vitriol. It's hard figuring out how much of your info
I want to save for reference.
> When I fly in my dreams, I don't do it by stiffly soaring like Superman;
I don't fly in my dreams, so there. I imagine it would be like Supes,
though, if I did.
Another question: so much was made of CYF's and MY's struggle to get
unaccented Mandarin, what about the other principals? Chen Chang was
Taiwanese, right? And what is Cheng Pei Pei's origin? Did they have any
accents that people complained about with the aforementioned?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
NKCIUN...@spammotel.com says...
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:23:52 GMT, min...@blah.com wrote:
>
> >OK, i'm sick and tired of ignorant people criticizing this film over
I thought these were pretty self-explanatory to anyone that watched the
film, but I suppose some prior experience could have made grasping it
less daunting.
> >"Why did Jen steal the sword in the first place?"
Short answer is "for fun", I think. Of course, there was the whole
impetus into becoming a Giang Hu hero angle.
> >"Why did Jen jump at the end?"
And here I feel that in the movie I got to enjoy, at least, a big part of
this is the retribution, a sense of atonement for the evil she's caused,
and for the love she helped destroy. In my film, she dies (or floats off
to the gods, whatever) and is seen no more.
Now if we can only explain the plot hole of "why didn't Jade Fox simply
kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles". And
don't say she needed her as bait, as Li Mu Bai would have fought her even
if the girl was dead, in vengeance for his master.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
min...@blah.com
<mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net> wrote:
> the HK TVB version from circa 1983? The
>story you're talking about comes from Louis Cha's (aka Jing Yong) arguably
>best/most popular novel series whose title is often translated as Legend of
>the Eagle (or Condor) Shooting Heroes.
Yes it was the 1983 Legend of the Condor Heroes. I recently asked my
cousin about it who is pretty well versed in asian flicks and he
confirmed it. Anyways, this series rocked.. I saw it when I was about
10 but in my opinion it's classic and timeless. I'll probably end up
buying the boxed VCD sets. I saw them for sale on yesasia, anywhere
else to buy them too? (cheaper) The one I saw was in mandarin
chinese..i'm not sure if this was dubbing or is it naturally in
cantonese? I am fluent in mandarin so it would be doubly cool to get
this set.
Mordant
"Peter Briggs" <pe...@camshaft.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1euscdl.1jxolvv1lo10hrN%pe...@camshaft.demon.co.uk...
Mordant
fights really annoying. They are obvious and without a "real" context they
end up ruining that state of suspended disbelief that makes movies so
wonderful.
The Matrix was a good use of the wire effect. It was presenting something
that wasn't supposed to be real. It was taking place in a virtual setting,
a setting without the limitations of the mundane world. It was part of the
movie and the story, and I loved it.
Then Bullet time shows up in Art of War. No reason for it. Ditracts from
the movie. Breaks you out of the story and has you thinking "that came from
the Matrix (or HK movies for those with a more fun movie taste).
I buy into the superhero aspect of Black Mask, but the weird split kicks and
mid-air direction changes of Romeo Must Die were terrible. Jet can pull off
enough amazing stuff without the help of wire work.
Even the latest Segal film had to have them, and they really detract from
the few things that make Segal stand out.
I really liked the fights in Drive and he had the "Hard Drive" adrenaline
thing to explain his super powers.
Even the stuff in Charlies Angels was alright, because it was used more for
comic effect.
I was looking forward to light foot kung and super powers in CTHD, but did
not find the style pleasing. If there is a reason for it, do it, but do it
well - or don't bother. I don't want to see the butt lift first when
someone jumps to a rooftop. I'd rather they went back to reverse footage
like Bruce Lee used.
That's my rant. Oh, and as the CTHD guide for Dummies aspect... there was
an article in the Toronto Star or Sun explaining all the hidden symbols and
meanings in the movie. Two pages of the stuff. Garbage. Even Ang Lee was
quoted saying "Oh, I didn't see that" about some of the articles
"revelations". Don't get too carried away with the "depth" of the movie.
I guess that actually ends my rant. =)
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>In article <dp17itsv72mo6clqm...@4ax.com>,
>NKCIUN...@spammotel.com says...
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:23:52 GMT, min...@blah.com wrote:
>>
>> >"Why did Jen jump at the end?"
>
>And here I feel that in the movie I got to enjoy, at least, a big part of
>this is the retribution, a sense of atonement for the evil she's caused,
>and for the love she helped destroy. In my film, she dies (or floats off
>to the gods, whatever) and is seen no more.
>
Interestingly, this is not a typical wuxia ending, but more of a Chinese
melodrama ending--of course, I don't mean that this is unique to Chinese
melodrama, but just that it probably has its roots from the old Chinese
melodramas that Ang Lee grew up loving.
In a typical wuxia story, Jiaolong would more likely tried to redeem herself
by living a long hard life after the footsteps of Li Mu Bai in order to
honor him and his wish to have an heir to his discipline. She would also
try to redeem her other evils along the way. In such a scenario, she would
suffer much humiliation and hardship to overcome her past evils to become a
highly respect heroine warrior in the Giang Hu world. And she would
probably live a life more secluded from those she loves, including Xiao Hu
(aka Lo), than Li Mu Bai from his, eg. Shu Lien.
>
>Now if we can only explain the plot hole of "why didn't Jade Fox simply
>kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles". And
>don't say she needed her as bait, as Li Mu Bai would have fought her even
>if the girl was dead, in vengeance for his master.
>
At first, I was inclined to agree that there's a logic flaw, but not the one
you suggest. However, as I thought it through, I think it makes sense
afterall if you piece all the clues and genre conventions together.
Basically, I believe Jade Fox had a plan to teach Jiaolong a final lesson at
her death bed. If you recall from the scene where Jiaolong forced Jade Fox
to leave her for good after the whole sword return incidence, Jade Fox
inferred under her breath that she still had a lesson or two to teach her
young disciple even though the disciple has already far exceeded the master
in the martial arts. IMO, Jade Fox was precisely alluding to her plan to
kill Jiaolong.
When the time came, apparently, Jade Fox drugged Jiaolong first to ensure
that she will be a perfectly easy prey. That's what that little lamp
burning some red(?) powder near by was for--and Li Mu Bai kicked it into the
pond as soon as he realized what happened. But obviously, Jiaolong was
already a perfectly easy prey if Jade Fox only wanted to kill her since
Jiaolong was weak and tired and essentially comatose.
Now, here comes the genre convention that doesn't exactly play out in the
usual simplistic way. Jade Fox's plan was not merely to kill Jiaolong, but
to teach her a final lesson. Indeed, she most likely chose the typical
maniacal, big-ego villain route of preaching to the protagonist victim
before landing the final death blow--in this case, it's not about ego as
much as scorn and grief. But in order to do this, she needed Jiaolong to be
awake and alert enough to understand her pains as the wounded mother figure.
And if Jiaolong is to be awake and alert, Jade Fox will need to drug her to
ensure that she remains a perfectly easy prey.
Also realize that characters like Jade Fox are cowardly assassin types in
the wuxia world, so it makes perfect sense for her to take such pre-cautions
to ensure that Jiaolong will be an easy kill when she finally reveals her
hand and pour out her scornful heart. And I suppose her choice of poison
needles will allow her to expound at length about her loss AND perhaps w/
one last desparate hope to offer Jiaolong a chance to redeem herself and
rejoin the master upon hearing the whole story.
I was scratching my head a little about the whole sequence as well until
now. And now, that's my take on it.
_Man_
--
Please remove **NOSPAM** from my address to reply by email.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
It's originally in Cantonese. Hmmm... I just checked yesasia.com, and it
actually says that the set comes w/ both Mandarin and Cantonese tracks,
presumably mono on each channel, plus Chinese subs. However, this set is
unfortunately the cut/shortened version as I mentioned before.
Anyway, this is definitely my favorite TVB adaptation of a wuxia novel.
Even the theme music sung by Yan Nei and Roman Tam is classic. I don't
generally own soundtrack music CDs, but I have this one and love it.
Apparently, EMI re-released the soundtrack CD last year, so you might want
to get it also--and it's also available from yesasia.com.
FYI, the prices on yesasia.com seem to be full retail and significantly
higher than what I see in local NYC Chinatown shops. They're charging
$60-65US for each part of the 3-part series while NYC Chinatown shops
generally charge ~$45-50 each, IIRC. If you live near a big city w/ a local
Chinatown (or plan to visit one soon), you might want to wait to buy them
there.
As for myself, I will just wait until they come out w/ a full, uncut DVD
version of these series.
J. Alexander Panic
> OK, i'm sick and tired of ignorant people criticizing this film over
> the silliest reasons
Don't call them ignorant. Most of them are simply trying to understand the
movie, and why people like you and I love it so much.
> I'm going to address some of the more insipid questions i've seen
> first..
"Insipid." You are being extremely condescending toward those who, unlike
film geeks such as myself and you, don't quite get it.
> "Why are the actor's flying? I don't get it, it's so.. like..
> unrealistic!"
>
> This is part of the WUXIA mythos, the flying is a form of "Chi
> enlightenment" a superhuman mastery of martial arts and swordsmanship.
> They aren't literally "flying" but more like reducing their own
> gravity to be able to glide.
Dude, they're just lighter than us. Quit being so damn pretentious. They
can guide themselves. They're not like Superman. They can fly a few
(hundred) feet, and land somewhere else. They're good at balancing. I
think they may also be good naked, having sex.
> "CTHD copied the matrix!!"
Okay, I agree with you, there. The Matrix was the copy. The Matrix was
cool, but Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, in my humble opinion, got it
right.
> "The dialogue/script sucked!!"
>
> Well, the subtitles only translated correctly about 80% of the literal
> meaning of the mandarin dialogue.
Well, then 80% of it should be good. About 40% of the dialogue sucked big
cock. The characters should have been flushed out far better, and blaming
it on dubbing is idiotic. I know Mandarin Chinese, and the movie's
dialogue isn't the best. I still love the movie.
> "What is this Giang Hu place they keep talking about?"
>
> Giang Hu is sort of like the inner society in which these martial
> artists and villains who have attained this superhuman mastery live
> in. Compare it to like the western comic book world..you have heroes
> and supervillains that regularly battle each other and rarely do
> normal people get involved with their conflict.
Okay, and explain to me why, being that the filmmakers knew most of the
audience didn't know this, they didn't give even a slight explanation?
> "Why did Jen steal the sword in the first place?"
That's obvious. If anyone asked that, they're a fucking moron, and should
stick with Ace Ventura. Sorry to be all condescending.
> "What is the relationship between Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien?"
Blah, blah, blah. It's clearly described in the dubbed and subtitled
version of the film.
> "What is the relationship between Jade Fox and Jen?"
Also clearly described in dubbed and subtitled versions.
> "Why did Jen jump at the end?"
No one knows. Don't even try.
Love,
me
www.juicycerebellum.com
J.S.
"Phil Educate" <pedu...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:72F21FE7F2F0A18D.76B5BC52...@lp.airnews.net...
> I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the flying
> subtitles were the most inaccurate match to the English soundtrack I've
ever
> seen, and the plot was incredibly superficial. This film's critical and
> popular raves amount to the most extreme example of unearned hype I have
> ever witnessed.
>
arts movie fan but I thought it was a good story and awesome fighting
scenes. Sure when I first saw the jumping over buildings, climbing right up
the walls it was a little unreal. But much like the matrix "whoa", it is
fantasy folks. Relax and enjoy the ride. The superhero analogy was a good
one. I do agree on the english soundtrack though. I watched the movie with
subtitles and they came across decent. The english soundtrack just didnt
work for me. Definately watch it with the subtitles.
As far as unearned hype, common. There has got to be worse movies with un
earned hype that this. Gladiator comes to mind. I own the dvd for that and
still can't go back and watch more than a few parts of it without gagging,
wondering why they didnt edit this/that, write a whole new convincing script
etc. etc.
J.S.
GOU RONIN®
<pedu...@airmail.net> scribbled with their crayola:
> I don't care what anyone says.
I bet you're a high school guidence counsellor aren't you?
GOU RONIN® - The Unforgiven...
ICQ# - 49024165
AOL IM - GouRonin
mIRC - #americankenpo - On Dal.net
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/houseofronin.html
Dale Hicks
mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net says...
> >Now if we can only explain the plot hole of "why didn't Jade Fox simply
> >kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles".
>
> her death bed.
Okay, I'll buy that. Thanks, Man.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
min...@blah.com
Panic) wrote:
>
>Don't call them ignorant. Most of them are simply trying to understand the
>movie, and why people like you and I love it so much.
I mean ignorant in a nice way, as in uninformed.
>"Insipid." You are being extremely condescending toward those who, unlike
>film geeks such as myself and you, don't quite get it.
Some of the questions are insipid..such as the matrix comparisons.
>Dude, they're just lighter than us. Quit being so damn pretentious. They
>can guide themselves. They're not like Superman. They can fly a few
>(hundred) feet, and land somewhere else. They're good at balancing. I
>think they may also be good naked, having sex.
My description was basically what has been described in quite a few
WUXIA films and novels. I'm not pulling it out my ass and making up
some pseudo-scientific/supernatural definition.
>Well, then 80% of it should be good. About 40% of the dialogue sucked big
>cock. The characters should have been flushed out far better, and blaming
>it on dubbing is idiotic. I know Mandarin Chinese, and the movie's
>dialogue isn't the best. I still love the movie.
I know mandarin too..yes, the dialogue wasn't the greatest but there
was a lot of subtext, irony, and rhymes that the western audience
surely missed out on due to language difference. It gives the movie a
whole lot more flavor if they picked up on it.
>Okay, and explain to me why, being that the filmmakers knew most of the
>audience didn't know this, they didn't give even a slight explanation?
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was still mainly geared towards an asian
audience. It's still a pretty low-budget flick and Ang Lee wasnt all
that sure if the western part of the world would really like it that
much it. It wasn't a tailor made WUXIA flick for western audiences..it
was more of a labor of love by Ang Lee that ended up being popular.
>> "Why did Jen steal the sword in the first place?"
>
>That's obvious. If anyone asked that, they're a fucking moron, and should
>stick with Ace Ventura. Sorry to be all condescending.
I've seen the question asked before believe it or not, so I decided to
put it on there.
CodeWarrior
being dragged by wire over the roof -tops looked pretty silly even if that's
how it's "supposed" to be. I'm not a huge fan of wire-flicks (not that I've
seen many) but I recently saw Iron Monkey and was completely surprised at
how good it was, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the wire-work was well
done and the action and comedy was great. Can anyone recommend other films
as good as this? I hear Fong Sai Yuk is quite good, how does it compare with
Iron Monkey? And what about the sequels to these films.
I've also seen Fist of Legend, Once Upon Time In China and A Better
Tomorrow. The first two I didn't really like and the third I thought was
blatantly crap.
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.158ccc562...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> In article <3oCU6.953$RU2.4...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> som...@nospam.com says...
> > What is great about films like Fong Sai Yuk is that they put effort into
> > making it look almost possible. Crouching Tiger's stuff just looked
fake,
> > and detracted from the movie. Like seeing a wire hanging from the Death
> > Star. We know its not real, but we want to believe, and just ask that
you
> > make some attempt at fooling us.
>
> I wonder if the people flapping their legs while sailing added to that.
> I know long-jumpers will do this, but as effortless as they were leaping,
> I thought they should just do the ballet split legs move while sailing
> from rooftop to rooftop.
>
> > The one flying type scene in Crouching that worked for me was in the
> > treetops. I'm still trying to figure out if that was just because there
is
> > something just simply believable about Chow Fat no matter what he is
> > doing....or if that scene was just better done.
>
> While actually in the trees was good, but the CGI before and after was
> annoying.
>
> --
> Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
>
R. Cohen
the mood of a fairy tale. The flying element alone shouldn't be
enough to hate or love this film. I liked the film myself. I have a
question about the fight scenes though. How much is choreography,
film editing and special effect and how much is due to the karate
element? It all seemed very impressive but I admit I'm a neophyte.
GOU RONIN®
scribbled with their crayola:
>We know its not real, but we want to believe, and just ask that you
>make some attempt at fooling us.
I think I have been to that seminar.
GOU RONIN®
scribbled with their crayola:
>Jeebus Christ! Talk about somebody missing the fucking point entirely.
Go kick his ass baby! Yeah!
Dave T
(snip)
Ian, the depth of your knowledge amazes me (and I thought I knew a lot about
HK cinema). Another excellent post.
Do you have a website or a book or something?
--
Dave
This Post Brought To You By Dave-O-Vision
Quality Nonsense Since 1998
Mordant
as good (although it was apparently filmed and slapped together in a very
short time). If you are looking for something on a higher power level the
Swordsman films are fun, though I would say the second film is more fun.
Also check out Jackie Chan's Drunken Master 2...it's been released as an
english dub with the title Legend of Drunken Master, but stick to the
subtitiled version where possible. The Jet Li films have really suffered in
the english/american release.
Oh, I also really enjoyed New Hero From Shaolin...sort of a Jet does Lone
Wolf and Cub. The last fight scene with a guy in a weird tank is a little
off in my opinion, but the film was a lot of fun...and the little kid is
great.
"CodeWarrior" <code_w...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:9g1l9u$vkc$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Katswan
> OK, i'm sick and tired of ignorant people criticizing this film over
> mini faq about CTHD. I'm not proclaiming myself as the almighty all
> knowing asian film lore master so forgive me if some of my facts are
> wrong this is still very much the beginning of a work in progress.
In the spirit of it being a work in progress, I'll add a thought or two.
>
> <SPOILERS>
>
> I'm going to address some of the more insipid questions i've seen
> first..
>
> "What is this WUXIA thing?"
>
> WUXIA is a big part of Asian cinema culture and fantasy novels dating
> from as far back as the 1920's and maybe even before then. You can
> compare its popularity with asian countries along the lines of how
> popular sci-fi and fantasy novels are here in the U.S. The WUXIA genre
> is also the asian equivalent of superheroes when compared to their
> western counterparts. WUXIA has its own brand of mythos in which
> various martial artists learn through forbidden texts to attain a
> certain god like mastery of enlightenment and ability. They are beyond
> mortal abilities and have attained true mastery and control over their
> martial arts abilities.
Wuxia is to asian movies as westerns (cowboys and indians) used to be in
western movies--something every movie-maker does and every movie-goer
watches and understands. Sci-Fi may be a closer fit production-wise, but
it's not as popular in the west as wuxia is in the east.
>
> "Why are the actor's flying? I don't get it, it's so.. like..
> unrealistic!"
>
> This is part of the WUXIA mythos, the flying is a form of "Chi
> enlightenment" a superhuman mastery of martial arts and swordsmanship.
> They aren't literally "flying" but more like reducing their own
> gravity to be able to glide.
Like Batman, Spiderman, and the original Superman (he didn't fly, but
"jumped tall buildings with a single bound."
>
> "CTHD copied the matrix!!"
>
> Sigh, CTHD is based on the WUXIA genre, which has used the same theme
> of supernatural "flying" since the 1950's. I believe matrix premiered
> in april '99..sorry but the WUXIA genre predates the matrix by far.
> Also, the matrix is roughly based on Hong Kong style action, the
> wachowski brothers acknowledged Hong Kong cinema and anime as some of
> their inspirations. Also, Yuen Woo Ping is acknowledged as having
> worked the fight scenes in the Matrix thus giving it that Hong Kong
> feel which was intentional. Yuen Woo Ping has worked on WUXIA films
> and dozens of martial arts films before the Matrix as well.
Those who say Matrix is the original are just showing their western
ethnocentrism.
>
> "The dialogue/script sucked!!"
>
> Well, the subtitles only translated correctly about 80% of the literal
> meaning of the mandarin dialogue. Much of Chinese can only be
> awkwardly translated into English for westerner's to understand.
> Chinese is kind of like poetry in a way, its meaning varies
> significantly with tone, nuance, and context. Subtitles don't do the
> movie justice, but it's the closest thing to understanding at least
> some of the movie. The dubbing is an atrocity, so I can imagine how
> someone would dismiss the movie as crap after listening to it.
This movie could almost have worked without any dialogue at all. The
principals were amazing in what they conveyed with their eyes and body
language. The beauty of this film wasn't in the dialogue, it was in the
mood, the visuals, the fighting, the loving, the legend. I watched it
first in the theater with subtitles, and while I was sure I hadn't
gotten every nuance of the story, I was touched. We bought the DVD on
Saturday and watched it with the dubbing. I've seen some really bad
dubbing, and this was better than most. I picked up a few elements of
the story from the dubbing that I hadn't from trying to absorb and read
subtitles. I can see how some Americans would enjoy the movie more
dubbed, and I'm not enough of a snob to think they'd be wrong. You want
bad dubbing? Go watch a Japanese monster film.
>
> What is this Wudan text they keep mentioning?
>
> The martial arts "text" is usually a big part of WUXIA genre films,
> which are supposed to contain forbidden knowledge to allow
> supernatural attainment in mastery of martial arts skill. This is a
> fairly common theme and usually one or more protagonists are always
> fighting to gain this knowledge.
Watched it a 3rd time with the director's/writer's commentary on. They
explain that there's the text of the "text" and then there's the subtext
of the "text." So that even if you can read the "text" (which Jade Fox
could not do but Jen could), you won't get the full meaning without a
master to help you learn the subtext.
>
> "What is this Giang Hu place they keep talking about?"
>
> Giang Hu is sort of like the inner society in which these martial
> artists and villains who have attained this superhuman mastery live
> in. Compare it to like the western comic book world..you have heroes
> and supervillains that regularly battle each other and rarely do
> normal people get involved with their conflict.
>
> "Why did Jen steal the sword in the first place?"
>
> She's a repressed daughter of a rich noble, she learned the secrets of
> the WUXIA type martial arts only coincidentally when she was young.
> She later rebels by stealing the sword and wants to try her hand at it
> herself in the real world, thus she plunges herself into the Giang Hu
> society once she reveals her abilities.
She's also been somewhat tainted in her understanding of the morals and
values (part of the subtext of the "text") that go along with the skills
she's learned from Jade Fox. Jade Fox is hurt and angry over being
thought not good enough because she's female, and Jen has both felt that
herself and learned it from Jade Fox.
>
> "What is the relationship between Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien?"
>
> Li Mu Bai used to be a comrade or friend of Shu Lien's husband, Shu
> Lien's husband died. Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien apparently went on a lot
> of adventures together and became close but they have repressed their
> feelings for each other. A lot of this romantic involvement is not
> fully illustrated and Ang Lee has expressed his desire to make a
> prequel for CTHD to explore this dynamic further. A lot of this has to
> do with honor since they don't want to dishonor Shu Lien's dead
> husband. In ancient China it wasn't at all unusual for widows to
> grieve for their whole lives without remarrying, it was part of the
> repressed culture.
Shu Lien was never married, just engaged. But in China, that was enough
that she was the equivalent of married. And her fiance was like a
brother to Li Mu Bai, more than a friend. What made the relationship
between Shu Lien and Li Mu Bai the most impossible was that the fiance
had died in the process of saving Li Mu Bai's life. And while it was
cultural for a widow to "grieve their whole life" and not remarry, it
was not necessarily personal.
>
> "What is the relationship between Jade Fox and Jen?"
>
> Jade Fox apparently was the secret "tutor" and motherly type maiden to
> Jen when she was younger. Jen learned martial arts from her by
> watching at 10 and was later tutored but she was a natural "prodigy"
> in learning the arts from the stolen WUDAN text. Jen was able to
> supersede her master at learning the text. Apparently, Jade Fox was
> grooming Jen to be her accomplice/apprentice for evil purposes later
> on.
The director's commentary also explains the cultural element in eastern
culture that the student not exceed the Master. This is also related to
the subtext of the "text" which the Master always holds a little of back
from the student. The more the Master teaches, the more the Master also
learns, and so stays ahead of the student. Master doesn't mean perfect.
(Example, my kids take Taekwondo. Their "Master" is a fifth dan black
belt. While he is light years ahead of his young students, he is still
learning and studing from yet another more advanced "Master" and from
the repetition and chance to observe that teaching provides.)
>
> "Why did Jen jump at the end?"
>
> There are many possible interpretations to this, the first is she
> could have felt extreme guilt at having caused the death of Li Mu Bai.
> Jumping from the cliff was her way of ultimate atonement and her wish
> to make things as they were. The second interpretation is that she
> wanted to leave the noble life behind and escape it all with Lo.
> Ok in a nutshell that's about it.. I'm sure there's a lot more to add
> to this mini faq but that's all I could think of off the top of my
> head. Feel free to add your suggestions.
Even Ang Lee and the James Schamus don't commit to the meaning of this
in their commentary, although they do comment on leaving it open for a
sequel by not showing her hit bottom!. I like the fact that it's open to
interpretation (much like the ending of Titanic).
Katswan
Jon Drukman
>seen many) but I recently saw Iron Monkey and was completely surprised at
>how good it was, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the wire-work was well
>done and the action and comedy was great. Can anyone recommend other films
>as good as this? I hear Fong Sai Yuk is quite good, how does it compare with
>Iron Monkey? And what about the sequels to these films.
>I've also seen Fist of Legend, Once Upon Time In China and A Better
>Tomorrow. The first two I didn't really like and the third I thought was
>blatantly crap.
Fong Sai Yuk is fantastic. I don't really like the sequel though. (In
general I don't care for the sequels as much. Big shock there!)
Other HK film you should check out:
Tai Chi Master - Jet Li & Michelle Yeoh in one film, kicking amazing
amounts of ass. Fantastic.
Heroic Trio - Michelle Yeoh, Anita Mui & Maggie Cheung as black-clad
superheroines, kicking butt in a postapocalyptic warzone. Good fun.
Again, there is a sequel ("the executioners") and it's just awful.
Chinese Ghost Story - Classic. the sequels aren't terrible either.
Bride With White Hair - beautiful fairy tale gothic romance type
thing with crazy action. Skip the sequel.
Once Upon A Time In China & America - Jet Li in what is basically
the original HK version of the Jackie Chan/Owen Wilson "Shanghai
Noon."
High Risk - Jet Li in an HK remake of "Die Hard". Surprisingly
good and some nice potshots at Jackie Chan's "does all his own
stunts" image too.
New Legend Of Shaolin - I have almost no idea what's going on in
this one but it's really pretty to look at and the fight scenes
are spectacular.
That oughta get you started. Enjoy.
-jsd-
John Harkness
wrote:
>
>Fong Sai Yuk is fantastic. I don't really like the sequel though. (In
>general I don't care for the sequels as much. Big shock there!)
>
>Other HK film you should check out:
>
>Tai Chi Master - Jet Li & Michelle Yeoh in one film, kicking amazing
>amounts of ass. Fantastic.
If you're looking for this one, I believe it's been released as "Twin
Warriors" in the Jet Li edition -- directed by Yuen Woo Ping, with
what is for me, my all time favorite wire stunt.
John Harkness
Dale Hicks
says...
> Can anyone recommend other films
> as good as this? I hear Fong Sai Yuk is quite good, how does it compare with
> Iron Monkey? And what about the sequels to these films.
I think FONG SAI YUK I and II are both immensely better films than IRON
MONKEY. Much more humor, more interesting fights, etc.
As for fantastical kung fu, I think MY FATHER IS A HERO would be my third
favorite, behind the FSY films. Maybe OUATIC 2 as the next favorite, but
I need to rewatch the SWORDSMAN series, just to get a better feel for it.
> I've also seen Fist of Legend, Once Upon Time In China and A Better
> Tomorrow. The first two I didn't really like and the third I thought was
> blatantly crap.
But you shouldn't ask me. I thought these were good, although the first
two were overrated (IMO, to stop a flamewar).
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Chris
>
> kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles". And
> don't say she needed her as bait, as Li Mu Bai would have fought her even
> if the girl was dead, in vengeance for his master.
Jiaolong was stronger then Jade Fox, and Li Mu Bai was stronger then
Jiaolong. Jade Fox needed to eliminate Li Mu Bai, but to attack him
directly would have been suicide. She therefore forced him to
simultaneously defend both himself and the drugged Jiaolong from the
needle attack. He failed.
---
"The game of chess is like a swordfight. You must think first, before
you move."
Ian McDowell
T" <david.t...@NOBLOOMINSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>Ian, the depth of your knowledge amazes me (and I thought I knew a lot about
>HK cinema). Another excellent post.
>
>Do you have a website or a book or something?
I have two books, MORDRED'S CURSE (Avon, 1996) and MERLIN'S GIFT (Avon,
1997), but neither has anything to do with HK cinema. No website, either,
although I suppose I should get around to doing one, since my membership
at Dueling Modems (www.dm.net) gives me webspace as well as a newsgroup.
Lots of people know more about HK cinema than me and many of them have
websites. I'm particularly fond of Brian Naas's View from the Brooklyn
Bridge site, although the URL escapes me (Google should turn it up).
Ralph Jones
> min...@blah.com wrote in news:3b2277f3...@news.pe.net:
>
> > OK, i'm sick and tired of ignorant people criticizing this film over
> > the silliest reasons
>
> Don't call them ignorant. Most of them are simply trying to understand the
> movie, and why people like you and I love it so much.
>
A rare bit of insight in this arena. One of my pet hates in films is people who
try to make a genre film something else.
Making a genre film is an economic transaction. You aim at a narrow group of
viewers at the expense of turning off many of the "mainstream", and there's
nothing wrong with this. But there's plenty wrong with asserting that the
mainstream is just too dull-witted to realize the film "rises above" the genre.
That's just trying to cheat on the deal.
A great example occurred when I heard Martin Scorsese reminiscing about "Raging
Bull" on NPR. He ridiculed people who won't go to boxing movies, and talked
down -- way down -- about how RB wasn't a "boxing movie". Then he boasted for
fifteen minutes about the visual realism of his fight scenes. I'd say Emperor
Scorsese was buck-ass nekkid.
As far as I know, Ang Lee has been properly gracious about the matter, but I've
seen plenty of the condescension you refer to, coming from CTHD fans. Roger
Ebert, for example.
Personally, I just couldn't get interested in CTHD. My late mother-in-law told
me enough about China (she trained the nurses for the first modern med school
there) to know that there is hardly a color, number, animal, geological
formation or aliphatic hydrocarbon that doesn't symbolize something to a
Chinese...but I'm still nowhere close to understanding it. Good for those with
the linguistic fluency to get it; I'll just sit here and wonder why those
gravity-nullifiers don't get rich in basketball.
rj
Ian McDowell
>Chinese Ghost Story - Classic. the sequels aren't terrible either.
Although it's not really in the same genre as CTHD, A CHINESE GHOST STORY
has a somewhat similar romantic fairytale appeal and works, in my
experience, as an excellent introduction to Asian period fantasies. Along
with BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, it may be the best film to show to folks
who've seen CTHD and want to see "something like that." An excellent
example of how wirework, yards of floating silk, blue gels, fog, and
evocative music can combine for a kind of visual poetry that megabucks and
CGI simply can't duplicate. It's certainly a better follow-up to CTHD
than the Japanese ghost story KWAIDAN, which Ebert recommended on his show
to people who "want something like CROUCHING TIGER" (don't get me wrong,
KWAIDAN is a masterpiece, but it comes from a completey different cultural
tradition and has about as much similarity to CTHD as it does to LA
STRADA).
Unfortunately, it's harder to find than BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, but the
import DVD should be available from Amazon and various parallel
importers. It looks quite nice, but the subs are at times out of synch
with the Cantonese dialogue, which can be frustrating (I've not checked to
see if they're more in synch with the Mandarin track, as is sometimes the
case).
It works really well as a date movie, like BRIDE and CTHD and unlike some
martial arts and wuxia films (although I know quite a few women who got
into the genre because they were smitten with Jet Li -- many modern HK
action heroes are more "female friendly" than their US counterparts,
possibly because they tend to have really dazzling smiles).
Ian McDowell
Harkness) wrote:
>If you're looking for this one, I believe it's been released as "Twin
>Warriors" in the Jet Li edition -- directed by Yuen Woo Ping, with
>what is for me, my all time favorite wire stunt.
As with all the movies in the "Jet Li Collection," the original score has
been replaced by a trite new one and the dubbed dialogue is much dumbed
down. OTOH, it looks better than the import DVD (which is fairly easy to
get), which suffers from an inferior transfer, so you pays your money and
takes your chances.
But yeah, the wirework is often great, and there's terrific
two-against-many fight at the beginning which is largely wire-free.
There's also a really good performance by the underrated Chin Siu-Ho as
Jet's best-friend-turned-villain, although the "Twin Warriors" dubbing
does much to negate his work.
Ian McDowell
Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net> wrote:
>As for fantastical kung fu, I think MY FATHER IS A HERO would be my third
>favorite, behind the FSY films. Maybe OUATIC 2 as the next favorite, but
>I need to rewatch the SWORDSMAN series, just to get a better feel for it.
MY FATHER IS A HERO _really_ lays on the melodrama in a way that may not
be to all tastes, but it has some of Jet's best acting -- playing a
mainland cop gone undercover, he demonstrates a raffish, streetwise
Belmondo quality that's quite unlike his other work. Plus, he has
excellent chemistry with Tze Mu, the formidable young martial artist (and
noted exception to the general rule that most HK child actors grate) who
plays his son -- the scenes of them practicing breathing exercises
together are particularly tender, and you really believe the family bond.
You've got to love a film in which the hero ties a rope around his eleven
year old boy and uses him as a weapon -- the dread Kung Fu Kid Yo-Yo of
Death! Like many Asian films, it doesn't place greater emphasis on a
child's life than on anyone else's, and Tze Mu gets the crap knocked out
of him (not by Jet) in a way that would be unthinkable in a Western movie.
Plus, Anita Mui is quite good as the heroine.
If you have a DVD player, avoid the US version, retitled JET LI'S THE
ENFORCER (why?). The imported disk looks fine, is quite affordable, and
has very readable subs.
Michael Wong
> I thought the coolest thing was bringing back Cheng Pei Pei who seems to
> still know how to handle a sword.
Actually she was back quite a while before CTHD, she did Flirting Scholar
with Gong Li and Stephen Chiau a few years ago.
Michael
John Harkness
wrote:
The copy of Twin Warriors I rented was subtitled, though I can't
comment on the score.
John Harkness
Ian McDowell
<mic...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote:
And she cameos as Michelle Yeoh's sifu in WING CHUN (although she
performed opposite a double for Yeoh, who was in the hospital being
annoyed by a visiting and on-the-make Oliver Stone while Ms. Cheng was in
Hong Kong, having hurt herself doing a horseback stunt).
This is one reason why I was irked by all the second-string (and some
first-string) critics and journalists who thought CTHD's strong female
characters were "unique in the genre". What did they think they Cheng
Pei-Pei became a star doing back in the 60's? What did they think Ms.
Yeoh has been doing for the past fifteen years? Didn't they even read
their press kits?
min...@blah.com
wrote:
>Great Post - and, BTW - most of that info in also given to you by Ang
>Lee (the director) when watching the movie with his commentary
>enabled.
>
>But, if Mandarin is so hard to translate and 1/2 the actors didn't
>speak it, why not just make the film in English? Was this movie made
>for the Mandarin Chinese audience or an English speaking one? (That's
>something I just haven't understood.)
>
>
The movie was originally made with asian audiences in mind. Even if it
was made with western audiences in mind it would be extremely bizarre
to have a WUXIA movie set in ancient china spoken in english. Besides,
more people in the world probably speak chinese than english :P This
movie was more or less a labor of love by Ang Lee of his own childhood
WUXIA fantasies. Obviously, since WUXIA films were untested in the
U.S. mainstream market there's no way he could have known beforehand
it would be such a success. You can give some credit to Sony marketers
as well, they really did a fine job at promoting the film.
Ian McDowell
<nul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>But, if Mandarin is so hard to translate and 1/2 the actors didn't
>speak it, why not just make the film in English? Was this movie made
>for the Mandarin Chinese audience or an English speaking one? (That's
>something I just haven't understood.)
The movie was definitely made with an Asian audience largely in mind
(Hollywood studios have been investing quite heavily in Asian cinema of
late, hoping to tap that market), although of course it was also hoped
that it would be a domestic arthouse success a la LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL and IL
POSTINO (nobody dreamed that it would be the Western blockbuster it's
become). However, many of the biggest "name" actors in the Asian market
have tended to be Cantonese speakers, due to Hong Kong's historic
dominance over other local cinemas (in recent years, this has waned while
Japan and Korea are on the ascendant). Mind you, the two biggest martial
arts/wuxia/historical action stars of the 90's, Brigitte Lin and Jet Li,
are both Mandarin speakers, but Lin has retired and Li, whom Lee
originally wanted for Li Mui Bai, had to drop out when contracturally
obligated to do ROMEO MUST DIE.
In the past this wouldn't have mattered so much, mainly because between
1969 and 1993 Hong Kong movies were often (although not always) filmed
without synchronized sound, much as many European (particularly Italian)
ones were. You seldom got to hear Brigitte Lin's real voice (which I
find far more interesting than the higher-pitched ones she was often
saddled with) and Taiwanese accent in her Hong Kong films, and Jet Li's
heavy Beijing accent could only be heard in HITMAN and the Mandarin
soundtrack of ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA AND AMERICA. Maggie Cheung's
deep, British-accented voice was only heard after she became a Big Time
Serious Actress rather than just a comic foil and cute action twinkie (I
suspect her intonations were all wrong for Ruan Lin-Yu, the "Shanghai
Garbo" she played in CENTRE STAGE, but the performance is so magnificent
that nobody seems to have cared), and Michelle Yeoh's Anglo-Malaysian
accent reportedly made her Cantonese sound as foreign as Schwarzenneger's
does to us. Even Jackie Chan, whose real voice was familiar from his
albums and music videos (and who was routinely hired to dub Disney films
like ALADDIN into both Cantonese and Mandarin) didn't regularly loop his
own films until POLICE STORY 3: SUPERCOP (also the first film to use
Michelle Yeoh's real voice).
(OTOH, Chow Yun-Fat and Tony Leung seem to have almost always done their
own Cantonese and sometimes even Mandarin dubbing since the mid-80's,
possibly because their real voices were so familiar from TV).
Since the mid 90's, synch sound has become more and more common in Hong
Kong, and it was unthinkable that Ang Lee wouldn't use it here. Of
course, he complicated matters by insisting on a particularly elevated
kind of classical Mandarin, rather than the sort of colloquial Cantonese
heard in most Chinese action films made since 1990. Since he wanted to
cast his film largely with Pan-Asian Big Names (he first approached Hong
Kong actress Shu Qi, whose Taiwanese accent probably wouldn't have been
all that appropriate, for the role of Jen, and only hired Zhang Ziyi after
Shu turned him down) rather than "pure" Mandarin speakers who would likely
have been little-known outside of the PRC, there was an inevitable
dilemma.
Mordant
has it listed as Flirtong Scholar). I love that movie.
"Michael Wong" <mic...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote in message
news:3B256740...@galaxy.nsc.com...
Ian McDowell
Harkness) wrote:
>The copy of Twin Warriors I rented was subtitled, though I can't
>comment on the score.
Are you sure you're not conflating it with an import of TAI CHI MASTER,
John? Or perhaps someone at the video store you patronized put a TAI CHI
MASTER tape or disk in a TWIN WARRIORS box? The reason I say this is
because, according to everything I've read and all the specs for the tapes
and disks that are available on line, the deal that either New Line or
Miramax (I forget which it was) had for the films in "The Jet Li
Collection" specifically did NOT include the original soundtracks.
So far, only Columbia has gone to any trouble to secure original
soundtracks for their US releases of Hong Kong films, thus the Cantonese
heard on the DVD's for ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA 1 & 2, MIRACLES,
GORGEOUS, GEN-X COPS, and the upcoming DVD of TIME AND TIDE (which will
include a Tsui Hark commentary). I can't think of a single Hong Kong
action film that's been released in any form by Miramax or New Line with
the original soundtrack.
Admittedly, sometimes weird things happen. Tim Lucas of VIDEO WATCHDOG
says that HBO Plus recently showed DANCE WITH THE DEVIL (aka PERDITO
DURANGO) with all the stuff from VERA CRUZ (including James Gandolfini
morphing into Gary Cooper) that's been cut from the US DVD and VHS release
due to copyright reasons.
John Harkness
wrote:
>In article <3b256a9e...@nntp.attcanada.ca>, j...@attcanada.ca (John
>Harkness) wrote:
>
>>The copy of Twin Warriors I rented was subtitled, though I can't
>>comment on the score.
>
>Are you sure you're not conflating it with an import of TAI CHI MASTER,
>John? Or perhaps someone at the video store you patronized put a TAI CHI
>MASTER tape or disk in a TWIN WARRIORS box? The reason I say this is
>because, according to everything I've read and all the specs for the tapes
>and disks that are available on line, the deal that either New Line or
>Miramax (I forget which it was) had for the films in "The Jet Li
>Collection" specifically did NOT include the original soundtracks.
>
I'm reasonably sure I saw it sub-titled and as Twin Warriors -- It may
be that different arrangements were made for Canada -- but I don't
rent dubbed films, and would have noticed.
Regards,
John Harkness
Michael Wong
> Wow, someone else who has actually seen Flirting Scholar (although my DVD
> has it listed as Flirtong Scholar). I love that movie.
That's funny, but the typo (or should we say freaudian slip) "Tong" does make
sense as Chaiu's name was Tong Bak Fu and this story supposedly happened in
"Tong" or Tang dynasty.
Michael
zpoo
> > Now if we can only explain the plot hole of "why didn't Jade Fox simply
> > kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles". And
> > don't say she needed her as bait, as Li Mu Bai would have fought her even
> > if the girl was dead, in vengeance for his master.
>
> Jiaolong was stronger then Jade Fox, and Li Mu Bai was stronger then
> Jiaolong. Jade Fox needed to eliminate Li Mu Bai, but to attack him
> directly would have been suicide. She therefore forced him to
> simultaneously defend both himself and the drugged Jiaolong from the
> needle attack. He failed.
Maybe Jade Fox wanted Jen and Li to consumate their love before
killing Li, thus delivering the worst blow imaginable.
bye.
Michael Wong
comments/clarifications.
min...@blah.com wrote:
> I'm going to address some of the more insipid questions i've seen
> first..
>
> "What is this WUXIA thing?"
>
> WUXIA is a big part of Asian cinema culture and fantasy novels dating
> from as far back as the 1920's and maybe even before then. You can
> compare its popularity with asian countries along the lines of how
> popular sci-fi and fantasy novels are here in the U.S. The WUXIA genre
> is also the asian equivalent of superheroes when compared to their
> western counterparts. WUXIA has its own brand of mythos in which
> various martial artists learn through forbidden texts to attain a
> certain god like mastery of enlightenment and ability. They are beyond
> mortal abilities and have attained true mastery and control over their
> martial arts abilities.
Literally translating the two words Wu = Martial arts or things related
to
martial arts/fighting; Xia = hero, or describing something
chivalrous/heroic,
can be a person or an act. Putting them together means a type of story
which
concerns one or more heroes/performing a great herioc chivalrous deed or
righting wrongs by the means of using martial arts. Some traced the
history
of Wuxia as far back as to the "Records of History" (Tsi Jee) written by
Tse Ma
Tsien back in Han Dynasty (around 200 B.C. I think), there were a couple
of
books: namely Stories ofAssassins and Stories of Wandering heroes which
served as the basic model for the later WuXia / fantasy novels (more from
the
Assassin than Wandering heroes in my opinion). The texts aren't really
forbidden per se, it's just that the skills it can teach are so powerful
that everyone
wants them and don't want to share it once it's acquired. BTW, it's not
always
forbidden texts either, sometimes it's acquired by learning from a true
master,
sometimes it via eating some special medicine that allowed the person to
gain
mastery of chi by having an abundance of it.
> "Why are the actor's flying? I don't get it, it's so.. like..
> unrealistic!"
>
> This is part of the WUXIA mythos, the flying is a form of "Chi
> enlightenment" a superhuman mastery of martial arts and swordsmanship.
> They aren't literally "flying" but more like reducing their own
> gravity to be able to glide.
The "weightless" kung fu (i.e. flying) doesn't always have to do with
"Chi
enlightenment", according to certain authors it's a completely different
discipline altogether, witness the Wei Siao Bo character from the novel
version of "The Royal Tramp" (original title is the legend of the deer
cauldron) never learned "Chi" kung fu because it was too hard and he is
too lazy, but became a master in "weightless" kung fu because it helps
him
escape by mastering a series of steps (the footsteps of god with 100
changes)
taught by the female buddhist nun. Though, I tend to agree that this
form
of kung fu is also "chi" related.
Please allow me to add one additional entry:-
"What is "Chi"?", "What's the deal with all the Yin/Yang stuff"?
A prevalent concept in Chinese culture is the study of energy flow, the
word "Chi" means air or energy. The study of channeling the energy flow
by manipulating the surrounding is commonly known as Feng Shui (Wind
and Water), while the study of channeling energy flow within the body is
known as Chi Kung (the martial arts of chi). There is good chi and bad
chi, and different elements give out different chi. The Chinese follow a
system of 5 elements => Fire, Water, Metal, Earth, Wood. (as opposed
to Fire, Water, Air and Earth) and each of these elements lead to the
creation of another while being the antithesis of yet another. These
elements each have their own representative colour and direction, with
earth in the middle, wood in the east, fire in the south, metal in the
west,
and water to the north. Each direction is also represented by a type of
mythical animal, the dragon to the east is green, phoenix to the south is
red, turtle and the snake to the north is black, tiger to the west is
white,
I have forgotten the color in the middle. These placed in the Ba Gwa
(8 symptoms) can also represent the 8 directions, N, NE, E, SE, S, SW,
W, NW. Alternatively, looking from above we can add the center to
it to form the Jiu Kong (9 palaces/placements), 9 squares placed together
to form a larger square. In the "book of changes" Yi Jing each of the 8
directions are assigned a symbol with something akin to binary math,
with a broken line or straight horizontal line denoting 0 or 1. One
being
Kin (Yang) and the other being Kwun (Yin). When you see Chinese
psychics trying to tell the future, they frequently use 3 coins and a
turtle
shell, the heads of the coins = Kin and tails = Kwun, and they throw the
coins twice to one of the 8x8 = 64 scenarios described by the "book of
changes". Note that chinese astrology follows this system also, where
the sky is divided to north east south west section and each section are
assigned 7 constellations (i.e. 7 constellations of the green dragon to
the east, 7 constellations of the red phoenix to the south, fans of the
Japanese anime series Fushigi Yuugi might recognize this). This sums
up to 28 constellations and are featured as lessers gods in Chinese
classics/mythologies and occasionally appears in forms of Feng Shui
or even Kung Fu. Each of these constellations are again named after a
form of animal in the system of (Name) (Element) (Animal), since
each direction has 7 constellations in addition to fire, water, metal,
earth, and wood. Sun and Moon are added. Examples are Female
Earth Bat, Rise Sun Chicken... etc. Naturally, each of these animals
have a natural nemesis in another of these constellations, and you
might be interested to know that the natural nemesis of centipede is
chicken. Which is why Wong Fei Hong dressed up in that ridiculous
chicken suit to fight that giant centipede trap, this same idea was also
used in the Journey to the west in which the monkey key had to ask for
the aid of the chicken constellation, a lesser god whom he defeated
years ago to help him fight a powerful centipede demon; in another
occasion he had to enlist the help of the "4 hunting constellations",
a lesser dog god, a lesser wolf god, plus 2 other varieties of dog/wolf
type canine god to defeat 3 rhinocerous demons. Of course, each
of these also has their own sequence of good luck or bad omen. The
human body also has 5 major organs, and each of them assigned to
an element, when Jet Li (Wong Fei Hong) started to blabber about
the various elements in Chinese medicine in Once Upon a Time in
China to the Western doctors, he was actually talking about an organ.
The human body is believed to have 9 major channels of "Yin" type
Chi flow and 9 other major channels of "Yang" type Chi flow, and the
Chi martial arts described in WuXia novels it the study of using the chi
in all these various channels or just focusing on one or a few of these
chi channels. The naming of these channels also link that to a vital
organ due to where the chi is supposed to flow, for instance the "hand
minor yang 'ming' stomach channel" is the flow of yang "chi" through
the arms to the stomach. 2 of the most powerful (fictional) secret
manuals in Jin Yong novels are "the manual of the 9 yang" and the
"manual of the 9 yin" which were featured prominently in the eagle
shooting trilogy. Note that even though these chi flow are often the
same as blood flow in the body, it's not the same thing. WuXia novels
believe that by practising breathing exercises and channeling chi flow
in the body, you can purify/cleanse the chi in the body to make you
physically stronger, and you can also store up more energy chi by more
practise. More fantastical moments in WuXia novels had people being
able to shoot chi out of their body, that's where you get to see laser
beams
shooting out of people's finger and palms to blow up rocks/trees/people.
Another type of kung fu is dim mak (pointing pulse) or dim yuet (pointing
vital spots), this is supposedly real when a chi master focuses the chi
at a
finger tip to strike at vital spots to achieve instant death or temporary
paralysis. You will see a lot of this in typical Chinese WuXia films.
It is
also believed that chi masters can transfer chi into another body, at the
end of CTHD you will see Li Wu Bai's palm pushing against Jen's back,
he was transfering his chi to force the poison/drug out of Jen by using
chi
so to speak.
> What is this Wudan text they keep mentioning?
>
> The martial arts "text" is usually a big part of WUXIA genre films,
> which are supposed to contain forbidden knowledge to allow
> supernatural attainment in mastery of martial arts skill. This is a
> fairly common theme and usually one or more protagonists are always
> fighting to gain this knowledge.
True in most respect, in this story however, the text was stolen from Li
Wu Bai's teacher and he felt obligated to reclaim it, though he already
know all the text by heart and then some. (In a prior novel where Li
Wu Bai was the villain, he stole a manual containing secrets of superior
"dim mak" skills from a monk, so at least in this respect he is more
skilled
than his teacher and the stuff in the book).
> "What is this Giang Hu place they keep talking about?"
>
> Giang Hu is sort of like the inner society in which these martial
> artists and villains who have attained this superhuman mastery live
> in. Compare it to like the western comic book world..you have heroes
> and supervillains that regularly battle each other and rarely do
> normal people get involved with their conflict.
Giang literally means river while Hu is lake, this name is probably from
the
fact that gangs and pirates most often travel around these water based
transportation. Giang Hu often applies to the more seedy underside of
the
martial arts world, while Wu Lin (Martial Arts Forest) is a synonym that
doesn't carry the negative undertone. The term Giang Hu applies more to
Shu Lien because as a professional delivery person, she had to have
constant
contact and conflicts with the pirates/robber types.
> e-mail me at min...@raveworld.net
Sorry for being so long-winded.
Michael
Michael Wong
> In article <72F21FE7F2F0A18D.76B5BC52...@lp.airnews.net>,
> Phil Educate says...
> >
> > I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the flying
> >was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story),
>
> What the "flying" added to the story is that it added to the WUXIA mythos.
> They were able to fly because they were enlightened warriors. Saying that
> it added nothing to the story is like saying that the Force added nothing
> to Star Wars.
I totally agree, comparing "flying" and "chi" with the Force is very apt
because that is basically the same thing to those of us who were weaned
on WuXia novels. It should be noted that even "flying" has several
schools in the more fantastical novels. e.g. according to Huan Tsu
Liu Chu (Master of the returned pearl tower) in his warriors of zu novels,
flying is a skill that could be learned! The monkey king from the Journey
to the west learned flying via using the "somersault cloud", in which he
flew by talking a somersault in the air, and each somersault he took in the
air is 108,000 miles. I read in the thread that someone found Chow Yun
Fat flying in Superman style by pointing his index and middle finger up
funny, but that is actually the "flying style" of a sword master, it was
mentioned that he was at the final stage of enlightenment, that is akin to
achieving immortality through the study of Taoism and sword fighting.
The final stage of the ultimate sword fighter is to achieve such a skill in
"chi" manipulation that he can use his "chi" to manipulate a sword from
afar. To westerners it would seem as if he is telepathically manipulating
a sword (or maybe magically). And once he achieves this "chi" mastery,
he can make the sword fly in the air and he can also fly by standing on the
flying sword while the sword is in flight under the control of his "chi". This
of course, makes no sense in physics. Eventually the sword master may find
that he doesn't need the sword anymore because he himself "is the sword",
and therefore can make himself fly. Granted the movie is nowhere near as
fantastical as what I described, but his pointing with fingers and than flying
off is just like what was in that sort of book when it comes to flying. The
concept of "magical sword" is actually quite foreign in most WuXia novels,
it's more commonly seen in Chinese mythology or the works of the author
of Zu. Swords like the green destiny are actually known for craftsmanship,
material used, and durability rather than having some magical properties.
Michael
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net> wrote in message >
>>
>> Now if we can only explain the plot hole of "why didn't Jade Fox simply
>> kill Jiaolong, instead of trying later with the poison needles". And
>> don't say she needed her as bait, as Li Mu Bai would have fought her even
>> if the girl was dead, in vengeance for his master.
>
>Jiaolong was stronger then Jade Fox, and Li Mu Bai was stronger then
>Jiaolong. Jade Fox needed to eliminate Li Mu Bai, but to attack him
>directly would have been suicide. She therefore forced him to
>simultaneously defend both himself and the drugged Jiaolong from the
>needle attack. He failed.
>
This is what ended up happening (sort of), but judging from Jade Fox's
comments on her last breath, it's highly doubtful to be her intentions. She
apparently did not expect Li Mu Bai to even show up. Her whole plan seemed
to involve only teaching Jiaolong a final lesson. Li's appearance was
unforseen by her.
_Man_
--
Please remove **NOSPAM** from my address to reply by email.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>Shuurai wrote:
>
>> In article
<72F21FE7F2F0A18D.76B5BC52...@lp.airnews.net>,
>> Phil Educate says...
>> >
>> > I don't care what anyone says. The special effects sucked, the
flying
>> >was stupid and juvenile (and added nothing necessary to the story),
>>
>> What the "flying" added to the story is that it added to the WUXIA
mythos.
>> They were able to fly because they were enlightened warriors. Saying
that
>> it added nothing to the story is like saying that the Force added nothing
>> to Star Wars.
>
>I totally agree, comparing "flying" and "chi" with the Force is very apt
>because that is basically the same thing to those of us who were weaned
>on WuXia novels.
Totally! Of course, I suppose there are some who probably found the Force
to be stupid and juvenile as well. Obviously, fantasy fiction is not really
their cup of tea.
>The final stage of the ultimate sword fighter is to achieve such a skill in
>"chi" manipulation that he can use his "chi" to manipulate a sword from
>afar. To westerners it would seem as if he is telepathically manipulating
>a sword (or maybe magically). And once he achieves this "chi" mastery,
>he can make the sword fly in the air and he can also fly by standing on the
>flying sword while the sword is in flight under the control of his "chi".
This
>of course, makes no sense in physics. Eventually the sword master may find
>that he doesn't need the sword anymore because he himself "is the sword",
>and therefore can make himself fly. Granted the movie is nowhere near as
>fantastical as what I described, but his pointing with fingers and than
flying
>off is just like what was in that sort of book when it comes to flying.
The
>concept of "magical sword" is actually quite foreign in most WuXia novels,
>it's more commonly seen in Chinese mythology or the works of the author
>of Zu.
I haven't actually read any wuxia novels (yet), but I did grow up watching
TV serials and movies and reading plenty of wuxia-based comic books. And I
agree. For those who'd like to see more of such fantastical elements, try
Zu: Warriors from the Magical Mountain. Both the flying sword wielded by
extremely high mastery in chi AND even the highest level of "man and sword
as one" (amongst other things) are featured in this movie. At the highest
level, the swordsperson actually projects two separate sword chi's referred
to as Purple and Green and can wield them at will.
For those familiar w/ the concept of sword chi (or sometimes translated as
sword energy, eg. the Swordsman movies), this highest level is actually way
beyond what is normally depicted. Usually, a powerful swordsperson can only
project sword chi in limited fashion through his sword or even his fingers.
But at the ultimate level, the sword chi's are manipulated at will w/ no
need for a focused projection point like a sword or fingers.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>In article <uI6V6.8263$6d5.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Dave
>T" <david.t...@NOBLOOMINSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Ian, the depth of your knowledge amazes me (and I thought I knew a lot
about
>>HK cinema). Another excellent post.
>>
>>Do you have a website or a book or something?
>
>Lots of people know more about HK cinema than me and many of them have
>websites. I'm particularly fond of Brian Naas's View from the Brooklyn
>Bridge site, although the URL escapes me (Google should turn it up).
Or here:
Enjoy!
Mordant
genre...look for a film called Thrilling Bloody Sword. A very weird mix of
Snow White and Star Wars, with some fairies and enchanted bears thrown in.
The musical score is the best! With DIRECT rip offs of the Star Wars theme,
Vader's march, and even the theme from Starblazers.
You know the movies that are sooo bad they are good? Well, this is the
king.
Ian McDowell
Man and Natalie)" <mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net> wrote:
>Ian McDowell wrote in message ...
>>Lots of people know more about HK cinema than me and many of them have
>>websites. I'm particularly fond of Brian Naas's View from the Brooklyn
>>Bridge site, although the URL escapes me (Google should turn it up).
>
>Or here:
>
>www.brns.com
Thanks, Man, I was being a lazy bastid. Interested folks should also
check out the Hong Kong movie database at http://hkmdb.com (be warned, it
goes down a lot), although it may seem intimidating to a beginner.
Sleater-Kinney
CodeWarrior wrote:
> I've also seen Fist of Legend, Once Upon Time In China and A Better
> Tomorrow. The first two I didn't really like and the third I thought was
> blatantly crap.
What the fuck?!?? CodeWarrior, no offense but you are a fucking moron.
Dave T
>Ian McDowell wrote in message ...
>>In article <uI6V6.8263$6d5.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Dave
>>T" <david.t...@NOBLOOMINSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ian, the depth of your knowledge amazes me (and I thought I knew a lot
>about
>>>HK cinema). Another excellent post.
>>>
>>>Do you have a website or a book or something?
>>
>[snip]
>>Lots of people know more about HK cinema than me and many of them have
>>websites. I'm particularly fond of Brian Naas's View from the Brooklyn
>>Bridge site, although the URL escapes me (Google should turn it up).
>
>Or here:
>
>www.brns.com
>
>Enjoy!
Outstanding, thanks guys.
--
Dave
This Post Brought To You By Dave-O-Vision
Quality Nonsense Since 1998
Chris
This is not sort-of what happened, it is exactly what happened. 100
poison darts shot at a single opponent, who is drugged and unable to
stand up, is the definition of "overkill", don't you think?
Ian McDowell
<mic...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote:
>Giang literally means river while Hu is lake, this name is
>probably from the fact that gangs and pirates most often travel
>around these water based transportation. Giang Hu often applies
>to the more seedy underside of the martial arts world,
>while Wu Lin (Martial Arts Forest) is a synonym that
>doesn't carry the negative undertone. The term Giang Hu
>applies more to Shu Lien because as a professional delivery
>person, she had to have constant contact and conflicts
>with the pirates/robber types.
The original theatrical subtitles for THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR had
several references to the "River-Lake", which I found confusing at the
time. I was also puzzled the first time I saw Tsui Hark's THE BLADE, in
which the subs kept
referring to something called "Emprise Field," which seemed to be more of a
state of mind than an actual place ("Emprise" is an archaic word for
"chivalric endeavor" -- wuxia books are sometimes called "Emprise Novels"
by English-speaking Chinese).
Nowadays, Giang Hu (or Jiang Hu) can refer as much to the world of
organized crime as to that of martial arts. Hence the recent Hong Kong
movie JIANG HU: THE TRIAD ZONE.
I've been reading John Minford's translation of Louis Cha's THE DEER AND
THE CAULDRON, which is coming out in three very attractive vollumes from
Oxford University Press, and which for all the world reads like a fantasy
kung fu novel written by George MacDonald Fraser (the first volume came
out in 1969, the same year as Fraser's FLASHMAN ). Here is an interesting
and most helpful excerpt from Cha and Mimford's excellent Glossary of
General Terms:
************
RIVER AND LAKE, BROTHERHOOD OF (jianghu). In earliest times,
"River and Lake" referred to the backwaters (originally the
Yangtze River and Dongting Lake, then by extension the three
rivers and the five lakes) into which hermits disappeared in
order to lead a reclusive life. It became the expression for
the whole underground culture of Traditional China, the
vagrant outlaw fraternity, as opposed to the Confucian
Establishment. Especially in the south, such people
traveled about largely by water (river, lake, canal), hence
the name. It was a world fraught with danger, but with its
own romance and mythology. 'Ten years may a scholar make/but
not a veteran of River and Lake.' Once individuals belonged
to this Brotherhood, there existed between them a tacit
understanding and bond. They had their own code of conduct,
their own concepts of honour and loyalty, their own language
and wisdom, their own hierarchy. In the broad sense, River
and Lake embraced every marginal and dispossed element in
society, from the roving swordsman, bodyguard and Martial
Arts adept (shifu) to the lowliest traveling performer with
his monkey and hurdy-gurdy; from the storyteller, the
juggler, and acrobat to the medicine man selling patent
plasters, the traveling barber and the fortune-teller
consulting the _Book of Changes_; from the wandering Taoist
monk selling talismanic charms to the rebel-leader gathering
together members of some religious secret sect in his
mountain lair. It includes cripples, beggars, tramps,
sing-song girls, bawds, pirates, junkmen-buccaneers,
drug-runners, smugglers, bandits, gangsters and thieves (in
later usage to be a 'River and Lake man' came to have the
popular sense of 'wise in the ways of the world',
'street-smart', and thence, 'charlatan, or quack.')
Their British counterparts were the 'Traveling Folk' or
'Gentlemen of the World.' The Beat characters in Jack
Kerouac's novels are members of an American River and Lake
fraternity. In the Australian 'bush,' bushrangers shared a
similar concept of mateship. The French Resistance took to
the 'maquis' or scrub-country. In each case, the terrain
connoted a shared way of life, outside the mainstream of
society.
Dale Hicks
mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net says...
>
> This is what ended up happening (sort of), but judging from Jade Fox's
> comments on her last breath, it's highly doubtful to be her intentions. She
> apparently did not expect Li Mu Bai to even show up. Her whole plan seemed
> to involve only teaching Jiaolong a final lesson. Li's appearance was
> unforseen by her.
So why did she go foraging into the forest? To get the compressed air to
launch the needles? Or was she trying to lure the warriors back, to see
the death scene? And Jiaolong was already drugged, she could have just
pricked her with a poison needle after telling her how ungrateful she
was. I'm back to thinking she wanted an audience for some reason.
Also, I thought the Jade Fox burial was an odd scene, not fitting with
the film. Hopefully this comes from some wuxia tradition, as it
interrupted the story flow.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>"Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)" <mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net>
wrote in message news:<1hiV6.1874$5d5.3...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net>...
>> comments on her last breath, it's highly doubtful to be her intentions.
She
>> apparently did not expect Li Mu Bai to even show up. Her whole plan
seemed
>> to involve only teaching Jiaolong a final lesson. Li's appearance was
>> unforseen by her.
>
>This is not sort-of what happened, it is exactly what happened. 100
>poison darts shot at a single opponent, who is drugged and unable to
>stand up, is the definition of "overkill", don't you think?
Ok. I will need to rewatch that sequence to resolve that. Unfortunately, I
lent the DVD away and don't expect to get it back anytime soon.
Offhand, I'll concede that the poison darts are for Li, not the drugged
Jiaolong, but I'm not convinced that she intended to use Jiaolong as
bait/hindrance against Li. Her dying comments suggest that she was not
really planning to kill Li, but Li's appearance and concern for Jiaolong
presented the right opportunity to do so. And it makes sense for her to
prepare a way to deal w/ Li should he really show up as he did since she did
stow Jiaolong away w/ Li not far off away.
Man-Fai Wong (was Man and Natalie)
>In article <1hiV6.1874$5d5.3...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net>,
>mandn.wong@**NOSPAM**verizon.net says...
>>
>> This is what ended up happening (sort of), but judging from Jade Fox's
>> comments on her last breath, it's highly doubtful to be her intentions.
She
>> apparently did not expect Li Mu Bai to even show up. Her whole plan
seemed
>> to involve only teaching Jiaolong a final lesson. Li's appearance was
>> unforseen by her.
>
>So why did she go foraging into the forest? To get the compressed air to
>launch the needles? Or was she trying to lure the warriors back, to see
>the death scene? And Jiaolong was already drugged, she could have just
>pricked her with a poison needle after telling her how ungrateful she
>was. I'm back to thinking she wanted an audience for some reason.
>
As I wrote in response to Chris, I'll need to rewatch the sequence to see if
I missed any details. I'll concede that the needles are probably for Li,
not Jiaolong. However, I still think she did not intend for Li to show up
and that the needles are a pre-cautionary measure.
It's possible that the filmmakers had nothing significant for her to do
while she waited for Jiaolong to reawaken and the drug to take full effect.
I doubt she really wanted Li to show up. Certainly, her dying words suggest
that she had not intended to kill Li (at that point anyway).
>Also, I thought the Jade Fox burial was an odd scene, not fitting with
>the film. Hopefully this comes from some wuxia tradition, as it
>interrupted the story flow.
>
I forget the details here, but it didn't bother me.
Dave Adams
>
> Sorry for being so long-winded.
I'm enjoying this thread very much. So please be as long-winded, as
possible. Thank you.
maro
Michael Wong
Thanks for your kind words, I need to make a couple more
additions/clarifications:-
> What is this Wudan text they keep mentioning?
The actual name of that specific text is "the manual of 9 Hua", which
was written
by and named after the master (the taoist priest "9 Hua") of Li Wu Bai's
master
(actually the mute hero in the book, but according to the movie it's
Jiang Nan Huo,
i.e. southern crane, who took Li Wu Bai under his wing after the mute
hero was
"mysteriously" murdered). Wudan is a school of martial arts under
Taoist philosophy,
as opposed to Shaolin which is a school of martial arts under Buddhist
philosophy.
Wudan is more concerned with developing the "inner" martial arts (i.e.
kung fu using
"chi") while Shaolin specialized more on the "outer" martial arts (i.e.
using muscular
strength and attack fiercely by brute force with fists and weapons).
Wudan is named
after the mountain the Taoist temple (Tsan Wu => literally means real
martial arts)
it is found in. Wudan is also sometimes translated as Wu Tang, the rap
group Wu
Tang Clan basically is implying that they are students of this school of
martial arts.
One of their videos featured them fighting against a bunch of monks,
which is
re-enacting one of the often found scenarios in Kung Fu films where the
Wu Tang
students fight with Shao Lin students to determine which type of kung fu
is superior.
How did Wudan come about?
If you've seen Tai Chi with Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh, you will see
Cheung San Feng
(a former student of Shaolin and Jet Li's character) started this school
after he left
Shaolin and developed his own style of martial arts and became a
well-known master
in late Yuen dynasty. His style of martial arts is radically different
from the more
physical style of Shaolin. He is credited to be the creator of the
"Tai Chi" style of
fighting by Jin Yong, but apparently it appeared to be false as
contested by the 2
schools of Tai Chi, the Chen's Tai Chi and Ng's Tai Chi. I didn't
investigate much
into their claims.
More on Binary Math:-
In the Tai Chi symbol you see two polar opposites, a black dot
surrounded by a huge
twirling white water drop juxtaposed against a white dot surrounded by a
twirling
black water drop to form a circle. One side is supposed to be Yin and
the other side
is Yang. A perfect balance is acheived and everything is in harmony. A
common
saying is "From Tai Chi come the Leung (2) Yee, Leung Yee gives birth to
the Sze (4)
Jang, Sze Jang springs forth the Ba (8) Gwa". As I've mentioned in my
previous
message, the 8 "gwa" (symptoms) are analogous to the 8 directions and
represented
as a broken horizatonal or a whole horizontal line (which means Kin &
Kwun or
Yin and Yang). The principal of Tai Chi is the balance of the Yin and
Yang, the
two polar opposites which allow one to prosper from nothing. 0 => 1 => 2
=> 4 => 8
and eventually from the 8 to 8 (upper "gwa") x 8 (lower "gwa") = 64 in
"The Book
of Changes". I find it pretty neat that our ancestors were doing binary
math way
before the advent of computers. It's pretty analogous to mitosis too,
which is also
quite cool.
> maro
Michael
Pen
> In article <3B228100...@SPAMSUCKSemail.com>,
> Joe Anstett <joe_a...@SPAMSUCKSemail.com> wrote:
>
> > How come there were no tigers or dragons in it? I'm very disappointed.
> >
> > <Just kidding>
>
> One is crouching behind the other, which happens to be hidden.
>
> b o b c a t @ p a c i f i c . n e t . s g
I might be imaginating things but Lo calls Jen 'Little dragon' in chinese.
Chris
> How did Wudan come about?
>
> If you've seen Tai Chi with Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh, you will see
> Cheung San Feng
> (a former student of Shaolin and Jet Li's character) started this school
> after he left
> Shaolin and developed his own style of martial arts and became a
> well-known master
> in late Yuen dynasty. His style of martial arts is radically different
> from the more
> physical style of Shaolin. He is credited to be the creator of the
> "Tai Chi" style of
> fighting by Jin Yong, but apparently it appeared to be false as
> contested by the 2
> schools of Tai Chi, the Chen's Tai Chi and Ng's Tai Chi. I didn't
> investigate much
> into their claims.
While we are on the subject, which book is referenced in "Tai Chi
Master" as "the book of Qi", i.e. what is its real name?
Michael Wong
> While we are on the subject, which book is referenced in "Tai Chi
> Master" as "the book of Qi", i.e. what is its real name?
I will have to rewatch that movie and get back to you later... is the film
available subbed in chains like Blockbuster?
Michael
Chris
Probably not. Zhang only recites three or four lines from the book
IIRC, one of which is translated as "Do not use force; force will
break it." I'm sure it's a very well known book, I just don't know
which one it is.