shallow grave - spoiler question
John D. Cotter
My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
What's the consensus?
- John
Jennifer Stannard
I would think Alex died, because they were taking pictures of
him. Like they would do at a murder scene.
Also, no one comforts him, and there is not medical attention
being given to him.
--
Jen Stannard (Myca)
"The gift of fantasy has meant more to me,
Than my talent to absorb positive knowledge"--Albert Einstein
Tomas Apodaca
According to the director he's alive. But don't let that stop you from
deciding differently.
Tomas
In article <315CB2...@execpc.com>,
Tomas Apodaca
The transcript of the interview in which the director says Alex lives
is at: http://www.foresight.co.uk/pvl/grave/irc.html
In article <4jke9q$r...@lace.colorado.edu>, I wrote:
>According to the director he's alive. But don't let that stop you from
>deciding differently.
>John D. Cotter <jdco...@execpc.com> wrote:
Scott Jamieson
>Hello,
>
> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
> What's the consensus?
>
>- John
I just watched Shallow Grave this weekend, and I would definately state that
Alex was alive, as he was wincing at the camera flash and then began to laugh
as he knew that Kerry Fox (can't remember her character's name) had the fake
money in the suitcase and that the money was stored
beneth him under the floor boards and nobody knew it was there except him.
Scott
o<
o< __///_ /
>o /o \//
o< )__^^^_/\\
\\ \
samiam
Despite what the director said, my wife says "alive" and I say "dead".
Why would they take photos of a guy, still alive, that is stabbed to
the floor? Those pix are crime scene photos of the deceased.
Criminal or not, they would have given him medical attention if he was
alive....
My two cents...
Rich
"Bite me!"
-Crow T. Robot
MST3k
sam...@interaccess.com
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~samiam/
Christopher Roberson
: > >> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
: > >>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
: > >>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
: > >> What's the consensus?
I, too, think that he's supposed to be alive. Really badly hurt, but alive.
Or should I just have written "Me too!"?
Chris
Lmlyp
> >>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
> >>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
> >> What's the consensus?
generally when i see someone speaking, i assume that they are indeed still
alive.
anyway, the end wouldn't be nearly as cool if he was dead. she gets away,
thinks she has the money, finds out she doesn't, and we see that alex,
while injured, ends up okay cuz he's got the money. and that ending song
is SO perfect.
dave.
R. Hunter Metz
>Gary Pollak (gpo...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: > >> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
>: > >>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
>: > >>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
>: > >> What's the consensus?
>
>I, too, think that he's supposed to be alive. Really badly hurt, but alive.
>
>Or should I just have written "Me too!"?
>
>Chris
Okay, my take. Alex was lying on the floor passed out, then the
photographer starts snapping off shots and he wakes up with the "what
the...?" expression on his face.
Hunter
Scott Marcus
>
>> >>Hello,
>> >>
>> >> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
>> >>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
>> >>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
>> >> What's the consensus?
>
>I never thought he was anything but alive.
Of course he's dead: do you think the cops would be calmly
photographing the scene, with him lying in a pool of blood with a knife
sticking through his shoulder? If he were alive, I would think there
would be some doctors or paramedics around, maybe trying to stop the
bleeding, or take the knife out of the floor so that they could pick
him up and take him to a hospital.
*********************************************************************
* "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." *
* William Shakespeare Henry VI, Part 1 *
* *
* Scott Marcus mar...@shadow.net or sco...@hcx1.ssd.hcsc.com *
*********************************************************************
Gary Pollak
wheres the any key
On 3 Apr 1996, Christopher Roberson wrote:
> Gary Pollak (gpo...@primenet.com) wrote:
> : > >> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
Mike D'Angelo
: Of course he's dead: do you think the cops would be calmly
: photographing the scene, with him lying in a pool of blood with a knife
: sticking through his shoulder? If he were alive, I would think there
: would be some doctors or paramedics around, maybe trying to stop the
: bleeding, or take the knife out of the floor so that they could pick
: him up and take him to a hospital.
IMPORTANT NOTE BEFORE I START: I am not a doctor. I am not even studying
medicine. The following information was gleaned from various works of
fiction, and may be faulty. Consult qualified medical personnel before
making life-and-death decisions based upon information in this article.
Now then...
It is possible that an ambulance has been sent for, but has not yet
arrived. If that is the case, my understanding is that leaving him where
he is, with the knife still lodged in his body, is *exactly* the right
thing to do. My memory is that the knife isn't near any vital organs, so
the only real danger he's in would result from loss of blood, and
bleeding will be limited so long as the knife remains where it is. Once
medical professionals arrive, the knife can be removed, as they'll be
equipped to cauterize the wounds or apply necessary pressure or whatever
it is they'd do in that situation. I don't think the cops would touch him.
Taking photographs of the crime scene is, of course, essential, and
Alex's position on the floor could conceivably (in their minds) be
significant. They don't just photograph corpses.
That said, I don't believe that Hodge and Boyle really give a damn
whether their ending "makes sense" from a forensic standpoint. They
wanted a certain effect, and they got it.
Mike "shallow analysis" D'Angelo
Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
http://pages.nyu.edu/~mqd8478
The Other One
>
> Hello,
>
> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
> at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
> to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
> What's the consensus?
>
I had never really thought much about this until you posed the question.
I assumed he was alive, but I really don't know what was intended. I
still assume he was supposed to be alive.
Dave
Mike Harrington
showing Alex's body being put into a fridge at the morgue? I remember
the scene but I don't think it was at the end of the movie. My
impression was that Alex was narrating the movie explaining all the
events that led up to his death (there were lots of brief scenes of him
lying on a hospital guerny looking up at the camera).
As for the medical points raised it is proper to leave the knife in the
wound untl the patient reaches the hospital (removing it might allow for
more bleeding).
So count me in with the "he's dead" group
Mike Harrington
Alex Fung
* Spoilers for "Shallow Grave" *
Mike Harrington (mic...@unixg.ubc.ca) writes:
> It's been awhile since I saw the movie but wasn't there another scene
> showing Alex's body being put into a fridge at the morgue? I remember
> the scene but I don't think it was at the end of the movie. My
> impression was that Alex was narrating the movie explaining all the
> events that led up to his death (there were lots of brief scenes of him
> lying on a hospital guerny looking up at the camera).
That's correct, except that character was the David character, portrayed
by Christopher Eccleston. The topic in question is whether Alex (portrayed
by Ewan McGregor) was dead at the end of the film - he was stabbed through
by David with a kitchen knife, literally pinned to the ground. (David
was certainly dead, after being stabbed through the neck by Juliet [Kerry
Fox], and being seen continuing the voice-over in the morgue, as you mention
above.)
> As for the medical points raised it is proper to leave the knife in the
> wound untl the patient reaches the hospital (removing it might allow for
> more bleeding).
>
> So count me in with the "he's dead" group
To be honest, I'd never even considered that the Alex character could have
possibly been alive at the end of the film until this thread started up -
it seemed clear to me at first that he was dead. Although in medical terms
it may be proper to leave the knife in the wound, I doubt that it would
be proper for people to be casually chatting in the background, and the
inspector to nonchalantly shake his head at the victim as he lies on the floor
profusely bleeding, which is what was going on in the film. Similarly,
if Alex's actions at the end of the film are to be taken literally (that is,
since he's moving about it must mean he's alive), someone with a grevious
wound such as his probably would not be roaring with laughter, even if he
did manage to keep a huge fortune.
I thought that the wonderfully stylish end of the film worked as well as it
did *because* Alex was dead - if he was alive, the impact (for me, at least)
would've been severly subdued. (In fact, in my opinion it would be among
the worst endings to an otherwise fine film since the Tony Scott-appended
conclusion to "True Romance"). It seemed completely appropriate in terms
of Danny Boyle's direction that Alex's 'alertness' did not signify that he
literally survived, but that he did prevail.
(Incidentally, the URL cited previously in this thread does not contain
comments from director Danny Boyle, but instead the producer of "Shallow
Grave", and the screenwriter, John Hodge. The tone seemed pretty irreverent,
so make of it what you will.)
--
Alex Fung (aw...@freenet.carleton.ca)
"Unlike you, I'm tolerant of weirdness." - Jennifer Jason Leigh,
_Crooked Hearts_ (1991)
Cliff Heller
>It's been awhile since I saw the movie but wasn't there another scene
>showing Alex's body being put into a fridge at the morgue?
No, that was David's body.
I remember
>the scene but I don't think it was at the end of the movie. My
>impression was that Alex was narrating the movie explaining all the
>events that led up to his death (there were lots of brief scenes of him
>lying on a hospital guerny looking up at the camera).
No, that was David narrating.
--
/ \ Scribe fnord-to-the-power-of-fnord fn...@panix.com
/<0>\ International Secular Atavism.
/ \ Jesus had a tail!
/_______\ Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny!
gareth
>Scott Marcus (sco...@hcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com) wrote:
>
>: Of course he's dead: do you think the cops would be calmly
>: photographing the scene, with him lying in a pool of blood with a knife
>: sticking through his shoulder? If he were alive, I would think there
>: would be some doctors or paramedics around, maybe trying to stop the
>: bleeding, or take the knife out of the floor so that they could pick
>: him up and take him to a hospital.
>
>he is, with the knife still lodged in his body, is *exactly* the right
>thing to do. My memory is that the knife isn't near any vital organs, so
>the only real danger he's in would result from loss of blood, and
>bleeding will be limited so long as the knife remains where it is. Once
>medical professionals arrive, the knife can be removed, as they'll be
>equipped to cauterize the wounds or apply necessary pressure or whatever
>it is they'd do in that situation. I don't think the cops would touch him.
>That said, I don't believe that Hodge and Boyle really give a damn
>whether their ending "makes sense" from a forensic standpoint. They
>wanted a certain effect, and they got it.
>
>Mike "shallow analysis" D'Angelo
Agreed about all the vital organs having been missed and the knife
stemming any bleeding.
One of the best reasons for thinking he is alive is the way the ending is
shot - first we think he's dead and everything is rather bleak and moral,
then we cut to him smiling knowingly, followed by a shot of the money
underneath the floorboards. Implication being that he's not only gonna
live but he's gonna get away with the money to (a brilliantly upbeat and
immoral ending which made the film).
gareth SAP...@cf.ac.uk
Dennis Cayton
"John D. Cotter" <jdco...@execpc.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
> My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
>at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
>to the inspector. My friend says he's still alive.
> What's the consensus?
Alive. Unless I missed a deadly sneak attack, I can't imagine how a
shoulder/collarbone wound could be fatal. He also smiled and no one ever
covered him up.
Dennis
LD GLYNN
I agree, but I still have my doubts....did you notice how the police were
still taking photographs, but nobody was talking to Alex, and there
weren't any paramedics or somebody taking care of the wound or
anyhting???
Spooky huh?
Lukas Glynn
Andrew Wong
I think, according to the script, he's dead and he's talking from "beyond
the grave"...
--
Andrew Wong WWW: http://www.brad.ac.uk/%7Eachwong/
-----x----- Internet: ach...@bradford.ac.uk
Let me be the first person to wish you, very sincerely, a happy
Christmas and a merry, slightly blurred New Year.
David Nash
>
> These were LD GLYNN's words of wisdom:
> : Dennis Cayton (cdc...@durhamnews.net) wrote:
> : : >Hello,
> : : > My friend and I are having a "discussion" over Alex's fate
> : : >at the end of "Shallow Grave." I say he's dead when he's "talking"
> : : >to the inspector.
{Snip}
> : : Alive. Unless I missed a deadly sneak attack, I can't imagine how a
> : : shoulder/collarbone wound could be fatal. He also smiled and no one ever
> : : covered him up.
>
> : I agree, but I still have my doubts....
{Snip}
>
> I think, according to the script, he's dead and he's talking from "beyond
> the grave"...
The script may indeed leave Alex dead, but I'm sure the *actual* film
left
the audience believing him to be alive (since its such a happy ending -
y'know
the smart-ALEX! gets the girl (or in this case the booty))
It would seem to me, to be real justice if he had died though. Think
about
this:
David - The Accountant and certified Fruitloop is basically
finished in both his job and life. (Not a very nice
person now, both murders and double crossing) = DEATH
Alex - The inhuman reporter (paraphrase "well, if theres no
animals, then there is no human perspective"). Double
crosses both his flat mates and is too pushy on David
to perform the smashing and hacking on Hugo.
Juliet - Lead astray by Alex. Doesn't actually run until the
situation is almost impossible (David Dead, Alex
incapable of travelling to Brazil (or wherever)).
Of the three she has the only job that really *HELPS*
people (a doctor)
So Juliet is punished but not Killed - everything is fair!
(Although she is a wanted woman now! - perhaps not that fair)
My Two pennies
David
--
.sig has gone for a bit of a lie down
Alan Head
I had this discussion with my friends when I first saw the film, and
could not resolve the argument. I personally think he is dead. What
people have overlooked is the fact that the only way to unimpale (is
that a word?) from the floor would be to take the floorboards up, thus
revealing the money and landing him in a fair amount of trouble. He is
unlikely to be smiling at this prospect...
--
Alan Head
Student, University of Nottingham, England
Pento
(snip)
> >The script may indeed leave Alex dead, but I'm sure the *actual* film
> >left
> >the audience believing him to be alive (since its such a happy ending -
> >y'know
> >the smart-ALEX! gets the girl (or in this case the booty))
> >
> >David
then A Head wrote>
> I had this discussion with my friends when I first saw the film, and
> could not resolve the argument. I personally think he is dead. What
> people have overlooked is the fact that the only way to unimpale (is
> that a word?) from the floor would be to take the floorboards up, thus
> revealing the money and landing him in a fair amount of trouble. He is
> unlikely to be smiling at this prospect...
>
> --
> Alan Head
> Student, University of Nottingham, England
I'm stunned that anyone would even THINK Alex was alive! Dead as dead
can be and talking to us from some astral plane while he watches bemused
the results of a few moments of greed in the folly of youth which screwed
up a previously reasonable existence....makes you think eh? And of course
NOone will end up with the money - it'll rot there!
Barbara
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~penton/ ** movie related page and other
** good stuff!! **
"..cinema - it can be a reel-moving experience.."
Cliff Heller
>I'm stunned that anyone would even THINK Alex was alive! Dead as dead
>can be and talking to us from some astral plane while he watches bemused
>the results of a few moments of greed in the folly of youth which screwed
>up a previously reasonable existence....makes you think eh? And of course
>NOone will end up with the money - it'll rot there!
I'm just as stunned that anyone would think he's dead. He's moving. His
lips move. He laughs. His injury is non-fatal. The other "dead" narrator
lies motionless with pale skin while you hear a voice-over.
Plus the way the score breaks into an uplifting tune as the camera pans
down to reveal the money. This is all meant to indicate that he is alive,
he won, he outsmarted the others.
Perhaps you are confusing Alex with David. David is the one who talks to
us from beyond while lying on the slab. Alex says "hello detective
inspector" and starts to laugh. He never talks to the audience.
Tomas Apodaca
In article <penton-3004...@slali1p26.ozemail.com.au>,
Pento <pen...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>I'm stunned that anyone would even THINK Alex was alive! Dead as dead
>can be and talking to us from some astral plane while he watches bemused
>the results of a few moments of greed in the folly of youth which screwed
>up a previously reasonable existence....makes you think eh? And of course
>NOone will end up with the money - it'll rot there!
He is very much alive, according to the director of the film:
( @ http://www.foresight.co.uk/pvl/grave/irc.html )
HEY!! DID EWAN GET OFF SCOTT FREE?? AT THE END OF THE FILM, THAT IS...
JOHN: Ewan is alive and free for the sequel
Tomas
Alan Head
Thinking further on this point (and reinforcing the fact he's dead)
why the hell are the cops taking photos? AFAIK, they don't bother
taking pictures of live people at crime scenes.
Alan Head
Christopher Roberson
Alan Head (ah...@feature.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Thinking further on this point (and reinforcing the fact he's dead)
: why the hell are the cops taking photos? AFAIK, they don't bother
: taking pictures of live people at crime scenes.
Maybe not ... but maybe they think, wrongly, that he's dead. Or maybe
they *do* take pictures of crime scenes when they think it'll be
necessary for proper collection of evidence.
(During the fuss over O. J. Simpson in the US recently, several news
sources pointed out that scrupulous police detectives often videotape
their evidence collection, so as to give the jury a good look at the
crime scene before it's been touched, and to indicate that they didn't
tamper with or plant evidence.)
--
Christopher Roberson Philosophy
rob...@umich.edu University of Michigan
Tomas Apodaca
Too bad there's no FAQ for this group... sigh. Try www.dejanews.com and
search for "Shallow Grave" to read the many arguments about just this
topic.
Tomas
In article <318688d0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Alan Head <ah...@feature.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Thinking further on this point (and reinforcing the fact he's dead)
>why the hell are the cops taking photos? AFAIK, they don't bother
>taking pictures of live people at crime scenes.
>
>Alan Head
Alex Fung
Tomas Apodaca (apo...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) writes:
> In article <penton-3004...@slali1p26.ozemail.com.au>,
> Pento <pen...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>>I'm stunned that anyone would even THINK Alex was alive!
>
> He is very much alive, according to the director of the film:
>
> ( @ http://www.foresight.co.uk/pvl/grave/irc.html )
>
> HEY!! DID EWAN GET OFF SCOTT FREE?? AT THE END OF THE FILM, THAT IS...
>
> JOHN: Ewan is alive and free for the sequel
Just to point out again, John Hodge was the screenwriter of "Shallow
Grave". Danny Boyle is the director of the film.
--
Alex Fung (aw...@freenet.carleton.ca)
"Now I see clearly. My whole life is pointed in one direction. I see that
now. There never has been any choice for me." - Robert DeNiro, _Taxi Driver_
Jennifer Stannard
I would think that the cops would be taking pictures of David,
who is dead. We have to remember that David was the narrator
throughout the entire movie. Therefore, it was probably him
narrating at the end. I guess Alex lives on, and David sees
the money under the panels as a spirit.
Alex may have passed out from the injury, while the cops may
have thought he was dead at first sight. This would explain
why Alex wasn't getting medical attention right away.
What do you think?
--
Jen Stannard (Myca)
"The gift of fantasy has meant more to me,
Than my talent to absorb positive knowledge"--Albert Einstein
Richard Joseph Rodriguez Jr
Sampsa Nuotio (snu...@news.hit.fi) wrote:
: Alan Head (ah...@feature.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : Thinking further on this point (and reinforcing the fact he's dead)
: : why the hell are the cops taking photos? AFAIK, they don't bother
: : taking pictures of live people at crime scenes.
: The cops in the movie are caricatures - they do everything wrong.
More than that, there *is* a dead body there. The one with the knife
sticking out of its throat lying on the kitchen floor next to him.
Andrew Burdett
In article <4md5t6$p...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jennifer Stannard) wrote:
>I would think that the cops would be taking pictures of David,
>who is dead. We have to remember that David was the narrator
>throughout the entire movie. Therefore, it was probably him
>narrating at the end. I guess Alex lives on, and David sees
>the money under the panels as a spirit.
>
>Alex may have passed out from the injury, while the cops may
>have thought he was dead at first sight. This would explain
>why Alex wasn't getting medical attention right away.
>
>What do you think?
I think you're right.
The police cameraman is taking pictures of Alex. We see him squinting. I'm
starting to think that maybe he HAD passed out, and was woken up by the flash,
but he was so convincing as a corpse that the medics hadn't bothered to check.
Drew.
"Attempted murder? It's not like he killed anybody!"