A SAD AND "WRONG" Drum Corps "TRADITION"
sope_s...@my-deja.com
Boy Scouts of America, Robert Baden-Powell, was a homosexual. Whoops!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
TessAyashe
should be shared with the Drum Corps Community... "I" find this explanation
very Sad and Extremely WRONG... Please read and think about this. I am
answering this in a posting because I feel it is something many should and can
think about.
Caviesguy wrote:
hi!
I read your post that basically summised ur opinions on cavies and scouts. i
get teh feeling that u think of them as a lesser corps for being all-male. I
dont mean to sounds like an ass or a woman-hater or anything, but the reason
those corps are all-male is b/c of tradition. And tradition is a very integral
part of every corps, and should not be taken lightly. I realize you have your
opinions concerning them, but please realize that tradition reigns above else
in many people hearts and minds in the drum corps activity.
Woody
Carol Ann Fallon is replying to this and I want everyone to understand my
feelings towards this. "NO ONE" in the Drum Corps community and family has
more respect for TRADITION than I do. But I strongly feel that keeping
females out of a Drum and Bugle Corps in the name of "Tradition" is pure
discrimination and is wrong. Young man, I have been going head to head with
this most of my Drum Corps Life which has been since the age of 5 and I am now
50 and still an active member. In years past and present some Drum Corps have
felt it also their tradition to discriminate against not only "Females," but
Black People, and Gay People. In 1970 I remember well sitting outside a
rehearsal room of a corps I wanted to belong to more than anything in the
world. But it was their "Tradition" not to allow Woman or Black People in
their corps or rehearsal room. It took many years of begging and the fortitude
of a Black Gentleman to break this terrible wrong doing. Soon after they
opened their eyes, hearts and minds and also accepted females. (Back then
people didn't even discuss the possibility of Gay people in Drum Corps.) Do
you also feel it is the right of any corps to discriminate against Black People
or Gay People in the name of "TRADITION" in today's world? Hmmmmmm, I doubt
it seriously. Then WHY would any organization have the right to discriminate
against FEMALES? Would you like me to give you a list of the Drum Corps
that have more "Tradition" and still have respect for their corps "Tradition,"
then Cavies and Madison have in their little toe, but have snapped out of it
and opened their Hearts, Minds and "Brains" to face the real integral issue
here. "Discrimination is WRONG"...... Period. So PLEASE, don't insult the
word "TRADITION." All I can say is that Cavies and Madison should only be
thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI. But mark my words, someday
some young, talented young lady will put an end to their discrimination.
Carol Ann Fallon
Drum Corps Family Member and Performer '56 to 'Present and Forever
S Muncy100
>thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI.
I'M sure pretty thankful your still not marching.
Paul Muncy
WildKardde
>some young, talented young lady will put an end to their discrimination.
Geez, why can't you just let these organizations be? Why does there have to be
some kind of superwoman that comes and puts an end to the things that many
people hold sacred? there are umpteen other corps in the world, but you feel
the need to spew forth all this feminist rhetoric because there are two corps
that choose to keep their roots alive. in my meaningless opinion you should
just live and let live on this particular issue...
Zach Daniels
Mandarins '98 Contra
TessAyashe
From: <A HREF="mailto:tessa...@aol.com ">tessa...@aol.com </A> (TessAyashe)
Date: Fri, 30 July 1999 01:24 AM EDT
Message-id: <19990730012431...@ng-fy1.aol.com>
Caviesguy wrote:
Woody
word "TRADITION." All I can say is that Cavies and Madison should only be
thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI. But mark my words, someday
some young, talented young lady will put an end to their discrimination.
Carol Ann Fallon
SOAtlanta
Cavaliers got their start from a boy scout troop and that still plays a major
role in their decision to be all male. Besides that, if you really want to
march, don't be such a damn troublemaker and march Phantom or Colts or one of
the many excellent co-ed drum corps in the midwest. I hate people that try to
start s**t just to get recognized. Well, it's about time we all say "to hell
with you." Stop trying to break tradition. Besides that, you'll lose.
Sean Taylor
Charles T Torgerson III
FRATER: A brother or comrade, especially as in a fraternity.
FRATERNITY: 1. Of or characteristic of a brother or brothers; brotherly. 2.
Of or like a fraternal order or a fraternity.
SORORITY: A group of women or girls joined together by common interests, for
fellowship, etc.
Please explain to me how a fraternal organization, such as The Cavaliers and
The Madison Scouts are discriminating against anybody. Likewise, are The
Bandettes and The Citations discriminating?
Both The Cavaliers and The Scouts trace their history back to Boy Scout
Units.
Would Ms. Fallon be happier to see little girls running around in the
Cub/Boy Scouts and see little boys joining the girl scouts? Is the Veteran's
Administration discriminating against you if you aren't a veteran? Is the
AARP discriminating against you if you are under 50 years old? Is the NAACP
discriminating against you if you aren't African American? What about the
Women's League of Voters? I bet they aren't letting men in, damn them!!!
Chip Torgerson
Carolina Crown '92 - '94
Contra/Lead Sop
TessAyashe <tessa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990730012431...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Charles T Torgerson III
to one situation and not to another. Why is it okay for the Boy Scouts to be
an all male organization, but it isn't okay for these two male corps, which
both started from Boy Scout Units to be all male organizations. If you feel
one is discriminatory, then, logically you must believe that the other and
all the other examples I listed are as well.
Chip Torgerson
Carolina Crown '92 - '94
Contra/Lead Sop
*Remove The "X" To Reply*
----- Original Message -----
From: <TessA...@aol.com>
To: <charlest...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: A SAD AND "WRONG" Drum Corps "TRADITION"
> This is Drum and Bugle Corps.... and the "Belle's of St. Mary's" also
> opened up to males.
CherMyDrms
I'M sure pretty thankful your still not marching.
Paul Muncy
>>LOL, but I am still marching and having a great time. P.S. I have also
planted many strong seeds both male and female.
VKGARRY73
Carrol, I listened to your point, and the rebuttals, but I have to disagree.
Let me give you a for instance (though it's not DC related).
Down the street from me is a gym called "Naturally Women". It does not allow
male members. Why? Shouldn't I have the right to join a gym which is
geographically closest to where I live? Isn't this discriminatory as well?
This whole discussion reeks of the "Hooters" discrimination suit brought by
some guys a couple of years ago. What a load of hooey that was! Why would i
want to see some guy in tight orange shorts and a low cut T-shirt! (Especially
one of those really hairy guys that looks like he's wearing a sweater to the
beach in August!)
There are a couple of all-girl units left, too. Should a guy have the right to
"crash the gates" there, too?
Enjoy the differences in the sexes. Celebrate our unique approach to life. This
whole PC thing is getting ridiculous.
Don't get me started on warning labels and the gene pool!
I respect your view, but have to disagree.
VKG
"We are the people our parents warned us about"
Remove "byte-me" from address to respond by e-mail
cymba...@my-deja.com
have given anything to break their gender barrier to play cymbals for
Madison.
This year she is a very proud member of the Southwind cymbal line. As
you may know, Southwind is a member of the Madison Drum and Bugle Corps
Association. They provide the same opportunity and philosophy for the
members of Southwind and Capital Sound as they do for the Scouts, with a
different emphasis on membership for each corps.
There is indeed a place for all-male or all-female corps and Madison,
the Cavies and the Bandettes should be allowed to retain their
traditional membership restrictions.
Though she is loves the Madison fleur-de-lie and the Southwind
connection with the Madison Scouts, I don't think my daughter would ever
consider trading her black and yellow Southwind member jacket for a
Scouts green jacket.
EvilTuba
>
>FRATERNITY: 1. Of or characteristic of a brother or brothers; brotherly. 2.
>Of or like a fraternal order or a fraternity.
I am a brother of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, a prfessional music fraternity. We do
have some female "brothers". There was a lot od animosity when the first
females pledged, many years ago, but in no way did it destroy the tradition of
the fraternity. Tis argument dosen't wash.
>SORORITY: A group of women or girls joined together by common interests, for
>fellowship, etc.
There are also some male "sisters" in tau Beta Sigma, a national band srority.
>Please explain to me how a fraternal organization, such as The Cavaliers and
>The Madison Scouts are discriminating against anybody. Likewise, are The
>Bandettes and The Citations discriminating?
By not allowing open membership.
By the way, not all discrimination is wrong...just make sure you call it what
it is.
>Both The Cavaliers and The Scouts trace their history back to Boy Scout
>Units.
I'm not sure about Cavies, but Scouts are an official Explorer Post. Oh, there
are female Explorer Scouts.
John
Frank Schoenbach
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote:
<huge snip of PC babble>
Well Carol, number one---YOU DON'T POST PRIVATE E-MAILS
Number two--tell us what you did in your jr. corps days to end
"discrimination" at Blessed Sacrament and Garfield and the Bon Bon's.
Number three--So how do you feel about the Bandettes?? Are they
dicriminatory bitches?
Number four--the Scouts and Cavaliers are PRIVATE organizations. What
they do is up to them, not you or anyone else on the outside. Just
how have you been damaged by them being all male? Were you damaged
somehow by the Bon Bon's being all girl?
Number five--I've marched both all male and coed corps and was on the
BOD of an all girl corps. All were special in their own way. And the
unigender corps had a special thing about them, they were UNIQUE. No
one else was or is like them. There is something special about that.
Leave it alone Carol, there's not a thing you can do about it.
There's more important things in this world to worry about that
actually effect the lives of millions.
James A. Chappell
A SAD AND "WRONG" Drum Corps "THREAD"
--
James A. Chappell http://members.primary.net/~chappell
"Why don't you listen to something really classical
like Mozart, Mendelsohn or Motorhead?" --Arnold Judas Rimmer
Reel Feel
right now, so I'll limit it to this:
Marching Cavies and Madison (and any other corps, for that matter) is a
PRIVILEGE, so don't treat it like it is a RIGHT. It's not Cavies and Madison's
*responsiblity* to allow a woman to march. It is their choice.
So long as the Constitution means anything, it will always be this way.
Sorry.
Matt
mike...@my-deja.com
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote:
> Subject: A SAD AND "WRONG" Drum Corps "TRADITION"
> From: <A HREF="mailto:tessa...@aol.com ">tessa...@aol.com </A>
(TessAyashe)
> Date: Fri, 30 July 1999 01:24 AM EDT
> Message-id: <19990730012431...@ng-fy1.aol.com>
>
my
> feelings towards this. "NO ONE" in the Drum Corps community and
family has
> more respect for TRADITION than I do. But I strongly feel that
keeping
> females out of a Drum and Bugle Corps in the name of "Tradition" is
pure
> discrimination and is wrong.
Carol,
I certainly agree with you on this one, but I would like to see it be a
voluntary move by the corps administrations to open up their membership
to the other HALF of the population currently excluded.
Legally I feel that a group can should be able to do what it likes
regarding who it lets in and who it does NOT let in, but morally I wish
they'd 'see the light' and open the doors.
This notion of 'tradition' is a bunch of baloney on this issue, IMO.
Garfield was all male for decades, opened the door to gals in the guard
in 69 (incorporating the defunct Little Falls Cadets guard en' masse),
and eventually all sections became co-ed, and Garfield/CBC has as much
tradition as any corps out there.
Tradition isn't the horns/drums they play on, or the discriminatory
membeship rules, or the breaking ranks idiocy, it's the life-experience
and performance experience the corps provides to it's members over a
long period of time.
Failing a voluntary move, maybe DCI could set up a requirement that NO
corps may engage in membership discrimination of any type and still
compete in a DCI-sanctioned show. That way, it's up to the corps to
either change or go someplace else.
The one thing I'd hate to see is some sort of legal court battle,
because I feel it IS up to the corps or governing organization to make
the decision on their/it's own.
Mike, Garfield 70-72
Jasser1900
unique approach being performed by a female. I really can't, and I don't mean
that in a sexist way. What I'm saying is that what they do is designed for
males. Just as roles are written for males or females in film and broadway.
No one would call an audition for a male lead "unfair" for excluding females.
It's understood the the writer has artistic choices to make. This is not
unlike the designers for the Cavies. The roles they design are for males. To
have a female performer in the Cavies would be like having a female Romeo or a
male Scarlet O'Hara. It may politically correct but artistically different than
what was intended. Just my opinion.
Don Avery
Tecumseh HS
teri
worry about the pressure imposed by being around the other sex. Organizations
like the Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Fraternities, Sororities, and even the United
States Marines recognize the advantages of seperating the sexes. However, some
people prefer to spend their time in co-ed groups, co-ed fraternities, and even
co-ed drum corps. It is up to the personal opinion of each individual to
decide if he or she would like to be in a segregated or intergrated atmosphere.
The Cavaliers and the Scouts are not discriminating. They are providing an
outlet for males to perform in an all male environment. Those future drum
corps members who would like to be in a co-ed corps should go and audition for
one of the numerous co-ed corps out there.
All I can tell from this post and it's responses is that people are trying to
make a splash, become the first female crossing a "line of oppression", or are
simply jealous. Yes, while there are both all male and all female corps, most
people do not know of these female corps. I say rather than bashing on all
males corps, these disgruntled females should join an all female corps and push
for them to make a Division 1 top twelve spot. If someday this would happen, I
guarantee that the tables would turn. In the meantime, let things as they are.
Teri Hennigan
Steve Sorrell
I'm curious to know how you got an email that looks like it was from Carol Ann
Fallon to a guy named Woody? How are you involved in this?
>(Back then
>people didn't even discuss the possibility of Gay people in Drum Corps.)
Back then, the word "gay" was not even used to describe a homosexual.
Homosexuals did not really "come out" until the 80s. Before then, they were
quiet and closeted, but you can bet, they were there. You think that there
were no gay persons in Drum corps back then? Take your blinders off, lady.
> Do
>you also feel it is the right of any corps to discriminate against Black People
>or Gay People in the name of "TRADITION" in today's world?
Considering that there are an awful lot of homosexuals and blacks involved in
our activity, this question is simply ridiculous.
> Would you like me to give you a list of the Drum Corps
>that have more "Tradition" and still have respect for their corps "Tradition,"
>then Cavies and Madison have in their little toe,
Yeah, I would like to see this list. Madison and Cavies in my opinion have
more respect for tradition than most other corps on the field.
> but have snapped out of it
>and opened their Hearts, Minds and "Brains" to face the real integral issue
>here. "Discrimination is WRONG"...... Period. So PLEASE, don't insult the
>word "TRADITION." All I can say is that Cavies and Madison should only be
>thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI.
If you were still of age to march, why would you want to march in Cavies or
Madison? Would you really want to go on tour with 127 guys? Why would you
want to press a "non-issue" to the point of causing such a stir that all drum
corps could be damaged by your actions? Is that the legacy that you would
have yourself remembered by?
> But mark my words, someday
>some young, talented young lady will put an end to their discrimination.
I doubt it. Most young talented ladies respect Madison and Cavies for what
they are. Can you say "respect"?
Steve
Terri Everett
drum corps:
First, I find it terribly unethical to share private e-mails in a
public forum, unless you have gotten the express permission of the
sender. I hope you had their permission first.
Second, As a woman, I feel compelled to respond to your remarks. In my
opinion there is nothing wrong with all-male or all-female corps. A few
other posters to the thread said it best: marching drum corps is a
privilege, not a right. These are private organizations. They owe women
nothing in terms of membership. There is nothing misogynistic about
their practices. They simply started as all male and continue to
practice that tradition as it is their right.
I know the line is blurry regarding discrimination. But there are
places where gender equality does not apply, and this is one of them.
Yes, there have been discriminatory practices that had to end:
segregated restaurants and schools, the exclusion of women at the
executive level in the workplace, etc. However, these were not
"traditions." These were simply discriminatory practices based on
hatred and fear.
Please, let some of the good traditions of the world continue. Don't
try to eliminate them for the sake of blending our society into a
whitewashed, bland, colorless, genderless existence. Sometimes it is
our differences that make us most interesting.
Respectfully,
Terri Everett
Nighthawks 1983-84
Troopers 1985-86, 1988
Troopers Staff 1992
Steve Sorrell
I disagree with a female in the two corps, but I certainly also disagree that
a female could not perform the show as a member of the brass or percussion. I
don't see how those member's performance are particularly written for "male
only". Guard? Sure, that IS written for an all male guard.
Steve
>
>Don Avery
>Tecumseh HS
MQP2city
Most sororities are actually fraternities in structure. On the Northwestern
University campus of the 10-15 sororities, only one was a true sorority, the
rest were all fraternities including mine, Chi Omega.
Explorer Troops have female members. Troopers were an Explorer Troop when I
marched, and through them I was a boy scout/explorer. I got mail from the boy
scouts for years after I finished marching.
Regarding all male corps...sorry, I side with what I've been reading. The
Scouts and Cavaliers are private organizations, and so can self select. As long
as there are comparable organizations to join for women, I won't object to
this. Now, maybe 30 years ago the top 10 corps were all male, so there weren't
similiar high quality organizations to join, I don't know. But, as I've noted
above, Troopers have always been co-ed and they were top 5 at that time, so
that negates the above theory. In fact, I believe the Troopers were the first
corps to have women in all sections of the corps, not just the color guard. At
least, that's what the "old timers" on RAMD told me. I know for sure the
Troopers' first center snare was a woman which would have been 1957.
We've actually come quite a long way since the 60s and 70s in women's rights on
all fronts. Not only with more opportunities for women in DC, but in all
aspects of society. For example, as a female physician I feel very comfortable
performing my job and feel as though I am a highly respected and desired part
of the medical community. 25 years ago I would say the majority of the female
physicians would not say that.
I'd like to thank those women, such as you Carol Ann Fallon, for opening all
those doors for me so that I do not feel discriminated against. I know it was a
tough fight, and I thank you.
Becky Parker
Troopers member '86-'90, staff '92, '96
PS Anyone interested on how far women have come should check out when Newsweek
did a cover on the subject since the founding of Ms. Magazine. It was about a
year ago. I think we generation Xers and Yers would be ASTOUNDED at the
blantant discrimination against women 25 years ago. I know I was! It's truly
amazing how far we've come as a society. And amazing how far ahead the U.S. is
compared to the rest of the world in regards to women's rights.
mike...@my-deja.com
> As a former Cavie I think one thing is being overlooked. Can you
imagine their
> unique approach being performed by a female. I really can't, and I
don't mean
> that in a sexist way. What I'm saying is that what they do is designed
for
> males.
How do you EVER see anything like that? They play, they march, just like
all the other corps. Gender has nothing to do with it.
snip...
> This is not
> unlike the designers for the Cavies. The roles they design are for
males. To
> have a female performer in the Cavies would be like having a female
Romeo or a
> male Scarlet O'Hara.
Besides playing and marching at a very high level of excellence (as the
Cavies do), exactly what ARE these special Cavie roles that ONLY a guy
can perform?
MacBe31655
played by a woman (girl), and I am
sure there are plenty of males who could
have played Scarlet O'Hara. . .
RDeschene
>>FRATER: A brother or comrade, especially as in a fraternity.
>>
>>FRATERNITY: 1. Of or characteristic of a brother or brothers; brotherly. 2.
>>Of or like a fraternal order or a fraternity.
>
>I am a brother of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, a prfessional music fraternity. We do
>have some female "brothers". There was a lot od animosity when the first
>females pledged, many years ago, but in no way did it destroy the tradition of
>the fraternity. Tis argument dosen't wash.
>
<snip>
And while in college, I was a member of Sigma Alpha Iota, which (at
least back in those days) referred to itself as a professional music
fraternity for women, not a sorority. (I think part of that came from
the feeling that if SAI called itself a sorority, it would be confused
with a social sorority, when it was a professional organization.)
I worked for Phi Mu Alpha at its national headquarters for a number of
years, and watched with interest as the number of female members grew
during that time. There was some opposition to allowing women to join,
but for the most part, I didn't sense any major opposition to it.
And I was always amused by the fact that when I worked there, all the
employees at the national headquarters--save the executive director
and the groundskeeper--were women. And only one of those women, as far
as I know, went on to become a member of Phi Mu Alpha. (Not me. For
whatever reason, I wasn't interested. Maybe because I was already a
member of SAI.)
Sue
CBHowards
Supreme court has ruled, in similar cases, in favor of the Cavailiers and
Madison. I addition There was a case brought and Cavaliers won. For two
reasons. One, Cavaliers is a private orginazation. Therefore allowed to set the
rules for mambership. Second, there are (although less now) several nearby good
corps for women to participate in. Therefore there is no discrimination against
entry into the activity.
By the way, have you been in support of the all-female groups? Do you teach?
Donate time, money, and effort into one of these groups. The real victory, for
you, should be to have a all-femalr crops in the top 12, or better yet win the
whole thing! That for you would be a more constructive "vent" for your
feelings. Rather than to destroy. Don't you think?
As for Cavaliers being women haters. Hehehehehehee. Not quite, As a Cavalier
said in the late70's " I have the rest of my life in a co-ed world". As for
gays. I doubt that there appearance is a new one in drum corps. Society as a
whole as learned to accept them on better terms. Their discrimination had
nothing to do with this activity. Gays were always there, you just now have
noticed them, or rather quite denying there existense. So, what are your "real"
aims? Are you a man hater? Are you still trying to figure out the secret
password to the mens club? If it is equality and respect you seek, I suggest
you stop looking at the Cavaliers, Madison, The Chicago Bears, The Boy Scouts,
and any other all male group and look at your self. The answer is within. Your
self esteem will not improve because a girl is in Madison or Cavaliers. It
would only sink lower. revenge does that to people. Who are you really so mad
at? I doubt it is Cavaliers or Madison.
I hope you come through this, but I fear this experience will only make it
worse for you.
I truly hope one day you see that acceptance, not tolerance of the differences
that are in all of us. Celebrate the difference! You do not have to like all
difference, but God Bless America it is there!!!
Chris Grahn-Howard
A Cavalier 1981-1985\1987
" If everbody is thinking alike, then no one is really thinking" Henry Ford
RDeschene
<chris...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Good arguement, dont want to get into too much Pollitical correctness but
>I was just curious what you would think if there was a top 12 all girl
>drumcorps out there. Remember the now defunct Ventures ( I
>used to march them) or the Bandettes and also (I think they were called)
>the Chatelaines.
>
My mom loved Ventures. I'm not sure if it's because she's a feminist,
or if she just really liked the corps (I suspect it's a combination of
the two), but she *still* talks about Ventures: "I remember that
all-girls corps. They were so good!" :-)
Sue
RDeschene
>While waiting for the Scores to come in, I received this e-mail which I felt
>should be shared with the Drum Corps Community... "I" find this explanation
>very Sad and Extremely WRONG... Please read and think about this. I am
>answering this in a posting because I feel it is something many should and can
>think about.
>
<snip>
Regardless of my opinion on this subject, did you ask the author's
permission before posting private e-mail on a public newsgroup?
If not, I'll repeat what I wrote to Ryan:
Generally, it's not good netiquette to post private e-mail on a public
newsgroup without the author's permission. The author doesn't have to
inform the recipient in advance; it's a given. If you want to get into
copyright technicalities, it's because the author of a letter, e-mail
or otherwise, is the holder of the copyright, and as such, is the one
who is supposed to decide how that letter will be distributed. When
you post a letter, e-mail or otherwise, on a newsgroup, that's a form
of publication, and, as with any other copyrighted material, you need
to have permission from the author.
But beyond that, it's just common courtesy to ask permission first.
See:
An Official Usenet Primer
http://www.deja.com/info/primer5.shtml
The two paragraphs relevant to this subject are about halfway through
the article; one addresses copyrighted work and the other addresses
private e-mail correspondence.
No matter what my opinion is on the topic of "all-male corps," it's
not a good idea, IMO, to retaliate by posting private e-mail on a
public newsgroup without the author's permisssion.
Sue
P.S. Though, for what it's worth, there are only two all-male corps in
existence, with plenty more corps to choose from. If Cavaliers and
Madison were the only two corps to choose from in all of drum corps,
then I could understand the opposition to them being all-male. But
they're not the only corps out there. There was a time when most, if
not all, corps were once all-male, but most are not anymore. So, any
woman who wants to march corps has plenty to choose from who are not
all-male. I don't see any reason to challenge Cavies' and Madison's
tradition on this.
Dean Abbott
Christine McIntosh <chris...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:37A13ACC...@sympatico.ca...Good arguement, dont want to get into too much Pollitical correctness but I was just curious what you would think if there was a top 12 all girl drumcorps out there. Remember the now defunct Ventures ( I used to march them) or the Bandettes and also (I think they were called) the Chatelaines.TessAyashe wrote:
While waiting for the Scores to come in, I received this e-mail which I felt
should be shared with the Drum Corps Community... "I" find this explanation
very Sad and Extremely WRONG... Please read and think about this. I am
answering this in a posting because I feel it is something many should and can
think about.
Caviesguy wrote:
hi!
I read your post that basically summised ur opinions on cavies and scouts. i
get teh feeling that u think of them as a lesser corps for being all-male. I
dont mean to sounds like an ass or a woman-hater or anything, but the reason
those corps are all-male is b/c of tradition. And tradition is a very integral
part of every corps, and should not be taken lightly. I realize you have your
opinions concerning them, but please realize that tradition reigns above else
in many people hearts and minds in the drum corps activity.
Woody
Carol Ann Fallon is replying to this and I want everyone to understand my
feelings towards this. "NO ONE" in the Drum Corps community and family has
more respect for TRADITION than I do. But I strongly feel that keeping
females out of a Drum and Bugle Corps in the name of "Tradition" is pure
discrimination and is wrong. Young man, I have been going head to head with
this most of my Drum Corps Life which has been since the age of 5 and I am now
50 and still an active member. In years past and present some Drum Corps have
felt it also their tradition to discriminate against not only "Females," but
Black People, and Gay People. In 1970 I remember well sitting outside a
rehearsal room of a corps I wanted to belong to more than anything in the
world. But it was their "Tradition" not to allow Woman or Black People in
their corps or rehearsal room. It took many years of begging and the fortitude
of a Black Gentleman to break this terrible wrong doing. Soon after they
opened their eyes, hearts and minds and also accepted females. (Back then
people didn't even discuss the possibility of Gay people in Drum Corps.) Do
you also feel it is the right of any corps to discriminate against Black People
or Gay People in the name of "TRADITION" in today's world? Hmmmmmm, I doubt
it seriously. Then WHY would any organization have the right to discriminate
against FEMALES? Would you like me to give you a list of the Drum Corps
that have more "Tradition" and still have respect for their corps "Tradition,"
then Cavies and Madison have in their little toe, but have snapped out of it
and opened their Hearts, Minds and "Brains" to face the real integral issue
here. "Discrimination is WRONG"...... Period. So PLEASE, don't insult the
word "TRADITION." All I can say is that Cavies and Madison should only be
thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI. But mark my words, someday
some young, talented young lady will put an end to their discrimination.
Carol Ann Fallon
bny...@my-deja.com
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote:
> While waiting for the Scores to come in, I received this e-mail which
I felt
> should be shared with the Drum Corps Community... "I" find this
explanation
> very Sad and Extremely WRONG... Please read and think about this.
I am
> answering this in a posting because I feel it is something many
should and can
> think about.
Oh yeah. I cannot wait to finish my reply to this one!
> Caviesguy wrote:
>
> hi!
> I read your post that basically summised ur opinions on cavies and
scouts. i
> get teh feeling that u think of them as a lesser corps for being all-
male. I
> dont mean to sounds like an ass or a woman-hater or anything, but the
reason
> those corps are all-male is b/c of tradition. And tradition is a
very integral
> part of every corps, and should not be taken lightly. I realize you
have your
> opinions concerning them, but please realize that tradition reigns
above else
> in many people hearts and minds in the drum corps activity.
>
> Woody
AND, his opinion is valid, but there is more...
> Carol Ann Fallon is replying to this and I want everyone to
understand my
> feelings towards this. "NO ONE" in the Drum Corps community and
family has
> more respect for TRADITION than I do. But I strongly feel that
keeping
> females out of a Drum and Bugle Corps in the name of "Tradition" is
pure
> discrimination and is wrong.
It is not discrimination if there are other units that females
can be a part of in DCI.
Obviously, you have not noticed that the majority of DCI
is CO-ED.
What about corps than bad MALES from colorguards?
What about the years that BD's hornline is ALL male...
or 60 male and 2 female?
It is not discrimination. A person must try out.
Cavaliers and Scouts are both derived from the
Boy Scouts of America. They have maintained that
heritage. Some corps went CO-ED... like the Kilts
back in the 70's.
Having marched in both co-ed and all male corps(pl),
I can say that the all-male tour is EASIER.
Housing issues are simple. 2 sets of showers for all
the members. Not one set for 100 guys and another for
28 girls. Isn't THAT discrimination?
I tell you what. If the girls and guys can shower together,
use the same restrooms, and sleep in close quarters
without discomfort, sexual implications/concerns, and
parental comfort, then I might agree that the tradition
could be altered. EVEN then, I'd prefer to see it maintained.
> Young man, I have been going head to head with
> this most of my Drum Corps Life which has been since the age of 5 and
I am now
> 50 and still an active member. In years past and present some Drum
Corps have
> felt it also their tradition to discriminate against not
only "Females," but
> Black People, and Gay People.
Hey, welcome to the real world. My all male corps had a large
number of gay males and black people. No outright discrimination
was present. As a matter of fact, it actually fostered tolerance
and understanding.
> In 1970 I remember well sitting outside a
> rehearsal room of a corps I wanted to belong to more than anything in
the
> world. But it was their "Tradition" not to allow Woman or Black
People in
> their corps or rehearsal room. It took many years of begging and the
fortitude
> of a Black Gentleman to break this terrible wrong doing. Soon after
they
> opened their eyes, hearts and minds and also accepted females. (Back
then
> people didn't even discuss the possibility of Gay people in Drum
Corps.) Do
> you also feel it is the right of any corps to discriminate against
Black People
> or Gay People in the name of "TRADITION" in today's world?
You are arguing apples and oranges. We do not have all gay
drum corps, now do we? It is unheard of.
You tell me why neither major US political party has an outright
gay candidate or a black candidate? I have no clue, but you
seem to have a deep set of knowledge to tap.
>Hmmmmmm, I doubt
> it seriously. Then WHY would any organization have the right to
discriminate
> against FEMALES? Would you like me to give you a list of the Drum
Corps
> that have more "Tradition" and still have respect for their
corps "Tradition,"
> then Cavies and Madison have in their little toe, but have snapped
out of it
> and opened their Hearts, Minds and "Brains" to face the real integral
issue
> here. "Discrimination is WRONG"...... Period.
Yes, it is. BUT, Madison and Cavaliers are not discriminating.
There are quality corps that women can join.
Do not give me the "local" member analogy. Nowadays, people
come from all over the world to march drum corps.
Even so, there is PR, Colts, Pioneer, Capital Sound, etc.
all near the Chicago and Madison areas.
> So PLEASE, don't insult the
> word "TRADITION." All I can say is that Cavies and Madison should
only be
> thankful that I am not still of age to march DCI. But mark my words,
someday
> some young, talented young lady will put an end to their
discrimination.
Woo-hoo! Go get 'em. Just like Hooters doesn't allow men to
be waitresses, drum corps can limit the ranks based on any number
of reasons. (BTW, a guy tried to become a Hooter girl and lost
in court... Hooters has other jobs for men).
TELL ME THIS YOU NARROW-MINDED PERSON: Isn't it discrimination
not to let a person join because they are 25?
Isn't it discrimination to limit the age? Madison has a 16-21
age limit... you are not bitching about those things?
What about being capable of walking in the horn line?
I saw very obese people get cut because they could not
hold their lunch during marching fundamental rehearsals.
You mean a person has to be in a certain amount of physical
good condition?
>
> Carol Ann Fallon
> Drum Corps Family Member and Performer '56 to 'Present and Forever
>
You argument is nothing but stirring the old pot. This is the
real world. I discriminated against all other women when I
limited the job to one person. I discriminated against
the entire world when I chose not to live in any community
other than my own. I will also discriminate when I go
out to eat Italian food.
Their is an Eagles song:
"Get Over It"
Barry
Scott Gordon
There are a number of all-women organizations that I'm sure most
feminists believe should remain all-women, such as all-girl
high schools. There are also local activities all the time
for women-only, things like support groups. There are national
organizations at all levels, from Brownies to Women in Science.
Public bathrooms are also segregated.
If you agree that some of the above are ok, then you'd have to
also agree that an all-male group MIGHT also be ok. Then you have
to decide if the basis for its being all-male is reasonable, and
decide whether it is a fight worth picking. If, on the other hand,
you think that an all-male corps is wrong SIMPLY because it is all-male,
then you'd have to agree that all of the aforementioned things
are discriminatory too and should be integrated.
Feminists tend to tread lightly on the issue of all-male schools, because
they realize that to ban them would open the door to banning all-female
schools, many of which are the best in the country and offer unparalleled
opportunities for women. So they pick their fights carefully.
Similarly, feminists are within their rights to argue that all-male
corps should be eliminated, but must decide within themselves that the
long tradition of great all-FEMALE corps was also wrong, and therefore
must be willing to part with the idea of opportunities for women to
form and/or join an all-female corps. As long as Ms.Fallon is arguing
that, then she is consistent, although I still think I disagree with
her in this case.
Incidentally, tradition alone is not a sufficient argument for maintaining
a discriminatory policy. After all, it was traditional for blacks to sit
in the back of the bus. To form a convincing argument on EITHER side,
requires going beyond the simplistic arguments that have been posted here.
Personally?.. I hope the Cavaliers and Scouts can stay all-male, and I
get goose-bumps listening to old tapes of the Audobon Bon Bons.
Scott
FStegall
>Boy Scouts of America, Robert Baden-Powell, was a homosexual
I have no idea of the sexual orientation of Baden-Powell, nor do I really care.
However, I would suggest that if you are going to post such things as this,
you check your facts. Baden-Powell founded the BOY SCOUTS - in England - not
the Boy Scouts of America.
A former Boy Scout.....
Floyd Stegall
Tour manager - several corps over several years....
Jeffsjetta
the decision to let what they didnt let in killed them also...my dad was there.
Let them be....if you make those corps accpet females then Bandettes have to
let in men...and forever a rabble rouser as yourself had ruined one of the few
true drum corps traditions left.
Go root for your kids and leave them alone.
Jeff Ream
bus...@excite.com
Jolson6060
Kosciuszko (sp?) Post 712 D&BC
Chicago, Park Ridge, Rosemont Cavaliers
From the first win at the Iowa State fair in 1952, the first national title in
57 (VFW), to 95 finals to right now, the Cavaliers have had more sucess than
damm near anybody. Ms. Fallon, with all due respect to your many years of
participation and service to the DC activity, their is no need to insult the
8-10,00 MEN who have marched with the Cavies and Scouts. The Cavaliers is a
Fraternal order. We have initiations, we were conceived from a Boy Scout Troop
and to compare our ways with that of racial discrimination is so ridiculous, I
can only shake my head in disbelief. From the neighborhood kids of the Logan
Square (Little Warsaw) and the vision of Mr. Don Warren came one of the most
honored DC's in history and the best thing to ever happen to me. Ms. Fallon,
why don't you leave this old subject the alone. I work in Air Intel, I could
give you some real problems to worry about.
John
JCSeymour
>unlike the designers for the Cavies. The roles they design are for males.
To
>have a female performer in the Cavies would be like having a female Romeo
or a
>male
Actually The cast were all male in Shakespeare day So you had a man playing
Juliet.
Sorry Don had to point that out :0)
JCSeymour
Terri Everett wrote in message
<300719990806292711%teve...@austin.rr.com>...
RDeschene
<snip>
>(Back then
>people didn't even discuss the possibility of Gay people in Drum Corps.)
<snip>
I have no doubt that many gays and lesbians *did* march corps in those
days. But back in '70, most gays and lesbians were in the closet about
their sexuality, and many pretended to be straight in order to be
accepted by society. It would've been no different in drum corps.
Sue
JCSeymour
Right Arm Nikk!!!
Some people do not understand that we have the right to choose.
When the Kilties voted to allow females into the corps I had reservations,
but I voted to let them in because it was for the good of the corps. Noone
forced us to do it. We chose to do it .
But on the other hand
Tear down the bathroom walls let everyone share. Heave too the all female
showers just let me have at them.
We will see if those feminist like having the fat man loose amongst them
Nikk Pilato
> I don't know the gal personally, so I really don't know the whole
> story about why she quit. But, while I think she should've stayed the
> course (after all, it was a course of her own choosing), I don't
> consider her a joke.
Well, Sue, we'll have to agree to disagree. Faulkner should have
known what she was in for...who in the world thinks of military school as
anything but one of the toughest experiences in your life? A buddy of
mine was an Army Ranger. We made a bet once...I would train with him for
8 hours. I give myself some credit...i hung in there for about 5 hours.
But I knew it was going to be tough...Shannon should have known the same
thing. And, in my eyes, her quitting made the whole affair look empty and
shallow.
> I tend to think that she's like a lot of basketball players who choose
> to play for Coach Bobby Knight at IU, and then leave. They *thought*
> they knew what it was going to be like going in, they *thought* they
> could foresee everything that would happen, how hard it was going to
> be, but no matter how much they tried to predict the future, it was a
> lot harder than they thought it was going to be. And, as it turned
> out, they were not equipped to handle it.
Good analogy.
> Happens to a lot of us, in a lot of different situations. It's just
> that in Shannon Faulkner's case, and in the case of the IU transfers
> over the past several years, it's a lot more publicized than what most
> of us go through.
True enough, but a lot of us also go through incredibly tough
experiences without wimping out. It's all about your courage and your
moral stamina, as much as physical stamina. In my eyes, she failed the
test. Just my two cents...
++
np
http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~pilato_n
"People are upset not by things, but by their ideas of things."
-Epictetus
Jedi51977
This notion of 'tradition' is a bunch of baloney on this issue, IMO.>>
WHAT??!!!
<<
Tradition isn't the horns/drums they play on, or the discriminatory
membership rules, or the breaking ranks idiocy, it's the life-experience
and performance experience the corps provides to it's members over a
long period of time.
>>
Don't you think that marching in an all-male "Fraternity" such as Madison
Scouts or Cavaliers is a life experience? The people that i know that have
marched there would probably argue with you on that one.
ALL corps have their own traditions, and who are we to question any of them.
As a private organization they have every right to allow ANY ONE THEY WANT to
join their ranks. There are around 100 or more Drum and Bugle corps in the US
where any female can march, and if that isn't fair, then i don't know what is.
"i'm pissed because SCV has a tradition of playing "Send in the Clowns" when
they win. i don't like that song, it discriminates against all composers who
didn't write it, and i think that they should have to change their song."
doug
ps: YES that was sarcasm
jim andrews
<snip>
1. You committed a greivous error by posting private email
to UseNet. You owe the sender an apology, big time.
2. The Scouts and the Cavaliers need not answer to anybody,
least of all those with axes that are in need of a good
sharpening. A private organization has the right to limit
membership as it sees fit. You make it sound as if these
two corps might as well be marching around in white robes
and hoods. Well, you're wrong. Being 50 and wrong is no
different than being 18 and wrong, except you should know
better.
3. You obviously have NO clue as to the amount of tradition
these two tremendous corps have, and I'm not talking about
their exploits on the field, either.
4. The day a woman marches in the Scouts or the Cavaliers
is the day DCI becomes completely meaningless. Do not
confuse selectivity with bigotry. It's stupid, lazy,
and demonstrates a remarkable lack of insight.
jim andrews
fmm cavaliers
jim andrews
That's two. How many more times are you planning
to post this drivel? Do you know how to work your
newsreader, or are you just being a pain in the ass?
jim andrews
fmm cavaliers
Frank Jacobson
Scout theories to the US. By the way...if you've ever studies Lord B-Ps
writings, several students of his writings think he may have had some
tendencies not conductive to Scouting!
jake
National Explorer/Venturing Instructor
Philmont, Class of 1988
Frank Jacobson
Bar-B-Cue ribs. My brother marched back then and the family would eat
downstair and listen to the music from stairs!
Ahh...the good old days!
jake
Nisei Ambassadors 68-71
NWV
jim andrews
>
> I can see it now... the first female boy scout. I'm almost positive that the
> Cavaliers got their start from a boy scout troop and that still plays a major
> role in their decision to be all male.
Yeah, a lot of older corps have their beginnings
in service organizations like scouting, etc. It's
not like my bailing out after Webelos kept me out
of the Cavaliers. Still, your point is valid.
Plus, we got more chicks (per guy) than the corps
that weren't all-male. Maybe that's because we were
only up against the Scouts. (The previous statement
is a JOKE. Sort of.)
jim andrews
fmm cavaliers
Etchnsktch
>be the first woman in the Citadel, and once she was in, what did she do?
>She quit her first week! You know what that sounds like to me? It sounds
>like someone who never had any desire to go to the Citadel, just someone
>who wanted notoriety, or wanted to feed a starving self-image. She broke
>down a barrier that was in place for a hundred years, and then once it was
>done, she lost interest, and in my eyes became a joke.
>
hahaha...I know Shannon Faulkner, she was the drum major for my high school
marching band. And I can tell that what you posted was RIGHT ON THE MONEY. She
had no interest in the tradition, all she wanted to do was see if she could get
in or not. Just for kicks .She made a total joke of herself in my eye as well.
Jeff Graham
94,95 xmen mello
Ryan
> I have loads to say on this topic, but I have to leave for
> Murfreesboro
> right now, so I'll limit it to this:
> Marching Cavies and Madison (and any other corps, for that matter)
> is a
> PRIVILEGE, so don't treat it like it is a RIGHT. It's not Cavies and
> Madison's
> *responsiblity* to allow a woman to march. It is their choice.
> So long as the Constitution means anything, it will always be
> this way.
> Sorry.
I'd like to be with you on that Constitution-meaning-something deal, but
do you realize that even our "legal tender" is unconstitutional? Just
one of many unconstitutional things we Americans accept as OK every day.
For the record, I am not arguing against your logic or stance here.
--
Ryan M. Powell
mailto:duh...@concentric.net
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address to reply; that is, unless you are clicking
on that link over there.)
Jammerjimm
choose! I want my righst! It's time to change!!!! All you seniors, it's time
to unite and join the jr corps of your choice!!! Revolt I say....REVOLT!!!!
(dripping with sarcasm)
EvilTuba
>I'd like to be with you on that Constitution-meaning-something deal, but
>do you realize that even our "legal tender" is unconstitutional? Just
>one of many unconstitutional things we Americans accept as OK every day.
>
>For the record, I am not arguing against your logic or stance here.
>
>--
>Ryan M. Powell
Ryan, how is our legal tender unconsitutional? I'm not being a smartass (at
least not now), i'm genuinely interested...
John Adcock
Waiting to be educated
S Muncy100
>played by a woman (girl),
<BR>
Wasn't it that Juliet was originally written to be played by a boy?
Paul Muncy
Ryan
> The Man in Black rode across the desert, and TessAyashe followed:
>
> <snip>
>
> The Velvet Knights were all-funny people, weren't they?
> ASSES!
> I couldn't join them because I don't have a sense of humour!
Hey Nikk, how come you seem to randomly pick certain words and spell
them like the English English-speaking do?
I have this reply from a while back about futbol, I mean football. I am
going to send it to you someday.
Nikk Pilato
> Hey Nikk, how come you seem to randomly pick certain words and spell
> them like the English English-speaking do?
I lived in Costa Rica from 1978 to 1982. While there I attended
an academy school...most if not all of my teachers were British. I don't
just pick certain words, i pretty much do the same ones all the time. ;)
Rumour, humour, favourite, colour, etc.
Sometimes I use centre, but more and more I have noticed myself
using center. I use theatre instead of theater, but don't worry...those
little pieces of paper from the bank are checks, not cheques. ;)
> I have this reply from a while back about futbol, I mean football. I am
> going to send it to you someday.
Whacha waiting for?
BDSCV
>The day a woman marches in the Scouts
>or the Cavaliers is the day DCI becomes
>completely meaningless.
What are some other days that DCI became meaningless?
My Top Ten that DCI became meaningless
1. The day the drummers stopped marching and became a noisy ice-cream truck
sounding thing called the Pit.
2. The day they put three (two, one) valves on the bugles.
3. The day the Tick system went away.
4. The day they voted to allow mutli-key instruments.
5. The day inspection was no longer required.
6. The day Gail Royer died.
7. The day they let girls in the Vanguard horn line.
8. The day the Kingsmen folded.
9. The day YEA was formed.
10. The day Star of Indiana left competition.
Am I missing any??
RDeschene
<snip>
>Am I missing any??
>
The day (insert name of any corps that has) folded.
Sue
Ryan H. Turner
You're DAMN tootin' you missed some...
1. The day VK was ALLOWED to fold...and thus take with it a certain flair and
attractiveness to the activity...(OK OK OK!!! Also Sky, Freelancers,
Marauders, Star, and the countless others that DCI seemingly DOESN'T
acknowledge...or have the power to help out...or whatever!)
2. The day melody and musical progression in music on the field was lost to
punch notes, effect chords, and the like...although I still like the mindless
and pointless runs that Garfield did in their shows...
3. When designers were allowed to rule the roost....oh wait...that's not MY
argument...never mind...
Anyway....I'm sure there's a lot more...
Good post...
Ryan H. Turner--Man w/NO life whatsover...and proud of it!!
MARCHING BAND, DRUM CORPS, WINTER GUARD FAN
VK DM 1986 and 1987
Show Design Consultant/Visual Consultant/Marching Instructor
911/Fire Dept Comm. Dispatcher...and a partridge in a pear tree!
GOP Pres
can't even believe that I have read all this garbage. I feveryone has such a
god damn problem with it, start your own damn corps, or go to the damn Colts,
or Phantom for crying out loud. They are a *PRIVATE* organization. Yes, repeat
after me, *P-R-I-V-A-T-E* there you go. And in that sense, they can do pretty
much whatever you want. I suppose you want to be the first white member of the
NAACP (for example) or I don't know, join the girls scouts? Hell, why should
women be the only ones who can have babies. I think we should ban them from
doing that from now on. Take your affirmative action bulls*&t and move along,
cause I have, and assume many others, have had enough.
Apologetically (for me and you)
NiCk
Flamcheez
"You don't need to see his identification."
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
Elizabeth Martorell
>
> I respect your view, but have to disagree.
>
> VKG
>
It seems to me, rather, that you may respect HER, but what you don't
respect is her VIEW. (I am a woman and do not agree with her view
either.) If you respected her view, wouldn't that mean you were close to
agreeing with it?
Just something to think about.
Matt022067
>played by a woman (girl),
>>
um ... No ... Romeo, as were all parts in Shakespearean plays, was meant to be
played by boys ... as was Juliet. There were no women allowed on the Globe
Theatre's stage. Check out the movie Shakespeare in Love ... it's a movie but
the main point is what I said above.
Nice try.
Matt
Chris
someone will, but I have been around drumcorps since the
late 60's, and with PR all that time. But I seem to recall
Cavies did try one year having women in the corps, and if my
memory serves me right, only one season, because it just
didn't work for them. It seems like it was in the 70's
somewhere, but could not get specific on what year. Can
anyone remember this time? Seems I remeber it being a
pretty big deal at the time, but it just wasn't the Cavies.
Chris Glasscoe
SUTA!
Martin McIsaac
"The World is Filled With So Many Grievous Wrongs, That I'm Compelled To Sing These Tedious Songs."
I think it was during the 60's.
Marty "liberals are only Republicans who haven't been mugged yet" McIsaac
Typical liberal, left-wing clone. Thinking with his emotions rather than logic
and reasoning.>Legally I feel that a group can should be able to do what it likes
>regarding who it lets in and who it does NOT let in, but morally I wish
>they'd 'see the light' and open the doors.
>
Legality is far more important than morality, just ask that aborted fetus.
Just ask your Clinton administration, they made up their own legal code. Not
to say a fraternal order deriving from a boy scout troop excluding chicks from
their ranks is immoral.
>
>This notion of 'tradition' is a bunch of baloney on this issue, IMO.
>Garfield was all male for decades, opened the door to gals in the guard
>in 69 (incorporating the defunct Little Falls Cadets guard en' masse),
>and eventually all sections became co-ed, and Garfield/CBC has as much
>tradition as any corps out there.Ya' forgot Holy Name. HN, which came form a local parish. A LOCAL PARISH, so
of course you're going to have broads sooner or later
>Tradition isn't the horns/drums they play on, or the discriminatory
>membeship rules, or the breaking ranks idiocy, it's the life-experience
>and performance experience the corps provides to it's members over a
>long period of time.
Mike, you're so out of touch, LOL, I'm laughing at you Mike, HA HA HA. Do you
realize how ignorant you sound?>
>Failing a voluntary move, maybe DCI could set up a requirement that NO
>corps may engage in membership discrimination of any type and still
>compete in a DCI-sanctioned show. That way, it's up to the corps to
>either change or go someplace else.The day that happens is the day I move to Canada. Start a petition Mike. STOP
THE GREAT SOCIAL INJUSTICE, LOOSE THE BONDS OF SLAVERY. MIKE, THIS HAS GONE ON
TOO LONG. THIS TYPE OF GENDER DISCRIMINATION HAS GONE ON TOO LONG.
Ha ha ha, Mike, please get a clue. Your thinking has fucked up our country
long enough.John
DCB
postings:
To imply discrimination from the (two remaining) all
male corps is completely ridiculous and their decision to
remain all male needs to be respected.
Each and every corps devotes countless billions of
hours developing their show design, image and reputation.
The fact that the Scouts and Cavaliers are all male
has always made them unique in the drum corps world,
especially when keeping up with the evolution of the
activity.
I can't imagine the can of worms that would be opened
if one of these (two)corps were to announce they were
opening their ranks to men and women and I hope that never
happens.
Santa Clara, for a couple years in the late 80's
incorporated men into their guard, because of their show
design for those years (awesome). However in '90, Seeing
a man dressed in the 'Carmen' role, flirting and swinging
his ass seductively with the horn players would NOT have
been the same (you can stop visualizing now, pervert).
Phantom surely would've had to pass on letting men
audition in '91, when their guard wore those really short
tu-tu things and did the splits!! Oh Baby!! Like I really
want to see some 'Melvin' doing that!!!
Give the corps the respect they deserve and enjoy the
show.
That's just my $.02
Thanks,
Don
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Ryan
> Ryan, how is our legal tender unconsitutional? I'm not being a
> smartass (at
> least not now), i'm genuinely interested...
>
> John Adcock
> Waiting to be educated
IN GOD WE TRUST
Ryan
> I have never marched in a drum corps because I play clarinet. Maybe I
> should
> complain that there aren't any drum and bugle and clarinet corps?
Ya know, I think that is the most insightful contribution to this thread
yet (except for the question mark).
However, it might not be too long before that happens anyway.
sai...@one.net
Michael "How many cases of Little Kings should I bring to Madison?" Kolle
RDeschene
>>Am I missing any??
>
>You're DAMN tootin' you missed some...
>
>1. The day VK was ALLOWED to fold...and thus take with it a certain flair and
>attractiveness to the activity...(OK OK OK!!! Also Sky, Freelancers,
>Marauders, Star, and the countless others that DCI seemingly DOESN'T
>acknowledge...or have the power to help out...or whatever!)
>
<snip>
And Bridgemen, and Guardsmen, and North Star, and Oakland, and Seneca,
and . . . on and on and on. Folks can add any number of dearly
departed, and sadly missed, corps to the list.
Sue
RDeschene
>And Bridgemen, and Guardsmen, and North Star, and Oakland, and Seneca,
>and . . . on and on and on. Folks can add any number of dearly
>departed, and sadly missed, corps to the list.
>
And 27th Lancers. There are countless more, but thinking back to the
last year I marched, 1980, I couldn't leave out Two-Seven.
Sue
Jolson6060
>I certainly agree with you on this one, but I would like to see it be a
>voluntary move by the corps administrations to open up their membership
>to the other HALF of the population currently excluded.
RDeschene
I can't recall a year in which Cavies admitted women. I had several
friends who marched Cavies in the late '70s, and that was right about
the time the Kilts first admitted women to the corps. My friends were
pretty adamant that neither Cavies nor Madison would do that. I think
their words were along the lines that the corps would fold first,
rather than go co-ed.
Then again, there was Madison in '71, mentioned by BDSCV in the
related "Sad and Wrong Tradition," in which they performed "Alice in
Wonderland," and, as my Cavalier friends told me, the corps director's
daughter played Alice in that show. But as far as I know, that's the
one and only time either corps has ever had a female member.
Sue
TessAyashe
"Thank You" for all I have enjoyed learning on this subject. I need time to
digest all this info and hate mail I have received to my personal E-mail
address. But, right now I need to put my attention on my Daughter, who is on
tour and very sick with pneumonia and raising enough money so I can get to see
my 4 children perform this season. I do feel strongly about what I shared
with everyone. You can believe this or not.........I did not write this
because I need a spotlight or attention. I LOVE Drum Corps, it has truly been
a huge part of my life, and I have always worked hard to be the best I can be
as a performer and a Human Being. I never expected everyone to agree with my
feelings or my opinion. I knew that wouldn't be the case. I have very little
to gain from this situation at this time in my life. But it is something I
feel strongly about for many, many reasons. I will reply after I live
through this weekend.
Carol Ann Fallon
JNFRKTL
times that there are many corps that do allow women to join. Why single out
two all male corps when there are so many others that females can march in?
Maybe the guys should complain that there are not more all male corps. (By the
way I am female).
JNFRKTL
time I tried to post it.
I am female. I don't see anything wrong with an all male corps. I think it is
a good thing. I have never marched in a corps because I play clarinet (and you
don't see me complaining about not being able to march in a drum and bugle and
clarinet corps). However, if I did march in a corps I would rather it be all
female simply because it would be easier to concentrate on learning the drill,
music, etc. without being distracted by the opposite sex. I know that in co-ed
corps there are many couples, but I also know that if the relationship goes
sour in the middle of the tour it can cause tension within the corps that would
not have in a problem in a one sex corps.
bake...@my-deja.com
duh...@NOSPAMconcentric.net wrote:
> EvilTuba wrote:
>
> > Ryan, how is our legal tender unconsitutional? I'm not being a
> > smartass (at
> > least not now), i'm genuinely interested...
> >
> > John Adcock
> > Waiting to be educated
>
> IN GOD WE TRUST
>
> --
> Ryan M. Powell
Don't forget:
Article I, section 8, clause 5: "The Congress shall have power . . . To
COIN Money . . . ." (emphasis added); and,
Article I, section 10: "No state shall . . . make any Thing but gold and
silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts . . . ."
Dan Baker
Libertarian
> mailto:duh...@concentric.net
> (Remove "NOSPAM" from address to reply; that is, unless you are
clicking
> on that link over there.)
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Frank Schoenbach
as director
On or about 30 Jul 1999 22:38:13 GMT, the lovely and talented
EuphScott
hitting the send button.
Not all things should be for all people. In the politically correct times we
live in I realize that statement is unpoular. However, some traditions should
be held. Some links to the past are worth keeping.
Ms. Fallon, I am afraid you may be misguided in your opinion on this one.
Scott
mobrien000
----------
In article <19990730233507...@ng-cb1.aol.com>,
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote about the difficulties involved in her
family life, sickness, etc, and then said:
> I have very little
> to gain from this situation at this time in my life
Well, if you have little to gain (in fact, nothing to gain) from taking
unreasoned and unpopular positions, then it might be a good idea to get
yourself in the habit of PASSING UP the chance to take them. Isn't life
stressful enough without begging for others to chastise you?
In fact this thread had nothing to do with righteousness (so don't try
bringing the 'gender civil rights and equality' issue to the table, since
private organizations are free from having to toe those lines), and
everything to do with trying to get attention for yourself. Congrats. It
worked.
Matt
Frank Schoenbach
"mobrien000" <mobri...@ameritech.net> wrote:
Remeber folks, Carol Ann Fallon has three names----Chermydrms,
Tessayashe and Movingdoe2
She also claims to be the first ever female soloist in a Sr corps--can
she prove that?
She marched with an all-girl corps but did nothing to bring males into
the corps despite her claiming that she's been offended by single
gender corps and trying to do something about it since she was 5
Yes it did Matt. She picked the wrong topic to be a championette for.
I bet she's just foaming at the mouth wanting to move from MA to NY so
she can vote for Hillary.
Ron Allard
Carol,
All differences aside, we all have your daughter in our thoughts and wish her a
speedy recovery...
And sending hate email sucks, people...
--
Ron in Vegas© 1999
mailto:ron.a...@att.net
Senior Drum Corps Tribute© site:
http://home.att.net/~Diceman
Senior Corps Pic© Site:
http://home.att.net/~diceman16
Corpsreps.com - The Drum Corps Repertoire Database
http://www.corpsreps.com
Drum Corps Nut 100
When they took the phrase out of Drum Corps, Lets give the Crowd the
Entertainment they paid for and Win this Crowd over. Now it says, Win these
Judges over!
Scouts - Thank You for keeping us in the Crowd in mine when you take the
field-screw the Judges!
Ryan H. Turner wrote in message
<19990730190158...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
>>Am I missing any??
>
>You're DAMN tootin' you missed some...
>
>1. The day VK was ALLOWED to fold...and thus take with it a certain flair
and
>attractiveness to the activity...(OK OK OK!!! Also Sky, Freelancers,
>Marauders, Star, and the countless others that DCI seemingly DOESN'T
>acknowledge...or have the power to help out...or whatever!)
>
guardguy
BD would be a privilage...NO OFFENSE...JUST MY OPINION
Reel Feel wrote:
> I have loads to say on this topic, but I have to leave for Murfreesboro
> right now, so I'll limit it to this:
> Marching Cavies and Madison (and any other corps, for that matter) is a
> PRIVILEGE, so don't treat it like it is a RIGHT. It's not Cavies and Madison's
> *responsiblity* to allow a woman to march. It is their choice.
> So long as the Constitution means anything, it will always be this way.
> Sorry.
>
> Matt
Jolson6060
>a privilage to march cavies and madison? how so?? I would think marching
>cadets or
>BD would be a privilage...NO OFFENSE...JUST MY OPINION
>
Out of the four, I don't you'd make any of them. NO OFFENSE....JUST MY OPINION
By the way, the Cavies have won more titles than BD. I'm going to check, but
I believe Cavies are a few up on Cadets. There's alot more to DC than DCI
John
Nikk Pilato
privilage to march cavies and madison? how so?? I would think marching
cadets or > BD would be a privilage...NO OFFENSE...JUST MY OPINION
Why? Because they have won more titles? If that's what matters
to you, then it is a privilage to you. To those that aspire to be
part of a coprs regardless of titles or top 3 finishes, it *is* a
privilage.
You can win 4 rings 4 years in a row, and may still not get
as much out of the experience as some kid marching in the 12th place
corps.
Priorities. It's all about priorities.
++
np
http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~pilato_n
"People are upset not by things, but by their ideas of things."
-Epictetus
Greg Wanzek
Frank Schoenbach
It is a PRIVELAGE to march ANY corps. NO ONE has a RIGHT to march
anywhere.
On or about Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:27:38 -0400, the lovely and talented
guardguy <emtb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>a privilage to march cavies and madison? how so?? I would think marching cadets or
>BD would be a privilage...NO OFFENSE...JUST MY OPINION
>
ChiBoyinLA
OK...you're wrong. ;-)
Cavaliers have never had a female marcher.
Rob W.
Cavaliers 85-87
EvilTuba
>Article I, section 8, clause 5: "The Congress shall have power . . . To
>COIN Money . . . ." (emphasis added); and,
>Article I, section 10: "No state shall . . . make any Thing but gold and
>silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts . . . ."
>
>Dan Baker
Ok, valid argument. But....the word "coin" in this instance might or might nt
have meant "coin as in hard metal currency". It can also be interpreited to
mean "coin" as in the verb to make something (in this case money). Out "paper"
money is still based on a gold standard, as per the article of the constitution
you quoted.
John
Jason
> history back to Boy Scout Units.
The "Tradition" view of this issue is only part of the whole story. It
seems to me that there are Logistical-factors that a single-sex corps is
better-prepared to deal with than a uni-sex one...
Sleeping arrangements, chaperones, bathrooms/showers, uniform changes,
etc.
Having never marched, I have to admit that I can't confirm that this is a
major factor in day-to-day activities -- but it seems logical. Thus,
changing the corps' format would involve a major modification to the
structure and organization of the corps itself.
I think that Charles' point (quoted above) is a very solid and valid
argument. That should be all that is necessary, but I also think that there
are other points to consider...
Daniel O'Neal
I bet the guard unis would have been different in '94 and '95
Jasser1900 wrote:
>
> As a former Cavie I think one thing is being overlooked. Can you imagine their
> unique approach being performed by a female.
guardguy
Jolson6060 wrote:
> >
> >a privilage to march cavies and madison? how so?? I would think marching
> >cadets or
> >BD would be a privilage...NO OFFENSE...JUST MY OPINION
> >
>
Marianne Evans
a little boy for annie on broadway anytime soon. the fact is for any kind
of performing art there can be a need for a male or a female for a certain
role. why aren't you mad that there are all-female guards? or that
bandettes have only girls? the truth is if there is a need for an all
male group or all female group it isn't considered discrimination. i
challenge you to go to new york and try and get casted as tommy. i bet
you they will laugh as you come in the door. there are 2 all male corps
remaining and 1 all female and until 1994 there were 2 all female. as a
female i enjoy the scouts and cavies for who they are and if i were a male
i would definitely consider auditioning but the fact is i'm not and i will
enjoy them as a fan.
not bashing you...just explaining.
marianne
==============================================================================
Marianne Evans
email:
evan...@river.it.gvsu.edu
bassc...@hotmail.com
bassc...@yahoo.com
mariann...@yahoo.com
website: http://www2.gvsu.edu/~evansmar *New* lots of updates!!!!
==============================================================================
Drum Corps Nut 100
Drum Corps for the most part were mostly all male with some horns and drums
strictly male and color guard strictly female.
Drum Corps was run somewhat like high school was. You had a football team,
but cheerleaders were all female , while team was all male. The high school
Band was mixed, but it was unheard of of males being in the guard.
I think it would be wrong to change Cavies and Scouts now as this is the way
it has been, and also if a male wants to have that choice to join a mix or
single sex Corps that is good.
I would like to see an all females Corps to be fair and the females would
have the same option.
So quit whining and you girls start an All Girl Corps.
Jason wrote in message ...
Don Davis
EvilTuba wrote in message <19990731145520...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
Ron Allard
>The gold standard was abandoned in 1973.
The silver standard was abandoned around then, too, when everything went to the
Reserve Note...
(Still have a $1 Silver Certificate...)
Movingdoe2
desire, but you have no right to apologize for me.... I will never apologize
for something I believe in...... and if you took the time to think about what
I wrote before running at the mouth..... well, reading your ignorant posting
probably nothing else could fit in your mind.
Sincerely, Carol Ann Fallon
S Muncy100
>so
>desire
Actually when you inferred that Madison and Cavies are without tradition I
think you were being quite rude. I think that line is actually what pissed off
most people here.
Paul Muncy
Danny Sullivan
GOP Pres wrote in message <19990730190710...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
--snip--
Hell, why should
>women be the only ones who can have babies. I think we should ban them from
>doing that from now on.
>NiCk
Personally, I don't think I would want to be the first man to break THIS
particular gender barrior.
heheh
Danny Sullivan
Mike Davis
>I hate to be rude, but are you friggen stupid?
Well, Mr. Presidwent, I guess I must be, if I choose to hold a view
different than yours. I'll have to check with you next time before I
decide to have an opinion on anything.
> Has everyone lost their mind? I
Uh, no, just me, I think.
>can't even believe that I have read all this garbage. I feveryone has such a
>god damn problem with it, start your own damn corps, or go to the damn Colts,
>or Phantom for crying out loud. They are a *PRIVATE* organization. Yes, repeat
>after me, *P-R-I-V-A-T-E* there you go. And in that sense, they can do pretty
>much whatever you want.
As you obviously didn't read what I wrote, I said that yes indeed they
do have thr right to operate as they wish; I just wish that they would
VOLUNTARILY change and let in the 1/2 of the population currently
excluded.
>Take your affirmative action bulls*&t and move along,
>cause I have, and assume many others, have had enough.
>Apologetically (for me and you)
>NiCk
Well, Mr President, if I do it would be MY choice, not yours.
Mike
Mike Davis
><<
>Tradition isn't the horns/drums they play on, or the discriminatory
>membership rules, or the breaking ranks idiocy, it's the life-experience
>and performance experience the corps provides to it's members over a
>long period of time.
>>>
>
>
>Don't you think that marching in an all-male "Fraternity" such as Madison
>Scouts or Cavaliers is a life experience?
Available to 1/2 the population.
>ALL corps have their own traditions, and who are we to question any of them.
>As a private organization they have every right to allow ANY ONE THEY WANT to
>join their ranks.
I don't think they should be FORCED to change, as yes, they do have
that right as a private organization. I wish they would voluntarily
change, as IMO it's a poor excuse for a tradition. Just MHO.
>
>"i'm pissed because SCV has a tradition of playing "Send in the Clowns" when
>they win. i don't like that song, it discriminates against all composers who
>didn't write it, and i think that they should have to change their song."
>
Yes, you should be free to feel that way,and yes, they DO have the
right to pick whatever song they want.
>doug
>
>ps: YES that was sarcasm
I know.
Mike
Mike Davis
>
>Typical liberal, left-wing clone. Thinking with his emotions rather than logic
>and reasoning.
>
Interesting, as I've never voted for a Democrat for state-wide or
national office in my life, since I started voting in '72.
>
>Legality is far more important than morality, just ask that aborted fetus.
How do you drag THAT argument in here?
>Just ask your Clinton administration, they made up their own legal code.
Certainly not 'my' Clinton admin, as I would NEVER vote for him, even
for dog-catcher.
> Not
>to say a fraternal order deriving from a boy scout troop excluding chicks from
>their ranks is immoral.
>
Ah, this says it all. A person who would refer to women and young
girls as 'chicks' says enough for me.
>
>Ya' forgot Holy Name. HN, which came form a local parish. A LOCAL PARISH, so
>of course you're going to have broads sooner or later
>
Oh, so now they're 'btoads'? What come next? Wenches?
>
>Mike, you're so out of touch, LOL, I'm laughing at you Mike, HA HA HA. Do you
>realize how ignorant you sound?
>
Well, if I sound ignorant to you. I must be doing OK.
>
>The day that happens is the day I move to Canada.
Need help packing?
Mike