WGI
Arbatru
Hello all...as one who was in the Ole Guard...sixties here and being away from
Corps and of course Guard for many years.....I have stated lately that I was
not too happy with the way Guard had changed....well....guess it is time to eat
my words. I attended, as a volunteer, the Midwest Sectional for WGI that was
held this past weekend in Normal, IL. I lucked out and was stationed in the
warm up room both days and was quite suprised. How so you may ask....well, I
saw the ladies and gents have the same ole spirit we had back then. I saw and
heard the members giving good wishes to other guards....I saw and heard the
same moans when dropping a rifle, sabre, and or flag during said warm ups. I
observed the laughter, the tears when they completed their performance. I also
managed to see alot of the performances.....yes, they dance now instead of
march...they have lighter equipment to toss.......the times change but not the
spirit. :) As for the performances...wach and every guard deserves a standing
ovation. I was amazed at what these young adults do and the stamina they have
in which to do it....I applaud each and every guard member I met this past
weeknd. To say there was one performance I like better than another would be
a deiservice to all guards that were in attendence....I thouroughly enjoyed all
and also learned alot. I learned that it takes far more team work to have a
performnace go off than it did back in the sixties. I will close this up with
saying: I am hooked on WGI and I hope to be able to attend more performances.
To all I met this weekend: I miss you all already!!!!! Mega HUGS!!!!!!
James Dittrich
I'm happy that *someone* had a pleasant experience. I, on the other hand,
was having the worst time ever in 30 years. It's a good thing you weren't
anywhere near the Percussion venue because it was the most godawful
mess. And the WGI people........could they get any more obnoxious? And
who were those judges? I could go on and on..........
-Terri
rmu...@umn.edu
Dear Arbatru,
Could you please post some scores - guard and drumline - from the Normal show?
Thank you very much,
Reed Munson
South St. Paul MN
Arbatru
>I'm happy that *someone* had a pleasant experience. I, on the other hand,
>was having the worst time ever in 30 years. It's a good thing you weren't
>anywhere near the Percussion venue because it was the most godawful
>mess. And the WGI people........could they get any more obnoxious? And
>who were those judges? I could go on and on..........
>
>-Terri
>
>
>
>
I am sorry that your experience was such a low one. I do hope your filled out
the critque sheet, if not, ten nobody in WGI will know of your disatisfcation.
I did not attend the persussion portion of the competition...sorry, but was far
too lazy to walk to the other school, so I can't comment on what might or might
not have been going on, but I would like to say to hang in there. A good
experience is bound to happen at your very next cometition...:)
Arbatru
Sure and hopefully I wrote the scores down correctly!
Will do only the first three places as I am limited on time....hate it when
work interfers with Corps!
Saturday:
Scholastic A:
Third Place: Ferndale 79.9
Second: Rettering 80.1
First: Carrol 83.3
Independent A:
Third: Stepetettes 75.2
Second: Interplay 79.6
First: Tapestry 81.9
Sunday:
Scholastic Open:
Third: Chesterton 76.6
Second: Irondale 79.3
First: Kings 80.4
Independent Open:
Third: Onyx 79.1
Second: Buccaneers 80.8
First: Patriots 86.1
Scholastic World:
Third: Northview 82.9
Second: Center Grove 84.9
First: Miamiburgs 86.3
Independent World:
Second: Adagio 79.4
First: Pride of Cin. 91/5
The last class had only two guards competing. The Sr class had two guards also
competing but I have no scores for them.
Hugs
Arbatru
>
>Dear Arbatru,
>Could you please post some scores - guard and drumline - from the Normal
>show?
>
>Thank you very much,
>Reed Munson
>South St. Paul MN
Re...if you or anybody else would like the other scores....please feel free to
e-mail me at: Arb...@aol.com.
Now time to put my thoughts on work....arg!!!!!
Have a super weekend all!!!!!!
<gr>
James Dittrich
Uh, three years of entering that competition are enough for me.......I'm not
up to another experience like that! I would have filled out the critique sheet
but I left the tapes and sheets on the bleachers in disgust. I'll just go to
Glenbrook and let the kids work on their solos and ensembles for the rest of
the school year.
-Terri
NOTINSTEP
Boy, did you hit it on the head. WGI has become the haven for artistic child
molesters.....a place where face paint, bad ballet, and silly props take the
place of real youth competition....a place where immature adults want the
adulation of real designers because they dont have the talent to create
anything to sell in the business world. So they sell it to kids; the only ones
they can convince they have any talent. These WGI people are sick. Their
shows are sick and if anyone thinks it is by accident, you better check out the
"training school" of WGI with respect to percussion. Its about 35 hours of
"training" where you learn how to:
oil paint
apply face make-up
wear a tutu
learn interp dance steps
construct props out of double ply foam core board
construct props out of wood products
As for percussion....well there IS no percussuion. As Cosmo Barbaro of the DCI
indoor task force said to me on a chance meeting at Pleasure Island at Disney a
few years ago...."Geez, we could have used you there at the indoor meetings."
It seems the WGI design meisters - idiots first class with no art or design
credentials - were trying to teach the percussion caption how to judge
"design". LOL LOL LOL LOL
To WGI, the kids are nothing but a quick buck. The percussion people are
stupid for letting WGI rake them over the coals like this....where well playing
lines are being dumped in favor of the "self esteem for non-achievement" WGI
bullshit.
NOT IN STEP
rmu...@umn.edu
NOT IN STEP:
Thank you for precisely pounding the nail on the head with a sledge hammer.
I agree with your opinion that wgi drumline is way too much about drama
and no where near enough about drumming.
Indoor drumline is a neat activity, but I would like to hear some wgi
proponents support why wgi indoor drumline places so much emphasis on
visual and places so little emphasis on actual music and musical playing.
We already have winter guard. We do not need winter guards renamed
drumlines banging on trash cans. Indoor drumline should not be the same as
a color guard show. Indoor drumline should showcase battery and frontline
percussion. Music, notes and chops should be the priority. Props,
costumes, interpretive dances should not be the primary focus of indoor
drumline.
Do percussion students benefit from taking the musicallity and traditional
rudimental standards of excellence away from battery and frontline
percussion and replacing it with simplistic banging?
Indoor drumline should be an opportunity to feature battery and frontline
percussion. Where drum corps has diminished the amounts of traditional
rudimental drumming, indoor drumline should keep the tradition of
challenging rudimental drumming and adapt it to blend well musically with
frontline percussion.
Music and drumming is the most important thing with indoor drumline. The
visual show should just be icing on the cake.
Reed Munson
South St. Paul Minnesota
WHERE MUSIC AND DRUMMING WILL ALWAYS
BE THE FIRST PRIORITY
James Dittrich
Trash cans! If only it were just trash cans. At least you can use them as an
instrument. I saw enough props and backdrops for full blown broadway
productions. If I started today for next winter, quit working and spent all my
time on back drops and props for next winter, I'd still be behind.
-Terri
Kathy Gallmon
I don't agree with you on even a particle of one point. What do you
have to offer the thousands of kids that participate in WGI? You are
so harshly critical--why?
I love WGI from Cadet class guards to World Percussion! I can't even
imagine the person that couldn't appreciate and applaud the participants
and their staff and organizations.
You really are "out of step" on this one.
Kathy Gallmon
ShugaSam
>I don't agree with you on even a particle of one point. What do you
>have to offer the thousands of kids that participate in WGI? You are
>so harshly critical--why?
I wonder the same thing.. I myself march in an indoor marching percussion
ensemble for WGI and I really don't see all the corruption proclaimed here.
For the most part WGI has been one of the better circuits and competiting in it
is actually one of the highlights of our season. Most of the critiques we
recieve at shows are hokey except for the WGI ones... while everything might
not be straight forward drumming that's a line's decision not WGI. As for my
line.. all we have are some plain black flats and we won our regional.. vs. the
many sword fighting, dancing, etc.... other lines.
Just an opinion.
Sam
Michael Cahill
Kathy Gallmon wrote:
> I don't agree with you on even a particle of one point. What do you
> have to offer the thousands of kids that participate in WGI? You are
> so harshly critical--why?
He is harsh, no doubt. But he can offer kids the ability to exceed in a single
discipline - rudimental drumming, vs. trying to master too many disciplines
with what I've seen of WGI's indoor lines.
Makeup
Dance
Prop/set construction
Acting
Marching
Drumming
How can anyone but the top one or two afford the staff required to teach all
those disciplines in an effective or even decent way and afford decent
costumes and props? Answer - they can't. Even if they could where would they
get the time and talent to do them all justice? In short what are the kids
really learning about all these elements?
I could understand if this was an extension of HS plays or musicals (minus the
drums) and was more of a "Theater" competition. But even high school plays
and musicals are based on quality works from the theater, not locally produced
works. The use of indoor drumlines to convey theme shows in this manner makes
little sense to me. There was an excellent paper explaining the reasons why
drum corps is not a good forum for representational shows. I'll repost some of
it if you like.
Take Stomp as a Broadway example - professionally designed and choreographed,
backed with huge amounts of money, yet it is more about the rudimental and
ensemble aspects of drumming than most of the lines I've seen. It knows it's
purpose, not trying to be all things to all people. IMO most WGI indoor staffs
are taking the theater aspect way too far.
How can percussion judges be expected to critique dance or acting or set
construction with no practical experience? - same answer as above. So what
are the kids really being offered by competition?
> I love WGI from Cadet class guards to World Percussion! I can't even
> imagine the person that couldn't appreciate and applaud the participants
> and their staff and organizations.
I'll applaud the kids for their effort, but I can't applaud most of the design
work I've seen. A marching drumline is not the best vehicle to transport the
laundry list of elements above IMO.
> You really are "out of step" on this one.
> Kathy Gallmon
--
Michael Cahill
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless,
and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful" Samuel Johnson.
drum...@juno.com
Oh well, that's one of the reasons I quit indoor line to begin with.
---
Jason Lowe
"Quote Space For Rent."
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XP300
>I agree with your opinion that wgi drumline is way too much about drama
>and no where near enough about drumming.
Watch Black Knights show. We got plenty of drumming and plenty of drama and
props.
> Music, notes and chops should be the priority. Props,
>costumes, interpretive dances should not be the primary focus of indoor
>drumline.
Music, notes and chops are the priority in our show. The costumes, props, and
drama support the music, notes and chops. Our music is written by Jeff Lee and
David Glyde and is extremely hard.
>Do percussion students benefit from taking the musicallity and traditional
>rudimental standards of excellence away from battery and frontline
>percussion and replacing it with simplistic banging?
Simplistic banging? Now excuse what I'm gonna say but you the fuck are you
coming out and saying that? Did you see Music City Mysic, Blue Knights and all
the other Independent World drumlines last year? I doubt it.
>Indoor drumline should be an opportunity to feature battery and frontline
>percussion. Where drum corps has diminished the amounts of traditional
>rudimental drumming, indoor drumline should keep the tradition of
>challenging rudimental drumming and adapt it to blend well musically with
>frontline percussion.
Watch Black Knights show is year in dayton. You tell me if we don't have
challenging rudimental drumming or now.
Write Back
Roger
James Dittrich
Michael Cahill wrote:
>
> Kathy Gallmon wrote:
>
> > I don't agree with you on even a particle of one point. What do you
> > have to offer the thousands of kids that participate in WGI? You are
> > so harshly critical--why?
>
> He is harsh, no doubt. But he can offer kids the ability to exceed in a single
> discipline - rudimental drumming, vs. trying to master too many disciplines
> with what I've seen of WGI's indoor lines.
>
>
************
Your post is right on the money, except for one thing I would change(keep
scrolling, it's down there somewhere;):
> Makeup
> Dance
> Prop/set construction
> Acting
> Marching
> Drumming
If you're persistent, you'll find it.
-Terri
James Dittrich
I applaude this, but it is the *exception*, not the rule.
-Terri
Rick Brown
I wish to respond to a few things posted. Let me first say that I am a WGI
judge, and was on the championship panel in 95-96-97. My feeling is that
the judge community recognizes quality percussion achievement when it is
displayed. If that quality achievement is displayed, and is accompanied by
a visual environment that elevates the experience, we reward it. We also
have been given the parameters to respond in our own personal manner. Some
of us feel strongly about certain styles, but we all reward quality
achievement in performance...whether we are stationed on Effect or
Analysis.
A few years ago, the champion progam in the Independent class was derided
because they didn't have much of a developed visual program. They drummed
their brains out, were very well programmed and won. Another group had a
wonderful visual show, and drummed very well. The more "traditional" group
(if that is appropriate) won. The following year, the rules were changed by
the participants to reflect that more emphasis should be put on, and credit
given to the visual designs and coordination. The important thing to
recognize here is that the participants changed this. Not the
administration, not the judges. Those who design and perform affected this
change. Since then, while the system is still being tinkered with (it is
still a work in progress) we are recognizing that there can be more to the
program than just the audio clarity.
Lets also remember there is much more to percussion performance than just
"clean drumming". Its not just tenor solos and snare solos and basses
ripping up and down the drums. There is melodic contribution and deep
construction occuring in both harmonic counterpoint and rhythmic
counterpoint. And, we get to see performers heightening the performance
with additional demands...simultaneous responsibility displays is a very
important part of the judges' achievement recognition.
I suspect that if you don't like where things are going, or if you were
involved in a program but don't like where its going...well, you probably
thought you should have won and not someone else. Sorry, we are not all
winners, in spite of what BOA tells us, and its too bad you can't be mature
enough to celebrate in someone else's achievement or victory.
Show me a more interesting activity, on an economic scale where schools can
really compete. Don't say drum corps. Its not that interesting anymore, and
its not very economical.
Wanna win? Get clean and make a good show. You need both, not just one.
Rick Brown
Gareth Skipp
XP300 wrote:
>
>
>
> Watch Black Knights show is year in dayton. You tell me if we don't have
> challenging rudimental drumming or now.
>
> Write Back
>
> Roger
drumlines - we have not forgotten the drumming. Spirit Performing Youth
Ensemble has plenty of drumming too. We are playing the The Witch by
Patrick Williams and it is very theatrical but there is also a
challenging percussion book there. Just watch us in Dayton!!
Gareth Skipp
Spirit Performing Youth Ensemble
dril...@pathcom.com
Scott Leslie Davies
Hey don't lump them all together. I saw Kingsmen at Las Vegas
last weekend. they rammed noted and were VERY clean and looked
like they were having a blast the whole time. It was definitely
my favortie show of the weekend. and they didn't dance around or
anything like that!
Scott
Timothy Mena
>
> Indoor drumline is a neat activity, but I would like to hear some wgi
> proponents support why wgi indoor drumline places so much emphasis on
> visual and places so little emphasis on actual music and musical playing.
>
Because the board of directors voted that way.
James Dittrich
True enough! I saw Capital Regiment at WGI Midwest and they PLAYED!
It's the high school lines...........
-Jim
Sultanwrd
>It's the high school lines...........
>
>
are you talking about how the high school lines are now more focused on having
a "theatrical" show as opposed to a show based more on the musical and drumming
aspects? I'm in a high school line that is going to WGI Nationals for the 3rd
year, competing in PSW, and the first year we went, we got slammed in the
visual department because our show was designed arround the playing, not the
acting. Last year, we had a better visual package, and we just missed the top
5. This year, we've got (imho) the hardest show we've has in the 4 years i've
been playing both musically and visually. It was a shock for us to go from a
circut that emphasised playing and used the tick system to a circut that
emphasised visual parts of the show.
jack
>It's the high school lines...........
>
>-Jim
It's the high school lines? maybe you should check out a few more HS
lines
James Dittrich
jack wrote:
>
> It's the high school lines? maybe you should check out a few more HS
> lines
************
As I mentioned to you through e-mail, I've seen a few high school lines.....
-Terri
Cochese472
When I was at the regional in Boston two weeks ago I saw some high school lines
that played some notes. One did a les mis. show and the other did some indian
show. I can't remeber what there names were but they had some neat drumming
ideas and were pretty tight. The only thing was that only had about three
snares two tenors and 4 basses the other thing was that they did have ALOT
of props which were distracting to the actual book. Sometimes I think theese
type of groups are over looked because they use too many props and no one
actually listens to the music (Which is actually quite good) They also had
some fast drill , but was not marched in control. at some points in the show I
was woried for their safety. (that and they looked like they were running not
marching.) The actual drumming was cool.
Antunes
The Les Mis show is King Philip Regional High School.
The Native American show is Westport High School.
I agree, both are very good.
Lynne
Dartmouth High band parent
Reed Munson
The WGI web site is so pathetically unorganized, could someone post
where most wgi drumlines are located? What parts of the country have the
most wgi drumlines?
Reed
Download my flyfishing calendar on the web
http://www.cla.umn.edu/rmunson
Sultanwrd
>The WGI web site is so pathetically unorganized, could someone post
>where most wgi drumlines are located? What parts of the country have the
>most wgi drumlines?
it is very hard to find the info on the wgi percussion division... As for where
are the lines located? Well, a few from Colorado, a few from Massachusetts, a
few from California, some from the mid west... all over the country. if you
want info on some of the high school lines go to:
http://home.fea.net/~jimwundr
drum...@juno.com
>>It's the high school lines...........
Although alot of them do the theatrical stuff, I saw alot of
"independent" lines dancing like some fairies, too.
---
Jason Lowe
Mail to: DrumGuy 3 at Juno.com
http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/musicnet/index.htm
Michael Cahill
Rick Brown wrote:
> The following year, the rules were changed by
> the participants to reflect that more emphasis should be put on, and credit
> given to the visual designs and coordination. The important thing to
> recognize here is that the participants changed this. Not the
> administration, not the judges.
The participants being the staffs of the various lines, not the kids. Its the
same problem going on with DCI sheets. Too many points awarded for design vs.
performance. The designers are competing way more than the kids.
-snip-
> Lets also remember there is much more to percussion performance than just
> "clean drumming". Its not just tenor solos and snare solos and basses
> ripping up and down the drums. There is melodic contribution and deep
> construction occuring in both harmonic counterpoint and rhythmic
> counterpoint.
Right, but from what I've seen this year, the writing is being overlooked for
the design. A comment from a staff member (who's group won their division) at
the Nashville regional summed it up quite well -
"In our rush to educate the kids in all the theatrical aspects, we're
forgetting to teach them how to drum."
> And, we get to see performers heightening the performance
> with additional demands...simultaneous responsibility displays is a very
> important part of the judges' achievement recognition.
Isn't marching and playing a "simultaneous responsibility" worthy of
"achievement recognition"?
> I suspect that if you don't like where things are going, or if you were
> involved in a program but don't like where its going...well, you probably
> thought you should have won and not someone else. Sorry, we are not all
> winners, in spite of what BOA tells us, and its too bad you can't be mature
> enough to celebrate in someone else's achievement or victory.
No, I personally have no vested interest in any competitive group, and neither
does NIS. The points here are not the sour grapes you suggest they are. Many
are valid complaints that you can't be masters of the many trades the new
sheets call for. It would make a great deal more sense to just add colorguards
to drumlines as they were. And change the instrumentation to suit the massive
reverb found in basketball arenas.
> Show me a more interesting activity, on an economic scale where schools can
> really compete.
Football, soccer, baseball, track and field, wind ensemble, drum corps (before
the Visual Revolution™ that gave design the nod over performance, brought some
ridiculous prop work and bad choreography to dc, and is not all that different
from the additions to indoor drumlines in WGI competitions). All more
interesting to me because they are/were doing one thing well as opposed to
many things in mediocrity.
With all the money being spent on tarps, costumes, props etc. the economic
scale of your activity is increasing yearly over the simple indoor lines of
the past. If you really want to create an even playing field for competition,
do away with all the design and let the kids just drum and march. Much less
expensive and far more level a starting point for all lines involved.
> Don't say drum corps. Its not that interesting anymore, and
> its not very economical.
Oops. Too late.
> Wanna win? Get clean and make a good show. You need both, not just one.
Right, but who says a good show needs dancing, makeup, and props? If lines
want to win, they can always lobby to change the sheets to award the
performers as opposed to the design.
> Rick Brown
XP300
>Although alot of them do the theatrical stuff, I saw alot of
>"independent" lines dancing like some fairies, too.
>
>
What "idependent" lines would this be?
Roger
James Dittrich
Maybe at other regionals than the one I attended. The independent lines
were the most prop, makeup, and dance-free lines in the midwest regional.
-Terri
Brian Dinkel
Reed Munson <rmu...@umn.edu> wrote:
>The WGI web site is so pathetically unorganized, could someone post
>where most wgi drumlines are located? What parts of the country have the
>most wgi drumlines?
>Reed
>Download my flyfishing calendar on the web
>http://www.cla.umn.edu/rmunson
I think most of them are from California, of course I could be wrong..
there are some good ones in Colorado too, and a bunch from the
midwestern area
Jordsterr
I was at the WGI regional in Springboro yesterday, and I have to say that I
agree. I left very disapointed after prelims. I will admit that I only saw
about three hours of the show, but most lines are not doing good stuff. Some
notable esceptions I saw were John Overton HS, Cleveland HS, Capital Regiment
and two other independent lines I can'e remember the names of. They did shows
based on voodod and witches. These lines did what I hoped to see. They had
interesting productions with great playing. Captal Regiment didn't have a
storyline, which was cool. It was just straight ahead drumming and awesome
drill. Loved it. The other four had programs and props. I have no problem
with that when the storyline is used as a background for good drumming. I even
like very much the line from West Union that doesn't so much do traditional
line drumming as explore sounds as a percussion ensemble using lots of stuff.
But I also saw a great big bunch of crap. No, it is NOT winterguard. If these
lines spend most of their time doing visual stuff and not drumming, then it is
NOT a drumline. I'm sorry, but running around with boxes and playing about a
minute and a half of drum licks that consist mostly of 5 stroke rolls and
paradiddlediddles is not what I consider drumline. That just plain sucks.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very in favor of WGI and winterguard in
general. At the Miamisburg site, I saw mostly stuff I loved from the guards (I
like dancing). But I was bummed by the percussionists.
BTW, if you can only hear the electronic keyboards and not the vibes and
marimba, why bother having a pit at all? As for one group I saw doing a Rush
show, I have a feeling that most of the music rehearsal was done by three guys
in a garage.
Jordi Vilanova
94-98 Bluegrass Brass
87, 88 Garfield Cadets
86 Star of Indiana
rmu...@umn.edu
Dear Jordi,
Thank you for validating my point - WGI-style drumline places too much
emphasis on guard-like visual stuff and not enough emphasis on drumming.
Show designers: remember - this is supposed to be a musical and
educational activity for the kids involved. It is not intended to be a
stage to display your ego and your perceived creative genius.
If drumline is allowed to turn into some sort of perverted guard activity
it is destined to wither and die because band directors - they people who
have the real say in what their kids are doing - are going to look at
winter drumline, see it as a strange dance act with no musical education
benefits and decide not to have a winter drumline at their school.
Winter drumline has to emphasis music and drumming to be taken seriously
as a valuable musical experience by band directors. If band directors
don't like what they're hearing or seeing from winter drumline why should
they allow their kids to participate in the activity? Emphasis music and
musical playing in winter drumline and most band directors are going to
see the activity as a valuable musical learning experience and are going
to support it.
--
----------
DRUMZLP97
>BTW, if you can only hear the electronic keyboards and not the vibes and
>marimba, why bother having a pit at all?
I agree whole-heartedly with this.
Lisa
Capital Regiment Winter Drumline 97
Bluecoats Pit 97-98
Kathy Gallmon
Jordsterr wrote:
>
> I was at the WGI regional in Springboro yesterday, and I have to say that I
> agree. I left very disapointed after prelims. I will admit that I only saw
> about three hours of the show, but most lines are not doing good stuff. Some
> notable esceptions I saw were John Overton HS, Cleveland HS, Capital Regiment
> and two other independent lines I can'e remember the names of. They did shows
> based on voodod and witches. These lines did what I hoped to see. They had
> interesting productions with great playing. Captal Regiment didn't have a
> storyline, which was cool. It was just straight ahead drumming and awesome
> drill. Loved it. The other four had programs and props. I have no problem
> with that when the storyline is used as a background for good drumming. I even
> like very much the line from West Union that doesn't so much do traditional
> line drumming as explore sounds as a percussion ensemble using lots of stuff.
>
> But I also saw a great big bunch of crap. No, it is NOT winterguard. If these
> lines spend most of their time doing visual stuff and not drumming, then it is
> NOT a drumline. I'm sorry, but running around with boxes and playing about a
> minute and a half of drum licks that consist mostly of 5 stroke rolls and
> paradiddlediddles is not what I consider drumline. That just plain sucks.
>
> Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very in favor of WGI and winterguard in
> general. At the Miamisburg site, I saw mostly stuff I loved from the guards (I
> like dancing). But I was bummed by the percussionists.
>
> show, I have a feeling that most of the music rehearsal was done by three guys
> in a garage.
>
> Jordi Vilanova
> 94-98 Bluegrass Brass
> 87, 88 Garfield Cadets
> 86 Star of Indiana
Three of my favorites were the Patriots in Independent Concert and
Marching Classes, Capitol Regiment in IW and Franklin in Scholastic
Concert Class. It was a good regional with a crowd that really
appreciated percussion.
James Dittrich
I noticed that you saw John Overton. What did you think of the "Viking
show"?
-Terri
Alan
It seemed to me that the majority of the guard shows were professional,
clean, and very well programmed, while the majority of the drumline
shows were basically winterguard shows with some (mostly gray) drumming
in between the theatrics. The props, theatrics, and storyline are
supposed to SUPPLEMENT the show and drumming, not dominate it.
Another thing that bothered me was the number of drumlines that can't
march well. I remember one show where the bass line came running up all
out of step for their solo, which totally ruined their timing and made
their solo unreadable. The rest of the drumline didn't even know where
to come in after that. If they can't march in step, how can they play in
time?
Alan
Jordsterr
>I noticed that you saw John Overton. What did you think of the "Viking
>show"?
LOVED IT!!!
I did enjoy the programmatic aspects of the show. But I especially loved that
the major emphasis was on music. One section I really liked was that the group
used wooden stools to play with their hands a la Stomp. This allowed a nice
and audible pit feature while still having everyone play. And best of all,
the hand stuff DIDN'T just sound like a simple groove riff repeated over and
over. It was interesting and sounded like the kids had to actually count.
RobbSi
>> the majority of the drumline shows were basically winterguard shows with
some (mostly gray) drumming in between the theatrics.<<
The Kingsmen senior WGI line truly is the antithesis to 'modern' WGI lines.
They've revitalized the notion that rudimental drumming displaying exciting
grooves, edge-of-your-seat writing, and spill-your-popcorn execution, like that
of legendary lines of the 70's and 80's.......... IS HIP!!!!.....only better!
You have GOT to see this show. You're missing an absolute treat if you don't
see the 1998 Kingsmen.
I'm not a performer. Only a spectator.
-- Robb Sirat
FMM Crossmen & The Blue Devils
Founding Member: *** "PLEASE DRUM!" ***
Percussionists Longing for Extended Accented Singles Executed
Dynamically and Rudiments Unleashed on Mylar
Public ELF Workstation
hey-
Could you give me a little more info on Overton? I marched there in HS
in '94 and '95 and I can't seem to get a hold of anyone who knows
anything about how they're doing (or *what* they're doing). I'm not
surprised at what you've said already though- Julie and Lalo Davila are
quality teachers and people. but I am kinda suprised that alot of the
shows are turning "guard-like".....
by the way, i think one of the independent lines you metioned was Music
City Mystique. They're doing a Voodoo type show, from what I
understand. Always been a quality line, too.
Kat
~~~~~~~~~~~
Kat Schonheyder
Crossmen Mello '95, '97, '98 and (hopefully) '99
~D A R K H O R S E~
mello...@hotmail.com, kat...@eden.rutgers.edu
Check out my Crossmen Web Page!
<http://www.goecities.com/CollegePark/Campus/7621>
"Perfection is not optional."
-Rule 11:
Creed of the Sociopathic Obssesive Compulsive
"Don't worry about trying to avoid temptaion. As you get older, it
starts avoiding you."
-Unknown
Robert Shane Crocker
: Could you give me a little more info on Overton? I marched there in HS
Vikings, tunes from Hook, Pocahontas (i think)
: by the way, i think one of the independent lines you metioned was Music
: City Mystique. They're doing a Voodoo type show, from what I
: understand. Always been a quality line, too.
Mad Props.
Crocker
MCM 98
http://www.mtsu.edu/~rein01b0
Richard Burrows
> <snip> two other independent lines I can'e remember the names of. They did shows
> > based on voodod and witches. These lines did what I hoped to see.
The other lines are Music City Mystique , which do the voodoo show and the other
line is Spirit Performing Youth Ensemble, which performed "The Witch".
There will definitely be some good competition for independant world at this years
Championships. Between Mystique, Capital Regiment, Blue Knights and Spirit, any one
of those lines could take it...
Richard Burrows
Percussive
rmu...@umn.edu wrote:
>
> Dear Jordi,
> Thank you for validating my point - WGI-style drumline places too much
> emphasis on guard-like visual stuff and not enough emphasis on drumming.
I'd have to concur. And - some unfortunate news... it will only get worse. You see,
many of the high-quality drumlines are now afraid to join the WGI circuit because of the
theatrics. It is difficult for them to stage shows - they've been trained to play drums
- and they don't want to be ranked poorly just because they don't play the WGI game.
But... I don't mind it, overall. So, here is my suggestion. Leave the theatrics to the
theatre people. Only, I don't mean that the way you'd first think. ;)
Do you remember back in high school, when all the art students would get together to
create stages for plays, operettas, etc.? Not just art students, of course; rope
crews, carpenters, etc. In high school, there are kids there to ply their trade. They
volunteer to make pretty little sets of castles and forests and what not.
Tap them. If your school is like ours, your drumline is popular in the school, right?
The student body loves drumline. So, have a backstage crew to assemble your set. They
may be under YOUR express command - I know that some art teacher pulling the strings
could completely ruin your project. These kids can be given Drumline Crew t-shirts, can
come along on the trips - and I promise you, they'd do it. For those who are not in
band, they'd get to experience the excitement of competition. They'd get to travel.
Use your school resources in a way you hadn't thought possible before. Not only will
you have a set for WGI, you'll soon have a core of drumline supporters actively involved
in your production. I'd be curious who has already had success with this.
Then, keep on playing the goodies! We want to hear difficulty and musicality, not
ambiguous nonsense set to some primeval backdrop.
Matt Lineberry
Administrator, Percussion World
http://percussion.simplenet.com
Ryan M. Powell
Percussive wrote:
> rmu...@umn.edu wrote:
> >
> > Dear Jordi,
> > Thank you for validating my point - WGI-style drumline places too
> much
> > emphasis on guard-like visual stuff and not enough emphasis on
> drumming.
>
> I'd have to concur. And - some unfortunate news... it will only get
> worse. You see,
> many of the high-quality drumlines are now afraid to join the WGI
> circuit because of the
> theatrics. It is difficult for them to stage shows - they've been
> trained to play drums
> - and they don't want to be ranked poorly just because they don't play
> the WGI game.
When I first witnessed WGI drum line stuff, I got a different impression
of why so many lines were doing guard-like shows. My impression was
that the drum lines themselves set the "standard" of "we are now
competing within an organization that has always been color guard, so we
need to adapt to a color guard way of doing things."
I have no idea if my perception was accurate because everyone has their
own point of view. However, I have a hard time believing that WGI set
up a judging system that nurtures and reinforces "drum guards." I think
WGI wanted to add something new and different, yet still related to the
color guard activity in that they are both part of the same mother
activity (drum corps & marching band) (duh), to give the competitions a
little more variety and flavor and to appeal to a larger audience
(Anyone understand the concept of economics? Ya think WGI might have
that on their minds sometimes?).
Whether it is the drum lines or WGI who have set the norm for the
drumming competitions, drumming is drumming and color guard is color
guard. One can't be the other and they would not be two separate things
if they had a common goal. The drum lines can change the current shape
of things by not trying to be color guards. How many color guards do
you see within DRUM CORPS International that think they need to be what
is implied in the title of the organization? How about within the
organization BANDS of America? There are none. Color guards do not try
to be DRUM corps or marching BANDS. Maybe color guard people are just
smarter than drummers.
And why don't the bands that compete in WGI's marching band circuit feel
the need to cater to the WGI title? Because it would be ridiculous,
just like the crap that goes on in the gyms during winter.
Robb Sirat was completely accurate about the Kingsmen being in a league
of their own. Even though they are using a style that goes back before
my time, I thought they rocked because they drummiwummed as if they were
one of those drum line type things. I did not even bother going to the
finals of the drum line competition at the Las Vegas regional, even
though I would have gotten in for free, because I was bored by the drum
limes I saw in the prelims. Really bored.
WGI is not going to change the way the drum lines approach their shows.
If the shows are going to change, the lines are going to have to change
them themselves.
Punk-ass Ryan
NOTINSTEP
It is time the perc people rioted against these WGI artistic child molesters.
This past week I saw so much shit in the indoor lines that it is time to dump
WGI. They want the judging money.
NOT IN STEP
NOTINSTEP
After consulting for a totally rudimental indoor line for a weekend that uses
no props and plays their asses off, I must conclude it is time to dump WGI as a
sponsor of any percussion contests. These artistic child molesters are after
judging and design bucks. That's it . Nothing more or less....except maybe
false self esteem and prestige. It was sickening to watch. The critique was
even more interesting. Another WGI nitwit with no art or design credentials
claiming knowledge because he attended a weekend camp somewhere. It was killer.
To think that kids who are in a drum line roll around on the floor for 2
minutes of a 6 1/2 minute show , then play 8th and 16th notes dirty as hell are
learning anything about anything is comical. All the tons of make-up and
stupid costumes made them play no better. Hair spray and mousse just dont do
parradiddles or double flam triplets.These kids have been sacrificed for the
WGI visual caption just like the drum corps have allowed their sheets to
sacrifice for designers with no art degrees or credentials. Got news. It's
the same damn people. What once was a "marching caption" has tried over a 25
year span to be the "art-ballet-design" caption even though their members know
nothing about these items. The percussion judges and instructors ( Like
Pritchard at Mystique) are artistic no-nothings claiming that "education" is
going on.
Well Terry Pritchard, what are your art and design credentials? All educators
have credentials.. What are the WGI perc judges learning who are *trained* by
WGI clowns without credentials? A class given by another artistic fake? YOU
BET. Fake quantity squared! Then everyone wonders why things are getting so
messed up. It is simple. Double faked credentials. Gee, I learned design from
a guy who knows nothing but WGI says it's something so it must be OK.
WGI is full of artistic child predators who can only gain self esteem and a
quick buck off of youth. That is why they MUST have a "visual" judge on OUR
panels. That is why non-prop drum lines are dumped by them. It is a cycle that
we are going to have to fight to stop. WGI must go.
Hey Rick Brown. You have a big mouth but you dont know shit about art or
design sir. Are you really judging the visual caption at WGI shows for perc?
What in hell do you know about design Rick? What some WGI wanna-bee told
you? I was supposed to replace some WGI asshole at a show where the WGI perc
cats didnt show up. Gee, Rick....could you see the results of the visual
caption being judged by a REAL artist who has practiced REAL design for 15
years and marched 19 years? Hmmm...What kind of education would be going on
here? I bet my comments and scores would not be at all like the incompetant WGI
twit that judged the line I am working with. WGI's percussion training section
is run by which great artist? With what art credentials? These 250 lb. wrecks
couldnt do a ballet move if it hit em on the head. They cant dance and never
have. Its all bullshit for a buck.
Why cant you percussion people get the fact that all these corp and WGI
designers and "artists" are total fakes? They know nothing more than you about
design. Ask them to sketch at a critique. They cant. They sit and stare.
ALL designers I do business with know how to sketch. They dont have the talent.
They dont have the training. WHY SACRIFICE INDOOR PERC FOR THESE
IDIOTS????????
What was an indoor youth drumming/marching competition with the emphasis on
drumming has become - in just a few years - a bad prop / guard fashion show.
It worked for them in ruining the drum corps and now they try it here on the
drum lines.
So hey WGI....I want to see all these educational credentials you claim to
have. All you perc instructors who have the floor loaded with props.....when I
see your kids after the show I will ask them what in hell they are learning
aboiut "art"from you and the "design" WGI judges. So far I have 67 "nothings".
If nothing, what is the point of keeping these artistic freaks around? WGI is
not in the percussive realms best interest. Let the artistic child molesters
have their freaky little hair spray shows with baby buggies and cut up dolls ,
trampolines and face paint. I am involved to teach the kids how to perform
difficult*competitive* percussion.If you dont want to compete, take the drums
off and teach guard. Want to teach visual arts, go take a basic drawing
course. This isnt indoor oil painting or obtuse color guard or bad ballet;
it's indoor drum line. If the WGI judges want to dump the non-prop line that
play, then it is time to pull down their little panties and expose them for
what they are.
And just picture all the WGI freaks right now reading this and going into
another femmish tizzy. WGI has to go.
NOT IN STEP
Martin McIsaac
Don't be sugar-coating this. Tell us what you really think.....:)
Steve Sorrell
noti...@aol.com (NOTINSTEP) wrote:
<big snip>
Let's see, indoor guard and indoor percussion, both complete with
props, make-up, etc. Could indoor brass competition be far behind?
Although I disagree with much that Notinstep has said over the past
year or so that I have read his posts, and I definately disagree with
his manner of personally attacking people, I find myself agreeing with
him more with each post. Everytime I have read scores or such about
an indoor percussion competition, I thought that it was just that...an
indoor percussion competition. Just when did props and make-up and
choreography become a part of percussion competitions? That is most
ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as my nephew watching some giant
wrestler on WrestleMania take baseball great Pete Rose and give him a
pile-driver, then believe that it was real. I'm sure that WGI
percussion has its many defenders, but I can't believe that someone
actually came up with an idea like that.
My opinion...
Steve
Knamaky
NOT IN STEP,
Just wondering which indoor line it is that you work with. Also, if you
don't like what WGI does, then why hang around? You aren't helping anything.
There are other ways to compete indoors besides WGI.
Kevin Namaky
Glassmen '96-present
Capital Regiment Winter Line '98
Drummer's Heaven
http://members.aol.com/knamaky/gmen.htm
Info, Sheet Music, Sounds, Pics, and More!
James Dittrich
He's obviously isn't the only one who doesn't like it and would like it
changed. Why does he have to leave? Because someone doesn't like Bill
Clinton, they have to leave the U.S.? It would be a pretty empty country, I'd
say.
-Terri
Knamaky
>He's obviously isn't the only one who doesn't like it and would like it
>changed.
This is also not neccessarily the majority's opinion either. Maybe most people
like it the way it is.
> Why does he have to leave? Because someone doesn't like Bill
>Clinton, they have to leave the U.S.? It would be a pretty empty country,
>I'd
>say.
Leaving a country is a little too costly and unattainable for most people.
Leaving WGI is not. If you don't like what the Republican party does, then
don't be a member. If you don't like what WGI does, don't be a member. Same
thing.
Goose Stepper
NOTINSTEP wrote:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fwom the Wiot Cwub:
Terry and Rick, don't put up with this shit! Make an ass of NOTINSTEP
and post your credentials so he can see just who he is dealing with.
Prove how well educated you are! I am sure that once the world can see
your long years of artistic study and track record of superior artistic
performance you'll finally get the acclaim you richly deserve. Come on,
don't wait. Don't take this lying down OR bent over! Don't swallow what
you don't want to! Tell the world how well-educated you are in artisitic
design and all those nasty naysayers will just have to SHUT UP! That
mean you, Mr. NotInStep. And, regarding that crack about "child
molesters" I think you should know that an arrest is NOT a conviction in
America. So there!
Corresponding Secwetary,
The Permanent Fwoating Wiot Cwub
"We can cure this cwowd. We can make it wiot! H-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a" --
Elmer "Sticks" Fudd
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
MMccartt
NOTINSTEP wrote:
<<I am involved to teach the kids how to perform difficult*competitive*
percussion.If you dont want to compete, take the drums off and teach guard.
Want to teach visual arts, go take a basic drawing
course. This isnt indoor oil painting or obtuse color guard or bad ballet;
it's indoor drum line. If the WGI judges want to dump the non-prop line that
play, then it is time to pull down their little panties and expose them for
what they are.>>
Mr. Mazur, are you suggesting there should be no marching or visual packaging
to accompany indoor percussion? Would the activity be ideal for you if the
performers were to stand in an arc and play for an audience? If so, what's the
use of using outdoor percussion instruments designed to be carried and
maneuvered? Of course, your style just doesn't carry over to concert
percussion instruments... perhaps you can define the activity further. Pretend
you are creating your own indoor percussion circuit - explain the tenants of
it.
If you don't want the lines to stand still, who would design the movement, and
what limitations would they be subject to regarding "artisitc expression?"
What kinds of restrictions would be placed on uniform design? What about
overall show concepts - would there be any? Would there be any visual
bolstering of musical elements in regards to programming? Would there be
programming?
Would there be any stick/body visuals? To what guidelines would they be
subject?
One more question: Assuming your new activity is all about percussion
performance, rudimental playing, etc., and assuming that appreciation for such
a product would only come from an audience that is educated and proficient in
such a genre, how would you attract audience members? Perhaps indoor
percussion using your ideals should be limited as to the frequency and location
of performances, so as to aggrandize the event and ensure an adequate spectator
base. Seemingly, audiences for indoor percussion via the WGI medium are
smallish at best - you might say because performance sucks due to visual
design, but I say the audience does not relate to the product. Making it more
appealing to the average (WGI) audience member through the use of visual
gimmickry is the only sure way to sustain the activity, at least while it is
associated with WGI. I doubt the activity would sustain itself based on your
ideals... there is just not enough of a market for it, IMO.
It seems there already is an activity, with its own minute audience, based on
your ideas - it is called the parking lot. Drummers walk from line to line to
watch them warm-up and rehearse. If only we could charge admission to the
warm-up arc!
Marty McCartt
Kathy Gallmon
I loved the Capital Regiment Line in Miamisburg!!
Bill Haas
An orchestra playing is music
add dancing and it is ballet.
A percussion line playing is music.
Add props, backdrops, etc it is theater.
Where is the excellence of musical performance, when it is watered down by
better props, better dancers, etc.? We have taken the 'tick' out of drum
corps, and now reward the art of the attempt over the excellence of
execution. Now we take the sticks and mallets from a drummer's hands to
showcase visual design and performance.
Maybe I am missing the point here (and I am sure Mr. Mazur will correct me
if I am wrong), but why is the visual design in DCI and WGI becoming the
deciding factor over musical and visual performance. Yes performance, NOT
design and pretty sets and props? Why are we sacrificing the music to
become ballet, stomp and modern design showcases? I always thought the
point of our performance medium was to teach musical performance and
technique. These are valuable life skills. When was the last time anyone
outside the activity ever used a jazz run, or a tumbling pirouette with a
tenor drum?
By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with judged standstills Marty.
It is the true musical evaluation of a corps performance. There is always
room for general effect and ensemble judging, but standstills are not bad
things. Do the fans ask for their money back when the corps are forced (by
weather) to do standstill performances on tour? Take it one step further,
reassign the points and judge the show without visuals. The results might
open some eyes about how much Visual has overtaken the activity.
-Dinosaur alert-
We used to have standstills in the 'old days'. They were damn fine shows.
Imagine a standstill performance during Finals week, removing visual from
the equation. You might even have a Div II/III corps in the top 12, imagine
that. You certainly would have an equalizer by removing the 'art' of visual
from the performance and rewarding the excellence of execution that a
standstill demands.
I come back to my basic belief that the activity, be it DCI or WGI, is for
the members and the fans NOT the judges and designers. There is a place for
theater and ballet, but I am not sure that place is in the gymnasiums of
WGI, or on the football fields of DCI.
Just my 2 cents.
Bill Haas
Still fighting for the excellence of execution
Neal Kellogg
Remember, those who can, do. Those who can't, judge.
Neal Kellogg
1985-89 Baritone, Concord Blue Devils
1990-93 Designer, Concord Blue Devils "B" corps
Mike Collins
In article <6frv3j$h...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Bill Haas"
<ianm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Where is the excellence of musical performance, when it is watered down by
> better props, better dancers, etc.? We have taken the 'tick' out of drum
> corps, and now reward the art of the attempt over the excellence of
> execution. Now we take the sticks and mallets from a drummer's hands to
> showcase visual design and performance.
How very true...
> Maybe I am missing the point here (and I am sure Mr. Mazur will correct me
> if I am wrong), but why is the visual design in DCI and WGI becoming the
> deciding factor over musical and visual performance. Yes performance, NOT
> design and pretty sets and props? Why are we sacrificing the music to
> become ballet, stomp and modern design showcases?
I would venture that this has been happening for a very LONG
time...becoming is probably the wrong tense.
--
Mike Collins
1984,86 Blue Devils
1988-91 VK Brass Instuctor
1991-97 Lead Trumpet Disneyland Magic Kingdom Korps
1997-Now Elementary Band Teacher (listen to THAT all day!!)
Mike Collins
In article <199804010057...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rob...@aol.com (RobbSi) wrote:
> <<A percussion line playing is music.
> Add props, backdrops, etc it is>>........WGI theater.
>
> Is that a bad thing? Did they accomplish their goal? Are lines who compete
> w/ in the parameters of props & dancing doing so begrudgingly?
>
> Folks flip for the 1998 Kingsmen Indoor Percussion line. See them in action &
> you'll be convinced their program full of drumming and marching isn't any less
> exciting than any modern championship WGI, DCI or PAS line in the country.
> Performing Kansas' Magnum Opus and La Fiesta in the same show, The Kingsmen
> bring down the house down every time.......w/o props, w/ o dancing, & w/ o a
> theme. Based solely on crowd response, The Kingsmen are clearly the favorite
> every time.
>
> What are they doing right?
>
>
> -- Robb Sirat
> FMM Crossmen & The Blue Devils
> Founding Member: *** "PLEASE DRUM!" ***
> Percussionists Longing for Extended Accented Singles Executed
> Dynamically and Rudiments Unleashed on Mylar
Hey robb! How I would LOVE to hear a drum corps do Magnum
Opus...unfortunately, their are just WAY too many extended musical phrases
to do anything at all visually to...we would all fall asleep without some
good 2 7/16 count transitions. Also, based on my new handy, dandy
'Note-a-tron', it tells me there is just no way that we can fit in the
'required' 32 props, 6 uniform changes and the magic 'gender change' in
the show and still play all the melodies, oh well... (sarcasm off now) I
for one would love to hear this group...If what everyone here has said is
true about what has happened to indoor drum competition and there was not
a RIOT when people started doing it, then we better start playing taps for
the activity as a whole.....
ROO
Well, Not In Step you sure have a lot to say. You say it's for that
indoor perc. is for the Kids, well I'm a kid who performs with Spirit
Performing Youth Ensemble and I LOVE it. I Like calling what we do
"percussion theatre" It makes the learning experience all that much
more fun.
Spirit does use props, a floor, Scaffolding, costumes, make-up, and
hairspray, but we also play. We play our asses off!!!!
As for the High School lines, I don't much about them, I'll admit that,
But has it come across your one track mind that perhaps They might not
have a full line of drummers that can execute these rudiments you talk
about. And that the only way they can get a decent crowd response and
score is by playing simple rhythms and doing a "Stomp" style, theatrical
show.
> After consulting for a totally rudimental indoor line for a weekend that uses
> no props and plays their asses off,
One last thought on this for now...
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
ROO13
SPYE '96, 98
EpikDave
If you're ever in California and what to see indoor percussion, catch an NCBA
show, the talent is more evenly distributed and the judging more based in
fundamentals.
Dave
RobbSi
MMccartt
"Bill Haas" <ianm...@worldnet.att.net> penned some wonderful dialogue, some of
which I agree with:
<snip>
<<Where is the excellence of musical performance, when it is watered down by
better props, better dancers, etc.? We have taken the 'tick' out of drum
corps, and now reward the art of the attempt over the excellence of
execution. Now we take the sticks and mallets from a drummer's hands to
showcase visual design and performance.>>
Not all musical performances are "watered down by better props," etc. Surely
one should have respect for what the Cadets were doing in '95 and '96. The
term "ramming notes" comes to mind - with both brass and percussion elements.
Perhaps there were too many notes there to be ultimately clean. Who knows -
point is, I was awed by their ability as musical performers, and would put
those shows against any in a "which is truly more musically educational"
debate. Oh yeah: I was also awed by their programming execution - a
coordinated effort of visual and musical imagery.
Crown '96: the corps probably would not have been in finals without their show
concept. They had very young kids (average age of the horn line was 17) which,
while extremely hard working, had not yet developed to the ability level of
those in other corps of the top twelve. Meanwhile, audience members throughout
the summer were intrigued by SEEING something new and different, and Crown made
a memorable impression to the ticket buyers. Did the staff sacrifice offering
a quality musical education to its members in favor of some "spectacular"
visual program? No way. They simply did what they could to offer each member
a taste of success (in whatever form - my definition appears below).
Another case in point: Tarpon Springs High School Outdoor Performance Ensemble.
Massive amounts of props. A tiny band. Amazing technical proficiency and
musical performance. Fourth place at BOA Grand Nationals. They were small and
not very loud, and could have easily been shooed aside by the audience in favor
of larger, louder, more exciting bands, but decided to distinguish themselves
and create a memorable product by transforming the field with props. Now, the
audience can talk about "that big band which parted my hair" as well as "that
small band that made a Western town on the field". (I won't dwell on this
"band" talk - this is, after all, RAMD.)
Many say that "if only all corps could be like the Madison Scouts, DCI would
thrive again." I don't necessarily disagree with this, but even Madison has
musical execution problems brought about by visual design. I dare say Madison
has the cleanest drum line out there. Even Madison uses theatrical and ballet
elements to further the accessibility of their shows. Even Madison uses props
from time to time. Granted, the exclusion of their visual elements would still
produce an exciting product, but that corps is blessed with a phenomenal talent
base which most other corps simply cannot attain.
In my opinion, there is a much greater cross section of a DCI or indoor
percussion audience who don't know the difference between a "pretty clean"
snare lick and a "HOT-DAMN! THAT LINE'S FULL OF KEN MAZURS!" snare lick.
Obviously, we need to cater to what thrills the masses. I AM NOT suggesting
that we forget completely about a dedication to exemplary technique; the "art
of the attempt" and the "excellence of execution" can coalesce to form an even
more amazing activity, and one which will ensure the continued patronage of the
AVERAGE audience member. I would assume that's what the Cadets - and even
Madison - have been trying to do.
At one time, the coolest thing imagineable would be to go to an outdoor Sousa
concert. Not any more. No longer do the masses get all giddy over a chamber
performance of King Ludwig's court players, showing off the latest Renaissance
masterpiece of Heinrich Schutz. We go to movies instead of a Shakespeare
performance. (Regardless, there are still a select FEW who appreciate a
tasteful performance of "Taming of the Shrew". There is still a theatre-going
audience, albeit a dramatically smaller percentage than that of Elizabethan
England.) These mediums gave ways to bigger and better things, and did so by
supply and demand. Some say drum corps is experiencing the same fate. We must
acknowledge the fact that people can get blown away by spending 6 bucks to see
Titanic. They can spend 20 bucks and buy the video, and watch it over and over
again in the comfort of their own home, as opposed to spending 20 bucks (at
least) to travel to a drum corps show and see the same-old same old. There are
new and exciting mediums of entertainment, considering that the art of
attracting an audience (and dollars) evolves and has evolved since the
beginning of civilization. If all drum corps had the talent to thrill an
audience like Madison Scouts, we might not be having be having this
converstation; fact is, they don't, and they must use alternative means to do
so. Unfortunately, DCI rules and regs severely limit the "alternative means."
This entertainment-based society we live in likes newer and bigger and better.
As it stands right now, we can't offer that. Drum corps sounds the same to
those not able to pick out the finer points of flam technique. There are many
who like theater on the drum corps field. My mom goes to watch the colorguard
(and she hates winterguard - go figure...).
<<Maybe I am missing the point here (and I am sure Mr. Mazur will correct me
if I am wrong), but why is the visual design in DCI and WGI becoming the
deciding factor over musical and visual performance. Yes performance, NOT
design and pretty sets and props? Why are we sacrificing the music to
become ballet, stomp and modern design showcases? I always thought the
point of our performance medium was to teach musical performance and
technique.>>
I always thought it was to entertain a crowd watching a "marching" drum and
bugle corps. Drum corps is loud, and in the early days (according to the
recordings I've heard), at least in reference to brass technique, individual
and ensemble sound quality and intonation were second to sheer volume. We are
still attempting to overcome the prejudice of high school and university music
educators who wince at the thought of their students marching in a drum and
bugle corps, telling them things like "corps will destroy your chops," or
"corps will desensitize your musicianship." Thank goodness we can now yield
similar results in volume while instilling the art of impeccable individual and
ensemble performance.
<<These are valuable life skills. When was the last time anyone
outside the activity ever used a jazz run, or a tumbling pirouette with a
tenor drum?>>
When was the last time someone outside the activity used a marching tenor drum?
<<By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with judged standstills
Marty.>>
Not as long as they will attract a big enough audience to pay the judges and
offer enough performance opportunities for the performers.
<<It is the true musical evaluation of a corps performance. There is always
room for general effect and ensemble judging, but standstills are not bad
things.>>
As a teacher and musical arranger, standstills are the pinnacle of my time in
front of any ensemble. I agree with you. I am merely pointing out that, by
definition, the drum corps activity - or indoor percussion activity, for that
matter - involves moving, or "marching."
<<Do the fans ask for their money back when the corps are forced (by
weather) to do standstill performances on tour? Take it one step further,
reassign the points and judge the show without visuals. The results might
open some eyes about how much Visual has overtaken the activity.>>
Perhaps it may. I just don't understand how a field music judge would be
swayed by visual elements. If you are saying that a corps with a demanding
visual program cannot perform musically as well as a corps with an easy visual
program while on the move due to the fact that, perhaps, the first corps would
spend more time rehearsing visual elements, then the results would be the same
whether they are moving or not. By suggesting music performance judges are
swayed by visual effect is to undermine those judges' credibility. Sure, there
are a few idiots who will assess outside their caption, but for the most part,
my experience has been that adjudicators are, for the most part, professional
and credible with respect to the performance sheets. Don't get me started
about general effect adjudication...
<<We used to have standstills in the 'old days'. They were damn fine shows.
Imagine a standstill performance during Finals week, removing visual from
the equation. You might even have a Div II/III corps in the top 12, imagine
that. You certainly would have an equalizer by removing the 'art' of visual
from the performance and rewarding the excellence of execution that a
standstill demands.>>
If I may, marching and playing demands an even higher level of excellence in
execution.
<<I come back to my basic belief that the activity, be it DCI or WGI, is for
the members and the fans NOT the judges and designers.
I agree again. We just need to be sure we are catering to what the majority of
the fans find intriguing. As a musical designer by profession, I and many like
me toil endlessly in an effort to create musical effects which will thrill
audiences. I learn through my successes and failures, and am committed to
providing the performers the biggest vehicles for success. I define success as
unquestionable communication to the audience. I define success as a kick-ass
ovation brought about by the brilliant performance of great music and the
coordinated visual and musical effect of exceptional design. The more punches,
the better. Kick 'em while they're up!
<<There is a place for theater and ballet, but I am not sure that place is in
the gymnasiums of
WGI, or on the football fields of DCI.>>
If it boils down to kids of the 1990's experiencing greater levels of
recognition and audience appreciation by doing theatre and ballet, I'm all for
it.
<<Just my 2 cents.
Bill Haas
Still fighting for the excellence of execution>>
As are we all.
I hope my ideas of change are proven wrong one day - that means the activity,
as it stands, has the capability to thrive. I also hope I am proven right, as
long as it comes about by change. If I am right and the activity has not
changed, that means it is dead.
Marty McCartt
JazzContra
Hey Neal...I though the old adage went, "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach. Those who can't teach, judge."
John Adcock
Another Old BD Fart
mda...@ets.org
In article <199803312054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
mmcc...@aol.com (MMccartt) wrote:
>
> Mr. Mazur, are you suggesting there should be no marching or visual
packaging
> to accompany indoor percussion?
It doesn't HAVE to be an all-or-nothing kind of deal here. As long as the the
playing is the primary focus, and not the visual design, then there shouldn't
be a big problem. It's when it becomes too much of a 'bread and circus'
extravaganza that the problems begin. I judged a couple of indoor high school
lines last winter, Dartmouth, Mass and Trumbull, Conn. Both lines did drills,
and Dartmouth even wore costumes. However, both lines played GREAT music
extremely well; the focus was on the kids' performances.
>Would the activity be ideal for you if the
> performers were to stand in an arc and play for an audience?
This just triggered a TOTALLY unrelated memory (Dinosaur alert!!!). Weh I
marched a Garden State corps in 68 and 69, the indoor guards used drumlines
for their 'music', not tapes. We DID just stand there and play. Maybe THAT'S
the kind of thing WGI needs. :-)
We seem to get trapped at the far ends of the spectrum here, not realizing
that there is an enormous middle ground available.
Mike
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Rick Brown
Goose...thanks for coming to Terry & my rescue. I don't feel the need to
defend myself from accusations of child molestation, nor post my
credentials. In fact, in both the business world, and in the world of
pagentry, our diploma and our degrees are not a requirement for
satisfactory performance nor employment. Those who know both Terry & I know
what we have done, no discussion needs to be laid out.
Regarding Mr. Notinstep, personal attacks demean one's position. While it
could be argued that WGI certainly has two divergent ideas of what
constitutes highest achievement in style (production vs flat out ramming
rudiments), both are worthy paths, and both are currently being rewarded.
Don't you all find it interesting that Mr. NIS has consulted with an indoor
line (undoubtedly a high school program) for one weekend, and is therefore
a self appointed expert? Good analogy...I saw NASCAR on TV...now let me
drive!
Further, while NIS has a business of design & architectural something or
other on his wall, does it mean all design personnel are qualified and
capable of all design? I could come up with a scheme for a nice house, but
I doubt I could design a dress...both design.
Finally, is it not a case of if NIS has brilliant credentials and
capabilities, would he not be working in the activity as a designer &
instructor, or as an adjudicator? Can he hold a job? Past experience
indicates NO.
RobbSi
<<Don't you all find it interesting that Mr. NIS has consulted with an
therefore a self appointed expert? Good analogy...I saw NASCAR on TV...now let
me drive!>>
Bad analogy. NIS knows how to drive the car, tear down the motor and can teach
others how to win at NASCAR, INDY and 1/4 milers.
NIS is familiar w/ the activity of rudimental drumming performance to make an
evaluation after one weekend of viewing. I actually enjoy some of the WGI
performances, props and all. I still prefer a less artsy / visual design
approach to the activity.
At times, his posts are mean spirited. But they're not Hoppy-speak glaze-overs
either..... he shys away from those.
Robb Sirat
Robert Brown
Hey Neal,
>
> Remember, those who can, do. Those who can't, judge.
>
And those who can't judge, ummmmm, complain?
Rob
BD 81-85
Nikk Pilato
Bait. Very big bait.
Nikk
Sigh.....
Martin McIsaac
ROO wrote:
> They might not
> have a full line of drummers that can execute these rudiments you talk
> about.
>
Martin McIsaac
I would suggest to you that yes, Ken's "credentials" are of the highest
order. Please refer to his incredible treatise on "where the drums have
gone in drum corps." Could he make an evaluation of the state of indoor
percussion on the basis of one weekend, again yes.
You may not care for his bombastic style (no one likes to get ripped)
but I too am curious. Are you a drummer? If not, just exactly what is
your expertise in percussion? No rip, just curious....
ChiBoyinLA
<RANT ON>
One of Ken's points is extremely valuable: Why are non-percussionists judging
an indoor drumline contest?
The answer can only be that they are there to judge something other than
musical achievement.
I have been involved with indoor marching percussion competitions for nearly 18
years, starting with the "Percussion Guild" Contest in Northbrook, IL, one of
the first attempts at this type of competition. Until WGI came along, I had
never encountered nor heard of a judging panel that included
non-percussionists.
In all other formats that I've seen, musical excellence has been far and away
the biggest factor in the scores generated by the judges, and usually music
execution is worth well over half the score. With extremely limited
exceptions, only percussionists have the trained eyes and ears needed to
properly evaluate a marching percussion performance.
No matter WHAT percentage of the score WGI assigns to "visual" and "general
effect," it is axiomatic that the focus on execution is LESSENED. Obviously,
Ken has a big problem with the fact that the focus of the judging is now being
changed from what it has been since the inception of the activity. In his
opinion, such a change of focus will lead to a change in the genre itself and
will weaken the activity.
I agree with him.
Whoever said that WGI's way is appropriate because it could lead to a larger
audience for the activity is nuts!! Why do we NEED a "larger audience" for the
activity?! If the focus is on the KIDS, as it should be, we should be
concentrating on making the KIDS better players, not trying to put more fannies
in grandstands.
And for the past two decades, the indoor activity has been an extremely
valuable method for teaching kids how do play. Why? Because the focus of the
activity has been PLAYING THE DRUMS. The instuctors can focus 100% attention
on the drummers for an extended period of time
- no need to worry about the rest of the band
- no need to worry about props or guard equipment
- only limited time needed to be spent on drill
WHY CHANGE THIS??
The only reason for the perceived "need" for a "larger audience" is so that
more $$$ can be generated for the adults designing ever-more ridiculous visual
programs at the expense of ever-less challenging and educational musical
programs. That is just wrong. Heck, if a program has a couple thousand bucks
to spend on props or a performance "floor", why not use that money to hire
another instructor so that the KIDS get even more direct attention? You know,
lower the teacher/student ratio.
Thank goodness PASIC doesn't care about anything other than whether the kids
can play their drums well.
<Rant Off>
James Dittrich
I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and their desire for change if
they wish. I don't think you *have* to leave, though. I teach a drumline
that goes to WGI. It doesn't mean I like the judging criteria, but it doesn't
mean I can't take the line there either. BTW, I saw your line at Normal and
I thought you were very good.
-Terri
James Dittrich
You don't know who Rick Brown is? He's good and I'm a little surprised
that NIS picked him out to nail. I usually agree with him but I don't this
time.
-Terri
ryan shepherd
On 1 Apr 1998 03:15:17 GMT, mmcc...@aol.com (MMccartt) wrote:
>
>"Bill Haas" <ianm...@worldnet.att.net> penned some wonderful dialogue, some of
>which I agree with:
>
big snip (that you should check out on dejanews if you have not read a
copy)
It seems that you think this kind of activity is about your designing
and getting more people to see <your> product. But let's not change
for the "kids of the '90's." Let's focus on on the " ...great music
and the coordinated visual and musical effect of exceptional design."
This post comes across with a rather selfish attitude. Do I
understand it correctly?
Ryan flip Shepherd
Bill Haas
Marty,
I am going to try and condense this to a readable form and I apologize for
cutting some out. I do see this as your "Ode to Design!" in many ways.
>
>Not all musical performances are "watered down by better props," etc.
>Surely one should have respect for what the Cadets were doing in '95 and
>'96. The term "ramming notes" comes to mind - with both brass and
>percussion elements. Perhaps there were too many notes there to be
>ultimately clean. Who knows -point is, I was awed by their ability as
>musical performers, and would put those shows against any in a "which is
>truly more musically educational" debate. Oh yeah: I was also awed by
>their programming execution - a coordinated effort of visual and musical
>imagery.
Yes, Cadets have very good corps and shows, but the props were very
incidental in '95 and provided a break for exhausted members to hide behind
and catch their breath in '96. I think honestly, the show would have been
rewarded the same without the props.
>
>Crown '96: the corps probably would not have been in finals without
>their show concept. They had very young kids (average age of the horn
>line was 17) which, while extremely hard working, had not yet developed
>to the ability level of those in other corps of the top twelve. <Snip>
We all know this show was originally written for Suncoast, and was both
innovative and visually pleasing. BUT, give the kids credit Marty. The
kids pushed the show to tenth place. They marched, they played, and I
really find your praise of the design over the performance of the members a
little troubling.
>
>Another case in point: Tarpon Springs High School Outdoor Performance
>Ensemble. Massive amounts of props. A tiny band. Amazing technical
>proficiency and musical performance. Fourth place at BOA Grand
>Nationals. They were small and not very loud, and could have easily
>been shooed aside by the audience in favor of larger, louder, more
>exciting bands, but decided to distinguish themselves and create a
>memorable product by transforming the field with props.
I saw the Tarpon show twice this year. Basically a nice cover of 96 Cadets
with larger props. You keep praising props and design as being critical to
the placement of the band, not the kids performance.. I see a trend hear,
Cadets '95 and '96 ramming notes... too many to be clean. Crown, young
inexperienced corps add props, voila top 12. Tarpon, small band large
props, 4th at BOA. If this is your idea of success of the medium, we are
all in trouble.
>
>Many say that "if only all corps could be like the Madison Scouts, DCI
>would thrive again." I don't necessarily disagree with this, but even
>Madison has musical execution problems brought about by visual design.
>I dare say Madison has the cleanest drum line out there. Even Madison
>uses theatrical and ballet elements to further the accessibility of
>their shows. Even Madison uses props from time to time. Granted, the
>exclusion of their visual elements would still
>produce an exciting product, but that corps is blessed with a phenomenal
>talent base which most other corps simply cannot attain.
Oh more of the same, talent can and will succeed, but add props and the weak
and less talented will succeed. Interesting theory. I wonder what Madison
could do with props? Wonder why Les Etoiles missed semis with the best prop
of the year? Why do you claim that Madison's talent is phenomenal when so
are the rest of the top 6 corps? Why single them out for success without
props?
>
>Obviously, we need to cater to what thrills the masses.
I have yet to see the masses thrilled by props and design Marty.
> Some say drum corps is experiencing the same
>fate. ....as opposed to spending 20 bucks (at least) to travel to a drum
>corps show and see the same-old same old. There are new and exciting
>mediums of entertainment, considering that the art of
>attracting an audience (and dollars) evolves and has evolved since the
>beginning of civilization. If all drum corps had the talent to thrill
>an audience like Madison Scouts, we might not be having be having this
>conversation; fact is, they don't, and they must use alternative means
>to do so.
But the audience is thrilled, the members are happy... the execution is
excellent... just the judges and pseudo designers aren't pleased therefore
they finish fifth. By the way, if I was BD, I would be laughing at this
conversation, since they thrill the crowds and have the rings. Props and
design haven't solved Cadets execution problems or Crown's for that matter.
Maybe if Magic and Bluecoats had added props they would have passed Glassmen
or BK in 97.
This whole conversation is ridiculous. Popular is music that gets the
people out of their seats (whether it be classical or jazz, popular or
ballet), something I haven't seen props or visual design do (except maybe
Madison's wheel and company front)-both traditional drum corps moves going
back to the 50's and 60's.
>I always thought it was to entertain a crowd watching a "marching" drum
>and bugle corps.
Marching is the key word here Marty.
>Drum corps is loud, and in the early days (according
>to the recordings I've heard), at least in reference to brass technique,
>individual and ensemble sound quality and intonation were second to
>sheer volume.
Try playing a G-D or Valve rotor bugle Marty. I did, we were limited by our
equipment and your listening today is limited by the recording equipment.
What you hear today is like listening to a 78 record when I was growing up.
And when I marched, hell yes we played LOUD-and soft too. Funny Phantom is
doing a piece this year from Madame Butterfly we did in 1969. Will the
circle remain unbroken?
>Thank goodness we can now yield
>similar results in volume while instilling the art of impeccable
>individual and ensemble performance.
Thank you for your evaluation of our performance and instructors Marty. I
saw Don Angelica, Hy Dreitzer, Eddie Denon, Jim Wedge and Sandie Opie shows,
and hundreds of others. I saw and heard great horn lines, with tone, with
quality and with dynamics-in all eras.
>
>As a teacher and musical arranger, standstills are the pinnacle of my
>time in front of any ensemble. I agree with you. I am merely pointing
>out that, by definition, the drum corps activity - or indoor percussion
>activity, for that matter - involves moving, or "marching."
And I am pointing out-IT doesn't have to. There is a time and place for
both. Ask David Gibbs if you don't believe me. Moving yes, but not at the
expense of playing and performing MUSIC.
>
>If I may, marching and playing demands an even higher level of
>excellence in execution.
Marty, you can execute the music or you can't. Drill adds difficulty and
yes, that should be rewarded. But if the music cannot be executed with the
visual there should be a penalty, on the field, in execution and
performance. It is the risk you take as an arranger and as a designer.
>I agree again. We just need to be sure we are catering to what the
>majority of the fans find intriguing.
Who decides that? The judges, the designers, or the fans and members who
should have the say. The majority of fans boo every time Madison comes in
fifth. No one copies their shows because they come in fifth. And you don't
need to cater to what the fans find intriguing, why not try catering to what
they LIKE and keep them coming?
>If it boils down to kids of the 1990's experiencing greater levels of
>recognition and audience appreciation by doing theatre and ballet, I'm
>all for it.
OK. I am not. I am for the excellence of execution and excitement of the
performance (and recognition and appreciation of the fans) for the kids.
The audience may appreciate it, but there is less audience every year.
Maybe because the fans have more knowledge than the experts, they know what
they like and pay their money not design for the judges and take the money.
Just as with Titanic- It ain't Shakespeare, it's a love story on a sinking
ship. You don't write the Titanic script for the crew to do a z-pull on
the iceberg while the percussion line throws the drums overboard to play on
the side of the sinking ship as they slide into the water and drown, while
the guard does pirouettes of sorrowful joy in the life boats.
>
>I hope my ideas of change are proven wrong one day - that means the
>activity, as it stands, has the capability to thrive.
Madison, BD, Crossmen and SCV all show that you can do 'new' drum corps
(including some theater and ballet) without the frills of excessive design
and props and be successful and popular. Is anyone listening?
>I also hope I am proven right, as long as it comes about by change.
Your ideas for change scare me.
>If I am right and the activity has not changed, that means it is dead.
And you will work either way. But kids won't be able to march drum and
bugle corps if your ideas for change fail. Let's work to make drum corps
popular again and stop the movement away from the basics of the form.
Bill Haas
Martin McIsaac
Thank you Bill. As usual, you're right on the money. You express the
sentiments of a growing segment. This segment being united only in their
discontent with the present trends. Thanks again
RobbSi
Please list the credentials of those on RAMD who are WGI adjudicators /
enthusiasts / administrators/ visual design proponents.......Terry Pritchard,
Rick Brown (?) et. al. I can't find their resume. I ask not to flame, but to
see for myself if they have experience relating directly to rudimental
percussion.
In the true sense.....are they drummers.?
(hey, we taught Tuba players in Devils how to crash on 1 & 3)
RobbSi
-- Robb Sirat
NARD and IARP enthusiast
ADuncan679
After reading many of your comments concerning percussion in WGI I must add a
few comments from someone with a guard background. Since credentials seem to
be important to the people posting: I have marched one year of corps in the
drumline and 5 years in the guard. I have marched 8 years of winter guard, won
a WGI World Championship and have instructed10 years.
With that said and done..on to my comment. I agree with that including more
visuals does not neccessarily make for better drummers. At the same time
though the drumming is weighted more heavily on the judging sheets than the
visuals. If you don't want the visual stuff, there is a concert class where
visuals are not a factor at all.
chibo...@aol.com wrote:
>Whoever said that WGI's way is appropriate because it could lead to a larger
>audience for the activity is nuts!! Why do we NEED a "larger audience" for
>the
>activity?! If the focus is on the KIDS, as it should be, we should be
>concentrating on making the KIDS better players, not trying to put more
>fannies
>in grandstands.
I don't think anyone ever said WGI is the only way indoor percussion be done.
What it is though is another outlet for young kids to become involved in, and
therefore providing another way to educate them in a different activity. The
kids I have seen at the percussion competitions seem to be enjoying what they
are doing. I don't think its right for people to downgrade the hardwork they
have put into the activity.
As far as commenting on the fact that WGI is bringing indoor percussion to a
larger audience; why is this neccessarily a bad then? I guarantee that WGI
does not sell out for the percussion competitions, so money is not the whole
issue. What it has done though, besides promoting pdrumming in general, is
educate and raise the interest of non-percussion people (like myself) by
getting the visuals involved. Most non-percussionists would not sit through
hours of drum competition simply because most people don't understand or
appreciate the fundamentals and techniques involved, nor would they find it
that interesting. However with the added visuals it inherently becomes more
entertaining to the general non-drumming public, and therefore more people are
exposed to drumming and appreciate it for the art it is.
I could go on, but I hate reading long messages myself, so I'm not going to
drag this out.
Basically if you don't appreciate what WGI has done with indoor percussion,
don't go and see it. You are entitled to your opinions as is everyone one
else, but please don't demean the activity for those kids involved.
Thank you,
Ann
Argonne Rebels
Sky Ryders
Odyssey
Pete Ellison
uh...marching lots of vets with plenty of years experience?!?
RobbSi
<<uh...marching lots of vets with plenty of years experience?!?>>
You and I know vets & experience are just part of the equation. I don't
believe those two factors weigh as heavily as others.
Looking forward to the Van Nuys show...
--Robb Sirat
mda...@ets.org
In article <6fuugv$9...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"Bill Haas" <ianm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your evaluation of our performance and instructors Marty. I
> saw Don Angelica, Hy Dreitzer, Eddie Denon, Jim Wedge and Sandie Opie shows,
> and hundreds of others. I saw and heard great horn lines, with tone, with
> quality and with dynamics-in all eras.
>
Agree here.
>
> Who decides that? The judges, the designers, or the fans and members who
> should have the say. The majority of fans boo every time Madison comes in
> fifth. No one copies their shows because they come in fifth. And you don't
> need to cater to what the fans find intriguing, why not try catering to what
> they LIKE and keep them coming?
>
There have ALWAYS been 'crowd favorites' who triggered just such a reaction,
Bill. I can remember hearing that reaction many times in the old days when the
'favorite' didn't win.
>
> >If I am right and the activity has not changed, that means it is dead.
>
> And you will work either way. But kids won't be able to march drum and
> bugle corps if your ideas for change fail. Let's work to make drum corps
> popular again and stop the movement away from the basics of the form.
>
IMHO, the minute you stop 'change', the activity will whither and die, even
more than it is now. What I DO favor is a wide range of 'acceptable' shows,
from the most esoteric to the most crowd-pleasing. The window should be open
wider than it is, but STOP the change? I hope not.
mda...@ets.org
In article <199804010315...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mmcc...@aol.com (MMccartt) wrote:
>
> Massive amounts of props. A tiny band. Amazing technical proficiency and
> musical performance. Fourth place at BOA Grand Nationals.
Hopefully their placement came as a result of your LAST sentence, NOT the
props. Of course, with a smaller band, instrument placement is EXTREMELY
important, so the visual program becomes a highly important part of the show.
I've judged many small bands that try and march 'big band' drill; it almost
always fails. BUT, I've also had superior 20 piece bands ahead of also
superior 90 piece bands when their performance was justthismuchbetter. The
positioning of the instrumentalists becomes highly critical, but the props
should only play a tiny part of the story, although if well done they
certainhly can add a nice touch to a show.
>They were small and
> not very loud,
So what. since when is LOUD an indicator of excellence. I'd rather reward
good over loud any day of the week.
>
> Drum corps is loud, and in the early days (according to the
> recordings I've heard), at least in reference to brass technique, individual
> and ensemble sound quality and intonation were second to sheer volume.
I marched in Garfield from 70-72, and in 72 switched from tri-tom to baritone.
My brass instructors, Don Angelica and Frank Levy, BOTH music teachers of
former music teachers, NEVER told us to play LOUD; they taught us to play
well. My drum instructor in 70 and 71, George tuthill (I believe a grad of the
Manhattan School of Music) also never taught us to play LOUD; he too taught us
to play well. 27th Lancers played well, not merely LOUD; SCV, Argonne Rebels,
Blue Rock, LaCrosse Blue Stars, etc... all played WELL, not merely LOUD.
>By suggesting music performance judges are
> swayed by visual effect is to undermine those judges' credibility.
Agreed!
>
> I agree again. We just need to be sure we are catering to what the majority
of
> the fans find intriguing. As a musical designer by profession, I and many
like
> me toil endlessly in an effort to create musical effects which will thrill
> audiences. I learn through my successes and failures, and am committed to
> providing the performers the biggest vehicles for success. I define success
as
> unquestionable communication to the audience. I define success as a
kick-ass
> ovation brought about by the brilliant performance of great music and the
> coordinated visual and musical effect of exceptional design. The more
punches,
> the better. Kick 'em while they're up!
>
Well said!! the goal is NOT to inflate the designer's ego, but to provide a
worthwhile experience for the young people performing the show. Of course, the
better the show they get, the better they will be able to perform it.
>
> If it boils down to kids of the 1990's experiencing greater levels of
> recognition and audience appreciation by doing theatre and ballet, I'm all
for
> it.
>
Absolutely agree here too.
> I also hope I am proven right, as
> long as it comes about by change. If I am right and the activity has not
> changed, that means it is dead.
>
We basically agree here. Think of the changes in DC from 1950 to 1970, and
then look at the chages from 1970 to 1990. It's ALWAYS been an activity of
change.
Bill Haas
mda...@ets.org wrote in message <6g06oi$lmg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>IMHO, the minute you stop 'change', the activity will whither and die, even
>more than it is now. What I DO favor is a wide range of 'acceptable' shows,
>from the most esoteric to the most crowd-pleasing. The window should be
open
>wider than it is, but STOP the change? I hope not.
When did I say stop the change Mike? I have said many times that there are
many kinds of popular shows in all musical and visual styles but esoteric
may be the biggest problem of all, it doesn't gain fans it drives them away.
'Acceptable' to who Mike? The designers and judges or the fans and members?
The greatest misconception of the modern era is that drum corps is art on a
football field.
I am more than willing to changes in the form, but not the basics of brass
and percussion and not the belief that to succeed we need to return to
'popular' programming.
Bill
ryan shepherd
On 1 Apr 1998 03:15:17 GMT, mmcc...@aol.com (MMccartt) wrote:
<snip>
This is the kind of attitude that perpetuates mediocre
drummers/percussionists at a teenage level. Marching band programs do
not provide their drumming students with a quality foundation. Why
should they? The judging and design community don't expect this of
them. This includes both basic rudimental and musical structure. An
excellent percussion section carries little, or no weight in most MB
competitions.
Marty, They SHOULD all want to be Ken Mazurs, Rich Vianos, and Mark
Thurstons. They should want to be excellent. But you are telling
them not to be concerned with that. To bring themselves down to an
"average" level.
Attitudes like this are what spawned the indoor movement to begin
with. Great drumlines, that got no credit for their greatness, would
not accept these standards. That is why shows like Northbrook, IL,
that Chiboy already mentioned, paved the way.
But when the "general educationists" saw this opportunity to promote
their design, they jumped right in. And again you want it dumbed down
so more people can see YOUR design.
(sigh)
Ryan flip Shepherd
...very big snip...
Pete Ellison
I think that vets & experience are a hughe part of the equation. Consider
the audiences that Kingsman have been playing to - Mostly high school
students and a sprinkling of fans. The response they are getting is exactly
what they should be getting...but it is also why they have been placed in
both WGI and the American Drum Line Association circuit in their own
division as a "Senior" drum line. This is not to put down any of their
efforts by any means...I think their show is very cool.
I look forward to seeing you at our show on Saturday.
-Pete Ellison
NOTINSTEP
You contradict yourself Mr. Davis. Competitive rules set the criteria. The
criteria defines the product. If it is constantly changing, you would have 6
balls and 5 strikes one year and 2 balls and a strike the next. The "fans"
would go away. In corp they are going away. No economic "base" can be built
with so much change in a competitive entertainment enviorment. Look at any
sport.. The rules remain similar for decades....mostly fine tuned. ( 3 point
shot.... football 2 point etc) Still gotta throw and catch the ball.
Well...the lines dont play the drums anymore,( the judging is subjective as
opposed to the 99% correct baseball umpire.) You dont see the baseball umps
discussing the colors of the uniforms do you? Too subjective. They do their
business in what they know.....baseball. Now we have drum judges being FORCED
to take a 30 hour WGI "training" course in "visual design" taught by fools with
no art background at all. And you wonder what is wrong? You cant market
change. As you gain one new base, you lose the pervious one. You go nowhere.
NOT IN STEP
drum...@juno.com
>Please list the credentials of those on RAMD who are WGI adjudicators /
>enthusiasts / administrators/ visual design proponents.......
Well I'm neither of those but since you asked....
West Lincoln HS Indoor Drumline '94, '95
South Cobb HS Indoor Drumline '97 ('98 resigned)
Various helper of West Lincoln and South Cobb's winterguards from
'94-'97.
Doesn't sound like much, but it was. But I'm only 17.
---
Jason Lowe
drum...@juno.com
AOL - SnareGuy03
ICQ - 8216959
http://members.xoom.com/drumcorps/index.htm
_____________________________________________________________________
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drum...@juno.com
Kevin Namaky writes:
> Leaving a country is a little too costly and unattainable for most
people.
> Leaving WGI is not. If you don't like what the Republican party does,
then
> don't be a member. If you don't like what WGI does, don't be a member.
Same
> thing.
Correct. This season was my ageout season with my high school line and I
resigned during the first week of January. Why? I had many reasons. One
was that it was way too expensive ($1000 for 3 trips; twice to Florida,
once to Virginia). Another was that I had some philosophical differences
with the indoor line itself, including the instructors. I usually adapt
to small changes but the ideas they had were not my style. Most everyone
knows that I am not a quitter. That's why I call it resignation. Two
different things in my opinion. It ended up being better anyway, the line
didn't move up very far this season and made scores in the 40s range.
Would I march an indoor line if I had the chance? Maybe. I don't think
there are any around here (Atlanta). I haven't really looked though.
NOTINSTEP
Rick Brown,
Post your design credentials sir. C'mon Mr. artist. You dont have any. Just
trying to rake in a few more judging dollars with a flimsy excuse....something
you are very good at. You have nothing to teach kids in "design" because you
are WGI taught. They know nothing either. Its amazing how you WGI people all
claim such grand knowledge of design, show productions and other entertainment
nuances. Well, what the hell is it that you know about design Brown? What?
Tell us. Tell the kids you claim to "judge". They'll have a laugh. They
probably know as much as you ....and as much as the dumb self appointed WGI
visual clowns who taught you at their percussion clinics. Fool us with buzz
words some WGI judge had you memorize at the local burger stand. Put up sir.
What do you know about visual design? If nothing, why are you judging ? Give us
some of your more profound concepts of artistic integrity. Lets hear it.
You say you wont list your design credentials? Too good for us hugh? You're
"above" it all. Above us all. PAR FOR THE COURSE Mr. design. You fit the WGI
mold well.
NOT IN STEP
NOTINSTEP
Ann,
I dont see percussion judges doing the execution caption for guards. "Visual"
judges not trained in perc have no clue as to demand in drumming coordination
and drill. Pretty hard to do a pirouette with 20lbs of eq harnessed to your
bod. Last time I saw Nutcracker, the dancers wore no drums.
What is happening is that WGI sees a new money making ploy at the expense of
the percussion youth who "march". The judges take their cut and will enjoy the
extra slot so there is more work. That it is a non-perc person makes it even
more appealing. I suggest the "guard people" stick to ruining their own
contests as they have over the years. Indoor perc was formed as a way to let
youth display talents not readily allowed in the marching bands or college
lines. They did it very well till WGI got its sticky little fingers on it. Now
they roll around on the floor, buy lipstick in bulk and need 20 people to carry
all the junk around. It killed the drum corps. It will kill this too. Watch.
NOT IN STEP
mda...@ets.org
In article <199804020142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rob...@aol.com (RobbSi) wrote:
>
>
> (hey, we taught Tuba players in Devils how to crash on 1 & 3)
>
But what did they crash INTO?
mda...@ets.org
In article <6g0a8d$o...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
"Bill Haas" <ianm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
Bill,
<When did I say stop the change Mike? I have said many times that there are
many kinds of popular shows in all musical and visual styles but esoteric
may be the biggest problem of all, it doesn't gain fans it drives them away.>
Well, we disagree a bit here. I personally loved the things Star did; I also
love the symphonic music programmed by Phantom Regiment year in and year out.
However, I also love Madison and don't want to see what THEY do get buried
either.
<'Acceptable' to who Mike? The designers and judges or the fans and members?>
Yes to all four groups.I want Madison to have a shot, even though they aren't
cutting edge; I also want to reward those that DO stretch the envelope. I want
to see the window of what is acceptable opened as far aspossible, to INCLUDE
those groups currently left out due to 'old fashioned' shows.
<The greatest misconception of the modern era is that drum corps is art on a
football field.>
Well, IMHO it IS art on a football field, which doesn't make it bad. The term
'ART' stretches pretty darn far, from random splotches of paint thrown on a
canvas to the Mona Lisa. There's room in it for every DC, from PR to Madison.
<I am more than willing to changes in the form, but not the basics of brass
and percussion and not the belief that to succeed we need to return to
'popular' programming.>
You know where aI stand on the basics of brass and percussion, so enough of
that! :-)
However, I DO agree that if a corps chooses to do 'popular' music, they should
have just as valid a shot at the title as any other corps, assuming
performance levels, etc are equal. That's what I mean by OPENING the window of
acceptable.
Bring on the woodwinds!!!! (ducking quickly)
James Dittrich
I understand if you are an individual, but when you have a line, the kids
want to go to as many shows as you can after you work so hard, for so long.
To say, "just don't come if you don't like it "is to not address what has
become an issue for, from what I can see on this newsgroup, a lot of people.
-Terri
Ltn Mundy
This whole argument roots from one basic question. Where are our priorities?
Is educating the kids the most important thing, or is advancing our "art"? Do
we judge the success of a show by how many fans appreciate and are moved by the
show, or by how many of them we confuse and disorient?
Many of the strange things that seem to make so little sense are motivated by
a desire to "push the envelope". This is ridiculous for two reasons: 1) We can
no longer define the evelope. We don't understand our own activity. If we don't
understand it, how can we hope to produce effective shows from them? Of all the
activities in question, drum corps, indoor drum lines, and winter guards, only
winter guards have something close to a clear idea of what their activity is
about. Drum corps is spinning out of control, trying to decide what it wants to
be, and indoor drum line is an activity being torn apart in it's infancy (most
clearly evidenced by the rivalry b/w WGI and PASIC lines). 2)We have pushed,
shoved, and in some cases torn, the envelope so badly, that in many cases it is
no longer recognizable. We are diversifying ourselves to death.
Drum corps, as an activity, needs to decide what elements and tools work,
which ones don't, and make use of them accordingly. I have said it more times
than I care to count, change for the sake of change is dangerous. Designers are
so concerned about whether or not they *can* do things, that they do not stop
to consider if they *should*.
Alan
James Christian
mda...@ets.org wrote:
>By suggesting music performance judges are
> swayed by visual effect is to undermine those judges' credibility.Agreed!
Well, do they have credibility?
> If it boils down to kids of the 1990's experiencing greater levels of
> recognition and audience appreciation by doing theatre and ballet, I'm all
for
> it.
>Absolutely agree here too.
Just so they can "feel good" without accomplishing anything?
We basically agree here. Think of the changes in DC from 1950 to 1970, and
then look at the chages from 1970 to 1990. It's ALWAYS been an activity of
change.
1950's to 1970's - Corps kept getting better. They began playing harder stuff. They were more exciting. There was a high level of skill involved. Amazingly, it became a bigger activity.
1970's to 1980's - Up till the early eighties, corps kept playing harder stuff and getting better. Again, the activity kept growing.
mid 80's to present - Corps began executing things worse. They started playing less difficult parts. The level of skill diminished. Guard members began running around the field and prancing and bringing out ladders instead of doing a bunch of equipment work. Drum lines started having 2 to 5 minute tacet sections throughout their shows. There are now less corps and lesser audiences.
James Christian
Not all musical performances are "watered down by better props," etc. Surely
one should have respect for what the Cadets were doing in '95 and '96.
The term "ramming notes" comes to mind - with both brass and percussion elements.
Perhaps there were too many notes there to be ultimately clean.
Crown '96: the corps probably would not have been in finals without their show
concept.
They had very young kids (average age of the horn line was 17) which,
while extremely hard working, had not yet developed to the ability level of
those in other corps of the top twelve.
Meanwhile, audience members throughoutYes way. There horn line was very sloppy, and their drum line barely played anything, much less as a line. Having two snare drummers run out from behind a giant bishop and play a buzz roll is not helping to educate those kids. The members of Carolina Crown in '96 were just pawns in the visual designers' chess game.
the summer were intrigued by SEEING something new and different, and Crown made
a memorable impression to the ticket buyers. Did the staff sacrifice offering
a quality musical education to its members in favor of some "spectacular"
visual program? No way.
They simply did what they could to offer each memberBut they didn't teach the kids how to play.
a taste of success (in whatever form - my definition appears below).
Many say that "if only all corps could be like the Madison Scouts, DCI would
thrive again." I don't necessarily disagree with this, but even Madison has
musical execution problems brought about by visual design. I dare say Madison
has the cleanest drum line out there. Even Madison uses theatrical and ballet
elements to further the accessibility of their shows. Even Madison uses props
from time to time. Granted, the exclusion of their visual elements would still
produce an exciting product, but that corps is blessed with a phenomenal talent
base which most other corps simply cannot attain.
In my opinion, there is a much greater cross section of a DCI or indoor
percussion audience who don't know the difference between a "pretty clean"
snare lick and a "HOT-DAMN! THAT LINE'S FULL OF KEN MAZURS!" snare lick.
Obviously, we need to cater to what thrills the masses. I AM NOT suggesting
that we forget completely about a dedication to exemplary technique; the "art
of the attempt" and the "excellence of execution" can coalesce to form an even
more amazing activity, and one which will ensure the continued patronage of the
AVERAGE audience member. I would assume that's what the Cadets - and even
Madison - have been trying to do.
At one time, the coolest thing imagineable would be to go to an outdoor Sousa
concert. Not any more. No longer do the masses get all giddy over a chamber
performance of King Ludwig's court players, showing off the latest Renaissance
masterpiece of Heinrich Schutz. We go to movies instead of a Shakespeare
performance. (Regardless, there are still a select FEW who appreciate a
tasteful performance of "Taming of the Shrew". There is still a theatre-going
audience, albeit a dramatically smaller percentage than that of Elizabethan
England.) These mediums gave ways to bigger and better things, and did so by
supply and demand. Some say drum corps is experiencing the same fate. We must
acknowledge the fact that people can get blown away by spending 6 bucks to see
Titanic. They can spend 20 bucks and buy the video, and watch it over and over
again in the comfort of their own home, as opposed to spending 20 bucks (at
least) to travel to a drum corps show and see the same-old same old. There are
new and exciting mediums of entertainment, considering that the art of
attracting an audience (and dollars) evolves and has evolved since the
beginning of civilization. If all drum corps had the talent to thrill an
audience like Madison Scouts,
we might not be having be having this
converstation; fact is, they don't, and they must use alternative means to do
so. Unfortunately, DCI rules and regs severely limit the "alternative means."
This entertainment-based society we live in likes newer and bigger and better.
As it stands right now, we can't offer that.
Drum corps sounds the same to those not able to pick out the finer points of flam technique.
There are many
who like theater on the drum corps field.
<<Maybe I am missing the point here (and I am sure Mr. Mazur will correct me
if I am wrong), but why is the visual design in DCI and WGI becoming the
deciding factor over musical and visual performance. Yes performance, NOT
design and pretty sets and props? Why are we sacrificing the music to
become ballet, stomp and modern design showcases? I always thought the
point of our performance medium was to teach musical performance and
technique.>>
I always thought it was to entertain a crowd watching a "marching" drum and
bugle corps. Drum corps is loud, and in the early days (according to the
recordings I've heard), at least in reference to brass technique, individual
and ensemble sound quality and intonation were second to sheer volume. We are
still attempting to overcome the prejudice of high school and university music
educators who wince at the thought of their students marching in a drum and
bugle corps, telling them things like "corps will destroy your chops," or
"corps will desensitize your musicianship." Thank goodness we can now yield
similar results in volume while instilling the art of impeccable individual and
ensemble performance.
It's easy to be clean when you're not playing anything.
<<These are valuable life skills. When was the last time anyoneExactly. When WAS the last time a ballet dancer danced with a tenor drum? So why is the tenor player trying to do ballet?
outside the activity ever used a jazz run, or a tumbling pirouette with a
tenor drum?>>When was the last time someone outside the activity used a marching tenor drum?
I am merely pointing out that, by definition, the drum corps activity - or indoor percussion activity, for that
matter - involves moving, or "marching."
<<Do the fans ask for their money back when the corps are forced (by
weather) to do standstill performances on tour? Take it one step further,
reassign the points and judge the show without visuals. The results might
open some eyes about how much Visual has overtaken the activity.>>Perhaps it may. I just don't understand how a field music judge would be
swayed by visual elements. If you are saying that a corps with a demanding
visual program cannot perform musically as well as a corps with an easy visual
program while on the move due to the fact that, perhaps, the first corps would
spend more time rehearsing visual elements, then the results would be the same
whether they are moving or not. By suggesting music performance judges are
swayed by visual effect is to undermine those judges' credibility.
So they're not? Of course they are. And if they are, they have no credibility.
Sure, thereThere's no criteria for G.E. Some people award points for props and acting out parts, thinking that produced a great effect. It should be based on the effect of how and what you play.
are a few idiots who will assess outside their caption, but for the most part,
my experience has been that adjudicators are, for the most part, professional
and credible with respect to the performance sheets. Don't get me started
about general effect adjudication...
<<We used to have standstills in the 'old days'. They were damn fine shows.
Imagine a standstill performance during Finals week, removing visual from
the equation. You might even have a Div II/III corps in the top 12, imagine
that. You certainly would have an equalizer by removing the 'art' of visual
from the performance and rewarding the excellence of execution that a
standstill demands.>>
If I may, marching and playing demands an even higher level of excellence in
execution.
<<There is a place for theater and ballet, but I am not sure that place is in
the gymnasiums of WGI, or on the football fields of DCI.>>
If it boils down to kids of the 1990's experiencing greater levels of
recognition and audience appreciation by doing theatre and ballet, I'm all for it.
Why have recognition without deserving it? The parents will, of course, be supportive, but the student is not getting anything out of it. And you won't have audience appreciation until they do something that the audience can appreciate.
I hope my ideas of change are proven wrong one day - that means the activity,
as it stands, has the capability to thrive.