Shostakovich. Romantic or Modern?
princ...@my-deja.com
was right on target. Most people consider the Romantic period to end
with Puccini's death and the Modern period to begin with his death. The
problem with that- is Richard Strauss! I hardly consider his works to
be Modern, but Romantic. Shostakovich and Prokofiev were writting at
the same time Strauss was- although he started earlier. I don't
consider the works of Shostakovich or Prokofiev to be Romantic, but more
modern- good modern. I hate the direction classical music, especially
opera, has taken as of late. Shostakovich's awesome opera "Lady Macbeth
of Mtsenk" was too modern for me on first listen, but now it ranks as
one of my favorites. I consider Shostakovich and Prokofiev to be modern
by period definitions- but their works are entertaining- something
modern lacks.
As far as Phantom Regiment goes- I have developed a program for them:
THE CELEBRATED TYRANT
- Cantata on the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution - Prokofiev
- Prosper, Our Mighty Country - Prokofiev
- A Toast (In Honour of Stalin, on His 60th Birthday)
Haven't heard this works which are just now surfacing in the west- do
so! They are absolutely incredible and have Phantom written all over
them.
Cantata on the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution is miraculous
and was too difficult to play in the 1930's, so it wasn't until the 50th
anniversary that this piece was heard!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Thomas Bella
and music don't have definite starts and stops... they progress and change
slowly. That's why early "modern music" sounds so romantic... because it
still is. Shost. five is a good example of that... it has a mahler sence to
it DOn't you agree?
Tdog
Golden LAncers 95-97
<princ...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ei8ca$7tv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Nikk Pilato
> and music don't have definite starts and stops... they progress and change
> slowly. That's why early "modern music" sounds so romantic... because it
> still is. Shost. five is a good example of that... it has a mahler sence to
> it DOn't you agree?
Most of what you've written above is a good explanation. The
Romantic movement didn't start the minute Beethoven died, and the
Classical movement didn't start when Bach died...we just use those as
convenient events to place music in approximate niches.
However, to me, Shostakovich V does not sound romantic. There is
a huge development of form, that much is true, but I don't sense a
romantic feel here. Shostakovich was writing for his life, at this point.
After the "failure" of Lady McBeth (Pravda called him a traitor), he
decided to simplify things and write a formalistic but ultimately
uplifting symphony.
One of my favourite parts of the symphony is the last 3 minutes of
the 1st movement...it sounds like there is depression which is only
temporarily uplifted by the celeste, before the schizophrenic 2nd movement
comes along.
I love that symphony. Back in March of last year I posted this:
---------------------
Many of you know that the sense of smell is the one most closely
linked to memory. All you have to do is get a big whiff od diesel fumes
to start thinking "corps bus."
The sense of hearing is also linked to memory, although not as
much as the olfactory sense.
Last night I sat home alone, since my girlfriend was highly
contagious with some sort of stomach flu, and so I decided to make a quiet
evening out of it. I sat down to grade some of my students' papers, and I
put on some music. I chose the Shostakovich Symphony V since I had not
heard it in some time.
Talk about a sudden flood of memories. You see, during my rookie
year with Phantom, I used to fly from Fort Lauderdale to Chicago's O'Hare
Airfield every month...back then it used to only cost $160!!! (My how
times change!). The only downside to this was that my return flight from
Chicago would usually leave at 6 or 7 in the morning. This was all before
I had housing parents, since these were still just camps, and so I would
have to take the Rockford Shuttle to O'Hare after camps ended on Sundays,
which would usually put me in O'Hare at around 7 or 8PM....in other words,
I used to have to stay in the airport a good 12 hours waiting for my flight.
I remember one particular time vividly: It was my third camp
with Regiment, near the end of January. I got to O'Hare at 8PM or so, and
I went to the Circle Restaurant to get some grubb and lots of coffee. I
put most of my bags in lockers, but always carried my backpack. I was
always afraid of falling asleep for 2 reasons: 1. I didn't want to fall so
deeply asleep that I missed my flight, and 2. I didn't want someone
stealing my stuff.
By around midnight, most anyone who works at the airport has
already left for the night. And most flights have left by 1 AM. I would
wander around the deserted airport terminals from 1AM until people started
showing up around 5AM....talk about spooky and cool at the same time.
To be in O'Hare Airport, one of the largest int he world, ata
time when almost no one is around was amazing. I walked from terminal to
terminal and would sit down and read "The Bachman Books," while I listened
to the Shostakovich Five.
Last night, after the first entrance of the low strings, I found
myself totally frozen. I could not grade or even read the papers in front
of me, because I wasn't there...I was in O'Hare, wandering the lonely
deserted terminals, trying desperately to stay awake, and wishing for
daybreak so i could board the plane.
I know this makes it sound like an awful experience, but it
wasn't! That was one of the coolest nights in my life: I had that whole
damn airport to myself. For the entire length of that symphony, I sat
glued to the sofa, unable to do more than just lean back and relax while
my memory raced...I remembered things that I hadn't thought of since that
January of 1991...8 years ago! Man, when I actually write that down, it
seems so far away, but it *feels* like just last month.
Sorry for rambling...I know that many of you have had experiences
like this, and I would like to hear them. It was just such a powerful
feeling of deja-vu, I almost wished I could be there again.
---------------------
++
np
rsfc.nikknakks.net
read.the.damn.faq.newbies
"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper"
-T.S. Eliot
Matthew Smith
a Romantic composer. I agree that he exhibited many times the elements of
Romantic writing (such as in his 5th symphony). However, a close study of his
life and works reveals a clearly modern composer. Some examples are his Lady
Macbeth opera which in my opinion is one of the best operas ever written.
Also, his first 3 symphonies are very reminiscent of Weber and Stravinsky
almost. He even wrote a Nocturne for piano in which there was no key or even
time signature. DSCH was in every way on the "cutting edge" of composition
during his life.
==============================
Matthew Smith
Madison Scouts 98-99
Staff, Spirit of Atlanta 2000
May You Never Walk Alone
==============================
Chris Kilian
early 20th century in a specific musical time period lies in the fact that
people often associate "lush", grandiose music with Romantic composers like
Wagner. Undoubtedly, Shostakovich was a modern composer much like
Rachmaninov.
Chris Kilian
Bushwackers Drum and Bugle Corps
Drum Major
MacGuru
PRSop
Nikk Pilato
COLOSSUS of YORE!!! He stands astride the breach of greatness like some
mangy, SLAWBERRING DAWG of LEGEND, and all who would dare lay claim to his
title will PERISH in great WAVES of FOAMING DROOL...
bush...@hotmail.com
Really though- I don't see much of a point in over classifing music
other than for the purpose of reference. Ideas in music are more
evolutionary than revolutionary (although I have a feeling that many
contemporary composers would argue the opposite). Just as we see
"romantic" elements in Beethoven and "Classical" elements in Brahms it
is reasonable to expect to see "Romantic" elements in early "modern"
music or see "modern" elements begin to show up in late "romantic"
music.
And since I'm obsessed with John Williams... here you have a
contemporary composer who writes film scores heavily influenced by
Wagner in form, Holst in orchestration (heavy emphasis on brass), and
with a dose of Bartok's flair for unusual melodic lines that aren't all
that melodic. definately a difficult one to classify- let's call him
contemporary-neo-classical-wagnerian-demi-romantic-post-modernistic for
lack of a better term :)
This is all just my opinion, I have no degree in music history, just a
big mouth.
In article <B53BE943.1F0B%mac...@crosswinds.net>,
MacGuru <mac...@crosswinds.net> wrote:
> How did we get on this big Shostakovich kick anyway???
>
> PRSop
Jenni09
experimental for their times. Look at Debussy, his works were Romantic
in some ways but then they also seemed to qualities that were against
Romanticism. He wrote vague harmonies and the tonality was somewhat
clouded. He was definately a border-line composer.
That is the interesting thing about composers. They wanted to
experiment with new ideas but sometimes you had to keep the sound that
people wanted in order to be listened to.
Even Beethoven is a well known composer that crosses through a period.
His roots were classical but he stretched classical ideas to their
limits.
It's really neat to listen music from various time periods because you
see a certain style they are aiming for. I enjoy listening to
classical music. I don't have a favorite time period but I know
Debussy is one of my favorite composers.
I think I've written a little too much....I guess that's why I'm a
music education student....
Peace-Jenni :o)
--
"Well, that's what I am. Just a little talented at a lot of things."
MacGuru
I don't know why.. we're playing Stravinsky.
PRSop
Nikk Pilato
> I don't know why.. we're playing Stravinsky.
But we are known for playing Shostakovich.
barelytone27
wrote:
>Must've been those Phantom Regiment guys who brought up
Shosty... :)
>
musicologist:
The intent of the composer should be mentioned as well. John
Williams writes really trippy, versatile charts when writing,
say, "Duel of the Fates" because Phantom Menace was that kind of
movie. When the situation calls for it, Williams can also write
Americana of the sort to revive Aaron Copland from the dead
(see: JFK, Born on the 4th of July, etc). By the same token, it
can be said that Shostakovich wrote Romantic-style music (for
lack of a better current term) because he was a paid employee of
the Soviet government and that's what they wanted to hear. There
has been an enormous amount of writing on this topic over the
years (Shosty's relationship with the Soviet regime) and I think
it adds some insight as to why his music sounds like it does.
Viewed with that in mind, the 5th symphony finale has a
different aspect. "....you want a triumphal march to end the
piece? fine, here's your f___ing triumphal march,
motherf___ers...". Much more angry and oppressed than
triumphant, I think. That kind of repressed, high-strung emotion
runs through a lot of his music; pretty neat, considering who
was writing his checks.
Just my 2 cents.
peace
jhr
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
CRBPCB
can be said that Shostakovich wrote Romantic-style music (for
lack of a better current term) because he was a paid employee of
the Soviet government and that's what they wanted to hear. There
has been an enormous amount of writing on this topic over the
For the record, few musicians I know would call Shostakovich "Romantic." He was
absolutely unique.
Before he attracted Stalin's attention (with Lady Macbeth), his music was
brilliant, witty, virtuosic (1st Symph, film and theatre music). After being
critically stomped on (at age 27) and having many friends and colleagues
"disappear," I can't help but hear him "looking over his shoulder" in all his
music, both the serious stuff (symphonies, quartets), and the patriotic
made-to-order stuff. A fascinating character and one of the very great
composers, IMHO.
Peter Bond
bush...@hotmail.com
Jon- you've supported my point well. Each composer is unique unto
himself. WHile it's possible to attach labels to the prevalent musical
trend of a time period, it's kind of impossible to point out a single
composer and jam him/her into the "classical" or "romantic" or "modern"
mold.
Clearly there were signifigant musical trends associtated with the
differing time periods, but I don't consider that a valid reason to
downplay the uniqueness of each individual composer. Tchaikovsky and
Wagner are far more different than they are alike as an example.
And since I'm obsessed with John Williams- yes, I'll agree that a
composer who's working on a comission is influenced by the purpose for
which he's hired. A piece written for a film about a giant killer shark
is going to be very different than a piece written for a neo-wagnerian
space opera (to coin a phrase).
And yes, I talk to much about topics I'm not qualified to talk about :)
V
barelytone27 <jonbari...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Still more gratuitous comment by yet another amateur
> musicologist:
> The intent of the composer should be mentioned as well. John
> Williams writes really trippy, versatile charts when writing,
> say, "Duel of the Fates" because Phantom Menace was that kind of
> movie. When the situation calls for it, Williams can also write
> Americana of the sort to revive Aaron Copland from the dead
> (see: JFK, Born on the 4th of July, etc). By the same token, it
> can be said that Shostakovich wrote Romantic-style music (for
> lack of a better current term) because he was a paid employee of
> the Soviet government and that's what they wanted to hear. There
> has been an enormous amount of writing on this topic over the
> years (Shosty's relationship with the Soviet regime) and I think
> it adds some insight as to why his music sounds like it does.
> Viewed with that in mind, the 5th symphony finale has a
> different aspect. "....you want a triumphal march to end the
> piece? fine, here's your f___ing triumphal march,
> motherf___ers...". Much more angry and oppressed than
> triumphant, I think. That kind of repressed, high-strung emotion
> runs through a lot of his music; pretty neat, considering who
> was writing his checks.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> peace
>
> jhr
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -
Free!
>
>
Nikk Pilato
> Jon- you've supported my point well. Each composer is unique unto
> himself. WHile it's possible to attach labels to the prevalent musical
> trend of a time period, it's kind of impossible to point out a single
> composer and jam him/her into the "classical" or "romantic" or "modern"
> mold.
Yes. Even the most "staunch" Romantic composer had moments of
classicism and even a baroque quality to them. These broad designations
are just how *we* classify them. The composers could care less about how
they were classified, they just composed...
> Clearly there were signifigant musical trends associtated with the
> differing time periods, but I don't consider that a valid reason to
> downplay the uniqueness of each individual composer. Tchaikovsky and
> Wagner are far more different than they are alike as an example.
Right on. Shostakovich and Rachmanninoff are Soviet composers
whose music sounds *very* different to me. Even closer to the point,
Copland and Gershwin. American, 20th century composers. Music is *very*
different.
> And since I'm obsessed with John Williams- yes, I'll agree that a
> composer who's working on a comission is influenced by the purpose for
> which he's hired. A piece written for a film about a giant killer shark
> is going to be very different than a piece written for a neo-wagnerian
> space opera (to coin a phrase).
John Williams is succesful, and one of my favourites, because he
knows the business, and knows how to pay homage to the Masters. Sure, you
can find hints of 20 different orchestral compositions in Star Wars alone,
not to mention his other film scores...but he weaves them in so well, we
don't mind. And he can be very original when not writing specifically for
film...the two Olympic Fanfares come to mind, as does the Bassoon Concert
and the Flute Concerto.
Chris Kilian
Chris Kilian
enjoyed writing "tone poem" type pieces. La Mer, for example. That piece
is about the sea in every possible way. Ravel was also an impressionist.
There are many other composers who wrote impressionistic music, but few made
it their musical voice.
Chris Kilian
Bushwackers
Drum Major
Nikk Pilato
> Debussy was an Impressionist
In fact, he was the father of the movement. But in his later years, he
got away from impressionism and dabbled a bit in exoticism and more
"modern" tone concepts.
Nikk Pilato
tone poems, but remember that the tone poem itself is not really a part of
the impressionistic genre. I associate tone poems more with Franz Liszt
and Richard Strauss than with the Impressionists.
As far as I know, the impressionists didn't last too long on the
musical scene. The main character of course, was Debussy. Ravel started
down that path, but he turned away from impressionism and reverted to his
use of clean forms...at heart, Ravel was a classicist, and might have been
very comfortable among the like of Haydn and Mozart. And let's remember
that in *many* of Debussy's pieces (like "Claire de Lune") there is no
trace of impressionism (although to the untrained ear, this will seem
wrong).
As an art form, impressionism is really mostly French. They liked
that style. Couple of others: Dukas (he wrote Sorcerer's Apprentice,
which many will recognize as being the main piece in Fantasia), and
Chabrier (who wrote Espana).
But at least two non-Frenchies that I can think of also dabbled in
impressionism, one of which should be very familiar to corps fans:
Frederick Delius (England) and Ottorino Respighi (Italy). Hell,
most of Pines of Rome can be considered impressionistic. It may not have
lasted ong as an art form in music, but it sure produced some great tunes
and influenced everyone that came after.
bush...@hotmail.com
WOuld you consider Scriabin an Impressionist?
In article <Ok7S4.57519$WF.31...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Chris Kilian" <TheDru...@att.net> wrote:
> Impressionists were those composers around the turn of the century who
> enjoyed writing "tone poem" type pieces. La Mer, for example. That
piece
> is about the sea in every possible way. Ravel was also an
impressionist.
> There are many other composers who wrote impressionistic music, but
few made
> it their musical voice.
>
> Chris Kilian
> Bushwackers
> Drum Major
>
>
Nikk Pilato
> WOuld you consider Scriabin an Impressionist?
Skryabin is one of those composers that really has no set "style" but his
own. He was influenced by the chromaticism used by Wagner and Liszt, and
he was influenced by impressionism, but his harmonies (very weird and very
complex) are truly unique. It was just a step short of atonality. He
didn't use triadic chords, his chords were based on 4ths, 6ths, and 7ths.
Truly an original, he was a bit kooky, so maybe we can call his movement
insaneism... :)
This is all bringing out the music professor in me! :)
Chris Kilian
bush...@hotmail.com
C'mon Chris, you know I dont *always* babble like an idiot. A former
drill tech I marched under once said "an educated man should be able to
give a 10 minute dissertation on any topic, and hold an intelligent
conversation on just about anything"
Vin
In article <mxfS4.57881$WF.32...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Chris Kilian" <TheDru...@att.net> wrote:
> Hooray for being able to talk all intelligent like. lol
>
>
barelytone27
Dances" right now)..........I don't care what genre you put him
in, this is really peaceful. Sublime, almost.
Chris Kilian
an intelligent topic going on on RAMD. Hooray for that.
Chris Kilian
Drum Major
Bushwackers
vesposito
a debate about shostakovitch into a general musicology
discussion-
Let's talk Wagner.
In a sense Wagner seems to have a heavy influence in the area of
"show coordination" seen in modern drumcorps.
He was the first composer to really integrate music and a visual
presentation with his concept of "gesundkunstwerk" or "total work
of art" in his operas. Take "the Ring" for instance. He Not only
worte the score but designed the visual portion of the operatic
series as well. Sets, costumes, coregraphy, all that good stuff.
This directly relates to the job of a show coordinator, who must
see to the seamless integration of a show's musical package with
drill, and with the guard program. A show coordinator must do
what Wagner did and ask "does this drill sequence and choice of
guard equipment fit and enhance the effect of the music" also "do
the uniforms and colors presented fit the overall concept."
Issues like program flow and lining up effects are considered.
The design aspect of a show is often closer to that of an
opera/musical than most people seem to realize. Wagner really
took the job of integrating and coordinating the different
components of an operatic presentation to a higher degree than
seen before.
Personally, the past few years I think SCV has probably had the
best coordinated shows- which is probably a large part of their
recent competetive success. The same holds true for thier last
run as perennial contenders in the late 80s- 1987 definately
comes to mind.
Vinny Esposito
Bushwackers 97-
Nikk Pilato
> Let's talk Wagner.
Ok. According to an old college professor of mine, there were only three
periods in music history:
Pre-Wagner
Wagner
Post-Wagner.
Chris Kilian
90s. If anyone can confirm or deny this, let me know
Vermicious Indeed
Chris Kilian
bush...@hotmail.com
Rumor has it that Phantom's show coordinator in '97 channeled the spirit
of Wagner for ideas :)
In article <2XqW4.334$hL1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
bush...@hotmail.com
I wonder who your Prof's favorite composer was...
I've heard the same applied to Beethoven as well. After all, he was a
major influence towards breaking from standard forms- which set the tone
for the progress of the "romantic" period- and the even more drastic
breaks later in the "modern" period.
You can always tell the great ones, their works have effects that still
reach from the past to today.
In article <8g1qsa$dhg$2...@news.fsu.edu>,
pet...@mindspring.com
In his youth, he reportedly played clarinet in the Bergenfield High
School band and did produce several movies in his career; i don't
believe he was ever involved with Drum Corps..
(just kidding).......
"Chris Kilian" <TheDru...@att.net> wrote in message
news:2XqW4.334$hL1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...