fact: DCI is gay; but WHY?
bradrick
> My question to the origonal writer of this thread is, what is your point?
>
> Is this a problem? Do truley creative,and entertaining drum corps
> productions bother you? Do you think our kids are never going to meet a
> gay person in the "real world"? of course we were there to
> see drum corps,not judge individuals. All I know is drum corps is an
> activity for people who love music,and performance,persicion,and
> competition, and if they happen to be red,white,blue,streight,or gay I
> could care less as long as the activity stays around long enough for my
> kids to gain from the whole drum corps experience.
May the heavens bless you and echo every word you speak.
Well I once heard it put this way --- "Denial is not just a river in
Egypt!"
The drum corps activity has been blessed and continues to be blessed and
influenced by the genius of many gay and lesbian people. It's part of
what has made up some of the shows you love to watch, listen to and talk
about over and over. Some of your favorite shows! Believe it!
It would be a travesty (particularly in the shadow of AIDS and the way
it has ravaged Alumni and staff alike) to disregard, discount or
question the validity of this integral, INTEGRAL part of an activity you
hold so dear and admired. Part of your world. Lets face it!
The talent of many gays and lesbians have been (maybe somewhat hidden to
those with their eyes half open) and continue to be a powerful presense
in the Drum Corps and Winter Guard genre. Don't think for a second that
you wouldn't notice overnight their absence. And don't think you
haven't felt the affect of the loss of some of our most talented and
respected already.
Brad Faidley
Sky Ryders (of Kansas) 1987 - Contra Bass
Sky Ryders (of Kansas) 1988 - Contra Bass
SCV A Corps 1989 (Wheheew!) - Contra Bass
SCV A Corps 1990 - Contra Bass
Sky Ryders (of Texas) 1991 - Marching and Maneuvering Tech
Internet address: brad...@dallas.net
HFMoon
I never really noticed it(of course, that could be because I was born and
raised in Los Angeles County not too far from Hollywood, and I'm
heterosexual). I guess I could say that I've met more efeminite people in
Drum Corps, I think, but then again, I've met a couple of people who were
quite efeminite and yet NOT gay...
Richard, Euph
"You can't fight evil with a macaroni duck!!!"
-Arthur
Me
If you think DCI is gay, try WGI. It's on fire!
ChaCha
I don't think you can just say DCI or WGI is gay...ooh, what a scandal.
Have you ever given thought to any arts program....or even Hollywood?
Trust me they are not all June & Ward Cleaver. But as one smart women
Jo the Mom mentions.....the wonderful thing about drum corps is
unconditional acceptance...you are judged on your talents, not color,
race, religion, economic background or at the very least sexual
preference. All of these things have nothing to do with the persons
skills or abilities.
I have been married for 5+ years and I have a mixed crowd of
friends...all have made my life richer and who have taught me tolerance
for all.
Cha Cha
Arlene Hewson
Why are there so many "Gay's" in Drum Corps? Well this is my theory.
It is alot like Theater. I grew up around theater and drum corps and
they are very much a like. Both select a show, rehersals follow,
creativity is everywhere, and creativity is something that most gay
people I know are strong in. I wounder if this question would come up if
drum corps had stayed less creative and more military?
My question to the origonal writer of this thread is, what is your point?
Is this a problem? Do truley creative,and entertaining drum corps
productions bother you? Do you think our kids are never going to meet a
gay person in the "real world"? I think you may have seen alot of Gay's
becouse you were looking for them, yes some of the guard members are very
much "standouts", but I have taken my children to drum corps shows and we
have not noticed anything like you described,of course we were there to
Hugh J. Vosti
On 22 Jul 1996, Arlene Hewson wrote:
> Why are there so many "Gay's" in Drum Corps? Well this is my theory.
....snip....
I thank you for being the first person to even attempt to
answer the question I was asking.
> creativity is everywhere, and creativity is something that most gay
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> people I know are strong in. I wounder if this question would come up if
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mean like blacks and basketball? If that's not just a
rediculous generalization, it still just restates the situation
and doesn't address the WHY part.
> My question to the origonal writer of this thread is, what is your point?
I was asking a *question*. Your response only went on to
confirm how wierd this subject is treated -- mostly third
person accounts of how my kids know some great gays and
drum corps doesn't care who you are. Sexuality has nothing
to do with the activity. That's where people have their
eyes closed ... It's actually part of the shows. When you
see couples dancing and all kinds of focus on 'love' themes,
what is being implicitly celebrated. I was asking the
question because it seems eerie that for an activity that
seems very gay, and in a medium as open as the internet,
you still never get matter-of-fact threads about actual gay
people (that would parallel the many 'straight' topics like
"Our drum line is really tight and put Joe-Bob in his place
for trying to move Cindy so his girlfriend could have her
bus seat"). The platitudes about everyone being accepted
fall flat. If your supposedly hetero kids really turned
out gay, the tears would flow right? It just seems more
consistent to put it all out in the open and try and find
out why it makes us so uncomfortable that it's always OK
for those gay people to be in corps and share their special
creativity with everyone, but thank God it's not too close
to home (fingers crossed).
Hugh J. Vosti
On 22 Jul 1996, John A. Kilpatrick wrote:
> Allow me to just point out that first off you can't be sure the people you
> saw were gay. To just look at someone and think they're gay is not right -
Of course it's all a mixed-bag, very few things are 100%. But yes,
you can identify *some* blacks by their voice on the phone. And
yes, using all kind of indications + common sense + intuition you
can guess *some* gay people pretty accurately. As hard as it
might be to believe, we don't all discover each other in gay
bars, AIDS organizations, or ACT-UP rallies. Everyone knows that
there are macho and nellie gays. Everyone knows that an effeminate
man might say he's straight, yet really by gay. Everyone knows
that when there's a knock on your door, and what follows is a
lecture about walking with the Lord like them, that person might
not be the Christian they label themselves as, but actually
a deceived disciple of Satan. I don't throw all my common
sense out the window just because I have to make imperfect
judgement calls every day. I only mentioned the people I had
either talked to or overheard and confirmed were gay. Of course
there were many, many, many others I didn't bring up. My
experience at DATR was that there are a higher percentage of
gay people in drum corps than the general public. Do you
disagree with that?
> As they saying goes, "Don't assume I'm straight, don't assume I'm not."
How many guys before they ask a girl out on a date ask if she's
a lesbian first? In the general public people are definitely
assumed straight. And if they make any kind of statement that
might be construed as pro-gay, they frequently have to add that
"...oh, by the way, I'm straight". It can be very subtle and
people get very angry if you challenge that. In my opinion,
most people are racist *to some degree* despite what they say
(hello, including me). I trust someone more who is at least
aware of this over someone who insists that they are totally
non-judgemental. Or someone who claims they're "just doing
the best they can" (hello, the best you can = being PERFECT
(in your imperfections). Because at that moment how could you
possibly do better than 'THE BEST you can'?)
If anyone actually read my questions in the original post,
you can see that now people are actually commenting about
comments about comments about some fictional bigot who was
never ever even in this discussion.
I never even bother to read threads titled "Make $$$ NOW!!".
I skip it instantly. I don't bother bringing the post up,
reading it, and then responding "Stop this discussion now!
We could care less <sic> about your views!" That would be
a waste of my time. BTW I'm not referring to the guy quoted
above, but others.
bradrick
Hugh J. Vosti wrote:
So it seems like
> such a gay activity as drum corps would be more matter-of-fact
> about the issue than other cross sections of society. But all
> the super-charged responses suggest otherwise. I'm sure there
> are people with all kinds of speculative theories (which are
> what I would love to hear) to answer my question. But who
> wants to bother when you just get beat down?
OK, Hugh.
I just had this discussion with a few of my friends and I will attempt
to address it and not beat you down. You have asked some valid
questions.
If we look at the drum corps genre and examine it's lifespan, it occurs
in seasons. Kinda like a garden that can only grow during the spring
(or summer in this case). This activity is dependent on a certain
percentage of influx of new people every year. Granted this varies from
corps to corps and from year to year but every corps starts the process
over again the day after world championships.
Now, who are they going to get as new members? They will get young
people from all walks of life, the high and sometimes the low of the
demographic boundary, from all over the country and sometimes the world.
And with them these young people typically, but not always need, the
support of their parents to make this drum corps dream a reality.
Parents from all walks of life, all sides of the opinion fence etc.
The world we live in has taken the stance that any form of a homosexual
is a bad homosexual. (This is a generalization mind you, a vast
generalization but a pervasive attitude... I'm sure you'll agree) It's
preached from pulpits, it's echoed by our politicians, it's seen in laws
being enacted using tax payer dollars - the shopping list goes on and
on. I'm sure for every example of homophobia I can name, you can name
one.
Ok, so then I bring us back to the dilemma of filling a corps with 128
seeds to bring to full bloom and make part of not only just a creative
venture (which lets face it is often THE focus) but to instill them with
pride for the activity and a sense of greater accomplishment and
camaraderie and all of the clichés that are still true no matter how
cliché`.
It would make it quite a challenge indeed to create a piece of art if
potential new members heard things about a particular corps or staff
etc. and chose to stay away based purely on their fear (use your own
word here if you don’t like the word “fear”) Corps can't exactly say to
the potential members and their parents either face to face or by what
they hear about a particular corps or staff etc. "We have some
homosexuals but please don't let that affect your judgment in joining
us." That would be empowering the homophobia itself. Another point here
is the fact that kids might be driven away at the end of a season if
they feel threatened be the overt presence of gays in their corps. I've
witnessed confrontations between horn-line and colorguard members I feel
were totally motivated by hate of gays. Another point is that in some
parts of the country, it would be extremely difficult for an out, gay
instructor to be very effective because the members would tend to
disrespect him or her. (Not a guarantee but a consideration for sure.)
Now I'm not going to say that it would scare every potential new member
away. It probably would attract some members. I'm sure it does.
Although I'm not sure if parents involved know that.
The final point to consider is: until people become more comfortable
with themselves and somehow stop feeling threatened, it's difficult for
them to address this issue openly and honestly. I think a lot of gays
are functioning as a sort of sub-culture in DCI. They don't talk openly
and honestly with the non-gay members and staff and share that side of
them like it was a normal part of their existence. It's the same thing
that happens in the "real world." I mean, we are proceeding on the
assumption that there are more than a handful of gays in DCI but look
how few responses you've gotten. And some of the responses have been
from straight people. Makes ya' think huh?
But all that said, drum corps has to function in today's world in
today's society. They have to accommodate lots of different types of
people with all different views and opinions on how the world should be,
and why people are the way they are. It would unfortunately be
destructive to be "out" to everybody all the time in any genre - work,
school, personal life and particularly youth activities.
Maybe that will change. But for now the wheels keep turning.
Bill Speakman
What in the hell does sexual orientation have to do with anything?
This is an activity chock full of wonderful peoeple--that's all that
matters. Your point (if indeed there is one in there somewhere) is
moot!!!!
John A. Kilpatrick
Allow me to just point out that first off you can't be sure the people you
saw were gay. To just look at someone and think they're gay is not right -
gay.
Also, there were people there, I'm sure, who you looked at and assumed were
straight, who weren't. It's not really something you can judge based on
external clues.
As they saying goes, "Don't assume I'm straight, don't assume I'm not."
--
**************John Andrew Kilpatrick*kilp...@cs.ucdavis.edu*******************
* "Tsuki ni kawatte...oshiokiyo!" | I do not speak for CS, UC Davis, or *
* Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon | anyone else. You have been warned. *
********************http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~kilpatri/*******************
Frank Jacobson
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.92.96072...@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu>,
hvo...@ecst.csuchico.edu says...
>
>
> <most newsreaders include a command which allows you to
painlessly
> skip this thread if the subject disturbs you>
>
> Self-check: Why do so many of us assume that saying "DCI is gay"
> is some kind of insult? Of course I've always figured there are
> plenty of gays in drum corps (participants, fans, staff, every-
> thing). But after attending DATR, I am *stunned*. This was the
> first large show I've ever been to, and if that's the typical
> mix, then let me tell you that drum corps attracts a *signifi-
> cantly* higher percentage of gays than the general public.
<Snipped for the sake of keeping this guy from getting totally
embarassed)
My, aren't you just a little homophobic? I marched for several years in
drumcorps...I'm not gay. I am married with kids! My brother marched
several years with the Cavies and Ambassadors. He's not gay..he is
married with childrens. Are their Gays in drumcorps! Of course! Good
for them! So, who cares? NOT ME!!!
Get a grip on reality....there is a large percentage of gays in the
general population, so I'd expect to see the same percentage in drum
corps! LIVE WITH IT!!!
Arlene Hewson
Why are there so many "Gay's" in Drum Corps? Well this is my theory.
they are very much a like. Both select a show, rehersals follow,
My question to the origonal writer of this thread is, what is your point?
Is this a problem? Do truley creative,and entertaining drum corps
Arlene Hewson
I guess you have the increadable talent for reading between lines that
are not even there. It seems you have some sort of fobia,not the few who
tryed to respond to your question. Are any of us supposed to really know
the actual reason why, and is it supposed to really matter? YES I have
real children who I hope grow up to be happy people,and don't even begin
to try and tell me how I have my fingers crossed about none of them
turning out gay. THAT statement is a stereotype in its self. OH Yeh,
becouse I am streight I am supposed to die a devistating death if one of
my kids turned out "god forbid" GAY! Take a real look at the world why
don't you, Even IF some people are saying accepting things what is so bad
about that?At least it is a giant leap into the present day. Drum
Corps,Theater, NBA (seen Dennis Rodman lately) just like any type of
activity they are micro-cosims of our great big world,and if you find it
in the real day-to-day world, then I guess you'll see it in Drum Corps
too,SO!?
Scott Iowa
Interesting conversation. I marched 9 years in drum corps and truthfully
met lots of gay people. The ONE thing that it did teach me is that gay
people are just like everyone else, it is just they have a different
sexual preference then I do. When I have kids I would hope that htey
would march in a corps because it is a great way to learn about all types
of people and not to be scared of someone because they are different then
what you may be.
Hugh J. Vosti
I appreciate all the different points of view and am totally
against censorship. So I guess I'll add another question to
my original one (in the header). If you ask a sincere question,
what motivates people to become threatened and ask essentially
"No one can answer such a question, how dare you ask it!"
Or "Who really cares about a persons private <hardly> activity?
You shouldn't care or be asking such questions!" Yes, I have
had many personal experiences of subtle and overt prejudice
and have yet to see any such 'open-minded' parents or peers
encourage or celebrate or joke about same-sex dating at anything
approaching the level it is done about heterosexuality (a la
the cliche about raging hormones, etc). So it seems like
such a gay activity as drum corps would be more matter-of-fact
about the issue than other cross sections of society. But all
the super-charged responses suggest otherwise. I'm sure there
are people with all kinds of speculative theories (which are
what I would love to hear) to answer my question. But who
wants to bother when you just get beat down?
(see header for all sig info)
laborman
On Jul 22, 1996 19:21:21 in article <Re: fact: DCI is gay; but WHY?>,
'Arlene Hewson <a...@teleport.com>' wrote:
>Why are there so many "Gay's" in Drum Corps? Well this is my theory. It is
alot
>like Theater. I grew up around theater and drum corps and they are very
much a
>like. Both select a show, rehersals follow, creativity is everywhere, and
>creativity is something that most gay people I know are strong in. I
wounder if
>this question would come up if drum corps had stayed less creative and
more
>military?
>
I couldnt find the original posting of this subject , but ill add my 2
cents worth, for what its worth. I agree with all the postings that asked,
Why the hell does it matter , etc etc etc. ALSO there are probably just
as many, if not more gays individuals in the stands watching these kids
perform there awesome shows then actually marching in the individual corps
themselves.
I attend 15 to 20 shows a year as well as worlds for the past 20 years.
If ive sat next to u, you wouldnt know that im gay.
If u were to asked me, id say yes im gay no problem there. Im not
closeted, to old for that bull crap anymore.
I was in the Army for 10 years, 3 in Nam. Guy next door type.
I see many gay pride flag stickers on many vehicles parked at drum corps
shows all the time. Just in case u dont know what it is, it the rainbow
type colored sticker that we display on our bumpers, windows etc.
So I guess my point is , just enjoy the show for what it is. And dont try
to seperate the gays from the straights. We are people
first,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, dont forget.
So if u have a problem with" DCI is gay statement", dont attend any more
shows. Chances are very good you have friends that are closeted and they
would be the last ones on earth ud expect to be gay.
I guess that was my $2.00 worth instead. :) !!
Paul R Wochnick
I felt the best way to reply to the gays in DCI thread is to not flame or
praise anyone here on ramd but to relate my own experience with gays in
drumcorps.
First of all, I should tell you a bit about my background. I am a
heterosexual catholic male from a Twin City suburb. Before my first
experience in drumcorps I had never met a gay person. I knew
homosexuality existed, but it was foreign to me as people half way across
the world. My first experience in drumcorps was Minnesota Brass from the
Twin Cities. I was still a senior in high school but I had made a spot
on the bassline. Throughout most of the winter season I practiced with
the drumline without even thinking that anyone in the corps was gay. The
only thing on my mind was how great it was to be a part of a drumcorps
(and that some of the women in the guard were really cute!).
When the summer season came upon us, and we were outside, one of my fellow
bass drummers and I were having a discussion about some of the male guard
members. This is when I first found out that there were gay members in
the corps. I was flabergasted by the thought. How could any guy want to
have sex with another guy?? ewehhh. At first I thought it couldn't
possibly be true. But alas, I was told indeed that it was true.
My first encounter with actually talking with a gay man came on one of
our road trips. The thing to do to pass the time on these road trips was
to play cards. I was taught a game called Oh Hell! which I could not
master. One of the guys who joined in the game was gay. I had no idea
what to expect from this person. Was he going to hit on me? aughh!!
What ended up happening came out of left field for me. He was actually
willing to help me learn the game better. He would advise me on cards I
should keep and which ones to throw away. Of course he would still kick
my butt; he was a very good card player. The whole time we were playing
I had never laughed so hard in my life. He was cracking jokes left and
right, but was still kind enough to help me.
As the season progressed I would have a number of experiences that are
still with me today. From performing for the first time in front of a
crowd to the hotel stay at DCA where we would have water fights until
3:00 AM. Another memory that still sticks with is the following: One
night, after practice, I saw my drumine section leader hug one of the gay
guard members. I knew that the hug between them was nothing sexual since
the drumline section leader had a serious relationship with a woman. It
was just something that good friends do.
The next three seasons I would spend with the Madison Scouts. I won't
pretend that right after my experience with MN Brass I was completely
comfortable with homosexuality. But through the time that I have spent
in drumcorps I have learned that gay people are like myself, human. I
also won't pretend to understand homosexuality (I still don't understand
why a man would want to have sex with another man :). But my inability
to understand is not the gay communities' problem
This letter is not intended to preach and to tell you what you should
believe. Take from my experience what you will.
I know that I have left lesbians out of this letter. But since I
did march the majority of my drumcorps career with an all-male corps,
you'll have to understand :)
--
Paul Wochnick | http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g470/
Madison Scouts | woch0001/Scouts.html
Bass'91,'92 |
Frontline '93 | University of Minnesota
Minnesota Brass | History Major
Bass '90,'94 | Emma Thompson fan :)
Michael Furey
Hugh J. Vosti (hvo...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
:
: Self-check: Why do so many of us assume that saying "DCI is gay"
: is some kind of insult? Of course I've always figured there are
: plenty of gays in drum corps (participants, fans, staff, every-
: thing). But after attending DATR, I am *stunned*. This was the
: first large show I've ever been to, and if that's the typical
: mix, then let me tell you that drum corps attracts a *signifi-
: cantly* higher percentage of gays than the general public.
I don't know how true your statement is. Yes, I'm gay. Yes, I've seen
other gays in corps as well as in the stands. I've also seen a whole lot
of heterosexuals in each place.
: If only half of what I saw and was told is true,
: why aren't DCI and its fans not only acknowledging the contri-
: butions of gays, but practically doing some kind of tribute?
Because most gay people, ideally would like to be in a situation where we
are neither shunned nor given tribute solely because of our sexual
orientation.
: To those who have said this shouldn't be discussed because it
: will endanger parental and other support of this youth activity,
: anyone who can't already see with their own eyes the heavy gay
: participation in DCI is doing some serious mental blocking.
: And how could someone like that rationalize supporting an
: activity that gay people apparently flock to?
I think it's perfectly alright to discuss the issue, though to ask "Why"
may be irrelevant. People march drum corps because, generally speaking,
the performance level is better than marching band. In most bands I've
been in, the gay men tend to predominate in the color guard and less so
in horn and drum lines (note: this IS a big generalization. I marched
soprano and mellophone in my time...) This holds true not only for DCI
but for a lot of bands I've performed in.
: Wouldn't either approving acknowledgment
: or OTOH condemnation and expulsion of who these people are
: be more honest than denial and silence?
In a word: no. People have spoken better to the fact that gays in DCI
are a non-issue. Drum corps is every bit as diverse as any other
organization, whether in regard to sexual orientation, or religion or, in
some corps anyway, color.
I happened to grow up in an average, middle class environment. Drum
corps was the first place I met other people who had feelings similar to
mine. In the same vein, it was the first place I came into more
than passing contact with people of color, since the schools I attended
happened to be all-white and all-closeted. I found both experiences
equally important.
Jay R Wise
Let's be careful of labeling!
In article <31F300...@dallas.net>, bradrick <brad...@dallas.net> wrote:
>> Is this a problem? Do truley creative,and entertaining drum corps
>> productions bother you?
Whic led to...
>The drum corps activity has been blessed and continues to be blessed and
>influenced by the genius of many gay and lesbian people. It's part of
>what has made up some of the shows you love to watch, listen to and talk
>about over and over. Some of your favorite shows! Believe it!
>
>Brad Faidley
>Internet address: brad...@dallas.net
I agree with Brad's whole argument, but need to follow-up on the quoted
sections, as it could be misconstrued that in order to be a creative
genius in drum corps one must be a certain type of person...
Someone said "why label people" and this could be construed as "labeling
people."
Perhaps it should be stated: "The drum corps activity has been blessed and
continues to be blessed and influenced by the genius of many people."
Genius is equal opportunity and ya either got it or ya don't, regardless of
sexual orientation, skin color, heighth, financial coffers, etc.
J.
Dhsflute
Gee, you know what? I went to the Dallas DCI program. You know what I
saw? Lots of incredibly talented musicians & color guard. On the field &
in the audience.
laborman
On Jul 23, 1996 12:23:47 in article <Re: fact: DCI is gay; but WHY?>,
'bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Richard M. Stuemke)' wrote:
>
>oh-oh!!!! some body is going to reap the wrath of Martha and Randy!!!!!!
>
>But, none the less, the entertainment industry (theatre, movies and drum
>corps) does seem to attract a preponderance of those who subscribe to the
gay
>lifestyle. The question is why? Quite simply that these art forms and the
>persons involved are much more tolerant of homosexuality than the persons
who
>work out in the coal mines or fields. Again you may ask why... well one
reason
>is that there are a lot of jewish persons involved in the entertainment
>industry. Now you ask, what in the world does that have to do with gays
in
>drum corps. I asked that question to several jewish persons and here is
the
>answer, which is quite amazing but understandable... becasue the Jews have
>suffered MUCHO persecution down through the ages, they collectively do not
want
>to be perceived as intolerant to ANYONE even homosexuals, and therefore
have
>adopted a very liberal attitude towards homosexuality. This attitude has
>created a haven for homosexuals because it provides a "safe" place to live
and
>work with out having to defend their lifestyles. When I was told this I
could
>not believe it, especially becasue the Jewish Bible and religious writings
are
>so specifically against homosexuality. But, none the less, it has been
>confirmed by several Jews to me. With that in mind, it is obvious that the
drum
>corps idiom is very much a part of the entertainment industry, although it
does
>not neccessarily have the "jewish" connection of NY theatre or Hollywood
>movies. SO why the large number of homosexuals? Again, because of the
very
>liberal attitude of the persons running the activity has created another
"safe
>haven" for those who are homosexual. A place where they can be accepted (
and I
>might add make some very wonderful creative contributions). I'm sure that
some
>of you will disagree with this, but this is firsthand information I myself
This is all we need now,, religion brought into this already "HOT" subject
matter. I cant even comment on your opinions in the upper half of your
letter because it makes about as much sense as u taking the time to post
it. Firsthand info ????? I was on the floor laughing, at such idiotic
statements. You take the comments of a few Jewish friends and come to a
world wide conclusion.
Your letter only proves that there you , my friend , may not be homophobic
, but that one can be just as prejudice and closed minded as the best of
them.
Good luck in life guy, you'll need it.
Ace PH
Just a few thoughts on this touchy thread.
1. DCI probably has a higher percentage of gay participants (members,
staff, etc.) than that which makes up the general population. So does the
rest of the entertainment business.
2. There are many drum corps "warhorses" out there who have a problem
with, e. g., effeminate male guard members. I disagree with these geezers,
but also have pity on them. They are frequently old, and most likely grew
up in an era very intolerant of gays. I say let's educate these people,
and not automatically hate them for their lack of
knowledge/experience/compassion.
3. I have never heard a reliable report of homosexual
molestation/recruiting in drum corps.
4. Why not just celebrate the diversity in drum corps?
5. Why are there, say, very few African-Americans in corps? Some reasons:
there is little funding in inner-city communities for such corps;
inner-city schools often have sub-standard music programs. I don't see a
hue and cry about this sad statement.
6. People still have a right to disapprove. Many straights just can't
understand the lifestyle. I get sh&t all the time from friends who
chastise me for spending so much time writing about and following the
activity on the whole, much less the gay community within it.
7. Homophobia is a dreadful wrong; so is rashly branding someone with this
appellation. Coexistence, I believe, is somewhere in the middle.
8. Try to embrace the superior quality and dedicated musicanship and
performance of today's corps. They play much harder material and simply
look and sound so much better than the "old time" corps, it's scary. Once
again, here's something to celebrate, and a good part of it is probably
due to gay members and staff.
Ace Holleran
Michael Clark
SUBJECT: Re: fact: DCI is gay; but WHY?
SUBJECT: Re: fact: DCI is gay; but WHY?
Gays in DCI?
I think it would be interesting to find a more inclusive topic. My
memories as an adolescent were that I had to embrace a certain "creative
deviancy" in order to be in drum corps.
When I was 11 years old my parents moved us from the inner city to the
suburbs. After trying some of the more traditional youth groups (sports
activities, boy scouts, etc.) I went to a rehearsal of an inner city drum
and bugle corps. I feel in love with the group ( Phila. Police Cadets,
l966-l973). The hook was the "esprit de corps". The fringe benefits
included access to a very diverse peer group as well as a work ethic that
said in effect "... if you work your butt off and put everything aside
when you practice/perform, you'll be OK".
However, being involved with drum corps required a certain committment to
being openly "deviant" to a mild degree within my suburban peer group. I
had to practice a lot in the summer, so I was never around. I had to
practice my soprano so that the neighborhood could hear. I was
reagularly leaving my neighborhood carrying my bugle and uniform.
No one in my neighborhood or school knew anything about drum corps (until
I recruited a few people). To most kids in the neighborhood, I must
have seemed "a little odd". To me, drum corps was my true avocation. I
was involved in high school band, debating, community service groups, etc.
, however, nothing could touch drum corps in terms of my passion/loyalty.
This mild "creative deviancy" (freely chosen, apprciated, valued), laid a
wonderful foundation for my future efforts in intergrating my gayness
into my life. Drum corps was something that was very public, yet at the
same time very private. I was fiercely loyal and intensely proud. I
also learned to not demand/expect those around me to really understand.
A point of connection for all of us is to recollect how we feel when a
drum corps is called a band. Or when some naive audience member says
something like "how, cute....they're twirling those little white guns".
I still want to slap/educate/lecture but most often smile and say to
myself "that's just the way it is". "Call us what you will but keep
coming to the shows".
I would like to have this discussion on gays broadened into a larger one
of drum corps members (past and present) experiences/choices/strategies
relating to the dissonance associated with being a drum corps member in a
largerly drum corps ignorant world. I think that this could have some
useful outcomes.
I believe that drum corps is one of the highest quality youth activities
available. Yet we know little about what attracts and keeps kids in
corps.
My personal two cents is that the drum corps activity needs to put more
emphasis on and give more support to smaller/local corps. It would be
really nice to see more people at division II/III contest (where that
"esprit de corps" is alive and well).
One more thing, while we're talking.... I do think that there are those
on RAMD who would restrict discussion to certain "acceptable"
topics/themes. It is not my place to try to tell you to stop trying to
shape the content/ themes of the discussions. However, for me, drum
corps is much more than scores, planar analysis, corps size, show reviews,
etc. Thank you, Hugh, for starting this thread.
Mike Clark
Christina Mavroudis
Good morning:
>When I have kids I would hope that they would march in a
>corps because it is a great way to learn about all types
>of people and not to be scared of someone because they
>are different then what you may be.
Drum corps does create a "we are the world" atmosphere
of brotherhood. I once made a little slip about one guy
liking another and felt bad about it not knowing if this was
public knowledge. My daughter shrugged and said, "Don't
worry. He's secure in his sexual orientation." This from a
13 year old. Yes - we can all learn from each other, even
our own children who are growing up freed from sociatal
limitations which closed out portions of our global community
in the past.
Ed Boxer
In article <4t2g8j$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Richard M. Stuemke) writes:
>But, none the less, the entertainment industry (theatre, movies and drum
>corps) does seem to attract a preponderance of those who subscribe to the
>gay lifestyle.
What planet are you coming from. Theatre and Movies don't have a
preponderance of ... gay(s). You must be refering only to the actors.
Well, there are plenty of gays working behind the scenes: directors,
choreographers, scenic designers, make-up, costumes, cameras, etc.
Ed "Boxer" Jones
Check out my castle at: www.is.co.za\foxx
Ed Boxer
Brilliantly stated. The fact the homosexuality is even discussed in such
a forum continues to be a miracle to me. The miracle is made even more
brilliant by Brad's comments below.
DCI is GAY because gays want to excel, to belong, to be in the forefront,
to be respected, to perform. To the naysayers, acknowlegement of their
existence is a major step forward in defeating homophobia.
In article <31F3B7...@dallas.net>, bradrick <brad...@dallas.net>
writes:
Carol J. Smith
Why? Simple.
Because they have taste.
E Lunde76
Hey Vic,
Don't forget the late & great George Zingalli! GREAT thread Vic
100% on the money! Now lets drop it & cheer on all the kids & corps gay or
not!!!
Eric Lunde
Jim Eiden
H E L L O ? ? ? ? ? ?
R E A L I T Y C H E C K ! ! ! ! !
I really think everyone should take a step back and re-read the original
post.
Hugh (the original poster), never mentioned anything homophobic, he never
said anything bad about it. All Hugh was trying to point out, was that
in his perception, he noticed a higher than normal population of gays at
drum corps shows.
All Hugh wants to know, is if anybody else has noticed it too. And why
do we think it's so.
Please stop putting words into his mouth, or condeming him for what you
think his opinions on homosexuality are. Reread his posting, he never
gave an opinion on it. All he did was ask a question about an
observation he had.
I'm just amazed how everyone has jumped to conclusions about his posting.
He never said if it was right or wrong. He was just asking a question if
other people had the same observations. Nothing more, nothing less.
R E R E A D H I S P O S T B E F O R E Y O U A I M Y O U R
F L A M I N G A R R O W S
(But I'm sure, there are going to be flames anyways)
Jim Eiden
Imperials
1980-1983
Richard M. Stuemke
oh-oh!!!! some body is going to reap the wrath of Martha and Randy!!!!!!
But, none the less, the entertainment industry (theatre, movies and drum
corps) does seem to attract a preponderance of those who subscribe to the
gay lifestyle. The question is why? Quite simply that these art forms and
the persons involved are much more tolerant of homosexuality than the
persons who work out in the coal mines or fields. Again you may ask why...
well one reason is that there are a lot of jewish persons involved in the
entertainment industry. Now you ask, what in the world does that have to
do with gays in drum corps. I asked that question to several jewish
persons and here is the answer, which is quite amazing but understandable...
becasue the Jews have suffered MUCHO persecution down through the ages,
they collectively do not want to be perceived as intolerant to ANYONE
even homosexuals, and therefore have adopted a very liberal attitude
towards homosexuality. This attitude has created a haven for homosexuals
because it provides a "safe" place to live and work with out having to
defend their lifestyles. When I was told this I could not believe it,
especially becasue the Jewish Bible and religious writings are so
specifically against homosexuality. But, none the less, it has been
confirmed by several Jews to me. With that in mind, it is obvious that the
drum corps idiom is very much a part of the entertainment industry,
although it does not neccessarily have the "jewish" connection of NY
theatre or Hollywood movies. SO why the large number of homosexuals?
Again, because of the very liberal attitude of the persons running the
activity has created another "safe haven" for those who are homosexual.
A place where they can be accepted ( and I might add make some very
wonderful creative contributions). I'm sure that some of you will
disagree with this, but this is firsthand information I myself received.
Another thing.....EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFE STYLE IS
>NOT< HOMOSPHOBIC......I get so tired of hearing this accusation.... I am
not homophobic... I do NOT fear homosexuals or their lifestyle....
I CONSIDER IT TO BE IMMORAL and SIN.....which are entirely different....
the homophobic label seems to be used as a scapegoat label used in order to
justify the homosexual position and/or focus the attention on the
opposing and so-called "intolerant" viewpoints.......
--
/////////////////
Rich Stuemke
laudate eum in clangore bucinae
Roger Binion
I think it is very presumptious and prejudicial to make assumptions about
a person's sexual orientation based soley on appearances. You say that
some of the guys were "obviously gay." That is as patently offensive as
you can get. Would you make the same assumption at a basketball game? A
hockey game? A concert? Like someone else asked, what was the point?
Gays and lesbians are everywhere and enjoy a variety of recreational
activities. To single out a DCI contest is absurd. Next time you are at
the grocery store, why don't you play "find the gays" since you seem to be
so good at it.
Robert Lee Delaney
Yeah! what he said. Why must we put labels on people? If people on
this board spent as much time working for the activity as it does
hashing over this old chestnut on RAMD, the future of drum corps would
NEVER be in doubt.
Bob D
Robert Lee Delaney
By the way:
I can't help but wonder how you arrived at the sweeping conclusion that
all these people surrounding you were gay? Did they proudly announce
it to everyone? Did they perform some intimate act in front of you?
Please take this in the spirit intended. You should really be careful
about branding people by looks and/or actions. If there is one thing I
have learned in almost two score years on this planet is that you can't
be quick to judge a person. The trite expression that looks are
deceiving doesn't go far enough. I can't tell you the number of people
whom I have known (mostly guys) who are sensitive and emotional and
(please pardon the expression) are somewhat effeminate that have been
branded as gay and are hetero, and the number of macho types that have
turned out to be gay.
So now may we PLEASE GIVE THE GAY ISSUE A REST? CHRIST!!!!!
Bob D
VCOLY
Do we really need to bring this political trash into the activity??????
Enjoy the activity!!!!!! Those who are wowing the crowds, gay or not,
deserve the support!!!! Heck, one of the greatest people ever involved in
the activity, Don Angelica, was gay. The thing is, he never boasted about
it, nor ever even "advertised" that he was. We can thank him for many
GREAT innovations that we today enjoy.
Cut the political garbage.... Heck, being a Christian, I'm not going to
run up to anyone and start quoting Scriptures trying to convert
people......
Vic Colaianni
o...@sdcc1.ucsd.edu
In article <4t2g8j$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Richard M. Stuemke) writes:
>
>especially becasue the Jewish Bible and religious writings are so
>specifically against homosexuality. But, none the less, it has been
>confirmed by several Jews to me. With that in mind, it is obvious that the
>drum corps idiom is very much a part of the entertainment industry,
>although it does not neccessarily have the "jewish" connection of NY
>theatre or Hollywood movies. SO why the large number of homosexuals?
>Again, because of the very liberal attitude of the persons running the
>activity has created another "safe haven" for those who are homosexual.
>A place where they can be accepted ( and I might add make some very
>wonderful creative contributions). I'm sure that some of you will
>disagree with this, but this is firsthand information I myself received.
>
>Another thing.....EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFE STYLE IS
>>NOT< HOMOSPHOBIC......I get so tired of hearing this accusation.... I am
>not homophobic... I do NOT fear homosexuals or their lifestyle....
>I CONSIDER IT TO BE IMMORAL and SIN.....which are entirely different....
>the homophobic label seems to be used as a scapegoat label used in order to
>justify the homosexual position and/or focus the attention on the
>opposing and so-called "intolerant" viewpoints.......
>--
> /////////////////
>
> Rich Stuemke
> laudate eum in clangore bucinae
Yikes-a-roni. I apologize because this is tangential to the thread, but
any effort to educate . . .
By "Jewish Bible" perhaps you might mean the Old Testament? And if so, and
what you're talking about is basically the same as the Old Testament of
Christianity, from which I assume you have developed your apparently strong
(CAPITALIZED) notions of the immorality and sin of homosexuality, does it
also follow that you have never eaten pork, and that maybe you might own a
slave or two (or are tolerant of those who do because it was common practice
and a-ok way back then)? Perhaps you are a polygamist?
My point is that it is wonderfully convenient to label homosexuality immoral
and a sin taken out of context from everything else written in the Bible. It
seems though, perhaps you should have another look at the Big Book
so you are not missing any other groups out there deserving of your
condemnation. I'll betcha you are . . . Homophobic or not, I wouldn't call
you much of a Christian (or whatever drives your sense of morality).
You missed the boat somewhere.
Greg L.
Go CBC!
Ed Boxer
In article <4t0ue5$3...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>,
labo...@usa.pipeline.com(laborman) writes:
>I couldnt find the original posting of this subject , but ill add my 2
>cents worth, for what its worth. I agree with all the postings that
asked,
>Why the hell does it matter , etc etc etc. ALSO there are probably just
>as many, if not more gays individuals in the stands watching these kids
>perform there awesome shows then actually marching in the individual
corps
>themselves.
It's very simple, acknowledgement of thier existence is important. Gay
role models and gay heroes are extremely important to the world's gay
youth. DCI has proved some of the best role models and heroes. That's
why it is important, valid and vital.
Paul Middleton
The strange being who goes by the name of Christina said:
>Good morning:
Mornin'
>Drum corps does create a "we are the world" atmosphere
>of brotherhood. I once made a little slip about one guy
>liking another and felt bad about it not knowing if this was
>public knowledge. My daughter shrugged and said, "Don't
>worry. He's secure in his sexual orientation." This from a
>13 year old. Yes - we can all learn from each other, even
>our own children who are growing up freed from sociatal
>limitations which closed out portions of our global community
>in the past.
I wish you were correct in saying that our children are growing
up in a more understanding society, but I fear that this only
applies to a limited number of kids.
It isn't hard to imagine what the racists and the homophobes
are teaching to their own children. I came across more than
one racist during my time in Corps, although in the main the
people I met were tolerant of all colours, creeds and sexualities.
I think that Drum Corps does encourage a more open and
understanding view on life, but a fully fledged bigoted Leopard
will never change his spots :(
In England we tend to be a little more hypocritical in our
views on race than, perhaps, the US. I wish I had a penny for
every time I've heard someone say "I'm not a racist but...".
I live in a town of approximately 250,000 people, and I wouldn't
think we had more than around 2000 non-whites. I still hear some
people use words like coon and nigger as a part of their everyday
vocabulary and, without trying to defend these people, I suspect
they use those words without thinking of the offence they cause.
It is purely because they have had no contact with anybody who isn't
white and therefore don't understand the significance of what they
are saying. It may sound odd to say that, but it is unfortunately
true.
In order to change the way the world will develop over the next few
decades, it will take a great deal more in the way of education before
we have a society in which we all feel comfortable.
--
Paul Middleton - http://www.u-net.com/~pieland
Build me a path from cradle to grave - Billy Bragg
TABOVER
DCI is gay???? Fact?????
That's a rather sweeping statement. How can you ignore all the wonderful,
talented and creative straight people involved?
Sharon
RANDYGAR
In article <4t2g8j$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Richard M. Stuemke) writes:
>oh-oh!!!! some body is going to reap the wrath of Martha and Randy!!!!!!
Yes, the dreaded Martha and Randy monsters. Actually I think you're
a masochist at heart and you already know that *you* are the somebody
who is going to reap the above-mentioned wrath. As I said to you last
time,
I think you suspect you might be gay, yourself, and you're still trying to
figure it out.
(snipped all the nonsense about Jews being "responsible" for gays in the
arts....Martha and her father answered this bigotry quite well.)
>I am not homophobic...
Yeah, right. You just happen to turn up on that side of the fence every
time
this discussion crops up on RAMD. By the way, the last time you & I
corresponded about this, you very clearly stated that it was going to be
your last post on this topic. That was 'way back in March. So why did
you feel compelled to jump into the fray again? Was it because of your
NEWSFLASH regarding "the Jewish connection"? Or are you still trying
to decide whether or not *you* have those wicked gay feelings?
>the homophobic label seems to be used in order to justify the homosexual
position >and/or focus the attention on the opposing and so-called
"intolerant" viewpoints....
Yes, you're right. It's like when we call a Nazi a Nazi... That way we
can
focus people's attention on an intolerant viewpoint. It's all a big
Homosexual/Jewish/
African-American/Asian plot. We all got together and decided that we're
just as human as everybody else, and that we're no longer going to
tolerate Nazi-style
attitudes towards us.
> /////////////////
>
> Rich Stuemke
> laudate eum in clangore bucinae
>
Randy Gardner
Richard M. Stuemke
laborman (labo...@usa.pipeline.com) writes:
>
>
>
> This is all we need now,, religion brought into this already "HOT" subject
> matter. I cant even comment on your opinions in the upper half of your
> letter because it makes about as much sense as u taking the time to post
> it. Firsthand info ????? I was on the floor laughing, at such idiotic
> statements. You take the comments of a few Jewish friends and come to a
> world wide conclusion.
> Your letter only proves that there you , my friend , may not be homophobic
> , but that one can be just as prejudice and closed minded as the best of
> them.
> Good luck in life guy, you'll need it.
>
Thank you for your thoughtful response. First of all these persons were
not necessarily friends and the discussion was based upon the extreme
liberal attitude of jewish persons, in general. Closed minded? Hardly,
my intent was to try to explore the situation and increase my knowledge
and understanding. Perhaps you should take time to reason things out a
little more before dissing someone so quickly. Yours is a closed minded
attitude, not mine.
--
Michael Furey
Hugh J. Vosti (hvo...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
<stuff snipped>
: experience at DATR was that there are a higher percentage of
: gay people in drum corps than the general public. Do you
: disagree with that?
Actually, I think I do disagree with that. I am gay. As it happenes, I
marched about 12 years ago with a tiny corps which was predominently
straight. I think there were 3 people with whom I marched (over various
timespans) who were either perceived to be gay or, in one case, who I
later found out to be gay.
In your original post, you used the black guard member in Madison '95 as
an example of how gays pervade the activity. I don't want to place an
unfair stereotype on Madison but it HAS been my experience that many men
who march in color guards tend to be gay. IF a larger than average
proportion of Madison (or Cavies) horn/drum lines happen to be gay,
perhaps it's because these are all-male corps. I'm not aware that those
corps have more gay performers (excluding guard) than average, however.
Perhaps the question (which I'm still not certain is relevant) should be
"Why are there so many gays in color guards?" Frankly, I'm a banker, not
a psychoanalyst, so I dunno. I will pass on even venturing a guess.
Are there more gays than "average" in the stands? At some shows and to a
certain degree, the answer is probably yes. I usually attend about 5
shows a year. I know there was a gay couple sitting directly behind my
two (gay) friends and I at one show. That's hardly scientific, and there
were many more people who were, presumably, heterosexual. Part of the
reason for this phenomenon, if indeed it is one, could be traced back to
disposable income.
The seats I usually purchase for shows tent to be in the "premium"
sections. Why? I like sitting near the 50 and while I'm not wealthy, I
can afford to shell out $25 to $50 for those seats. Were I married with
a few kids, my priorities would be different...feeding, clothing, and
educating them. Thank God that's not the case and I can go to Orlando
this year instead :-) The point is, and this is a bigtime
generalization based only on my personal experience, that my straight
friends tend not to devote the same amount to "entertainment" as my gay
friends and I do. Maybe more gays are in Broadway audiences as well.
--Mike
Blake
Everyone is writing these big dissertations, meanwhile it is very simple.
DCI attracts a lot of "gays" because of all those cute guys in the hornline who run around
shirtless all day. And those gang showers!
By the way, Contra players really are hung better than the rest of the corps.
Roger Binion
In article <4t2g8j$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Richard M. Stuemke) wrote:
> those who subscribe to the gay lifestyle.
Is this a self renewing thing? I didn't send in my payment of a Judy
Garland CD and I'm afraid I'm going to be taken off the subscription
list....
Lynn Hawkins
in Drum Corps, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Many victims are
either too young to understand what actually happened to them, or are
too ashamed to speak to anyone about it. I speak from experience... My
"experience" occured with an instructor :-( and though twenty years and
lots of therapy have passed since then, it will _always_ hurt.
(But that certainly does not mean, by any stretch, that gay folks are
child molesters.)
My $.02
Lynn
lhaw...@hooked.net