Ken Mazur to Larry Hyme
SILVERDOTS
Well lets see.......... my art company has been in business 15 years. Clients
inclue major developers, architectural firms, design firms, builders and
advertising agencies. My work hangs on walls in the continental United States,
Europe and China. I have achieved sales in many media such as casein tempera,
oils, pen and ink, water color and pencil broadside. Unlike George Hopkins or
the entire YEA/DCI/WGI staffs, I know what a perspective is, can freehand
sketch accurately and have ample repertiore in the use of color and textures.
Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional adults, not
kids.
Now, who the royal hell are YOU?
Here is why the attempt to take money from band booster clubs (thats where the
money is) through all this visual design crap is a lie and a farce:
Drum corps shows are extremely weak visually.
1) They have no perspective.
(although judges like the Czapinskis and Cesarios claim artistic visions. The
buzz word has been used often by the visual caption. How do I know? I judged
next to these clowns for years. Finally having heard enough visual bullshit, I
asked them for their art credentials. They ran away. WGI DCI YEA all refuse to
list their *designers* credentials -even more of a problem when you consider
their mission statements are geared toward getting into the schools as
*educators* for public money.)
2) There is no shade and shadow.
3) There is no gradation of color. (Its hilarious to watch these *designers*
wreck the color coordination of the corps uniforms with assinine attempts at
changing colors to signify some meteoric conceptual occurance. Many of them
are plain ugly in color coordination yet the judges have orgasms in the box.)
4)There is no gradation of line weight.
5 There is a prevalence of obtuse forms, an indicator of primitive conceptual
ability.
In simplist terms, the drum corps designers -through Hopkins wanting to control
the score sheets - tried to take their big egos past the art forms limits.
Problem is their talent let them down. They failed. Thats why suddenly they
did away with all the props on the field. One minute its a fad, then its
gone. Great art is not a fad. DCI has become nothing but a mutual admiration
society of people trying to protect their own agendas. Its not about kids.
Their claims of *we are for the kids* is hilarious when you consider that the
adult design visual captions have the weight of the score sheets, not the
performers.
If you disagree there Larry, get the art and design credentials and samples of
the DCI YEA WGI judges portfolios and trade me 10 of mine for 10 of what you
find. I dont think youll find shit.
Put up or shut up Larry.
I marched 17 years. Seen a lot of BS out of the visual caption. They are the
problem with drum corps. Blame Hopkins for this as his entry to the political
scene in the early 1980's is when drum corps tried to market their weakest
element of the shows - the visual. Enter the prop happy Cesarios, drum corps
version of a slimey fashion show. The more visual bullshit that went into the
score sheets, the more it could be controlled. Enter George Hopkins, the man
who despises competition and loves subjectivity. (BTW, did you see the look on
his face when that tie was announced. LOL!)
Ken Mazur
Phrenchy
so, then, why the royal hell do you not do something to fix it i.e....start
writing drill or form your own corps so that you would have an actual voice
in DCI
"put up or shut up", Ken
Or is it a case of "those who can, do...those who can't, post to RAMD so
they can bitch about it"?
--
Jason C Frith
Wad Squad '92-96
Crown '95
Email: <ja...@frith.com>
http://jason.frith.com <-- Written by a cracked team of monkeys.
MMccartt
the
money is) through all this visual design crap is a lie and a farce:>>
Semantics, semantics, semantics...
Let's try it then, Ken. Let's "arc 'em up" in front of the pit (shouldn't have
to pay too much for someone to coordinate that) and forget about the Cadets'
"waterfall," or the Cavies' wild and crazy block manipulation and every other
visual effect (oops - is there another phrase I can use here? Something more
technically relevant? The last thing I want is a vocabulary lesson by the
FREAK Ken Mazur...) which had the crowd going BANANAS this year. After all,
these "visuals designers" are destroying the activity (even though DCI is
EXTREMELY healthy these days, from what I've heard). Corps are folding left
and right because they have to pay their visual designers (forget about the
piss-poor management at the helm, or the extraordinarily high price for putting
out a touring corps these days). There is a lack of interest simply because
there are new things for kids to do in the world (notice the brilliant pre-show
PBS bit which certainly appealed to a new and different crowd - the piercings,
the tattoos...).
Ken, one would think you could use your obvious business acumen to help solve
the REAL problems facing drum corps. The VISUAL DESIGNERS I know are certainly
getting a fair reimbursement for the amount of time they put into their work.
How is it that a large number of corps can not only afford to pay their VISUAL
DESIGNERS, but can do so year after year after year? How much do you ASSUME
they are getting paid? I am a musical arranger - how much should I be getting
paid? Perhaps nothing? Should I donate my time? I DO THIS FOR A LIVING!!!
I'm either stupid or crazy - I don't know of any other person who spends as
much time doing what I do - working on a product which affects the entire
summer of 128 young people - and getting paid what I get paid. Yeah, I'm an
idiot. I need to start up an art company... so much for my fondness for this
activity. So much for my sensitivity for seeing kids grow and develop. I'll
just start up a frickin' art company, make some money (what a concept!), and
spend the rest of my life in a misdirected, uninformed, unenlightened BITCH
SESSION. That should help this activity thrive and grow!
As far as I'm concerned, the one thing that's going to save this activity was
witnessed - in part - during the 2000 season: entertainment. Entertain the
crowds, they'll buy tickets. Give the kids an image which can wow the old and
the new, and drum corps will thrive with new members. If this means hiring a
VISUAL DESIGNER to come up with more waterfalls and Z-pulls, and straight lines
and whatever, then do it. If the crowd does not go nuts, fire their ass, and
hire another VISUAL DESIGNER.
Very sincerely,
Marty McCartt
MUSICAL AND VISUAL DESIGNER EXTRAORDINAIRE
Everyman
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
HYMELAND
>not
>kids.
>
>Now, who the royal hell are YOU?
WOW!!!! Fried like a Frito in the skillet of Hades.
Well Ken,I will admit that I underestimated your education and qualifacations
regarding some of your rants.However I am now even MORE confused as to your
attitude.
Is it the bad (in your opinion) design,thatis the problem here or is the money
designers get,or is it that you ARE a designer and no one will hire you
Daniel O'Neal
'Course, I like the Cavies' visual program better, but ...
Dan
Phrenchy wrote:
> SILVERDOTS, slide me the porter, drink side run the java
>
> >>> Excuse me sir but what the hell would you know about artistic integrity?
> >
> > Well lets see.......... my art company has been in business 15 years. Clients
> > inclue major developers, architectural firms, design firms, builders and
> > advertising agencies. My work hangs on walls in the continental United
> > States,
> > Europe and China. I have achieved sales in many media such as casein
> > tempera,
> > oils, pen and ink, water color and pencil broadside. Unlike George Hopkins or
> > the entire YEA/DCI/WGI staffs, I know what a perspective is, can freehand
> > sketch accurately and have ample repertiore in the use of color and textures.
> > Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional adults,
> > not
> > kids.
> >
> > Now, who the royal hell are YOU?
> >
> > Here is why the attempt to take money from band booster clubs (thats where the
> > money is) through all this visual design crap is a lie and a farce:
> >
Daniel O'Neal
looks nice, you'll know 'cause the crowd will indicate their approval. Is there
some school where you can get a degree in drill design? Will a degree in art
automatically make you a better visual designer? Maybe they're just doing stuff
that they think is cool, and since other people like it too, they've stuck with it
... just my thought.
Ryan H. Turner
angle at which Ken Mazur attacks the acitivity. I have had a round or two with
him in private email when he accused me, of all people, of coming from the
crowd that he so hates, and that is, a fake "designer" who is out to get as
much money from booster groups as possible. Apparently, his tact with me, and
the way I was responding to him, was a test of sorts, of which I'm not sure if
I passed or not. But to clarify before I go on...the same thing I told him I
tell everyone. I provide a service for people (in the band and winterguard
world), who for whatever reason, want someone who knows how to design a show to
do it for them. Period. I don't claim great credentials or degrees, I just
claim experience and satisfaction from previous people who have hired me (and
some dissatisfaction as well...because you can't please everybody!!!)
I have conceded to Ken in private email that while I think he is making too
much of a seemingly little thing, that I was DEFINITELY intrigued by his angle
about the "approach" to drum corps today and the emphasis upon the visual by
people who claim GREATER KNOWLEDGE in the subject than perhaps would be
considered, I don't know, completely accurate. Additionally, Ken, while he
borders on the fringes of a complete and nefarious "conspiracy" that he has
found, states the proof is in the pudding so to speak, and invites people to
look at the emphasis of the judging on the visual. The only thing I can say to
that is that I do see that EFFECT is the emphasis, and that's just not the
visual design. That's EVERYTHING that goes into the show...much more than the
visual focus he seems to dislike so much.
Ken, unless he's lying, which I don't think he is, obviously is quite talented
in the world of design. He shows that with his apparent knowledge of what is
LACKING in the visual design of corps (and marching bands I assume), that being
the lack of "color gradation", "shade and shadow", "line weight gradation", and
the like. These terms are "easy" in comparison to apply to a STATIC PICTURE,
versus a moving group of humans. And I know he'll slap himself in the forehead
and say, "BUT ANIMATORS DO IT EVERYDAY!!" That's fine, but again, that's a
STATIC PICTURE...THAT MOVES!!
Visual show design deals with the movement in real life of human beings and it
HOPEFULLY has to coordinate with the music in terms of style, staging of
instruments, staging of guard, velocity (or lack there of), spacing, direction,
body alignment, etc. I would never attempt to argue that this is IMPORTANT nor
on any same level as what Ken does, but I refuse to allow him the pleasure of
saying that what I and countless others are doing is NOT design. He knows
where I stand on this, and he knows I'm right. And I know HE'S right too,
about what HE does. The two of us CAN survive in the same world AND BE CALLED
DESIGNERS. It's just that some are NOT being genuine about what they are. I
know what I am...and I don't hype anything else. And it would bug me as much
as it bugs Ken to have to deal with inflated egos and "credentials" that don't
really exist.
I understand however, again, his frustration. And I would invite HIM to put up
or shut up...but not in a rude or condescending way but in a way to motivate
him to stop bitching about it and get out there and teach ME how to change it,
or do it himself. Teach me how to apply line gradation and shadow to moving
groups of human beings and make it ALWAYS relate to the music AND THE
CROWD...apparently it can be done, and who knows....Ken Mazur and Ryan H.
Turner could be the next Zingali and Brubaker of the activity!!!
Don't get mad at me Ken....I didn't attack you. Just discussing...
Ryan H. Turner--Man w/NO life whatsover...and proud of it!!
MARCHING BAND, DRUM CORPS, WINTER GUARD FAN
VK DM 1986 and 1987
Show Design Consultant/Visual Consultant/Marching Instructor
911/Fire Dept Comm. Dispatcher...and a partridge in a pear tree!
HYMELAND
>>Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional adults,
>>not
>>kids.
>>
>>Now, who the royal hell are YOU?
>
>
>
> Well Ken,I will admit that I underestimated your education and
>qualifacations
>regarding some of your rants.However I am now even MORE confused as to your
>attitude.
> Is it the bad (in your opinion) design,thatis the problem here or is the
>money
>designers get,or is it that you ARE a designer and no one will hire you
I also dont get this "selling visual design to kids" the kids dont pick the
designer,the "professional "band director and staff do.What about the musical
arrangers,dont they get paid,I dont see you ranting about them.
Your concern for the kids is
commendable,it is however misplaced,you act as if the kids are not getting any
kind of education here.I totally disagree and I bet that if you asked ANY of
the kids at DCI,ANY class corps,if they learned any thing this summer they
would overwhelmingly say yes. Does one have to have a degree to teach kids?
"All this visual design
crap is a lie and a farce." Excuse me
but it is DRUM CORPS DRILL,is it art,well some think yes,some think no,(you for
instance)A lot of art is a farce,come on I have seen solid red canvasses being
sold for thousands of dollars,I have heard of exhibits in world renowned art
museums that were created from SHIT,yes I mean feces.Art is in the eye of the
beholder. I for one enjoy this form,as well as many other forms of art,mostly
musicial.I have no degree to tell me why I like (or should like) this or that,I
dont worry much about "shade and shadow" or "color gradation" I just know what
I like and dont like.If you are concerned with semantics,that he or she thinks
they are an artist,but have no degree to prove it,lighten up.Many great artists
have no degree,many people with art degrees suck.
There are probably some people in this activity who have egos that are a
little to big for their own good but this is true in any business or
activity.As I see it ,Drum Corps is a lot of people ,kids AND adults who work
VERY hard to put out shows that we all drive very far to see,all summer.There
is no other kind of entertainment that I will drive 8 or 10 hours to see a
peformance. Is it art,who cares,I like to think it is,so to me
it is ,if it is an art form that you dont like any more then DONT ATTEND,turn
the channel,or better yet,FIX IT,come on KEN,show us what a REAL designer can
do.
Peace Larry
Hyme
tlandry...@my-deja.com
And that would be fine. But I think the complaint is that these ARE
just "guys" doing stuff they think looks "cool." But they put on airs
and tell everyone that they are "artists" pursuing a "vision" in a
bold "art form." And that claim is utter crap.
Tom.
MJPUDSTER
>Entertain the
>crowds, they'll buy tickets.
Did you see some this summer. I was at 3 shows this summer. I actually saw
something approaching entertainment from the Scouts, Southwind & Carolina
Crown. I guess the judges didn't see the same thing I did.
Mike
"Could this planet be some other planet's hell?"
Nikk Pilato
If you aren't an accomplished artist, if you haven't taken an art
class, if you haven't had your art hanging up in the lobby of some major
corporation, then he doesn't want you calling yourself a "designer."
If you haven't taken a college course involving art, you shouldn't
be designing drill. Ken is the very thing he rails against...he is a
snob. Now, he's not all wrong. There are a lot of things he is right
about. But the fact that every word he posts drips sarcasm and
bitterness, and he sounds like a hulking version of an adult at all times.
Oh boy, I've done it now. Now I can expect a veiled or
not-so-veiled threat through email. Oh no! ;-)
++
np
"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper"
-T.S. Eliot
Michael
Thank you Nikk.
In article <8nu8ch$22p$1...@news.fsu.edu>,
MMccartt
just "guys" doing stuff they think looks "cool." But they put on airs
and tell everyone that they are "artists" pursuing a "vision" in a
bold "art form." And that claim is utter crap.>>
So you're bitter about what you perceive - or conjecture - that other people
are thinking about themselves. Sounds like a generalization to me; I know a
number of great visual designers who don't make such claims, but rather simply
try to write cool drill that will make the crowd crap their pants.
I'm sure there is some clinical explanation for such bitterness about other
people's ego semantics, and I'm sorry you are eat up with it.
Marty
Phrenchy
> Did you see some this summer. I was at 3 shows this summer. I actually saw
> something approaching entertainment from the Scouts, Southwind & Carolina
> Crown. I guess the judges didn't see the same thing I did.
>
> Mike
since when did judges base their score on an applause meter?
tsco...@my-deja.com
silve...@aol.com (SILVERDOTS) wrote:
Ken, you have to get over Chris Tony tossing your 'herbie' off the bus
during tour.
Actually, I agree with a lot of what your say - but I know nothing about
design myself either.
Now software.....that I know. Too bad I can't choreograph that neat
little Smalltalk virtual machine I am coding.
mike_d...@my-deja.com
mmcc...@aol.com (MMccartt) wrote:
>
> Semantics, semantics, semantics...
>
>
GREAT post, Marty.
Mike
ChiBoyinLA
The scoresheets these days reflect a subjective evaluation of the designer's
contributions far more than they did "way back when," AND the change in the
sheets coincided with Hopkins' arrival as Cadets' director (frankly, I think
the timing of that event is more coincidental than anything).
When DCI started, the execution captions comprised 70% of the sheets. There
were two judges evaluating drums execution, two evaluating horns execution and
2 evaluating marching execution. Three judges in the press box evaluated
general effect, with 10% each for drums, horns and marching. During the later
70's, a small portion of the execution captions was handed over to "analysis",
which basically gave credit for exceptional demand. This system lasted pretty
much up through 1984.
In 1984, the "three level" approach was implimented - 3 execution judges on the
field, 3 ensemble judges mid-level, and 3 GE judges up top. The visual GE
caption was increased from 10 points to 15 points, at the expense of the M&M
caption, which was reduced from 25 points to 20 (split between field and
ensemble).
Today, GE Visual is up to 20% of the score, at the expense of horns and drums
general effect. Color guard gets an additional 10%, partially at the expense
of the "music ensemble" caption. GE Visual and Color Guard are both pretty
subjective categories. Throw in the field and ensemble captions, and "visual"
now controls 50% of the sheets (only 1/2 of which is pure "execution"),
compared to 35% in the old days, when more than 2/3rd of the caption was for
pure execution.
Percussion, brass and marching execution now comprise only about 40-45% of the
total score (including the execution elements of the "ensemble" sheets).
To sum up, execution -- the captions which are completely in the hands (and
feet) of the kids on the field -- gets a lot less weight these days than it
used to, ESPECIALLY in the horn and drum captions (i.e. 80% of the performers
in a typical corps).
The visual captions, particularly the more design-influenced captions like GE,
Color Guard and to a lesser extent, ensemble, get a lot more weight than they
used to.
Reach your own conclusions as to whether this is good or bad for the activity.
R.W.
fran...@my-deja.com
>integrity?
hmmm now who detirmines artistic integrity? Art schools! Exclusive
club of a very few. If you didn't go to one and learn the "right" way
(whatever that is), you're not a real artist? Where did you go to art
school Ken?
> Well lets see.......... my art company has been in business 15
>years.
Not a very long time in the grand scheme of things
>Clients inclue major developers, architectural firms, design firms,
builders and advertising agencies.
Such as?
> My work hangs on walls in the continental United States,
> Europe .
Where? Tell us. Maybe when people from here plan their vacations we
might go check out your work.
>and China
Ahhh in cohorts with the murderers of Tiananmen Square and the
opressors of Tibet Ken? Makes sense...riot club--Maoist thugs..same
thing.
> I have achieved sales in many media such as casein tempera,
> oils, pen and ink, water color and pencil broadside.
So have lots of other people, that makes you nonunique!
>Unlike George Hopkins or the entire YEA/DCI/WGI staffs, I know what a
>perspective is, can freehand sketch accurately and have ample
>repertiore in the use of color and textures.
I take it then Ken, you know everyone in YEA/DCI/WGI personally enough
to make that a true statemet? Doubt it.
> Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional
>adults, not kids.
Like who?
Kenny...the market detirmines what is art regardless of what you think
it is. Is drum corps an art form? What is art? Art is the
perception of the individual.
Just what drills that have won championships have you written Ken? I
have yet to find your name on any staffs as their drill writer and my
reference material goes back to before you were even thought of. Sure
you can put colors together in the "right" way (whatever that is)....so
can a talented 5 year old in kindergarten.
No Ken, I've never written a drill or sold a painting. I appreciate
what I find appealing. And here I thought most artists--that is what
you call yourself, right?---are open minded. Well, there's your
uniqueness--you're not!
The riot club is dead Ken...over, failure....now get on with your life
and go sell some more tapestries to some more nameless individuals and
companies!
Nikk Pilato
> since when did judges base their score on an applause meter?
Well, according to the GE sheets, they are supposed to at least take it
into consideration.
Falcon6312
I've seen them in Mc Donalds and the men's room in a London train station..
Ryan H. Turner
>
>
>Jason C Frith
Exactly brother Jason...because in THAT case, VK would have won the damn show
in 92!
HEH!!
Glen
>>Europe and China.
And how much are they paying at the Scottissue plant these days?
GEORGE 82
>>Europe and China.
gee, I had always wondered who painted the "Dogs playing Poker"......
I can rest peacefully now.
:c)
FYWW
VK alumn, 1992
SILVERDOTS
That will be a sorry thing for the WGI DCI YEA organizations as they dont have
the credentials to get in the doors. LOL
<< Where did you go to art
school Ken? >>
Bachelors in Architecture. Here is a short list:
Casein Tempera - Morris Jackson Smith Henchmen Grylls
Howard Etter - private practice markers
Dale Ferriby - private practice markers, pencil broadside
Harvey Ferraro - private practice pencil broadside, colored pencil,
perspectives, quick free hand sketching,
Harold Weeks - studio charcoal freehand sketching and figure drawing
Richard Rochon - private practice markers
(one of the best in the Unitred States. This guy kicks ass)
Shirley Hathaway - oils Scarab Club of Detroit
Lewis King - water colors Scarab Club of Detroit
>>>>In business 15 years
<< Not a very long time in the grand scheme of things
Depends on your talent level and the amount of practicing you do. Long enough
to kick your sorry ass.
<< Such as? >>
Give me the name address and phone number (fax) of your employ and I will tell
you. Do you have a job or are you a drum corps bum?
<< Where? Tell us. Maybe when people from here plan their vacations we
might go check out your work. >>
OK.
Tampa Florida
Apollo Beach Florida (great bay winds and not developed)
St Petersburg Florida (great boating)
Jacksonville Florida (nice but small shop section downtown)
Clearwater Florida (great beach!)
Lakeland Florida (watch the Detroit Tigers at Lake Parker)
Orlando Florida (dance at Pleasure Island)
Beijing China (Go to the Great Wall. Eat at A & W)
Shenzhen China (Trade on their stock exchange)
Hong Kong China (Go to the wet markets and ride the boats)
Sicily Italy on the Med (Excellent all year. great food)
Most building corridors in Michigan (I hate snow)
<< Ahhh in cohorts with the murderers of Tiananmen Square and the opressors of
Tibet Ken? Makes sense...riot club--Maoist thugs..same thing. >>
No I was followed by plainclothes police in the Square and carted away by 5
Chinese Army Regulars after the Honk Kong Marathon. (Never throw your shirt
away during a race)
The Chinese are more interested in Capitolism than Americans are. They want to
make money. The only difference I see between DCI and the Chinese is that the
Chinese do business with adults and DCI WGI YEA goes after little kids for a
profit. Over there that would be considered a bad reflection on you. Unlike
DCI, the Chinese know their communist leaders days are numbered.
At this point I must ask you to tell me what the performers are learning about
art and design from the visual caption.
Lets have it. What? Then what is the purpose of the *visual* caption? To
make them guys money. Great to make money if you got somethin to sell. They
dont. Case closed.
<<<<I have achieved sales in many media such as casein tempera, oils, pen and
ink, water color and pencil broadside.
>>So have lots of other people, that makes you nonunique!
Compared to your little visual bozo's it makes me the Mona Lisa. (You cant
tick the Mona Lisa right? ask Cesario)
Actually this type of art demands perfect execution .... kinda like being in a
really good drumline. Thats what got me into the field.
<< I take it then Ken, you know everyone in YEA/DCI/WGI personally enough to
make that a true statemet? Doubt it. >>
Lets find out.
I have asked for their art/design credentials numerous times.
They be afraid to speak. The WGI head honcho really got rattled. Hopkins says
"Who is art, eh?* Tell George in the public schools its someone with an art
degree. I will trade you 10 samples from my portfolio for 10 of your DCI/WGI
wanna-bees samples. Put up or shut up. (Just DO it!)
<< Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional adults,
not kids.
<<Like who?
Give me your work address, bosses name, fax # and phone # and lets exchange
info. If you dont have a job and sit on your ass all day, no deal.
<< the market detirmines what is art regardless of what you think >>
Thats why George is trying so hard to get school money fool. He destroyed his
own market. The new one already has teachers and a union. Good luck.
<< Is drum corps an art form? Yes, one with an extemely limited visual
capacity. Audio rules.
>>What is art?
To put it simply, art is a selective re-creation of reality according to an
artists metaphysical value judgements.
Great art is simple to the observers perception, complex in the mind of the
creator. All art involves individual cognition.
It is one thing to say *I like that*
The artist knows WHY he likes it and can define it.
Listening for over a decade to visual design fools trying to memorize art buzz
words was humerous. Still is.........
<< I've never written a drill or sold a painting. I appreciate
what I find appealing.
Hence you dont know why you like something. You feel and cant think. Too bad
for you.
>>And here I thought most artists--that is what
you call yourself, right?---are open minded. >>
I dont like bullshit no matter the idiom. (and I dont like you.) Prove yourself
and your concepts under srutiny or shut the hell up. That you dont have the
DNA to percieve a sham is your prob.
>>Just what drill have you written?
Every corps I ever worked with had a visual person that couldnt handle *what to
do with the drum line.* If you didnt want to change the difficulty, you
rewrote it yourself.
Playing with dots was intellectually amusing.
>>Sure you can put colors in the right way (whatever that is)
Yeah whatever.......... and you want my client lists? LOL
>>so can a talented 5 year old in kindergarten.
Oh you mean they have 5 year olds judging DCI?
<< The riot club is dead Ken...over, failure... >>
The Riot Club will be having dinner together in Pittsburgh in about 2 weeks.
:o)
<< and go sell some more tapestries to some more nameless individuals and
companies!
Copies of my 40" x 60" original pen and ink of a 140 man drum corps (with a 12
5 5 5 drum line) will be on sale at the PAS National Convention in Dallas Texas
nov 15th - 18th.
The Kodalith is being processed as I write this. :o)
Want a piece of art by a real artist?
Ken Mazur
SILVERDOTS
be designing drill. >>
No, if you dont have the credentials stop trying to manipulate booster clubs
who dont know the activity into believing you have the talent or can *teach*
art.
Be what you say you are.
The visual caption did this to themselves. I was at the meetings when the
visual assholes said *WE ARE EXPANDING OUR ENVELOPE* then started using art
buzz words to justify that they were in fact great designers. Its gone on for
15 years. I know the diff and am telling everyone its bullshit. *Drill
people* either go with that flow or get their kids dumped.
<< Now, he's not all wrong. There are a lot of things he is right about. >>
Yup.
Ken Mazur
SILVERDOTS
number of great visual designers who don't make such claims, but rather simply
try to write cool drill that will make the crowd crap their pants. >>
How do you know they are *great*?
What is your criteria? (Dont use DCI bullshit,,,,, use your own)
*Cool* and *Gee that looks good* dont cut it.
Ken Mazur
SILVERDOTS
solve
the REAL problems facing drum corps. >>
Yes. True. However, Vince Lamb hit on the head when he said this was a
culture war. Its objective conservatives who want an orderly competitive
process against radical subjective liberals who hate competition and want
anything goes. If you cant win change the rules so no one can.
George loves change. I say establish tough performer judging criteria , let
the kids decide the show with objective judging and let the designers go to
hell.
The fact is that it IS called the SUMMER MUSIC GAMES.
In the Olympics the coaches dont get out thee and compete.
They are not judged.
You cant market the competitive aspects of corps with the idiots that are at
the helm. They want to market *education*.
Well then lets have their art credentials. I didnt do this. I never went into
a drum rehersal to teach art concepts. I never said I was *expanding my
artistic visual envelope* at a drum corps rehersal.
Fact is that the members learn nothing about art from these drum corps
designers or the design judges. Ask them. (They say *thats a staff thing*)
And who are the competitions for?
As I see it this is the Berlin Wall. It will crash from its own corruption.
Give it and George a few more years.
Ken Mazur
SILVERDOTS
Or is it a case of "those who can, do...those who can't, post to RAMD so
they can bitch about it"? >>
Get me 10 samples of your designers portfolio and trade me 10 of mine. Cmon
little one. Put up or shut up. Afraid what you might discover?
Please state what your visual designer has taught you about art and design in
Crown. If nothing then what is the purpose of it on the sheets? Who is being
judged? They dont judge the coaches in olympic competition fool. Watch it in
frickin September.
Ken Mazur
Frank Schoenbach
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:57:59 GMT, the lovely and talented
> silve...@aol.comwrote:
<< hmmm now who detirmines artistic integrity? Art schools! >>
That will be a sorry thing for the WGI DCI YEA organizations as they
dont have the credentials to get in the doors. LOL
ahhh elitiism
<< Where did you go to art
school Ken? >>
Bachelors in Architecture. Here is a short list:
Casein Tempera - Morris Jackson Smith Henchmen Grylls
Howard Etter - private practice markers
Dale Ferriby - private practice markers, pencil broadside
Harvey Ferraro - private practice pencil broadside, colored pencil,
perspectives, quick free hand sketching,
Harold Weeks - studio charcoal freehand sketching and figure drawing
Richard Rochon - private practice markers
(one of the best in the Unitred States. This guy kicks ass)
Shirley Hathaway - oils Scarab Club of Detroit
Lewis King - water colors Scarab Club of Detroit
Thank you Ken.....this is the first I've seen any of this, you would
have thought you would have told the entire riot club just what your
credintials are.
>>>>In business 15 years
<< Not a very long time in the grand scheme of things
Depends on your talent level and the amount of practicing you do.
Long enough to kick your sorry ass.
hmmmm now Ken, settle down....where exactly did I saw I was a
"designer" or anything? You know damn well who I am.
<< Such as? >>
Give me the name address and phone number (fax) of your employ and I
will tell you. Do you have a job or are you a drum corps bum?
Once again....I'm not in the lavish art world or write for corps. You
knew that a long time ago.
<< Where? Tell us. Maybe when people from here plan their vacations
we might go check out your work. >>
OK.
Tampa Florida
Apollo Beach Florida (great bay winds and not developed)
St Petersburg Florida (great boating)
Jacksonville Florida (nice but small shop section downtown)
Clearwater Florida (great beach!)
Lakeland Florida (watch the Detroit Tigers at Lake Parker)
Orlando Florida (dance at Pleasure Island)
Beijing China (Go to the Great Wall. Eat at A & W)
Shenzhen China (Trade on their stock exchange)
Hong Kong China (Go to the wet markets and ride the boats)
Sicily Italy on the Med (Excellent all year. great food)
Most building corridors in Michigan (I hate snow)
Great Upper or Lower Michigan?
<< Ahhh in cohorts with the murderers of Tiananmen Square and the
opressors of Tibet Ken? Makes sense...riot club--Maoist thugs..same
thing. >>
No I was followed by plainclothes police in the Square and carted away
by 5 Chinese Army Regulars after the Honk Kong Marathon. (Never throw
your shirt away during a race)
Just for throwing your shirt away? They ever tell you why?
Seriously.
The Chinese are more interested in Capitolism than Americans are.
They want to make money. The only difference I see between DCI and
the Chinese is that the Chinese do business with adults and DCI WGI
YEA goes after little kids for a profit. Over there that would be
considered a bad reflection on you. Unlike DCI, the Chinese know
their communist leaders days are numbered.
Yes they are after money....how else are they going to build up their
military.
At this point I must ask you to tell me what the performers are
learning about art and design from the visual caption.
Lets have it. What? Then what is the purpose of the *visual*
caption? To make them guys money. Great to make money if you got
somethin to sell. They dont. Case closed.
Probably not alot. But is that why they're there in the first place?
<<<<I have achieved sales in many media such as casein tempera, oils,
pen and ink, water color and pencil broadside.
>>So have lots of other people, that makes you nonunique!
Compared to your little visual bozo's it makes me the Mona Lisa. (You
cant tick the Mona Lisa right? ask Cesario)
Actually this type of art demands perfect execution .... kinda like
being in a really good drumline. Thats what got me into the field.
I don't have any little visual bozo's. I remember that quote back in
what, 83? Are you sure it was Cesario that said that?
<< I take it then Ken, you know everyone in YEA/DCI/WGI personally
enough to make that a true statemet? Doubt it. >>
Lets find out.
I have asked for their art/design credentials numerous times.
They be afraid to speak. The WGI head honcho really got rattled.
Hopkins says "Who is art, eh?* Tell George in the public schools its
someone with an art degree. I will trade you 10 samples from my
portfolio for 10 of your DCI/WGI wanna-bees samples. Put up or shut
up. (Just DO it!)
Well since I've already told you that I'm not a "designer" you can
probably figure out I don't have any samples.
I have to say though Ken....after being in the riot club with you,
this is the first I've ever seen you list what you've done anywhere.
<< Unlike your design staffs or judges, I sell my work to professional
adults, not kids.
<<Like who?
Give me your work address, bosses name, fax # and phone # and lets
exchange info. If you dont have a job and sit on your ass all day, no
deal.
Ok, I'll send you all the quarterly reports I've ever done and
recordings of my boss's greatest sayings. How's that?
Yes Ken I have a job....probably nowhere near as exciting as yours.
Mine's with the government so you can figure out just who exciting
that can be.
You've always yelled and screamed on here about credentials and asking
everyone and their mother for their's without ever showing yours.
Good job showing them. Granted, I don't know enough about your world
to know who the people you've listed are, but that's cool. At least
you did it.
Like I said, I'm not a drill writer, "designer" artist or anything
like that. You've put up by listing your credentials finally.
But I really do want to know....what exactly do you want the visual
caption to be? Back to M&M, simple drill? No color? What?
Frank
reformed ex-riot club member
Nikk Pilato
Then what does? You've already told us that terms such as "gradiance" and
"perspective" don't cut it. Now you're telling us that audience appeal
doesn't cut it either...so WHAT THE HECK IS THE MARK OF A GOOD (not
necessarily great) Drill WRITER?
If it isn't subjective art terms, and it isn't audience reaction, is it
symmetry? Do you want corps to be symmetrical with the drum line up
front? Hell, my computer can spit that out without me even trying.
I honestly want to know...what makes a good drill writer?
VKGARRY73
>12
>5 5 5 drum line) will be on sale at the PAS National Convention in Dallas
>Texas
>nov 15th - 18th.
>The Kodalith is being processed as I write this. :o)
>
>Want a piece of art by a real artist?
I do! But I can't get to PAS. Will they be for sale anywhere else? (I still
need to get your drum book, too!)
VKG
I've got a PBS mind in an MTV world
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
Remove "byte-me" from address to respond by e-mail
Daniel O'Neal
What if someone who's never taken an art class in her life paints something that I
think is absolutely beautiful? What if someone who learned to play piano by ear
composes a melody that brings a tear to my eye?
On the other hand, there is a lot of stuff out there by "respected" artists which I
think is bunk. A black stripe on a yellow canvas, with a red dot above it? IMHO,
that's not really art. Some of the weird stuff written by some of the more
avant-guarde 20th century composers? (You know who I mean.) IMHO, some of that is
hardly even music! :-)
Are drum corps visual designers artists? Maybe, maybe not. They're certainly
capable craftsmen. I think Zingali and Brubaker were definately artists. And take
the Cavaliers' drill from 1995, for instance -- I don't even know the guy's name who
wrote it, and it was certainly derivative of Brubaker's work, but I think it was a
work of sheer genius.
Finally, I think that *Cool* and *Gee that looks great* do "cut it" when you're
talking about a work of art. See, I don't think art is something you can
necessarily define in scientific terms. It's all subjective, don't you think? Ken
may think he's akin to Picasso or Michaelangelo, although I don't know if I've ever
seen his work. I might like it if I did, I might not. If he thinks the stuff
visual designers are writing these days is crap, then he has a right to his
opinion. If I think that designing drill for drum corps is an art, then I have the
right to mine.
Personally, I think that some of the musical arrangements these days are a bit too
chock-a-block, and occasionally a little boring. The visual design is often my
favorite aspect of a show!
Dan
Daniel O'Neal
Michael
silve...@aol.com (SILVERDOTS) wrote:
> << If you haven't taken a college course involving art, you shouldn't
> be designing drill. >>
>
> No, if you dont have the credentials stop trying to manipulate
booster clubs
> who dont know the activity into believing you have the talent or can
*teach* art.
The Mazur BS just gets deeper and deeper.... According to the above:
- Booster clubs are being "manipulated" that someone has the talent to
teach "*art*". (By the way, what is the fixation with "booster clubs"?
Never mind... I'm sure it's just because they are part of the great
unwashed masses that are not qualified to speak the word "art.") I
can't remember the last time an instructor/designer mentioned art to
any of the booster clubs I've been involved in... :::shrug:::
- If you analyze the above statement, it implies that talent is
worthless without "credentials", or extrapolated, that credentials are
the true measure of relative worth and talent is irrelevant, or at
best, incidental.
> Be what you say you are.
Okay, I say that I am just as unimpressed with this obsessive diatribe
as I was two years ago when you first came here with it.
> The visual caption did this to themselves. I was at the meetings when
the
> visual assholes said *WE ARE EXPANDING OUR ENVELOPE* then started
using art
> buzz words to justify that they were in fact great designers. Its
gone on for
> 15 years.
Yep, and you're STILL stuck in 1984...
> I know the diff and am telling everyone its bullshit.
One man's bullshit is another man's chocolate cake. Just because
you "know the difference" doesn't make your opinion any more valid than
another... regardless of your "credentials." Might as well eat the
cake or starve on the bullshit, because your ranting got old a long
time ago.
> *Drill people* either go with that flow or get their kids dumped.
Yeah, yeah, yeah... it's all one grand conspiracy. I hear that Bush
was going to appoint Cesario to a new cabinet post if he is elected
called the Department of the Interior DESIGN, but he found that Michael
had some pesky "credentials" that would spoil the whole concept...
Whatever.....
> << Now, he's not all wrong. There are a lot of things he is right
about. >>
>
> Yup.
Yeah, and even a blind sow finds an acorn once in a while, too...
Michael
little ol' un-credentialed guy like me can appreciate! Thank you
Daniel! (Or am I qualified to say that? Do I have compliment
credentials? I certainly don't want to manipulate Daniel into
accepting my compliment if I am not qualified to offer it! Oh, never
mind, I'll take my chances! LOL!)
In article <39A3D143...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>,
mike_d...@my-deja.com
fra...@madtown.net wrote:
>
>
> Ok, I'll send you all the quarterly reports I've ever done and
> recordings of my boss's greatest sayings. How's that?
> Yes Ken I have a job....probably nowhere near as exciting as yours.
> Mine's with the government so you can figure out just who exciting
> that can be.
>
Well, being President sure seems to have some exciting 'fringe
benefits'. :-)
Mike
Frank Schoenbach
mike_d...@my-deja.com wrote:
>In article <4u57qssjhri64hn4t...@4ax.com>,
> fra...@madtown.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ok, I'll send you all the quarterly reports I've ever done and
>> recordings of my boss's greatest sayings. How's that?
>> Yes Ken I have a job....probably nowhere near as exciting as yours.
>> Mine's with the government so you can figure out just who exciting
>> that can be.
>>
>
>Well, being President sure seems to have some exciting 'fringe
>benefits'. :-)
>
>Mike
>
hahaha true :)
Got a question for you Mike---I came across of that picture of the two
tymps from Garfield from the Orange Bowl in 72 playing in the
rain--was wondering if you're one of them in the pic.
Frank
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
MAJ(P) John Smith
Public Affairs Officer
Black Budget Projects
Majestic 12
Stealthmen
UREA! (Ultra top secret Research for Entertainment in the Arts)
******If you can't see us...we're there!*****
mike_d...@my-deja.com
fra...@madtown.net (Frank Schoenbach) wrote:
>
> Got a question for you Mike---I came across of that picture of the two
> tymps from Garfield from the Orange Bowl in 72 playing in the
> rain--was wondering if you're one of them in the pic.
>
Actually the pic was from 1971. We spent a week in Miami living at a
private school (actually DORMS, not gyms!) before going on to Dallas for
the VFW's. We played a Dolphin/49er summer exhibition game 1/2-time.
Amazing enough, the entire 1/2-time was televised, according to my
parents.
It wasn't me in the pic, though; I played tri-toms in 71. Where did you
EVER come across
that picture? I remember seeing it in one of the Miami papers the day
after our show.
Reminds me of a story about that week. A local kid, around 12 or 13, was
watching us practice. The percussion section was in the shade under a
stand of trees while the horns and guard were out in the sun (who said
drummers are dumb!). We gave the kid some money to go get us sodas (pop
to some of you out there) and hoped he would come back. He did, with
bottles of Coke and no bottle opener. We found out that the timpani rims
made excellent bottle openers! :-)
Mike
Beckham, Rick [RICH1:2L24-M:EXCH]
> Then what does? You've already told us that terms such as "gradiance" and
> "perspective" don't cut it. Now you're telling us that audience appeal
> doesn't cut it either...so WHAT THE HECK IS THE MARK OF A GOOD (not
> necessarily great) Drill WRITER?
>
> If it isn't subjective art terms, and it isn't audience reaction, is it
> symmetry? Do you want corps to be symmetrical with the drum line up
> front? Hell, my computer can spit that out without me even trying.
Symmetry, even asymmetry, is simple on a computer. Now take 128
individuals and teach symmetry. That's not as easy as you imply. And
I don't know if it was intentional, but tying symmetry with a "front-and-
center drumline" is disingenious at best.
Nikk Pilato
> Symmetry, even asymmetry, is simple on a computer. Now take 128
> individuals and teach symmetry. That's not as easy as you imply. And
> I don't know if it was intentional, but tying symmetry with a "front-and-
> center drumline" is disingenious at best.
Ok. So are you saying that drum corps should start doing symmetrical
drill again? I don't want to put words in your mouth, just asking for a
clarification. I do not doubt that it is difficult to do...I'm sure it
is. I just want a clarification of what youa re saying.
Frank Schoenbach
mike_d...@my-deja.com wrote:
>In article <39a403e0...@news.inxpress.net>,
> fra...@madtown.net (Frank Schoenbach) wrote:
>>
>> Got a question for you Mike---I came across of that picture of the two
>> tymps from Garfield from the Orange Bowl in 72 playing in the
>> rain--was wondering if you're one of them in the pic.
>>
>
>Actually the pic was from 1971. We spent a week in Miami living at a
>private school (actually DORMS, not gyms!) before going on to Dallas for
>the VFW's. We played a Dolphin/49er summer exhibition game 1/2-time.
>Amazing enough, the entire 1/2-time was televised, according to my
>parents.
>
>It wasn't me in the pic, though; I played tri-toms in 71. Where did you
>EVER come across
>that picture? I remember seeing it in one of the Miami papers the day
>after our show.
I was given a bunch of old issues of Drum Corps News...it was in an
issue from 1972!
>
>Reminds me of a story about that week. A local kid, around 12 or 13, was
>watching us practice. The percussion section was in the shade under a
>stand of trees while the horns and guard were out in the sun (who said
>drummers are dumb!). We gave the kid some money to go get us sodas (pop
>to some of you out there) and hoped he would come back. He did, with
>bottles of Coke and no bottle opener. We found out that the timpani rims
>made excellent bottle openers! :-)
>
>Mike
>
That's good! At least you didn't have to use your teeth :)
Frank
Idontwantoknow
Perhaps someone who has watched Ken bitch for several years can actually
explain to you some of his saner points (personally, I think the liberal versus
conservative crap is some bleed over from one of Ken's other obsessions ;) ),
because the summation that you make below isn't what Ken said, and certainly
wasn't what he meant to say.
>- Booster clubs are being "manipulated" that someone has the talent to
>teach "*art*".
No. Booster clubs, and high school bands in general, are being misled about the
artistic qualities of the design that the visual folks sell them. According to
Ken, anyway.
(By the way, what is the fixation with "booster clubs"?
>Never mind... I'm sure it's just because they are part of the great
>unwashed masses that are not qualified to speak the word "art.")
Gee, get a little more hyperbolic, please.
Ken believes that people that have never studied or been trained in art, should
not go around using artistic terms to describe their work. Doing so lends an
artistic legitimacy that they are not qualified for.
Is that so unreasonable? Would you not laugh outright at people using musical
terms like timbre, blend, tone color, texture, etc. etc. to describe their
playing of Jingle Bells on a telephone?
That's not to say that playing music on a telephone is pathetic or not
entertaining (okay, so it's not, but the fact that it doesn't have artistic
merit doesn't make it unentertaining). Drum corps visual is entertaining, and
much more mature than it used to be. But to a serious artist(like Ken), it's
about equivalent to a kazoo band.
I
>can't remember the last time an instructor/designer mentioned art to
>any of the booster clubs I've been involved in... :::shrug:::
>
>- If you analyze the above statement, it implies that talent is
>worthless without "credentials", or extrapolated, that credentials are
>the true measure of relative worth and talent is irrelevant, or at
>best, incidental.
Every time I think I've seen the worst representation of pure sophistry as
logic on RAMD, it gets topped. In no way did Ken ever say anything like that.
Ken did not say that someone who is untrained cannot produce great works of
art. Rather he said, and has said, that the use of art terms that are often
used to refer to drill requires artistic study.
Great music can be performed by people who know very little about the
construction and analyzation of music, but if one of those amazing talents
starts discussing in depth theory without ever spending any time studying it,
I'm gonna laugh at him. The point is not that the drill cannot be good without
artistic study and credentials, but that people who don't really know what the
hell perspective is and means shouldn't be describing drill with that term.
Alan
Vince Lamb
silve...@aol.com (SILVERDOTS) wrote:
> << Ken, one would think you could use your obvious business acumen to
> help solve the REAL problems facing drum corps. >>
>
> Yes. True. However, Vince Lamb hit on the head when he said this
> was a culture war.
Yes, I did say this and I stand by this, although it was in email about
2+ years ago, so any of you who are looking for this on Deja.com can
forget about it. I'm willing to say it's the RAMD equivalent of the
fights over school prayer, public smoking, drunk driving, and abortion.
In that same email to Ken, I also quoted Michael(?) Frum, the author
of "Dead Right" and "What is Right" and a current book about the '70s
(that it was the decade when everything changed) that "culture wars are
fought to the bitter end." So far, this culture war is fitting *that*
pattern as well.
> Its objective conservatives who want an orderly competitive
> process against radical subjective liberals who hate competition and
> want anything goes.
Well, these are the leaders of this particular battle on RAMD, although
I'm less sure of George's politics than of Ken's and Rick's. There are
other factions. There are also populists and traditionalists who are
on the conservative side, although some are far from objective. (or
objectivist :-) (According to these criteria, Stuart Rice should be on
the Ken's side, but he has his own fish to fry right now.) The majority
of Libertarians on RAMD are on the conservative side. A sizable chunk
of the rational moderates are, too--a smaller fraction is turned off by
Ken's rhetoric and staying away or heckling Ken without supporting
George, and a tiny fraction is on the liberal side. I'm not as clear
on how to classify George's supporters. Some are cult of personality
types, others are apolitical, and some may even be voting their
pocketbooks. :-) However, I can't pigeonhole everyone on either side
into convenient political classfications--and not all politics can be
measured on a "Left-Right" scale!
> If you cant win change the rules so no one can.
Or everyone one can. :-7
<snip>
> You cant market the competitive aspects of corps with the idiots that
> are at the helm.
You can't market drum corps very well at all because drum corps doesn't
know what it really is (this is an old Bill Cook point which I'm
restating). When people talk about competitive junior drum corps, they
don't call it "The Art" or "The Sport" or even "The Music"--they call
it "The Activity"! How does one market an activity? Like something
good for your health, say, jogging, or a hobby, like model airplanes?
At least drum corps was promoted effectively a long time ago as
being "good for the character" whether it was true or not! Somehow,
YEA!'s "Magnificent Human Being" mission statement doesn't ring as true
as the old character-building tack, which I can still see in Scouts and
Cavaliers.
> They want to market *education*.
This makes my face scrunch up. >:x< Education may be the best tack for
non-profit status and the hottest topic of this year's presidential
campaign, but I don't think it's the best idea for "positioning" the
activity. I've been doing some reading on marketing lately (Thanks,
Whitney!) including both "The Cluetrain Manifesto" and "Positioning:
the battle for your mind"--can't you tell? :-)
> Well then lets have their art credentials.
Or their education credentials. I still think that George figured out
that education was the next big wave that he could surf all the way
into shore on, but I don't know if it was sincere at first or just
opportunism. I am convinced that the director of Jersey Surf is
sincere about education of his members!
<snip>
> Fact is that the members learn nothing about art from these drum corps
> designers or the design judges. Ask them. (They say *thats a staff
thing*)
Other than BK, I'm not sure who actually learned anything about *dance*
this year from these visual staffs either!
> And who are the competitions for?
At least George saw the wisdom of inducting performers into the hall of
fame, although he suggested inducting whole corps and not individual
performers.
> As I see it this is the Berlin Wall. It will crash from its own
> corruption.
Or from societal forces involving the relative value of youth vs. the
age bracket most instructors are part of. When youth (i.e, marching
aged members) become more valued than 20something instructors, the
forces will become overwhelming.
> Give it and George a few more years.
I think that the forces will reach critical mass about 2004. I am also
sure that George will survive them.
> Ken Mazur
Vince Lamb
"Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of RAMD? The Pollmaster knows!"
mike_d...@my-deja.com
"Beckham, Rick [RICH1:2L24-M:EXCH]" <rbec...@americasm01.nt.com>
wrote:
>
> Symmetry, even asymmetry, is simple on a computer. Now take 128
> individuals and teach symmetry. That's not as easy as you imply. And
> I don't know if it was intentional, but tying symmetry with a
"front-and-
> center drumline" is disingenious at best.
>
>
How is it disingenious? A symmetrical drill, as written "in the day" did
call for a centered drumline. Surely you remember the "elevator drills"
drum lines marched.
Mike
Daniel O'Neal
> But to a serious artist(like Ken), it's about equivalent to a kazoo band.
<snort> "Serious artist," huh? What exactly makes one artist "serious" and
another not serious? Sheer arrogance?
> The point is not that the drill cannot be good without artistic study and
> credentials, but that people who don't really know what the hell perspective is
> and means shouldn't be describing drill with that term.
Just because someone doesn't have a degree in art doesn't mean that he or she can't
understand the meaning of the word "perspective." Besides, if it's good, who gives
a damn what words they use to describe it? (Besides Ken, I mean.)
Dan
johng...@my-deja.com
silve...@aol.com (SILVERDOTS) wrote:
<SNIP>
> Finally having heard enough visual bullshit, I asked
> them for their art credentials. They ran away. WGI DCI
> YEA all refuse to list their *designers* credentials
>
Doesn't Michael Ceasario have these credentials you are looking for AND
doesn't he teach at a College in upstate NY AND hasn't he worked on and
consulted for Broadway multiple times?
What sort of credentials should be required?
Vincent Van Gogh did not have an art degree and in fact he couldn't even
sell a painting, I suppose this means he had no talent.
BTW: I was involved with a lawsuit (won it) against a trained and
credentialed architect for design flaws. "Credentials" don't tell the
whole story.
John Grozny
Idontwantoknow
>
><snort> "Serious artist," huh? What exactly makes one artist "serious" and
>another not serious? Sheer arrogance?
I would define a serious artist as someone who spends most of their time on,
and/or makes their living from, the creation of legitimate works of art.
>Just because someone doesn't have a degree in art doesn't mean that he or she
>can't
>understand the meaning of the word "perspective."
That's one word; lots of people know what perspective means. No, you do not
have to have a degree in art to know what perspective means, but you sure as
hell can't claim to really understand all the artistic terms Ken is talking
about without a significant amount of study. That doesn't necessarily require a
degree, but how many judges and drill designers spend a lot of time studying
the composition and analyzation of art? Very few, I'd bet.
>Besides, if it's good, who gives
>a damn what words they use to describe it? (Besides Ken, I mean.)
>
It doesn't bother you that judges talking about perspective, negative space,
and all that other crap are full of shit? It bothers me. Obviously I'm not
freaked out about it, but it does make you wonder.
So far your arguments seem to be that Ken is arrogant, and that nobody really
cares about what Ken is bitching about. Both are without question, true, but
they don't refute what he has to say.
Alan
Alan
Sharcast2
>>Besides, if it's good, who gives
>>a damn what words they use to describe it? (Besides Ken, I mean.)
>>
>
>It doesn't bother you that judges talking about perspective, negative space,
>and all that other crap are full of shit? It bothers me. Obviously I'm not
>freaked out about it, but it does make you wonder.
>
Ok.. I have been away from the competitive aspect for a long time now.. What
the hell is negagtive space and positive space? And what the hell does THAT
have to do with 120 some odd bodies marching on a football field???
I must really be missing something..
Thank you for informing me.
Sharon
Beckham, Rick [RICH1:2L24-M:EXCH]
>
> Ken believes that people that have never studied or been trained in art, should
> not go around using artistic terms to describe their work. Doing so lends an
> artistic legitimacy that they are not qualified for.
And the fact that these terms are winding up in the sheets to base the scores,
outweighing the accomplishments of the performers. THAT'S KEN'S BEEF
IN A NUTSHELL.
Michael
idontwa...@gateway.net (Idontwantoknow) wrote:
<major snippage>
> (By the way, what is the fixation with "booster clubs"?
> >Never mind... I'm sure it's just because they are part of the great
> >unwashed masses that are not qualified to speak the word "art.")
>
> Gee, get a little more hyperbolic, please.
Okay, I'll try! Just trying to fit in with the other ranters here... :)
> Ken believes that people that have never studied or been trained in
art, should
> not go around using artistic terms to describe their work. Doing so
lends an
> artistic legitimacy that they are not qualified for.
Artistic "legitimacy?" Oh boy... Okay, so since I haven't gone to
medical school, I can't use terms like nauseated to describe how this
makes me feel.... :)
> Is that so unreasonable? Would you not laugh outright at people using
musical
> terms like timbre, blend, tone color, texture, etc. etc. to describe
their
> playing of Jingle Bells on a telephone?
Does the music played on a telephone have timbre, blend, tone color,
texture, etc., etc.? I think so, as does any sound. If one were going
to describe music played on a telephone (why? I don't know) perhaps
they should use terms like "them neat noises made on them thar number
buttons" unless they have music degree... :)
> That's not to say that playing music on a telephone is pathetic or not
> entertaining (okay, so it's not, but the fact that it doesn't have
artistic
> merit doesn't make it unentertaining). Drum corps visual is
entertaining, and
> much more mature than it used to be. But to a serious artist(like
Ken), it's
> about equivalent to a kazoo band.
Then "serious artists like Ken" would probably not want to waste their
precious time obsessing over it.
> Every time I think I've seen the worst representation of pure
sophistry as
> logic on RAMD, it gets topped.
Wait! I can top that! Just give me a minute... :)
> In no way did Ken ever say anything like that.
> Ken did not say that someone who is untrained cannot produce great
works of
> art.
Ummm... nor did I say he said that...
Ken: "No, if you dont have the credentials stop trying to manipulate
booster clubs who dont know the activity into believing you have the
talent or can *teach* art."
Me: "If you analyze the above statement, it implies that talent is
worthless without "credentials", or extrapolated, that credentials are
the true measure of relative worth and talent is irrelevant, or at
best, incidental.
> Rather he said, and has said, that the use of art terms that are often
> used to refer to drill requires artistic study.
Not this time.... Again....
Ken: "No, if you dont have the ***credentials*** stop trying to
manipulate booster clubs who dont know the activity into believing you
have the ***talent*** or can *teach* art."
But back to YOUR point....
Soooo.... If I have not "studied", let's say.... engineering, that
there is no way that I can understand how a fulcrum works and therefore
should not use the term in describing how I am going to pry my son's
butt off the couch.... right?
> Great music can be performed by people who know very little about the
> construction and analyzation of music, but if one of those amazing
talents
> starts discussing in depth theory without ever spending any time
studying it,
> I'm gonna laugh at him.
Frankly, I'd be more inclined to focus on the great music, but to each
his/her own.... :::shrug:::
> The point is not that the drill cannot be good without
> artistic study and credentials, but that people who don't really know
what the
> hell perspective is and means shouldn't be describing drill with that
term.
*IF* the aforementioned people actually do not know what perspective
means, then I agree with you. Simply put, I don't
believe "crendentials" are a measure of one's knowledge and therefore
should not dictate what a person can or cannot use in describing
whatever it is they do. But that's just me.... and I could be
wrong... :::shrug:::
Regards,
Michael Terry
Michael
>"Credentials" don't tell the whole story.
....heh....
Sharcast2
Sharon
James C. Nevermann
> Ok.. I have been away from the competitive aspect for a long time now.. What
I know it primarily as a graphic design/fine art term.
A familiar example is the optical illusion of two profiled/silhouetted
human heads facing each other. Looking at it you gradually begin to
see not only the two heads, but --equally prominent-- also the outline
of a stylish vase or gobblet, made up from the profiles. The words
`positive' and `negative' in this example refer to the heads [perhaps
shown in solid black, though any color will work] and the vase
[perhaps in solid white]. The one image occupies a space `positive' to
the others `negative'.
And what the hell does THAT
> have to do with 120 some odd bodies marching on a football field???
In marching, the same positive/negative spacial/visual relationships
exist, and may thus be used as convenient, general terms for
describing forms in relation to those in or around them in which other
forms appear.
--
Jim Nevermann [usual disclaimers]
Frank Schoenbach
As Ron Allard would say..... I have a headache
Idontwantoknow
>
>Okay, I'll try! Just trying to fit in with the other ranters here... :)
>
Believe me, that's not something to be strived for ;)
>Artistic "legitimacy?" Oh boy... Okay, so since I haven't gone to
>medical school, I can't use terms like nauseated to describe how this
>makes me feel.... :)
>
Sure you can, but if you start telling me exactly what processes lead to that
nausea, you'll probly be full of shit ;)
>Does the music played on a telephone have timbre, blend, tone color,
>texture, etc., etc.? I think so, as does any sound. If one were going
>to describe music played on a telephone (why? I don't know) perhaps
>they should use terms like "them neat noises made on them thar number
>buttons" unless they have music degree... :)
What is this obsession with degrees? Ken never mentioned having to have a
degree in art. He's merely looking for *something* to indicate that judges who
talk about positive and negative space, etc. etc. actually know what the hell
they're talking about.
Now whether he really wants that info, or is just having a grand old time
grinding his ax down to rusty stick, is an altogether more difficult question
;)
>> That's not to say that playing music on a telephone is pathetic or not
>> entertaining (okay, so it's not, but the fact that it doesn't have
>artistic
>> merit doesn't make it unentertaining). Drum corps visual is
>entertaining, and
>> much more mature than it used to be. But to a serious artist(like
>Ken), it's
>> about equivalent to a kazoo band.
>
>Then "serious artists like Ken" would probably not want to waste their
>precious time obsessing over it.
Ken's an obsessive guy. Just about everything he does shows a tendency for
almost compulsive behavior.
(Now watch Mike Siglow blow me out of the water for calling somebody compulsive
without knowing what it means ;) )
>> Every time I think I've seen the worst representation of pure
>sophistry as
>> logic on RAMD, it gets topped.
>
>Wait! I can top that! Just give me a minute... :)
>
>> In no way did Ken ever say anything like that.
>> Ken did not say that someone who is untrained cannot produce great
>works of
>> art.
>
>Ummm... nor did I say he said that...
>Ken: "No, if you dont have the credentials stop trying to manipulate
>booster clubs who dont know the activity into believing you have the
>talent or can *teach* art."
>
>Me: "If you analyze the above statement, it implies that talent is
>worthless without "credentials", or extrapolated, that credentials are
>the true measure of relative worth and talent is irrelevant, or at
>best, incidental.
>
>> Rather he said, and has said, that the use of art terms that are often
>> used to refer to drill requires artistic study.
>
>Not this time.... Again....
Well, Ken's ravings sometimes get a little unfocused. That's the point he's
tried to make, when seperated from his fanatical dislike of George Hopkins, the
whole competition vs. education debate, and that wackiness about liberals
destroying the world.
(I'm sure there's more than a few RAMDers who'd back him up on that, though.)
>But back to YOUR point....
>
>Soooo.... If I have not "studied", let's say.... engineering, that
>there is no way that I can understand how a fulcrum works and therefore
>should not use the term in describing how I am going to pry my son's
>butt off the couch.... right?
Sure you can use it to describe that. Would it hold water if you were a judge
using it as a justification for a score? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't.
Regardless, credentials doesn't mean a degree....there are plenty of people
who's artistic credentials Ken would probably respect who don't have degrees,
or have degrees in something different.
>> Great music can be performed by people who know very little about the
>> construction and analyzation of music, but if one of those amazing
>talents
>> starts discussing in depth theory without ever spending any time
>studying it,
>> I'm gonna laugh at him.
>
>Frankly, I'd be more inclined to focus on the great music, but to each
>his/her own.... :::shrug:::
>
>> The point is not that the drill cannot be good without
>> artistic study and credentials, but that people who don't really know
>what the
>> hell perspective is and means shouldn't be describing drill with that
>term.
>
>*IF* the aforementioned people actually do not know what perspective
>means, then I agree with you. Simply put, I don't
>believe "crendentials" are a measure of one's knowledge and therefore
>should not dictate what a person can or cannot use in describing
>whatever it is they do.
Do you *really* believe that judges and visual designers sit at home and study
art analyzation? Maybe I'm just not talking to the right people, but the ones I
know certainly don't.
> But that's just me.... and I could be
>wrong... :::shrug:::
Keep in mind, I don't necessarily agree with any of this stuff. I just think
that some of what Ken has to say actually has a little merit, and it bears
clarification. You have to read Ken's stuff and talk to him for quite a while
before you really understand what he's getting at. I'm sure he doesn't
appreciate me doing it, but Ken really does need a translator ;)
Alan
>Regards,
>Michael Terry
Vince Lamb
Has anyone noticed that I (or you, but you wouldn't do as good a job :-)
could substitute Stuart Rice's name for Ken Mazur's, change only the
few lines about the nature of their obsessions, and every one of Alans'
comments would ring every bit as true!
BTW, I've acted as translator for both Stuart and Ken over the years.
Whenever I do, their views gain headway.
Yeah, I'm being arrogant, but it's all true!
Vince Lamb
RAMD Pollmaster and gRAMDies MC
"Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of RAMD? The Pollmaster knows!"
P.S. Alan, good work! With you doing this, I don't need to translate
for Ken. If you keep it up, there is a nomination for "Voice of
Reason" with your name on it!
In article <20000824210252...@ng-bd1.news.gateway.net>,
Michael Cahill
Michael wrote:
> > I know the diff and am telling everyone its bullshit.
>
> One man's bullshit is another man's chocolate cake. Just because
> you "know the difference" doesn't make your opinion any more valid
> than another... regardless of your "credentials."
Bzzzzzzzzt.
While we all have opinions, some are more valid or supported
than others.
If someone [in this instance Ken] has the training and knowledge
to understand and use the terminology correctly, then their opinion
is more valid.
Without some form of education/experience in their
correct use/application, the art terms thrown about in
the activity are simply buzzwords.
> Might as well eat the cake or starve on the bullshit, because
> your ranting got old a long time ago.
If his ranting is old it's because no rebuttals of substance are
offered for many of his main points. Your response for example,
doesn't offer rebuttal, instead it ignores the points and attempts
to discredit the author of those points.
If his points have no substance, then why do so many of you
freak out when they are raised?
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Michael Cahill
Daniel O'Neal wrote:
>
> Idontwantoknow wrote:
>
> > But to a serious artist(like Ken), it's about equivalent to a kazoo band.
>
> <snort> "Serious artist," huh? What exactly makes one artist "serious" and
> another not serious? Sheer arrogance?
Perhaps busting one's ass at creating architectural drawings?
You haven't seen ONE pencil stroke of his but you can post crap
like this? Quite fair.
> Just because someone doesn't have a degree in art doesn't
> mean that he or she can't understand the meaning of the word
> "perspective."
True.
Also - just using it in conversation or on sheets doesn't mean
the meaning and purpose are understood or correct.
> Besides, if it's good, who gives a damn what words they
> use to describe it? (Besides Ken, I mean.)
Well, school boards and any real educator I would think.
Remember, Ken isn't the guy who wants the education
dollars.
But yeah, who cares if you really understand what you're
talking about - just spew whatever cool word you heard
someone else use. Actual knowledge is so passé.
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Michael Cahill
Michael wrote:
> Ken: "No, if you dont have the credentials stop trying to manipulate
> booster clubs who dont know the activity into believing you have the
> talent or can *teach* art."
>
> Me: "If you analyze the above statement, it implies that talent is
> worthless without "credentials", or extrapolated, that credentials are
> the true measure of relative worth and talent is irrelevant, or at
> best, incidental.
That's one way to interpret it.
Unfortunately it's incorrect in this instance. He's not saying
you HAVE to have a degree - just the knowledge to back up
the terminology.
Why this is such an outlandish idea to you is beyond me.
Perhaps "skill/knowledge" replacing "credentials" would clear this up?
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Scott Williams
> Ken's an obsessive guy. Just about everything he does shows a tendency
for
> almost compulsive behavior.
There are medications for that. :)
--
Scott W. Williams
'92 SCV
'90 VK
'86-'89 RMM