Interview with Philip Burton (Visual Designer for '93 Star)
Shaun P. Hickson
of Indiana in 1993. The format of the interview was such that I just
emailed him a bunch of questions and he responded to them. I have edited
this in no way shape or form. Philip has asked me to invite any of you who
are interested in disucussing any of these issues further to email him at
dynog...@aol.com. If you want him to see a response to this, you will
need to email it to him, as he does not read RAMD. I hope you all find this
interesting. I apologize for the html encoding, but I just think it will
make it much more readable.
Shaun Hickson
What is your professional background?
Taught high school, college and conservatory (Mason Gross School of the
Arts-Rutgers, Mannes College of Music) in theater; founded the movement
program for the Dalcroze School of Music at Juilliard; worked in television
and theater for 25 years in New York. Co-founded Actors Movement Studio and
founded the Expressive Movement Institute in New York which specializes in
studying non-dance movement expression and trains and produces programs for
actors and singers. I particularly enjoy designing for BOA high school
programs, and have found these just as gratifying as drum corps.
How were you introduced to drum corps?
In the 70's, I saw finals broadcasts late nights on TV while suffering
insomnia. This made my insomnia worse as I found it wonderfully exciting
and entertaining.
How did you start teaching for drum corps?
I wrote George Hopkins a letter in 1988 saying that, as a movement
specialist, I would find it interesting to visit with him about my possible
contributions to his program. Cadets consistently impressed me as a
superior unit year after year. Hopkins, George Zingale and Mark Sylvester
attended a lecture demos in my New York studio. Hopkins later invited me to
do a few teaching gigs at winter camps. He also had me contribute
expressive movement sequences to Cadets' shows in the late 80's and early 90
's. It was George Hopkins who brought me to drum corps, so you can either
blame or credit him for that. It was George as well who recommended that I
address the DCI judges and consult on their issues.
Who brought you to Star in 93? What was your role with them? Were you
apprehensive about having a larger role than you had in the past?
Jim Mason and Bill Cook offered an aggressive invitation. I was officially
named the Visual Director. That meant that all color, line and form was
either designed or coordinated by me. However, because I felt an outsider
to drum corps, I relied on a strong collaboration with the drill writer Jon
Vanderkolf who provided tremendous support and energy. We were a closely
bound team.
Why was there so much expressive movement in Star's '93 show?
The musical arrangement by Jim Prime offered extended sections where not
everyone was playing. It was common sense that there were 3 choices when
not playing: stand still, march or move. The music dictated what I chose
for the movement ensembles, and it was the musical arrangement that powered
the movement choices. I was very familiar with the Barber Medea and I had
directed the play in 1980 in New York for Signature Theater Company. I also
knew Martha Graham's Cave of the Heart, the dance piece done to the Barber
music. I never liked the music that much and Martha's dance piece was
uninteresting to me. It had Nagucci set and prop pieces that were beautiful
as sculpture and cumbersome as dance equipment. So I was not head over
heels in love with the musical choice from the beginning. Consequently, the
dynography (movement) book was pure original creation.
There was no plan to do something "experimental" or "new" or "different."
We simply chose the music, and after some earnest meetings we agreed that we
were more interested in doing what we were driven to do musically rather
than pander to tradition. Once that was behind us, we simply got on with
the business of interpreting a piece of music on a football field with all
its natural limitations. It was pure drum corps in process because that's
the only thing the staff understood. I was of value in that my background
was in theater, opera and play production, and this gave me a fresh
contribution to an otherwise old usual way of working.
Mason was always searching for a staff that could find him a different
approach from year to year. This was what he wanted Star's signature to be.
That unpredictable flexible approach would have served them well had they
stayed in DCI. No telling what they would be producing by now.
There was also this thing with me that finally after struggling with Cadets,
putting in a little bit here and a little bit there, I could do a full out
design and put in all the movement that the piece needed. It was not that
Cadets did not want my work, it was just that their style seldom needed my
contributions, and my "outsider" status never let me be accepted with Cadets
staff members as a real player.
The Star kids overlooked my newness and just did full out exactly what I
told them to do; they trusted me. Vanderkolff and Prime were also very
sensitive and attentive to the style that was emerging in the program, and
both supported me 100%. Without them, the piece would never have achieved
its place in DCI mythology.
No one was fooling himself: it was the movement that put the distinctive
mark on the program, and although the music lacked the melodic payoff that
traditional drum corps demands, no one could argue that the show was
extremely well executed by traditional drum corps standards. My fear all
season was that Star would be punished for staging so much movement. This
was proved by the fact that the visual score from night to night was
sometimes high and other times the bottom would drop out. So I always sat
in the stands alone, brooding and defensive. I never attended a critique.
I started two separate fights with wisecracking fans that insulted our
efforts. I hated that summer for that.
The 9-foot poles and double sticks were not so innovative as equipment goes,
but they forced Billy Jurberg and Joyce Landers (the guard instructors) to
explore an innovative new movement vocabulary that had to be created through
discovery. Reluctant at first, discover it, they did.
The poles and the double sticks I'm told are purported by Bill Cook to have
been Jim Mason's idea, in fact it was mine. I had used these props in my
movement company in 1978 when Aaron Copland invited me to create movement
pieces for a concert of his experimental computer music. With Jon's support
we won the battle of the new equipment and Billy created wonderful things.
I spent the entire tour painting and re-painting the poles to arrive at an
almond color to compliment the butter cream uniforms.
It was the distorted sculpture at the opening of the show that caused the
most resistance. I was given only one hour to teach it, and Mason would not
approve the big metal triangles until weeks into tour. Detractors
criticized us for padding our visual program late into the season, but in
truth, I decided on the triangles even before the first drill sheet was
finished. I felt the opening needed to say "distortion", "conflict",
"dissonance", "this is not your father's typical drum corps show" right out
of the blocks. The first moments as exposition visually are always
important to me to signal the audience with clues as to what they are about
to see. I had real resistance from the staff getting this installed. The
triangles actually formed a star, but no one knew this but us. It wasn't
important. The nature of the opening tableau was important.
Brass, percussion, drill, guard, all elements were done with first rate
execution, but the movement continued to set us apart, made us distinctive.
Created the buzz, so to speak. Musician as "Moveician" was fully realized
in this show and never surpassed until (in my opinion) the extraordinary
programs by Blue Knights and Santa Clara last season.
But the "surpassing" idea wanes when I look at programs by Cavilers, Cadets,
Devils, Madison, Phantom and others, because the quality continues to go
higher and higher each year. That's why I don't understand the fixation
many have with the Star '93 show. It was certainly not my best work, and
since I've been designing band shows since 1995, if someone gave me another
chance, I could set another design benchmark. Mind you, it wouldn't
necessarily look anything like '93. Music must be served!
Many fans of traditional drum and bugle corps feel that Star '93 was the end
of true drum corps. Philip, did you kill drum corps?
Yes.
What would you say to those who feel that visual design has become too
important a part of the judging process, and that we've gotten away from our
roots - kids competing against kids, with excellence determining the winner?
I'm not sure how to answer that. I was always under the impression that
excellence did indeed determine the winner. These critics are usually
championing a single corps, or they have a personal agenda along with a chip
on their shoulder; whereas, I love all of the corps and the variety of
styles. I really do. Phantom Regiment was my favorite program in '93.
Design is not as important as those critics charge, because if it were,
there would be a judging component for it. There should be, and one day
maybe there will be. If this happens, what you see on the field from year
to year will have more variety and logic, and we'll all be glad for it.
Most corps right across the board generally have poor design plans and
procedures, and no judging criteria is in place to insist on better
competence.
Designs continuously escape back into easy, safe molds, those traditional
havens for cranking out the same or nearly the same thing year after year.
Visual designers are not untalented, but they tend to dive at choices too
quickly, too soon; they wind up imitating each other or repeating
themselves. Only every 4 to 6 seasons does someone do something that rocks
us by its innovation. Extraordinary new things are easier to produce than
one might think, but visual designers seldom go far enough early enough to
spawn a distinctive seed idea before settling for a traditional safety net.
To me, forging new traditions has always been more exciting than upholding
old ones. If you're really a traditionalist and believe that drum corps was
all it could be in 1992, and since that time a bunch of highfalutin new
stuff has killed it, then I say you're a fool. The same old stuff has been
on display for the last 10 years. Louder, faster, but mostly the same
things. And the quality has risen musically.
I think innovation is the savior of the activity, not its executor. It
beats the hell out of doing the dishes night after night.
Quality has to stand for something, but at the same time, good design can
create a context in which a program can find more distinction, more success
while giving us variety and delightful new experiences each season. This
should disturb no traditional drum corps value.
Saying design is too important is like saying brass is too important or
percussion is too important. The music is the most important thing, but
because it is visually interpreted rather than played as a concert, the
design then must become very important. If it does not, were consigned to
years of the same old stuff. Would you settle for going to drum corps shows
blindfolded?
Frankly, if design was as important as your question implies, and if designs
were being judged comprehensively, few corps would break 90 points by
finals. Without meaning to be unkind, I invite anyone to read the program
descriptions on the corps' own web sites. Then when you see their
performances, ask yourself: "Is what they say they are doing really what
they're presenting?"
Right now, there are significant differences in the visual descriptions of
my favorite corps' web sites. One promises a program that I consider
impossible to do in 11 minutes on a football field. Another approaches the
performance of the music by dissecting the motives of the composer himself.
It will be interesting to see how successful they are with respect to doing
what they 'say' they are doing.
The secret to good design is in laying out a series of visual images with a
plan that is doable, practical and honest. Less is usually more when
describing a metaphor for a program. Beware the use of the word
"non-literal" in these descriptions. It means, "we know we cannot possibly
do what we say we are doing, but we're going to tell you we're doing it just
the same." "And, we're going to tell our kids we are doing it as well.
They're just kids and they don't know the difference, so it won't matter."
This is a case of not only blowing smoke up the reader's ______ but also
blowing it up their own and their corps' ______.
Carolina Crown is particularly impressive this year: their Mask of Zorro
music is staged with that Latinesque sense of nobility and style. It is
beautifully evident in the consistency of the guard. Just lovely. I'm
speaking of the unity of design and style, not high brass, or high
percussion or high ideas; I'm just saying that for what it professes to do,
Crown is extremely clear and successful. It says right in their description
on the web site: look for subtle Spanish motifs throughout the eleven-minute
production . . . and that's exactly what they deliver visually. This should
rate for more than is generally credited. It's important to note the
simplicity of this description. Crossmen also nail their description and
deliver exactly what they say they will.
One of my favorites, the Cavilers, is consistently strong with creating a
style and developing it fully. Last year was unbelievable. [I haven't seen
them yet this year.] This year they promise ". . .a visual ride over the
Niagara River capturing the raw power and magnificence of the water and the
diversity of the shores and tourist areas . . ." This I can't wait to see.
What will they do visually do you think? How will they portray the power
and magnificence of water on a football field, and how will the 'diverse
tourist areas' be staged? I'm not being cynical, I love Cavies, but I'm
saying that a description of this type however detailed cannot be delivered
by marching, waving flags and tossing rifles. A better description could
help. Just because you write it does not mean it can be expressed visually
if you stick to traditional drum corps lines of expression. Expression
followed by perception is not automatic. Don't worry, whatever their
description, the program will be a winner. I just wonder if they will be
able to express what they say they are expressing in this description. I'll
be the first to applaud it if they succeed or surpass it.
Madison Scouts description has only one flaw: the word "innovative." They
will not be innovative. They will be what they always are: powerful,
musically perfect and stoic. You know exactly what you're going to get
before they take the field, but, my god, it's like rediscovering the power
and beauty of drum corps itself every time you see them. Now if they get
'innovative' I WILL be disappointed.
Santa Clara promises to take several new steps with "inventive visual
design" into the 21st Century. Cadets promise to show us 2 decades in 2
minutes of living. (They may by finals, but they haven't yet.) Blue Devils
and Blue Knights both call the segments of their programs "productions" and
both descriptions stay very close to the musical intent of the composers or
the performance of music in each segment. After reading Phantom's
description 5 times, I still don't understand what they're proposing
visually.
I've designed several high school band programs, and some are not right for
any expressive movement. Some are abstract, and some have extensive story
and scenic plans. This year a South Carolina school is doing music I
interpret as abstract, yet the whole program is a series of dreams that is
expressed using a huge sleeping head partially submerged into the field out
of which most equipment will be introduced. Another school in Georgia is
doing space music, and I've designed all ancient Egyptian images that
transform into futuristic designs. They wanted to stage Star Wars, but the
ancient images converted to futuristic images will give them something to DO
and something for the audience to understand.
Where does all this comes from, my variety? No. It comes from the music.
Always the music. It's been very gratifying designing for bands, but again,
my designs must be of a nature that can be filled out and expressed
successfully according to the music. The music determines the design. The
music determines the style. If anyone is interested in sampling what I do
and how I do it, I'm happy to send copies of some of these design books that
illustrate the process.
What are your most favorite and least favorite aspects of drum corps?
My favorite aspect is the kids and their performances.
My least favorite are the audiences at the shows.
Who are the past, current and future designers whom you most admire?
Past: George Zingali, Steve Brubaker
Past, Current and Future: Michael Cesario, Myron Rosander, Rob Billings
Future: Shaun Hickson of Knight Storm.
Lance
This guy is honest and it was great to read from someone with
such credentials. The fact that the guy worked with Aaron
Copland alone makes me believe in what he is saying.
Thanks for the insight, Mr. Burton. And thanks for asking the
?'s, Mr. Hickson. Great reading.
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Before you buy.
Hoppynj
Thanks ..
ULMDr...@juno.com
hop...@aol.com (Hoppynj) wrote:
> I found this to be most interesting and most honest ...
>
> Thanks ..
>
>
One of the best things I have ever encountered on RAMD. Thank you.
Smahan2012
>Phantom Regiment was my favorite program in '93.
This was extraordinary reading on all levels and how many times do you hear one
of the creators of a Corps program admit his favorite program of that same year
belonged to another Corps.
Thanks to all involved.
Jjg5150
Chicago this past winter. He was insightful and inspiring, thank you for
putting this on newsgroups.
John Gillick
Raiders Perc Arranger/Caption Head
JWess
was going on in the Star of Indiana during that fabled summer of 1993.
Whether you loved that show, or hated it, and there really seems to be no
"in between," that show really provided a watershed moment in drum corps
history. Many of today's visual designers look to Mr. Burton's work and can
either ignore it, or emulate it. Either route is fine, and differing
opinions keep the activity from becoming overly homogenized.
My only concern is that Mr. Burton's views of the paying audience don't
become the norm among visual designers in this wonderful activity.
> What are your most favorite and least favorite aspects of drum corps?
>
> My favorite aspect is the kids and their performances.
> My least favorite are the audiences at the shows.
Thanks for the post.
Joel Wessman
Madison Scouts 96, 97
Sharcast2
>become the norm among visual designers in this wonderful activity.
>
>
>> What are your most favorite and least favorite aspects of drum corps?
>>
>> My favorite aspect is the kids and their performances.
>> My least favorite are the audiences at the shows.
>
>
>Thanks for the post.
>
>Joel Wessman
>Madison Scouts 96, 97
>
Thank you, Mr Joel Wessman.
I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this thread but you prompted me to.
I am sick and tired of people telling me (a paying customer and former
competitor) how "I" (in a generic sense not literally) don't know crap about
what "I" am watching on a football field.
"I" may not have a degree or maybe "I" am not the artistic type, but "I"
certainly know what works and what doesn't. There is such a thing as
experience. Sometimes that is worth much more than any degree, etc.
I wish not to put down what Mr Burton has to say, but then again, "I", as a
paying customer I:E: audience member totally felt like "I" was being put down.
I certainly hope all Visual Designers don't feel like Mr Burton does.
Sharon
Neowill
I think that you are assuming too much. All Mr. Burton said was the following,
"My least favorite aspect of drum corps is the audience at the shows." How do
you know what it is specifically he doesn't like about the audience. Mr.
Burton never said that is problem with the audience is that "they" aren't
educated and are unable to understand a sophisticated program. You assume
that. From what I can see, all Mr. Burton said was that the audience is the
least favorite part of the activity for him. Maybe he doesn't like the rude
comments that are bantered around the different cliques in the audience about
various programs. Maybe he doesn't like going to a show with audience members
walking around in the stands during a performance. Maybe he doesn't like
audience members screaming "Way to go Johnny," during a lush, beautiful moment
just to be heard a recording. The reasons could go on and on . . . I truly
don't think that the intent of Mr. Burton's statement was to "put you down" for
not understanding the high level of sophistication in some programs.
William
Sharcast2
William:
I thought you were emailing me specifically on this issue. I see now that you
also posted to RAMD. My thoughts stand even though I won't repost to RAMD.
Sharon